Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: April 7, 2016 Guest: Jeffrey Goldberg, Jacob Soboroff, Ben Ginsberg, Susan Del Percio, Maria Teresa Kumar, Eugene Robinson, Frank Rich
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: This is usually the time when I`d say, hey, we`ve got tons more to get to tonight, but turns out though, you can tell time.
So, we`ll see you again tomorrow night, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: At this hour last night, the Democratic campaign for president looked like it was about to explode, but the candidates seemed to take a step back from the brink today.
And Donald Trump is running scared, which is why he decided to stop running around the country and stay in New York to defend his home turf.
And we have video tonight showing that Donald Trump`s problem with women disappears if the woman is actually a man dressed as a woman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS & FOUNDER, TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: Well, I`m on a very friendly territory, it`s New York.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love New York.
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Everybody now knows we`re going to a convention.
TRUMP: I am going to have great relationships with everybody when it`s time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sleeping?
REINCE PRIEBUS, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, I haven`t started pouring baileys in my cereal yet, but --
(CROSSTALK)
I really am.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: If you want to question my qualifications, maybe the American people might wonder about your qualifications.
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it`s kind of a silly thing to say.
SANDERS: This campaign will fight back.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: By far, the best qualified person to be president for several reasons.
(CHEERS)
For several reasons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long has it been since you rode the subway, madam secretary?
CLINTON: You know, a year, a year and a half, something like that. I love it because it`s so convenient. It is just the best way to get around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has a problem with women, but he doesn`t have a problem with men dressed as women if the man is also the mayor of New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know, you`re really beautiful. And a woman that looks like that has to have her own special scent.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: Oh, thank you. Maybe, you could tell me what you think of this scent.
TRUMP: I like that.
GIULIANI: This may be the best of all -- oh, you dirty boy, you fool, oh, Donald, I thought you were a gentleman.
TRUMP: You can`t say I didn`t try.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That was Rudy Giuliani in his last year as mayor when Donald Trump found him so attractive.
Giuliani has been saying nice things about Donald Trump during the campaign and he spent last new year`s eve at Trump`s Florida home and happily collected campaign contributions for Donald Trump.
So, it came as a surprise last night, a big one, when "POLITICO" reported that Rudy Giuliani was going to meet with Ted Cruz to discuss the New York primary.
This morning, Ted Cruz spokesman Jason Miller said, we`ve been working to line up a meeting, but there`s nothing scheduled for today.
Such a meeting would be a gross violation of Donald Trump`s understanding of politics. Donald Trump believes that when he gives a politician money, he owns that politician.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: You said recently, "when you give they do whatever the hell you want them to do."
TRUMP: You better believe it.
BAIER: So what specifically --
TRUMP: That`s true --
BAIER: Did they do?
TRUMP: If I ask them -- if I need them -- you know, most of the people on this stage I have given to, just so you understand, a lot of money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: It didn`t take Donald Trump long this morning to get the Rudy Giuliani-Ted Cruz meeting canceled forever.
A couple of hours after the Cruz campaign said they were working on scheduling that meeting, Rudy Giuliani told the "New York Post", "I support Trump. I`m going to vote for Trump."
He said Cruz`s dumping on New York values to score political points rankled him. Here is the way Ted Cruz is explaining to New Yorkers now what he means about New York values.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Let`s be clear. The people of New York know exactly what those values are.
They`re the values of liberal Democratic politicians like Andrew Cuomo, like Anthony Weiner, like Eliot Spitzer, like Charlie Rangel.
All of whom Donald Trump has supported, given tens of thousands of dollars throughout the years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: John Kasich who is polling ahead of Ted Cruz in second place behind Donald Trump in New York made New York values the theme of his first TV ad in New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Iowa, Ted Cruz sneered at our New York values.
CRUZ: You know, I think most people know exactly what New York values are, and I`ve got to say they`re not our values and they`re not New Hampshire values.
Everyone knows what New York values are.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ted Cruz divides to get a vote. John Kasich unites to get things done.
Kasich delivered on his word and turned his state around with grit and determination, something New Yorkers should appreciate -- John Kasich for president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The Trump campaign suddenly canceled a trip to Colorado today and California tomorrow.
Joining us now, Eugene Robinson; Pulitzer Prize-winning opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and an Msnbc political analyst.
Maria Teresa Kumar; president and CEO of Voto Latino and an Msnbc contributor. And Susan Del Percio; a Republican strategist who served in the administration of Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
Susan, how disappointed are you that Giuliani went on the Trump train?
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it`s not surprising. Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani have had a relationship for a long time.
And I will say this New York values thing, really does matter because that`s also a big part of Rudy Giuliani`s brand, is New York.
So, it will be -- it will definitely play especially in some of the districts that perhaps Ted Cruz was thinking he could get in like -- within Manhattan and then the Bronx.
O`DONNELL: But John Kasich is sitting there as a Rudy Giuliani-style Republican.
DEL PERCIO: He came out, the ad that he did today, the tour that he did in the Bronx was fantastic.
He said I love New York -- that`s the first rule. If you want to do something here, you`ve got to show that you -- you may not be a New Yorker, but you love New York.
And that`s exactly what he did. And again, he faces the same problem as Ted Cruz. How am I going to pick off a couple of delegates or at least stop Trump from getting to 50.
With this message, he made a very good impression on New Yorkers, unlike Ted Cruz.
O`DONNELL: And Maria Teresa, when you look at that poll with John Kasich in second place at 25 percent, if you imagine this New York race without him, Donald Trump might be up over 60 percent, 65 percent.
He might really be running away with it.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR, PRESIDENT, VOTO LATINO: That`s right. And there`s a lot of conversations that Ted Cruz is asking Kasich to jump out.
And this may be actually a saving grace for him because New York values may not actually be aligned with Ted Cruz at all, especially because he is so conservative.
So, if Kasich wasn`t in the race, it would actually fortify the lead for Trump. So, in some ways, he`s actually helping the Republican establishment.
Ensuring that there`s a firewall between the 1,237 that he -- delegates that Trump needs and the Republican Party brokered convention that`s coming up.
O`DONNELL: Gene Robinson, for strong frontrunners, when the presidential - -
EUGENE ROBINSON, COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON POST: Yes --
O`DONNELL: Primaries come to their state, they get to leave town. They get to play down the road.
They get to play in Colorado. They get to play in California when they know they`ve got their own state locked up.
Donald Trump is looking at that 52 percent and obviously is not confident in it.
ROBINSON: Right, well, he`s coming off a loss in Wisconsin. He`s way ahead in the polls, but he really -- I mean, he really has to win New York, right?
And if Trump were somehow to lose his home state, the state that is identified with his whole persona, which I don`t think will happen.
And I don`t think he`ll lose it. But if he were to lose it, it would just be catastrophic for his campaign.
So, he`s got to assure, and he`s got to -- you know, and this is what`s in front of him. He`s got to go after it.
I think his saving grace is, I don`t think New York is ever going to be in a Ted Cruz state of mind. I just don`t think so.
O`DONNELL: No, but they are. You know, there`s John Kasich and John Kasich is on TV. John Kasich did well in New Hampshire.
And then we have this new "Associated Press" poll today, and this is a national poll on Donald Trump favorability.
He has a 69 percent unfavorable, a 26 percent favorable. And Susan, it just seems inconceivable that the Republicans would send that guy into a general election.
DEL PERCIO: I couldn`t agree with you more, especially when you start looking at what the convention is about.
We keep talking about this 1,237 number as if --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEL PERCIO: It`s just some arbitrary number, it`s 50 plus one.
KUMAR: Right --
DEL PERCIO: But what they`re basically saying is, if you can`t win more than half of the Republicans, how could you possibly think you could win the county --
O`DONNELL: Right --
DEL PERCIO: And that`s what it`s really about, and that`s --
O`DONNELL: Right --
DEL PERCIO: A narrative that I think you`re going to hear more about.
Donald Trump cannot win 50 percent of Republicans, well then, he probably shouldn`t be the party`s nominee, either should anybody else who can`t get 50 percent of the Republicans.
O`DONNELL: So, where do they go from that? When they`re looking at -- and let me just put up one more from this "Associated Press", would you vote for Donald Trump? Definitely no.
Definitely no, won`t vote for Donald Trump. They know it right now tonight. Sixty three percent of voters will not vote for him, would consider him 19, definitely yes, 16.
And Gene, you have to wonder, I mean when you`re heading to a convention, they`re --
ROBINSON: Yes --
O`DONNELL: Going to be -- those delegates are going to be staring at those numbers. Sixty three percent definitely won`t vote for him.
And let`s say he doesn`t have the nomination locked in. Why would any more delegates go in his direction? The polls are going to be better --
ROBINSON: Well --
O`DONNELL: For every other Republican that they can think about.
ROBINSON: Well, but just -- so tell that to the Trump people. Tell that - -
O`DONNELL: Yes --
ROBINSON: To the Trump delegates, there`s going to be a whole lot of Trump delegates there.
He`s going to have more than anybody else probably. He may be close to 1,237 if he hasn`t already achieved it.
And then what? I mean then, does the party make an argument that, sure, you know, well, Donald Trump couldn`t get half the Republican delegates.
So, we`re going to give it to somebody who did less well than Donald Trump and couldn`t get a third or couldn`t get a fourth of the Republican delegates.
I mean, it`s -- I think that`s a heavy lift for the delegates, even as they`re staring down the barrel of a general election.
That could be just historically bad for them.
O`DONNELL: But Maria Teresa, it`s a less heavy lift every time Donald Trump says something alienating, you know, and something scary to people.
And he`s had a bad couple of weeks on that front.
DEL PERCIO: Well, and I think it`s one of the reasons why he`s grinding less one-on-ones. I mean, what he basically surfaced was his position of how he felt about women.
And it`s not just women that got turned off by that statement. But you have fathers and folks that actually like women and their partners, saying, not this guy.
And the more that he`s out there and feels that he has basically a free pass is when he starts to basically really disclosing how he fundamentally feels.
And that`s one of the reasons why he`s starting to surround himself by a different type of adviser, that is much more politically in tuned to what he needs to say in order to possibly not lose for example, California, and so on, and so forth.
So, I think that he`s trying to be -- he`s becoming much -- he`s trying, perhaps a little too late, trying to be more polished when it comes to the political discourse.
But it`s because he really stuck his foot in his mouth.
O`DONNELL: Well, you know, if not Trump, some people continue to say, Paul Ryan, speaker of the house.
Susan, you worked on an effort to -- how would you describe it? --
DEL PERCIO: Well, it was -- it was an online petition effort to try and get a million people to say, yes, we would support Paul Ryan, should he decide or --
O`DONNELL: And he asked you to shut at that?
DEL PERCIO: Yes --
O`DONNELL: And then -- and then today, Paul Ryan, who asked you to shut that down basically released a commercial for himself. Let`s look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: What really bothers me the most in politics these days is this notion of identity politics.
That we`re going to win an election by dividing people, rather than inspiring people on our common humanity and our common ideals and our common culture on the things that should unify us.
We all want to be prospers, we all want to be healthy, we want everybody to succeed. We want people to reach their potential in their lives.
Now liberals and conservatives are going to disagree with one another on that, no problem.
That`s what this is all about. So, let`s have a battle of ideas. Let`s have a contest of whose ideas are better and why our ideas are better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That`s from a speech that he made a couple of weeks ago that we covered the night he did it.
What is he doing? He knows that everybody thinks -- or everybody. There`s a lot of talk out there, saying they might try to go to him for the nomination.
You don`t put that out if -- and now in this climate if you`re not trying to fan that talk.
DEL PERCIO: Well, unless you`re also trying to be the grown up in the room within the Republican Party, which it desperately needs.
He`s also -- has to start -- he now potentially may worry about losing seats in the house -- Republican seats.
He`s got a lot of work to continue to do. This is saying, I`m the grown up in the room.
(CROSSTALK)
And he said it, he didn`t --
(CROSSTALK)
DEL PERCIO: You know what? --
O`DONNELL: Couple of weeks ago --
DEL PERCIO: But you know what? I have to --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Why does it look like a commercial for a campaign? --
DEL PERCIO: It`s a very nice video, I --
KUMAR: Note the lines --
DEL PERCIO: Sometimes they do that.
O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Maria --
KUMAR: In other words, I actually -- I mean, if you listen to what he`s saying, it sounds very much about Barack Obama saying that we are all Americans at the end of the day.
It sounds very presidential, and it just reminds me so much of when he said, oh, no, I don`t want to be speaker --
ROBINSON: Exactly --
KUMAR: And all of a sudden he became speaker. So, I think he`s still pretty stirring the water and saying, look, if we do need an alternative and nobody`s behind the three current frontrunners in the Republican -- in the current Republican scenarios, no one is really behind Donald Trump, Cruz or Kasich.
So, he`s like, you know what? If we`re going to broker it, it could just be me.
O`DONNELL: Eugene Robinson, Maria Teresa Kumar and Susan Del Percio, thank you all for joining me tonight, really appreciate it.
KUMAR: Thanks, Lawrence --
DEL PERCIO: Thank you --
O`DONNELL: Coming up, Jeffrey Goldberg is here with his extraordinary look inside President Obama`s foreign policy decision-making as told to him directly by President Obama.
And Frank Rich is here to discuss the latest in the campaign and how Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton today stepped back at least, temporarily from the brink.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Professor Larry Sabato and the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia are now predicting that both Donald Trump and Ted Cruz could hurt Republican candidates in other races if either of them wins the Republican presidential nomination.
Professor Sabato says the following Republican senators are already a bit less likely to win their Senate races.
Pat Toomey in Pennsylvania or Rob Portman in Ohio, (INAUDIBLE) of Missouri, Richard Byrd, North Carolina and Chuck Grassley in Iowa.
Also in North Carolina, Republican Governor Pat McCrory`s race is now called a toss-up after the reaction to that new anti-LGBT law there.
Up next, Hillary Clinton responds this morning to Bernie Sanders saying that she is not qualified to be president.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Bernie Sanders threw a big shock into the Democratic campaign for president last night when he said the thing you are never supposed to say about your opponent in a campaign for the party`s nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: She thinks that I am "not qualified" to be president.
(BOOING)
Let me -- let me just say in response to Secretary Clinton. I don`t believe that she is qualified if she is --
(CHEERS)
(APPLAUSE)
If she is through her Super PAC taking tens of millions of dollars in special interest funds.
I don`t think that you are qualified if you get $15 million from Wall Street through your Super PAC.
I don`t think you are qualified if you have voted for the disastrous war in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: So, the reason candidates in the same party never say that the other one is not qualified unless they`re running against Donald Trump, is that it is deeply alienating to all those Clinton supporters in this case who Bernie Sanders is going to need in a general election if he is the Democratic nominee.
And it makes it almost verbally impossible for Bernie Sanders to endorse Hillary Clinton if she is the Democratic nominee.
How can Bernie Sanders endorse someone who he has said is not qualified to be president.
So, as tempting as it is to say it, candidates resist it as Hillary Clinton did when she was invited to say Bernie Sanders is not qualified.
She didn`t say Bernie Sanders is qualified, but she did not say he is not qualified. That`s the way the game is usually played.
It would not be unfair to infer that she thinks that Bernie Sanders is not qualified, but she was very careful not to say it.
You know the way a Secretary of State would be very careful in her choice of words.
The Democratic campaign could have gone off the rails this morning in New York if Hillary Clinton said Bernie Sanders is not qualified to be president.
Or if she went in to (INAUDIBLE) and demanded an apology and turned the issue of the New York campaign into will Bernie apologize?
She could have done that, instead she chose to laugh it off.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bernie Sanders seems to think you`re not qualified.
CLINTON: Well, it`s kind of a silly thing to say, but I`m going to trust - - yes, voters of New York who know me and have voted for me three times, twice for Senate, once in the presidential primary.
Look, I didn`t -- I don`t know why he`s saying that, but I will take Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump or Ted Cruz any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And Bernie Sanders took a step back this morning, too, turning the question of Hillary Clinton`s qualification for the presidency back into a maybe, instead of a definitive statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: But when you have headlines from "The Washington Post", "Clinton questions whether Sanders is qualified to be president".
My response is, well, you know, if you want to question my qualifications, let me suggest this that maybe the American people might wonder about your qualifications, madam secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Msnbc`s Kasie Hunt who has been covering the Sanders campaign.
Kasie, they diffused the bomb today.
KASIE HUNT, MSNBC NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I don`t quite know --
O`DONNELL: OK --
HUNT: About that. Lawrence, I think -- I think -- look, I think you also heard Bernie Sanders lay down the law a little bit, you know, when he kept going in that press conference.
He went on to say, you know, I will not be dismissed just because I`m from a small state doesn`t mean that I don`t know what it`s like to play political hardball.
Doesn`t mean I can`t figure this out. And if you`re going to do this to me, I`ll learn how to do it right back. I think it was a little bit of a warning shot in a way.
And he was reacting to that "Washington Post" headline as well as to some reporting that the Clinton campaign was going to try and "disqualify" him in the course of running in this New York primary.
And I think what you saw was really Sanders` own personal frustration. The quickest way to get Bernie Sanders to essentially shut down a line of argument or a conversation or anything along those lines is to suggest that he doesn`t have a right to be there or that he is not -- you know, shouldn`t be part of this presidential conversation.
And I think that`s what you saw. I mean, people around him have been urging him to go further against Hillary Clinton for months now.
And he never has, he`s resisted it. He`s incrementally ratcheted it up the rhetoric.
But this is the first we`ve seen of this, and that`s really the candidate himself essentially deciding to put his foot down and say, you know what? I`m going to -- I`m going to try to put a stop to this.
O`DONNELL: Kasie, what would going further be?
HUNT: Well, you know, I think that you have seen over the years quite a few very personal attacks leveled at the Clintons.
I mean, you`ve seen Donald Trump do some of it, that is not part of the Democratic nomination fight conversation right now.
So, and I don`t see any world in which Bernie Sanders goes there. I mean, even this version of it is essentially his stump speech with this particularly criticism, you know, added on to it.
Those are the things he always says in every stump speech.
O`DONNELL: Kasie Hunt, thanks for joining us, really appreciate it.
HUNT: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Frank Rich; writer-at-large for "New York Magazine", and an executive producer of "Hbo`s" "Veep".
Frank, I want to show you how Hillary Clinton`s TV day is going to start tomorrow morning because it already happened in a pre-tape for "Today Show". Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Came right out and say he doesn`t think you`re qualified to be president.
CLINTON: Well, that will be up to the voters of New York and the other states that will be passing judgment in the weeks ahead.
I think it`s kind of a silly statement, but he`s free to say whatever he chooses --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he qualified to be president?
CLINTON: Well, here`s what I believe. I believe that voters will be looking at both of us, but I will take Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump or Ted Cruz any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: I thought she handled it brilliantly from the provocation right through to now.
FRANK RICH, WRITER-AT-LARGE, NEW YORK MAGAZINE & EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, VEEP: Well, she has her story now and she`s sticking to it --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
RICH: Since we have the sound bite, finally owned. I agree, laughing it off was the best way to go.
Also, the campaign is unfolding in New York, it`s kind of a New York thing to do to say -- or whatever and keep on moving.
And the whole thing was a manufactured event to begin with, because Bernie Sanders was wrong.
She never said that he was "unqualified". A "Washington Post" headline writer did, which is an entirely different --
O`DONNELL: Right --
RICH: Thing, so, it`s really about nothing. It`s for (INAUDIBLE) in that way and --
O`DONNELL: But -- and also she knows the way this equation works. She knows that if she gets the nomination, she needs Bernie Sanders supporters who aren`t feeling great about her right now, so she wants this thing to disappear.
RICH: Exactly, and you know, she was showing signs in the past week or so of being really exasperated with Sanders and his campaign.
She sort of had a moment of, you know, you know, stop lying about my record kind of moment a week or so ago.
But she`s gotten past it and she does need them because they`re a very energized and very large segment of the Democratic base.
And if they sit home and she doesn`t have the turnout, it`s a problem even perhaps running against a clown.
O`DONNELL: And she`s got a very rough general election coming if she is the nominee.
I mean in the history of the FBI and in the history of presidential campaigning, there is exactly one presidential candidate who`s been under investigation during the presidential campaign. Exactly one.
You would never know that if you listened to the Bernie Sanders campaign. You will know it if you listen to the Republican campaign against Hillary Clinton as the nominee.
RICH: Absolutely. And we also don`t know where that investigation is going.
And even assuming it`s relatively benign, it can -- whatever the FBI says or does can be framed by someone like Donald Trump or Ted Cruz in a way that`s very damning to people who don`t look at the fine print and don`t really get the legal lease of what`s going on.
So, it`s a big issue.
O`DONNELL: There`s no question in that --
RICH: So, she compared her anticipated version of running against Donald Trump to be -- to be similar to her experience almost running against Rudy Giuliani for Senate in 2000.
Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CLINTON: He would go into being a -- from being a tough decision maker into really being a bully. I think I said something like I`m just not going to respond to his tantrums.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right --
CLINTON: And I felt like that was the best way to deal with an opponent who would try to drag you on to his turf, and then --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right --
CLINTON: Use every advantage he had to, you know, really --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right --
CLINTON: Knock you down. There certainly are similarities if I`m the Democratic nominee --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what? I think that --
CLINTON: And Trump is the Republican nominee.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: So, she never actually ran against Giuliani. He dropped out for health reasons and if you think that Rudy Giuliani was as rough as Donald Trump is going to be if he`s the nominee, we`ve got -- we`ve got something -- we`ve got news for you.
RICH: Yes -- no, I mean, exactly. Also, Giuliani, if it had happened was so vulnerable on the kind of issues that Trump will -- that really below the belt issues that Trump will go after the --
O`DONNELL: Oh, yes --
RICH: Clintons on.
O`DONNELL: Yes --
RICH: And Trump -- everyone -- his marital life and sex life is an open book, however shabby or something that it may be.
And so, he`s sort of inoculated against that --
O`DONNELL: Yes, he has --
RICH: In a way that Rudy was not. And so, there`s certain superficial similarities, but Trump is something else all over again.
O`DONNELL: And so, what is your view of what will happen on the Republican nomination?
Do you think if Trump doesn`t have the number going into the nomination that they will get it -- they`ll get that nomination delivered to someone else?
RICH: I don`t understand how this works, because the base -- 70 percent of the base wants some version of Trump or Cruz. Whatever the percentage --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
RICH: Each of them are. So, how are you going to tell that 70 percent to not have the guys that they voted for who represent their views?
Are you really -- is the establishment really going to bring in a Paul Ryan? And what`s in it for Paul Ryan to have the whole base hate him?
O`DONNELL: Well, you know how? The establishment is actually going to be here later in the show.
Ben Ginsberg; the Republican lawyer who runs a lot of these conventions, he`s going to tell me how they`re going to do it.
RICH: He will, but he won`t --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
RICH: He won`t tell you how it`s going to go down --
O`DONNELL: Yes, I don`t --
RICH: If they do it --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
RICH: He can`t do it --
O`DONNELL: He won`t give me the name of the nominee, but he`ll tell me -- he`s going to tell me who it is.
Frank Rich, thank you very much --
RICH: Great to see you --
O`DONNELL: I really appreciate it. Coming up, Donald Trump versus President Obama on foreign policy.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Here is the way it looked today on the campaign trail in New York and Pennsylvania.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Now, let us have a serious conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The gloves are coming off because there is such a fierce fight right now in New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you want to question my qualifications, let me suggest this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to have to unify democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Maybe the American people might wonder about your qualifications, madam secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I do not know why he is saying that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Are you qualified to be president?
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): She did not actually ever say he was not qualified, although she did walk right up to the line.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): The fact that Sanders went where he went with this attack tells you a lot about where his head is.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (3): Of course, Hillary Clinton is qualified.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There is no plausibility to any argument that she is not qualified.
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SANDERS: I am not going to get beaten up. I am not going to lied about.
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TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The democratic field consists of a wild socialist with ideas that are dangerous for America and the world and Bernie Sanders.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ted Cruz and Donald Trump, they are still locked in a battle here in New York.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Donald Trump wants the ticket all here.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Is this Trump country where we are?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I would have to say yes.
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KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Governor, the results in Wisconsin were very tough for you not getting any delegates. Does that undercut your argument about going forward to the convention?
GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These were anti-Trump votes more than they were pro-Ted Cruz votes. Here in New York we are now running in second.
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SANDERS: Anybody really want to ask me a question of importance to the American working people.
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CLINTON: I will take Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump or Ted Cruz any time.
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SANDERS: This is an unusual election. Would you admit that?
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DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If it breaks up NATO, it breaks up NATO. Now, would not you rather in a circumstance have Japan have nuclear weapons when North Korea has nuclear weapons.
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TRUMP: Today, we have a radical Islamic terrorism threat, a term that our present does not want to mention.
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O`DONNELL: President Obama said this recently. "I believe that we have to avoid being simplistic. I think we have to build resilience and make sure that our political debates are grounded in reality. It is not that I do not appreciate the value of theatre and political communications.
It is that the habits we have, the media, politicians have gotten into and how we talk about these issues are so detached so often from what we need to be doing that for me to satisfy the cable news hype fest would lead to us making worse and worse decisions over time."
Joining me now is Jeffrey Goldberg, the National Correspondent for "The Atlantic." Jeffrey, as you know, that comes from your piece, this extraordinary piece you have written with extraordinary access to President Obama telling you things like that.
And, I just want quick note to viewers, if you read one foreign policy article in your life, let it be this one. Jeffrey, it is beautifully written. It reads like a book. But I want to get into some of these details here.
You cannot hold it in your hands and read it and not feel even more revulsion for some of what is being said especially in the republican campaign for president, Donald Trump about foreign policy. Also, Ted Cruz talk talking about carpet bombing. Talk about what the president was just talking about and I, quote, "About how simplistic these candidates are making all of this sounds."
JEFFREY GOLDBERG, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE ATLANTIC": Right. So, you know, it was kind of an odd experience for me because I was reporting this out as the campaign was reaching full throttle. And, so I will be having these conversations with the president, which are pretty -- as you can tell from that quote, pretty nuance conversations and reason the thought for conversations, you might disagree with the conclusions that he reaches after reasoning through these issues.
But it is a very -- it is a very mature conversation that I think he is trying to have with the country and then on -- then you have kind of a circus-like atmosphere where you are talking about destroying NATO and handing nuclear weapons out and building walls and building bigger walls.
You know, all this sort of -- and has no bearing on reality. I am not making a partisan point by the way. Because most republicans foreign policy analysts would say that the things that in particular Mr. Trump is saying, that these do not have any bearing on the complicated interplay between states that exists today. It does not make any sense.
O`DONNELL: Yes. And, when you read it, you also have this horrible feeling of how can this thoughtful eloquent in most passages analysis of where America is in the world, where it is going in the world, how can it possibly compete with these sound bites and what the president talks about the hyping of this kind of stuff that happens on cable news.
GOLDBERG: Right. Well, I mean, the shame of it is that this would be an interesting moment because, again, I want to make this point very clearly. The president reaches certain conclusions about the way the world is organized and about the America`s role in the world and you might disagree with those conclusions. That is fine, but you can see the process of how he has gotten there.
What would be interesting in this moment would be to have a similar debate, a similar kind of discourse on the republican side, so you can match these things up. But, again, you have one person doing it seriously and then sort of this caricature of a foreign policy national security debate. Who could torture the most number of people, you know -- Or things that are just not grounded in our reality.
O`DONNELL: And, you talked through with him one of the most controversial moments in his foreign policy in the second term, which was this motion of a red line in Syria that he pronounced at a certain point involving chemical weapons. Then Assad crossed that red line, although for the president he was getting some intelligence indicating we are not sure whether he crossed the red line.
GOLDBERG: They are pretty sure that he did cross the red line.
O`DONNELL: But, ultimately the president -- that line having been crossed came very close -- very, very close to ordering a military response to that and then went for that hour long walk on the White House grounds. I mean very dramatic description of this, where he changed his mind. Tell us about how that happened and how he worked his thinking through that.
GOLBERG: Right. I think by the time of that walk, which was on a Friday afternoon August 30, 2013, I think he had realized by then that he did not want to do this thing. He did not want to bomb Syria. He did not want to bomb these sites in Syria.
And, the reason -- and this is sort of the moment that I described -- I do not know if he would see it this way, I think he would, as king of a hinge moment in his presidency, where he decided that he was not going to do the thing that people expected him to do based on what he calls the Washington play book.
The set of steps that a president is supposed to take if he is provoked by another country, by a rogue state. And, what he basically said to himself was if I continue to go down this path, if I continue to go down this path of direct confrontation with the Assad regime, A. This is all I am going to be doing for the entire second term, and I do not want that.
I do not want to get consumed by the Middle East the way my predecessor was consumed by the Middle East. And, also I am not sure it is going to work. I mean, by that point, he had come to the conclusion that there is very limited -- that America has very limited ability to shape outcomes in the Middle East.
And, so, he saw himself at that moment as sort of saying to the world, "I am not stepping on the slippery slope." And, of course, this was extremely controversial and we will be debating this, you know, for years if not decades. But, that was the moment when he said, "You know what? I am not going down a path that -- I do not see a good outcome down this path."
O`DONNELL: And, the key elements of the decision was that if he took that action, it actually would not get rid of the chemical weapons. He ended up getting rid of the chemical weapons.
GOLDBERG: Right.
O`DONNELL: Right. He was quite lucky in that sense that Vladimir Putin who comes in within a week or two, they engineer something that people thought would be impossible, the removal of the chemical weapons from Syria. So, from the critics` perspective, and this is a fair criticism, the critics think of it, "You made a promise. You vowed to enforce a red line and you did not, so our credibility was hurt.
From his perspective, he got rid of chemical weapons from a country, from a dangerous country without going to war, which of course you could flip that and say George W. Bush went into Iraq, looking for WMD (ph) that were not there and had a war. So, Obama thinks that he comes out ahead.
O`DONNELL: Yes. And, Hillary Clinton sharply disagreed with him on this and wanted military action and I urge everyone to read this article and you can make your own decision in there about who was right, President Obama or Hillary Clinton. Jeffrey Goldberg, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.
GOLDBERG: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, the Trump campaign has been doing a terrible job of chasing delegates and you do have to chase them. Cruz campaign has been doing a great job. Ben Ginsberg will take us on a tour of the delegate rules at the republican convention, the first rule being there are no rules.
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PRES. BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: We cannot bring back the 29 men we lost. They are with the Lord now. Our task here on Earth is to save lives from being lost in another such tragedy.
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O`DONNELL: Six years ago, 29 coal miners in West Virginia were killed in a mine explosion. The CEO of the company that owned that mine was sentenced Wednesday for conspiring to wilfully violate federal mine safety standards. Don Blankenship, formerly of Massive Energy was sentenced to one year in prison and ordered to pay $250,000 in a fine.
Coming up, the capacity for intrigue at the republican convention is officially limitless.
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O`DONNELL: Donald Trump cancelled a rally in Colorado today where republicans were in the process of selecting delegates for the republican national convention. Ted Cruz`s campaign has a strong field operation in Colorado trying to get as many of those delegates as possible. MSNBC delegate hunter, Jacob Soboroff joins us from Colorado. Jacob, where are you and what is going on there?
JACOB SOBOROFF, MSNBC DELEGATE HUNTER: So, this is Arvada, Colorado, Lawrence. And, in extraordinary way, this is essentially the center of American politics. Tonight, albeit incredibly under the radar and that is because the Ted Cruz campaign is fighting tooth and nail for three unbound delegates coming out of this congressional district convention.
You know about this because of your conversations with Carly Heflin (ph) from North Dakota, the unbound delegate there. Ted Cruz is fighting for these to stop Trump from hitting the 1,237 delegates that will take to win the republican nomination on the first ballot.
I cannot tell you the last time that there was national attention on the congressional district convention in a church in Arvada, Colorado. But we are seeing it here tonight. They will be at the multidistrict conventions tomorrow at Colorado Springs. And, then when 6,000 get together in a hockey arena in Colorado Springs on Saturday.
Again, the reason this is so important and controversial is because unbound delegates are not bound to the will of any voters. In fact, there are no popular votes in the great state of Colorado. There used to be a beauty contest in this state. And, Rick Santorum won it essentially in the last presidential election, but they got rid of it.
What the party is doing here now is assigning delegates that will go to the national convention. Again, if Trump gets to 1,237 on that first ballot, he will not have to worry about that. But, the issue is here, the Cruz campaign is coming in. They are putting down slates of delegates for people to vote for. Here tonight, the Trump campaign is trying to do the same and even Kasich is here as well. Lawrence, back to you.
O`DONNELL: Jacob Soboroff from Colorado. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Up next, Ben Ginsburg will explain the republican rules and how they just might work against Donald Trump.
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O`DONNELL: One of Donald Trump`s long-time political advisors, Roger Stone is telling Trump supporters that republicans plan to steal the nomination from Donald Trump. Here is what he said earlier this week. "We are looking at a very narrow path in which the king makers go all out to cheat, to steal and to snatch this nomination from the candidate who is overwhelmingly selected by the voters.
I have urged Trump supporters, come to Cleveland, march on Cleveland. We are going to have protests, demonstrations. We will disclose the hotels and the room numbers of those delegates, who are directly involved in the steal." Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus responded last night.
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REINCE PRIEBUS, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It is totally over the line. And, we are going to have $50 million in security. We will make sure that every delegate is safe.
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O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Ben Ginsberg, Political Analyst for MSNBC and a partner at the law form Jones Day. He specializes in election law. And, Ben, what is your reaction to Roger Stone`s incitements for Trump supporters to come to Cleveland. March on Cleveland and attack those hotels that the republican delegates are in.
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BEN GINSBERG, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I have known Roger and I have seen his work for a number of years. It is in keeping with his past pattern and practices. But, really I think the Chairman Priebus is right and that threatening delegates is probably over the line. And, I am not sure why it is helpful to his candidate.
O`DONNELL: And, you see Donald Trump cancelling his trip to the Colorado, where they need delegates. They are staying In New York where they are worried apparently about how strongly they are going to show in New York. They seem like a campaign that has been unable to do both, unable to deal with the voters and campaign for voters the way Ted Cruz does and work the delegate side of this.
GINSBERG: Well, look, he has been very successful at winning voters and winning states. He does have more votes than any other candidate and I think they now realize with the naming of Paul Mannafort that this is a two-step process where delegate selection, so I think the people who will actually be in the seats in Cleveland is an important part. So, sometimes in a campaign if you need the planning time to be able to execute down the road, that is what you do.
PINSKY: And, Ben, this cannot be repeated enough. And, you have said it many times, there are no rules for the 2016 republican convention. Those rules will be written and adopted by that convention. That is their first order of business.
GINSBERG: Correct. As a matter of fundamental parliamentary law, a convention needs to pass rules for itself. The 2016 convention can say, "We want the 2012 rules and we are not going to change a word." But they do have to have an affirmative vote that, that is what they are going to do.
PINSKY: And, you mentioned something the other night about the way a delegate actually -- what they have to do through in actually approving that they are with a candidate to the point where every delegate has to actually sign something saying I am voting for Donald Trump or Ted Cruz or whoever it is on that first ballot.
GINSBERG: Well, what the first ballot is especially -- they are votes will be recorded by the secretary according to the results of the state. What we were referring to and what really is an important part of the process is how a candidate gets put in nomination.
In past conventions, they have had to actually sign a petition that says I want this person to be put in nomination. That is the majority of delegates in eight states rule from 2012. And, while a delegate may be bound to a candidate for the vote on the first ballot, they are not bound to sign that candidate`s nomination petition.
O`DONNELL: And, which creates an absolutely fascinating scenario because the signature is in effect the vote, but the rules simply as it is currently written simply says you must vote, says nothing about you must sign this.
GINSBERG: That is correct. The nominating petitions do not have to be signed by delegates, who are bound. What makes it more interesting is that as a just a practical matter. It is really tough to get delegates to sign those things before the convention starts, because they are spread out all over a state.
So, by tradition those nominating petitions get circulated the night before the convention starts. So, it is usually been a pro-forma process, the leading candidates gotten probably twice as many states has needed to sign them. This time it is going be a little bit more of a tension-inducing process for the rally political operatives.
O`DONNELL: There would be some great drama there. Ben Ginsberg gets tonight`s "Last Word." Thanks, Ben.
GINSBERG: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.
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