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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 6/28/22

Guests: Barry Berke, Neal Katyal, Olivia Troye, Tim O`Brien, David Cay Johnston, Andrew Weissmann, Steve Kornacki


Donald Trump attacks the credibility of Cassidy Hutchinson after her damning testimony before the January 6th Committee. Mary Trump reacts to the claim of her uncle`s violent outbursts. The January 6th Committee shares messages received by witnesses and warns against witness intimidation. And votes are being counted in eight states.


BARRY BURKE, AUTHOR: Who may not have liability to come forward in addition to those that Neal rightly talks about those who do have liability, and now we`re afraid that they may face their reckoning and therefore make a deal trading their own freedom for Donald Trump`s.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Barry Berke, Neal Katyal, thank you for serving as the Last Word`s legal team once again, we always appreciate it.


BURKE: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: And let`s listen to more of what Cassidy Hutchinson said today.


CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FMR. AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: I remember feeling frustrated, disappointed in really, it felt personal. I was really sad. As an American, I was disgusted. It was unpatriotic. It was unAmerican. We are watching the Capitol Building get defaced over a lie. And it was something that was really hard in that moment, to digest knowing what I`ve been hearing down the hall, and the conversations that were happening, seeing that tweet come up and knowing what was happening on the hill. And it`s something that it`s still I still struggled to work through the emotions of that.


O`DONNELL: Join us now is Olivia Troye, a former top aide to Vice President Mike Pence. She attended the hearing today. And as a former colleague of Cassidy, Hutchinson.

And Olivia, I just want to read for the audience. The tweet that she was just talking about it was Donald Trump tweeting at 2:24 p.m. on the Capitol was under violent attack and that was being televised, and he was watching it. He tweeted, Mike Pence didn`t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones, which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth.

And so Donald Trump further endangered Mike Pence`s life with that tweet. And what Cassidy Hutchinson is seems to be saying is, we knew, she knew that that tweet was further endangerment of the vice president.

OLIVIA TROYE, FMR. ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: Yes, and I can only imagine in the moment what she must have been feeling. This is someone who served loyally in the Trump administration. I worked with her. She was a critical figure in the West Wing. And like she`s young. She came to Washington to serve. And you can disagree with the politics, you can disagree with the fact that she served in the Trump administration or for other Republican leaders of our country.

But the fact of the matter is, there she is in the moment, and she sees this tweet, and she sees what is happening. And it`s processing it in real time and thinking to herself, here I am trying to serve my country. And she knows Mike Pence, she knows the office, she sat right near the former vice president`s office all the time, we worked very closely with her. Everybody knows Cassidy Hutchinson, if you served in the Trump administration, choose Mark Meadows right hand person.

And to sit there and say, and for her to sit there and like process that and I could feel the emotion in her voice. I was there at the hearing today, in support of her watching her go through this on her own and she stood there testifying. I can only imagine that she is still processing that today because it`s hard to hear, because it`s hard to believe that anyone who is a leader of the United States of America will put their own vice president`s life in danger and then escalate it with a tweet fully knowing what was already developing fully knowing the threats that were coming and bullying going on the lead up to January 6 of what was going to develop that day and then he encourages us.

O`DONNELL: The -- We just heard her say that it felt personal. I was really sad as an American. I was disgusted. Who is she? America is meeting her today in a stunning encounter on television the likes of which no one has ever witnessed before on television. What can you tell us about this person who we are all meeting in this strange way today?

TROYE: She was a staffer in the West Wing. She started very loyally. She was Mark Meadows`s right hand person. She was a gatekeeper at times. She was a well-known entity in the Trump administration and God watching people try to disparage her. I`m trying to -- I`m watching people mischaracterize her role. They`re trying to demean her. They`re trying to disparage her name.

But the reality is, is that if you weren`t in the Trump administration, and especially in the West Wing or on the White House grounds, you know, Cassidy Hutchinson and she was loyal and she was a public servant. First and foremost.

You know, I know Cassidy`s character. She took great pride and serving in the people`s house that is who Cassidy Hutchinson is.


You may disagree with what she supported, and the policies there serving as part of the Trump administration. But she`s an American, and she`s a patriot. And I hope the American people understand that today. Because what she did today, it takes great courage, and she knows the vitriol (ph) that will come because she was on the inside, watching me when I came forward.

And I`m sure she heard it all of what they said about me, and then she -- the security concerns that she`s facing today. That`s not going to fade, that`s going to follow her for quite some time. Her life is forever changed.

O`DONNELL: I was struck by the dynamic between her and Liz Cheney and thinking, of knowing her biography that she worked in the house before the White House, she served on Steve Scalise`s staff in the House as an intern, just starting out. And I`m just imagining a young Republican staffer woman in the House, who`s just arrived, she had been an intern in Washington before, but there she was.

And in those movements, through those hallways of the House, I would suspect that the person she admired the most, who she was seeing in those hallways and hearing in those hallways, and possibly encountering here, and there was Liz Cheney, from that side of the aisle in the House of Representatives.

And I wonder if anyone else could have brought out this testimony as effectively as Liz Cheney, and possibly could anyone else have made this particular witness as comfortable and ready to deliver that testimony?

TROYE: That`s a great point. And I`ve got to be honest at that I sat in the room. And I watched Liz Cheney asked her the questions. I thought that that was so powerful, because these are two conservative Republican women. And that is a Republican leader, asking her questions, asking her to testify to facts, and the truth. And these are two women who have stood strong in the face of their own party, who is going to continue to trash them, and who is going to continue to try to undermine their work.

But the fact of the matter is, you can undermine Liz Cheney in terms of conservatism. You can`t really undermine Cassidy, who worked for Scalise who worked for Ted Cruz. Most of these Republican congressional people know her, they know her by name. She`s walked those halls in Congress.

And so it was just such an important moment, I think. And I think you`re absolutely correct, that only Liz Cheney could put her at ease. And say, all you`ve got to do is, you know, you`re telling the truth. And we`re, we know, we know what this was. Those of us who have been in the circle have lived it, but incredibly powerful, to give her the opportunity to give her the microphone and stand with her and get her through it. And that was incredibly powerful and moving.

That`s partially why showed up at the hearing today. I mean, mostly, actually, it`s 100 percent why. Because I wanted to Cassidy you know, that those of us who have been there were there for her. She`s not alone in it. It she`s -- it`s going to be a very lonely place for her.

O`DONNELL: I saw her have a few private words with Liz Cheney after the hearing before she was leaving, they embraced. And clearly, there`s a warm relationship there that has developed through this process. At this point, did you get a chance to say anything to Cassidy Hutchinson before she was taken out of that hearing room today?

TROYE: I did not speak to her. We have exchanged messages. And I told her how courageous and proud I was of her. You know, it takes tremendous courage in the face of adversity. And there are many who are out there who were witness to what she testified to today who still have not come forward, taking case my former boss, Mike Pence, to pretty silent on the matter.

And here you have a young woman who is willing to speak truth to power and stand forward and take on the Republican establishment that is her entire career as she knows that. And yet, we`re all waiting for Mike Pence, to come forward and say something. And I think that just speaks volumes. And I`m grateful for her integrity and strength of character.

O`DONNELL: Olivia Troye, thank you very much for joining us once again. We always appreciate it and especially tonight. Thank you very much.

TROYE: Thanks for having me.

O`DONNELL: Coming up. We learned more today about what it was really like inside that Trump Madhouse that we call the White House.



HUTCHINSON: There was catch up dripping down the wall. And there`s a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the President was extremely angry at the Attorney General`s AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall.


O`DONNELL: Up next is Mary Trump surprised that her uncle threw food at the wall in the White House. Mary Trump will join us next.



O`DONNELL: OK, take yourself back to December 1st, 2020, three weeks after Donald Trump lost the presidential election. Attorney General William Barr said in an interview that there was no widespread election fraud. And then this happened.


HUTCHINSON: There is catch up dripping down the wall. And there`s a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the President was extremely angry at the Attorney General`s AP interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall, which was causing them to have to clean up. So I grabbed a towel and started wiping the catch up off of the ball to help the valet out. And he said something to the effect of he`s really ticked off about this. I would stay clear of him for right now. He`s really, really ticked off about this right now.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): And Ms. Hutchinson, was this the only instance that you are aware of where the president through dishes?


CHENEY: And are there other instances in the dining room that you recall where he expressed his anger?

HUTCHINSON: There were there were several times throughout my tenure with the chief of staff that I was aware of him either throwing dishes or flipping the tablecloth to let all the contents of the table go onto the floor and likely breaker go everywhere.


O`DONNELL: First, Mary Trump, niece of Donald Trump`s she`s host of the podcast the Mary Trump Show and author of "The Reckoning: Our Nation`s Trauma and Finding a Way to Heal." Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Did you learn anything about the behavior of your uncle today?

MARY TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP NIECE: No, it seems every time I speak to Lawrence, the first thing I say is nothing surprised me.


TRUMP: But in this particular case, actually, just because it wasn`t surprising. Does it mean it isn`t horrifying? And I think we need to focus on that. And how the people in closest proximity to him with apparently one exception failed the American people so egregiously.

O`DONNELL: Yes, you know, I mean, I don`t know the guy. I`ve observed him from the distance of public observation. And I thought all of this was completely clear. I thought he self-revealed all of this, his first wife accused him of rape. E Jean Carroll is a credible accuser of rape of Donald Trump, we heard him say on the Hollywood -- Access Hollywood tape, the way he approaches women violently, physically.


O`DONNELL: All of that is worse than throwing his cheeseburger against the wall. And all of it is of a piece of the spoiled brat that he has publicly, then he`s this creature of Fred Trump`s child rearing that you didn`t have to tell me about. It was just ridiculously obvious about this public buffoon who then became president.

TRUMP: Yes. And I think what`s good about what`s happening in these hearings is that it is behaviors might -- the truth about his behavior might be reaching a broader audience, and including the people who were with him all the time, and yet still seemed surprised.

I believe it was Cassidy Hutchinson who said in her deposition, a couple of hearings ago, that she was very surprised that instead of doing his best to calm things down when the crowd started asking, wanting Mike Pence to be hanged, he poured gasoline on the fire.

Well, of course, because that`s what he does, when he feels cornered, when he feels threatened. And we need to dispel the myth that for reasons I don`t understand, some people continue to hold about him that, you know, his bullying is strength, or his bluster is forthrightness somehow, and just see him for what he is. He`s a development mentally arrested, seriously psychologically disordered human being who has no right to be anywhere near the levers of power. And if anybody is still willing to support him and wants to keep them in power, then we need to be very concerned about those people.


O`DONNELL: What were you -- what struck you most powerfully in today`s testimony?

TRUMP: The brazenness, the absolutely unabashedly calls for violence. And again, not surprising, but that he was literally saying, I want these people armed to the teeth to accompany me to the Capitol, and for what, we can only imagine how much worse his presence there might have made things, and how out of control he was, how just completely unconcerned about anybody`s well being the only thing he cared about was his clinging to power, even though he knew he lost. He`s always known he lost. He can maybe convince himself and in some moments that he didn`t, but he knows he lost.

And he was willing to sacrifice anything, including the lives of his vice president, his Secret Service, Congress people who`ve been carrying his water for years, but that`s who he is. So, I think it was just the horrifying reality of the mask being torn off to the people who have been enabling him and yet Lawrence, they still kept silent, and they still protect them. It is mind blowing.

O`DONNELL: Yes. What we`re seeing in this testimony are both their stories about Donald Trump and what`s so I think horrifying about them. Shocking, I should say, and surprising to people is the setting. So, if he`s in the Presidential limousine, and he`s grabbing the steering wheel angrily telling his chauffeur go over to this nightclub, instead of that nightclub, if he was -- when he was doing that, you know, 30 years ago in Manhattan in his ridiculous limousines, that would have been yes, that`s Donald Trump out on a night on the town and he`s, you know, he`s mad at his chauffeur for taking the wrong turn or something like that. But when you put the same nut in the Presidential limousine, these are the scenes you get.

TRUMP: Yes, and again, it`s always been clear to you and me and many others. But for some reason, the message hasn`t gotten through to other people. The truth of the matter is Donald Trump respects nobody. He cares for nobody, except himself. He will do anything. He will throw anybody under the bus. He will call for the execution of somebody who thwarts him so he can get his way and stay in power because he has been conditioned over decades to believe that that`s what he deserves, even though of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

O`DONNELL: So, Rudy Giuliani Mark Meadows asked Donald Trump for pardons and they don`t get them. And the thinking what, that we have served him so well, surely, surely there will be a fair exchange here.

TRUMP: That is always one of the biggest mysteries do these people learn nothing. They -- They`ve seen dozens of people who have committed their careers to Donald who have given everything to Donald from microcode on down, they`ve always seen how it ends, and that is badly for the person who is loyal to Donald to a fault because it`s a one way street.

He feels no compunction about being disloyal to them. It`s like people who smoke who say they`re going to be the only ones who aren`t going to get cancer. It`s just incredible. And I really think that people like Meadows and Giuliani are so addicted to power that they think it`s going to protect them somehow.

O`DONNELL: Mary Trump, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We always appreciate it.

TRUMP: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNEL: Thank you. David Cay Johnston and Tim O`Brien know Donald Trump`s history of intimidating witnesses. They will join us next.


CHENEY: I think most Americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify untruthfully presents very serious concerns.





CHENEY: What they said to me is as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I`m on the right team. I`m doing the right thing. I`m protecting who I need to protect. You know, I`ll continue to stay in good graces in Trump world. And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts. And just keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee.

Here`s another sample in a different context. This is a call received by one of our witnesses. Quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. He wants me to let you know he`s thinking about you. He knows you`re loyal and you`re going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. I think most Americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify. untruthfully presents very serious concerns.



O`DONNELL: Joining us now is David Kay Johnston, Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter who has done extensive reporting on Donald Trump`s finances. Also with us, Tim O`Brien, senior columnist for Bloomberg Opinion and author of "Trump Nation." Thank you both very much.

You both have familiarity with how Donald Trump deals with witnesses. Tim O`Brien, let me begin with you since you were a litigant with Donald Trump, he sued you by -- because of your report that he was not as rich as he said he was this is many years ago. And of course, you won that lawsuit. But what have you -- what have you seen in the past about the way Donald Trump deals with potential witnesses who could do him some damage?

TIM O`BRIEN, BLOOMBERG OPINION SENIOR COLUMNIST: Well, you know, in my case, he encouraged people in his own organization to lie about their interactions with me, including Alan Weisselberg. You know, but I was relatively small potatoes in the larger scheme of things.

You know, he`s never had this kind of sweeping investigation, you know, of this magnitude focused on him before. But all of the, you know, the tarot cards were on the table a long time ago, given the way that he rolled, he is always tried to corrupt or manipulate the legal and regulatory apparatus in New York and Atlantic City that was put in place to sort of constrain the predations of people like him.

And he wasted very little time, if he felt that regulators or law enforcement authorities or business competitors were in his way to try to smear them publicly in the press, or to use money to the extent that he was able to bring them over to his side, offer them jobs, coax them into changing their stories, if he needed, you know, regulatory uplift.

I think the things you`re seeing now, we really began to get the first I think, taste of that when he campaigned for president and he went after people like judge Curiel, who was sitting on the Trump University case, and one of the Trump University cases and he smeared Curiel publicly as not being a real American judge in order to intimidate him, and I think coerce him into ruling differently on that suit.

We saw then during the Mueller investigation in spades when he went -- when he, you know, he praised people like Roger Stone, who said they do anything for Donald Trump and signaled to people like Paul Manafort, that he should be a good loyal member of the Trump mob. Trump rolled like a mob boss in those years and still does.

And we saw that play out later on into the impeachment proceedings when you know, Maria Yovanovitch, during the middle of her testimony, during an impeachment proceeding, Trump began tweeting at her and try think trying to intimidate her in real time during his testimony.

And I think that this comes from obviously, his sense of entitlement. He is a wealthy man who never felt the rules applied to him. He is an unhinged narcissist. So he can`t oftentimes help but try to indulge his own needs. And he rolls like a mob boss, and he looks at the world like a mob boss looks at the world. And David,

O`DONNELL: And David, I`m thinking of the famous case of Stormy Daniels, where he tried in her case it was to purchase her silence. And it turns out he rented it. He purchased it for a while, it lasted a while before it fell apart. So he`s approached silencing people in many different ways.

DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW LECTURER: The most expensive fraction of a minute in Donald`s life. But remember, Stormy Daniels also said she was approached by an intimidating stranger. And well, we don`t have any proof that in fact, Donald was behind that it fits his lifelong pattern of such things. Donald threatens all the time to sue people to completely ruin you if you don`t do his bidding.

And we have one really well documented case of witness tampering by Donald. Donald was very deeply involved with a three-time felon named Joseph Wechselmum (ph), who confessed to being a major international cocaine smuggler. The man had worked for Donald. He managed his personal helicopter. He supplied Donald`s helicopters for his casino business.

And Donald wrote a letter to the judge handling the case it had been his sister, Maryanne Trump, Mary handling it. She was replaced by her best friend on the federal bench in New Jersey. And Donald wrote a letter ostensibly with the judge saying this guy is a Stand Up Guy, a credit to the community. He shouldn`t get much time but if you read the letter what it really says is keep your mouth shut pal and I`ll take care of you and when he got out of the joint he started 18 months.


The mules in the case served 20 years. Donald took care of him. That`s what Donald does. So the testimony today about the threats that were directed at witnesses and we don`t know who exactly it came from or who those witnesses are. Absolutely fits his life-long pattern.

O`DONNELL: David Kay Johnston and Tim O`Brien, thank you both for joining us again tonight. We always appreciate it. Thank you.

Coming up. How will the Justice Department react to today`s testimony? Former FBI General Counsel Andrew Weissman will join us next.




CHENEY: General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6 was justified?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we have a minute?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, I`m back. Congresswoman Cheney, could you repeat the question please?

CHENEY: Yes. General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6 was justified?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that -- can I get a clarification? Is that a moral question or are you asking a legal question?

CHENEY: I`m asking both.


CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified morally?

FLYNN: Take the Fifth.

CHENEY: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified legally?

FLYNN: Fifth.

CHENEY: General Flynn, do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America?

FLYNN: The Fifth.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now Andrew Weissmann, former FBI general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of New York. He`s a professor of practice at NYU Law School. Andrew, I`ve seen the Fifth Amendment and wrote many times, I have never seen the Fifth Amendment invoked on the question. Do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America?

Now there are limits on the fifths, right? Like if you asked me what year did you graduate from high school? I can`t take the Fifth. I actually have to be protecting a possible criminal liability.

ANDREW WEISSMANN, FORMER FBI GENERAL COUNSEL: Yes, that`s right. It is true that the Fifth Amendment is very broad, but it has to be that the answer a truthful answer would at least tend to incriminate you. But I do think that Michael Flynn did have a valid Fifth Amendment. In other words, if, for instance, he was going to say I don`t believe in that truthful transfer of power, that would be something that would tend to incriminate him. So it really depends on what he was planning on answering.

It obviously was very painful to listen to. This is a former general and government official at high positions in various administrations, and to be able to not answer those questions was really shocking.

O`DONNELL: What were the key elements of the hearing for you from a legal standpoint?

WEISSMANN: So I think there are sort of two things that stood up for me one is to go out on a limb here. I think that the issue for Merrick Garland in light of today`s hearing is not going to be can he indict the former president, it`s going to be the second question that all prosecutors need to ask, which is, should he?

It seems very clear that a thorough and comprehensive investigation by the Department of Justice is only going to strengthen what we heard today.

Let me give you an example. Everyone has been talking about Pat Cipollone, and how he has not appeared or how Michael Pence has not appeared. But the Department of Justice has the ability to issue a grand jury subpoena to both of them, which will require them to testify unless they have a valid Fifth Amendment. I don`t see either of them having a Fifth Amendment in this situation so they can learn the answers to and corroborate the witness today.

So I think that Merrick Garland is going to find himself in a position where he actually has the goods. And he will be focusing on the second question, which is whether he should put the nation through this. That is a -- that is a tough question. But I think that what came out to me today was a witness who said this is a former president who was willing to overthrow the Democratic Party, the Democratic system here and was willing to do it, even if it was at the expense of the murder by a crowd of the Vice President of the United States. It is hard to imagine that not answering the question of should you indict if you actually develop that proof that enables you to indict.


O`DONNELL: Of course, all crimes are can be legitimately prosecuted as standalone events in a person`s life. But there are serial offenders. And then there are people who could commit the same crime again, or might even be inclined to commit the same crime again. When a prosecutor is looking at someone who is inclined to commit the same crime, again, how does that weigh on the prosecutorial decision?

WEISSMANN: Well, that is a standard thing that you look at if there is one crime and the person has otherwise led a blameless life. And the crime is not that serious, that can weigh in favor of seeking to either not prosecute criminally or to seek some lesser penalty. And so that is a factor.

Here, as you note, that is not what happened. I mean you have a president who is impeached twice. You have the evidence from the Mueller investigation of obstruction, which frankly, when I listened to Liz Cheney, at the end of the hearing, I was thinking back to the numerous examples of obstruction and similar witness tampering that happened during the special counsel investigation.

And as many people know, that is a crime that prosecutors take very seriously because it undermines the very nature of what it means to have a rule of law if you allow people to obstruct justice without there being any ramifications. And clearly, in this case, the former president has a history that will weigh into the various factors that Merrick Garland will have to consider.

O`DONNELL: If Donald Trump had publicly at some point announced that I absolutely am not going to run for president again, you know, continued to insist that it was stolen and all that sort of stuff, but insisted that he`s never going to run for president again. The attorney general could then consider this a crime that Donald Trump -- an area of crime that Donald Trump cannot engage in again, because he`s not going to seek or obtain office again. So how does that affect the Attorney General`s calculation? Because it there`s different dimensions to each version of this?

WEISSMANN: You know, that`s interesting, I was thinking about that, today that when you think back to Watergate, and the difficult decision that was made by Gerald Ford to pardon, Richard Nixon, and that, you know, there obviously, people have a lot of different views on that. But one of the things that favored a pardon was that Richard Nixon had suffered at least some consequence of his actions, which was resigning the office of the presidency and in disgrace.

So I think that would be a factor. Of course, you would have to actually believe Donald Trump when he says that, you know, that`s hard to imagine that you could really take that to the bank that the President, former president would actually be able to adhere to that commitment.

O`DONNELL: Andrew Weissmann, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. We really appreciate it.

WEISSMANN: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: And today was also this is something I`ve forgotten about today was also Election Day in eight states. Steve Kornacki does not forget. He`s at the Big Board. He`ll join us next.



O`DONNELL: In addition to being historic hearing day in America, it was also Election Day with primaries and run offs in New York, South Carolina, Mississippi, Illinois, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado, and Utah. MSNBC national political correspondent Steve Kornacki is at the big board. Steve, what are the headlines?

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the headline here is in Colorado, where the events of January 6 certainly loomed large in this the Republican Senate primary for the right to take on Democratic Senator Michael Bennet this November.

What you see here is that Joe O`Dea has won. NBC News is projecting his won the Republican nomination. What was interesting in this race, the contrast between eau de and his challenger State Representative Ron Hanks. Hanks actually attended Donald Trump`s speech on January 6 that was the subject of those hearings today. He was part of the march to the Capitol on January 6. He said that the 2020 election was marred by fraud.

Democrats actually spent a lot of money in this race trying to elevate Hanks believing that his views on January 6, his views on abortion as well would make him unelectable in November so they attempted actually to elevate Hanks. That effort you see fell short Joe O`Dea has said that he accepts as legitimate the 2020 election. He also calls himself pro-choice he would vote to codify Roe versus Wade, federally if he had the opportunity to do so.

And so as I say, O`Dea wins the primary sets up a general election battle between O`Dea and Democrat Michael Bennet, Colorado, a state that`s been trending towards the Democrats very much over the last decade or two. Biden won this state by about 13 and a half points into in 2020.

The question is, is O`Dea moderate enough that in the climate of 2022, he can make this a close and competitive center race that`s one question we`re going to find out in the months ahead.


One other story of note, I think to tell you here we talk about Democrats getting involved in some of these Republican primaries. In Illinois Democrats spent upwards of $30 million trying to assure that this exactly what you`re seeing here would happen. Darren Bailey, a very conservative state senator from downstate Illinois has rocked to the Republican nomination for Governor over a much more moderate candidate Richard Irvin, the mayor of Aurora, Illinois. But Irvin wouldn`t even say whether he had voted for Donald Trump. Bailey was endorsed by Donald Trump. Democrats spent big trying to get Bailey boosted here believing again that he`d be a very beatable candidate. Bailey gets the nomination. It sets up for him a general election showdown with the incumbent governor J.B. Pritzker.

Pritzker won this seat in 2018. He got 55 percent of the vote back then. This is a gamble Democrats are taking in Illinois. They think they`ve identified a very beatable candidate. They spent very heavily. Now we`ll see if their bet pays off as they get the debt Republican opponent they were hoping for the governorship, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Steve Kornacki, thank you very much for that. We needed the update. Got it. That is tonight`s LAST WORD. MSNBC`s coverage of today`s January 6 hearing continues after this break.