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Transcript: The Last with Lawrence O'Donnell, 5/26/22

Guests: Mallory McMorrow, Chris Turner, Abigail Spanberger


Texas police changed story on engagement with the Uvalde shooter. Today, Michigan`s state senate Republicans ended their session early for the second day in a row in what state Senator Mallory McMorrow calls, quote, "a cowardly attempt to silence Democrats from speaking on the Senate floor about the slaughter of children in Texas." In 2004, a Republican Congress with President George W. Bush`s agreement let the assault weapons ban expire.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Yes, Ali, and you mentioned the students in Oxford, Michigan. We`re going to be joined tonight by Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow, who was, actually, not allowed to speak today in the Senate in Michigan. So, she will speak here, tonight, about her feelings about all of this.

ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: We have to give voice to the people who want solutions, that are prepared to do something.

Lawrence, I look forward to seeing your interview. Have a great show.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Ali. Thank you.

It`s time to die. That`s what the murderer told children before he started shooting them in their classrooms. It`s time to die. We don`t know that because the official dispensers of information controlled by Republican Governor Greg Abbott told us that, they didn`t tell us that.

We know that because a local television reporter found an eyewitness, an unnamed nine-year-old boy whose parents didn`t want him to be identified but allowed him to be interviewed. The boy hid under a table that was covered with a tablecloth. That`s why he`s alive, that tablecloth blocked the murderer from seeing this nine-year-old boy under the table.


UNIDENTIFIED BOY: We had a door in the middle, and he opened it, and he came in and, he crouch a little bit he said, it`s time to die. When he shot, it was very loud, and it hurt my ears. When I saw the bullets on the floor, it was real.


O`DONNELL: It`s time to die it was real the boy was hiding under that table with a friend. He saw his teacher get shot and killed he saw another classmate get shot and killed by the gunman as the police approached the classroom.


UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I was telling my friend to not talk because he is going to hear us. The cops said, help, if you need help. Then, we got one of the persons in my class that help. The guy overheard her, and he came in to shoot her. Then the cops barged in, into that classroom, and the guy shot the cops, and the cops just started shooting.


O`DONNELL: If that sounds like bad police work to you that the police in effect caused a little girl to be killed because they encouraged the children to say help, that is not the only possibly bad police work that happened that day. The police department in Uvalde is located 1.2 miles away from the school and it took 14 minutes from the 911 call for police to arrive at that school. They could have arrived within three minutes but they didn`t.

Republican Governor Greg Abbott went to Uvalde, Texas, yesterday to have literally the biggest press conference we have ever seen in the aftermath of the school shootings. State police officials were there. Local police officials were there.

Federal law enforcement representatives were there. Lieutenant governor was there. Both of the state`s Republican senators were there.

There -- they were all there to support the story Governor Abbott wanted to tell, a story he wanted to be true but now you know is not really close to true.


GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: Officers with the Consolidated Independent School District, they approached the government and engaged with the gunman at that time. The gunman then entered a back door and went down two short hallways and then into a classroom on the left hand side. The gunman entered into that classroom and the classroom was connected internally to another classroom.

Border Patrol Consolidated ISD officers, police, sheriffs and DPS officers converged on that classroom and a Border Patrol officer killed the gunman.


O`DONNELL: He left out that the elapsed time for what he just described there was an hour.


He left out the police officers on the scene at the school refused to go after the gunman for an hour. Greg Abbott and the Republican elected officials at that news conference including the local mayor needed a simple clean story of good guys with guns stopping the bad guy with a gun, and they need that because that story is the Republican policy for dealing with school shootings.

The Republican policy is first of all make sure that America`s mass murderers are the best equipped mass murderers in the world, and then second, when one of those well-equipped mass murderers with an AR-15 shows up at a public school, the good guy with a badge standing presumably at the front door of the school like a bank card will pull out a handgun and immediately shoot and kill the mass murderer who has arrived at the school. That mass murder is going to arrive with some amount of body armor now, we know that.

Everything is wrong with that Republican plan. Everything. Republicans have extended their plan to include the idea that the two teachers who were shot and killed in their classroom at that school both should have had guns. And instead of using their bodies to try to protect children from bullets, they should have been up and on their feet and aiming their guns, their handguns at the mass murderer with the AR-15.

The Republican plan is the teacher Eva Mireles and teacher Irma Garcia should have been doing what the police who showed up at the school could not do or were afraid to do. The police story about what happened at the school fell apart today it fell apart because it was a false construction designed to support the Republican idea that the blame for mass murders in our schools should be on school security guards who don`t stop the shooters or should be on public school teachers who don`t bring guns into their classrooms.

The school district in Uvalde, Texas, has its own police force. They have trained for events like this, but as usual, for people involved in dealing with first-time events in their lives under pressure, the training fell apart in the face of reality. That is not a problem unique to police work. The first time human beings try to do something difficult, they usually don`t do it very well.

None of those police officers who spent an hour at the school knew what to do for a variety of reasons including that they had never had to do this before in their lives. And so remember that when Senator Rafael Cruz who stood silently behind Governor Abbott yesterday tells you that teachers need to bring guns to their classrooms, teachers who have never fired a bullet at a human being in their lives, teachers who have never had to handle a handgun under pressure, teachers who could never be as well trained in the use of firearms as law enforcement officials -- those are the people who Senator Cruz wants to go into battle wants to send them into battle with mass murderers who Ted Cruz will make sure will always be armed with assault weapons -- assault weapons that Senator Cruz says the founders of this country wanted mass murderers to be able to buy at any time and they wrote that straight into the Constitution, according to Senator Cruz.

None of it can ever work. None of the Republican plan to fortify public schools with armed security guards and armed public school teachers can ever, ever work. Dozens and dozens of law enforcement officials, federal, state, local were at the school in bulletproof vests with years of training and experience and there was nothing they could do or that they would do or that they did do for one full hour. And it`s not because they are bad people, it is because they are human.

Governor Abbott has a lot of people to fire tonight in Texas, including the utterly incompetent, highest-ranking law enforcement official in Texas, director of the Department of Public Safety, Steven McCraw.


STEVEN MCCRAW, TX DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR: Obviously, this is a situation we failed in the sense that we didn`t prevent this mass attack, but I can tell you those officers that arrived on the scene and put their lives in danger, they saved other kids.


O`DONNELL: Well, he failed that`s for sure. That is what McCraw said yesterday, and there is no evidence actually that they did save other kids.

We now know, parents from outside of the school for an hour, screaming at law enforcement to do something, to do anything, screaming at them to go into the school.


Many parents said, they would go to the school themselves, with police harass those parents, and push them away from the school. One report says that law enforcement officials, actually, handcuffed a mother who is complaining to them.

Governor Abbott should be firing also Victor Escalon, who was the regional director with the Department of Public Safety Texas. He had the audacity to hold a press conference today to describe what happened at the school when he clearly did not know what happened at the school, and he had that -- he told that story without reading a carefully composed written narrative of events as he should have. That`s the professional way to do it.

Instead, he stood there and he improvised. He did it from memory, from faulty memory. He went back and forth in time and when he was lost and couldn`t continue an answer he said repeatedly, we will circle back with you. He was forced to correct a lie told by his boss yesterday, Steve McCraw.

Here is what Steve McCraw said yesterday. This is a lie.


MCCRAW: He went towards the west side of the campus which is a back door, but as he was approaching, as the governor mentioned earlier, there was a brave consolidated independent school district resource officer that approached him, engaged him, and at that time, there was not -- gunfire was not exchanged, but the subject was able to make it into the -- into the school as the governor reported.


O`DONNELL: Brave? He must know him or talk to him because he decided he was brave.

A story of a brave officer who let the gunman enter the school, that was weird enough. In today`s version under questioning by NBC`s Tom Llamas, that brave officer seemed to disappear.


TOM LLAMAS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Was there a school officer on campus and was that school officer armed? Because that`s what we`ve been told.

VICTOR ESCALON, SOUTH TEXAS REGIONAL DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: So, at this time, no, no. There was not an officer readily available, armed, no.

LLAMAS: But what was there an officer?



ESCALON: Nothing -- I can`t answer that yet. I`ll circle back with you.


O`DONNELL: And according -- and when he was asked the big question of the day, could something more have been done, his answer was -- that`s a tough question. It shouldn`t be, but he thought that was a tough question, didn`t even attempt to answer, just said that was a tough question.

So, now, according to the incompetent people running this investigation for Governor Abbott, that brave officer who had no encounter whatsoever with the gunman might not even exist. Yesterday, the gunman was shot and killed by a Border Patrol officer according to the story. Today, the police spokesman employed by Governor Abbott was so lost that he actually said the gunman was shot and killed twice.


ESCALON: Approximately an hour later, U.S. Border Patrol tactical teams arrive, they make entry. Shoot and kill the suspect. But you also had a Zavala County deputy and Uvalde police department that made entry and killed the suspect.


O`DONNELL: U.S. Border Patrol shoot and kill the suspect. Next sentence, Uvalde police department killed the suspect.

Fire that man. Fire that incompetent. They can`t do anything right.

Republicans like Greg Abbott cannot hire the right people to deal with the disasters that they create. We have never seen such law enforcement incompetence on display by the highest level of commanders of law enforcement in a state than what we have seen in Texas this week.

Greg Abbott is not serious about this investigation. Greg Abbott wants to hide as much as possible that is harmful to the Republican theory about how to handle school shootings. And so, Greg Abbott will not fire the incompetent people that he has put in charge of this investigation.

Uvalde, 18 years old.


Buffalo. 18 years old. Parkland, 19 years old. Houston, 17 years old. Sandy Hook, 20 years old. Columbine, 18 years old and 17 years old.

Greg Abbott and Texas Republicans have made sure that when a mass murderer in Texas has his 18th birthday, he can go out that day and buy his weapon of mass destruction. He can go out that day the day he turns to buy his AR- 15 and that is exactly what this murderer did because Greg Abbott wanted him to be able to do that.

The murderer legally purchased two assault weapons after turning 18 years old. All of the children in that school, all of them would be alive today if Greg Abbott and Senator Cruz and Republicans in the Texas legislature did not make sure that 18 year olds can legally buy assault weapons in Texas.

Greg Abbott and the Texas Republicans made sure that when a mass murderer turns 18, it`s time to die.

Leading off our discussion tonight is Ken Dilanian, NBC News national security correspondent, and Jim Cavanaugh, retired ATF special agent in charge and an MSNBC terrorism analyst.

Ken, let me begin with you because I know you were watching this news conference today and I saw your tweeted comments about it immediately afterwards which I which felt understated to me, but for you were pretty strong statement. You had it`s -- I`m not sure you`ve ever seen anything like what you saw today in that news conference.

KEN DILANIAN, NBC NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I was -- I was flabbergasted, Lawrence, and look, I`m trying to give these -- these police officers the benefit of the doubt there`s certainly a fog of war that develops around any of these kinds of mass shooting incidents, especially one as horrific as this. But here we are 48 hours after the incident, this department of public safety has the benefit of surveillance cameras, presumably they`ve been able to interview all the key participants.

And yet they don`t know key facts and as you said, I was just really dumbfounded because on the issue of the school resource officer who apparently doesn`t exist -- I mean, because you know that was their third story about that. Initially, they said that that school resource service officer fired at the gunman. And then yesterday as you laid out at the news conference, the director of the agency, Steve McCraw, said that the school resource officer it somehow impeded the gun or confronted him but didn`t fire his weapon. That was in some ways scandalous enough or problematic to some critics.

But now we find out that person doesn`t exist, the gunman entered unimpeded. So, look, it`s -- that`s one level of a very troubling development is that you know this public agency can`t get its story straight and now we really can`t rely on almost anything they`re saying. But really more troubling is what -- you know, is what you delved into deeply there which is the 60-minute gap, because you know as many people may know, after the Columbine shooting in 1999, the police doctrine on mass shootings really changed. And because they waited too long they decided in that incident and most mass shootings happen really quickly, like within 12 minutes, most of the people are dead.

And so, there`s a police doctrine called Immediate Action Rapid Deployment, which is essentially holds that you know you should go in with whatever force you have, whoever`s there with a gun, get in there and try to engage the shooter. And in fairness, they did try to do that according to the latest account we have, but they were repelled because they had handguns and he had a weapon of war.

And I feel like it`s fair to say that that is an uncomfortable narrative for some of those Republican politicians who are on that dais yesterday and so you didn`t really hear much about that, but that`s a key factor in this whole situation. Those officers who tried to rush in immediately were repelled, they fell back, and then they found themselves waiting for 60 minutes for the tactical team to come in.

And, you know, let`s give credit where credit is due, there was some heroism at the end there. The Border Patrol officers and also some local police officers, that was the confusion you referenced, they didn`t kill them twice, there were local police officers in the stack, they call it a stack, the person at the head of it had a ballistic shield. Those people were incredibly brave, they risked their lives.

The person in the lead was shot in the scalp and they took down that gunman and they put 15 bullets in him.

But that was 60 minutes later and the question becomes, even if most of the victims were killed at the beginning, what about the people who were wounded and bleeding?


And what are those families thinking right now about their children and whether they had a chance to survive if police had acted more quickly. There may be a good reason why they didn`t but they owe us an explanation, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: So there`s a new possible training element that they can bring to children in American schools who live under this threat, because one of the little girls who was in that classroom who survived played dead, pretended she was dead, and she covered herself with blood from her friend who was bleeding, was still alive -- was still alive and bleeding and she covered herself with her friend`s blood so that she would look dead. That friend of hers in fact did die in that time in that classroom.

And, Jim Cavanaugh, that`s something they might want to add when they`re trying to tell kids in America how to stay alive in their classrooms, that Republicans might want to suggest that to them, just cover yourself in the blood of whoever is near you on the floor of your classroom because Republicans and who are in control of this these outcomes legislatively in Washington are not going to do anything to prevent the next AR-15 from getting into a school in this country.

JIM CAVANAUGH, MSNBC TERRORISM ANALSYT: Well, you`re right, Lawrence. I mean, they have ice water in their veins up there and they`re not going to do anything on gun control. You could kill a thousand kids in American schools, there`ll be no votes for gun control on the Hill. That`s just the way it is.


CAVANAUGH: Failure --

O`DONNELL: In what we learned today, Jim, what stood out for you?

CAVANAUGH: Well, the press conference really was awful. I have to agree. I mean, I`ve commanded these large events and I`ve had press conferences, I`ve had to speak to the national media and, you know, sometimes before those I`d say go bring that detective in here that you said did that and I want to talk to him personally before I tell the media what happened, if I was unsure about the facts I was getting.

I mean, this guy went from he was shooting with the killer and then he was not shooting with the killer and now he doesn`t even exist, commanders can`t operate that way. You operate on facts only. You don`t speculate and you don`t put out stuff like that. So they had a real hard time with this.

It`s confusing the press. It`s confusing the citizens who have lost loved ones there. So that that was bad.

They`re also not outlining I think probably because some of them don`t understand really what the failures were and like Ken was so good at outlining this, he just been reporting on it all day and he spot on. These officers were break -- look they first three officers from Uvalde PD, probably the first patrol officers went right in the same doors to kill with rifles, Lawrence, and four other officers went in there. They engaged, some of them were wounded.

But they reached a breach point. This is a systemic failure in American law enforcement and we really need to fix it in policing. We`re sending people in with the rifles, they can`t breach anything. I saw this in Virginia Tech when he chained the doors. I saw the Amish school in Lancaster when he barricaded door and killed the little kids.

And I was at one of these active shooter trainings and the stack was coming in and, you know, I was a commander and I just locked the hallway door, and it blew the whole training because everybody was trying to get their rifle in their vest and to move in the triangle and to go down the hall and I locked the hallway door. Now, it was all a mess.

So police have to change that. They have to have some breaching tools. They have to have some protocol for that. You`re going to encounter locked doors.

Get the nearest hook and ladder there which can be there in three minutes and those firefighters on the hook and ladder they go through any door. They got hydraulic tools, sawzalls, Halligan tools and you protect them with your rifles if you if you haven`t prepared your department to do it. You got to get through the door.

So, I mean, that`s a failure, and I don`t think they understand that and they`re trying to say, well, what was the hour delay? Well, I think -- I think myself that was the hour delay. I think the officers were in there they were up the barricaded -- up to the barricaded locked door and they couldn`t get in.


CAVANAUGH: They didn`t figure out to get the key until BORTAC --

O`DONNELL: Well, that`s the point right there. Ken, quickly before we go, I heard Kerry Sanders reporting earlier on this network that in the end, it was simply going to the principal`s office and getting the key.

CAVANAUGH: That`s correct, Lawrence. And Frank Figliuzzi said that in his experience, local police departments generally have a master key to the school. But in this case they didn`t, and these doors had been reinforced against active shooters, ironically enough. But once they were closed and locked, they became an impediment to the officers.

But I still think there are other questions beyond the door, like why didn`t they go around to the windows. There`s -- there`s a lot of -- it really feels like as much as the door, it was also the fact that they were armed with handguns initially, and he was armed with a -- with an assault rifle.


And the other question I have is Uvalde has a SWAT team. Where -- in that headquarters a mile away that you mentioned -- where were they? Why did we have to wait an hour for a border patrol federal agents to come and take the initiative and get in there and kill the shooter, Lawrence?

O`DONNELL: Well, Governor Greg Abbott has scheduled another press conference tomorrow afternoon in Uvalde, so we will see how many of these questions if any actually get answered.

Ken Dilanian, Jim Cavanaugh, thank you both very much for starting off our conversations tonight. Really appreciate it.

DILANIAN: You bet.

O`DONNELL: And coming up, Michigan Republicans didn`t want Senator Mallory McMorrow to go viral again today, so they ended their session earlier to prevent her from speaking publicly about the Republicans` devotion, their commitment to making sure America`s mass murderers are the best equipped mass murderers in the world.

Senator Mallory McMorrow will join us next.



LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Today, Michigan`s state senate Republicans ended their session early for the second day in a row in what our next guest calls, quote, "a cowardly attempt to silence Democrats from speaking on the senate floor about the slaughter of children in Texas".

This is the speech Michigan State Senator Mallory McMorrow, who will join us in a moment, wanted to give on the senate floor.


MALLORY MCMORROW (D), MICHIGAN STATE SENATOR: Back in November, after a school shooting rocked our state and community, an Oxford High School dad called my office, sobbing. He explained that his wife hadn`t eaten and had barely moved. But he felt like he had to try to keep them together, which is why he called me and why he had already been in touch with parents in Parkland to try to figure out how to move forward and learning that you can`t -- never fully. I told him, I can`t imagine what you are going through right now.

As I watched news coverage of the shooting in Texas that left 19 children dead, I heard others say the same thing. I can`t imagine what these parents are going through right now.

Why do we say that? Because it feels selfish to try to put ourselves in their experience. It feels proper to keep a distance, to give them space and time to grieve. But what if that is the problem? What if an attempt to be polite makes it far too easy to distance ourselves, to not feel their pain? To keep it abstract and reduce the urgency of the issue? You have been called to this moment to do something.

Don`t say that it is impossible. Don`t say that we cannot do anything. Don`t say that now is not the time. Because, as I said, in November, following Oxford, the only thing that I know for sure is that doing nothing will not stop this from happening. It will not stop this one or the next one or the one after that or the one after that.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now Democratic State Senator Mallory McMorrow of Michigan and Democratic state representative Chris Turner of Texas. He is the chair of the Texas House Democrat Caucus.

And Senator McMorrow, let me begin with you. What are your hopes tonight for what might be possible in the Michigan legislature?

MCMORROW: Well, what I hope is possible is that we vote out all of these Republicans who are standing in the way of sensible gun reform. We have been putting up dozens of bills for years. Not just in response to the Oxford High School shooting and they have blocked every single one. So my message is that this has to be a single issue for voters. And we have to vote them out.

O`DONNELL: Representative Turner, Governor Abbott is going to have a second attempt at a press conference in Uvalde tomorrow. What would you like to ask him?

CHRIS TURNER (D), TEXAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: When are you going to do something? You know, three years ago, we demanded after the El Paso mass shooting that left 23 people dead in a Walmart that the governor call a special session, (INAUDIBLE) actually work with Democrats and Republicans to pass common sense gun-safety legislation. He did nothing. He waited for the moment to pass and then he moved on.

So, when is he going to do something? When is he going to show some leadership? That is what I would ask him.

O`DONNELL: Senator McMorrow, what was it like for you to have one of these incidents so close to home in Oxford, Michigan?

MCMORROW: You know, for the past 48 hours since seeing what happened in Texas, I`ve been texting back and forth with a constituent of mine, who`s a teacher at Oxford who lost one of her kids and it is just devastating.

I lost somebody that I grew up with in the Virginia Tech shooting. And the more people I meet who share this experience, this is the new shared American experience and it is devastating for our country.

O`DONNELL: Representative Turner, Republicans in Texas seem to believe, as we do, that this will happen again. And that this will happen again in Texas. And they are so confident in that that they are talking about the ways to fortify schools and to make sure that there is someone with a gun at the school, possibly at the entrance of the school.

Despite the lesson of Uvalde that it doesn`t matter how many guns you have, it`s not going to work the way you think it`s going to work. And even with all those guns running into the school after this shooter, the shooter was still able to do what he wanted to do.


TURNER: Yes. And those are not new ideas, by the way. If you go back several mass shootings, 2018, 2019, Republicans in the legislature brought forward their ideas to harden schools, invest more in school safety, school resource officers and other (ph) services. And by the way, those were bipartisan efforts.

We certainly supported those things. Those are good things. But that`s a -- it`s a very incomplete answer. But if they think it is the whole answer, then why didn`t those things work?

They were done three years ago. We passed legislation three years ago. You know, we`ve had this hold of tragedy this week. We`ve got to address the gun issue in this country and in the state. That is the only way we`re going to end this.

O`DONNELL: Texas House Democratic leader Chris Turner and Michigan state senator Mallory McMorrow, thank you both very much for joining this discussion tonight.

MCMORROW: Thank you.

TURNER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: And coming up, guns don`t kill people, bullets do. The Uvalde mass murderer was able to use high capacity magazines that Democrats outlawed and then when Republicans took power made legal. That is next.



O`DONNELL: In 2004, a Republican Congress with President George W. Bush`s agreement let the assault weapons ban expire. It had been law for ten years, a law passed by Democrats in Congress. The ban included a prohibition on large capacity magazines which was defined as anything more than ten bullets.

The mass murderer at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas had seven 30- round magazines with him -- that`s 210 bullets. He murdered 19 children, and two teachers.

And I will repeat now, what I said, in 2011 after the shooting of Congresswoman Gaby Giffords in Tucson, Arizona. I blame the murderer for the first bullets, and I blame the law for everything after that.

Joining us now, Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger of Virginia. She`s a former CIA officer and a former federal law enforcement officer. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

I was quite struck by something you said yesterday about that period when any magazine above ten was illegal for us and it was something that only federal authority could have.

REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA): Well Lawrence, when I first began my career as a federal agent, that was when this law was still in place. And I had magazines that were marked for law enforcement use only. And so just reflecting on the reality that large capacity magazines contribute to the massive number of fatalities that we see across the country and this fares out in numbers.

In a study between 1990, and 2017, there was a 62 percent higher death toll for the mass murderers that utilized a large capacity magazine. You mentioned the shooting of Congresswoman Gabriel Giffords, and in fact, they were able to tackle that murderer when he stopped to reload. Someone who is there, in the moment, when he stopped to reload, that`s when they were able to tackle him.

We know in Parkland, students were able to escape when the killer down a staircase, when the killer stopped to reload. So it`s about a vital reality that in those moments, that`s when law enforcement or Good Samaritans or people who are running for their lives, have the ability to flee.

And we know that in Dayton, Ohio, At least 41 rounds were shot, in fewer than 30 seconds. In Las Vegas it was 100 rounds in ten seconds. The level of lethality of these large capacity magazines are tremendous. And that`s why it was such an important element of this law, from 1994 to 2004.

And certainly, I remember firsthand, my magazine was different because I was trained to utilize that firearm, I was in a position of trust. I swore an oath to the constitution that I would be protecting my neighbors, upholding the constitution and it was for that reason that I had a government-issued firearm and government-issued larger capacity magazines.

O`DONNELL: How about a bill, just a stand-alone bill, try to get it through the United States Senate that is simply to ban magazines above the capacity of ten.

SPANBERGER: I think there could be traction on that. Certainly, limits on large capacity magazines is again part of the bill -- the assault weapons ban of 2021 that has been introduced this Congress, that was introduced in prior Congress as well as the assault weapons ban of 2019.

But I think that that could be an important step forward. Certainly we know the data show that when there are limits on large capacity magazines the lethality of mass murder events is lower because these killers can shoot fewer people.


SPANBERGER: And Lawrence, I recognize that we are talking about how to limit deaths, but we are in a circumstance where every option for how we can save lives, when we are witnessing babies dying in classrooms, and elderly citizens who are at a grocery store on a beautiful Saturday afternoon dying while they`re shopping for their groceries. We have to do something.

And you know, when we look at the types of firearms that these killers choose to use time and time again, the AR-15 is a weapon of choice.

You know, notably, according to federal law, you have to be 21 years old to get a handgun but 18 years old to get an AR-15. You know, this is the result of the laws just not keeping up with the technology and the types of firearms out there in the marketplace. We need to raise that limit, and there`s a stand-alone bill to do that.

So just as you have to be 18 to get a handgun, you have to be 18 to get an AR-15. An extreme risk protective order, certainly, we saw after Parkland, Florida introduced and signed into law, extreme risk protective order legislation because so frequently, friends and family, community members they know when something is wrong.

And just as they did in Florida, they reported to law enforcement. But law enforcement can take no action if there are not laws on the books that say, when someone is in a potential point of crisis, with the authority of the law, that person`s firearms can be temporarily restrained for their own safety, for the community`s safety.

Done wholly legally with due process but recognizing that states that have ERPOs also called gun violence restraining orders GVROs in place have lower rates of suicide by gun, have lower rates of domestic partners, frequently women, being murdered by a domestic partner, and lower rates of death to law enforcement.

Because when someone is in a point of crisis, surely, we have seen mass atrocities, but in most cases, they turn the firearm on those closest to them, themselves, and the law enforcement officers who respond to those emergencies.

Limiting large capacity magazines, raising the age at which one can get an assault style weapon, if we are not taking the full step of putting a full production stoppage in place. And utilizing federal legislation to encourage the adoption of ERPOs nationwide.

These are steps we could take that would save lives. And I urge my colleagues and people across the country to recognize that these are common sense steps that will save future families from the horror that so many families in Texas and in New York are feeling right now, as well as so many others before them.

O`DONNELL: Representative Abigail Spanberger, thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us tonight.

SPANBERGER: Thank you for having me.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the "New York Times" is reporting new information about what Donald Trump was thinking and saying during the attack on the Capitol when the attackers were threatening to "hang Mike Pence".

Daniel Goldman will join us next.



O`DONNELL: The January 6 Committee has testimony that details what Donald Trump really felt about the attack on the capitol. The "New York Times" reports, "Shortly after hundreds of rioters at the Capitol started chanting, `hang Mike Pence` on January 6, the White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, left the dining room of the Oval Office, walked into his own office and told colleagues that President Donald J. Trump was complaining that the vice president was being whisked to safety.

Mr. Meadows, according to an account provided to the House Committee investigating January 6, then told the colleagues that Mr. Trump had said something to the effect of `maybe Mr. Pence should be hanged`.

Joining us now, Daniel Goldman, who served as a House impeachment inquiry majority counsel for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. He is a former assistant U.S. attorney in New York, and an MSNBC legal analyst.

And Dan, a couple of things here. One is there`s the quote about maybe Pence should be hanged. But there is the part there where Donald Trump was complaining -- complaining that the vice president was being whisked to safety -- being brought to safety. What do you make of that part of it?

DANIEL GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I have very little else to say other than that is just sociopathic. I mean to actually be rooting for your own vice president not to be taken to safety, so that he would be subject to a mob that was screaming, "hang Mike Pence" is impossible to fathom from the president of the United States.

O`DONNELL: What does it mean, on an evidentiary level, Dan? What does it tell you as you`re sifting the evidence of Donald Trump`s involvement in all of this, when you come across this, in the middle of the evidence? That he is saying, that he is complaining about the vice president being brought to safety?

GOLDMAN: That -- you know, it reminds me also -- you raise a very good point. It reminds me also of the comment that he allegedly made to Kevin McCarthy one McCarthy was telling him to stop. And he said, well Kevin, maybe they like me more than you do, or something to that effect.

I mean he`s almost taunting these people. But the evidentiary value is that it shows his knowledge and his intent. He cannot claim that he did not want to overturn the election when he was sitting there, rooting on the insurrectionists.


GOLDMAN: So all of this information goes into, you know, a big bowl of intent and knowledge. And he will say, oh well, I said, you know, don`t be violent when I went to the ellipse, and I qualified everything that I said for the previous two months.

But then, when you just throw in all of the other indications and statements and comments and actions that he made, that show that he knew that it was a lie, he pushed the lie and then he rooted for the insurrectionist to interfere with the electoral count. All of that goes to his intent.

And I am very interested to see if we will hear from a witness who will say that at the public hearings for the January 6 Committee. That would be incredibly powerful testimony.

O`DONNELL: Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining us again tonight.

GOLDMAN: My pleasure.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

We`ll be right back.



O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s LAST WORD.