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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 11/28/2016

Guests: Michael Tomasky, Rick Wilson, David Corn, Charlie Sykes, Tim Ryan

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: November 28, 2016 Guest: Michael Tomasky, Rick Wilson, David Corn, Charlie Sykes, Tim Ryan

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: So, Rachel, we have a new test of friendship according to what I just heard.


O`DONNELL: Would you go upstairs and break up with her for me?


If I had someone upstairs to break -- would -- I mean --

MADDOW: Oh, no --

O`DONNELL: Where does that happen?

MADDOW: Number one --

O`DONNELL: Where does that happen? --

MADDOW: Bad boyfriend move, right? I`m no expert, but like if the break-up is ongoing, then you interrupt the break-up to do the shoulder rub and it`s OK, baby.

Like it`s just -- it`s the ixnay on -- anyway, yes, I would do anything you want to --

O`DONNELL: You have once again completely thrown me with the close of your show --

MADDOW: Sorry, hey listen, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD --


MADDOW: With Lawrence O`Donnell --


MADDOW: Good evening, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to start it over -- hey, Rachel, it`s great to be back, thank you very much --

MADDOW: Welcome back, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Rachel, thank you. Well, we have breaking news tonight. We have a new selection for the Donald Trump cabinet.

This one actually has experience in the department he`s being nominated for, so that`s one that might actually make it through confirmation without much trouble.

The question tonight, though, is does the United States of America produce enough bananas to be considered a Banana Republic?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The integrity of the U.S. election is suddenly under fire from the losers and the winner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump and his team are saying there was wimp and voter fraud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is an unusual tactic to challenge the results of an election you`ve won.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has not offered proof and neither has his transition team to this point of the massive voter fraud that he is alleging.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was bad enough when he was a candidate going around trying to undermine the legitimacy of the system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has problems with the truth. He lies all the time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seems to be irritated by this recount.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We deserve a voting system that we are confident in.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, SENIOR TRUMP ADVISER: A bunch of cry babies and sore losers about an election that they can`t turn around.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC: General David Petraeus, suddenly we`re hearing his name may be in the mix for Secretary of State.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Petraeus spent two hours inside Trump Tower.

DAVID PETRAEUS, FORMER DIRECTOR, CIA: The meeting went very well, very good conversation, we`ll see where it goes from here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only person who really knows what`s going on is the president-elect.

CHARLIE SYKES, RADIO HOST: Welcome to four years of palace intrigue like this.


O`DONNELL: We have breaking Trump cabinet news tonight. According to a high-level source familiar with the decision-making process, tells Nbc News that six-term Republican Georgia Congressman Tom Price is expected to be announced as the Donald Trump pick to be Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Congressman Price; an orthopedic surgeon has been a severe critic of the Affordable Care Act, saying it interferes with the ability of patients and doctors to make medical decisions.

Ten days ago, "The Hill" quoted Congressman Price saying house GOP eyeing a major Medicare overhauling 2017, he`s quoted in that story.

Saying Budget Committee Chairman Tom Price said he expects lawmakers to push forward with an overhaul within the first six to eight months of President-elect Donald Trump`s administration.

Overhauling Medicare has been a major goal for Speaker Paul Ryan since 2011. Congressman Price voted for the Ryan budget, which would turn Medicare into a voucher program, essentially repealing Medicare as we know it.

Joining us now by phone, Nbc News correspondent Kelly O`Donnell, who covers Capitol Hill.

Kelly, here is someone with some actual experience and expertise in the cabinet department that he would be nominated for.

But he does seem to be in sharp disagreement with Donald Trump on Medicare, who`s the only Republican who promised not to cut Medicare in any way.

KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC NEWS (via telephone): I think what you have here, Lawrence, is one of the potential picks that until now was flying under the radar a bit.

We`ve been focused on Secretary of State and some of the high-profile departments. But the Health and Human Services will be so essential when it comes to handling Obamacare as it`s been -- as we now call it.

And Tom Price has that experience as a physician and orthopedic surgeon, and you are right.

He has been a sharp critic of how Obamacare is structured and wants to move forward with the Republican phrase of let`s get a different system in there.

And I think that where you are also right is that Donald Trump has not been banging that drum. So why Tom Price?

Well, in part, he has the job presently as budget chairman, that was formally held by House Speaker Paul Ryan.

He`s close to Mike Pence, so, there`s a personal relationship there. He has a good relationship with Jeff Sessions, who`s the nominee to be Attorney General who has also been an integral part of the transition planning and the inner circle of Donald Trump.

So, when they look at potential candidates for this role, which will be a news-making roll in the months to come.

If you don`t know Tom Price`s name tonight, you will certainly know it over time, presuming he`s confirmed.

Because he has this sort of intersection of medicine, legislative experience, and he`s connected to power.

So, the fact that he has a view that is much more in line with Paul Ryan than the president-elect is an interesting situation.

But we have seen Donald Trump not always play to the campaigning Trump that we knew.

But to be looking for ways to fill slots with people who in this case has practical and legislative experience.

So, Tom Price is an interesting choice, of course it`s another member of Congress being put into the inner circle.

Many of Trump supporters were looking for people who would be outside of the traditional Washington, Tom Price is not that.

But he is well-respected among his colleagues. So, confirmation should be relatively simple for him at this point, but it`s a very big job with a huge undertaking to try to remake, reshape, undo, change, somehow alter Obamacare.

The argument from Republicans is that the premiums have gone up and the services have not been as predicted, planned and promised. So, this will be very big over the weeks to come.

O`DONNELL: Kelly, I think we know that the Democrats in his confirmation hearing are ready tonight with their questions and they`re simply going to be presenting him with quotes from candidate Donald Trump, saying he would not cut Medicare.

And then asking Congressman Price if he has now changed his mind and agrees with Donald Trump that Medicare should not be cut in any way.

O`DONNELL: I think you`re right. That is the smart play for Democrats going to the anthology of past quotes is safe territory to try to litigate this.

I think you can talk about a Tom Price who will be more focused on some of the free market parts of the healthcare law. Trying to change access across state lines, trying to adjust how there`s more patient choice.

But Medicare is a big piece of this, and as you know, Paul Ryan has believed that the cost arc overtime for Medicare is just too steep for the country, and that some adjustments for future retirees need to be made.

And that`s what we`ll see a battle line being fought in the weeks and months to come.

O`DONNELL: Kelly O`Donnell, thank you for joining us with this breaking news tonight, really appreciate it.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: So, banana republic, not the stores, the countries. That`s what they used to call countries with regimes that fluctuated between the comical and the terrifying.

Usually located in the banana-growing regions of Central America, South America, the Caribbean and Africa.

But what are they going to call it now? Now that we`ve become a banana republic? Should we call it a corn republic since that`s our biggest crop?

We`re the biggest corn producer in the world. But thanks to Florida and Hawaii, we can still call it a banana republic.

I mean, our banana production is tiny, really tiny but it`s enough, it`s just enough to hang on to that name.

We are living in a banana republic, that`s what it feels like. We`re living in a banana republic where the president-elect fluctuates between the comical and the terrifying.

A banana republic where the candidate who comes in second in the vote actually wins the office.

A banana republic where there are accusations of massive voter fraud, accusations made by the winner of the election.

Who, it should never be forgotten, became the winner even though he came in second in the vote.

Yesterday, the winner who came in second tweeted, "in addition to wining the electoral college in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally."

He then tweeted "serious voter fraud in Virginia, New Hampshire and California, so why isn`t the media reporting on this? Serious bias, big problem."

The reason the media is not reporting on voter fraud is that there was none. There is no evidence of millions of people voting illegally or anyone voting illegally.

But in a banana republic, who needs evidence for anything? In a banana republic, presidents make stuff up all the time.

In a banana republic, most candidates for president make stuff up most of the time and the winner is usually the one who`s best at making stuff up.

When Donald Trump isn`t making stuff up on his own, he often relies on even more dangerous minds than his to make stuff up.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is incontrovertible fact that 3 million illegals voted and that tens of millions of people were on the voter rolls who were dead, and at least 4 million of them voted as well.

So, what`s 3 million and 4 million? Seven million people voted that were either not citizens or illegal or were dead.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump believes that guy. And that is the same guy who believes that the massacre of school children and teachers at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut was a complete fraud.

Something just staged for the cameras. The grieving parents -- grieving parents crying that was just all acting.

Alex Jones is one of the most vile purveyors of filth and lies in American history, and to Donald Trump he is a reliable source.

Joining us now, Michael Tomasky, special correspondent for "The Daily Beast", and Rick Wilson; Republican strategist and contributor to the website "Heat Street".

Mike, it seems that Donald Trump tweeting about voter fraud is something he is really attached to.

He`s continued to do it tonight. Actually tweeting while watching some TV shows about voter fraud, stuff he has no evidence for.

MICHAEL TOMASKY, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, DAILY BEAST: You know, that doesn`t matter to him, we learned that long ago.

And you know, one interesting thing that I spent the day watching, Lawrence, I`m sure you did as well is how the newspapers and how the media in general covered the fact of that tweet.

Did they say in their headlines that Trump said this falsely? That Trump said this with no evidence?

Did they finally step up and actually assert that? The "Washington Post" did. The "New York Times" sort of did, the "Wall Street Journal" did not. Those were the three big ones that I looked at. But there were many other examples.

And most news organizations actually did not really plainly say that Trump made this assertion without any evidence.

What does it take for the press to stand up and say this and realize that Trump is saying these things on the basis of no evidence and tell their readers and viewers the same?

O`DONNELL: Rick, that is the problem that is facing the news media now. They never dealt with a candidacy like the Trump candidacy.

I don`t think in general the news media figured out how to deal with the Trump candidacy during virtually all of the campaign.

Now, we are embarking on a Trump presidency. With a transition unlike anything we`ve ever seen, no doubt leading to a presidency unlike anything we`ve ever seen with the least attachment to the truth that we`ve possibly ever seen.

How can the media -- how should the media deal with this?

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I know it`s fashionable for people to compare Trump to Hitler.

But there are more and more, it`s like Kim Jong-Don. This is a guy who expects to be covered the way -- of his own like mental fantasy image of himself.

And if you don`t -- you know, follow the exact Trump juche like in North Korea, you know, you`re cast out.

And the -- they`re afraid -- desperately afraid of this guy cutting him off and not talking to them.

They have gone so far beyond the point at which they should have said, wait a second, this guy is a pathological liar.

If his mouth hole is moving lies or coming out, they`ve never really sat down and consistently done to this.

As Michael said, you saw the -- you saw a variety of papers today cover it in a -- in a spectrum of responses from he`s an outright liar to, you know, the sort of processed story, Trump says this, Democrats react to that.

I mean, this is a guy who does not speak the truth. It is -- he is going to be the most deceitful president in history, bar none if he continues on the path he`s been on so far.

And I think the problem with it is, so much of it is wrapped up around his delicate ego and his sense of his own self-regard that we`re going to get into some very dangerous waters here very shortly.

O`DONNELL: I wanted to show something that Josh Earnest said today which will come as a surprise to Trump supporters. This is about Donald Trump consulting with President Obama.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I can certainly confirm for you that the president did have a telephone conversation with the president- elect on Saturday.

They spoke for -- you know, 45 minutes or so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And can you say whether this is the first time since they met in the Oval that they conversed by phone?

EARNEST: I can confirm for you that it`s not.


O`DONNELL: So Mike Tomasky, this is Donald Trump who`s called President Obama stupid, stupid deal maker, all this sort of stuff. And now it seems he`s calling him, he`s consulting with him, which is a very good sign.

I mean, this is a -- if -- in this transition, the most positive sign we have is that Donald Trump seems to recognize that President Obama has something to teach him.

TOMASKY: Let`s hope he does, and Obama is being very graceful, you know, some people on the left think he`s being too graceful and too cordial.

But it is the president`s job to ensure a smooth transition, so he`s doing what he takes it to be his responsibility to do.

But you know, we`ve got much bigger problems than whether Trump is listening to Obama or how carefully he is listening to Obama.

I mean, you know, we have -- Lawrence, it just stunned me over the weekend to sit there and contemplate that we have White House ethics lawyers, including a Republican one.

George W. Bush`s lead White House ethics lawyer for many years saying that he is going to be a walking conflict of interest as president of the United States from the moment he takes the oath of office.

From the moment he takes the oath of office. His business interests and what he decides to do as president of the United States can`t possibly be disentangled.

And this is the heart of the crisis I think that we face right now. And I don`t think anything that Barack Obama tells him or doesn`t tell him can undo that.

O`DONNELL: And Rick, this is the situation that the founders could not have contemplated.

Someone with as vast and complex a set of business holdings that could conflict in so many ways with the interests of government.

WILSON: Exactly, Lawrence. And I think as Michael pointed out, you know, there are -- there are ethics lawyers on both sides of the political divide right now who are looking at this and saying, you know, Trump may believe that the president has no inherent conflict of interest.

But this is a man who is doing business in countries that are pivotal in a whole host of multi-variant and super complex foreign policy problems that we face.

And he is -- he -- everything and all the evidence has shown from this entire campaign that Donald Trump has two things he cares about more than anything in the world.

His personal image and the image of his company. And the way it`s doing business overseas is something that he has not had a full and open discussion with Americans about.

We still don`t know the extent of his foreign business entanglements and the debt he owes to foreign banks and foreign companies.

And this is a guy who is going to enter into as we`ve already seen, you know, these initial meetings with diplomats in Trump Tower with his family members present.

If this isn`t a guy who`s going to separate the presidency and his business interests, it`s autocracy in the making.

O`DONNELL: Rick Wilson and Mike Tomasky, thank you both for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

TOMASKY: Thank you.

WILSON: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Trump supporters --

TOMASKY: Thanks, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Publicly campaigning for jobs in the Trump administration publicly fighting over jobs in the Trump administration, who should get them, who shouldn`t get them.

And tonight we apparently have Donald Trump`s pick to head Health and Human Services. That is the Republican chairman of the House Budget Committee that Donald Trump has chosen for that.

A member of the House Budget Committee, Democratic member of the House Budget Committee Tim Ryan will join us with his reaction to that.

Tim Ryan is also challenging Nancy Pelosi for the leadership of the Democrats in the house. Tim Ryan will join us.



MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Very productive day in the transition. Our hearts go out to the families of those affected in Ohio in the tragedy there.

Our prayers are with them all tonight. Look forward to being back at it first thing in the morning and there will be a number of very important announcements.


O`DONNELL: This holiday season, the best thing we can all give is ourselves and our time. Giving Tuesday as the global day of giving.

Go to MSNBC.COM/GIVINGTUESDAY to learn how you can get involved.


O`DONNELL: It seems like it`s time for the political news media to recognize that we have no idea what`s going on in Trump world.

The public parading and auditioning of Secretary of State candidates which today included former General David Petraeus is nothing we`ve ever seen before in a presidential transition. But is nearly(ph) similar to Donald Trump`s TV show in which contestants vy for his approval.

Yesterday, Donald Trump`s campaign manager took to meet the press to do something we`ve never seen before. Campaign against someone Donald Trump is supposedly considering for Secretary of State.


CONWAY: People feel betrayed to think that Governor Romney who went out of his way to question the character and the intellect and the integrity of Donald Trump, now our president-elect would be given the most significant cabinet post of all, Secretary of State.

We don`t even know if he voted for Donald Trump. He and his consultants were nothing but awful to Donald Trump for a year.

Governor Romney in the last four years, I mean, has he been around the globe doing something on behalf of the United States of which we`re unaware?

In other words, what -- I`m all for party unity, but I`m not sure that we have to pay for that with the Secretary of State position.


O`DONNELL: Now, people who think they have good sources within Trump world say Donald Trump is furious about what Kellyanne Conway said yesterday.

But that of course doesn`t mean that Donald Trump is furious. It simply means someone in Trump world, including possibly Donald Trump wants that reporter to think he`s serious -- think he`s furious.

Donald Trump is capable of sending Kellyanne Conway on "MEET THE PRESS" to say exactly those words, and then lying to a reporter that he is furious about it.

We don`t know why, but that`s the way it is in there. Here`s a picture of Donald Trump being furious with Kellyanne Conway, who is tweeted by Kellyanne Conway tonight with the tweet saying that they are working together tonight at Trump Tower.

The value of access journalism now is close to zero. Access to Trump world doesn`t mean you`re any closer to the truth of what`s going on in Trump world or the truth of what Donald Trump is thinking, even if you hear it from Donald Trump.

Joining us now, Charlie Sykes; a radio host with "Wtmjam" in Milwaukee, and David Corn, the Washington Bureau chief for "Mother Jones" and an Msnbc political analyst.

David, it seems to me that access journalism practiced in Trump world is about as low value of journalism as you could ask for.

The most people are getting out of it is some prediction that he`s going to meet tomorrow with so-and-so, information that if you wait another few hours, you will know one way or the other.

But as to what`s really going on, what`s the real motivation for what Kellyanne Conway did yesterday, we don`t have any way of finding that out.

DAVID CORN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, MOTHER JONES: And I`m not sure it even matters. You know, when there is no truth in existence, there is no truth to be uncovered.

That is a big dilemma for journalists. Everything Donald Trump has said from the very beginning of this campaign is situational.

It doesn`t matter for anything but the moment. So, by the time you report it, the moment has already passed.

And so it may no longer be relevant or material, let alone anything close to accurate because much of what he says as we saw with his comments about illegal voting is factually wrong, is a lie.

So, finding out what he`s saying, what he`s thinking is almost immaterial particularly when we`re going to know eventually who he`s appointing.

You know, this whole rush to find out who`s in and who`s out, what`s up, what`s down, is irrelevant because eventually he will nominate people.

And there`s so much else going on now, his business deals. Some of the crazy positions from people who are in line for big jobs.

That`s what people should be focusing on. I don`t give a wit about what Kellyanne Conway says on camera or off camera because it has no lasting value.

O`DONNELL: Now, Newt Gingrich was once in the early days on the list of theoretical list for Secretary of State before he just took himself out of consideration for anything.

I think realizing he couldn`t possibly get through a Senate confirmation hearing. Let`s listen to what Newt Gingrich now says about Mitt Romney.


NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: I think there`s nothing Mitt Romney can say that doesn`t sound phony and frankly pathetic.

He made his case. He made his case all year. He did all he could to help cause Trump to lose Utah.

He called Trump vicious and vile things. He described him in language that is not possibly compatible with being together.

Speaking for most of the Trump supporters, while we will support President- elect Trump in whatever he does, I think we would be enormously disappointed if he brought Mitt Romney into any position of authority.


O`DONNELL: And so Charlie Sykes --

SYKES: Yes --

O`DONNELL: You`ve worked -- you have a Republican audience for your show, you`ve talked to a lot of Republicans.

Enormously disappointed says Newt Gingrich, and yet Mitt Romney has another meeting with Donald Trump tomorrow.

SYKES: Yes, business apparently is the -- you know, 8th dimension chess that we`ve been hearing so much about, this manipulation.

By the way, the way that Donald Trump has been playing the media is been extraordinary.

Anybody that actually thought that Kellyanne Conway had gone rogue yesterday, I mean, really, have they not been paying attention?

She`s a hired gun, obviously, somebody had authorized her to do this. But what I find fascinating is what the end game is here.

You know, how much humiliation does Mitt Romney want to swallow in all this? Because throughout the year, Mitt Romney has been showing a great deal of principle, a great deal of courage.

And the question is, you know, what is he going to swallow if he really wants this job, and does he understand what he`s going into?

Does he understand the palace intrigue, the knives that are going to be out for him? You know, the people who are going to be manipulating him.

Does he see the game, the psychological game that Donald Trump is manipulating? And I agree with David.

You know, at some point the media has to understand that all of the rules that they have lived by and applied just do not apply -- either that Donald Trump ordered this new media ecosystem that he exists in and that is enabling him.

O`DONNELL: And David, I want to get to General Petraeus. So, who is the news of the day today on the Secretary of State --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: So, in order, apparently, to have another option to Mitt Romney, they`re going to the first guy who would go into a Senate confirmation hearing for Secretary of State with a criminal record.

With a misdemeanor, pleaded -- pled down --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: From felonies --

SYKES: Yes --

O`DONNELL: About classified information and deliberately, knowingly handing over classified information to someone who wasn`t cleared for it.

And that`s to take the job in which Trump world insisted during the campaign Hillary Clinton in that job should go to jail for --

CORN: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Operating an e-mail server outside of the rule book in which she never intentionally gave anything to anyone.

CORN: We`ve gone from "lock her up" to "give him a job". And when James Comey testified about the Hillary Clinton case, this issue came up about David Petraeus and he said that was a much worse case.

It should have been prosecuted, in fact, I think he wanted to see it prosecuted more than it was. He wanted to be harsh on this. David Petraeus handed over notebooks that contained information about covert agents, covert operations to his mistress.

Now, maybe you can trust your mistress, but as we know, anyone who watches bad TV, the mistress often doesn`t end up on your side.

And so, you know -- so, I mean, again, this as the world turns upside down, it means that anything that Trump said about locking her up didn`t matter because nothing matters.

O`DONNELL: So, Charlie, if Donald Trump --

SYKES: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Goes with David Petraeus, what does that say to his supporters about the whole Hillary Clinton e-mail scandal as seen by Trump world?

SYKES: Well, I mean, that it`s -- you know, hypocritical, doesn`t have respect for the law -- I mean, gentlemen, this is the Trump administration after all.

I mean keep in mind Donald Trump is the Commander in Chief. And my guess as to what he will say is this is the most respected military man of the generation. He`s made a mistake. He`s paid the price.

O`DONNELL: It looks like we lost Charlie`s feed there. David Corn, we`re going to have to leave it there for tonight. Thank you -- and Charlie, I hope you can hear me. Thank you for joining us. David, thank you.

CORN: Sure thing, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Elizabeth Warren has a very strong message to Republicans about pushing policies that clearly most of the country strongly opposes.



SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Republicans are taking over congress. They are take being over the Whitehouse. But Republicans do not have majority support in this country. The majority of voters supported Democratic Senate candidates over Republican ones.

And the majority supported a democratic Presidential Candidate over a Republican one. The American people didn`t give Democrats majority support so we could come back to Washington and play dead. They are watching. Waiting and hoping -- hoping that we will show some spine and start fighting back.


O`DONNELL: That was Elizabeth Warren tonight on the senate floor. We will be joined next by Congressman Tim Ryan who is challenging Nancy Pelosi for leadership of the House Democrats. He`s a member of the house Budget Committee. The chairman of that committee, Tom Rice is reportedly Donald Trump`s choice to be of Secretary of Health and Human Services.

We will get Congressman Ryan`s view of what that mean for beneficiaries of Medicare and the Affordable Care Act. That`s next


O`DONNELL: We have more on our breaking news tonight. NBC news is reporting that Donald Trump has picked Republican Congressman Tom Price of Georgia for his Health and Human Services Secretary. Congressman Price who is orthopedic surgeon has been an outspoken opponent of the Affordable Care Act. And he has been a strong supporter of Paul Ryan`s plan to turn Medicare into a voucher program, dramatically cutting spending on Medicare.

House Democrat Leader Nancy Pelosi recently told the New York Times Robert Pear that she expects a fight on Medicare and that Democrats will stand firmly and unified against Mr. Ryan if he tries to shatter the sacred guarantee that has protected generations of seniors. Joining us now, Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan. He is on that same budget committee of which Tom Price is the chairman. He also running against Nancy Pelosi to be the leader of the House Democrat. Congressman Ryan, what can you tell us? What`s your reaction to Chairman Price being selected by Donald Trump for Health and Human Services?

REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: Well, I`ve sat on that Budget Committee for the last six years with Dr. Price, and he is clearly an advocate of repealing the Health Care Bill, of privatizing Medicare. He has a long record of doing that. We watched him lead the charge and try to repeal it 60-some- plus times. Depends on how you`re counting, and now he`s, I guesses going to be the head of the Health and Human Services. So I think it`s President-Elect Trump sending a clear signal of the direction he wants to go in with regard to our Senior Citizens Healthcare and he will have a big fight on his hands

O`DONNELL: Congressman Ryan, you`re running for the position of leader of the opposition party in the house, and it really doesn`t look like there`s any prospect to you being able to do much other than simply oppose the Republican agenda in the House of Representatives. Taking this in particular, taking what we know to be at least the Republican House position on Medicare, what would -- how would your tactics in opposition to that be any different from Nancy Pelosi`s?

RYAN: Well you`re right Lawrence. Nobody knows than you the procedure in the House is much different than the Senate. But we have to frame the argument. I think we have to continue to frame the debate. There`s a lot of people in my Congressional District and many, many others who voted for Donald Trump and did not sign up for privatizing the Medicare System or privatizing Social Security or throwing kids off of their healthcare like what would happen if they repeal the Affordable Care Act.

They didn`t sign up for that. So with republicans in charge of all of the government in Washington, D.C. and with them in charge of about two-thirds of state governments around the country, we need to position ourselves to be ready to take the house back in 2018, running on these issues that they privatized Medicare, threw kids of their health insurance. And it sounds like they`re going to cut taxes for the top end bracket too. And the reason I`m running for this seat is I think I`m the best, this leadership position is I`m the best person to go out in these Congressional Districts all across the United States and pick up voters who will feel the backlash of the Trump election.

O`DONNELL: And Congressman Ryan what is your pitch individually to House members? And you have to get these votes one on one. And I`m sure you`ve been working it. But what is your pitch when they say I`m fine with Nancy. I`m fine with the Pelosi leadership?

RYAN: Well, you know, with all due respect, I`m not hearing a whole lot of that. I mean I think people know after last Tuesday we`ve been doing something terribly wrong. We have the smallest numbers in our Democratic Caucus since 1929. You know we`ve lost 60 some seats since 2010. We`ve got to do something differently. And I think people are very, very open.

And I tell you there`s going to be a surprise on Wednesday, a lot of people are going to be surprised about what happens on Wednesday at our vote, because people want change. And what I`ve been hearing in the last few days is people are hearing from their constituents that it`s time for us to make a change. And if we want to make a big play in 2018, you know, we got to change the coach. And the coach isn`t winning. And as much as it pains me to say that, we have to get a new coach. And that`s the pitch I`ve been making. When we walk out of that room on Wednesday, Lawrence the American people are going to act one way or the other. Either we`re going to say we didn`t hear you and we`re going to go stick with the status quo or we`re going to With Tim Ryan and we`re going to make a change.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Tim Ryan, two days away from what could be the biggest vote of his career. Congressman Ryan thank you very much for joiningg us tonight, really appreciate it.

RYAN: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, what we know about terror links to that attacker at Ohio State.


O`DONNELL: Today in Ohio, a hero cop saved lives. And he took a life that he had to take to saves those lives. 28 year old Officer Alan Horujko joined the Ohio State University Police almost two year ago and today faced the life or death decision to use deadly force. He shot and killed Abdul Razak Artan after that man drove into a crowed of people injuring several and jumped out of the car slashing others with a butcher knife.

Joining us now, Malcolm Nance, a former counter intelligence officer and a MSNBC contributor. He`s also the author of defeating ISIS, who are they, how they fight, what they believe. And Malcolm as of now, we don`t have any ISIS connection to this. But we do have Facebook postings that are pretty troubling and pretty transparent. Facebook is saying that he has been led to a boiling point. I can`t take it anymore. He says by Allah, I am willing to kill a billion infidels in retribution for the killing of a single disabled Muslim - Muslim man. What`s your reading of what we know about the case so far Malcolm?

MALCOLM NANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: What we`re looking at here is a classic case of self-radicalization based on information that he found on the internet. Now He`s a Somali Immigrant who came from Somalia through an interesting pathway. He actually came through Pakistan first and then came to the United States and became a nationalized citizen. B

But that being said, this is how we are seeing what Al Qaeda and ISI, both elements of which were referenced in his Facebook postings can inspire someone into believing that he has to become a weapons system to affect the change that he wants. His Facebook posting was almost a rambling to a certain extent. He was talking about the Burmese, Muslims of Rohingya who are being attacked by the Government of Burma and then he would come back and talk about the United States carrying out operations against the Islamic State. So for him, it was just this leap straight into believing that the entire Muslim world is under siege, and we`ve seen that in many of these self-inspired, you know, wanna-be Jihadist.

O`DONNELL: And as recently as August 25th, he was quoted in the school newspaper there in what seemed like a very sympathetic story and situation, he said this is my first day, I`m new here. I don`t even know where to pray. I wanted to pray in the open. But I was kind of scared with everything going on in the media.

I`m a Muslim. He goes and talks about that. And then says he made the decision to just do it. I relied on God. I went over to the corner and just prayed and Malcolm. So that`s August and here we are November, and he`s out there trying to kill people.

NANCE: Yes, it`s a relatively fast pathway to radicalization. And we don`t know what`s the background of where he was getting his information. But there is one thing that we do know. Muslims who pray together go to prayer groups in Mosques for the most part, don`t radicalize like this. They`re brought into nominal Islam. And people who are isolated and alone, they`re quickly led to these, this type of radicalization.

O`DONNELL: Malcolm Nance, thank you very much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

NANCE: It`s my pleasure.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the thanks that I heard for America on Thanksgiving Day.


O`DONNELL: How far away do you have to go to avoid conversations about Donald Trump on Thanksgiving? The answer to that is next in tonight`s rewrite


O`DONNELL: Time for tonight`s rewrite. So how was your Thanksgiving? Hope you avoided dinner table arguments about Donald Trump. I did. I wasn`t with anyone who has heard of Donald Trump.

I was with her in Africa in Malawi. And I was with Cecelia and Alice. They didn`t know it was Thanksgiving Day in the USA. Most people in the world have never heard of Thanksgiving Day. But Cecelia and alice were very thankful to have that mango to share. More thankful than Americans are for their turkey, because America is the country that has too much food and Malawi is the country that doesn`t have enough.

There`s a food shortage in Malawi now. Not quite a famine, but every mango counts. Thanksgiving is supposed to be our national day of thanks, but for most of us, it`s day we test just how much we can eat in one sitting. That`s what it always has been for me when I`m at home. For those of you who really did give thanks for the good things you have in your life, including the people.

I have a feeling that most of you didn`t give thanks for all of the good things you have in your life because in America we take so much for granted for example electricity. How many of you gave thanks for electricity on Thanksgiving Day? You would have been in there had been a blackout and then the lights came back on. You`d be thankful for about a second or two for electricity. And then you`d get used to it again as we always do.

These guys don`t have electricity in their homes or their school. I visited their school on Thursday, Thanksgiving Day, and like all the schools I visit in Malawi over the years, it has no electricity. And most of those schools don`t have desks. They don`t have desks and the kids sit on the floor like that all day.

It`s more uncomfortable than you`d imagine, and it is very tiring. That`s why I created the KIND fund, Kids In Need Of Desks which MSNBC has supporting since this program began six years ago. In a unique partnership with MSNBC and UNICEF, UNICEF provides all of the on the ground support that we need in Malawi to have the desks made there in three factories in Malawi. The KIND fund has now raised more than $10 million, all thanks to you, the MSNBC audience. The only way we raise money for the KIND fund is by telling but it on this program. $8.7 million has been used to lift hundreds of thousands of children off the floor in Malawi schools.

And $1.9 million has been used for scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi. As in many African countries public schools is free only in primary school. But all secondary schools charge tuition and tuition that is shockingly low for our standards but much too high for most Malawi families to pay. And when a family does scrape up the money for high school, they`ll usually use it for one of the boys in the family instead of one of the girls which is why we`ve devoted our scholarship program to the girls in Malawi. The girls high school graduation rate is 50 percent lower than the boy`s graduation rate in Malawi.

Tomorrow is giving Tuesday and MSNBC is running as giving Tuesday`s signature media partner for the third year in a row. And I urge you all to give tomorrow whatever you can to the KIND fund or any deserving cause of your choice. You can contribute to the KIND fund at lastword But for many of you, Thanksgiving Day was giving Thursday in Malawi.

You rewrote Thanksgiving Day with the emphasis on the giving because in Malawi on Thursday using your contribution we changed the lives of 12 girls by giving them scholarships to attend high school. Each of the girls had been in high school but had been forced to leave when they couldn`t make their next tuition payment which was less than $10. Their parents couldn`t come up with that to keep them in school. It wouldn`t have gotten them through the whole year but it would have gotten them through the semester.

On thanksgiving day, I told the girls and their parents that they wouldn`t have to worry about tuition anymore. The head teacher of the school reenrolled them that afternoon and the next day, Friday, at 8:20 A.M., all of the girls were back in school, all thanks to you. Sanford (INAUDIBLE) is a farmer. He`s managed to pay the school fees for three of his children, but his 14 year daughter, (FOREIGN LANGUAGE) which means My Luck, was one of the girls sent home from school for not paying school fees.

There`s a drought in Malawi that`s hurt a lot of farmers like Sanford, but it hurt him more to see his daughter staying home from school. When I explained to him how we raise the money to pay for his daughter`s school fees, this is what he said.


SANFORD, FARMER: Thank you very much for this program. I can say that, thank you for this program, to American who do this program. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. God bless America.


O`DONNELL: God bless America. He didn`t thank me. He didn`t thank UNICEF or MSNBC. He thanked America. And he`s right. His daughter is back in school today, thanks to an American spirit of giving. America is still a country filled with people who want to help others in any way they can, whenever they can, wherever they can. And on Thanksgiving Day, in a village in Malawi, Americans delivered that help in a way that will never be forgotten. MSNBC`s live coverage continues into "THE 11TH HOUR" now, with Brian Williams. That`s next.