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Transcript: The 11th Hour, 1/24/22

Guests: Melissa Murray, Yamiche Alcindor, Ashley Parker, Michael McFaul, Susan Del Percio, Symone Sanders

Summary

Judges have approved a request for a special grand jury by the Georgia prosecutor investigating Trump`s efforts to overturn the state`s election results. Meantime, the Jan. 6th committee has "informal conversations" with Trump`s former Attorney General Bill Barr. It comes as former House Speaker Newt Gingrich floats jail time for the committee members. Plus, the Pentagon puts 8,500 U.S. troops on `high alert` for possible deployment as tensions rise between Russia and Ukraine.

Transcript

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA) MINORITY LEADER: President bears responsibility for Wednesday`s attack on Congress by mob rioters.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY) MINORITY LEADER: There`s no question done, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: That is tonight`s "LAST WORD." THE 11TH HOUR starts now.

[23:00:29]

MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, I`m Mehdi Hasan. Day 370 of the Biden administration and former President Donald Trump is facing a serious legal threat tonight over his attempts to overturn the 2020 election results in the crucial state of Georgia. A panel of judges has now given the Fulton County Georgia District Attorney a green light to seek a special grand jury for her investigation into the former president.

One of the key pieces of evidence in that inquiry, Trump`s now infamous phone call to Georgia secretary of state Republican Brad Raffensperger a year ago, begging him to find the 11,780 votes to overcome Joe Biden`s win in that state.

The judge`s order says the grand jury will begin hearing evidence on May 2nd and quote, may make recommendations concerning criminal prosecution. According to the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the investigation goes beyond Trump`s phone call and will include quote, the abrupt resignation of former Atlanta based U.S. Attorney BJay Park and November 2020 call Senator Lindsey Graham place to Raffensperger and false claims made by Trump`s attorney Rudy Giuliani during a hearing before the Georgia Senate Judiciary Committee.

The report adds that district attorney Fani Willis previously argued that appointing a special grand jury was necessary because a significant number of witnesses and prospective witnesses have refused to cooperate.

As that investigation picks up steam, the House January 6 Committee is now talking with at least one former member of Trump`s cabinet, specifically former Attorney General Bill Barr. You may recall that even the ultra-loyal bar refused to go along with Trump`s whole stolen election scheme and told the Associated Press there was no widespread fraud.

Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson has confirmed the panel is in talks with Barr and is also looking into a draft executive order that would have permitted the defense department to seize voting machines all across the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): We`ve had conversations with the former Attorney General already. We`ve talked to Department of Defense individuals. We are concerned that our military was part of this big laugh on promoting that the election was false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: Political reports former New York City Police Commissioner and Trump ally Bernie Kerik told investigators that that plan to seize voting machines was the work of an ex-Army Colonel named Phil Waldron. Waldron also reportedly circulated a PowerPoint that urged Trump to declare a state of emergency after the election. That would have been illegal as the former AG likely would have advised the former president.

Earlier this evening, another committee member described the investigators discussions with Barr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA) JANUARY 6 SELECT COMMITTEE: They were informal conversations done by the investigators, staff with the former Attorney General. He was in a key spot, saw a lot and will remember I mean, there were a lot of things I didn`t agree with the former Attorney General about.

But at the end, he did say that these claims of voter fraud were baseless.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Would you say he`s cooperating with your committee?

LOFGREN: I don`t know what, I mean, what does that mean. He is willing and has in fact had conversations with our investigators.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: As the committee continues its work trying to get to the bottom of the Capitol insurrection, the former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and other top Trump ally, has reportedly been advising GOP leadership over the past several months and offered up this warning about the upcoming midterms and beyond.

(BEGI NVIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH, FMR. HOUSE SPEAKER: I think when you have a Republican Congress, this is all going to come crashing down. And the wolves are going to find out that they`re now sheep, and they`re the ones who are in fact going to I think face a real risk of jail for the kind of laws that are breaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: Wow, that threat did not sit well with committee Vice Chair Republican Liz Cheney, who posted this on Twitter, quote, a former Speaker of the House is threatening jail time for members of Congress who are investigating the violent January 6 attack on our Capitol and our Constitution. This is what it looks like when the rule of law unravels.

This is also what make authoritarianism looks like too. The man who actually did win the 2020 election is now facing an escalating crisis in Europe, where there are growing fears of a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Today, President Biden put 8,500 U.S. troops on high alert for possible deployment and this State Department is now evacuating family and some staff from Ukraine.

[23:05:04]

NATO in the meantime is now moving more military equipment into Eastern Europe, since Russia has shown no sign of removing any of the 100,000 troops it has stationed along the eastern border with Ukraine.

Late this afternoon, Biden held a secure video call with European allies about the Russian military threat and the possibility of sanctions. Should the Kremlin make a move?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP0

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I had a very, very, very good meeting, total unanimity with all the European leaders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer have both asked that the White House briefed all members of Congress on the tense situation in Ukraine.

And late tonight, the White House was contending with a controversy of an entirely different sword created by a hot mic moment. It all occurred when the White House correspondent for Fox tried to shout a question to the President on the issue of inflation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Will you take questions on inflation then?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

DOOCY: Do you think inflation is a political liability ahead of the midterms?

BIDEN: It`s a great asset, more inflation. What a stupid son of a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: Not long ago, the Fox reporter Peter Doocy reveal the President called him tonight and told him quote, it`s nothing personal, pal.

With that, let`s bring in our lead off guests on this Monday night, Yamiche Alcindor, anchor and moderator of Washington Week on PBS and political contributor for NBC and MSNBC. Ashley Parker, Pulitzer Prize winning White House bureau chief with the Washington Post and Professor Melissa Murray of the NYU Law School. She was a law clerk for Sonia Sotomayor on the federal bench before her nomination to the Supreme Court. Thank you all for joining me.

Melissa, let me start with you. You`re the law professor on the panel. The Atlanta Journal Constitution writes this about the decision to appoint a grand jury, special grand jury which includes 16 to 23 people are rare in Georgia. They can`t issue indictments but can subpoena witnesses and compel the production of documents and information.

How big a win is this for the district attorney in Georgia? And how can this help advance her investigation? I know we`ve asked this question before, but could trump be in real legal trouble here? But I think it`s

MELISSA MURRAY, NYU LAW PROFESSOR: Well, I think it`s a significant development for DA Willis down in Georgia. One of the things especial grand jury can do is that it can focus exclusively on a single investigation as opposed to the general grand jury that has to investigate a wide range of different crimes.

So this will be purely focused on the Trump investigation and again, it can`t issue indictments, but it can subpoena witnesses and given the recalcitrance that many of the prospective witnesses have exhibited at this point, it will be really helpful to DA Willis if those subpoenas can be issued and those individuals compelled to testify.

HASAN: Yes, it`s going to be fascinating what happens there in the coming weeks and months. Yamiche, Donald Trump was clearly obsessed with Georgia. If you remember on 1/6 in his rally on 1/6 in that now notorious speech, he mentioned it nearly 20 times, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: We`re leading Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, by hundreds of thousands of votes, and then late in the evening or early in the morning, boom, Georgia, Georgia, Georgia. They defrauded us out of a win in Georgia. Georgia, Georgia, Georgia, Georgia, Georgia, I missed Georgia that much I do. I love Georgia, but it`s a corrupt system. Georgia, Georgia, Georgia and Georgia.

(END VIDOE CLIP)

HASAN: Georgia, Georgia, Georgia. Given all of that, we know that 1/6 committee is looking at attempts to overturn the election at the federal level at Capitol Hill. Do we know what efforts the committee is making to look at efforts at the local level at the state level in places like Georgia?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS WASHINGTON WEEK ANCHOR AND MODERATOR: Well, thanks for having me on tonight. And really we do know that lawmakers who are on the January 6 House Select Committee, they have a team of lawmakers and of aides that are looking specifically at former President Trump`s efforts to try to influence local elected officials and local election officials to try to turn -- to possibly overturn the election.

So of course, Georgia is going to be at the center of that. But let`s also remember that they were Michigan lawmakers were brought to the White House and the President was there --

HASAN: Yes.

ALCINDOR: He was talking to them about the election. There was also officials in Pennsylvania that were pressured by former President Trump according to reporting and some of my sources.

So what you see here really is a lawmakers in the January 6 Select Committee taking this very seriously. But you also see in Georgia, DA Willis, taking it very seriously and also in some ways, making it very clear to the people who were on that call including Brad Raffensperger who had the forethought to record this call but they are needed to be witnesses. According to the DA these people including Brad Raffensperger that they are not wanting to be involved in this case. They are not wanting to comply with her and cooperate with her as witnesses which is why she wanted a special grand jury to be impanelled. And it`s a grand jury, not just subpoena people but literally to compel people to testify.

[23:10:03]

So it`s going to be very interesting, as you say it`s a subpoena -- to subpoena people not to indict folks, based on the reporting that I`ve been doing. So in some ways, it`s very interesting to me to see that one this DA is going after local officials who at the time, obviously, were alarmed by former President Trump`s overtures and pressure, but also that there are at a federal level investigators looking into the president, the former President`s actions.

HASAN: Yes, when we think about the Raffensperger phone call, you mentioned the Michigan meeting. Those are only the conversations that we know about that Trump had with state officials. Who knows what he said on the phone calls that we don`t know about.

Ashley, there`s been a lot of focus on which Trump allies were not cooperating with the 1/6 panel, the Meadows and Banyans and Jim Jordans of this world, but now we`re learning about those who are like Bill Barr, what does that do to the theory that all these loyal Trump inner circle types of standing by the former president, what might Bill Barr be telling the committee?

ASHLEY PARKER, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Well, I mean, I think you`re right that the people who have really thought testified have gotten all the attention. But under the radar, there`s a number of people like Bill Barr, like (INAUDIBLE), like my former Vice President Pence, his chief of staff, Mark Short, and other people on Pence`s team, who have been with little fanfare going up and cooperating with this committee.

And what it tells you is, first of all, not everyone in Trump`s orbit is fighting this for various reasons. There`s some people who don`t want to risk a subpoena or don`t want to fight a subpoena. There are some people who were frankly alarmed by what the President said and did in the run up to January 6.

And there`s someone who`s tried to report on this what the January 6, one of the challenges is, there was a very small group of people left in the White House, in the West Wing and former President Trump`s orbit at that time, but some of these people like Bill Barr, he was there through about Christmas. I think his official last day was December 23rd. Like people Pence`s team, like Keith Kellogg who was there that day. These are people who actually have real first hand visibility into what the President was saying, doing, thinking and ordering his team to do and that`s going to be incredibly helpful for the January 6 committee.

HASAN: Yes, and of course, I should point out that Bill Barr was a loyal AG but as soon as he said there was no fraud, Trump has started attacking him as he does attack many of his former employees, pretending that they were always useless apart from when he hired them and praised them.

Melissa, Max Boot has a new piece out in the Washington Post. Max Boot, former Republican never Trumper, headline, sorry, progressives, the criminal justice system is unlikely to save us from Trump. He points out that Mueller and two impeachment trials came and went and yet Trump is still a free man. It`s unlikely a former president will ever be imprisoned in the United States. He`s got a point, hasn`t he?

MURRAY: Well, I think this President has given Ronald Reagan a run for his money in terms of being the Teflon president. But it`s unclear how far this will actually go. Again, I think that criminal investigation in Georgia on electoral fraud, it`s the only criminal investigation into the events leading up to the January 6 insurrection that can actually be traced.

That could be incredibly promising. Of course, any conviction that could come from a trial there would be appealed in the Georgia State courts, which are controlled by Republicans, that could be problematic.

But I`m not sure that Max Boot is entirely right that all hope is lost, that there will be criminal accountability for all of the acts that this President undertook during his tumultuous four years in office.

HASAN: So, let`s stop talking about the former guy. Now let`s talk about the current guy. Let`s talk about what Joe Biden is up to crisis in Europe. Ashley, what is the White House view tonight on the situation in Ukraine? Is there an expectation that there will be a military confrontation, at least between the Ukrainians and the Russians, if not involving US troops? Or is diplomacy still a viable option at this stage from the White House`s point of view?

PARKER: Well, President Biden and the administration in general are it`s a very fluid situation is they in any of their allies will tell you and are still trying to figure out what are right now, the best deterrent steps to take that`s in part why President Biden have his entire week pretty clear, especially notable after he came out at the press conference and said he was going to be travelling around the country getting out of the bubble more. He wanted to keep himself free to handle this crisis.

There are a number of agencies of the administration who fully believe that Russia is going to invade Ukraine that sort of attack is imminent by mid- February, but they really don`t know. I think we`ll learn more from those briefings on Capitol Hill tomorrow, but again, they say it`s a fluid situation. They are putting more troops on alert, they`re taking a more aggressive posture, but we sort of don`t know because they have not made any official decision yet.

[23:15:00]

HASAN: Yes, it`s tense times and in the middle of tense times, we got this little blow up this evening, earlier today at the White House, we mentioned Joe Biden`s off mic moment with the fox reporter Pete Doocy.

Yamiche, I want to bring you in here and ask about this comment that Biden made. How much was that the President letting off steam irritated with a Fox reporter not realizing the mic is on? How much is that an outrageous attack on the press?

I mean, you were someone who I remember, received some pretty vicious personal attacks from the former president in the Briefing Room. Is this any way comparable? What do you make of this whole incident today?

ALCINDOR: I think it`s fair to say that a President of the United States, whether Democrat or Republican, should not be cursing at reporters, whether they`re frustrated at them whether they don`t like the question.

HASAN: Yes.

ALCINDOR: Peter Doocy, of course, it`s had -- had a tumultuous relationship with President Biden. His question was on inflation, which is a pretty credible thing to be asking the President about on today, and throughout this time, where we`re seeing record highs.

So I think, obviously, if you`re supportive President Biden, you see this as him sort of blowing off steam and him sort of attacking a president, that attacking reporter rather than has gotten on his nerves.

But if you`re a reporter, like me, what I hear from my fellow reporters this is not a good look for this administration. I`m reporting is that Peter Doocy got a call from the President of the United States tonight apologizing and asking to move forward.

So what you see there`s also President Biden, recognizing that this was not an appropriate thing to do, and apologizing to this President and apologizing to this reporter.

HASAN: Yes, I`m not sure how many times Donald Trump rang up people like yourself to apologize, I`m going to guess, zero. Melissa, last question to you before we run out of time. While all this is going on crisis in Europe, legal challenges in Georgia. Am I right in saying that the far right Supreme Court that we luckily have is about to strike down affirmative action in higher education is that what you understand is going on in these new cases?

MURRAY: I think it`s very likely the court took certain two cases, one from Harvard, and one from the University of North Carolina both pose real questions about the continued use of race conscious admissions in higher education admissions.

The last time the court took this up was in 2016. Of course, the court is incredibly differently constituted now.

In that 2016 case, it was Justice Kennedy, who wrote for a four to three majority. Now the court is stacked with a 63 super majority of conservatives, three of whom were appointed by President Trump.

I think it`s unlikely that we`re going to see affirmative action continue in the form that we`ve known it, whether or not they will dismantle it entirely. It`s entirely up to the court and they will take up that case next term.

HASAN: Melissa, I think it`s fine. I think all of those Supreme Court justices will follow the law and not their own political biases. I promise you. Yamiche Alcindor, Ashley Parker, Melissa Murray, we will have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time analysis tonight.

As the U.S. prepares equipment and troops for Ukraine, how close are we really to war? I`ll ask a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, and later why swing state Arizona is yet again a troubling microcosm of where today`s Republicans stand on imaginary voter fraud, and very real voter suppression. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a Monday night. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:21:53]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: There`s no reason for this to come to outright conflict. There`s no reason for there to be another land war in Europe and that`s why we want to continue to pursue a diplomatic path forward here. We don`t believe that Vladimir Putin has made a final decision to launch yet another invasion or incursion into Ukraine. We still think there`s time and space for diplomacy. There`s not going to be any pushing the United States out of Europe. We have a very sizeable force posture there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: The Pentagon press secretary tonight responding to warnings from former intelligence officer Fiona Hill, that Russia is hoping to evict the U.S. from Europe. Here`s what she wrote in today`s New York Times, quote, getting out of the current crisis requires acting, not reacting. The United States needs to shape the diplomatic response and engage Russia on the west terms. Not just Moscow`s forging a united front with its European allies and rallying broader support should be America`s longer game. Otherwise, this saga could indeed mark the beginning of the end of America`s military presence in Europe.

Back with us, Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia and MSNBC international affairs analyst. His book is titled "From Cold War to Hot Peace and American Ambassador in Putin`s Russia."

Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show tonight. How much room do you actually think there is for diplomacy with Russia even now? Because interestingly, Ukraine`s Old National Security secretary told the BBC he doesn`t believe an invasion is imminent, that we should avoid panic. Do you believe Putin has made a final decision?

MICHAEL MCFAUL, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Mehdi, I don`t believe he`s made a final decision. But I want to underscore I don`t know if he`s made a final decision. I don`t believe President Biden knows. I don`t think foreign secretary -- Foreign Minister Lavrov knows. And that`s exactly what Putin likes. He likes to have uncertainty. He likes for us to be negotiating among ourselves before we negotiate with him.

And if I had to guess, I think he`s still waiting to make the final decision. And remember, the final decision is not invade or not, in between doing nothing, and marching soldiers all the way to Kiev, he has many options in between that he could be thinking about doing. Well.

HASAN: That`s a good point. And there was a point you posted over the weekend that I wanted to ask you about Michael, here`s what you said, quote, since 1945, until today, U.S. soldiers have been stationed in Germany to deter a Soviet threat and now a Russian threat. I don`t recall German leaders describing these deployments as to provocative to Moscow.

Now, aside from the fact that the USA with the USSR invaded Germany and took over Berlin in 1945, I`m just wondering, are you suggesting with that analogy that we should have a permanent decade`s long deployment of U.S. troops in Ukraine as we have had in Germany since the war?

MCFAUL: No, I wasn`t. I was in reference to a much smaller debate that we`re having among our allies, including our German allies about military assistance to Ukraine. And there are some politicians in Europe and some people here in the United States that believe increasing military assistance to Ukraine right now is provocative. And my point is that`s deterrence. That that is a way to try to deter war not to escalate war, and we can disagree about those arguments, but in conversation with senior Ukrainian officials including President Zelensky.

[23:25:04]

When I hosted him here several months ago, they want more military assistance, because they know we are not going to fight for them. NATO is not going to fight for them. Everybody is crystal clear about that. So they want to have the ability for themselves to try to deter a Russian escalation of the military intervention. Let`s remember, 14,000 Ukrainians have already died in this Russian Ukrainian war.

HASAN: Yes, this war has been going on for years, sadly, and it hasn`t got enough press attention. You mentioned deterrence. Some people argue well, giving weapons to Ukraine isn`t a deterrent. It just is a self-fulfilling prophecy, more likely to lead toward the provocation argument that you just noticed -- that you just noted.

New York Times columnist Ross Douthat argues that we should avoid war with Russia at all costs. And he suggests a strategic retreat of sorts. He goes on to write and I quote, given those realities and the pressing need to concentrate American power in East Asia to counter China, it`s clear enough where an ideal retreat would end up with NATO expansion permanently tabled with Ukraine subject to inevitable Russian pressure, but no, they invaded nor annex and with our NATO allies, shouldering more of the burden of maintaining a security perimeter in Eastern Europe, do you disagree with that?

MCFAUL: Yes, and no. First of all, President Biden agreed with that he would be a one term president. I think it`s very important to understand their domestic politics that he has to think about as well as the policy implications. But on the policy implications, we basically have all that everything that was just described there.

NATO expansion, there hasn`t been a major wave of NATO expansion since 2002. There has not been any conversation about Ukraine joining NATO in any serious sense since 2008. I`ve served five years in the Obama administration. I was in every meeting with the President, with Putin and President Medvedev at the time, never once did this issue come up.

Why is it coming up today, because Putin is inventing this as a reason to threaten Ukraine. He has invented this crisis about NATO expansion, and therefore, I think it would be a catastrophic mistake to react to invented crisis that he has set up on the borders of Ukraine.

HASAN: So on that note, and you mentioned the domestic politics here in the U.S., let`s talk about the domestic politics in Russia. Sometimes we reduce countries abroad to their leaders, especially countries we`re opposed to. But let`s go beyond Putin for a moment. Among the Russian people as a whole, is it not a general sentiment that NATO the West needs to back off? Isn`t that a priority for Russia as a whole, not just for Putin?

MCFAUL: It is today, it`s a great question. But it hasn`t been continuously that way for 30 years. And I think that`s a great important thing to remember. There were other Russian leaders who are not talking about the threat of NATO. I want your listeners to go Google President Medvedev`s speech at the NATO 2010 Lisbon summit, and see what that Russian -- that Russian leader was saying about NATO at that time.

The second point is the Russians also don`t want to go to war with Ukraine. If you read the public opinion polls, and remember, it`s an autocracy. So it`s hard to know if they`re accurate or not, but vast majority see the Ukrainians as, yes, there`s lots of family ties and ethnic ties and deep historical ties. They don`t want to go to war for Ukraine over some, you know, long term threat of NATO, you know, years decades down the road.

HASAN: Yes. Well, let`s hope no one wants to go to war when it comes down to it. And everyone, you`ve got your homework at home, go Google that speech, the ambassador mentioned, but not till the show is over. Former Ambassador Michael McFaul, appreciate you taking time out speak to us tonight.

MCFAUL: Thanks for having me.

HASAN: Coming up. What could actually stop Republicans from as one prominent voice put it laughing all the way to election day? That`s when the 11th Hour continues after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:32:36]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT) BUDGET COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: What has bothered me very much is the Republicans are laughing all the way to election day. They have not had the cast one bloody vote, or two which shows us where they`re at. And we`ve got to change that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: To that point from Senator Bernie Sanders, a new NBC poll shows a distinct disadvantage for Democrats heading into the midterms. Republicans have a double digit lead on enthusiasm 61 percent to 47 percent for Democrats. With us tonight, Symone Sanders, former chief spokesperson for the Vice President, she will be hosting an upcoming show here on MSNBC and on our streaming channel, the Choice on Peacock and Susan Del Percio, MSNBC political analyst and a veteran political strategist. Thank you both for joining me.

Susan, let me start with you. What is your reaction to that NBC poll? Midterm elections have traditionally had low turnout, this one is pretty vital. How do you get Democrats to get excited?

SUSAN DEL PERCIO, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first, let me start off with I can`t believe I`m going to say this, but I agree with Bernie Sanders. Republicans are laughing all the way because they haven`t had to take a vote. The way Democrats start changing the environment is by taking votes that they can win.

So it could be small ball, it could be insulin capped at $35, which was in Build Back Better. It can be on universal pre-K. There`s a lot of different votes that they can take and get Republicans on the record. I would put a $15 minimum wage for those Republicans who`d like to fancy themselves progressives.

That`s how they start at least getting their base more vote motivated by seeing them do something because right now, it`s like gloom and doom. It`s written in the stone. It`s not written in stone. Yes. It`s our history of always turning the house over. Not always, but almost always, you know, party against the party that`s in the White House, but there`s room and time here.

HASAN: Well, room and time. Symone, do you agree with that? And I`ve got to ask, Kamala Harris is not just your former boss, Bernie Sanders is a former boss of yours. Do you agree with the senator there that breaking this thing up making the Republicans and Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema vote on the price of insulin, vote on universal pre K, vote on climate change? Is that the way forward to saving Democrat seats come the midterms.

[23:35:00]

SYMONE SANDERS, FMR. SENIOR ADVISOR AND CHIEF SPOKESPERSON FOR VP HARRIS: I have worked for a lot of people, Mehdi. Look, I agree with the good senator from Vermont. And I also agree with parts of as Susan said, look, the reality here is first and foremost, the sky is not falling. Polls go up and down. And polls are a snapshot about how pieces of the electorate feel at that given time. There is still time here.

I would also note that Democrats have put things put for -- put forward ideas, they put forward legislation, but in the Senate, particularly it has been blocked by Republicans who have been unwilling to let some of these bills come to the floor for debate. We talked a lot about voting rights over the last couple of weeks. And we`ll continue to do so here on this network because it will be in the news.

Well, the reason that Democrats were even able to bring the Voting Rights piece of bills, the Freedom to Vote Act, and the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act to the floor was because leader Schumer had to go around using some of these archaic Senate rules to get the bills on the floor because Republicans had blocked debate. So I say all this to say that Democrats, they have been working and fighting.

What you heard from Senator Sanders over this weekend is the suggestion that they have to get a little more crafty, and I absolutely do agree. But there`s still time in this administration has something to run on.

One last point, I would note is this that we talked a lot about midterm elections and whatnot. Midterm elections are November 2022. And I went to Governor`s race in 2014 in a red state for a Democrat. And in 2014, you could not have the words healthcare, you couldn`t utter the words President Obama, and it`s very different this year. Democrats across the country, they have something to write on the bipartisan infrastructure law, the American Rescue Plan, the progress that this administration has made. Yes, there are some real challenges confronting this administration when it comes to inflation, when it comes to the pandemic. But Democrats still want the president vice president in their district. And I think that that`s cause for pause here.

HASAN: And Susan, you recently wrote, quote, it`s time to do triage on the Biden administration. You pointed out that the legislative agenda, the Biden agenda is bleeding out. Question to you. You`ve worked on a lot of races. How much do elections really turn on policy? Because I know we love talking about, you know, is it health care and kitchen table issues and pocket but issues? But how much of it is about policy? And how much of it really about people`s feelings, people`s identities? What Republicans really, you know, a good, you know, ginning up people`s anxieties and fears and hopes and concerns, how much is it more about that than it is about strict policy measures or bills?

DEL PERCIO: Well, it`s not about policies, but it`s about anger, frankly, that`s what midterm elections are mostly about, again, as a referendum as on the party in the White House. And in this case, holding the house in the Senate. Without question, the Republicans have used tactics of fear and hate, I won`t deny that.

But at the same time, they also speak directly to people and not tell them what they should be feeling or how they should be feeling about the administration, or their ideas, which right now, Republican slack, but they try and be more relatable and say you`re right, you know, you -- there is inflation out there. And we do need to struggle, and I -- not struggle, but we do need to work together to get this done. It is a struggle out there.

And it`s time for Democrats to -- the reason I wrote that was I want them to be more aggressive. I actually want them to hold the house in the Senate. So they -- what policy does is allow for wins and give them something to talk about. But they`ve also got to push back a lot harder on Republicans.

HASAN: Yes, and the best full move -- the best full of defense is a good offense. Also, just bear in mind, Donald Trump ran for reelection in 2020 with no policy platform and got what 75 million votes, which tells you something disturbing about America today.

Symone and Susan are staying with us. And coming up next, how the Trump big lies inspiring dozens of Republican backed bills to change Arizona`s elections while Arizona`s Kyrsten Sinema does nothing. That`s when the 11th Hour continues after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:42:18]

HASAN: Over the weekend, the Arizona Democratic Party censured Senator Kyrsten Sinema for her vote against making an exception to the filibuster to pass crucial voting rights legislation. But that censure is a symbolic gesture and Sinema sadly isn`t up for reelection until 2024.

Still, while Sinema does nothing, Republicans in our own state are very busy proposing major changes to Arizona election law. Despite their own review of the 2020 election, they`re finding no evidence of fraud. NBC News reports quote, proposals introduced in the State House or the Senate would add an additional layer to the state`s voter ID requirements, such as fingerprints and stipulate the hand counting of all ballots by default. Other legislation would require that paper ballots be printed with holograms and watermarks. Beyond ridiculous.

Still with us, Symone Sanders and Susan Del Percio. Symone, question to you. Why didn`t Joe Biden do you think, why do you think he came so late to the voting rights battle to publicly opposing the filibuster? He did his great speech in Atlanta a few weeks ago. But what was the thinking inside the White House in 2021? Why put off the Voting Rights struggle and go for infrastructure and build back better first? We lost a lot of time, didn`t we?

SANDERS: Well, Mehdi, I think the President was actually very frank and clear with folks about his thinking there. He did a town hall earlier in the year in 2021, where he was asked this very question. And the President basically said that he had two legislative packages at that point, it was one big package. It was a bipartisan infrastructure deal that was broken up by partisan infrastructure deal, and then the Build Back Better agenda. And he wanted to go to get those done. And then the next legislative fight he would take on would be voting rights.

Folks can debate and argue about whether that was the best strategy in terms of publicly, the President himself publicly coming out on those issues. And he said, why, you know, look, he said he didn`t think he`d be able to get the support of all of the senators and members of Congress that he needed, if he started with the voting rights fight first. That was in fact, his thinking hindsight is in fact 2020.

I think now, the reality is that yes, the vote on the debate of the bills, the debate and the actual vote on the bills and the filibuster did fail last week, but it`s not over. Democrats can bring the bills to the floor and different ways they can break the bills up. There is bipartisan or there should be rather, bipartisan need and sense of urgency to address these issues.

The bills you`re talking about an Arizona, Mehdi, they just don`t affect Democrats. They affect Arizona voters, period.

HASAN: Yes.

SANDERS: Democrats, Republicans, young folks, old folks. And so I think that we have allowed this conversation about voting rights to be held, had had is if only it is something that affects Democrats or it`s just issue if you will for black voters when it`s an issue for democracy and that`s how we should be discussing it.

[23:45:06]

HASAN: Yes, indeed. And that is how we should be discussing it. And interestingly, there is no bipartisan support for Federal Voting rights legislation, Susan, but there is a new bipartisan push to reform the very archaic Electoral Count Act of the 19th century, which some would argue helped cause the 1/6 event. Do you think that`s good enough? Can Democrats trust Mitch McConnell and co on this particular proposed reform, breaking off from the rest of the voting rights legislation and doing a deal just to fix the Electoral Count Act?

DEL PERCIO: Well, I think they should get it done. At least it`s something that is you can point to and say we achieved this. There`s talk about Biden doing a couple of executive orders on voting rights. He should get that done as well. It goes back to our previous conversation, small balls, get the victory she can.

Symone is absolutely right about this being an issue, though, that affects all Americans. It affects Democrats and Republicans. That disastrous bill in Arizona is going to make it so hard for people in Arizona, all people, all of them to vote the way they used to vote like it will unpin the system.

Ironically, it will probably be one Republican in the state senate that prevents this becoming law, because the state legislature now in Arizona is 18-16, Republican, Democrat. And this one Republican will not sign on to it. So, it probably won`t go anywhere. And this is probably more election day, you know, propaganda, if you will. But these are very dangerous times. We should be focused on expanding access to the ballot, not restricted.

HASAN: Yes. Yes, when you have Joe Manchin running around Congress saying, Well, everyone will vote for anything. OK. Is he lying? Is he being ignorant? He`s from West Virginia, who knows, you know, but when you have Kyrsten Sinema who`s from Arizona, you know, some would argue ground zero of voter suppression efforts. It`s bizarre how this has been allowed to continue. Symone, I had Arizona Congressman Ruben Gallego on my show last night on MSNBC. Have a listen to what he had to say about Senator Sinema and Manchin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): These two senators have agency. We can`t just give an excuse that like, well, everyone else didn`t do their jobs. No, these are adults. These are people that have run these. They`ve had opinions, by the way, compared to the filibuster in the past. As a matter of fact, just a month ago, they voted to exempt the debt limit from the filibuster. So that`s what we need to focus on. We need to make sure that people understand that these senators, Senator Sinema and Senator Manchin, purposely torpedo this agenda and purposely torpedoed other democratic agendas, and we should hold them accountable by whatever means we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: Symone, is it time for Joe Biden as leader of the party, not just as President to be, I don`t know a bit more Frank Underwood esque or at least LBJ esque and call these two senators out, hold them accountable, especially Sinema who`s vulnerable in Arizona? Shouldn`t there be political consequences for Joe Manchin and especially Kyrsten Sinema?

SANDERS: Well, I don`t know about Frank Underwood, Mehdi, I thought all theory. But I will say that the President has I, look, I think the President has been as clear and as frank as he can be. You know, he went -- he`s gone up to the Senate at this point, at least two times to a Senate caucus luncheon, a Dem caucus luncheon to make the case for his agenda one is on the Build Back Better agenda and the bipartisan infrastructure deal. And then he did it again the most recently on voting rights.

The President is using the tools in his bailiwick in the bully pulpit of the White House. Kyrsten Sinema is receiving consequences for not just her vote against, or her unwillingness to support the agenda last week, but her vote against raising the minimum wage and the COVID-19 Relief bill, her unwillingness, frankly, to be clear about where she stands on a number of bills. The Arizona Democratic Party, they got her elected and if they are willing to censure her so publicly two years before an actual election, it must mean something`s cooking in the water.

HASAN: YEs, it`s outrageous that millions of Democratic voters and activists helped get her elected and she just turned her back on them. It`s outrageous. We`ll have to leave it there. Symone Saunders and Susan Del Percio, thank you for your time tonight. Appreciate it.

Coming up, why some Virginia school districts are already suing over an executive order from newly inaugurated Trump`s aborting Governor Glenn Youngkin. That`s when the 11th Hour continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:52:39]

HASAN: After a gubernatorial campaign centered on education controversies, Virginia`s new Republican governor is fulfilling one key promise that he made. Effective today masks are no longer required in Virginia`s public schools, or at least that`s what the governor says. But Glenn Youngkin is finding out it`s not quite that simple. As NBC News correspondent Catie Beck reports.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My children will not come to school on Monday with a mask on.

CATIE BECK, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To mask or not to mask a question now reaching a boiling point in Virginia schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We must keep our counties mask in place. Not only do we need it, but we are students demand it.

BECK: In effect Monday, newly elected Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin`s executive order allowing parents to decide whether their child should wear a mask at school undoing the previous statewide mandate.

ABBIE PLATT, LOUDOUN COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENT: It means that our son will be able to breathe more freely. And we looked forward to this day for a very long time.

BECK: Well, some districts are celebrating the new direction. Others stand firmly against it, saying it puts children`s health and safety at risk at a critical time. Several districts refusing to comply with the order and requiring students to continue wearing masks. Seven of them now taking Youngkin to court challenging in order they call unconstitutional.

CARRA ROSE, RICHMOND PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENT: I honestly don`t want my kids in masks forever at school. That`s just not, you know, feasible. But sit`s -- they know it`s the right thing to do to protect our others.

BECK: The Governor`s Office responding Monday saying they will defend their order as the legal process plays out and that they`re disappointed that these school boards are ignoring parents`s rights. Youngkin himself tweeting guidance on the ongoing battle over the weekend. I urge everyone to love your neighbor, to listen to school principals and to trust the legal process.

(on camera): And this issue is not unique to Virginia. We`re seeing similar schools standoffs happening in Texas, Arizona and Florida. These cases could likely end up in court and could take weeks, even months to be decided. In Richmond, Virginia, I`m Catie Beck for NBC News.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

HASAN: Coming up, President Biden made some harsh we put it, choice remarks about a Fox reporter today. But given what the former guy said, Are we really going to have a debate about civility again, when the 11th Hour continues.

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[23:58:43]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: Do you think inflation is a political liability ahead of the midterms?

BIDEN: It`s a great asset, more inflation. What a stupid son of a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: The last thing before we go tonight, as we mentioned earlier, President Biden`s frustrations w`ith Fox correspondent Pete Doocy, picked up on a hot mic this evening. Some on the right were quick to attack Biden for saying such a thing. But you know, I don`t know about you but I feel like I`ve heard that kind of language somewhere before where, where.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Say get that son of a bitch off the field right now. He`s a sleeping son of a bitch, I`ll tell you. We took that son of a bitch out, didn`t we? Don`t you understand? You dumb son of a bitch. Don`t you understand? And his people screaming at him, Don`t say that you stupid son of a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN: Not to mention the fact that Trump called Mitch McConnell a dumb son of a bitch at the RNC donor retreat just last April. Look, while I personally prefer President Biden didn`t call reporters in the Briefing Room names, even the ones from pretend news organizations like Fox. We can`t simply ignore the fact that the rights hero, the former guy didn`t just call people SOBs, he called the press the enemies of the people. He recklessly incited violence against us. Don`t forget that.

That is our broadcast for this Monday night with our thanks for being with us. On behalf of all my colleagues at the networks of NBC News, good night. distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of VIQ Media Transcription, Inc. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.