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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 6/28/2016

Guests: Wendy Sherman, Laith Alkhouri, Graeme Wood, Dan Rather, David Corn, Tim Miller

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: June 28, 2016 Guest: Wendy Sherman, Laith Alkhouri, Graeme Wood, Dan Rather, David Corn, Tim Miller

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And Rachel, I guess it raises the question of would France and Belgium be on his list of terror countries?

MADDOW: Or the 9/11 attacks being planned significantly in Germany. Does --


MADDOW: Germany count as one of those countries, exactly?

O`DONNELL: Well, we may never find out.

MADDOW: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Thank you --

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks --

O`DONNELL: Well, terror came to Turkey today, Ambassador Wendy Sherman will join us with her reaction to the suicide bomber attacks at Istanbul`s airport.

And we`ll get Dan Rather`s reaction to what Donald Trump had to say about today`s attack.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major terrorist attack at the airport in Istanbul.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This happened at the arrival`s area.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a coordinated as well as a deadly assault on the third busiest airport in Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this disturbing video, it appears to be the lower level of the international terminal, the tape not verified by "Nbc News".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspicion is falling on two groups, ISIS and Kurdish separatists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In another unverified video, an attacker who appears to be shot by police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the air we`re in now.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have to get it right 24/7, 365. They have to get it right for ten minutes or one hour. So, it`s a very different scale.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton responding in a statement with -- reading part, "terrorists have struck again in the heart of one of our NATO allies and all Americans stand united with the people of Turkey against this campaign of hatred and violence.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Folks, there`s something going on that`s really bad.


O`DONNELL: It is 5:00 a.m. in Turkey now, where a terror attack has devastated Istanbul`s international airport; the third largest airport in Europe.

At least 36 people are dead and 147 injured after multiple suicide bombers blew themselves up at that airport. U.S. authorities in Istanbul are working to determine if any American citizens are among the victims.

New video appears to show the explosions. Nbc News has not yet independently verified these videos. They are shocking to watch.

One video appears to be cellphone video of a security monitor, and it is consistent with other videos of the attack area.

Another video shows people running across the airport and then a large explosion. We must warn you that a third video is graphic and disturbing in this unverified video, an attacker appears to be shot by police.

And then moments later, that person detonates explosives. No group has yet claimed credit for the attack, but a senior U.S. counterterrorism official tells Nbc News` Richard Angle, "it is very likely", that`s his -- those were his words, "very likely, that the attack was the work of a group of 35 terrorists that ISIS has sent to Turkey."

The officials said the attack might be the first of several tied to the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Here is Secretary of State John Kerry this afternoon just a couple of hours after the attack.


KERRY: I might just comment -- I want to make sure, according to press reports, at least, are dead and some 40 wounded and we are still collecting information and trying to ask then, what happened and who did it?

And I won`t comment further on it, except to say that this is daily affair. And that`s why I say, the first challenge we need to face is countering non-state violent actors for host of reasons.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Wendy Sherman, former U.S. Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, Ambassador Sherman is also the senior counselor at Albright Stonebridge Group.

Ambassador Sherman, why Turkey?


First, I want to express my condolences, I think everyone`s, to the Turkish people, to the survivors, to the families of those who have perished.

To all Turks who, tonight, I`m sure, are mourning in the same way. So many communities around the world have mourned.

Indeed, we talk about in our political dialogue, Islam and Muslims, more Muslims have died at the hands of terrorists than any other group in the world.

And this is one more night of horror in that vein. There are many things going on. Turkey is a NATO ally and, indeed, there`s a NATO summit on the 8th and 9th of July coming up, where they were going to be discussing terrorism among other things and security solidarity.

Turkey has been part of the coalition that has been fighting against ISIS in Syria and Iraq and, obviously, making progress on the ground and Iraq Fallujah was just retaken.

And we know that when ISIS loses territory, they look to either inspire, direct, or plant cells in countries around the world to make a statement to show recruits they`re still powerful.

They don`t want people to come to Syria because they will die in Syria. They are not moving forward in Syria, and so they have to reach out and do other things.

In addition, this is the third largest airport in Europe, the 11th largest airport in the world. This is a statement to say, Turkey should not work with everyone else in the world to get rid of one of the greatest scourges on the face of the earth.

O`DONNELL: And speaking of working with everyone else in the world, Turkey has been working to improve its relations with Israel recently, including some very recent agreements that they`ve made.

Is there any possibility that this attack would have been directly linked to that, or is that timing more coincidental?

SHERMAN: I think the timing is probably more coincidental because it just happened this past Sunday, and that`s too short a time to have planned this attack.

I think this was a very sophisticated attack and it probably took more than three or four days to put together. There had been a lot of rumors in the press that, in fact, Turkey and Israel were going to find their way finally, to an agreement after so many years.

And I`m glad they have, because there will now be more intelligence sharing, more cooperation, and a greater chance that we can get to some of the issues that Turkey has been working on, but still needs to work on to close the border with Syria.

Which has really, over the years at times, been as if it`s better, but still work, more work needs to be done.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to more of what your former boss John Kerry had to say today.



KERRY: It has been more than one year since Daesh has actually launched a full scale military offensive. And that`s because our coalition is moving forward relentlessly on every front.

Now, yes, you can bomb an airport. You can blow yourself up, that`s the tragedy. Daesh and others like it know that we have to get it right 24/7, 365, they have to get it right for ten minutes or one hour.

So, it`s a very different scale. And if you`re desperate and if you know you`re losing and you know you want to give up your life, then, obviously, do some harm.


O`DONNELL: Ambassador Sherman, do you agree with that interpretation that this kind of attack is actually as a result of the success that the U.S. and the allies have been having against ISIS?

SHERMAN: Well, as I said a moment ago, indeed, as ISIS has lost more territory, there have been more of these terror attacks outside of Iraq and Syria, I am afraid to say there may indeed be more as you noted in the intro to this.

There`s the -- this is the last ten days of Ramadan and the leader of ISIS has called for attacks during the holy month of Ramadan in the last ten days of the holiest days of that.

Not only has Turkey created a better relationship with Israel, they`re also trying to make up with Russia. And so they are really trying to create some solidarity in the world to go forward, to deal with this incredible situation that we all have to face together.

But, I think, Lawrence, one of the things we all have to be sobered up about here as we have our political dialogue, which is pretty intense at the moment, is this is a really sober reality and we need sober and serious people who know what they`re doing.

It`s a very complex world that there are no simple answers. There is no one sentence. There is no one act. There is no one thing we can do and I know the American public feels like they want to pull up the bridges, use our oceans to protect us.

But we know from 9/11 that oceans won`t protect us. And so we have to work together with the rest of the world to get rid of this terrorists threat.

To get rid of Daesh and do everything necessary to do so, including dealing with the intense propaganda that ISIS uses quite effectively through social media.

We have to work with the private sector, with government, with civil society, and with allies and partners around the world to end it.

O`DONNELL: Is there any tactical change you might expect to see from the administration as a result of this attack?

SHERMAN: I think we will certainly see particular with the July 4th holiday coming up, intense scrutiny at airports at all of the celebrations for the 4th of July.

I think we will see more police on the street. We need Americans to feel safe during this time. I think we will see a whole review of the airport security once again to see what we need to do.

The security at Istanbul`s airport, at a Turk airport is quite extensive, I`ve gone through that airport and that particular spot many times, and it is very intense security.

But as others have noticed tonight, you can push that perimeter out again and again, I think tactically in the bigger war against this kind of terrorism, we need to double-down on what we`ve been doing.

That is to reclaim territory, led by the Iraqis themselves, by forces on the ground, the opposition in Syria to take back territory with some advisors from the United States and from other allies and partners in the Gulf.

We need to work on the propaganda war which is quite intense. We need to stop foreign fighters from returning. We have to work with law enforcement to find out who they are and intelligence sources.

And we know that intelligence cooperation has to increase in Europe, there has to be much more intelligence sharing so that things can be known early on.

And I want to give a shout out particularly to the families of the police, who -- some of whom appear to have died this evening in Istanbul.

Who probably kept those suicide bombers from doing even more damage and more death and destruction than they did. Quite extraordinary acts of heroism.

O`DONNELL: Yes, it was truly heroic, Ambassador Wendy Sherman, thank you very much for joining us on this difficult night. Thank you.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the presidential candidates` responses to the attacks. We`ll get Dan Rathers` reaction.


O`DONNELL: Fight fire with fire. That`s what Donald Trump said today, proving that he has never actually fought fire. That`s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: If the attack in Turkey is the work of the Islamic State, it is the latest indication of the challenges in fighting that group.

The United States has been carrying out airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria since August of 2014. And just days ago, Iraqi forces recaptured the city of Fallujah; a key ISIS stronghold.

Today, Brett McGurk, Special Presidential Envoy for the Global Coalition to Counter ISIL was on Capitol Hill to give the Senate Foreign Relations Committee an update on the progress in the war against ISIL.


BRETT MCGURK, SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR THE GLOBAL COALITION TO COUNTER ISIL: Foreign fighters are down, and more countries never before sharing information outside financing has been severed and internal financing has taken a significant hit.

ISIL`s propaganda messaging has now being challenged 24/7 through a global network.


O`DONNELL: Earlier this month, CIA Director John Brennan went before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence with this assessment.


JOHN BRENNAN, DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Unfortunately, despite all our progress against ISIL on the battlefield and in the financial realm, our efforts have not reduced the group`s terrorism capability and global reach.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Graeme Wood; contributing editor for "The Atlantic" and the author of the piece, "The War ISIS Wants".

Also with us, Laith Alkhouri, Msnbc terror analyst and director of Middle East and North Africa research and analysis for "Flash Point".

Laith, John Brennan`s assessment got a tremendous amount of attention at the time that even though we have all this progress on the battlefield, as it were, this part, holding down them going into an airport as suicide bombers is the hardest part.

LAITH ALKHOURI, MSNBC TERROR ANALYST & DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS: Oh, absolutely. Look, one, these types of attacks are extremely hard to intercept, foil or even collect intelligence on, especially if they`re carried out without direction from the group.

But also ISIS expanding well beyond Iraq, Syria and Libya today, very heavily in Southeast Asia. We see actually training camps pop up in the Philippines, we see assassinations being carried out in Bangladesh and Indonesia.

We see them breaching attacks in Malaysia. We see them expanding in Afghanistan and Pakistan beyond control.

So, while ISIS might be facing some challenges in its stronghold in Iraq and Syria, it`s certainly expanding elsewhere.

O`DONNELL: Graeme Wood, your reaction to what we saw today? And what does it tell us about what`s coming?

GRAEME WOOD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: I think one thing that`s important to notice, that ISIS has been relatively mild in its attacks toward Turkey so far.

To attack the airport in Istanbul is a direct attack. You know, Turkey has been a transit point for ISIS fighters for so long.

And in some of the recent statements from the group and as well as even in what we heard from Brett McGurk today, it`s clear that Turkey has made it much more difficult for those fighters to transit.

And so, to attack Turkey, it means it`s on between these two entities, Turkey and the Islamic State.

O`DONNELL: OK, so, Laith, what does it mean that it`s on between these two? So, Turkey has made it more difficult for them to transit, they decide we`ve had enough, we`re going to attack the airport.

Doesn`t this make it impossible for them to transit. I mean, does it make it even worse?

ALKHOURI: Not necessarily impossible, but not necessarily worse either. Look, the border region is long and pretty fierce --


ALKHOURI: And they can enter from multiple locations.

O`DONNELL: Let`s get -- let`s get the map of Turkey up there on the screen when we talk about this border, that just show how vulnerable it is, how long -- how exposed Turkey is to Syria and Iraq.

ALKHOURI: And exactly, and in Aleppo, you have actually multiple regions controlled by multiple parties, not only ISIS, you have areas controlled by army, you have also areas controlled by the Kurds.

But the -- in the -- in the bigger picture, really, this is a message not only to Turkey, this is a message if it was indeed directed by ISIS to the entire coalition that we can strike not only, you know, against any kind of target, but also in the heart of the airport, significantly your main fear today, directed towards the west.

O`DONNELL: But Graeme, I assume some people look at that map and think, well, this country shares a border with Syria and Iraq, we don`t.

Whatever country we`re in, Italy or United States, France. How threatened should the rest of the world feel by an attack in Turkey?

WOOD: Well, they certainly -- if it is the Islamic State and they chose the -- at a Turkey airport in Istanbul, that they`re shooting a site of cosmopolitanism.

It`s the gateway of Turkey to the west, to the rest of the world. And so, I do think that to the statement that is being sent is that we`re attacking not just Turkey, but the rest of the world as well.

Whether that means that we should feel more threatened and say, in Europe or the United States, I doubt it. But it`s definitely a statement beyond the borders of Turkey as well.

O`DONNELL: Laith, well, does Turkey certainly prior to all of these troubles used to be a very popular Summer destination for people traveling from this country and others.

What do you think this means for international travel and the way people regard the safety of airports around the world?

ALKHOURI: Look, certainly, it creates massive anxiety especially that this airport, one of the busiest in the world, you have people from all over the world coming through it.

And not only westerners, clearly people throughout the Middle East, Muslim people traveling through the holy month of Ramadan.

I think it sends, you know, anxiety across travelers. And I think it might have an impact on the tourism industry inside Turkey itself.

Now, whether that`s going to be short term or long term, that all depends on whether more attacks, more anxiety will unfold, there it is.

O`DONNELL: Graeme, do you agree with what we`re hearing from the administration from Secretary Kerry that, you see more of these desperate acts, the more successful the U.S. is on the battlefield?

WOOD: I think that`s true. I think the fact that foreign fighters are being interdicted means that Turkey is no longer as valuable to the Islamic State.

That if they have a further crack down from Turkey, then it will just be a crack down on a pipeline that`s already mostly even shut off.

So, when we see attacks overseas, then I do think there`s increase, as we see places like Manbij, Ramadi, Fallujah turn into failures and defeats for the Islamic State and their home territory.

O`DONNELL: Before this attack, I boarded a plane in Los Angeles early this morning, by the time I got off that plane, JFK, the airport was filled with special police, New York City police, a heavily armed -- and do -- can we expect as air travelers to see something different from this point forward for the rest of the Summer probably?

ALKHOURI: We should certainly expect it, it happened after 9/11. It happened after every single major terror attack that targeted airports or not.

So, we should expect, you know, an increased security, whether in airports here in the United States or overseas.

But I think in the -- in the grand scheme of things, this war, if you want to label it as war with ISIS, it`s only still unfolding.

I mean, there`s a lot of steps to take to defeat that kind of threat, whether psychologically, you know, not letting the fears seep in or actually combating them on the ground or online.

And so, it`s going to be a multi-faceted war and we should expect more intensified security at the airports going forward, not only for the rest of the Summer, but likely in the future.

O`DONNELL: And Graeme, we don`t yet have a claim of responsibility here, but assuming it`s ISIS, are there any more tactics? Are there any possible tactical changes that are available to the administration?

WOOD: I think not at this point. The types of attacks that ISIS chooses to use are the hardest to intercept, the hardest to stop once they`re -- once they`re rolling.

Now, we see that they didn`t try to smuggle a bomb on to a plane --

O`DONNELL: Right --

WOOD: With which we`ve worked really hard to stop them from being able to do. They attacked the outer layer of security and they penetrated it.

This is something that it`s not as if we can -- we can increase security measures everywhere at every level of the airport. Once you drive up to it, at some point you`re going to meet the first security person.

And that`s where ISIS has chosen to attack. The measures that are available to the administration are mostly military ones in ISIS` core territory and those are being pursued quite actively.

O`DONNELL: Laith Alkhouri and Graeme Wood, thank you both for joining us tonight --

WOOD: Thank you --

O`DONNELL: Appreciate it. Up next, the presidential candidate`s reaction to the attack in Turkey. Dan Rather will join us.


O`DONNELL: A politician saying you have to fight fire with fire proves two things at the same time. One, that politician has an overly simplistic world view untroubled by clich‚, and two, that politician has never been a firefighter, never actually fought fire.


TRUMP: We have to be so strong, we have to fight so viciously and violently because we`re dealing with violent people, vicious people.


Can you imagine them sitting around the table or wherever they`re eating their dinner talking about the Americans don`t do waterboarding, and yet we chop off heads.

They probably think we`re weak, we`re stupid, we don`t know what we`re doing, we have no leadership -- you know, you have to fight fire with fire.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Dan Rather, former anchor of the "Cbs Evening News", and host of "Axs TV`s" "The Big Interview".

So, Dan, fight fire with fire, does that -- does that mean fight terrorism with terrorism?

DAN RATHER, JOURNALIST: Well, frankly, I don`t know exactly --

O`DONNELL: Yes, we never know what he means, yes --

RATHER: But we do know what we`re into here, that Donald Trump is making a plea to people`s emotions.

And as individuals we always have to struggle with emotion versus reasoning. And so it is with the presidential campaign, Donald Trump has made his bet.

His bet is that as the terrorists attacks increase and they probably will increase, as the terrorists get more desperate, they haven`t had a battlefield victory in what? A year, maybe.


RATHER: So, they`ll get more desperate. But his bet is that as the terrorist attacks increase, perhaps his economy, is a little more wobbly, people respond more to an emotional appeal than they will to and appeal to reason.

Which is where President Obama and Hillary Clinton have positioned themselves.

O`DONNELL: Well, here is how Hillary Clinton fought fire today in this statement. She said, "Terrorists have struck again in the heart of one of our NATO allies and all Americans stand united what the people of turkey against this campaign of hatred and violence.

Already stories of heroism on the part of Turkish police are emerging, as the part of Turkish police are emerging, as their quick actions to confront the suspects may have prevented an even worse tragedy. Today`s attack in Istanbul only strengthens our resolve to defeat the forces of terrorism and radical Jihadism around the world, and it reminds us that the United States cannot retreat.

We must deepen our cooperation with our allies and partners in the Middle East and Europe to take on this threat. Such cooperation is essential to protecting the homeland and keeping our country safe." Totally, totally different reaction.

RATHER: Well, there you have it. You will emotion, gave it a reason. Anyone who says you fight fire with fire has never been a firefighter. I would suggest that the best firefighters, now you do not firefighter with emotion.


RATHER: You do measure it, thoughtful. In this case with what we are facing with the terrorists, this is a complex world. This is a complex subject. It calls for choosing where are you going to take them on and how you are going to take them on.

Take them on, but take them on at a time and place of our choosing. Another metaphor might be, I tried to box when I was in high school. I did not box very well. Anybody whoever box knows than an emotional fighter in the ring is a vulnerable fighter.

When you get stung, and you says, go at it, that is dangerous to do. What you need to do is steady, get your head, look for an opening. Now, I am not sure that metaphor will apply, but it has gone through my mind today.

O`DONNELL: What do you think has changed in the American voter`s mind that so far minority of voters, who favor Donald Trump, because that notion of steadiness and showing steadiness has been the presidential concept for a very long time. And that is what people have been voting for, is we want the person who is going to be steady and cool in the heat of fire.

RATHER: Well, that is the way people have been voting and President Obama`s approval rating has been going up recently, MAYBE as high as they have been with the possible exception -- first elected. So it is going to plan on this presidential campaign. Donald Trump, I think I said on this program before, I still believe Donald Trump can win.

There is a path that his path is getting narrower and narrower it seems to me. Hillary Clinton could still win very big. Her path is wider and easier. But there is still a very long time to go as you and I both know covering politics over the years. The harder the campaign does not start until after Labor Day.


RATHER: And here we are at 1st of July.

O`DONNELL New Washington Post poll on the question of, who do you trust more to handle terrorism very relevant today and the latest number shows Hillary Clinton at 50. Donald Trump at 39. And that comes in the aftermath of what we saw on Orlando in which Donald Trump`s reaction, apparently, did not play well for him.

RATHER: Well, I am not much a believer in polls period, but particularly during this time of presidential campaign, I frankly think more most polls are about as useless as a pulled tooth. But my sense of the country is that in the wake of Orlando, that what candidate Clinton had to say played much better with the public at large than what Donald Trump had to say.

But, again, I come back to Trump has put nearly all of his chips on as time goes along, he is betting that more and more people say, listen, we cannot go on this way, we have got to have change and present himself as an agent of change.

O`DONNELL: There is another item on this ABC Washington Post Poll, specifically, about the candidate`s response to Orlando and it showed that 59 percent thought that Hillary Clinton`s temperament was better. 53 percent thought she had the confidence that could handle the situation like that as president.

And so those poll numbers for what they are worth, and I agree with you, they are not worth a great deal. Still, when you are on the Trump end of those poll numbers in a campaign, the campaign war room starts to panic.

RATHER: Well, you would think so, but that raises the question, Lawrence, whether Donald Trump has a presidential campaign as it has been defined in the past.


RATHER: There is no indication that there is a grass roots organization in place. That is one precinct by precinct and door by door, and it requires a tremendous amount of organization. Now, Donald Trump may be the first in history, if he continues this way, it is sort of a top only campaign without the under pennings, he may be the first presidential campaign in history to win, but I have to be convinced.

But we keep waiting for him to get that organization going. Part of it has to do with money. Many big republican campaign contributors are at least holding out. Some of them are just saying not now or never. So I keep coming back, there are ways to go, but time is beginning to run out on Donald Trump.

And I think the path for his possible winning, there is still a path gets narrower and narrower. We will know more, perhaps, after the conventions, but I do not think we will be able to say definitively anything close to a real trend until after labor day.

O`DONNELL: All right. Unless you feel something definitive. You got to rush in here. I hope to see you many times before that. Thank you, Dan, very much.

RATHER: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I appreciate it.

Up next, Donald Trump gave his ideas today about international trade. A very important policy speech that changes the history of the Republican Party on that subject.




DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The trans pacific partnership is another disaster, don and pushed by special interest who want to rape our country just to continuing rape of our country. That is what it is too. It is a harsh word. It is a rape of our country. This is done by wealthy people that want to take advantage of us and that want to sign another partnership.


O`DONNELL: And so there you have Donald Trump`s definition of rape. Joining us now is Tim Miller, an Advisor to Our Principles PAC and the former Communications Director for Jeb Bush 2016. Also joining us David Corn, the Washington Bureau Chief from Mother Jones and an MSNBC Political Analyst.

Tim Miller, as republican, I have to ask you about this Trump speech today beyond this description of rape, which apparently his speech writer put write in there, so Donald Trump and the teleprompter will sound like Donald Trump. This was a complete refuting of all previous republican policy on international trade today.

TIM MILLER, ADVISOR, OUR PRINCIPLES PAC:Yes. If he was not a serial liar, you might hear from David after me that he liked what Donald had to say, because he sounded more like Ralph Nader than like a republican politician.

And, this is extremely troublesome, you know, why I am supporting republican delegates to actually speak out against Trump, either through the platform of the rules committee or on the floor of the convention, or otherwise we are in danger of having two antitrade parties, which will be a disaster for our economy long term, you know, because, you know, of the nature of the world we are living in today.

O`DONNELL: Let us listen to what Donald Trump said today about Hillary Clinton and TPP.


TRUMP: She would make a small token change, declare the TPP pack fixed and ram it through and you will suffer. That is why Hillary is now only saying she has problems with TPP in its current form. You know what that means. That means like they will make like a two world change and she will fix it and she will feel great.

But she said in its current form. She can rush to embrace it again and she will let the earliest opportunity. If the media does not believe me, I have a challenge for you, and Hillary. Ask Hillary if she is willing to withdraw from the TPP, her first day in office and unconditionally rule out its passage in any form.


O`DONNELL: David Corn, I think Hillary Clinton has little risk of being asked that question since the people who interviewed candidates almost never asked about policy. It is always about the latest poll and that sort of thing. But by the time she gets to one of the debates, she may well be asked that question.

DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: She may, and you know, the interesting thing here, as Donald Trump makes some good critiques of trade policy. But as Tim said, in a parade of lies, he goes on about rape and just today the news came out that he wants Mike Tyson, who is a convicted rapist speak at his convention in Cleveland.

And he goes on and on about how Obama does not do anything about trade and balances, even Obama administration imposed 522 percent tariff on Chinese steel dumping. He does not seem to understand that automation is as much a problem in terms of middle class or high paying manufacturing jobs as trade issues are. It is simplistic.

It is kind of like listening to Andrew Dice Clay, reading a column from the "Wall Street Journal." It is simplistic and as false a presentation as you have ever heard presidential candidate when it comes to discussing policy.

O`DONNELL: Yes. Donald Trump, along with many, do not realize that steel production of the United States has gone up, while the number of factories and the number of jobs has gone down. But I want to listen, also, to what Donald Trump said about NAFTA, because this is very much a part of the undoing of republican policy on trade. Let us listen so this.


TRUMP: I am going to tell our NAFTA partners that I intend to immediately renegotiate the terms of that agreement, to get a better deal by a lot, not just a little, by a lot of our workers. And if they do not agree to a renegotiation, which they might not because they are so use to having their own way; not with Trump, they will not have their own way. Then I will submit, under article 2205 of the Nafta agreement, that America intends to withdraw from the deal.


O`DONNELL: Tim Miller, I do not expect anyone to remember this, but both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in 2008 as candidates said that they would reopen and renegotiate NAFTA. I knew both of them were not telling the truth about that and they would not do it. And of course, they did not. They did not have a mention of it after the Obama administration took office.

But here you have a republican saying, "I am going to reopen it and if we do not reopen it and change it substantially, then I am going to withdraw. We are going to withdraw from NAFTA." This is not terribly different spiritually from withdrawing from the European Union, which began as a simple trade agreement and grew up into something much bigger.

MILLER: Yes, I think it is different because it grew up into something much bigger. It just would be an absolute disaster for our economy to have Donald Trump who is threatening tariffs and a trade war with china and pulling out of NAFTA.

Any conservatives who are watching your show right now should be disturbed by the fact that David liked some of the points that Trump was making, even though he does not trust him. You know, he does not trust him for good reason, right?

He is the guy that said that out sourcing was good three years ago. You know, obviously, all of his products are out sourced, his ties. He built his towers without U.S. Steel because it was cheaper. So, you know, Trump is the biggest hypocrite on this. But people should be disturbed that he would find a mandate for this, what he is saying and he will have to go through with it. And it would be just horrific for consumers and horrific for job creation in this country.

O`DONNELL: David Corn, quick last word here.

CORN: Listen, you look at Trump`s business career over the last 34 years and he is not the great negotiator he says he is. And all he has was talking points, no sophistication. Tim, I do not want trade wars, either. And I think this is one issue where you and I can agree that -- that Trump is not the man to deal with the economic issues that are challenges that our country faces.

O`DONNELL: OK. Tim and David, stick around, we are going to come back to you.

Coming up, the republicans and Donald Trump and the fight over delegates. Can those delegates be unbound. The plot to revolt against Donald Trump continues.



O`DONNELL: It is approaching 6:00 a.m. in Turkey. Here now is a live look at Instanbul`s airports. We are getting reports that flights are beginning to arrive there again after the deadly terror attacks. Reuters is also reporting that the FAA has now lifted an earlier ban on flights between the U.S. and Instanbul.

The countries Prime Minister has confirmed 36 people were killed by suicide bombers in the attack. Officials say 147 people were also injured. As of now, there has been no claim of responsibility. NBC`s Richard Engel reports authorities believe the bombings may have been carried out by ISIS Militants, dozens of which were reportedly sent to launch attacks during the month of Ramadan, which ends next Tuesday.

Shocking videos apparently showing the explosions at the airport have surfaced. This one is believed to be recording of a security camera at the airport. It has not been verified by NBC news. Another video, which we warn you -- we must warn you, is graphic and disturbing, appears to show one of the attackers being shot by police and then several seconds later explosives that the attacker was wearing then detonated, as you just saw.

The white house released a statement tonight, which reads in part. "We remain steadfast in our support for Turkey, our NATO ally and partner, along with all of our friends and allies around the world, as we continue to confront the threat of terrorism." We will be right back.


O`DONNELL: Do you know how much Donald Trump loves suing people and threatening to sue people. Well, it just might be contagious, because there is a republican delegate who is now suing so that he will not have to vote, for Donald Trump at the convention. The Dump Trump Movement goes to court. That is next.


O`DONNELL: Tonight, Arizona senator John McCain seemed to side with the republican convention delegates who are planning a revolt against Donald Trump. Senator McCain said, "I think it is up to every delegate to make up their own minds. I do not tell them what to do. I never have."

I do not remember him saying that when he was the nominee. Carroll Correll, a member of the Virginia delegation has filed a federal lawsuit so that he can have the right to not vote for Donald Trump.

Back with us, Tim Miller and David Corn. And so, Tim, the Dump Trump Movement is going to court. Give us the best assessment at this hour of how much life, how much possibility there is in dumping Trump at the convention.

MILLER: Look, from the legal standpoint, the facts are on their side. Now, this is going to end up being a traditional convention rules fight and obviously, the RNC and the Trump campaign are going to do everything they can. Pull every lever that they have to stop it, but the delegates -- they are not bound to support Donald Trump.

All of the delegates based on the rules of the last convention are unbound. If you saw the news today that the Trump convention is the movie "Idiocracy" come to life with Mike Tyson and Booby Knights [ph] and all of couple of pro-wrestling matches away from just this being a complete nightmare. And I think every piece of bad news gives these delegates more MO to win the PR war, because the facts are on their side. They are unbound.

O`DONNELL: David Corn, you know, whenever I see Mike Tyson on a show or invited to something. I always wonder, who could not they get. How far down the list did they have to go, where they were like, "All right, Tyson."

CORN: Trump, apparently, is going there right away. He is a great guy.

O`DONNELL: Yes. He is the top of his list.

CORN: You know, when I think of this convention, I kind of think of if you watch "Game of Thrones," Queen Cersei on the throne now, that is Donald Trump. And, I think if, you know, it is nice of these delegates think that they can have a free vote here, I do not know what is going to come of the legal case.

But, at the end of the day and, you know, this is what Tim is up against, the party`s voters want Donald Trump. He got the largest block of voting. He won the largest number of states.

And a lot of, you know, polls have shown that most republicans are OK with him, even if they are not wow for him. So, where are you going to turn? Where are you going to turn? No one strike the queen or the king --

O`DONNELL: Let me -- hold on. Let me just interject a little poll note here. Latest NBC News Wall Street Journal poll on this question, republican voters satisfied with Donald Trump was the nominee. It is only 45 percent, 45 percent.

CORN: Yes, it has been hard in the past. It may go up and down some more.

O`DONNELL: All right. Tim, go ahead.

MILLER: OK. McCain was much higher despite the fact that there were loud voices in the conservative media that they were kind of going down. Hey were up around high 60s, mid to low 70s. So that is a long distance from 48 to 70 percent.

And so I think Donald Trump is vulnerable to this, particularly if general election polls show him losing, if he has bad news cycles between now and Cleveland and depending on the -- excuse me, the success of delegate organization effort, which I think is making progress.

O`DONNELl: David, we have never discussed this before about a candidate in this situation going into a convention. I mean, is not that dangerous enough that this is even being discussed. It is a real subject out there.

CORN: Well, I think this is incredibly dangerous and damaging for the party itself. You have the leaders of the party, who cannot come out and say that they are four square for Trump. You have people on the republican side who are taking out ads against them to save their own hinds, who are running for office.

I think it is incredibly dangerous. But I just -- you know, but the thing is I do believe that he represents, if not the majority and near majority of republican voters, and that is the real dynamic here.


O`DONNELL: All right, we have some breaking news here. Hold it. Hold it. Stop. Stop. Stop. Donald Trump has been watching the show. He just tweeted literally two minutes ago. "Iron Mike Tyson was not asked to speak at the convention, though I am sure he would do a good job if he was. The media makes everything up." So Donald Trump will get the "Last Word" in this particular segment tonight. David Corn --

CORN: That is sad.

O`DONNELL: And David, this saves you because it means we ran out of time to get your answer to who is Hillary Clinton in "Game of Thrones?" Unless you have a quick answer, I am going to give you time to think about and come back on the show.

CORN: I will come back.

O`DONNELL : Yes and be very careful with that answer.

CORN: Yes.

O`DONNELL: Tim Miller and David Corn, thank you both for joining us. We really appreciate it. Chris Hayes is up next.