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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 4/12/2016

Guests: David Corn, Rory Cooper, Ken Vogel, Hugh Hewitt, April Ryan, Tavis Smiley

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: April 12, 2016 Guest: David Corn, Rory Cooper, Ken Vogel, Hugh Hewitt, April Ryan, Tavis Smiley

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.


MADDOW: Thank you very much.

O`DONNELL: We got some breaking news while you were addressing the nation about soup.



O`DONNELL: Marco Rubio tip-toeing ever closer to an endorsement, and really in effect, it is an endorsement.

MADDOW: That is a better story than the soup.


MADDOW: I`ll give you that --

O`DONNELL: And could be. He is actually number three in delegates. He has more delegates than John Kasich --

MADDOW: Than John Kasich --


MADDOW: Yes --

O`DONNELL: He can hand his delegates to someone else in the mix, this could get really interesting.

MADDOW: Also cream of mushroom is disgusting.


O`DONNELL: You know, Rachel, I sometimes dine after the show --

MADDOW: Yes --

O`DONNELL: And I sometimes have soup, not tonight, not tonight.


Thank you for that.

MADDOW: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thanks. Tavis Smiley is also going to join us tonight to talk about what Bill O`Reilly said last night on his show when talking to Donald Trump.

He said that African-Americans have trouble getting jobs, have a higher unemployment rate because -- this is O`Reilly saying this, they have tattoos on their foreheads.

And he invoked Tavis Smiley when he was talking about that. Tavis Smiley would get a chance to respond. And as I said to Rachel, we do have breaking news tonight.

Marco Rubio began the day being mentioned as a possible vice presidential candidate by Donald Trump.

And just minutes ago, he said he wants the Republican nominee to be the most reliable conservative in the race, which means he is not endorsing Donald Trump.



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We`ve had enough losses with Romney type, so the stiffs that can`t get elected --

RYAN: You should only choose from a person who is actually participated in the primary.

TRUMP: But I`m in first place by a lot. Millions and millions of votes.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC: These are voters who define themselves in opposition to the establishments.

TRUMP: These are my people.


These are my people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you ran with him?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Zero chance.



TRUMP: Our Republican system is absolutely rigged. It`s a phony deal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Political parties aren`t the government. They`re semi-private clubs.

If they wanted, they could use a sorting hat to pick their nominees.


Yes, slither in.


TRUMP: I think the vote is the thing that you count, right? The vote. The party is playing dirty.

JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: Whatever (INAUDIBLE) if Donald Trump doesn`t win, he`s going to sue all of us.



O`DONNELL: Remember President Seward, William Seward the great emancipator, the great Republican president who freed the slaves and won the civil war?

That`s the way history might be written today if the Republican Party was playing by Donald Trump`s rules in 1860.

When Abraham Lincoln came from behind and snatched the Republican nomination away from William Seward on the third ballot at the Republican convention.

New York Senator William Seward arrived at the Republican convention in Chicago with way more delegates than anyone else, including of course, the New York delegation which was the biggest delegation at the convention in those days.

And by Donald Trump`s rules, Republicans who arrive at the convention with the most delegates, even if it`s not a majority should get the nomination especially New Yorkers who arrive at the Republican convention with the most delegates.

On the first delegate ballot, Senator Seward got 173 and a distant second place finisher Abraham Lincoln got 102.

By the third ballot, it was a landslide for Lincoln, an outcome Donald Trump now calls a crime against democracy.


TRUMP: The RNC; the Republican National Committee, they should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen.

I can tell you that. They should be ashamed of themselves because it has nothing to do with democracy.


O`DONNELL: William Seward was a bit more matured than Donald Trump and he soon made his peace with Abraham Lincoln and became President Lincoln`s Secretary of State.

Donald Trump now sounds like he`s trying to make peace with some of his Republican opponents.

In an interview with columnist Christine Powers, he says he has been considering Scott Walker, Marco Rubio and John Kasich as potential vice presidential running mates.

Upon hearing that, John Kasich said there was zero chance of him running with Donald Trump.

Scott Walker laughed it off, saying, "I can`t even fathom that, it`s almost breath-taking that I was listening in the first place."

But Marco Rubio said this about that possibility last month.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: I`m not interested in being Donald Trump`s or anybody`s else`s vice president.

That`s not what I`m aiming at.


O`DONNELL: (INAUDIBLE). Tonight in his first interview since dropping out of the Republican presidential race, Marco Rubio stopped just short of endorsing Ted Cruz saying this --


RUBIO: I want the Republican nominee to be a conservative, and in my view at this moment, of the candidates that are still actively campaigning, the only one that fits that criteria is Ted Cruz.


O`DONNELL: They all know that the vice presidential nomination under Donald Trump ticket is, according to the polls a guaranteed footnote in American political history.

Who was Donald Trump`s vice presidential candidate when he lost all 50 states in the presidential election of 2016?

The "Stop Trump" Super PACs that have been funding television attack ads against Donald Trump are now funding efforts to stop Trump through the delegate selection process that Donald Trump still doesn`t seem to understand.

"POLITICO" reports anti-Trump billionaires are funding ground operations in an increasing number of states to try to ensure the selection of national convention delegates who oppose Trump.

The strategy is being executed by the anti-Trump Our Principles PAC which has a -- which has a stated goal of blocking the bombastic billionaire from clenching the GOP presidential nomination before the party`s convention in July.

The "Never Trump" PAC is going to release this ad tomorrow accusing Donald Trump of stealing funding meant for businesses hurt on 9/11.



TRUMP: I have a lot of property down there, but it was unfortunately affected by what happened to the World Trade Center.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump made his first visit to the 9/11 Memorial last weekend nearly five years after it opened.

Tonight, the Trump campaign released a radio ad that it says will be running in New York, but the campaign refuses to say -- refuses to say how much radio time they`ve actually purchased.


TRUMP: I am Donald Trump and I`m running for president and I love New York. Everybody knows that.

When it comes to New York values, other candidates do not like us. Our trade deals are a disaster.

I`m going to bring back jobs from Mexico, from China, from Japan, from all over. I propose the biggest tax cut of anybody running for president.

I`m going to save Medicare and Social Security, it`s going to be solid with me. Obamacare which is costing a fortune and doesn`t work will be repealed and replaced.

Our military will be bigger, better and stronger than ever before. We`ll knock out ISIS fast and our vets will be taken care of.

And I`ll protect our Second Amendment. I`ll create strong borders and we`re going to build a wall and yes, Mexico will pay for that wall.

Please, go out and vote on Tuesday, I`ll never let you down. We are going to make America great again.

I`m Donald Trump, candidate for president, and I approve this message.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Rory Cooper, managing director at Purple Strategies and a senior adviser for the "Never Trump" Super PAC.

Ken Vogel, chief investigative reporter for "POLITICO", and David Corn, Washington Bureau chief for "Mother Jones" and an Msnbc political analyst.

Gentlemen, I want to get to the breaking news that we have, which is Marco Rubio coming one word short of endorsing Ted Cruz.

Didn`t actually use the word endorse. David Corn, the way I look at presidential candidates like Marco Rubio is, there`re always presidential candidates.

And the calculation he has to make tonight is, assuming the Republican nominee is headed for defeat in November, which is the bet you would place right now, looking at the one-on-one match-ups with either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders.

Who should I Marco Rubio endorse now in order to preserve my status as a presidential candidate four years from now.

And it looks like Ted Cruz would be the way for him to go.

DAVID CORN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, MOTHER JONES: Well, Mo Udall, you remember him, the Congressman from Arizona who ran for president in the `70s said the only cure for presidential fever is embalming fluid.



CORN: So, all right, so, you want the other presidential bug, it never goes away and it`s pretty fair to judge anybody who`s run for president on the basis of what they`re doing in terms of their next run for the presidency.

What`s going to happen -- I don`t see a way around it. Maybe Ken and others and the panel will do.

That there`s going to be a civil war in the Republican Party. It may even be a three-way civil war, depending what happens at the convention.

Trump either wins and the social conservatives and the establishment people run away, Trump is kicked out, he goes to the pitch box.

If Cruz is denied the nomination, the social conservatives and Christian right, they go berserk.

So, this is going to be really ugly, I see no positive outcome. So, Marco Rubio and anybody else who wants to sort of look at what happens after the zombie apocalypse of the Republican convention.

It`s you know -- now, can start figuring out what -- who may be left as a base for the party, for anybody who wants to run again four years down the road.

O`DONNELL: And Rory Cooper, if you`re Marco Rubio and you`re looking at this nomination cycle, one way of looking at it is who do I not want to run against four years ago -- four years from now.

Who would I like to see get this nomination go down in flames and not be around four years from now. And it seems to me, that would be Ted Cruz.

RORY COOPER, MANAGING DIRECTOR, PURPLE STRATEGIES: No, I think it`s less calculating than that, Lawrence.

Look at -- if you look at Marco, you look at Speaker Ryan, some of his comments lately.

You look at Republican leaders, who have, you know, really been a part of the conservative movement.

Who have been pushing conservative principles, the bedrock of what Republican Party is for years.

They`re looking to save the values and the principles of the party right now. I don`t think that anyone is looking four years out, who they`re going to be running against.

I think they`re looking at, what does it mean to be a Republican? And David is right in a sense that, listen, it`s not going to be pretty in Cleveland.

There is a debate right now over the fundamental -- the fundamental idea of what it means to be a conservative, of what it means to be a Republican.

Donald Trump is going to lose that battle. And after that battle has taken place, then we will get into the general election.

I do believe that in this political time, we have short memories and it`s going to be hopefully the Republican nominee who is not Donald Trump`s job to take on Hillary Clinton who is, by the way, no strong frontrunner herself.

O`DONNELL: Ken Vogel --

KEN VOGEL, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, POLITICO: Including possibly Marco Rubio. I mean, if --


VOGEL: You do head to a contested convention, Marco Rubio as you mentioned in the intro has more delegates than John Kasich who is still in the race.

So, it`s certainly possible that he could be looking at something nearer term than the 2020 race.

Another thing that he could potentially be looking at, we`re talking about Rubio and his comments, his warm comments for Cruz, is a potential of running for governor in Florida, something that has been talked about as a possibility.

So, not to say that Marco Rubio is entirely calculating, I do agree that there is an element to his feelings about the best direction of the Republican Party.

Which is right now in crisis, I agree with David on that. But there are also near-term possibilities for Marco Rubio in this debate.

O`DONNELL: And you know, there is a way, you know, don`t have to be too Machiavellian about this, although I am, that everyone can be right here.

Where Rory, where it -- Ted Cruz actually is who Marco Rubio thinks he`s the best fit for the party, and who he finds more lines of agreement with than John Kasich.

That`s possible --

COOPER: Well, the --

O`DONNELL: As well as -- as well as there could be, you know, four years down the road, a good benefit for him to have Ted Cruz --

COOPER: Right --

O`DONNELL: Out of the way. Let`s take a quick look at the delegate-count as it stands tonight in Republican race.

Donald Trump at 756, Ted Cruz at 545, Marco Rubio at 172, John Kasich at 143.

And David Corn, if Marco Rubio can talk 172 delegates into walking over into the Ted Cruz camp, we got ourselves something really close to a tie tonight at the top of that delegate-count.

CORN: And that could be a big "if". You know, people tend to think of delegates as maybe bit coins who can be easily --


CORN: Traded amongst players. When actually, a lot of delegates don`t really care about the people they`re delegates for.

A lot of them are party regulars who want to get to the convention and they`ve been put on the ballot locally or sometimes even after the elections happen in order to get that free trip to Cleveland.

Good luck with that --

COOPER: David, I actually -- I actually don`t think that`s the case here though. If you look at the way --

CORN: But let me just finish up --

COOPER: If you look at --

CORN: But I want to say is, that I got -- in some cases, delegates will be loyal, care about the people they`re pledged to.

But in a lot of cases they may not be. So, it`s hard to say one-for-one that Rubio with a snap of his fingers can move 172 delegates from column A to column B.

COOPER: Right --

O`DONNELL: Rory, go ahead --

COOPER: But if -- well, thanks, Lawrence. If you look at what Trump needs to get right now, he needs to get all delegates about 162 to avoid going to the second ballot.

That is almost an insurmountable challenge for Donald Trump. So, what we`re talking about is what happens on ballot number two, not ballot number one.

That`s where those delegates come into play. And what you`re seeing on the Ted Cruz campaign has been a very ambitious strategy to make sure that the delegates who are unbound on ballot two and ballot three are going to be there in his camp.

What we`re doing at the "Never Trump" PAC and the groups like ours is to make sure that we are taking a very precise and targeted approach to make sure that Donald Trump makes it to that second ballot after he gets his high water mark.

That`s why people are going to to support those efforts, because that`s how we get Donald Trump out of the second ballot which he ultimately will lose.

And those delegates do care.

O`DONNELL: And Ken Vogel, you have some breakthrough reporting, and "POLITICO" is showing exactly how the "Stop Trump" movement is working at the delegate level.

You`ve got some details that we haven`t seen before.

VOGEL: Yes, that`s right, Lawrence. This is really sort of unprecedented for an outside money group, a Super PAC.

Of course, Super PACs have only been around since 2010, so, this is only in the second presidential cycle, and the first really compared to the presidential primary that we`ve seen since that.

But there`s actually a movement by this Our Principles PAC to play in the delegate selection process, to go into these states, try to figure out who these delegates are loyal to and steer attendees to vote for delegates who will support someone other than Trump.

O`DONNELL: And you`ve got -- you`ve got them at phone banks calling up these potential delegates all over the country, asking them how they feel about the different candidates.

Fascinating read Ken Vogel in "POLITICO", I want to take a look at it. Rory Cooper, Ken Vogel, David Corn, thank you all for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

VOGEL: Thank you --

COOPER: Thanks, Lawrence --

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Paul Ryan says no way, not running for president. You listen to the words he used.

You decide, does he really mean it? Radio host Hugh Hewitt will join us to react to the Paul Ryan breaking news and some of that Marco Rubio breaking news.

And last night Bill O`Reilly brought up Tavis Smiley when talking to Donald Trump. And when Bill O`Reilly offered his theory of why unemployment being all about tattoos on black men`s foreheads.

That`s why they can`t get jobs. Tavis Smiley will join us and his reaction to that.

And Hillary Clinton goes after Bernie Sanders. If you listen to Hillary Clinton, you would think that guns from Vermont are a major crime problem in New York, but the people fighting crime in New York don`t think so.


O`DONNELL: Conservative radio talk-show host Hugh Hewitt will join us next to discuss this breaking news about Marco Rubio kind of almost endorsing Ted Cruz.

And Paul Ryan`s statement today that he absolutely will not be a candidate for president at the Republican convention. That`s next.



RUBIO: I want the Republican nominee to be a conservative, and in my view at this moment of the candidates that are still actively campaigning, the only one that fits that criteria is Ted Cruz.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Hugh Hewitt; conservative radio talk show host with the "Salem Radio Network".

Hugh, that`s a bit of breaking news there. He said, I want the nominee to be a conservative.

He didn`t quite use that word endorse. How far away from endorse do you think Marco Rubio is tonight with Ted Cruz?

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST: Not very far, that is breaking news. The context of course, he made that announcement on Mark Levin TV --


HEWITT: A private paid for channel. Mark Levin is one of the only major conservative talkers to have actually endorse.

I haven`t endorsed, Rush hasn`t endorsed, I try and stay switched to him. But Mark Levin is a 100 percent with Ted Cruz.

So, for Senator Rubio to drive out to southern Virginia or south of the Beltway into Virginia, 40 minutes and sit down with Mark Levin on his new television show and say I want it to be the real conservative.

That`s an endorsement in all but name. And so, I think it is very significant.

You led with the right story tonight, because if you start to think about a Cruz-Rubio ticket, that puts Florida in play, it puts a lot of Latinos back in play who have not previously been targeted by a lot of Republican media or strategists.

And there`s a new book out by Ed Morrissey called "Going Red", which is about the centrality of the Spanish-speaking voting population.

That`s some pretty impressive ticket, so Marco Rubio made some news tonight. That didn`t do it.

O`DONNELL: Also making news today, Paul Ryan insisting that he will not under any circumstances at the convention be the guy who tries to emerge as the miracle savior of the Republicans.

He in effect echoed LBJ back in `68 when President Johnson said that he would not seek, would not accept the Democratic nomination for president.

Paul Ryan said "I do not want nor will accept the Republican nomination." That of course, Hugh, wasn`t good enough for the reporters there.

So, Luke Russert, of course, tried to really nail this down, and I think he did get some more clarity on it.

Let`s listen to the exchange with Luke Russert.


LUKE RUSSERT, NBC NEWS: A lot of people said, hey, this is exactly what he said about becoming speaker and then he ended up taking the job.

What do you say to people that are completely skeptical of you, and say you`re just going to get back into the system for you --

RYAN: Apples and oranges. Luke, those are apples and oranges. Being speaker of the house is a far cry from being president of the United States.

Specifically, because I was already in the house. I`m already a Congressman. So, I was asked by my colleagues to take a responsibility within Congress that I`ve already been serving in from the one that I had.

That is entirely different than getting the nomination for president of the United States by your party without even running for the job.

So, completely non (INAUDIBLE) comparison in my book.


O`DONNELL: Hugh, I thought the Paul Ryan tries-to-grab-the-nomination story has never made sense to me.

Because it seems very clear that if Paul Ryan were to do that, he would be doing it in a world of Republican disaster where he would know it would be impossible for him to win the White House through that route.

HEWITT: Well, that`s the 20th time according to the "Washington Post" that Paul Ryan has said he`s not running for president.

The 19th time was on my radio show last Monday. But I`d point out, Lawrence, nobody knows what`s going to happen in Cleveland.

Godzilla could come out of the lake(ph) area and step on the Rock and Roll hall of fame. We really -- the Browns could have a good draft.

Anything could happen this Summer in Cleveland. We can`t rule anything out. If in fact, we get gear-grinding, if we get deadlock, and you`ve got Donald Trump who is the frontrunner -- and that was a good radio ad that you played earlier, very powerful ad.

If he`s at 850 and Ted Cruz is at 875 and John Kasich is hanging around at 400-500.

And on your third or fourth ballot, you`ve got the wheels that are locked up and smoke is coming out of everybody`s ears, you start looking around for who can step into that.

And if not immediately pass former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, at least have a credible campaign in the Fall.

Everybody thinks Speaker Ryan. He`s trying to throw water on that fire. It`s not easily put out because a lot of people think the scenario I just laid out is in fact very plausible because Trump delegates are as loyal to Trump as Cruz delegates are to Cruz.

Once you get past ballot three and then you`re into -- you know, there`s some pretty famous conventions out there that go 20, 30, 50 ballots.

You mentioned Lincoln at the beginning, that was only three. That was kind of a small dust up --


HEWITT: In Wigwam, Chicago. If you go 20, it`s a meltdown and people start drinking heavily in Cleveland, that could go anywhere.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and -- but Hugh, the thing is, if there`s a Republican presidential nomination to want, it seems to me it`s want the one four years from now.

This one already is such a devalued hunk of political currency, it could be the end of Paul Ryan`s career, would be, if he took that nomination and lost in the general election.

HEWITT: No, I disagree here. Because I go back to what I view as the essential weakness of Secretary Clinton`s campaign.

The fact that Bernie Sanders could beat her in New York, the fact that she`s got an age gap with Sanders which is triple digits.

The fact that she has a -- she can`t win the FBI primary, Larry, she can`t put that one away.

And so she`s got an essentially weak candidacy and in the back of Speaker Ryan`s mind, is the fact that you don`t get offered this very much.

And so, he can say it 20 more times, he can say it 40 times, but if the wheels have come off in Cleveland, and you`ve got a train wreck and all the cards are up.

Anything could happen. You could get Romney nominated. You could get Nikki Haley nominated, you can get Scott Walker out of -- reanimated and running again.

Anything could happen.

O`DONNELL: All right, this is what it`s come to. I believe Paul Ryan meant what he said today and Hugh Hewitt is not so sure.

That`s where we are tonight. Hugh, thank you very much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

HEWITT: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Bill O`Reilly and that question he asked Donald Trump last night about black unemployment and tattoos on the forehead.

He used Tavis Smiley`s name and he was talking about that. Tavis will join us. And Hillary Clinton gets an important endorsement in the fight for New York.


O`DONNELL: The black unemployment rate is higher than the white unemployment rate. And, Bill O`Reilly last night seemed to think that, that is all about tattoos on the forehead. Tavis Smiley will join us to react to that.

And, Hillary Clinton seems to thinks if you just stop that massive flow of illegal guns from Vermont, the New York crime rate would drop. New York cops do not think so. But, first here is what it looked like today on the campaign trail.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Who is making you feel confident about the primary?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: That is a hard question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I am really undecided about who to vote for.



DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am in first place by a lot.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What is it about Trump`s message that you like?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He is a little feisty.



TRUMP: Come on!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But he has got the right idea.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I kind of like some of the things that Trump is saying, but he gets off on some things that are really weird too, you know.



TRUMP: The RNC, they should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen.



LARRY KING, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: The Donald is -- he is Donald.



JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Do you have a candidate that you like.


REID: Who is that.




TRUMP: Her whole life has been one big lie.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: She is better qualified to be president for this time than I was when I ran.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She has been aggressively going after Senator Sanders essentially trying to paint him as not ready.



SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Does anybody seriously believe that you can be an agent of change.



KASIE HUNT, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Pretty direct hit on Hillary Clinton.



SANDERS: If you are taking money from the most powerful special interests in this country.



HUNT: Clinton`s campaign is taking this pretty seriously.



GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R-OH) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As candidates wallowed in the mud.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ted Cruz says Trump is just a soar looser.



KASICH: Calling each other liars.



TRUMP: Lying Ted Cruz.



KASICH: Those who continuously push that type of behavior are not worthy of the office they are seeking.



TRUMP: That is right. Lying Ted.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Who is the Republican Party and how can they try to win in the fall?






UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He has said no repeatedly.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Does that mean we could see someone like Scott Walker, Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush back here.

RYAN: I am not going to foreclose anybody`s option.



O`DONNELL: Of the 50 states, Hawaii contributes the fewest guns that are used in crimes in other states obviously, because an ocean separates Hawaii from the rest of those states. For the rest of the 49 states, Vermont contributes the fewest guns used in crimes in other states.

Vermont just is not part of the problem of guns being used in crimes in other states, but someone on the Clinton campaign came up with an obscure and useless fact to try to blame gun crime in New York on Vermont.


HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He frequently says, "Well, you know, I represent Vermont. It is a small, rural state. We have no gun laws." Here is what I want you to know, most of the guns that are used in crimes and violence and killings in New York come from out of state. And these state that has the highest per capita number of those guns that end up committing crimes in New York come from Vermont.


O`DONNELL: In 2014, there were 7,686 guns used in crimes in New York. 4,585 of those guns were traced by the ATF. Fifty five came from Vermont, 55. And, there is no indication that any of those guns from Vermont were actually fired. The data does not include that kind of information.

The number one state, besides New York for firearms recovered in New York, is Virginia, the 395 guns found in 2014. The number one source state for guns nationwide is of course the biggest state, California, which was the source of 17,000 of 170,000 guns recovered and traced in 2014.

We will see what Hillary Clinton says when she gets to the California campaign about if we could just stop evil California from sending all those guns out into America. Kasie Hunt was with Bernie Sanders today on the campaign trail and joins us with the latest.

HUNT: Lawrence, good evening. A lot of sharp jabs traded back and forth on the democratic side over the course of the last 24 hours. Bernie Sanders` campaign stepping it up kind of trying to prove that he really was not going to take these hits from Hillary Clinton.

But now in a little bit more of a measured way. Not going so far as to talk about how she is not qualified, instead of kind of putting a sharper point on the things that he has been saying for the past couple of months. He did put out a press release saying that there is a credibility gap for Secretary Clinton.

And, that was enough to set Clinton`s personal aide, Nick Merrill, off on a little bit of a tweet storm saying that he thinks it is very clear that Bernie Sanders is making a character oriented attack. And, I think if you take the lens back a little bit and think about this more broadly it shows you how New York really is a crucible for Bernie Sanders.

It is not just a must win, it is a really a test of his campaign in a way that he has not been tested before. His campaign, both his staff and the candidate himself and you can see Sanders himself more fired up on the campaign trail today.

Basically, yelling that Donald Trump would never be president and saying that, that was because Sanders was polling ahead of him by double digits. Again, making this argument that Sanders is the best person to beat Donald Trump. But at the end of the day, there is some questions about whether he can really pull this out. Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Kasie Hunt, thanks.

Tonight, Hillary Clinton received a big endorsement from the New York Daily News. The paper`s editorial board called Hillary Clinton, "A Super Prepared Warrior Realist." Joining us now, April Ryan, the White House Correspondent And Washington Bureau Chief For the American Urban Radio Networks.

April, use of the word warrior in an endorsement for the democrat, who is running against kind of the peace candidate Bernie Sanders who still wants to make something of Hillary Clinton`s willingness to go to war in Iraq. If Hillary could have edited that editorial, I assume she would have like taken out the word warrior there.

APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: I do not know. You know, some people want a hawkish person and other people want a dove. And, I think that Hillary Clinton is accepting for the most part both sides.

I have been talking a lot to her camp recently. And, I even talked to her Sunday in Baltimore. She has been getting a lot of endorsements. She even got an endorsement, Sunday, from the Elijah Cummings.


RYAN: Congressman Elijah Cummings out of Maryland, who sat on that Benghazi hearing, got some major endorsement for her. Hillary Clinton is a woman who knows both sides. She knows war and she knows peace. She was a woman of peace. She was the secretary of state for Barack Obama.

And, I think she is embracing of both sides, even though it may not -- the visual and the sound may not be as palatable as some would like, but I think she wants people to know that if that 3:00 a.m. call comes, she can be a warrior.

O`DONNELL: And, Bernie Sanders, what do you see as the future of that campaign if he does not come out in New York with a win?

RYAN: Well, Bernie Sanders has momentum behind him nonetheless even if he does not. I mean, this is Hillary Clinton`s stomping ground. She got her offices in Brooklyn. She lives here in New York. I mean, New Yorkers love her.

And, yes, he is a native. He was born here, but also his wife had an advocacy job in Harlem, not far from Sylvia`s Restaurant. So, he is very familiar here, but this is her home turf. He has had momentum.

If he loses New York, it is a big loss, but he is going fight until the very end. And, I mean, we are talking about this contested republican convention. We could have something with the democratic convention in July as well. I think July is going to be a hot month for both Bernie.

O`DONNELL: June 7th, California will decide who that nominee is. We have got a hot tweet from -- breaking news tweet from Reince Priebus. It is actually what he said last night. He is saying it again.

He is saying, "The nomination process has been known for a year and beyond. It is the responsibility of the campaigns to understand it. Complaints now, give us all a break." He basically tweeted the same thing 24 hours ago. I guess he is going to tweet that every night that Donald Trump is on the campaign complaining.

RYAN: Yes. It is in response to Donald Trump who is crying foul. I mean, he has been Superman. We have not had any Kryptonite that we have been able to cripple him with. And, now he is crying foul and he has a major megaphone and people are hearing it.

Reince Priebus is the head of the Republican National Committee had to come out and speak and say, "Look, this is the process. You may cry foul, but this is what is happening. It has been in place." So, Donald Trump is crying foul after he has been throwing some money water at people as well.

O`DONNELL: I like that. So, it turns out the rules are Donald Trump`s kryptonite.

RYAN: Maybe so.


O`DONNELL: That is right. April Ryan, thank you very much for joining us.

RYAN: Glad to be here.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Jimmy Kimmel casts someone you would not expect, one of the candidates, as Captain America.



O`DONNELL: Do you ever think of Bernie Sanders as Captain America? I never have but Jimmy Kimmel does. Take a look.


JIMMY KIMMEL, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: There is some interesting parallels between this presidential election and the movie, "Captain America Civil War." Both of them feature former friends who are now enemies.

They both feature powerful men and women, who are also cartoon characters. And, there is a lot of interest in both, so much so that Marvel decided to weave the campaign into a new movie trailer. And, it works very well. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: This summer an all American idealist faces off against a diabolical billionaire.


SANDERS: The American dream is the American nightmare.



TRUMP: The American dream is dead.



SANDERS: Big money buys the elections.



TRUMP: I am really rich. I am sure of that.



SANDERS: Our campaign does not have a Super PAC.



TRUMP: I am in for about $35 million right now.



SANDERS: Can I finish, please.



TRUMP: Excuse me.



SANDERS: Excuse me, I am talking.

TRUMP: Bing, bing, bang, bang. Bing, bing, bing.




SANDERS: Can somebody attack me please?


O`DONNELL: I guess that was Hillary for a second there. Tavis Smiley joins us next.


O`DONNELL: You know how some Republicans always like to blame unemployment on the unemployed? Well, last night, Bill O`Reilly blamed black unemployment on tattoos on the forehead. That is next.



O`DONNELL: And, now for tonight`s "Last Word." Last week on Bill O`Reilly`s show, Tavis Smiley called Donald Trump, quote, "A racial arsonist setting fire everywhere he goes." Bill O`Reilly then tried to defend his longtime friend, Donald Trump.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX HOST OF "THE O`REILLY FACTOR" PROGRAM: All I can tell you is I have known the man a long time and I have never seen him cast aspersions at any group at all.

TAVIS SMILEY, PBS HOST: You might not have seen him, but the rest of the country has.

O`REILLY: I have been around him much more.

SMILEY: But here is your problem. We are watching one Donald Trump on the news every day. We watch him live on network television every day and everybody who knows Donald Trump keeps saying to me and to all your viewers that, that is not the Donald I know. Which Donald --

O`REILLY: Wait, wait. I do not know --

SMILEY: Who is the real Donald? Will the real Donald stand up?


O`DONNELL: The real Donald appeared on Bill O`Reilly show last night and this happened.


O`REILLY: Now, the minorities. Let us talk about the minorities.


O`DONNELL: I guess you know by know that any discussion between two old white guys that begins with, "Now, the minorities. Let us talk about the minorities" is not going to go well.


O`REILLY: Now, the minorities. Let us talk about the minorities. I defended you against Tavis Smiley last week and I did it because I know you better than Tavis Smiley knows you. I do not even know if you know him at all.

TRUMP: He does not know me at all.

O`REILLY: All right. OK.

TRUMP: I have never met him.

O`REILLY: Smiley brought in the fact that you were this racial arsonist. That is what he used. And, I said, "Look, I have known the guy for 30 years and I have never seen any of that."


O`DONNELL: Bill O`Reilly then asked Donald Trump what his message to African-American voters is. Donald Trump said his messages, "I am going to bring back jobs." In another words, the same message you have heard a thousand times.

He is going to bring back jobs from China, from Mexico, of course Apple to make their computers in the United States. Bill O`Reilly did not think that would be enough.


O`REILLY: But what about the grievance industry run by your friend Al Sharpton where, you know, not only do you have to bring prosperity to all Americans, not just blacks, but we owe them. We owe the African-Americans because of the historical atrocities that they have had to live through, their families, their ancestors. How are you going to deal with that?


O`DONNELL: And, then, you know, Donald Trump said it is all about jobs, it is all about jobs. And after that, Bill O`Reilly said the thing that everyone has been talking about today.


O`REILLY: How are you going to get jobs for them? Many of them are ill- educated and have tattoos on their foreheads and then, you know, how are you going to -- and I hate to generalized about it, but it is true. If you look at all the educational statistics, how are you going to get jobs of people who are not qualified for jobs.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump`s tattoos job message and Bill O`Reilly`s tattoos on their foreheads became the most vivid imagery that Fox viewers were given about why the black unemployment rate is higher than the white unemployment rate.

Joining us now is Tavis Smiley, host of "Tavis Smiley on PBS. He is also the author of the new book, "50 For Your Future: Lessons From Down The Road." Tavis, thank you very much for joining us tonight. As soon as I saw that last night, I thought I have got to give Tavis the "Last Word" tonight. Your reaction, just go ahead to what you have seen, anything you want to react to that.

TAVIS SMILEY, PBS HOST OF "TAVIS SMILEY": I stand by what I said earlier that Donald Trump is a racial arsonist and even more sadly Bill O`Reilly is a race baiter. This is a quintessential example of the mainstream media. Certainly, Fox News coddling Donald Trump with these kinds of racist remarks.

And, it is just sad to listen -- you almost feel sorry for them when you see that kind of white supremacist language on display. I just pushed them higher on my prayer list, because it is just sickening and sad to see they do not have the respect. They do not revel in the humanity and the dignity of our fellow citizens and particularly African-Americans.

I have never seen a party launched that is imploding and self-sabotaging the way they are. It is Shakespearian. It is Orwellian and it certainly anti-American. And, to watch them talk about poverty as if poverty is somehow color coded, and not an American catastrophe.

Poverty is now threatening our very democracy. It is now a matter of national security and they keep talking about it as if it is a black problem or a brown problem rather than an American problem. And, that is why Donald Trump is not gaining traction with people of color and Bernie Sanders message is getting through.

O`DONNELL: Tavis, the black unemployment rate as we know is always higher than the white unemployment rate and you know there is plenty of people who have done a lot of work trying to explain it. There is a lot of explanation for it. Tattoos on the forehead do not explain 1 percent of the black unemployment rate. Bill O`Reilly, that is all the explanation he needs.

SMILEY: I have said for so many years, I believe this is every fiber of my being, that every race ought to be judged by the best they have been able to produce and not by the worst. Are there some gang members who have tattoos on their head of all races? Absolutely.

These white supremacists who have tattoos on their forehead, they do not factor into Bill O`Reilly`s equation. And, furthermore, if I would take as I said to Bill last week, if I would to take the example of an unrepentant Dylan Roof, who goes into a South Carolina Church and murders a significant number of African-American and use that as the example for all white males in this country he would not appreciate that.

But, yet you can choose a few brothers with tattoos on their foreheads, and that becomes the mantra, that becomes the quintessential example of what all black life is about. It is sick when you see this and they do not understand why when you see a movement like Black Lives Matter come to the for, because the respect and dignity and the humanity of black life just does not exist.

O`DONNELL: And, Tavis, you know, as we know there has been some recent studies coming out saying that if there is any indication on a resume that can be read by the reader that this person might be black, that resume will not get a call back and the resume that reads white either through name or address, whatever it is, will get the call back.

So, O`Reilly ends his question about, you know, tattoos on the forehead by saying how are you going to get jobs to people who are not qualified for jobs. The people we see now in black unemployment is how do you get jobs for people who are qualified for jobs.

SMILEY: That is exactly right. And, again, that is not just a black problem, it is an American problem. There is so many people who have done the right thing, played by the rules and through no fault of their own, because of corporate greeds, shipping more jobs abroad, making more money at home. All of us have been hit hard in this job market.

But, at the end of the day, if you cannot respect again -- I repeat for the third time, the humanity and dignity of black life. And, furthermore, Lawrence, if you are not going to even campaign to that community, if you are not going to make an overture to that community, your answer is jobs, jobs, jobs to everybody, well, I think jobs with minimum wages gets thin.

But, at the end of the day, if you are not going to make them a priority, if you do not say that black folks and the brown folks, that your votes matter and here is an agenda that is in your best interests as opposed to an agenda that is antithetical to your best interests, then how do you ever get those votes.

O`DONNELL: Yes. I mean, and the point that you were trying to make to O` Reilly last week, when you were on, is why should republicans -- why do they in effect run segregated campaigns --

SMILEY: That is right.

O`DONNELL: Segregated in terms of who they are trying to appeal to, which voters they are trying to get?

SMILEY: It is abundantly clear who they are trying to appeal to. And, I have said many times and I believe this. This 50 Things book is about how you can a better person. How you can live a better and more authentic life. But this campaign, Lawrence, as you know, is fundamentally about what kind of country we are going to be.

Who are we really? We have grown up. We have grown older, but we have not grown up. We have grown old but we have not grown wiser. Who are we as a people. What kind of nation are we really going to be? That is fundamentally what is at stake in this campaign.

O`DONNELL: Tavis Smiley gets tonight`s "Last Word." Thank you, Tavis.

SMILEY: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.