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Kelly "fully aware" of allegations. TRANSCRIPT: 2/8/2018. The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

Guests: Joy Vance, Ruth Marcus, Margaret Carlson, Toni Van Pelt

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: February 8, 2018 Guest: Joy Vance, Ruth Marcus, Margaret Carlson, Toni Van Pelt

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.

But what if there`s a miracle solution say, I don`t know in 10:30 or 11:30 or --

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": Then I will take my donut holes and go home and walk my dog.

O`DONNELL: All right. I`ll stick around if you stick around. And if they`re still crashing into a government shutdown, I guess I`ll be here at 1:00, oh.

MADDOW: The problem is that this is going to be a government shutdown that probably lasts for a matter of hours which probably means we`re covering the entire duration of the shutdown live, I guess.

O`DONNELL: Oh, OK. That could be history making television in its way.

MADDOW: I know.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

MADDOW: Yes, I have a feeling this is not going to be a record-breaking night, if you know what I mean.

O`DONNELL: Oh, save me some donuts, Rachel.

MADDOW: I will do. Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Well, the White House is lying. It is as simple as that, and John Kelly is hiding tonight, afraid to explain himself to the American people. This is the same John Kelly who eagerly stepped up to the White House microphone to defend President Trump when he was criticized for the way he handled a condolence call to a widow of a soldier killed in action.

That was the last time that John Kelly stepped up to that White House press briefing microphone because he got caught in an ugly stream of lies when he did that -- lies about a woman -- he famously lied about Congresswoman Frederica Wilson, he got caught in that lie, he never apologized for it, he never stepped up to that microphone again to apologize for those lies.

And so, now, the proven liar, proven liar John Kelly, is hiding behind the White House press spokesperson who he sent out there to lie today. And here is the big lie that John Kelly pushed today to the White House spokesperson Raj Shah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJ SHAH, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: We know there`s been some reports about the chief of staff, he became fully aware about these allegations yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: It was a very tough day for the junior guy to go up to that microphone and try to do John Kelly`s lying for him.

John Kelly`s defense all comes down to the meaning of the word fully. He only became fully aware that Rob Porter was convincingly accused of beating both of his wives yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Did he know any of this back in November?

SHAH: Again, I`m not going to get into the specifics.

REPORTER: You use the term "fully aware", I don`t understand what that means. What does that mean John Kelly knew or didn`t know? What is --

SHAH: Well, I do know for instance that you he had not seen images prior to his statement -- the statement on Tuesday night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Yes, he did know this back in November and yes, he may have seen those images back in November or certainly heard about it when did John Kelly see the photographs of the black eye, there it is, that Rob Porter delivered to his first wife, Colbie Holderness, with a single punch.

John Kelly continued -- after seeing that photograph, he continued to save Rob Porter`s job in the White House and it wasn`t until 12 hours after seeing that photograph and after losing the battle to save Rob Porter`s job that John Kelly put out a statement written with the help of Rob Porter`s new girlfriend, White House communications director Hope Hicks saying: I was shocked by the new allegations released today against Rob Porter, there is no place for domestic violence in our society. I stand by my previous comments of the Rob Porter that I have come to know since becoming chief of staff.

The day before, on the first accusations of abuse against Rob Porter became public, John Kelly did not say there is no place for domestic violence in our society. He could not bring himself to even say that. He just said what a great guy Rob Porter is. Just said what a great honor it is to work beside him at the White House, said he couldn`t say enough good things about him.

John Kelly is lying about being shocked by the second day of accusations against Rob Porter, because multiple news organizations are reporting that the FBI told John Kelly in November what they had discovered about Rob Porter in their background investigations. Some reports indicate he was told as early as August. And John Kelly chose to ignore it.

Colbie Holderness showed her photos to the FBI. John Kelly knew there were photos. The FBI would have no reason not to tell him what they knew about Rob Porter, the FBI who have had no reason not to tell him that they saw the photos. Maybe -- might have even showed those photos to John Kelly.

And so, John Kelly decided not to believe what the two women told the FBI. Does that mean that John Kelly decided that those two women committed the crime of lying to the FBI? Did John Kelly decide that those two women were the kind of women who would just sit there and commit the crime of lying to the FBI? Does it mean Rob Porter lied to the FBI? Is there a crime here?

Here`s Jennifer Willoughby, Rob Porter`s second wife, telling NBC`s Kristen Welker about her conversations with the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Can you tell me what specifically you told them?

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, ROB PORTER`S EX-WIFE: I shared with them the details of my marriage. The same as have been in the interviews and articles that have come out.

WELKER: And one of the questions was, could he potentially be blackmailed? How did you answer that question?

WILLOUGHBY: I actually had difficulty answering that question because I believe that the people who had the power to blackmail him would be women who have been in personal relationships with him. So in short the answer could be maybe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Is it possible that the FBI did not think that that was something the White House chief of staff should know? That Rob Porter`s second wife says maybe he could be blackmailed?

Jennifer Willoughby is not hiding, like John Kelly. She submitted to an extensive television earlier tonight on CNN. She has appeared on video now, in multiple interviews. You can look at her, listen to her, read what she has written about her, you can judge her credibility.

But you can`t do that with John Kelly because John Kelly is hiding. John Kelly won`t let you hear his voice talking about this. John Kelly is afraid of stepping up to that microphone, afraid of looking into the cameras and answering questions about what he knew and when he knew it, and why he continued to fight for Rob Porter`s job even after he saw those black eye photos.

Joining us now is Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor and columnist for "The Washington Post". Also with us, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney for the northern district of Alabama, and a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, and Ned Price, a former senior director and spokesperson for the National Security Council and former CIA analyst. He`s an MSNBC national security analyst.

And, Ruth, I just want to get your reaction, because this is a moving story with new elements coming out by the hour, to -- your reaction about where this story stands tonight?

RUTH MARCUS, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, the phrase fully aware is possibly the most maddening phrase I`ve ever heard here. If General Kelly was not fully aware of the allegations against Rob Porter, it`s only because he chose not to make himself fully aware, because he heard something and, you know, they`re in this tribal mentality, circle the wagons in this White House.

They convince themselves this is part of the smear campaign against Rob Porter orchestrated by his political enemies. And they just -- they didn`t want to know. So, if he didn`t see this photo before yesterday, it`s just because he didn`t want to see the photo before yesterday.

But when he saw the photo yesterday, let`s be clear about the timeline. That photo came out yesterday morning. They continued to talk about the confidence that the president and the chief of staff had in Rob Porter through the briefing. It was not until more than a dozen hours after that photo came out that General Kelly professed, and I mean professed, to say he was shocked by what he had seen and that -- and to finally to choke out, as you say, and pardon the terrible pun, that domestic abuse has no place in our society.

These people do not take this abuse seriously. And finally, when the president said, through a spokesman, that he was saddened by this photo? I`m sorry, saddened? That photo does not make saddened. That photo should make you sick to your stomach that somebody could do that to another human being, no less according to her, somebody who was married to him -- somebody she was married to.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance, please feel free to respond to any aspect of this story, but I`d like to go to your legal expertise to the question of the FBI is involved in this. Could there be a crime? Could one of Rob Porter`s wives, or both, have lied to the FBI? Would that be a crime?

Rob Porter, might he has lied to the FBI? Would the FBI having picked up this information from his wives go back to Rob Porter as the subject of the investigation ask him about that?

But as a fact finder when John Kelly is sitting there, getting this information for the first time in the White House, this is not just information that the wives picked up through some unofficial channels. John Kelly, to not believe them, has to believe that they were willing to commit the crime of lying to the FBI.

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You`re exactly right. This information comes to the White House counsel and to the chief of staff filtered through the FBI background process. It`s a federal felony, a federal crime to make a material false statement in a matter that`s within the jurisdiction of the executive branch and a backgrounding exercise, where FBI agents go out and interview both someone who seeks a position and everyone who`s involved in their background would be a qualifying proceeding.

So, for Kelly to discount the stories that come from the wives and ex- girlfriend, he would have to believe that they spoke to FBI agents during the background process or the FBI employees conducting that background process, and that they were willing to expose themselves to the risk of lying to those agents. Essentially, that`s what he has to have believed to have discounted their stories.

O`DONNELL: Ned Price, you and I were speaking about this earlier today, the mystery of how long it was taking on this security clearance, and you offered the possible theory that it was possible that the FBI recommendation was simply they concluded their investigation and recommended against giving him a security clearance.

That is being reported tonight by "The Huffington Post" after you theorized it this afternoon in a conversation with me. Here`s "The Huffington Post" reporting that Porter had failed his security clearance investigation because of the domestic abuse reports. Porter at that time told Kelly he would leave the White House in December, but agreed to stay at Kelly`s urging, a Republican said, on condition of anonymity.

Ned, your reaction to that?

NED PRICE, FORMER SENIOR DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Right, Lawrence. There`s more here than meets the eye. The statements coming out of the White House just cannot be true. They are contradictory.

In fact, the White House claimed earlier today that Rob Porter`s background investigation was ongoing. But you have to remember the timeline here. You have to remember that Rob Porter became staff secretary on January 20, 2017, the first day of the administration. That suggests to me that his background investigation and vetting process started late 2016 or at the latest early 2017.

So, for him not to have a full permanent security clearance by early 2018, that suggests something very, very wrong was uncovered in his background investigation. And now we know. That also suggests to me, especially when coupled with the fact that John Kelly reportedly was briefed on this in November or even earlier, in the early fall, that John Kelly concluded that he wanted Rob Porter to stay. He wanted Rob Porter to continue serving as staff secretary even though the FBI would never be able to complete its background investigation knowing that Rob Porter would never have a permanent security clearance.

And for a job as sensitive as Rob Porter`s staff secretary, the person who`s responsible of overseeing every piece of paper that goes to the president`s desk, that`s -- it`s unfathomable.

O`DONNELL: And Joyce Vance, I want to go to reporting in the "New York Times" tonight. They are saying that Mr. Porter`s case raised questions about what Mr. Kelly knew and when. The White House was informed as far back as August that Mr. Porter`s security clearance was being held up because of domestic violence allegations.

Joyce, what does that mean as far back as August, the White House has found out there`s a serious problem?

VANCE: It`s incredible they kept Porter on for this period of time, knowing that as staff secretary he handled every piece of paper that entered the Oval Office and knew that security clearance wouldn`t be forthcoming. This would have been unfathomable in the Obama White House. And even through U.S. attorneys as we completed our interviews going through that background process, at the interview process, at the end of that interview, there was a moment where the people involved in the interview in the room would excuse themselves and the nominee, the candidate would sit alone with a couple of the interviewers.

And then they would ask what we call the sex, drugs and rock and roll question. They would say, is there anything else in your background that might be embarrassing to the president of the United States? And so, the process, it`s so hard to contemplate the gap between the severity with which backgrounds were investigated during the Obama administration and the apparently laxness here. These sorts of people don`t belong in the White House serving in the name of the American people.

O`DONNELL: Ruth, I want to read you something from the "New York Times" report that has just come out, and it`s about John Kelly in particular and the way he`s handled this because it`s looking like the only reason Rob Porter was still in the White House after failure to pass the background check is John Kelly. And "The New York Times", it says, friends and associates noted that with Mr. Kelly`s lack of experience in Washington politics, he may not have been attuned at first to how the domestic abuse allegations against Mr. Porter would be perceived.

And, Ruth, I knew how they would be perceived when I was in elementary school in Boston at the same time John Kelly was.

MARCUS: Indeed, I`m actually trying to figure out if you`re allowed to hit the palm of your hand against your head on television.

That`s just unbelievable because this is not a matter of political judgment I`m thinking about when we couldn`t quite -- nobody was quite sure how to think about Zoe Baird`s failure to pay her nanny taxes when she was Bill Clinton`s nominee to be attorney general. Come on.

Right. Any child knows, any grown up knows, anybody with a speck of moral principle knows that domestic abuse is to be taken seriously.

And, by the way, let me just point out, that General Kelly is the one who told us that he really felt nostalgic for the days when women were held sacred. Sacred, you know, don`t hit them.

I need to keep going for a second here. "The Times" reports that the photo was sent to the FBI agent or given to the FBI agent on January 27, 2017. The FBI -- I would be very surprised if the FBI just somehow kept that information from the White House during that whole time until the next fall. That would be really surprising.

And, by the way, this is not just a question about background checks. Yes, we want to make sure that people with security clearances aren`t subject to blackmail, but there`s a more fundamental point here, which is we want to make sure that people working in the White House, who are representing our government are not beating their wives or have not beaten their wives in the past. It`s a moral question. It`s not only a security question.

O`DONNELL: Before we go to a break here, I want to get an answer on this issue of, from Ned Price and Joyce Vance, do you believe if the FBI was in possession of those photographs, the black eye photographs for the last year and this security clearance was being held up, do you -- is it likely the FBI would have showed that photograph to John Kelly?

Joyce Vance, what do you think?

VANCE: I think absolutely. They would have gone back to the potential candidate for the office and asked him to explain the photograph. And then they would have gone to his future boss.

There is no doubt that the FBI would have discussed that. And what I think what needs to happen now, we need to have access to that FBI report and see what it reflects.

O`DONNELL: Ned, with your experience with thee kind of background investigations, the FBI had the photograph for over a year now, would they have shown it to John Kelly?

PRICE: Absolutely. I agree with Joyce. John Kelly would have been derelict if he didn`t go back to the FBI and say, why sit that this senior White House official, my staff secretary, doesn`t yet have a permanent security clearance? And I think at that point, the FBI would be certainly within their right to show John Kelly those photos and those photos would tell the entire story.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance and Ned Price, thank you very much for joining us.

Ruth, please stay with us.

Coming up, a special rewrite later in the hour, abuse survivors speak and tell us how they got the strength to leave their violent husbands and what this story means to them.

And we`re following the action live tonight on the Senate floor where we may be on our way to another government shutdown as Republican Senator Rand Paul is holding up the spending bill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: -- press spokesman was asked today if the president still had confidence in his staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does the president retain full confidence in his chief of staff?

SHAH: Yes.

REPORTER: In his White House counsel?

SHAH: Absolutely.

REPORTER: In his communications director?

SHAH: Yes, absolutely. The president has confidence in his chief of staff, counsel and communications director.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining the discussion now, Toni Van Pelt, president of the National Organization for Women, also with us, Margaret Carlson, columnist for "The Daily Beast", and Ruth Marcus is still with us.

Toni Van Pelt, your reaction to this story?

TONI VAN PELT, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN: My reaction is that John Kelly should be gone. The women of America deserve better in our White House.

O`DONNELL: I want to go to something we heard from Jennifer Willoughby tonight on CNN, and this is about Rob Porter intervening with her, trying to get her to change her story about their marriage. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, EX-WIFE OF ROB PORTER: I had been in contact with Rob a lot in the last two weeks as he gave me some warning that stories might break and knew people might be sniffing around my blog post.

We were in contact even a couple days ago as he was asking me to release a statement about my blog post and I went back and forth with him for an hour or so about what language I would be comfortable with and the language he asked I wasn`t comfortable with. And he came out with that statement less than an hour later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Margaret Carlson, she had already talked to the FBI almost a year ago at that point and changing that story after telling it to the FBI would be incurring, to put it mildly, some legal difficulties.

MARGARET CARLSON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes. The FBI believed these two women.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

CARLSON: It was in a report. Even if, quote, fully aware, General John Kelly wasn`t, he was partly aware, and rarely in these cases where you have a person who obviously has two distinct personalities do you have an FBI report, do you have that kind of evidence about the domestic abuse. It`s usually much hazier than that.

And this idea that you need a photo to convince you when the wording in those reports and those two women and what they had to say, they were believed by the FBI, sufficient so that he didn`t get a security clearance.

An intelligent four-star general shouldn`t need a picture. You know, kids need picture books, you know those big picture books with just a few words, but adults have fully developed brains where the FBI report would have been more than sufficient for General John Kelly to know that he could not keep a person of this character on the staff.

O`DONNELL: Both of Rob Porter`s wives are Mormon, as Rob Porter is, his family is. And so, they both say they consulted Mormon bishops and Mormon bishops were not helpful, they told them to kind of hang in, which is something that the priests in the Catholic Church, as Margaret you know, have been doing for decades, for generations, for forever. I think they`ve grown out of it recently, luckily.

But let`s listen to a former Mormon bishop, this is Senator Orrin Hatch. And Rob Porter used to be his chief of staff. And this is Senator Hatch today, after all of the information is out and after more than 24 hours of being able to look at the black eye photo, this is Senator Hatch today. This is what both of these wives have been up against. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you believe these allegations against him? Do you believe the women?

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: I don`t believe them all, but I -- I think there`s enough there that you have to take it very seriously.

REPORTER: Did he describe to you which allegations he believes have validity?

HATCH: No. No.

REPORTER: OK, you didn`t get into that.

HATCH: No, and I didn`t want to the either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Toni Van Pelt, that is a perfect manifestation of what these accusers have been up against apparently in the White House and the people in the Mormon Church that they confided in leading up to this.

VAN PELT: Yes, cover up, denial, enabling. This is what we have to stop in the country. We have to stop from mom and pop businesses, corporate America, the Halls of Congress, in the White House, they have to institute a policy to end this denial, these cover ups. It`s men protecting men. It`s not OK.

We expect them to protect women in our society from violence. These people -- these men, they`re harming their family members and they`re serving in our White House. They`re serving in our government.

It`s not OK. It`s got to end and we want it to stop today.

O`DONNELL: I want to go back to the White House press briefing today because it really is a John Kelly production from start to finish. He sent Raj Shah out there to tell the story and to pretend that it was yesterday`s news that changed everything for John Kelly, which means it was the photograph that changed everything for John Kelly.

Let`s listen to this reporter asking about what about women who don`t have photographs.

VAN PELT: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What about women who don`t have photographs? Do you trust their stories? Because a lot of times you haven`t been at the podium but, Sarah, said allegations weren`t credible from people. Do you need a photograph and what should -- how should women feel if they don`t have a photograph?

SHAH: I don`t think any standard applies. I just think that we do take allegations of misconduct, of domestic violence, other issues like that, seriously, we are concerned about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Ruth Marcus, we just heard from our previous guests with vast experience on this, they believe it is extremely likely that John Kelly saw those photographs possibly as long as a year ago.

MARCUS: And if he didn`t, it was only because he couldn`t have been bothered to see them. Remember, there was a different White House chief of staff initially --

O`DONNELL: Right. I`m sorry about that. That`s right.

MARCUS: So, there are others who may be similarly implicated in simply not being bothered enough by these allegations to look into them in any kind of serious way. I think that the point about pressure on the -- both of the former wives to stay silent, there`s some reporting about some officials of the church saying, well, Rob has a career, we have to think about his career.

And then I think I saw Senator Hatch quoted, in addition to what you showed, that he thought Porter should be able to stay in the job. So, these women are victimized twice. They are victimized by the men who abuse them and then they`re victimized by a system that is telling them, boy, if you speak up you`re going to ruin this guy`s life.

Well, my response to that would be maybe he deserves that, but we need to get beyond that -- that attitude of, you know, let`s hush it up here.

O`DONNELL: Margaret, quickly before the break. Ruth makes a great point, given the length of this case, Reince Priebus now has to be asked what did he know about this clearance investigation, the background investigation and did the FBI ever show him the photographs?

HERE

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.

But what if there`s a miracle solution say, I don`t know in 10:30 or 11:30 or --

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": Then I will take my donut holes and go home and walk my dog.

O`DONNELL: All right. I`ll stick around if you stick around. And if they`re still crashing into a government shutdown, I guess I`ll be here at 1:00, oh.

MADDOW: The problem is that this is going to be a government shutdown that probably lasts for a matter of hours which probably means we`re covering the entire duration of the shutdown live, I guess.

O`DONNELL: Oh, OK. That could be history making television in its way.

MADDOW: I know.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

MADDOW: Yes, I have a feeling this is not going to be a record-breaking night, if you know what I mean.

O`DONNELL: Oh, save me some donuts, Rachel.

MADDOW: I will do. Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Well, the White House is lying. It is as simple as that, and John Kelly is hiding tonight, afraid to explain himself to the American people. This is the same John Kelly who eagerly stepped up to the White House microphone to defend President Trump when he was criticized for the way he handled a condolence call to a widow of a soldier killed in action.

That was the last time that John Kelly stepped up to that White House press briefing microphone because he got caught in an ugly stream of lies when he did that -- lies about a woman -- he famously lied about Congresswoman Frederica Wilson, he got caught in that lie, he never apologized for it, he never stepped up to that microphone again to apologize for those lies.

And so, now, the proven liar, proven liar John Kelly, is hiding behind the White House press spokesperson who he sent out there to lie today. And here is the big lie that John Kelly pushed today to the White House spokesperson Raj Shah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJ SHAH, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: We know there`s been some reports about the chief of staff, he became fully aware about these allegations yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: It was a very tough day for the junior guy to go up to that microphone and try to do John Kelly`s lying for him.

John Kelly`s defense all comes down to the meaning of the word fully. He only became fully aware that Rob Porter was convincingly accused of beating both of his wives yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Did he know any of this back in November?

SHAH: Again, I`m not going to get into the specifics.

REPORTER: You use the term "fully aware", I don`t understand what that means. What does that mean John Kelly knew or didn`t know? What is --

SHAH: Well, I do know for instance that you he had not seen images prior to his statement -- the statement on Tuesday night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Yes, he did know this back in November and yes, he may have seen those images back in November or certainly heard about it when did John Kelly see the photographs of the black eye, there it is, that Rob Porter delivered to his first wife, Colbie Holderness, with a single punch.

John Kelly continued -- after seeing that photograph, he continued to save Rob Porter`s job in the White House and it wasn`t until 12 hours after seeing that photograph and after losing the battle to save Rob Porter`s job that John Kelly put out a statement written with the help of Rob Porter`s new girlfriend, White House communications director Hope Hicks saying: I was shocked by the new allegations released today against Rob Porter, there is no place for domestic violence in our society. I stand by my previous comments of the Rob Porter that I have come to know since becoming chief of staff.

The day before, on the first accusations of abuse against Rob Porter became public, John Kelly did not say there is no place for domestic violence in our society. He could not bring himself to even say that. He just said what a great guy Rob Porter is. Just said what a great honor it is to work beside him at the White House, said he couldn`t say enough good things about him.

John Kelly is lying about being shocked by the second day of accusations against Rob Porter, because multiple news organizations are reporting that the FBI told John Kelly in November what they had discovered about Rob Porter in their background investigations. Some reports indicate he was told as early as August. And John Kelly chose to ignore it.

Colbie Holderness showed her photos to the FBI. John Kelly knew there were photos. The FBI would have no reason not to tell him what they knew about Rob Porter, the FBI who have had no reason not to tell him that they saw the photos. Maybe -- might have even showed those photos to John Kelly.

And so, John Kelly decided not to believe what the two women told the FBI. Does that mean that John Kelly decided that those two women committed the crime of lying to the FBI? Did John Kelly decide that those two women were the kind of women who would just sit there and commit the crime of lying to the FBI? Does it mean Rob Porter lied to the FBI? Is there a crime here?

Here`s Jennifer Willoughby, Rob Porter`s second wife, telling NBC`s Kristen Welker about her conversations with the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Can you tell me what specifically you told them?

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, ROB PORTER`S EX-WIFE: I shared with them the details of my marriage. The same as have been in the interviews and articles that have come out.

WELKER: And one of the questions was, could he potentially be blackmailed? How did you answer that question?

WILLOUGHBY: I actually had difficulty answering that question because I believe that the people who had the power to blackmail him would be women who have been in personal relationships with him. So in short the answer could be maybe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Is it possible that the FBI did not think that that was something the White House chief of staff should know? That Rob Porter`s second wife says maybe he could be blackmailed?

Jennifer Willoughby is not hiding, like John Kelly. She submitted to an extensive television earlier tonight on CNN. She has appeared on video now, in multiple interviews. You can look at her, listen to her, read what she has written about her, you can judge her credibility.

But you can`t do that with John Kelly because John Kelly is hiding. John Kelly won`t let you hear his voice talking about this. John Kelly is afraid of stepping up to that microphone, afraid of looking into the cameras and answering questions about what he knew and when he knew it, and why he continued to fight for Rob Porter`s job even after he saw those black eye photos.

Joining us now is Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor and columnist for "The Washington Post". Also with us, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney for the northern district of Alabama, and a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, and Ned Price, a former senior director and spokesperson for the National Security Council and former CIA analyst. He`s an MSNBC national security analyst.

And, Ruth, I just want to get your reaction, because this is a moving story with new elements coming out by the hour, to -- your reaction about where this story stands tonight?

RUTH MARCUS, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, the phrase fully aware is possibly the most maddening phrase I`ve ever heard here. If General Kelly was not fully aware of the allegations against Rob Porter, it`s only because he chose not to make himself fully aware, because he heard something and, you know, they`re in this tribal mentality, circle the wagons in this White House.

They convince themselves this is part of the smear campaign against Rob Porter orchestrated by his political enemies. And they just -- they didn`t want to know. So, if he didn`t see this photo before yesterday, it`s just because he didn`t want to see the photo before yesterday.

But when he saw the photo yesterday, let`s be clear about the timeline. That photo came out yesterday morning. They continued to talk about the confidence that the president and the chief of staff had in Rob Porter through the briefing. It was not until more than a dozen hours after that photo came out that General Kelly professed, and I mean professed, to say he was shocked by what he had seen and that -- and to finally to choke out, as you say, and pardon the terrible pun, that domestic abuse has no place in our society.

These people do not take this abuse seriously. And finally, when the president said, through a spokesman, that he was saddened by this photo? I`m sorry, saddened? That photo does not make saddened. That photo should make you sick to your stomach that somebody could do that to another human being, no less according to her, somebody who was married to him -- somebody she was married to.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance, please feel free to respond to any aspect of this story, but I`d like to go to your legal expertise to the question of the FBI is involved in this. Could there be a crime? Could one of Rob Porter`s wives, or both, have lied to the FBI? Would that be a crime?

Rob Porter, might he has lied to the FBI? Would the FBI having picked up this information from his wives go back to Rob Porter as the subject of the investigation ask him about that?

But as a fact finder when John Kelly is sitting there, getting this information for the first time in the White House, this is not just information that the wives picked up through some unofficial channels. John Kelly, to not believe them, has to believe that they were willing to commit the crime of lying to the FBI.

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You`re exactly right. This information comes to the White House counsel and to the chief of staff filtered through the FBI background process. It`s a federal felony, a federal crime to make a material false statement in a matter that`s within the jurisdiction of the executive branch and a backgrounding exercise, where FBI agents go out and interview both someone who seeks a position and everyone who`s involved in their background would be a qualifying proceeding.

So, for Kelly to discount the stories that come from the wives and ex- girlfriend, he would have to believe that they spoke to FBI agents during the background process or the FBI employees conducting that background process, and that they were willing to expose themselves to the risk of lying to those agents. Essentially, that`s what he has to have believed to have discounted their stories.

O`DONNELL: Ned Price, you and I were speaking about this earlier today, the mystery of how long it was taking on this security clearance, and you offered the possible theory that it was possible that the FBI recommendation was simply they concluded their investigation and recommended against giving him a security clearance.

That is being reported tonight by "The Huffington Post" after you theorized it this afternoon in a conversation with me. Here`s "The Huffington Post" reporting that Porter had failed his security clearance investigation because of the domestic abuse reports. Porter at that time told Kelly he would leave the White House in December, but agreed to stay at Kelly`s urging, a Republican said, on condition of anonymity.

Ned, your reaction to that?

NED PRICE, FORMER SENIOR DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Right, Lawrence. There`s more here than meets the eye. The statements coming out of the White House just cannot be true. They are contradictory.

In fact, the White House claimed earlier today that Rob Porter`s background investigation was ongoing. But you have to remember the timeline here. You have to remember that Rob Porter became staff secretary on January 20, 2017, the first day of the administration. That suggests to me that his background investigation and vetting process started late 2016 or at the latest early 2017.

So, for him not to have a full permanent security clearance by early 2018, that suggests something very, very wrong was uncovered in his background investigation. And now we know. That also suggests to me, especially when coupled with the fact that John Kelly reportedly was briefed on this in November or even earlier, in the early fall, that John Kelly concluded that he wanted Rob Porter to stay. He wanted Rob Porter to continue serving as staff secretary even though the FBI would never be able to complete its background investigation knowing that Rob Porter would never have a permanent security clearance.

And for a job as sensitive as Rob Porter`s staff secretary, the person who`s responsible of overseeing every piece of paper that goes to the president`s desk, that`s -- it`s unfathomable.

O`DONNELL: And Joyce Vance, I want to go to reporting in the "New York Times" tonight. They are saying that Mr. Porter`s case raised questions about what Mr. Kelly knew and when. The White House was informed as far back as August that Mr. Porter`s security clearance was being held up because of domestic violence allegations.

Joyce, what does that mean as far back as August, the White House has found out there`s a serious problem?

VANCE: It`s incredible they kept Porter on for this period of time, knowing that as staff secretary he handled every piece of paper that entered the Oval Office and knew that security clearance wouldn`t be forthcoming. This would have been unfathomable in the Obama White House. And even through U.S. attorneys as we completed our interviews going through that background process, at the interview process, at the end of that interview, there was a moment where the people involved in the interview in the room would excuse themselves and the nominee, the candidate would sit alone with a couple of the interviewers.

And then they would ask what we call the sex, drugs and rock and roll question. They would say, is there anything else in your background that might be embarrassing to the president of the United States? And so, the process, it`s so hard to contemplate the gap between the severity with which backgrounds were investigated during the Obama administration and the apparently laxness here. These sorts of people don`t belong in the White House serving in the name of the American people.

O`DONNELL: Ruth, I want to read you something from the "New York Times" report that has just come out, and it`s about John Kelly in particular and the way he`s handled this because it`s looking like the only reason Rob Porter was still in the White House after failure to pass the background check is John Kelly. And "The New York Times", it says, friends and associates noted that with Mr. Kelly`s lack of experience in Washington politics, he may not have been attuned at first to how the domestic abuse allegations against Mr. Porter would be perceived.

And, Ruth, I knew how they would be perceived when I was in elementary school in Boston at the same time John Kelly was.

MARCUS: Indeed, I`m actually trying to figure out if you`re allowed to hit the palm of your hand against your head on television.

That`s just unbelievable because this is not a matter of political judgment I`m thinking about when we couldn`t quite -- nobody was quite sure how to think about Zoe Baird`s failure to pay her nanny taxes when she was Bill Clinton`s nominee to be attorney general. Come on.

Right. Any child knows, any grown up knows, anybody with a speck of moral principle knows that domestic abuse is to be taken seriously.

And, by the way, let me just point out, that General Kelly is the one who told us that he really felt nostalgic for the days when women were held sacred. Sacred, you know, don`t hit them.

I need to keep going for a second here. "The Times" reports that the photo was sent to the FBI agent or given to the FBI agent on January 27, 2017. The FBI -- I would be very surprised if the FBI just somehow kept that information from the White House during that whole time until the next fall. That would be really surprising.

And, by the way, this is not just a question about background checks. Yes, we want to make sure that people with security clearances aren`t subject to blackmail, but there`s a more fundamental point here, which is we want to make sure that people working in the White House, who are representing our government are not beating their wives or have not beaten their wives in the past. It`s a moral question. It`s not only a security question.

O`DONNELL: Before we go to a break here, I want to get an answer on this issue of, from Ned Price and Joyce Vance, do you believe if the FBI was in possession of those photographs, the black eye photographs for the last year and this security clearance was being held up, do you -- is it likely the FBI would have showed that photograph to John Kelly?

Joyce Vance, what do you think?

VANCE: I think absolutely. They would have gone back to the potential candidate for the office and asked him to explain the photograph. And then they would have gone to his future boss.

There is no doubt that the FBI would have discussed that. And what I think what needs to happen now, we need to have access to that FBI report and see what it reflects.

O`DONNELL: Ned, with your experience with thee kind of background investigations, the FBI had the photograph for over a year now, would they have shown it to John Kelly?

PRICE: Absolutely. I agree with Joyce. John Kelly would have been derelict if he didn`t go back to the FBI and say, why sit that this senior White House official, my staff secretary, doesn`t yet have a permanent security clearance? And I think at that point, the FBI would be certainly within their right to show John Kelly those photos and those photos would tell the entire story.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance and Ned Price, thank you very much for joining us.

Ruth, please stay with us.

Coming up, a special rewrite later in the hour, abuse survivors speak and tell us how they got the strength to leave their violent husbands and what this story means to them.

And we`re following the action live tonight on the Senate floor where we may be on our way to another government shutdown as Republican Senator Rand Paul is holding up the spending bill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: -- press spokesman was asked today if the president still had confidence in his staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does the president retain full confidence in his chief of staff?

SHAH: Yes.

REPORTER: In his White House counsel?

SHAH: Absolutely.

REPORTER: In his communications director?

SHAH: Yes, absolutely. The president has confidence in his chief of staff, counsel and communications director.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining the discussion now, Toni Van Pelt, president of the National Organization for Women, also with us, Margaret Carlson, columnist for "The Daily Beast", and Ruth Marcus is still with us.

Toni Van Pelt, your reaction to this story?

TONI VAN PELT, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN: My reaction is that John Kelly should be gone. The women of America deserve better in our White House.

O`DONNELL: I want to go to something we heard from Jennifer Willoughby tonight on CNN, and this is about Rob Porter intervening with her, trying to get her to change her story about their marriage. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, EX-WIFE OF ROB PORTER: I had been in contact with Rob a lot in the last two weeks as he gave me some warning that stories might break and knew people might be sniffing around my blog post.

We were in contact even a couple days ago as he was asking me to release a statement about my blog post and I went back and forth with him for an hour or so about what language I would be comfortable with and the language he asked I wasn`t comfortable with. And he came out with that statement less than an hour later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Margaret Carlson, she had already talked to the FBI almost a year ago at that point and changing that story after telling it to the FBI would be incurring, to put it mildly, some legal difficulties.

MARGARET CARLSON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes. The FBI believed these two women.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

CARLSON: It was in a report. Even if, quote, fully aware, General John Kelly wasn`t, he was partly aware, and rarely in these cases where you have a person who obviously has two distinct personalities do you have an FBI report, do you have that kind of evidence about the domestic abuse. It`s usually much hazier than that.

And this idea that you need a photo to convince you when the wording in those reports and those two women and what they had to say, they were believed by the FBI, sufficient so that he didn`t get a security clearance.

An intelligent four-star general shouldn`t need a picture. You know, kids need picture books, you know those big picture books with just a few words, but adults have fully developed brains where the FBI report would have been more than sufficient for General John Kelly to know that he could not keep a person of this character on the staff.

O`DONNELL: Both of Rob Porter`s wives are Mormon, as Rob Porter is, his family is. And so, they both say they consulted Mormon bishops and Mormon bishops were not helpful, they told them to kind of hang in, which is something that the priests in the Catholic Church, as Margaret you know, have been doing for decades, for generations, for forever. I think they`ve grown out of it recently, luckily.

But let`s listen to a former Mormon bishop, this is Senator Orrin Hatch. And Rob Porter used to be his chief of staff. And this is Senator Hatch today, after all of the information is out and after more than 24 hours of being able to look at the black eye photo, this is Senator Hatch today. This is what both of these wives have been up against. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you believe these allegations against him? Do you believe the women?

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: I don`t believe them all, but I -- I think there`s enough there that you have to take it very seriously.

REPORTER: Did he describe to you which allegations he believes have validity?

HATCH: No. No.

REPORTER: OK, you didn`t get into that.

HATCH: No, and I didn`t want to the either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Toni Van Pelt, that is a perfect manifestation of what these accusers have been up against apparently in the White House and the people in the Mormon Church that they confided in leading up to this.

VAN PELT: Yes, cover up, denial, enabling. This is what we have to stop in the country. We have to stop from mom and pop businesses, corporate America, the Halls of Congress, in the White House, they have to institute a policy to end this denial, these cover ups. It`s men protecting men. It`s not OK.

We expect them to protect women in our society from violence. These people -- these men, they`re harming their family members and they`re serving in our White House. They`re serving in our government.

It`s not OK. It`s got to end and we want it to stop today.

O`DONNELL: I want to go back to the White House press briefing today because it really is a John Kelly production from start to finish. He sent Raj Shah out there to tell the story and to pretend that it was yesterday`s news that changed everything for John Kelly, which means it was the photograph that changed everything for John Kelly.

Let`s listen to this reporter asking about what about women who don`t have photographs.

VAN PELT: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What about women who don`t have photographs? Do you trust their stories? Because a lot of times you haven`t been at the podium but, Sarah, said allegations weren`t credible from people. Do you need a photograph and what should -- how should women feel if they don`t have a photograph?

SHAH: I don`t think any standard applies. I just think that we do take allegations of misconduct, of domestic violence, other issues like that, seriously, we are concerned about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Ruth Marcus, we just heard from our previous guests with vast experience on this, they believe it is extremely likely that John Kelly saw those photographs possibly as long as a year ago.

MARCUS: And if he didn`t, it was only because he couldn`t have been bothered to see them. Remember, there was a different White House chief of staff initially --

O`DONNELL: Right. I`m sorry about that. That`s right.

MARCUS: So, there are others who may be similarly implicated in simply not being bothered enough by these allegations to look into them in any kind of serious way. I think that the point about pressure on the -- both of the former wives to stay silent, there`s some reporting about some officials of the church saying, well, Rob has a career, we have to think about his career.

And then I think I saw Senator Hatch quoted, in addition to what you showed, that he thought Porter should be able to stay in the job. So, these women are victimized twice. They are victimized by the men who abuse them and then they`re victimized by a system that is telling them, boy, if you speak up you`re going to ruin this guy`s life.

Well, my response to that would be maybe he deserves that, but we need to get beyond that -- that attitude of, you know, let`s hush it up here.

O`DONNELL: Margaret, quickly before the break. Ruth makes a great point, given the length of this case, Reince Priebus now has to be asked what did he know about this clearance investigation, the background investigation and did the FBI ever show him the photographs?

HERE

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.

But what if there`s a miracle solution say, I don`t know in 10:30 or 11:30 or --

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": Then I will take my donut holes and go home and walk my dog.

O`DONNELL: All right. I`ll stick around if you stick around. And if they`re still crashing into a government shutdown, I guess I`ll be here at 1:00, oh.

MADDOW: The problem is that this is going to be a government shutdown that probably lasts for a matter of hours which probably means we`re covering the entire duration of the shutdown live, I guess.

O`DONNELL: Oh, OK. That could be history making television in its way.

MADDOW: I know.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

MADDOW: Yes, I have a feeling this is not going to be a record-breaking night, if you know what I mean.

O`DONNELL: Oh, save me some donuts, Rachel.

MADDOW: I will do. Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Well, the White House is lying. It is as simple as that, and John Kelly is hiding tonight, afraid to explain himself to the American people. This is the same John Kelly who eagerly stepped up to the White House microphone to defend President Trump when he was criticized for the way he handled a condolence call to a widow of a soldier killed in action.

That was the last time that John Kelly stepped up to that White House press briefing microphone because he got caught in an ugly stream of lies when he did that -- lies about a woman -- he famously lied about Congresswoman Frederica Wilson, he got caught in that lie, he never apologized for it, he never stepped up to that microphone again to apologize for those lies.

And so, now, the proven liar, proven liar John Kelly, is hiding behind the White House press spokesperson who he sent out there to lie today. And here is the big lie that John Kelly pushed today to the White House spokesperson Raj Shah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJ SHAH, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: We know there`s been some reports about the chief of staff, he became fully aware about these allegations yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: It was a very tough day for the junior guy to go up to that microphone and try to do John Kelly`s lying for him.

John Kelly`s defense all comes down to the meaning of the word fully. He only became fully aware that Rob Porter was convincingly accused of beating both of his wives yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Did he know any of this back in November?

SHAH: Again, I`m not going to get into the specifics.

REPORTER: You use the term "fully aware", I don`t understand what that means. What does that mean John Kelly knew or didn`t know? What is --

SHAH: Well, I do know for instance that you he had not seen images prior to his statement -- the statement on Tuesday night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Yes, he did know this back in November and yes, he may have seen those images back in November or certainly heard about it when did John Kelly see the photographs of the black eye, there it is, that Rob Porter delivered to his first wife, Colbie Holderness, with a single punch.

John Kelly continued -- after seeing that photograph, he continued to save Rob Porter`s job in the White House and it wasn`t until 12 hours after seeing that photograph and after losing the battle to save Rob Porter`s job that John Kelly put out a statement written with the help of Rob Porter`s new girlfriend, White House communications director Hope Hicks saying: I was shocked by the new allegations released today against Rob Porter, there is no place for domestic violence in our society. I stand by my previous comments of the Rob Porter that I have come to know since becoming chief of staff.

The day before, on the first accusations of abuse against Rob Porter became public, John Kelly did not say there is no place for domestic violence in our society. He could not bring himself to even say that. He just said what a great guy Rob Porter is. Just said what a great honor it is to work beside him at the White House, said he couldn`t say enough good things about him.

John Kelly is lying about being shocked by the second day of accusations against Rob Porter, because multiple news organizations are reporting that the FBI told John Kelly in November what they had discovered about Rob Porter in their background investigations. Some reports indicate he was told as early as August. And John Kelly chose to ignore it.

Colbie Holderness showed her photos to the FBI. John Kelly knew there were photos. The FBI would have no reason not to tell him what they knew about Rob Porter, the FBI who have had no reason not to tell him that they saw the photos. Maybe -- might have even showed those photos to John Kelly.

And so, John Kelly decided not to believe what the two women told the FBI. Does that mean that John Kelly decided that those two women committed the crime of lying to the FBI? Did John Kelly decide that those two women were the kind of women who would just sit there and commit the crime of lying to the FBI? Does it mean Rob Porter lied to the FBI? Is there a crime here?

Here`s Jennifer Willoughby, Rob Porter`s second wife, telling NBC`s Kristen Welker about her conversations with the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Can you tell me what specifically you told them?

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, ROB PORTER`S EX-WIFE: I shared with them the details of my marriage. The same as have been in the interviews and articles that have come out.

WELKER: And one of the questions was, could he potentially be blackmailed? How did you answer that question?

WILLOUGHBY: I actually had difficulty answering that question because I believe that the people who had the power to blackmail him would be women who have been in personal relationships with him. So in short the answer could be maybe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Is it possible that the FBI did not think that that was something the White House chief of staff should know? That Rob Porter`s second wife says maybe he could be blackmailed?

Jennifer Willoughby is not hiding, like John Kelly. She submitted to an extensive television earlier tonight on CNN. She has appeared on video now, in multiple interviews. You can look at her, listen to her, read what she has written about her, you can judge her credibility.

But you can`t do that with John Kelly because John Kelly is hiding. John Kelly won`t let you hear his voice talking about this. John Kelly is afraid of stepping up to that microphone, afraid of looking into the cameras and answering questions about what he knew and when he knew it, and why he continued to fight for Rob Porter`s job even after he saw those black eye photos.

Joining us now is Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor and columnist for "The Washington Post". Also with us, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney for the northern district of Alabama, and a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, and Ned Price, a former senior director and spokesperson for the National Security Council and former CIA analyst. He`s an MSNBC national security analyst.

And, Ruth, I just want to get your reaction, because this is a moving story with new elements coming out by the hour, to -- your reaction about where this story stands tonight?

RUTH MARCUS, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, the phrase fully aware is possibly the most maddening phrase I`ve ever heard here. If General Kelly was not fully aware of the allegations against Rob Porter, it`s only because he chose not to make himself fully aware, because he heard something and, you know, they`re in this tribal mentality, circle the wagons in this White House.

They convince themselves this is part of the smear campaign against Rob Porter orchestrated by his political enemies. And they just -- they didn`t want to know. So, if he didn`t see this photo before yesterday, it`s just because he didn`t want to see the photo before yesterday.

But when he saw the photo yesterday, let`s be clear about the timeline. That photo came out yesterday morning. They continued to talk about the confidence that the president and the chief of staff had in Rob Porter through the briefing. It was not until more than a dozen hours after that photo came out that General Kelly professed, and I mean professed, to say he was shocked by what he had seen and that -- and to finally to choke out, as you say, and pardon the terrible pun, that domestic abuse has no place in our society.

These people do not take this abuse seriously. And finally, when the president said, through a spokesman, that he was saddened by this photo? I`m sorry, saddened? That photo does not make saddened. That photo should make you sick to your stomach that somebody could do that to another human being, no less according to her, somebody who was married to him -- somebody she was married to.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance, please feel free to respond to any aspect of this story, but I`d like to go to your legal expertise to the question of the FBI is involved in this. Could there be a crime? Could one of Rob Porter`s wives, or both, have lied to the FBI? Would that be a crime?

Rob Porter, might he has lied to the FBI? Would the FBI having picked up this information from his wives go back to Rob Porter as the subject of the investigation ask him about that?

But as a fact finder when John Kelly is sitting there, getting this information for the first time in the White House, this is not just information that the wives picked up through some unofficial channels. John Kelly, to not believe them, has to believe that they were willing to commit the crime of lying to the FBI.

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You`re exactly right. This information comes to the White House counsel and to the chief of staff filtered through the FBI background process. It`s a federal felony, a federal crime to make a material false statement in a matter that`s within the jurisdiction of the executive branch and a backgrounding exercise, where FBI agents go out and interview both someone who seeks a position and everyone who`s involved in their background would be a qualifying proceeding.

So, for Kelly to discount the stories that come from the wives and ex- girlfriend, he would have to believe that they spoke to FBI agents during the background process or the FBI employees conducting that background process, and that they were willing to expose themselves to the risk of lying to those agents. Essentially, that`s what he has to have believed to have discounted their stories.

O`DONNELL: Ned Price, you and I were speaking about this earlier today, the mystery of how long it was taking on this security clearance, and you offered the possible theory that it was possible that the FBI recommendation was simply they concluded their investigation and recommended against giving him a security clearance.

That is being reported tonight by "The Huffington Post" after you theorized it this afternoon in a conversation with me. Here`s "The Huffington Post" reporting that Porter had failed his security clearance investigation because of the domestic abuse reports. Porter at that time told Kelly he would leave the White House in December, but agreed to stay at Kelly`s urging, a Republican said, on condition of anonymity.

Ned, your reaction to that?

NED PRICE, FORMER SENIOR DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Right, Lawrence. There`s more here than meets the eye. The statements coming out of the White House just cannot be true. They are contradictory.

In fact, the White House claimed earlier today that Rob Porter`s background investigation was ongoing. But you have to remember the timeline here. You have to remember that Rob Porter became staff secretary on January 20, 2017, the first day of the administration. That suggests to me that his background investigation and vetting process started late 2016 or at the latest early 2017.

So, for him not to have a full permanent security clearance by early 2018, that suggests something very, very wrong was uncovered in his background investigation. And now we know. That also suggests to me, especially when coupled with the fact that John Kelly reportedly was briefed on this in November or even earlier, in the early fall, that John Kelly concluded that he wanted Rob Porter to stay. He wanted Rob Porter to continue serving as staff secretary even though the FBI would never be able to complete its background investigation knowing that Rob Porter would never have a permanent security clearance.

And for a job as sensitive as Rob Porter`s staff secretary, the person who`s responsible of overseeing every piece of paper that goes to the president`s desk, that`s -- it`s unfathomable.

O`DONNELL: And Joyce Vance, I want to go to reporting in the "New York Times" tonight. They are saying that Mr. Porter`s case raised questions about what Mr. Kelly knew and when. The White House was informed as far back as August that Mr. Porter`s security clearance was being held up because of domestic violence allegations.

Joyce, what does that mean as far back as August, the White House has found out there`s a serious problem?

VANCE: It`s incredible they kept Porter on for this period of time, knowing that as staff secretary he handled every piece of paper that entered the Oval Office and knew that security clearance wouldn`t be forthcoming. This would have been unfathomable in the Obama White House. And even through U.S. attorneys as we completed our interviews going through that background process, at the interview process, at the end of that interview, there was a moment where the people involved in the interview in the room would excuse themselves and the nominee, the candidate would sit alone with a couple of the interviewers.

And then they would ask what we call the sex, drugs and rock and roll question. They would say, is there anything else in your background that might be embarrassing to the president of the United States? And so, the process, it`s so hard to contemplate the gap between the severity with which backgrounds were investigated during the Obama administration and the apparently laxness here. These sorts of people don`t belong in the White House serving in the name of the American people.

O`DONNELL: Ruth, I want to read you something from the "New York Times" report that has just come out, and it`s about John Kelly in particular and the way he`s handled this because it`s looking like the only reason Rob Porter was still in the White House after failure to pass the background check is John Kelly. And "The New York Times", it says, friends and associates noted that with Mr. Kelly`s lack of experience in Washington politics, he may not have been attuned at first to how the domestic abuse allegations against Mr. Porter would be perceived.

And, Ruth, I knew how they would be perceived when I was in elementary school in Boston at the same time John Kelly was.

MARCUS: Indeed, I`m actually trying to figure out if you`re allowed to hit the palm of your hand against your head on television.

That`s just unbelievable because this is not a matter of political judgment I`m thinking about when we couldn`t quite -- nobody was quite sure how to think about Zoe Baird`s failure to pay her nanny taxes when she was Bill Clinton`s nominee to be attorney general. Come on.

Right. Any child knows, any grown up knows, anybody with a speck of moral principle knows that domestic abuse is to be taken seriously.

And, by the way, let me just point out, that General Kelly is the one who told us that he really felt nostalgic for the days when women were held sacred. Sacred, you know, don`t hit them.

I need to keep going for a second here. "The Times" reports that the photo was sent to the FBI agent or given to the FBI agent on January 27, 2017. The FBI -- I would be very surprised if the FBI just somehow kept that information from the White House during that whole time until the next fall. That would be really surprising.

And, by the way, this is not just a question about background checks. Yes, we want to make sure that people with security clearances aren`t subject to blackmail, but there`s a more fundamental point here, which is we want to make sure that people working in the White House, who are representing our government are not beating their wives or have not beaten their wives in the past. It`s a moral question. It`s not only a security question.

O`DONNELL: Before we go to a break here, I want to get an answer on this issue of, from Ned Price and Joyce Vance, do you believe if the FBI was in possession of those photographs, the black eye photographs for the last year and this security clearance was being held up, do you -- is it likely the FBI would have showed that photograph to John Kelly?

Joyce Vance, what do you think?

VANCE: I think absolutely. They would have gone back to the potential candidate for the office and asked him to explain the photograph. And then they would have gone to his future boss.

There is no doubt that the FBI would have discussed that. And what I think what needs to happen now, we need to have access to that FBI report and see what it reflects.

O`DONNELL: Ned, with your experience with thee kind of background investigations, the FBI had the photograph for over a year now, would they have shown it to John Kelly?

PRICE: Absolutely. I agree with Joyce. John Kelly would have been derelict if he didn`t go back to the FBI and say, why sit that this senior White House official, my staff secretary, doesn`t yet have a permanent security clearance? And I think at that point, the FBI would be certainly within their right to show John Kelly those photos and those photos would tell the entire story.

O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance and Ned Price, thank you very much for joining us.

Ruth, please stay with us.

Coming up, a special rewrite later in the hour, abuse survivors speak and tell us how they got the strength to leave their violent husbands and what this story means to them.

And we`re following the action live tonight on the Senate floor where we may be on our way to another government shutdown as Republican Senator Rand Paul is holding up the spending bill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: -- press spokesman was asked today if the president still had confidence in his staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does the president retain full confidence in his chief of staff?

SHAH: Yes.

REPORTER: In his White House counsel?

SHAH: Absolutely.

REPORTER: In his communications director?

SHAH: Yes, absolutely. The president has confidence in his chief of staff, counsel and communications director.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining the discussion now, Toni Van Pelt, president of the National Organization for Women, also with us, Margaret Carlson, columnist for "The Daily Beast", and Ruth Marcus is still with us.

Toni Van Pelt, your reaction to this story?

TONI VAN PELT, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN: My reaction is that John Kelly should be gone. The women of America deserve better in our White House.

O`DONNELL: I want to go to something we heard from Jennifer Willoughby tonight on CNN, and this is about Rob Porter intervening with her, trying to get her to change her story about their marriage. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER WILLOUGHBY, EX-WIFE OF ROB PORTER: I had been in contact with Rob a lot in the last two weeks as he gave me some warning that stories might break and knew people might be sniffing around my blog post.

We were in contact even a couple days ago as he was asking me to release a statement about my blog post and I went back and forth with him for an hour or so about what language I would be comfortable with and the language he asked I wasn`t comfortable with. And he came out with that statement less than an hour later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Margaret Carlson, she had already talked to the FBI almost a year ago at that point and changing that story after telling it to the FBI would be incurring, to put it mildly, some legal difficulties.

MARGARET CARLSON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes. The FBI believed these two women.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

CARLSON: It was in a report. Even if, quote, fully aware, General John Kelly wasn`t, he was partly aware, and rarely in these cases where you have a person who obviously has two distinct personalities do you have an FBI report, do you have that kind of evidence about the domestic abuse. It`s usually much hazier than that.

And this idea that you need a photo to convince you when the wording in those reports and those two women and what they had to say, they were believed by the FBI, sufficient so that he didn`t get a security clearance.

An intelligent four-star general shouldn`t need a picture. You know, kids need picture books, you know those big picture books with just a few words, but adults have fully developed brains where the FBI report would have been more than sufficient for General John Kelly to know that he could not keep a person of this character on the staff.

O`DONNELL: Both of Rob Porter`s wives are Mormon, as Rob Porter is, his family is. And so, they both say they consulted Mormon bishops and Mormon bishops were not helpful, they told them to kind of hang in, which is something that the priests in the Catholic Church, as Margaret you know, have been doing for decades, for generations, for forever. I think they`ve grown out of it recently, luckily.

But let`s listen to a former Mormon bishop, this is Senator Orrin Hatch. And Rob Porter used to be his chief of staff. And this is Senator Hatch today, after all of the information is out and after more than 24 hours of being able to look at the black eye photo, this is Senator Hatch today. This is what both of these wives have been up against. Let`s listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you believe these allegations against him? Do you believe the women?

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: I don`t believe them all, but I -- I think there`s enough there that you have to take it very seriously.

REPORTER: Did he describe to you which allegations he believes have validity?

HATCH: No. No.

REPORTER: OK, you didn`t get into that.

HATCH: No, and I didn`t want to the either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Toni Van Pelt, that is a perfect manifestation of what these accusers have been up against apparently in the White House and the people in the Mormon Church that they confided in leading up to this.

VAN PELT: Yes, cover up, denial, enabling. This is what we have to stop in the country. We have to stop from mom and pop businesses, corporate America, the Halls of Congress, in the White House, they have to institute a policy to end this denial, these cover ups. It`s men protecting men. It`s not OK.

We expect them to protect women in our society from violence. These people -- these men, they`re harming their family members and they`re serving in our White House. They`re serving in our government.

It`s not OK. It`s got to end and we want it to stop today.

O`DONNELL: I want to go back to the White House press briefing today because it really is a John Kelly production from start to finish. He sent Raj Shah out there to tell the story and to pretend that it was yesterday`s news that changed everything for John Kelly, which means it was the photograph that changed everything for John Kelly.

Let`s listen to this reporter asking about what about women who don`t have photographs.

VAN PELT: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What about women who don`t have photographs? Do you trust their stories? Because a lot of times you haven`t been at the podium but, Sarah, said allegations weren`t credible from people. Do you need a photograph and what should -- how should women feel if they don`t have a photograph?

SHAH: I don`t think any standard applies. I just think that we do take allegations of misconduct, of domestic violence, other issues like that, seriously, we are concerned about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And, Ruth Marcus, we just heard from our previous guests with vast experience on this, they believe it is extremely likely that John Kelly saw those photographs possibly as long as a year ago.

MARCUS: And if he didn`t, it was only because he couldn`t have been bothered to see them. Remember, there was a different White House chief of staff initially --

O`DONNELL: Right. I`m sorry about that. That`s right.

MARCUS: So, there are others who may be similarly implicated in simply not being bothered enough by these allegations to look into them in any kind of serious way. I think that the point about pressure on the -- both of the former wives to stay silent, there`s some reporting about some officials of the church saying, well, Rob has a career, we have to think about his career.

And then I think I saw Senator Hatch quoted, in addition to what you showed, that he thought Porter should be able to stay in the job. So, these women are victimized twice. They are victimized by the men who abuse them and then they`re victimized by a system that is telling them, boy, if you speak up you`re going to ruin this guy`s life.

Well, my response to that would be maybe he deserves that, but we need to get beyond that -- that attitude of, you know, let`s hush it up here.

O`DONNELL: Margaret, quickly before the break. Ruth makes a great point, given the length of this case, Reince Priebus now has to be asked what did he know about this clearance investigation, the background investigation and did the FBI ever show him the photographs?

MARGARET CARLSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Right, you know I mean it`s the Mormon Bishops, senator Orrin Hatch, Reince Priebus and General John Kelly possibly wanted to protect the man who had the big job and not the women. I mean The Me Too Movement has not entered the Whitehouse. That women are to be given some credibility when these come up. And these women had enormous credibility. and what the photo did was convince general John Kelly, eventually yesterday, that he was going to be exposed as having known this and that he could no longer defend -- he could no longer, I think "stay and fight" for Rob Porter because the photo was being published.

He knew likely of the photo`s existence. It`s just that he knew he couldn`t withstand that photo being out in the public.

O`DONNELL: Yes, that`s what changed, the photo being public.

CARLSON: Publicized.

O`DONNELL: Margaret Carlson, Ruth Marcus, Toni Van Pelt, thank you all for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

RUTH MARCUS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Good night Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Coming up our breaking news coverage of what`s happening on the Senate floor right now with Republicans holding up a spending bill and we may be headed for another government shutdown, possibly as early as tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: The Federal Government thanks to Republican Senator Rand Paul is now less than two hour away from shutting down again. Senator Rand Pail is blocking a vote on a budget bill in the Senate because he opposes the bill`s $300 billion of new spending. Senator Rand Paul who voted for a $1.5 trillion increase in deficit and debt with the Trump tax cuts is suddenly, suddenly complaining about the deficit. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAND PAUL, UNITED STATES SENATOR: I want them to have to answer people at home who said how come you were against President Obama`s deficits and then how come you`re for Republican deficits? Isn`t that the definition of intellectual dishonesty? If you were against President Obama`s and now you`re for the Republican`s deficits, isn`t that the definition of hypocrisy. Don`t you remember when Republicans how to high heaven that President Obama is spending us into the gutter, spending us into oblivion. And now Republicans are doing the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And Rand Paul did exactly the same thing by voting for a $1.5 trillion increase in deficit with the tax cuts. If the bill does pass the senate it will face problems in the House from what Rand Paul would call the intellectually dishonest hypocrites in the House of Representatives, a group of right wing Republicans who are also suddenly troubled by the deficit after they also voted to increase the deficit by a $1.5 trillion. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi said she would not support the bill unless House Speaker Paul Ryan gives her the same deal that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell gave to Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer and that is the promise of a vote on the House Floor and the Senate Floor on a continuation of the DACA program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY PELOSI, MINORITY LEADER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: I have an unease with and hope the Speaker will man up and decide we in the house will have what Mitch Mcconnell guaranteed in the senate, a vote on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you [00:02:04] or are you releasing your members?

PELOSI: I`m telling people why I`m voting the way I`m voting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: There`s a shot of the senate floor. Things have slowed down for the moment. Apparently Rand Paul can control the Senate floor until 1:00 a.m. if he chooses to do so. He has already been asked a couple times by Republicans to end this debate early and go to the vote early so they can possibly save the shutdown. We`ll be right back with live coverage and analysis of the situation on the senate floor tonight and in the House of Representatives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CORNYN, UNITED STATES SENATOR: The Senator from Kentucky, by objecting to the consent request will effectively shut down the Federal Government for no real reason. I know he wants to make a point. he has that right. I agree with many of his concerns about deficits and debt. But we are in emergency situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: It`s Republican against Republican on the Senate floor and Rand Paul is their big problem. joining us now is Adam Jentleson, former Deputy Chief of Staff to Senator Harry Reid and the Director of Public Affairs for Democracy forward. Also joining us Josh Barrow, a Senior Editor for Business Insider and an MSNBC contributor. And Adam you saw Senator Cornyn outraged really at Rand Paul because Rand Paul is going to lose this vote, a cloture vote we know that. Overwhelmingly loose it and the question is would he be reasonable enough to lose it before midnight so the Senate can get on to passing this budget instead of using up all his time and forcing the vote to occur at 1:00 a.m., an hour after the government would be forced to shutdown.

ADAM JENTLESON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes and I`m going to go out on a limb and guess the answer to the question is no. But I would also suggest to Senator Cornyn, who`s the number two ranking Republican in the Senate that he should be angry at himself and Senator McConnell and the leadership of the Republicans in the conference because they miscalculated in giving Rand Paul the ability to hold the Senate floor.

This is actually a rerun of something that happened in 2015 when Rand Paul forced -- held the senate floor and forced FISA authorities under the Patriot Act to expire. So Senator McConnell, who`s in charge of managing the time on the floor you know allowed this to happen by failing to schedule the votes in a way that would prevent Rand Paul from having the ability to do what he`s doing tonight which he`d shown in the past that he`s very willing to take advantage and do even with a shutdown looming.

O`DONNELL: Josh Barrow, this is the situation you find out which senators are running for President. And this is Rand Paul as far as I`m concerned saying hey I might run against Donald Trump in a Republicans primary.

JOSH BARROW, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well I -- but I also -- I think Rand Paul is genuine and that he wants to shrink the government.

O`DONNELL: Shrink the government, yes, but not the deficit.

BARROW: Right.

O`DONNELL: He simply exploded with tax vote.

BARROW: Right, but it`s an ideologically consistent position. You don`t have to like the position. He wants the government to spend less money. He`s happy to cut taxes you know first of all it leaves more money with people. And I think he thinks it creates pressure in the long run for the government to spend less money if it`s taking less money in. But that theory doesn`t work if they cut taxes and then go past this budget deal later that increases spending. We`re going to have deficits over $1 trillion dollar in 2018.

O`DONNELL: But Rand Paul has never ever advocating -- ever in his life advocated the spending cuts that would balance the budget. Never once, not one day of his life.

BARROW: Well I mean he`s advocating against these caps right now.

O`DONNELL: The spending cuts that would balance the Federal budget.

BARROW: Well the interesting -- I mean this was the interesting thing back with him on health care bill, right? Where he was out there saying you know this is Obamacare light. I oppose. I oppose. I oppose.

And people were wondering if it because he really wanted a full repeal of Obamacare or was it Medicaid has been very important of the state Kentucky. And if goes out there and he keeps saying I`m going to oppose this version and this version and this version because it`s not extreme enough that would help prevent them from ultimately passing a healthcare.

Then he went and voted for some of the versions of think bill that came to the senate floor. So he was willing to vote for some of that. But I think you know none of these people are completely consistent. But I think this is in line with Rand Paul positions where he`s opposed to spending increases and this big spending increasing.

And you had Republicans out there talking about how bad budget deficits were or about how bad high government spending was. And their actions by passing this budget plan don`t fit with either of those positions. This grows the deficit and it grows government spending.

So if you said you cared about cutting government you shouldn`t be voting for this. And if you said you cared about budget deficits you shouldn`t be voting for this either. And yet almost everyone in the conference, except Rand Paul is going to vote for it.

O`DONNELL: Adam, a quick last word before we go to a break.

JENTLESON: Yes, I mean I think whether Rand Paul individually is consistent or not, the broader point here is that Republicans are being incredibly hypocritical by voting for $1.5 trillion in tax cuts and turning around and complaining about increasing debt and deficits. I think that`s incredibly hypocritical of them.

O`DONNELL: Adam Jentleson and Josh Barrow thank you both for joining tonight.

BARROW: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, survivors speak in a special rewrite tonight in reaction to what Rob Porter`s second wife said last night about why she stayed with him after he was violent with her. her words and so I stayed" created a hashtag today and an outpouring of shared stories and enlightenment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Tonight`s rewrite, abuse survivors speak and they rewrite pain into the strength. The strength to survive, the strength to heal. That`s what we saw last night on this program. And then later with your comments on twitter. During the show last night I read Jennifer Willoughby`s blog post about her experience as Rob Porter`s second wife.

In that moving and hauntingly poetic piece she said, and so I stayed eight times. After the show many abuse counselors said the reasons Jennifer Willoughby gave for why she stayed are the kinds of reasons they hear all the time. He could be kind and sensitive. And so I stayed. He cried and apologized and so I stayed.

And he offered to get help and even went to a few counseling session and therapy groups and so I stayed. He belittled my intelligence and destroyed my confidence and so I stayed. I felt ashamed and trapped and so I stayed. Friends and clergy didn`t believe me and so I stayed.

I was pregnant and so stayed. I lost the pregnancy and became depressed and so I stayed. And I stayed was the hashtag for Valerie`s Solonas tweet saying I tried to be a better wife. And I had babies. And I thought maybe I deserved it and I thought because it wasn`t constant and there was no lasting damage then he did it in front of my son who was eight and I left.

Sue tweeted the piece you read about Rob Porter`s wife on why she stayed sounds exactly like me while married to my first husband. Thank God my dad rescued me. I married a great guy the second time around.

Last night on this program and on twitter I said the Catholic Church John Kelly and I grew in Boston repeatedly sent battered women home to their husbands for more beatings because divorce was a mortal sin. Turning the other check was expected forever. Mary Anne tweeted grew up in the same 1950`s Irish Catholic Culture in Chicago.

My father was abusive to my mother. She finally stopped listening to the priest, got a got a legal separation. I amso thankful she did. Youngest siblings don`t recall the abuse. I do.

Sandra Barren tweeted it is not just a problem in the Catholic Church. I called the police one time when he started hitting me with a pot only to be told by one cop that if he were married to me he would be beaten too. I never called for help again. And it took 20 years to finally leave.

Jonnie V tweeted the terror, assault on yourself -- assault on yourself were of in confidence. I was so stunned with recognition reading the essay from Porter`s example about why she stayed. All the excuses you make for yourself and the self loathing over what amounts to a lack of courage. Once I left the world rewarded me.

Elba Noriega said in my neighborhood I was a battered woman. And not only did the priest send me home with the man for more beatings but so did my mother. She kept reminding of what a great provider he was. And how he took us on great vacations.

Kate tweeted when I was a teenager at church my mother landed in the hospital. I was told she fell down the basement stairs. How did she get a severe black eye and battered face instead of breaking her neck. Lawrence retrieved that memory for me. And I`m wiser now. By the way she stayed.

Collette tweeted yes, I remember Father McIntyre telling my mother you made your bed. You have to lie in it. I was a child and I hated him for that. I left the church when I turned 16.

Allie tweeted having worked in a 911 call center I could tell you some truly terrifying stories about domestic violence. The most calls that come in other than accidenbts are are domestic violence. When you have to talk to a child or listen on an open line it is very hard, very hard.

Tia tweeted as a gynecologist I have encountered several clumsy women with many different types of improbable self injury stories. No point in reporting if they will deny. Handed out countless domestic violence packets andemergency numbers. Still waiting for changed.

Carla tweeted he was driving. I was in the passenger seat. The back of his big hand slammed right into my face. Both eyes instantly swelled and blood gushed out of my nose. I went silent after that.

Lanette said police use to take my husband for a ride, dropping him two miles away causing him to be more angry when he got home. Enough for me to just shut up the next time. My kids have fortunately blocked out memories of hiding under their beds.

Another viewer tweeted the first time and only time he came at me he broke my leg. I covered it up. I protected him. But I later realized that I was actually protecting myself from the embarrassment and shame I felt for allowing this to happen. Me too.

Ann tweeted at 20 holding my infant daughter in my arms he hit me in the mouth. She was covered in my blood. I looked at her and said to myself over my dead body. Will I give her a life like this? Left in the night and never looked back.

M Tweeted this is kind of open support survivor need to see. This is the kind of support that might encourage someone to say it`s OK. I can tell. Thank you.

There were many stories told by men of how they rescued their daughters and granddaughters and sisters from abuse. Let`s hope that we can all join together in helping women rewrite and so i stayed" into it`s OK. I can tell

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Here`s a look back at some of the action on the Senate flood within this hour. Here`s Republican Senator John Cornyn trying to shut down Republican Senator Rand Paul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ORRIN HATCH, UNITED STATES SENATOR: Senator from Texas.

CORNYN: Mr. President I`d as unanimous consent that not withstanding rule 22 at 10:30 P.M. this evening the Senate vote on the motion to invoke cloture.

RAND: Reserving the right to object.

CORNYN: I ask unanimous consent that not with standing rule 22 at 11:30 P.M.

RAND: Reserving the right to object seems like a lot of work for a trillion dollar deficit

CORNYN: Mr. President I`d as unanimous consent that not withstanding rule 22 at 11:30 P.M.

RAND: Reserving the right to object seems like a lot of work for a trillion dollar debt doesn`t it.

CORNYN: I ask unanimous consent that not withstanding rule 22 at 12:00 p.m.

HATCH: The Senator from Kentucky.

RAND: Reserving the right to object.

CORNYN: I ask unanimous consent that not withstanding rule 22 at 12:30 A.M.

RAND: Reserving the right to object.

CORNYN: I ask unanimous consent that not withstanding rule 22 at 1:00 a.m.

RAND: We`re talking about trillion dollar deficit. We really ought to have a little more discussion about trillion dollar deficit. I object.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Childish obstructionism by Rand Paul. He`s going to loose the vote and John Cornyn just wants him to loose the vote earlier so that the government won`t shutdown. That is Tonight`s Last Word. Coming up on the 11th Hour with Brian Williams, Brian has someone who was the Staff Secretary to President Obama. That is the job that

END