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Transcript: The 11th Hour with Brian Williams, 11/4/21

Guests: Sam Stein, Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Joyce Vance, Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, Mark McKinnon, Vin Gupta

Summary

Federal judge skeptical of Trump`s efforts to block release of presidential documents. The district attorney for Manhattan has convened a grand jury in a case looking into the Trump Organization`s finances. The Justice Department is suing Texas over new voting restrictions that the federal government says will disenfranchise eligible voters and violate federal voting rights law. Glenn Youngkin tapped into parents` pandemic-era frustrations on his way to winning the Virginia governorship.

Transcript

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: We should add in fairness. Your U.S. senate is leaving on a 10-day break and the House is out next week as well. So you get the urgency that has gripped Washington.

On another front that committee investigating the 1/6 insurrection, Donald Trump`s attempts to keep documents related to that day, private and away from that committee appear to be increasingly futile. The deadline to handover about 770 pages of it is next Friday. And it seems a federal judge is reluctant to intervene here.

Trump`s attorneys argue today there was no legislative purpose to which Tanya Chutkan federal judge replied quote, are you really saying the President`s notes talking points and records of telephone conversations on January 6 have no bearing on the investigation? These are about who the President was talking to as people were breaking windows and climbing into the Capitol.

So read into that what you will we`re also getting a better idea today of the sheer scope of that committee`s work. 20 new subpoenas are about to be handed out apparently. Chairman Bennie Thompson tonight offering few clues as to who they`re going to call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s in this next batch? Like what kind of --

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Well, some of the people that have been written about, some of the people who haven`t been written about ,you know, we`re just doing our body of work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Among those expected to be served, as they say and we`ve said this many times before Trump`s Attorney John Eastman. He is the Trump friendly lawyer who argued Vice President Mike Pence indeed have the authority to overturn the 2020 presidential election and then blamed him for the attack on the Capitol when he didn`t.

Vice Chair of the Committee Liz Cheney also confirms to NBC News the Committee has already interviewed over 150 people, not among them, however, his close Trump ally, Steve Bannon, who the House found in contempt two weeks ago for defying the subpoena. It`s now up to the Attorney General Merrick Garland to decide what happens next. And so far he`s not saying.

Also tonight, NBC News confirming a story first reported by The Washington Post that the Manhattan DA has convened a second grand jury to investigate the Trump Organization.

The Post puts it this way. One person familiar with the matter said the second grand jury was expected to examine how former President Donald Trump`s company valued its assets, its assets. Forgive me. The previous Grand Jury resulted in felony indictments against two Trump companies and his longtime chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg.

And as we mentioned, we have some movement on the President`s economic plan tonight. President`s been on the phone today with undecideds but we`ve said that before. Tonight, there`s word that House members are now planning to vote on both the infrastructure legislation and the financial bill tomorrow. Democrats will likely have to go it alone on the so called human infrastructure bill since there are still no Republican votes for it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): This bill, this socialist spending bill they may vote on tonight is pouring gasoline on inflation to any Democrat who`s claims to be a moderate. If you vote for the socialist spending package tonight, you`re going to get your ass beat and you deserve it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: And while the voting rights portion of Biden`s agenda remains completely stalled in Congress, the Justice Department intervening to try to stop some of the worst and most severe voting restrictions in our country. And a lawsuit filed today DOJ is arguing the new Texas law is unconstitutional, saying it violates the voting and Civil Rights Acts. We`ll have more on that a bit later.

And in the COVID fight the President making good on the vaccine mandates he announced back in September. The administration today setting a January 4 deadline for private businesses to comply, that covers about 84 million Americans. Private employers with over 100 workers will need to make sure their employees are vaccinated or else be tested weekly.

Notably employers are not required to foot the bill for those tests. We`ll have more in our discussion on this later on in the broadcast.

But with that, let`s bring in our starting line on this Thursday night. Sam Stein, veteran journalist, White House editor at politico, Kimberly Atkins Stohr, previously both WBUR in the Boston Herald, now a member of The Boston Globe Editorial Board and former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. She and Kimberly makeup exactly half the team that hosts the podcast Sisters in Law along with Jill Wine Banks, and Barbara McQuade. Good evening and welcome to you all.

Joyce, counselor indeed, I`d like to begin with you. 20 subpoenas going out from the 1/6 committee who should be nervous tonight?

[23:05:09]

JOYCE VANCE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: You know, everybody should be nervous, Brian, because one thing this committee has shown with the pace of its work is that they are going full steam ahead. They have fleshed out the committee staff. They have people who, for instance, are experienced with financial investigations. So some of the people that they`ve interviewed are probably people whose names we heard -- have heard, but others may well be people who are behind the scenes, people who understand for instance, how money moves, that funded bringing people to Washington for these events. It`s clear that the committee is no holds barred at this point.

WILLIAMS: Sam, this big House vote tomorrow, give you -- give us please for our viewers a preview and give us some real world expectations.

SAM STEIN, POLITICO WHITE HOUSE EDITOR: So we`ve been down this road twice before, where it looked like there was going to be a vote on the physical infrastructure bill only for the House to delay it. This one feels a bit different. They have been working lawmakers aggressively not just for the physical infrastructure bill. But for the human infrastructure bill, the massive social and climate spending package that they put together, and all indications from my sources up on the hill and those who are following it suggests that by tomorrow, they should have the 218 votes they need for both those agenda items.

What that means is that the House clears it, it goes to the Senate where they face a while the infrastructure bill is going to be passed. But the human infrastructure bill faces a very uncertain fate because a lot of the components that they had to add into this bill in order to get those 280 votes, things like paid medical leave, for instance, they are not going to get the 50 Senate Democratic votes in the Senate, they may not survive the parliamentarians decision that they actually can apply by reconciliation rules. So, it`s one major step forward, that likely is coming tomorrow, but it`s not the end of the road.

WILLIAMS: I feared you were going to say that. Hey, Kimberly, how damning must the documents be over 700 pages of them for Donald Trump to go to court to try to block the committee from seeing them and taking possession?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, clearly they`re getting to what the committee is trying to find out. And that is one reason that Donald Trump is fighting it. Also keep in mind, it may not even have as much to do with the fact of what is in each actual document than the fact that Donald Trump really wants to delay this entire process. That is one thing that the judge or scolded the former president side for seemingly trying to do to drag out with his executive privilege argument that they must know that at least the attorneys must know, a hold no water.

But it seems pretty clear, especially with the number of witnesses that the committee has already investigated that this is going to be a full some thorough examination of the events that led up to January 6. So I think the stalling tactics can only last for so long, especially given the way that the judge reacted to it.

WILLIAMS: Joyce, back to the judge`s comments, what meaning did you attach to her words, when federal judges appointed for life speak? It`s important that we pay attention. And also, if I can a second part, what do you make of the importance of a second New York grand jury?

VANCE: Well, I think the judge was very clear when she spoke in this case, indicating that ultimately, there was a balancing test that had to happen in this case, you know, the issue, although it`s an issue that`s never been decided before with a former president and a current president.

The point that was made by DOJ lawyers was that the issues were neither novel nor difficult. And the judge seemed to handle them in that manner, saying that she would act expeditiously. I think we`ll hear a ruling from her shortly approving turnover of most, if not all of these documents.

The New York situation is interesting as well, Brian, but I wouldn`t read too much into it. Grand juries in the state system in New York don`t last for the longer terms that we`re used to in the federal system. And it`s a little bit quirky, or when you try to extend those grand juries. You know, normally if you have a grand jury that`s hearing an investigative case, and their time expires as a federal prosecutor, you just routinely expend their time extend their time.

As a state prosecutor, the grand jury is involved in that decision. And they don`t always want to continue to sit so this looks like it`s just a rather routine procedural mechanism where a new Grand Jury is being brought on board to continue the work of a previous distinct grand jury.

[23:10:02]

WILLIAMS: Sam Stein leave it to the New York Post. Easily the story of the night is their headline, activist swarm Joe Manchin`s Maserati as he tries to leave parking garage. Another story about the acting president, Joe Manchin apparently walked from his motor yacht to the Maserati staying on brand for a West Virginia Senator, is he just an immovable problem for the rest of the Democratic Party?

STEIN: Hardly, hardly. He`s moved. He`s moved incrementally, but he`s moved. Remember he had a line that was that he`s not going to accept anything over $1.5 trillion. He`s now $1.75 trillion. Obviously, that`s nowhere close to where the party was. But it is a sign of movement. He has been open to adding certain provisions back into the legislative language. But he`s been very firm on not allowing things like paid leave in there.

Ultimately, the people we talked to on the hill, think that he is going to be there at the end that a lot of this is theatrics, that this is sort of the process that Manchin works by. I think the big miscalculation early on was that he would respond to threats, protesters like that, and the holding of hostage of the physical infrastructure bill by the House, that he wanted that bill so bad that he would make some sort of agreement on the human infrastructure bill.

Those who know Joe Manchin say that just not how he operates. He`s not going to be pushed or bullied into doing something like that. And he actually does take a bit of pride in the idea that he is a negotiator of good faith.

Now will he come through at the end? Obviously, people on the Democratic side are nervous that ultimately he`ll flip. But look, Tuesday happened Virginia, New Jersey, could have given him the signal to say, I`m done with this. No more negotiations. The party`s gone way too far in one direction. I need to drag it back the other. He did not do that. He just reiterated his position. A lot of Democrats interpreted that as a positive sign for the fate of the Build Back Better agenda.

WILLIAMS: Of course, Sam, it`ll be tough to get anything through the Senate with members of the Senate out of town on a richly deserved 10-day break.

STEIN: Yeah, I wish I had the same vacation schedules that member of the Senate do. They seem to be out for a fair bit of time. But look, I think you hit a very interesting point, which is that this process, everyone wanted this process to be done. End of August, end of September, end of October. It`s not going to get done until at the earliest around Thanksgiving. And even that seems optimistic. The House is going to pass it bill, the Senate is going to take it. They`re going to discard measures. They`re going to change in other ways. And then they got to merge those things if it indeed passes the Senate. And you`re going to go back and forth. And ultimately, we`re looking at something closer to December, you could end up going into 2022, which is what Joe Manchin has already always said he wants to do.

WILLIAMS: Kim, which would do more to lift up Biden`s fortunes and sagging poll numbers, both bills signed, sealed delivered law of the land or doing something about gasoline prices, which they seem to have discovered this week.

STOHR: Yes, you know, I think these bills are so far overdue. These are things measures coming out of a pandemic that voters wanted. They wanted paid leave. They wanted economic health -- economic help to get over this last slump in the economy. So I think passing the build back better if voting rights is not on the table at the moment, which it isn`t, is probably the most important thing in the short term, just for Democrats to go back to their districts and say, look at what we`ve done and break it down specifically for folks.

I think right now, we`re seeing a lot of people just impatient, they`re seeing inaction in Congress and Democrats are in charge. So Democrats will be blamed for that. And I think that forward motion is something that the President and all Democrats need if they`re even -- if they even have a shot given the political headwinds that are blowing against them in 2022.

WILLIAMS: And Joyce Vance as a former Fed, even though we have a guest on from Austin later in the broadcast, what is the chance that this DOJ effort against the Texas voter suppression will have any effect in our lifetime as opposed to just getting bottled up in court?

VANCE: This DOJ case is an interesting one, Brian, it`s more of a targeted surgical strike than anything else. It uses remaining provisions there aren`t very many in the Voting Rights Act. And then Civil Rights Act provisions to attack efforts by Texas to curtail the rights of voters with disabilities.

So for instance, if you need help voting if you need someone because your site in paradin, you need someone to confirm that your ballot is properly marked in the way that you think you`ve marked it.

[23:15:07]

This law would purport to make that impossible. DOJ is challenging those sorts of changes to the law in Texas, and they`ve done something else that`s very interesting. There`s also a lawsuit by private parties challenging these new Texas rules. And the state of Texas has come back and has said, you know, private parties under the Voting Rights Act there`s no private right of action, so your case should be dismissed.

Today DOJ filed a statement of interest in that case, saying not so quick, Texas, there is a private right of action not only DOJ but private parties have the ability to challenge these laws, that`s essential without that private party provision. When you have a Justice Department that`s less inclined to file these challenges it would be open season on voting rights. So a strong stand from DOJ and one that I think will ultimately bear fruit.

WILLIAMS: So appreciative to the three of you for taking on all of our questions tonight, Sam Stein, Kimberly Atkins Stohr and Joyce Vance are starting line with our thanks on a Thursday night.

Coming up for us, with the dust now settling in the Commonwealth of Virginia, two of our very favorite political observers are here for a damage assessment for the Democrats. And later, 84 million workers now face a deadline to either get vaccinated or get tested a lot. That`s generating even more resistance from the right as the anti-vaxxers get busy once again. Luckily for us, we have a top doctor standing by. All of it as we are just getting underway on the 11th Hour for a Thursday night beneath the Capitol dome.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:21]

WILLIAMS: Following Glenn Youngin`s victory in Virginia political reports he tapped into the parent`s pandemic era frustrations in that state. And now Republicans want to use his playbook in 2020 too, quote, Republican say his frequent messaging on education, stoking parental worries about progressivism in the classroom while urging them to play a greater role in schools helped him pull ahead while his Democratic opponent Terry McAuliffe stayed stuck in the past, trying to tie Youngkin to Donald Trump. There may have been -- they may have been too polite to say something else.

McAuliffe poured gasoline all over himself when he said during that debate, he didn`t think parents should tell schools what they should teach. He said that remember during a pandemic that has turned all parents into teachers at home.

Well, back with us tonight, Victoria DeFrancesco Soto, professor, assistant dean at the LBJ School of Public Affairs, University of Texas, Austin hook em horns, and Mark McKinnon, former adviser to both George W. Bush and John McCain, also among the co-host of The Circus, apparently a UT fan as well, on Showtime. Good evening, and welcome to you both.

Mark, let`s start on Youngkin. What percentage of young kids when was a well-run Youngkin campaign? And what percentage was because of the either entitlement of the McAuliffe campaign, the unforced errors of the McAuliffe campaign that granted, Duncan and his team jumped on?

MARK MCKINNON, FMR. ADVISER TO GEORGE W. BUSH AND JOHN MCCAIN: Well, listen, in order to win in a state that went 10 points for Joe Biden, it had to be a combination of everything, start with a great candidate. And a great team is one of the best run campaigns that I`ve ever seen. Super focused on a message that was hyperlocal. And also blessed by the opposition.

I mean that that remark by McAuliffe reminded me of John Kerry in 2004 when he said I voted for it before I voted against it. That became our whole campaign. And that was obviously said everything to the Youngkin campaign want to say but McAuliffe has -- about McAuliffe, but he said it about himself.

So, and you know, I was just thinking about the numbers. And Vicki, you may have the exact numbers. But, you know, I think about Bush and we`re trying to expand the tent. And we talked about, you know, wanting to get at least 40 percent of Hispanic vote in 2000. I think that y`all can got more than 50 percent of Hispanic voters in Virginia, that somebody had made double check me on that. But he got a lot.

WILLIAMS: Professor that certainly has been the trend line with Republican success making inroads among Hispanic voters. That`s point one. Point two, do you think what happened in Virginia is a portable skill that they can move on and put on the road in 2020? Or was it a one off?

VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO SOTO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: So what we saw with Youngkin and Latino voters, and let me just put this out there that the data is a little spotty because of the sample sizes, but what we`re seeing is that about a third of the Latino vote in Virginia went for Youngkin, which is what about Trump got nationally.

So, you know, there`s not too much there. But the thing that really caught my attention, and Mark, this is what y`all did with George W. Bush`s campaign, was really highlighting the American Dream piece of it. And this also goes back to Reagan, in that you weren`t demonizing Latinos, you are saying, Hey, I am one of you. And I want your economic security. And I also want your general security. So we saw that prime component, as well.

And one of the ads that Youngkin did in Spanish was highlighting him as a businessman, but that he started out washing dishes in Virginia Beach, to that narrative is so, so powerful. And if the GOP as we go into 2022, and 2024 reverts back to that model that Reagan started and then George W. Bush really amplified, then there is very much a path forward for Republicans.

But the question is, once we have a national campaign, once Trump becomes more of a central presence, what is going to happen, but the young can model I definitely think is a winner in terms of that moderate Latino outreach.

WILLIAMS: Mark, as a friend of mine in the politics business said just today if the Democrats either learn or remember how to talk to Americans, they could actually be dangerous. And on that topic, I want to play for you some comments on PBS made by our mutual friend Mr. Carville that`s sure got a big ride on a lot of attention today.

[23:25:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CARVILLE, VETERAN DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: What`s wrong was just stupid wokeness, all right. Don`t just look at Virginia, New Jersey. Look at Long Island, look at Buffalo, look at Minneapolis, even look at Seattle, Washington. I mean, just defund the police, Luna status (ph) take Abraham Lincoln`s name off of schools. Some of these people need to go to a woke detox center or something. I mean, that expression of language that people just don`t use, and there`s a backlash and a frustration at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: I see Judy Woodruff trying not to laugh. Mark, do you agree with Mr. Carville?

MCKINNON: Oh, I do. You know, I did my very first campaign with James, he`s still the smartest guy in politics. And, you know, and he always has a pretty good thumb on mainstream America. And that`s why, you know, that`s why Democrats listen to him in the primary, when Bernie was sort of running away with it. And he sort of, you know, put out, put up the flair to get on the Biden train, and had a big impact on that, of course, helped elect Bill Clinton, but he just has a good feel for the heartland of American.

You know, I mean, talk about the bills are in Congress right now. I bet if you asked nine out of 10 Americans would say these don`t know a damn thing about what`s in these bills, they might be able to tell you the price tag. They know that Democrats are fighting about it, but they don`t know what the hell it is. And that`s kind of James point, get out there and start talking about the meat potatoes stuff that people care about.

WILLIAMS: Indeed, that`s why we aired two minutes of Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio, telling Americans what could be coming their way to make their lives better just at the end of last night`s broadcast. Luckily for us, both Victoria and Mark have agreed to stay with us. We`ll take a break when we come back. What to expect tomorrow as the House finally nears these mythic votes on the President`s mythic spending plans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): It was a split decision on Virginia and New Jersey. And we`re taking it seriously and we have things to learn. but there`s no predicting what`s going to happen in 2022, until we put this full plan in place, we create millions of jobs, grow this economy, end the pandemic and make sure people know what we`re doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: How would you like to have that guy`s job recruiting candidates for 335 House races for the Democrats. As we reported, the House is expected to vote tomorrow on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, and the larger 1.7 5 trillion spending plan.

Still with us, thankfully, Professor Victoria DeFrancesco Soto and Mark MacKinnon. And Professor, I got one for you. This is the work of our mutual friend Eugene Robinson and he writes this, while go big or go home may be a cliche, it is advice Biden and the Democrats should heed. Once Democrats pass Biden`s big bills, the operative phrase there, they should sell them to voters trumpeting what`s in the legislation rather than lamenting what had to be left out, and they should rediscover their loss genius for bumper sticker shorthand, New Deal and Great Society, our masterpieces of the genre, Build Back Better, not so much.

Professor considering you work at a campus the kind of beating heart of which is the seat of the Great Society, the monument to Lyndon Baines Johnson of Texas. Do you agree with Eugene sentiment there?

SOTO: I absolutely agree. And this goes back to a course I`ve bought in the past, which is political marketing. At the end of the day, we know some of the most powerful policy has been powerful because it got passed, it was packaged correctly, and you can have the smartest folks putting together the best packages. But if the politics doesn`t work out, nothing is going to happen. And so this is the meat that Eugene is talking about.

But beyond that, I so agree with the point of owning it. And we saw the Obama administration, when Obamacare came out, struggling with whether to own it, what to name it. But once something is passed, and people`s lives are improved, for the better, own it, we know that once policy is passed, people are going to like the benefits that they get. That`s why you fight so hard not to have policy change, because you know that once that happens, it`s sticky.

So get it past, it`s not going to be pretty, it`s not going to be easy as we heard earlier Sam Stein talking about this, but once it is past run with it and absolutely go big.

WILLIAMS: Mark indeed, just to the professor`s point on branding phraseology the Republicans in many cases, let`s be honest with help from guys like Frank Luntz who have figured out using a combination of polling focus groups, and marketing skill, what to name things, who`s going to hate No Child Left Behind, you might as well hate puppies. I think it was a Texan Dick Armey, who was the first one to start calling Democratic things Democrat because it was sharper. It was more pejorative. And that`s now been in the language for years. Just today, Kevin McCarthy announces the parent`s Bill of Rights. That sounds fantastic until you read it.

So Mark, what`s your advice on the Democrats to get out there? Like the fuller brush guy and sell what they`ve got?

MCKINNON: Well, Brian, I talked to Sean Patrick Maloney, who was in that clip, he`s the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and the first thing he said to me is we got him right where we want them. I also talked to Cheri Bustos, who was the former head of the DCCC and she says I think that relates to your question, which is acronyms are -- you can`t speak any acronyms in her office. You get you get thrown out of the office if you if anybody mentions an acronym.

And so you`ve got people, you know, in Congress talking about the BIF and the BBB so you know, that`s a big problem. So kill the acronyms. Get out there and talk about what these programs actually are. There`s a ton of popular stuff that`s going to be out there and a lot for Democrats to campaign on. Although I fear that the narrative is really good watered down through this process.

[23:35:01]

They could have taken a big W right after the Senate vote was 69 votes. I think they should have had a vote right then. But I think all the talk about the transformative sort of FDR, LBJ era kind of stuff is really kind of in the rearview mirror now and I think it`s going to take some really focused messaging around the components of the things that are in the bill, which are actually popular, but I think Sean Patrick Maloney is a super smart guy. He`s very candid. I don`t think he`s tried to gild the lily. I think he knows what kind of job he`s got to have. He`s got a big one.

WILLIAMS: Somewhere in Washington, someone just said, you mean we shouldn`t say we`re going to pass it as part of reconciliation? Our thanks to these two friends at this broadcast, Professor Victoria DeFrancesco Soto and Mark McKinnon, it`s always a pleasure having the two of you on. Coming up for us, new reporting on these tough penalties that employers could face if their employees don`t roll up their sleeves.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: As we mentioned by administration now giving companies two months to ensure their employees are fully vaccinated or face weekly testing that they themselves may need to pay for. The rules apply to businesses with at least 100 employees and will affect more than two thirds of our nation`s workforce.

Before we get an update from one of our leading physicians who`s standing by to talk with us we have a report on this tonight from NBC News correspondent Gabe Gutierrez.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After months of vocal opposition yet remarkable compliance, the new COVID vaccine mandate covers a staggering 84 million people two thirds of the U.S. workforce. It requires companies with 100 or more employees to ensure they`re either fully vaccinated against COVID by January 4 or tested weekly.

[23:40:00]

The not require employers to pay for the test though union agreements might require some employers to foot the bill.

SECY. MARTY WALSH, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR: The idea behind this is not to spend hours and hours and a lot of public money in court. The intent behind this is to get the health and safety of workers in the workplace. Put that front and center

GUTIERREZ: U.S. labor secretary Marty Walsh says the rule will be administered by OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration fines could reach nearly $14,000 per violation.

(on camera): How exactly do you plan to enforce this?

WALSH: Yes, OSHA`s done this work for 50 years and employers know, the way that -- to work with OSHA on this thing.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): Starting December 5 covered employers will also be required to give workers paid time off to get vaccinated as well as sick leave to recover from side effects. Today, during a Senate hearing, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky sand Dr. Anthony Fauci defended the Biden administration`s COVID response.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: We know that mandates work. If you look at for example, the percentage of people that United Airlines or in the Houston Medical Association or another organizations that have mandated it works 99 plus percent.

GUTIERREZ: But mandates remain a flashpoint across the country from Los Angeles today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one should lose their job over a vaccine mandate.

GUTIERREZ: To Lynchburg, Virginia this week were dozens of workers walked off the job.

WES GARDNER, BMX TECHNOLOGIES: We would like to have the company actually sit down and talk and come to the table with clear open, honest communication.

GUTIERREZ: Tonight, some states are planning to sue the Biden administration over this latest mandate after already doing so over a previous requirement for federal contractors. In Houston, Brian Fielkow is the CEO of a supply chain logistics company is concerned about employees leaving in a tight labor market.

BRIAN FIELKOW, JETCO CEO: have real mixed emotions. Because on the one hand, you know, I know that the vaccine is are one way ticket out of the pandemic. And on the other there`s a certain reality of managing our employee bases and running our companies. And those two may be on a bit of a collision course we`re going to find out.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): The Biden administration says that because this new rule was under OSHA, it supersedes any local restrictions. Of course, opponents will no doubt take this to court.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WILLIAMS: OK, so with our thanks to Gabe Gutierrez for that setup story back with us tonight, Dr. Vin Gupta, a critical care pulmonologist in Seattle. He has been advising us on public health throughout this pandemic, also happens to be on the faculty at the University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation.

Doctor, vis-a-vis, our last conversation in our last segment, here we are back at marketing and labeling again, mandate has become a toxic word maybe wherever Frank Luntz is, he`s got something that would be more consumer friendly, more customer friendly. But be that as it may, how big a role do mandates like this play in a arresting the spread of a pandemic?

DR. VIN GUPTA, MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Brian, you know, good evening, first of all, it`s, to quote Dr. Anthony Fauci. This is going to work as we`ve seen this playbook work already for Tyson Foods, for United Airlines. And this specific rule by OSHA is going to create friction for employers, a lot of small, medium sized employers with at least 100 employees, frankly, cannot afford to put up testing. They`re going to want to cover the cost of testing so they don`t lose their workforce. So that friction is going to be key here.

Also, I will say, Brian, I just been speaking to many organizations across industries, verification of vaccine status on that part of the employee is going to be critical now. Now they`re going to have to mandate verification. So we`ll get a true sense of the Delta. How many people in an organization have not yet gotten vaccinated? I`ll also just say coming from San Bernardino. Yesterday, I was speaking to warehouse workers in the Moreno Valley, many of whom are first responders who are likely going to be subject to a healthcare workforce mandate shortly, even though they know that`s coming down the pike, Brian, they still wanted to have a discussion. They still wanted to engage and have questions. We needed to not lose sight on the long term goal, which is rebuilding trust. So parallel education and engagement still really key.

WILLIAMS: OK, Doc, stay where you are. Let me slip in a break here and we`ll continue our conversation. Coming up we`ll talk about the doctor`s prediction on when we might finally be able to consider this pandemic over.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:47:37]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JARED POLIS (D) COLORADO: One in 51 Coloradans are contagious with COVID as we speak. That means that if you`re unvaccinated, a regular trip to the grocery store, a night out to dinner are more dangerous than they`ve been at any point in this pandemic for you.

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Frequent former guest on this broadcast that`s the governor of Colorado there urging the still unvaccinated to get the shot. He is also importantly now authorized that overwhelmed hospitals in his state have the right to turn patients away during this ongoing Coronavirus surge there. Still with us luckily for us is Dr. Van Gupta.

And Doctor, we do, you know, the news has largely been good on spread of the Coronavirus on the death toll coming down though still at an unthinkable number and we`ve now lost three quarters of a million souls. But we have these hotspots. Is it time to get tougher than we`ve been getting?

GUPTA: Brian for all your viewers, if I could have your team put up that slide of what we can expect through February of 2022. We`re still expecting and this is what the University of Washington`s putting up there your viewers will see potentially on the on the level of 1,500 daily deaths starting to pick back up again December into February. That means 10,000 weekly deaths, week over week well into cold and flu season.

I was actually just talking to my colleagues at the University of Colorado, School of Medicine literally a few hours ago. And one of the questions was why is Colorado experiencing this? They have 72 percent one dose vaccine uptake rate, 66 percent of Coloradans are fully vaccinated.

Well, Brian, it turns out in the era of this more contagious Delta variant, we need that number to be higher, that there is a little room for error and even if you have 20 percent of your 18 and over population unvaccinated that`s enough to swamp hospitals. Never mind the threat of flu net. Never mind the threat of kids flu RSV. There`s a lot of threats out there over the next four to five months. I suspect light at the end of the tunnel by end of March 2022. But here`s that`s where we`re at right now. Sadly.

WILLIAMS: Wow. And this Merck anti-viral, I think I speak for a lot have us when we heard there was going to be a pill for COVID. Hopes soared.

[23:50:77]

I know the U.K. has just approved it. But then you hear things like it`s six or $700 a throw. And it`s a treatment not a prevention. Am I getting anything wrong here?

GUPTA: You`re exactly right. Let me remind everybody, these vaccines, we`re all lucky to have over 90, 95 percent effective at keeping the hospital. This Merck pill around 50 percent effective for those who are high risk to keep you out of the hospital, once you`re diagnosed with COVID.

So it`s all to say, this is a great piece of news here. But I don`t love the fact that 80 percent of supply right now is in the U.S., U.K., South Korea, Australia, places that have wonderful vaccines. We, for this pill to really change the game here. We need to distribute it, make sure it`s licensed in country`s lower middle income countries. We need to make sure that they have access to it.

Brian, part and parcel that early diagnosis, just like Tamiflu for the flu. Early diagnosis is key. So making sure everybody has access to rapid testing, making sure every patient literate on this medication knowing to ask for it. And that providers know to think about prescribing it also really vital if we`re going to learn the lessons of what we saw with the monoclonal antibody situation. People just didn`t know existed.

WILLIAMS: Vaccines for kids, what so many parents have been waiting for became a reality this week. But I have to say, we`ve seen a record number of anti-vaxx adults. A good number of them are parents, and I am guessing and I if memory serves you have young ones at home. I am guessing this is now a foot race on kind of within the child population its own kind of herd immunity.

GUPTA: Absolutely. And I think we should be very, very open eyed about the challenge in front of us that parents are going to need to have their process with their children`s pediatrician. Pediatricians, other trusted messengers need a lead on safety, they already know what to talk about. But this Pfizer vaccine, no evidence of myocarditis at that reduced dose, extremely effective 91 percent effective at preventing a positive test amongst children.

Turns out Brian, we`ve had he just had between August 1 And September 15, 60,000 pediatric hospitalizations for COVID. Brian, do you know how many pediatric hospitalizations occur per flu in a given flu season? 20,000. These are the types of facts we need to present to parents clearly concisely so that we can move past the narrative that these vaccines are harmful to younger people.

WILLIAMS: Well, turns out I have way more questions for you than I thought and turns out you had all the answers and we`ll take your advice on that last point. And we`ll keep showing that graphic to have the kind of winter we might be in for. Doctor, thank you as always. Our guest tonight Dr. Vin Gupta taking our questions on this virus.

Another break for us and coming up, common sense direct from the kitchen that they probably should listen to under that dome will explain when we come right back.

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[23:56:53]

WILLIAMS: Last thing before we go tonight, don`t stop me if you know this already. But there`s this woman on social media who calls herself politics girl. She makes videos from her kitchen aimed at helping the Democrats. She has a big following because of it. And in these videos, she routinely makes a better case for the Democrats than the Democrats themselves.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not going to sugarcoat it. What happened in Virginia was bad. Isn`t as disastrous as people are making it out to be depends on how we handle it. The media are having a field day because they love the drama. You get more clicks by saying the Democrats were destroyed that it was a close race that historically has always leaned against the party in charge. But 50.7 percent to 48.6 percent is not a shellacking.

The California recall was a legitimate ass kicking. But you didn`t see the media painting it as a bloodbath for Republicans who should step away from Trumpism or at spells doom for their chances in `22. So let`s just grain of salt the coverage on this OK, is democracy in crisis, you better believe it? Was this a good sign for the side fighting for democracy? Absolutely not.

But as any 12 STEP program will tell you, the first step to solving the problem is admitting you have a problem. And Democrats have a major messaging problem. It doesn`t matter how great your ideas are, if no one understands them, it doesn`t matter if you do great stuff. If no one knows you`re doing it, it doesn`t even matter if people agree with you if they don`t come out and vote when you need them to. People do not function and make decisions around policy points. They make them based on how they feel. These people are fighting for me, these people get it, these people don`t, these people are getting stuff done, these guys are fucking around.

Whatever it is, if it`s true or not is irrelevant. We got smoked in messaging. The choice was between truth and lies, and we lost. We lost two lies. The same thing happened in 2016. Hillary`s e-mails, Benghazi, lock her up, build the wall, they sucked all the air out of the room.

Democrats were always on defense and you cannot win that way. We need to take our messaging, throw it out and start from scratch. People need to know what we stand for, what they`re voting for, what we`re working towards, and they need to know it in six words or less.

These concepts of who we are and what we believe in what we`ll fight for needs to be repeated ad nauseum from the top of the party right on down to the smallest county clerk and we all need to say it exactly the same way.

The other side has a literal propaganda machine and Fox News and its subsidiaries and unregulated social media, they lie without consequence, are masters of spin and stand as a unified front. The mainstream media might be filled with liberal minds, but they don`t work for the Democrats. They work for profit, whatever gets the most eyeballs on the screen wins the day. That is how we got Donald Trump.

The only way to stop the constant dissemination of lies for profit and power is to have a counter message that earworms its way into the American psyche. Hate is based in fear. Fear is built on confusion. We counter hate with understanding the same way we will counter apathy. We need to sell what it is we stand for, and we need to say it in a way that people will hear if we don`t we will not win. And it`s not our party that`s on the line. It`s democracy. And that is a race we can`t afford to lose.

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WILLIAMS: So are you getting the emerging theme here? The woman in California Lima Gowen, who calls herself politics girl with the kind of messaging a lot of Democrats might love to hear from the party chair, Speaker, Majority Leader perhaps the President himself.

That is our broadcast for this Thursday evening it comes with our thanks for being here with us. On behalf of all our colleagues at the networks of NBC, good night.