Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: November 21, 2016 Guest: Mark Thompson, Yoni Applebaum, Kurt Bardella, Tim Ryan, Kyle Kirchmeier, Paul Butler, David Frum, Jonathan Dienst
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good people don`t smoke marijuana. And it`s not funny, you guys.
That is a thing that happened, and that`s probably our next Attorney General. That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD.
Ari Melber sitting in for Lawrence tonight, good evening, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, thank you Rachel --
MADDOW: Thank you --
MELBER: We begin with some breaking news this hour, Donald Trump, yes, back on Twitter attacking one of the biggest areas of concern surrounding his presidency.
All of this after unveiling a carefully scripted video that suggest Trump`s tough talk on the campaign trail is hitting a brick wall of reality.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, I would like to provide the American people with an update on the White House transition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A tape produced by his own team, the press not invited.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST: He will have a press conference in due course.
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: What`s the matter? Is there something on your shoulder?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, all of this.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump`s sprawling business ties are coming under intense scrutiny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The company is not breaking any law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the signs are horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The conflicts are pervasive, they`re obvious, they`re foreseeable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We saw another tweet storm over the weekend.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: Mike Pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of "Hamilton".
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump lecturing anyone on bullying is just a joke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have people, white nationalists congregate a couple of blocks from the White House.
RICHARD SPENCER, WHITE NATIONALIST: Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is what he`s talking about. This "Hamilton", it`s quite alarming, and it`s a bit childish.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump is considering splitting his time between the White House and his Manhattan residence which would cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.
But it`s all worth it to help a billionaire go night in his big-boy bed.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Good evening. A late-night tweet from Donald Trump tonight shows that he doesn`t get it.
Under fire for how he`s mixing his business interests with governing. Trump is claiming the press didn`t know that he had business interests abroad at all.
Take a look. Prior to the election, he said, "it was well-known I have interests in properties all over the world.
Only the crooked media makes this a big deal." So, Trump is still picking fights with the press and typing tough from the comfort of his smartphone.
And we know many Trump supporters said they liked that he tells it like it is, from hammering political correctness to pledging to drain the swamp.
But when it comes to actually governing, Trump is singing a different tune tonight. He also released a new video that literally dilutes just about every big, tough promise he made on the campaign trail.
Its video was created and distributed by the president-elect`s transition team, it wasn`t part of any open press event.
It started with the biggest issue of all -- immigration. But tonight, Trump`s big transition briefing only offered this on immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will direct the Department of Labor to investigate all abuses of visa programs that undercut the American worker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That is, of course, a far cry from Trump on the trail in August.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Zero tolerance for criminal aliens. It`s zero.
(CHEERS)
Day one, my first hour in office, those people are gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And visa oversights, long ways from that famous wall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We will build a great wall along the southern border and Mexico will pay for the wall.
They don`t know it yet, but they`re going to pay for the wall.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And here`s Trump`s new transition video on national security.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will ask the Department of Defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to develop a comprehensive plan to protect America`s vital infrastructure from cyber attacks and all other form of attacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So, it took less than two weeks for Trump to start mimicking Washington`s incremental talk of developing plans instead of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would bomb the -- out of them. I would just bomb those suckers, and that`s right.
I`d blow up the pipes. I`d blow up the -- I`d blow up every single inch, there would be nothing left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now let`s be clear. Any kind of talk might be an improvement over that kind of rhetoric.
But if Trump`s claim to fame is being tough and stubborn, he is giving up a lot awfully quickly.
And that`s all before we get to the issue that Trump`s transition priorities video briefing didn`t even mention it all.
You may have noticed it missing the subject of repealing Obamacare. Let`s get right to it, Jonathan Alter is with us, the columnist for "The Daily Beast" and an Msnbc political analyst.
And David Frum; a senior editor for "The Atlantic". Plenty to keep track of. But David, let me start with you, was it a very different Trump we`re seeing in those little incremental statements in that video tonight and what do you think of it?
DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, it was a breath-taking tape.
My favorite part was where a man who is president of the United States because of a cyber attack by hostile foreign power promises that from now on we are going to stand up to cyber attacks by hostile foreign powers.
That was -- that was breath-taking. It`s not a surprise that he`s backing away from a lot of the promises. But the key thing always to keep in mind is the point of the administration is the graft.
Everything else is decoration. If you try to think about the Trump administration to be in terms of policy, in terms of intentionality, you`re really missing the point. All of those are instruments, the central thrust are going to be the scandals.
MELBER: When you say graft, I just -- you`re saying that when you see a video like this, and you see its lack of purpose or its total contradiction of everything he ran on for a year, you view that as kind of a sideshow because you`re concerned that this purpose will actually be corruption and sort of --
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Bilking the government by Trump?
FRUM: I don`t think you actually -- I think he intends to bilk foreign governments --
MELBER: Yes --
FRUM: More than the American government. Bilking the American government is hard, it`s got a lot of safeguards and the legal sanctions. So, he`s not going to transfer Yosemite Park to his own bank account.
What -- that would be dangerous. But what he is going to try is to use -- as we`ve seen already, to use his position as president to direct flows of foreign wealth to himself and to his family.
And without his tax returns, it`s going to be very hard even to know that is happening and therefore to enforce.
The policy stuff, you know, some of it work, some of it is pretty good actually, but it`s not the point.
MELBER: Well, let me go to Jonathan, David paints a dark picture. We`re going to be talking about that later in the hour as well.
Legally, Trump will not have to disclose his tax returns as president. So, that would be hard to track unless he has a change of heart.
The constitution does bar him taking direct benefits from foreign heads of state, foreign governments, but your view on what we`re seeing here.
JONATHAN ALTER, COLUMNIST, DAILY BEAST: Well, he`s in real danger of facing constitutional crisis when it comes to office if he doesn`t sell his holdings.
Or according to the constitution, he could get Congress to allow him to be in business with foreign governments.
Remember with sovereign wealth funds, when you`re in business with foreigners, you are in business with foreign governments.
The constitution has a flat prohibition on that in any circumstance whatsoever is the quote from the constitution. Encourage people to look at the emolument`s clause --
MELBER: Right --
ALTER: Of the constitution. So, this in the same way we have to respect the constitution when it comes to the electoral college.
You know, it`s not something that`s a convenience. Hillary won the popular vote, but she lost because of the constitution. The constitution prohibits him from doing business overseas.
MELBER: Right --
ALTER: So, he will either be facing impeachment or he will have to get Congress to exempt him, or he will have to sell his holdings, those are his only options.
MELBER: And David, the other part in this weird video was -- people have heard of two for one deals, he has now, I guess, as of today as president- elect, a regulatory plan, that`s a one for two deal on --
ALTER: Yes --
MELBER: Removing regulation, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will formulate a rule which says that for every one new regulation, two old regulations must be eliminated, so important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So important. David, what did you think of that, is that a good way to manage federal regulations?
FRUM: Look, this is a bromide that if you`ve attended as many conservatives after doing speeches as I have, you heard many times over the past 25 years. I cannot begin to count the number of -- usually -- it`s usually a one-for-one.
Two-for-one is I think -- it is an expansion, but it`s usually one-for-one. I think president -- Nicolas Sarkozy when he was president of France made a similar kind of commitment that would have been a decade and a half ago.
It was not a bad idea, it`s not a bad idea. A lot of the other things Donald Trump talks about are not bad ideas, they`re just not the point.
ALTER: Well, I think is a dopey idea. You know, it`s the kind of -- sort of simplistic solution to the complicated process of getting rid of some unnecessary regulations. In other cases regulating more to prevent another, you know, global recession.
The idea of repealing Dodd-Frank and putting us all at the mercy of these, you know, these banksters who took us into the -- into the dip in 2008, you know, is not a good idea.
And I think the Democrats in Congress will fight that deregulation. But the first thing he`s going to have to deal with are all of these little self-inflicted wounds.
I mean, for people who haven`t read the "New York Times" story today about "sieg heiling" the alt-right conference.
From now on, the alt-right should be and will be called the Neo-Nazi alt- right. So, he has this aide, Steve Bannon, who -- you know, he`s going to have to be dealing with this in the next few days.
My understanding is that, tomorrow is going to be a strong push-back on somebody who used his business "Breitbart" as -- by his definition, an alt- right platform. So, you have a guy who used a Neo-Nazi alt-right platform right next to the president-elect.
MELBER: Right --
ALTER: The Congress is not going to put up --
MELBER: And --
ALTER: With this --
(CROSSTALK)
FRUM: Jonathan, my strong advice --
ALTER: Yes --
FRUM: To things like that is do not bite at the dog biscuits. Follow the money. Everything else is just a dog biscuit --
ALTER: Well, you know what? This is -- David, when you have been literally "sieg heiling" -- if the "New York Times" reporter hadn`t stayed until the end on Saturday night, he wouldn`t have seen.
The alt-right is a Neo-Nazi --
FRUM: It`s --
ALTER: Movement.
FRUM: It`s a big --
ALTER: That`s not completely -- just look away from and say, oh, that`s --
FRUM: It`s a big --
ALTER: Just a little distraction. It`s a Neo-Nazi --
FRUM: It`s a big --
ALTER: Movement.
FRUM: It`s a big country full of sociopaths, many of them in the greater Washington area --
(CROSSTALK)
Many of them able to rent hotel rooms --
(CROSSTALK)
Follow --
ALTER: Neo-Nazi --
MELBER: Well, I`ll tell you what? --
FRUM: Follow the money --
MELBER: Gentlemen, I think you`re both hitting important points. We`re going to try --
ALTER: Yes --
MELBER: To do both because some of that new video is disturbing, some of it out just tonight. Jonathan Alter, thank you, David Frum, thank you.
ALTER: Thank you.
MELBER: Coming up, the man challenging Nancy Pelosi to lead the Democrats against Donald Trump is going to join us to react at these new videos and plans.
And as discussion -- as we were discussing the white nationalist who headed to D.C. to praise Trump and proclaim America is only for white people.
We`ll show you the new video, all while Donald Trump remains personally silent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER: To be white is to be a striver, a crusader, an explorer and a conqueror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Donald Trump has sent dozens of attack tweets until election day. Six tweets attacking the "New York Times" alone.
Three tweets attacking the cast of the play "Hamilton". Another tweet attacking "Saturday Night Live". But he never found the time to post any tweets to address this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER: Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!
(CHEERS)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: What white nationalist leaders said about Trump`s election this week, and new video and what Donald Trump has not said in response, that`s straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Donald Trump has come under fire for his uncomfortable and at times disgusting association with the white nationalist movement.
Tonight, there is a new video as I mentioned of a demonstration at a white nationalist conference that celebrated Trump`s victory this weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER: Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!
(CHEERS)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The man in that video is white nationalist leader Richard Spencer. He defended his remarks to Nbc today saying, "the alt-right is not a Neo- Nazi movement and that is a non-starter."
He also said, "there`s an ironic exuberance to it all, I think that`s what one of the things that makes the alt-right fun, because that we`re willing to do the things that are a bit cheeky."
A hateful speech coupled with a spike in hate crimes since Donald Trump`s election is a problem. The Southern Poverty Law Center accounts more than 700 reports now.
Seven hundred of hateful instance that since election day, leading calls for Trump to proactively and unambiguously speak out against these types of attacks as well as this type of speech. It`s not as if Donald Trump hasn`t found the time to comment on other public demonstrations.
And so, election day, we counted he sent 39 tweets with an attack on the cast of Broadway`s "Hamilton", an attack on those protests against him.
And after questions for comment from Msnbc today, the Trump transition team`s Bryan Lanza issued a response to that video, saying, "President- elect Trump has continued to denounce racism of any kind.
And he was elected because he will be a leader for every American. To think otherwise is a complete misrepresentation of the movement that united Americans from all backgrounds."
And joining us now is Kurt Bardella, president of Endeavor Strategies, he - - former client of "Breitbart".
Also joining us, Yoni Applebaum; politics editor at "The Atlantic", he has a documentary in development on Richard Spencer, as well as Mark Thompson; the host of "Make it Plain" on "Sirius Xm" radio.
Mark, I`ll start with you, your view of what we see in that video, this celebration by white nationalists of Donald Trump as someone from the so- called alt-right is his chief adviser in the White House.
And is that statement from a spokesperson enough?
MARK THOMPSON, RADIO HOST: It occurs. I mean, thank you for having me, Ari. It occurs to me that they`re going to play good cop/bad cop perhaps throughout his administration.
He`s going to make statements of, you know, slight or meek denunciation. But his followers are still going to do this.
And that, I guess, he thinks will absolve him or clear him. But we cannot allow that to happen. We must remind him and the American public that this comes from him.
It comes from his campaign, its left over from his campaign, canned, rehearsed statements are not sufficient.
In 2016 going into 2017, we cannot abide people giving the "heil" Hitler salute to Donald Trump. That is completely unacceptable.
And it really undermines and overshadows this notion, this argument that this was about a revolt to the white working class and the economy.
That takes all of that away, and it -- as much as all know, that this was really a white lashing about racism.
MELBER: Yes, and Yoni, this is something obviously you`re studying and something a lot of people don`t really want to see or think about, especially after an election where there was talk of division.
And so, sometimes there`s a mood of -- oh, gosh, can`t we move on or approach this presidency with an open mind? But this is happening in Washington without a real confrontation by the new president-elect.
Again, dispatching spokespersons to deal with it. Now, here`s more of Mr. Spencer talking about the media. I want you to unpack what he said after we hear it, here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER: The mainstream media or perhaps we should refer to them in the original German, lugenpresse.
(CHEERS)
Indeed, one wonders if these people are people at all.
(LAUGHTER)
Or instead soul-less Gollum, animated by some dark power to repeat whatever talking point John Oliver stated the night before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: What`s he conveying here? What is the context?
YONI APPLEBAUM, POLITICS EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, Spencer is a skilled provocateur.
And he is dredging up words that are well-known to his audience. Lugenpresse is a term coined during the first world war to refer to the lying press and then popularized by the Nazis during the second world war.
And he`s referring to reporters as Gollums, dredging up an image from Jewish history. What he`s trying to do here is to portray the press as sub-human and alien and the enemies of Spencer and of his movement.
MELBER: Right, and so, do you view it as directly anti-Semitic with all the Nazi references?
APPLEBAUM: Oh, I don`t think there`s any question about that. And I doubt Spencer himself would dispute that either. He was fairly forthright in his speech. He says it was a mood of ironic exuberance in retrospect.
Our producers who were there report that he`s right about the exuberance. This was a crowd that felt tremendously empowered by Donald Trump`s electoral win.
And whatever Trump thinks of them, they`re quite clear that they see in his election the signal that they`ve been waiting for, is that this is an opportunity for white nationalism.
MELBER: Right, and so, Kurt, let me read to you what the U.S. holocaust museum says about this.
They do not weigh in on every political debate, far from it. But there is a time to address these things directly.
And it doesn`t mean waiting until it is too violent or too late. So this is -- this is their words, not mine.
"The holocaust did not begin with killing, it began with words. The museum calls on all American citizens, our religious and civic leaders and the leadership of all branches of the government to confront racist thinking and divisive, hateful speech."
Your view in terms of the conservative piece of this and the "Breitbart" piece and the Bannon piece of whether Trump needs to do more, given the concern from organizations like that.
KURT BARDELLA, PRESIDENT, ENDEAVOR STRATEGIES: You know, the job of the president is to actually lead.
That so many people in this country take their cues from the person who is the most powerful person in this country.
And this is a time to be vigilant against hateful rhetoric, against demonstrations of racism and divisiveness.
And the thing is, Donald Trump got elected on an entire wave of anger, on being a provocateur, on trying to create divisions within the American people.
On highlighting and exploiting the worst instincts of humanity to try to get him into office and then to power. And now you see all of these groups are going to take their cues from this -- from this president.
And if he doesn`t lead and not through a spokesperson, not through a staffer that nobody knows or no one cares about. If he doesn`t take the direction to lead, things are going to get so much worse in this country.
So much more hate is going to spread, the vitriol, the normalization of this will happen. And it`s really incumbent upon all of us now to do what he won`t.
To stand up and say when something is wrong, and something is hateful, and something shouldn`t be happening, to be the first to stand up and point it out and be vigilant about it, and not back down.
MELBER: And you left "Breitbart" when you were there, affiliated with them. What was your view of Steve Bannon and his orientation towards this part of the so-called movement?
BARDELLA: Yes, and I -- you know, I was their media consultant. And when I saw, you know, them evolve from being a platform to kind of chronicle the center-right movement to becoming an active participant and the de facto propaganda arm of the Trump campaign, I thought that`s just something I couldn`t be associated with.
That`s why I made the decision to leave. Again, the normalization of this kind of rhetoric, giving a platform and the sounding board for people who are racist, who are homophobic, who are sexist, who are xenophobic to congregate everyday and make it OK to think in advance these types of ideas, when frankly it`s not.
MELBER: Right, and then there`s the piece that you mentioned, the fact that they released just a statement when asked, so reactively and not by Trump himself.
So, then Mark, you think about during the campaign when these things came up, Kellyanne Conway also said today, oh, he`s addressed this many times.
It`s sort of, hey, he doesn`t have to do it now by the way, he`s president- elect. You know, he did this before. Then you go back and look at before and surprised, no, he didn`t know -- do it well.
We pulled for example the discussion in February when he was asked on "Cnn" about his endorsement from or support from a KKK leader David Duke. And this was his bizarre, non-answer, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you unequivocally condemn David Duke and say that you don`t want his vote or that of other white supremacists in this election?
TRUMP: Well, just so you understand, I don`t know anything about David Duke, OK?
I don`t know anything about what you`re even talking about with the white supremacy or white supremacist.
So, I don`t know -- I mean, I don`t know, did he endorse me or what`s going on? Because you know, I know nothing about David Duke.
I know nothing about white supremacists. And so, you`re asking me a question that I`m supposed to be talking about people that I know nothing about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was a lot of "I don`t knows", then later came back and tried to clean it up.
But the history is not that clear either when they try to cite the history and say Trump`s always been against this stuff.
THOMPSON: That`s obfuscation where he probably doesn`t even know the meaning of, but that`s what he`s doing. And it`s not enough.
He`s got to come out strongly against it. He probably won`t do, Ari, and that`s the thing that`s scary.
And if we allow -- Spencer said this is fun and cheeky, so, maybe they do think they`re play-acting and playing dress up, so, they play like Nazis today.
They`re going to play like slave holders tomorrow or confederates the next day, or those in the crusades attacking Muslims or those who (INAUDIBLE) the Japanese.
Are they going to play all of these different roles? It`s not funny, it`s not fun, it`s not cheeky, it`s offensive. And it continues to divide America, and we all should stand together against it.
MELBER: And so, Yoni, looking at all this, how big a movement is this? What are your concerns about where this goes in this current climate?
APPLEBAUM: Look, Spencer himself is leading a relatively small movement. We`re talking about a couple of 100 participants who were there on Saturday.
There are thousands around the country who follow this movement. One thing that I worry about is whether there are others who feel empowered to act on their own perhaps as a result of this rhetoric.
But really, this should be a softball for any president. When somebody is quoting Nazis approvingly, that`s one that they should just tee up and hit out of the bark.
It`s not politically challenging to condemn this sort of thing. And the fact that Donald Trump has repeatedly been asked to do so, and so far what we`ve gotten is a statement out of his transition team.
I think it raises some very serious questions about the extent to which he recognizes the seriousness of what`s going on and whether or not he`s prepared to act and to do what he needs to do to clearly condemn it.
He didn`t say no, but this is not acceptable.
MELBER: Yoni Applebaum, Mark Thompson and Kurt Bardella, thank you all for joining me this evening.
THOMPSON: Thank you.
MELBER: Now, coming up, the Ohio congressman challenging Nancy Pelosi to be the new leader of the Democrats in the House is responding to what Donald Trump says he`ll do on day one.
Congressman Tim Ryan joins me, that`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT: On trade, I am going to issue a notification of intent to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a potential disaster for our country. Instead, we will negotiate fair, bilateral trade deals that bring jobs and industry back onto American shores.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Joining me now to react to Donald Trump`s new policy video is the Democrat now challenging Nancy Pelosi to be leader of the House Democratic Caucus, Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan. Thanks for joining me tonight.
REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: Thanks for having me.
MELBER: When you look at Donald Trump`s address there, including his remarks on trade, do you see anything you support?
RYAN: Well, I do think we need to take a look at TPP and reevaluate it. I don`t think we need to shut ourselves off from the world. We clearly have to be a player in the world. But I do think we need a new trade model. I understand that the trade models have been good in the aggregate. But it`s wiping out towns and communities all across our country. And we need to take a new look at it and I`m okay with that.
MELBER: So where do you draw a contract?
RYAN: But again, I don`t want to get into the --
MELBER: If you`re the leader of the democrats instead of Nancy Pelosi, where do you draw a contrast from what we`re seeing with Donald Trump right now?
RYAN: Well, the devil`s in the details. I mean I`d start with Bannon and Flynn and some of the appointments he`s made. And I`ve said that those folks would not be welcome in my office as minority leader. I`m not going to in anyway normalize this kind of white supremacist behavior and those kind of things. That`s not going to be welcome in my office and they won`t be welcome in my office.
And I think you got take it issue by issue. Look, I`ve been in Congress 14 years now. I`ve been long enough to know the devil is in the details. We want to sit down and we want to hear these proposals. a lot of this stuff before we can see and hear and then read something on paper is just kind of preliminary stuff. So we need to wait and see what it actually looks like.
MELBER: Sure, that makes sense. That`s part of Washington. But at the same time you can`t just wait around, some Democrats say, well, Donald Trump is kicking into high gear. Bannon`s telling folks he`s going to do a big infrastructure plan. But Democrat Ron Klain, who oversaw, as you probably know, the 2009 Recovery Act, which had a lot of spending. He says Democrats should oppose it out of the gate because it`s mostly moving around tax cuts for companies that are already doing building but won`t be making any new buildings. What`s your position on that if you were to be leader?
RYAN: Well, from what I`m looking at, I would be in agreement that we need to vigorously opposed this because it looks like a shell game. It looks like it`s gimmicks. And they`re trying to push one, you know, one kind rhetoric about rebuilding the country and then it`s going to be a give away.
Look, I was around in the Bush years when we passed the Clear Skies Bill that was a giveaway to, you know, big energy companies and things like that. So I understand what we`re hearing here, but we`ve got to actually see what the proposals are. If we`re going to do an Infrastructure Bill, it needs to be big. It needs to have Davis Bacon in it and project labor agreements. And it needs to be paid for. We`re not going to mortgage our kids` future on a give away that`s a big gimmick to a bunch of corporations. That`s not going to happen under my watch.
MELBER: There`s also talk about who should run the DNC. I spoke to a Democratic source this evening that there`s an idea about trying to get Joe Biden to play sort of an emeritus role, and to have a younger member of congress, one name floated was Joe Kennedy, do it that way. A, have you heard discussions on the Hill, and B, are you open to it?
RYAN: I think we need to be open to everything right now. The vote`s not till February. I love Joe Biden. I think he`s terrific. I have heard that rumor. And I serve with Joe Kennedy, who I think is a real rock star in our party, a real up and coming star, and I think, you know, he`s definitely under consideration.
But let`s see, you know, I`ve heard Tom Perez. I`ve heard others -- other names floated. So let`s see who gets fleshed out here in the next weeks and months and then start making a decision as to who would be best. But this is the rebuilding year for the for the democrats. And we`ve got to do it and do it quickly. We need a quick are turn around moving into `18, because the Republicans control of everything. So this is our shot to have a little win at our back because of the natural political cycle when there`s one party rule. So let`s get our act together. Let`s get new leaders in place and go at them.
MELBER: Interesting. All right, well, I`m far away in studio. But I didn`t sense any cold water going over the Biden idea from you. As you say, months until that final vote.
Congressman Tim Ryan, thanks for spending some time with us.
RYAN: Thank you. Thanks Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely, now coming up, more of that shocking video from Standing Rock. That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTEN WIIG, AMERICAN ACTRESS: Please stand withstanding rock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Kristen Wiig at the end of this week`s SNL. Members of the standing Rock Sioux Tribe along with other Native American tribes and other environmental groups have been camped out for months in North Dakota to protest the construction of 1,2000 mile Dakota Access Oil Pipeline. And late last night as well as into this morning, you may have seen some of this online. Some of those very protesters clashing with local law enforcement this was after they reportedly tried to remove a police blockade on a bridge. Now police were calling it a riot and used truck- mounted hoses to dowse those protesters with water. Keep in mind this was all while protesters had spent hours in below-freezing temperatures. This afternoon law enforcement defended those actions taken to end the confrontation.
KYLE KIRCHMEIER, MORTON COUNTY SHERIFF: It was used at a time to where they were aggressive towards the officers. In this circumstance, it was the best option that we had at that point. We`re just not going to let people and protesters in large groups come in and threaten officers. That`s not happening.
MELBER: Authorities also used tear gas and feared rubber bullets. This was an attempt they said to disburse those crowds. Protest organizers say 17 people were taken to local hospitals for both hypothermia as well as other injuries related to the protest. And the Sheriff says one police officer was hurt. Meanwhile, we can tell you a tribe leader is saying that quote the use of water in freezing temperatures goes to show they are being more aggressive and they`re actually trying to hurt people.
This is far more threatening to human life than any other time of confrontation with law enforcement. Supporters have been posting reactions all day. Democrat Senator Al Franken tweeted this, I`ve urged Loretta Lynch in the Justice Department to protect the safety and first amendment rights of protesters.
Also this from actor Mark Ruffalo who joined the protest last month. He wrote "(INAUDIBLE) no Dakota access protester should be treated with violence. Tell the North Dakota Governor." Amensty International is saying today that it will send more human rights observers to monitor these unfolding protest. A company that`s billing the pipeline meanwhile Energy Transfer Partners says it will continue to move forward with its construction. We will keep you posted on that story here on the Last Word. Now coming up next, all the President-Elect`s business conflicts. Stay with us.
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MELBER: It did not take long for tensions to arise over Donald Trump`s attempt to be Commander In Chief and CEO all at once once. Consider just these new reports in meeting with the British politician Trump asked to wind farms that might hurt his golf course`s business prospects in the region. He brought up construction project where seeking permits in Argentina when that country`s President called in him to congratulate him on his victory. We should note the President office later denied that. Trump also is still holding business meetings with partners from other countries recently huddled with Indian executives.
And Trump`s Washington, D.C. hotel put out an odd statement, welcoming foreign governments to patronize the hotel tonight. That was after criticism in the Washington Post that foreign diplomats saw that as a potential chance to curry favor with President-Elect Trump. Now Trump reacted to those reports tonight in part by tweeting this. Prior to the election, it was well-known I have interests in properties all over the world. Only the crooked media makes this a big deal. Now those were just four examples of the president-elect`s business interests posing potential conflicts. He can be indirectly enriched to a bribe by foreign governments or face and kind of attempted leverage or even punishment from countries that can make or break his many, many foreign businesses.
Is this all legal? I will tell you the answer is yes and no. Yes, many federal laws governing conflicts do not cover the president, and Trump doesn`t have to sell anything under law by the way. But that doesn`t mean that he can be on the take. Our system has something far stronger than those federal laws you may have heard about, which congress is can always pass or repeal. We have a constitution.
And while few presidents have tested these types of constitutional rules, they do exist. In fact, the founders were so concerned about bribes they barred them in two parts of the constitution. The Emolument`s clause which bars officials from accepting presents or benefits from foreign influences and then the impeachment clause, the founders reserved impeachment to address high crimes by presidents, and they only listed two of them by name, treason and bribery.
The foreign governments think they can bribe our president? They`re not doing him a favor. If he went along, they would be setting him up for one of the most blatant impeachable offenses on the books. Joining me now, two people who understand all this, Paul Butler who`s a Georgetown law professor and a former federal prosecutor specializing in corruption and back with me David Frum who was all over this story earlier tonight.
Starting with you Paul, The constitution cares a lot about the notion of bribing the president.
PAUL BUTLER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: Indeed it does. So, here`s a president-elect who has a hundred business interests in 18 different countries. There`s not a law against a rich guy becoming president. The question is, can he set aside his personal interests and simply pursue the interest of the United States. So when we see instances like the ones you outlined. When we see his daughter who`s going to be running his business empire, sitting in a meeting with the Japanese prime minister, no security clearance, that raises questions.
So we`re a long way away from any kind of suggestion of bribery or unjust enrichment. But the point is you still will avoid the appearance of impropriety. And so far the president-elect isn`t doing a good job of that.
MELBER: And David what is so strikingly problematic is this is a man who ran on saying, I don`t need donors, I won`t owe anyone because I`m rich. And then his 60 minutes interview, the only interview he has done since his election, he spun that further out and saying it`s a big deal he`s not taking a salary. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I`m very confident he`s not breaking any laws here as many --
LESLEY STAHL, AMERICAN TELEVISION JOURNALIST: Are you going to take the salary? The president`s salary?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I`ve never commented on this, but the answer is no. I think I have to by law take one dollar. So I`ll take one dollar a year but it`s a -- I don`t even know what it is. Do you know what the salary is?
STAHL: 400,000 you`re giving up.
TRUMP: I am not going to take the salary, I`m not taking it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So, David he doesn`t even know what it is, but we`re hearing multiple independent and international reports that he has his all his business interest on the brain. He seems to know what they are?
DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well as Dr. Evil put it, why make billions when you can make trillions? Why make a lousy $400,000 when you can set up your affairs in a way to make money on a Putin-like scale. What you talked about the constitutional implications here. When the founding fathers talked about impeachment at the constitutional convention and in federal at 65, 69 and 70, these are the classic text. The paradigmatic example of the impeachable offense, the thing they had most in mind was that the president or other high officers would receive presents or payments from foreign powers.
And the reason they were so concurrent was in the time of the writing of these document, in the 1770s, 1780s, 1790s, the last republics they knew of on earth were being snuffed out one by one by one in every case because powerful, wealthy foreign neighbors were intervening in the affairs of those republics bribing factions and purchasing power within the republic with foreign presidents. That is exactly the core evil that the impeachment clause was designed to prevent.
MELBER: Right, so you look at say, the most recent reporting on Nigel Farage, the British politician`s discussion with Trump. This is in -- Nigel, this is in the Times Tonight. I`ll read from it.
FRUM: Yes.
MELBER: When President-elect Donald J. Trump met with the British politician Nigel Farage in recent days, he encouraged him and his entourage to oppose the kind of offshore wind farms that Mr. Trump believes will mar the pristine view from one of his two Scottish golf courses, that`s according to one who is directly inside the meeting according to Times. That`s what we call a decent source. And David that is in a sense a flip side of what you just articulated. Not that the foreign governments are bringing it up.
Here we have a president-elect reportedly --
FRUM: Yes.
MELBER: -- bringing up a benefit that would directly enrich him.
FRUM: Well what`s even more an appetizing but this, is in the time of the founders, the United States was a small, weak republic, surrounded by powerful enemies or potential enemies. Today the United States is the strongest country in the world. So, what`s happening here is not that the president is being bribe. The president is turning to an extortionist. The president saying I control the most powerful state in the world, and I am going to deploy the assets of the United States to incentivize or intimidate people into paying me.
If the story from Argentina is true, he is pressuring the Argentines to help him with the construction problem. If the report on Nigel Farage is true, he is trying to immobilize people in Britain to curry his favor by making his golf course nicer. But in every case he is taking something that belongs to the American people, the strength of the American state, and use it for his purposes.
MELBER: Let me go to professor and former prosecutor Butler. Because everyone understands when you prosecute this kind of cases, it`s not always a bag of cash, right? If Ted Stevens got the benefit of work done on a house he owned, an indirect financial benefit and lost his (INAUDIBLE) that was indicted over it.
BUTLER: That`s right.
MELBER: How do you view this as the prosecutor, How would you even enforce this against a president who would do the investigating?
BUTLER: It was completely unchartered territory. It would be a conflict of interest, again, for the attorney general who is appointed by the president to do the investigation. So an independent prosecutor would have to be appointed. The question is, this is so easy to avoid.
All he has to do is liquidate his holdings.
MELBER: Right.
BUTLER: Which again that might be a lot for him. But at least put them in a blind trust.
MELBER: But if he doesn`t liquidate, because he`s basically made it very clear repeatedly, that is not what he intends to do.
BUTLER: Yes.
MELBER: And a senator session is going before the senate. What`s the question of senators should be asking him about patrolling this.
BUTLER: Yes. They should ask, do you have a legal counsel, a White House counsel who is going to give you independent advice that you will take. Because as long as that`s in place, again people will say you can`t do this. The question is whether when someone tells the Donald you can`t do this, whether he will listen. You know, when we look at sessions.
The person he appointed to be Attorney General, he`s not a person who seems to be all that independent. You know, he said about the sexual -- he said about the groping allegation, I don`t see that as sexual assault. He`s got to know better, so the question is whether the Donald --
MELBER: Right.
BUTLER: Is appointing people who will do his will. We don`t need a legal counsel who does that. That`s the only person at this point who`s standing between us and a president with an amazing number of conflicts.
MELBER: Well and you put it well, that`s important for folks to consider because the position of attorney general is not the president`s personal lawyer. It`s the people`s lawyer.
BUTLER: That`s right.
MELBER: Paul Butler and David Frum, thank you both on an important topic that I suspect we`ll be covering again. Now coming up, a man allegedly caught talking about attacking Times Square is charged -- new tonight with supporting terrorism, we have the latest on that, next.
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MELBER: Now coming up next, that deadly terror attack in Nice, France this summer was a frightening low-tech operation, a truck that was driven just right into a crowd. Now we can tell you prosecutors are charging a suspect who allegedly talked about conducting or exploring a Nice-style attack right here in Times Square, we have the details, that`s next.
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MELBER: 86 people were killed in that terror attack in Nice, France on Bastille Day on July 14th. A Brooklyn man now is allegedly caught talking on social media about trying or hoping to conduct a similar attack in Times Square, New York that would be on behalf of the Islamic state. Now today federal prosecutors charged him Mohammad Naji, a permanent legal resident from Yemen with material support for terrorism.
He has not entered a plea yet. Joining us now, WNBC Chief Investigative correspondent Jonathan Dienst who is all over these stories, how did authorities find out about this?
JONATHAN DIENST, WNBC CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they`ve been tracking his travels five times, they say he tried to go overseas to try get into Syria, he failed. But they say he was successful getting into Yemen, meeting with known radicals, and they did have an informant and it was an informant who helped make some of the recordings of some of the alleged statements including statements about how he wanted to drive a truck through Times Square targeting the crowds and people who are in them.
MELBER: The travel obviously key because it shows effort, How did they define whether this travel is somehow okay or just going somewhere versus travel in an effort to make contact with ISIS?
DIENST: They say through his social media, through his travels in terms of where he was trying to cross, who he was in contact with overseas, these were repeated efforts to try to join the ISIS terror group, that according to FBI officials. He is from Yemen originally, the defense has claimed that, look, he was just going there to visit family. The FBI had informants in place and had been tracking him, and especially once he came back here, he allegedly continued his radical views and some of his radical planning.
And that`s when they decided, hey, it`s time to move in, especially with the Thanksgiving Day Parade coming up.
MELBER: Right. And so, legally, if they can prove that that`s enough because material support for terrorism means you`re trying to help but it doesn`t mean you pulled off the attack. Now talk to us about this security side for folks New York (ph) Times Square. What was the space between where this person was and any kind of operational ability?
DIENST: Right. As of now, he didn`t have much money, but there was aspiration, not operations.
MELBER: Got it.
DIENST: So he apparently made these comments about how he wanted to target Times Square, but the governor today and FBI officials and NYPD officials said look there was no specific plot in the works, we were monitoring him the whole time, and we just felt now was the time --
MELBER: No active plot?
DIENST: No active plot, to strike at Times Square. The criminal charges deal with his travel overseas and his attempts to join with ISIS and this continues to be a concern. There are more than 250 Americans who the FBI and NYPD believe have traveled from the U.S. to try to join ISIS and are trying to come back to this country, and this they say is one example of that.
MELBER: Those are individuals that they are tracking but haven`t prosecuted and the fear is they return back as a greater danger.
DIENST: There are some who they have prosecuted, that is a total number of about 250, and of course there are those they don`t even know about.
MELBER: Right. Well it is always harrowing and appreciate your reporting on to get a sense of it. You look at Times Square, you look at iconic places in New York, it raises concerns, and yet as your context and nuance shows, it is not something where people should worry about going to Times Square this week. It is not that kind of threat that we`ve heard. Jonathan Dienst, thank you very much.
We are out of time. I want to tell you, MSNBC`s coverage continues right now into "THE 11TH HOUR" with Brian Williams. Stay tuned, that is next.
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