Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: March 10, 2016 Guest: Howard Dean, Maria Teresa Kumar, Bill Scher, Rakeem Jones, Ronnie Rouse, Jonathan Allen, Jonathan Alter, Gen. Michael Hayden
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Rachel, thank you very much --
MADDOW: Thank you, thanks --
O`DONNELL: President Obama told Republicans today exactly where their Donald Trump problem came from.
And the Trump campaign has to no one`s surprise turned violent for spectators and reporters.
The man you`ve been seeing on video who was punched at last night`s Trump rally will join us here.
Also General Michael Hayden who strongly disagrees with Donald Trump will also join us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have been blamed by Republicans for a lot of things.
But being blamed for their primaries and who they`re selecting for their party is novel.
(LAUGHTER)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Candidates motivated by bigotry and resentment. Candidates unable to govern.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Not going to happen, not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m here today to announce my endorsement of Ted Cruz.
CRUZ: Mike Lee, I am your father.
DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS & FOUNDER, TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: I think Islam hates us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was at a rally in Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago where Donald Trump was encouraging his supporters to go after protesters.
TRUMP: He`s walking out like a big high fives, smiling, laughing -- I`d like to punch him in the face. I`ll tell you.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC: A man charged today with assaulting a protester at last night`s Trump rally in North Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next time we see him, we might have to kill him.
OBAMA: What you`re seeing within the Republican Party is an environment where somebody like a Donald Trump can thrive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Today, President Obama who by now is used to getting blamed for everything said you can`t blame him for Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: What I`m not going to do is to validate some notion that the Republican crack up that`s been taking place is a consequence of actions that I`ve taken.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The President said Republicans should look at what they have been doing for years that paved the way for Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: There are thoughtful conservatives who are troubled by this. Who are troubled by the direction of their party.
I think it is very important for them to reflect on what it is about the politics they`ve engaged in that allows the circus we`ve been seeing to transpire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The President reminded Republicans that Donald Trump got his political start in their party five years ago, pushing a big lie that they did not object to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The tone of that politics which I certainly have not contributed to. I have not -- you know, I don`t think that I was the one to prompt questions about my birth certificate for example.
I don`t remember saying, hey, why don`t you ask me about that? You know or why don`t you, you know, question whether I`m American or whether I`m loyal or whether I have America`s best interests at heart.
Those aren`t things that were prompted by any actions of mine. And so, what you`re seeing within the Republican Party is to some degree all those efforts over a course of time.
Creating an environment where somebody like a Donald Trump can thrive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: This week`s "Abc News"-"Washington Post" poll shows 52 percent of Republican and Republican-leaning voters supporting Donald Trump`s unconstitutional proposed ban on Muslims entering the country.
Last night Donald Trump gave his supporters more of what they wanted to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think Islam hates us. There`s something -- there`s something there that -- there`s a tremendous hatred there.
There`s a tremendous hatred. We have to get to the bottom of it. There`s an unbelievable hatred of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Islam itself?
TRUMP: You`re going to have to figure that out, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Today, in a series of tweets, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham speaking for the minority in his community in his party said, "after 36 trips to Iraq and Afghanistan, I know most people of Islamic faith don`t buy what ISIL is selling.
The largest number of ISIL victims are people within the Islamic faith who refuse to bend to ISIL`s will.
We should help them, not disparage the Islamic faith." Joining us now, Bill Scher; senior writer for the Campaign for America`s Future, a contributor to the "New Republic" and a contributing editor to "POLITICO" magazine.
Also with us, Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont and former DNC chairman, he`s also an Msnbc political analyst.
And also joining us, Maria Teresa Kumar; President and CEO of Voto Latino and an Msnbc contributor.
Howard Dean, President says Trump`s not his fault.
(LAUGHTER)
And the stunning thing is that he was actually asked about that at all.
HOWARD DEAN, FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR: You know, the most interesting thing about this week is not so much on the Republican side.
It`s the President`s above 50 percent for the first time in -- yes --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: And that`s a good sign. I think that we were speculating about that today and some people think it`s just because of the -- position of what`s going on on the Republican side.
But I think the President`s having a little fun with this and it`s quite a spectacle.
O`DONNELL: Yes, Maria Teresa, it seems to me that nothing could help the President`s approval rating more than the public watching the possibility of one of these Republicans, especially the frontrunner possibly taking the President`s job.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR, PRESIDENT, VOTO LATINO: No, it was interesting, I had one of my staffers today, was there with the welcoming of the Canadian Prime Minister.
And she came back to the office and shook -- she`s like we`re not going to have a better president any time soon, are we?
(LAUGHTER)
I think that`s how the rest of the American people believe. I mean, what this president has been able to accomplish despite the obstacles, dysfunctional Congress has been amazing.
He gave 60 million Americans healthcare, and all of a sudden they don`t no longer have to file for bankruptcy.
He gave people a shot and continuing education with providing -- with combining folks with community scholarships.
And the list goes on, and he hasn`t stopped. And I think right now, what folks are most troubled with is the tone of the Republican Party because people are starting to get hurt.
And you can`t put that Genie back in the bottle.
O`DONNELL: And Bill, the Republican frontrunner has the absolute worst favorability rating that we`ve ever seen in the history of polling presidential candidates.
He`s got, you know, most people very much oppose to him, don`t like him, it`s a 39 percent negative on favorability versus unfavorability.
Technically, according to all the political arithmetic we have known prior to the age of Trump, that makes it impossible for him to get elected.
But I`m not sure our tools work anymore.
BILL SCHER, SENIOR WRITER, CAMPAIGN FOR AMERICA`S FUTURE: Well, there`s this notion that Trump is unstoppable.
Because he says all these crazy things, all these hateful things and he keeps winning in Republican primaries.
And Republican primary turnout is higher than it has been. But those polls show that there`s a cost at being anti-Muslim and being anti-immigrant.
The poll that you cited is a 52 percent Republicans support this ban of Muslims entering the country.
That`s opposed by about two-thirds of the country. So, the Republican Party as personified by Trump is wildly out of step where Americans are right now.
O`DONNELL: Yes --
SCHER: And there`s no -- I mean, people who think that Trump could somehow (INAUDIBLE) his way through the country through sheer force of personality aren`t looking at the data.
O`DONNELL: Yes, let`s listen to what Trump said about -- today on "Cnbc" about how surprised he is that the Republican Party isn`t just thrilled by what he`s doing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You would think that the Republicans would say, wow, we have hit pay dirt, this is incredible.
Let`s embrace Trump and let`s go and win the election. Let`s get the judges we want, let`s get all of these assets.
Instead, they`re -- I guess they`re upset because maybe I don`t want money. You know, I`m self-funding my campaign and they want to put money into people, so they control them.
And they feel that maybe I`m going to do the right thing for the country, but I`m not going to help them.
I`m going to help everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: You always have to do a quick fact check after Donald Trump says more than one sentence.
(LAUGHTER)
He`s not completely self-funding. He`s gotten about $6 million in contributions so far which she`s been using.
He has been lending money to his campaign which he no doubt hopes to get paid back to him --
DEAN: Wait, I have actually heard he`s paying some of it back by selling all these hats.
O`DONNELL: Yes, and by some --
DEAN: Yes --
O`DONNELL: But also --
DEAN: Some people think he`s actually, you know, making money off his campaign --
O`DONNELL: Well, yes, it`s possible because he does. His team has let it be known that if he becomes the nominee, he is going to go out there and get contributions big time including all these lobbyists and --
DEAN: I talked to a guy today who`s eminently involved with Republicans and he said that Trump has met with the Republican National Committee and demanded a billion dollars in order to run the --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: General election campaign --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: That`s pretty shocking.
O`DONNELL: Well, but what -- I mean, what`s going to be fascinating is to watch that line go out the window of I`m self-funding.
DEAN: Yes --
O`DONNELL: And all those people in the crowd going, he`s so great because he`s incorruptible because he`s self-funding.
He will do a complete 180 on that, and what will they do? Will they go, yes, OK, that`s what they`ve been doing all along.
DEAN: Yes, I`ve been wrong about Donald Trump more than anybody -- you know, I mean --
O`DONNELL: That`s why I`m asking questions.
DEAN: Once a week --
O`DONNELL: I don`t know --
DEAN: I was lost, right --
O`DONNELL: Right --
DEAN: So, I -- you know, I mean, he dissed the pope, I figured well, this is --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: Really going to do it for him --
O`DONNELL: It could be a problem, yes. Maria Teresa, what about that though? I mean, Bill`s point which I think is crucial.
We get lost in this Republican world, Republicans -- it`s a minority party, it`s 28 percent of the voters and some of these primaries are tiny numbers.
I mean even Maine where they had this record turnout, it meant that 2 percent of the voters of Maine actually went out and voted in the Republican primary.
KUMAR: Right --
O`DONNELL: And so when we move into the general and at that point, Donald Trump will be no longer or even pretending to be self-financing.
He has told them he is going to join in their fund-raising efforts for the party, all that stuff.
It`s -- they`re going to see some real movement by Trump away from some of the things he has said in this primary.
KUMAR: Well, he`s -- when is he going to have to, but let`s say Maine, love Maine, been to Maine, it`s not exactly the -- it`s not exactly representative of the Demographics that actually get you to the White House.
Let`s be serious. I think that what he is going to have to do, he is going to pivot apparently the "New York Times" claims that they have an audio recording of him saying that he actually embraces some sort of immigration reform.
Is that enough for him to actually win the White House? I don`t think so. I think what he`s been trying to do is an incredibly strong marketer.
And he`s going to walk back into, you know, into his for-profit industry and continue making money and the Republican Party is going to have to piece itself back together again.
The fact today that the RNC chairman said that they were going to support any nominee regardless does not actually bode well for the future of the Republican Party.
O`DONNELL: But Bill, what do you see happening if he becomes the nominee and he does start to abandon some of his positions as if -- as if they were Trump stakes?
What -- do you -- do you think he still holds on to those Trump people at the rally?
SCHER: Well, there are some Trump people who have just bought into the cult of personality and will stick with him no matter what.
But you also have a faction of Republicans who are never Trump. You have anti-abortion folks who don`t trust Trump on abortion.
You have free traders who don`t like him going populist on TPP. You have national security conservatives who don`t trust him to have his finger on the button(ph).
So, he`s already losing some of the white flank as it is. I agree, has to pivot to these any -- he has to win two-time Obama voters in swing states to win more than --
(LAUGHTER)
O`DONNELL: Yes --
SCHER: Romney got --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
SCHER: In 2012. He`s going to lose some of his right flank from day one. He`s got to lose some more from the flip-flopping.
But it`s his only hope if he`s going to add to what the Republican coalition has been --
KUMAR: I have said, I mean, I actually think that the only winner in all of this is if Trump is the ultimate frontrunner, he is going to beat Hillary Clinton.
Because you`re going to have a lot of moderate Republicans looking at it for the first time and saying, you know what?
At the end of the day, we want someone that is sound of mind, that actually has international experience and can actually be moved on issues such as business and trade.
O`DONNELL: Well, Howard, that`s if Hillary Clinton is the nominee, Michigan surprised her. You`ve been a --
DEAN: Right --
O`DONNELL: Clinton supporter pretty much from the start.
DEAN: Yes --
O`DONNELL: You`re a Bernie constituent and --
DEAN: I am --
O`DONNELL: And --
DEAN: I voted for both of them --
O`DONNELL: And a Hillary supporter.
DEAN: Right --
O`DONNELL: What do you see happening on Tuesday?
DEAN: I don`t know. I mean, I think we were all so shocked by Michigan when --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Now, let me ask -- let me just stop you right there. Before Michigan --
DEAN: Right --
O`DONNELL: If I had asked you what was going to happen this coming Tuesday, would you have been more confident?
Has Michigan been a real --
DEAN: Well, I think that Michigan -- the thing that was so shocking about Michigan was not that Bernie did well.
And Michigan was a lot of labor people and so forth. The thing that was so shocking is every respectable pollster in America was wrong.
O`DONNELL: Way off --
DEAN: I haven`t seen that happen before.
O`DONNELL: Way --
DEAN: I mean in the --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: When Nate Silver(ph) --
(CROSSTALK)
Says 98 percent likelihood that Hillary --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
DEAN: Is going to win, that`s shocking.
O`DONNELL: Yes, and that`s what they`re saying about some of these upcoming states --
DEAN: Right --
O`DONNELL: Maria, quickly --
KUMAR: Well, just very quickly. One of the things that folks who weren`t paying -- who weren`t flagging was the support that Bernie had among Arab- Americans in Dearborn, Michigan.
They went overwhelmingly for her -- for him, and I think it has a lot to do with the Syrian policy currently by this administration that drove them to the Bernie Sanders category.
O`DONNELL: Maria Teresa Kumar, Howard Dean and Bill Scher, thank you all for joining me tonight, really appreciate it.
DEAN: Thank you.
KUMAR: Thanks Lawrence --
SCHER: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, the young man who you`ve seen punched in the face by a Trump supporter at that Trump rally, he will join us along with someone who videotaped some of that.
And former CIA and NSA Director, Air Force General Michael Hayden does not agree with Donald Trump`s view of how we should be fighting terrorism.
General Hayden will join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: I wondered if at some point we were going to see a tall gentleman in a mechanical breathing apparatus come forward and say in a deep voice, Mike Lee, I am your father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The craziest fake filibuster ever. That was Senator Ted Cruz in 2013 on the Senate floor with Senator Mike Lee staging a fake filibuster that of course accomplished nothing.
And today, Ted Cruz finally picked up his first Senate endorsement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE LEE (R), UTAH: So, it`s time for us to recognize that we don`t have to settle anymore. I was waiting, looking for the right moment when it was time to unite.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is this the right moment?
LEE: Things have aligned. Senator Cruz has spoken to the American people, and the American people in state after state have chosen --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Honestly, I hate to see that. Here`s a guy throwing punches, nasty as hell, screaming at everything else when we`re talking.
And he`s walking out and we`re not allowed -- you know, the guards are very gentle with him.
He`s walking out like a big high fives, smiling, laughing -- I`d like to punch him in the face. I`ll tell you.
(CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: We`ve never seen a presidential candidate encourage violence, but Trumpism has changed everything last night in Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Local sheriffs deputies decided to order Rakeem Jones to leave a Trump rally just as Donald Trump began speaking.
Mr. Jones and his friends fully complied with the sheriff`s deputies who surrounded them as they walked out.
And then this happened. That was John McGraw who reached over to punch Rakeem Jones.
Sheriff deputies treated John McGraw as just another happy Trump supporter and allowed him to go back to his seat while they threw Rakeem Jones to the floor and treated him like a criminal.
The sheriff deputies then led Rakeem Jones out of the building and no charges were filed until today when video of what happened appeared on social media and television.
Sheriff`s deputies then arrested John McGraw and charged him with assault and battery and disorderly conduct.
Last month, this is how Donald Trump urged his supporters to treat protesters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell -- I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: John McGraw now knows what that promise was worth. He is spending the night in jail tonight being held on only $2,500 bail which he apparently cannot afford and he`s not getting a penny of help from Donald Trump.
The Trump campaign issued a statement saying, "we are not involved." Thanks to inside edition, we know exactly how proud John Mcgraw was of throwing that punch the night that he did it.
A story that is sure to change under oath in a courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you like the event?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bet I liked it, yes --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you like about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knocking the hell out of that big mouth. We don`t know who he is, but we know he`s not acting like an American.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he deserved it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every one of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes he deserved it. The next time we see him, we might have to kill him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Might have to kill him. Now, where would a Trump supporter ever get an idea like that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Hey, by the way, I hate some of these people, but I`d never kill them.
(LAUGHTER)
I hate them. No, I think -- no, these people, honestly, I`ll be honest, I would be honest. I would never kill them.
(LAUGHTER)
I would never do that -- let`s say -- no, I wouldn`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Yes, that was the first time in history that an American presidential candidate discussed killing people who don`t agree with him.
Thought about it on TV for a moment and then decided not to do it. At least one of his supporters is in jail tonight still thinking about it.
Joining us now Rakeem Jones; the man who was punched at that Trump rally. Also with us Ronnie Rouse who recorded some of the video that you`ve seen of that incident.
Rakeem, could you take us from the beginning and tell us why the sheriff deputies decided you people had to leave the event.
RAKEEM JONES, ASSAULTED AT A TRUMP RALLY: Well, first off, it was more a mixture of words between our group and a group of Trump supporters and us being the first ones to, I guess, draw -- made it bigger than it actually was.
And so on our way out, we got heckled by the crowd and Donald Trump himself was in -- how can I put this.
He was encouraging the crowd -- he was encouraging the crowd to you know, jeer, and to -- encouraging the police to escort me out and as I was being escorted out, you can see on the video I was hit.
O`DONNELL: And Ronnie, you were -- were you walking behind Rakeem?
RONNIE ROUSE, RECORDED A VIDEO OF AN ASSAULT INCIDENT AT A TRUMP RALLY: I`m in front of him.
O`DONNELL: In front of him --
ROUSE: I`m the one in the Carolina jersey --
O`DONNELL: OK --
ROUSE: UNC jersey.
O`DONNELL: OK, and so -- what was your -- did you feel a sense that that kind of danger was present as you were walking up that aisle?
ROUSE: Not at first. I mean, I`m a bigger guy, I`m 6`5, I`m not easily threatened by people.
Especially when the police came, it was one of those times where you`re like, OK, let`s just go along with this.
We kind of expected this to happen and we`re not going to bother fighting this. Let`s just go and peacefully exit.
And the next thing I know, they have Rakeem on the ground, you know, and it`s just crazy because all these police were around him while he was struck.
And they`re throwing him on the ground and telling the guy to go have a seat.
O`DONNELL: And Ronnie, when you say that they`re telling the guy to go have a seat, they knew -- it sounds to me what you`re saying is they knew that`s the guy who threw the punch.
ROUSE: There was an officer behind us, one beside us and at least six in front of us. They were escorting us out.
And after Rakeem got struck, they told the guy to sit down, and they threw Rakeem on the ground.
And you would think Rakeem was the one who threw the first punch, you know. And we were reading an article earlier, they were saying that he may have fell up the steps, he may have tripped -- in so many words.
The steps lead to a top of the pavilion where it`s flat. We were on the flat part, there`s nothing to trip up after they hit-toss him.
O`DONNELL: And Rakeem, the guy who threw the punch at you is now behind bars.
But we heard him say on video without any reluctance after that event talking to inside edition that maybe next time he would have to kill you.
What is it like for you to hear somebody like that saying something like that?
JONES: It`s kind of scary seeing that I have a family who is out here. And I don`t -- I feel for more of their safety than my own.
O`DONNELL: And Ronnie, when you see that guy talking on the video, that`s a glimpse inside Trump supporters that we haven`t seen before.
That kind of candid comment about the whole thing and how glad he was to have done it.
Does that surprise you or when you were there and you`re -- you know, you`re in a crowd like that and you`re wondering what people think.
If someone came along and told you that, will you -- will that -- is that beyond what you imagined some of these people might be thinking?
ROUSE: No, the main thing I was shocked about I said in previous interviews is that, where we live at is Fort Bragg, that`s next to us.
It`s the biggest military installation in the United States where a very diverse cultural city.
And we watched a lot of these other events, these campaign events happen in other cities in the Bible Belt in the south that are more racially charged areas historically.
And we knew it wasn`t going to happen in Fayetteville, and we went to spectate. And it happened to us in front of law enforcement.
And it just -- I felt like we took three steps back. It was the first time I was embarrassed to tell people I was from Fayetteville.
O`DONNELL: And Rakeem, when the police surrounded you and were escorting you out, at that point, did you at least feel, well, I mean, at least we`re safe now the police are escorting us out.
JONES: To be honest, I really didn`t understand the force. You can escort me out, you can walk -- but the force.
ROUSE: They were enormous. It was -- it was 10, 12 officers walking us out. We felt like we were presidential candidates, you would -- that`s what you would think.
You would think we were the candidates getting walked out of the (INAUDIBLE) coliseum.
O`DONNELL: Rakeem Jones, I`m very sorry this happened to you, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
Ronnie Rouse, thank you for capturing that video and making it available, thank you both, really appreciate it.
ROUSE: Thank you.
JONES: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Up next, more violence from the Trump campaign. They are now attacking a reporter from brightart.com(ph) who says she was actually physically roughed up by Donald Trump`s campaign manager.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Guess whose presidential campaign manager was arrested in 1999 for bringing a gun into the house of representatives. Guess whose campaign manager assaulted a reporter Tuesday night.
Corey Lewandowski, Donald Trump`s campaign manager. Michelle Fields of Breitbart News twitted this picture of her arm today, showing what remains of the bruise that she says she got from Lewandowski.
"The Washington Post" Reporter Ben Terris reported, "I watched as a man with short cropped hair in a suit grabbed her arm and yanked her out of the way. He was Corey Lewandowski, Trump`s 41-year-old campaign manager." Politico posted exclusively what it says is the audio of what happened after that assault.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BEN TERRIS, "THE WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER: You OK?
MICHELLE FIELDS, BREIBART NEWS POLITICAL REPORTER: Holy (EXPLETIVE WORD)
TERRIS: Yes. He just threw you down.
FIELDS: I can`t believe he just did that. That was so hard. Was that Corey?
TERRIS: Yes, like, what threat were you?
FIELDS: That was insane. You should have felt how hard he grabbed me. That`s insane. I`ve never had anyone do that to me from a campaign.
TERRIS: Can I put that in my story?
FIELDS: Yes, go for it. That was really awful. That`s so unprofessional.
TERRIS: He really just almost threw you down on the ground.
FIELDS: He literally went like this and was grabbing me down. I don`t even what to do about what he just did to me. Oh my God, that really spooked me that someone would do that.
TERRIS: What threat were you?
FIELDS: Nothing. I was asking about affirmative action.
TERRIS: And, he probably knows you, right?
FIELDS: Yes. I don`t understand. That looks horrible. You`re going after a Breitbart reporter, the people who are nicest to you?
TERRIS: I know, I`m going to put it in my story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Jonathan Allen, head of Community Content at Sidewire and co-author of HRC: State Secrets and the Rebirth of Hillary Clinton. Also with us, Jonathan Alter, MSNBC Political Analyst and columnist for the "Daily Beast."
And, we just heard her saying at the end there that it is amazing because she`s from Breitbart and Jonathan Alter, Corey Lewandowski began his comments about this by saying that he didn`t know she was from Breitbart, presumably indicating that it would have been of course OK to do this if she was from "The New York Times," "The Washington Post" or something like that.
JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean I think when you got somebody who has anger management issues or demons, you know, it could happen to any reporter. It could happen to any person, who is there. There`s a couple of takeaways from this, Lawrence.
You know, if you have a hater at the top, the fish rods from the head, he`s going to attract other haters and other people who have their thuggish qualities. That`s the way it is with all proto-fascists that we`ve seen both, you know, today and in Europe the ultranationalists, who are full of bigotry and in France and Great Britain.
And, in history, if you look at the black shirts under Mussolini, I don`t like using Hitler analogies, because there are so many others. South American fascists. Thugs attract thugs, so this is another thing to worry about with a Trump presidency is it wouldn`t just be Donald Trump.
O`DONNELL: And, there are all sorts of business school theories and organizational theory that says an organization tends to resemble its head. And, Jonathan Allen going off of what Jonathan Alter was just saying about -- Corey Lewandowski is just doing what he believes and knows in his heart Donald Trump would want to do in that situation if he could.
JONATHAN ALLEN, HEAD OF COMMUNITY CONTENT AT SIDEWIRE: Well, as we know, we`ve seen from Donald Trump is that he basically encourages his crowds. He encourages the people around him to a court violence. I mean this is not somebody, who is talking about freedom of speech.
He is not somebody who is talking about how demonstrators should be respected. He is talking about how they should be punched. So, it shouldn`t be surprising if that violence streams down to the people around him. Certainly, the people who are closest around him are people who are inclined to violence surround him.
This is an act that obviously the Trump campaign is denying it. You know, Ben Terris is a pretty well-respected reporter in Washington. You know, Michelle is well known. I can`t imagine that it didn`t happen and they`re out there reporting it.
And, I can`t imagine any campaign that would have that person still as campaign manager if they had done something like that or were accused of doing something like that 24 hours later.
O`DONNELL: Yes. Well, that`s the new twist on this as the day were on today, they decided to handle this a lot more like Donald Trump would. And, they decided to just lie outright about it. "
And, so, Corey Lewandowski went from acknowledging it and saying he did not know it was a Breitbart reporter to then tweeting, saying, "We`re calling" -- and it`s a word I`m not allowed to say, "B.S. on Michelle Fields.
Jonathan Alter, they`re now lying, outright lying, saying that it didn`t happen. Now, one thing I said about this today was this deserves extreme outrage by the press and by the public, but it does not deserve surprise. Anyone who didn`t see this coming from this group just has not been watching.
ALTER: Well, and it will get worse from here. These things don`t, you know, get healed. They escalate as time goes on. So, we`re entering a very, very dangerous period in American history even if Donald Trump is not elected, where we have ripped off the venire of civility that democracy and civilization requires. And, we are seeing what is going on underneath, and it is ugly and it is frightening. And, it is something that everybody in this country is going to take a stand on.
Like I got into a twitter argument this week with Bernie Sanders` supporters when I said that "If Hillary Clinton wins the democratic nomination and they don`t support Hillary Clinton that they will have some responsibility for what Donald Trump does." This is not just another presidential election. This is a time of moral reckoning for every American.
O`DINNELL: And, Corey Lewandowski, let the record shows, the lowest kind of political operative, who has never had a serious position in a serious presidential campaign, has no idea what he`s doing.
Tried -- said he talked about suing people earlier in the campaign who criticized Donald Trump. So, I just want the public to know the reason why you`ve never heard of this guy before is because, he`s never been on this kind of stage before. And, Jonathan Allen, that`s part of what we`re watching. We`re watching amateurs at work.
ALLEN: Well, certainly, people who aren`t familiar with dealing with the press in a way that a politician would and the way an elected official would, if you were running up to a congressman in the capital, no chief of staff, no press secretary would close line you or kneecap you as you tried to do that. It doesn`t happen at the White House.
This is maybe what Donald Trump the private citizen with his own security detail is used to, to keep himself away from the public, but reporters have a different role in our society and they have a different role in covering our candidates and our government. Not only are they being disrespected, but they`re being in some cases being violently abused apparently.
O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen and Jonathan Alter, thank you both for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.
ALTER: Thank you, Lawrence.
ALLEN: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, Donald Trump attacked General Michael Hayden for not approving of Donald Trump`s torture policy. General Hayden joins us next.
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TRUMP: I am in totally support of waterboarding. It has got to be within the law, but I have to expand the law because a lot of people thinks it`s not within the law now, because of this administration.
They are allowed to chop our heads and we are not allowed to waterboarding. Somehow, we`re at a big disadvantage. We have to be tougher than we are. When you have General Hayden saying, "Oh, that`s so terrible the way Trump is talking," that`s why we`re losing.
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O`DONNELL: Joining us now, General Michael Hayden, he is the former director of the National Security Agency and a former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. The only person who has gone directed both.
He is currently a principal of Chertoff Group and the author of the new book, "Playing to the Edge: American Intelligence in the Age of Terror." General, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.
GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN, FMR. DIR. NSA AND CIA: No. Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: I wanted to give you a chance to respond to what Donald Trump just said there about you taking you on by name these days.
GEN. HAYDEN: Yes. You mentioned the title of my book, Lawrence, "Playing to the Edge," and so, I was actually trying to explain to the American people why we were so aggressive during my time at both NSA and CIA. But, Lawrence, implicit in that, "Playing to the Edge" is the reality that there are edges. There are points beyond, which you do not go and we need to simply respect that.
And, so you`ve got Mr. Trump supporting waterboarding, which is now unarguably illegal based upon the actions of congress. He has also come out in favor of intentionally targeting non-combatants, killing the families of terrorists. Something that I have said publicly, I just don`t think the armed forces of the United States would do that.
O`DONNELL: Yes. Talk to us about that general. With your experience in the military, because as I`ve watched the rise of Trump and Trumpism, I`ve been saying to people in private conversations, you know, don`t worry, if we have this situation, where he has ever in a situation room, he`s going to be in there with the same generals pretty much, who are in there now.
And, when he says something crazy, they`re going to straighten him out right away. And, then I also take it beyond that to the hypothetical, if he orders them to do something illegal, they won`t do it. Now, that`s just my personal belief about who works in government now. The J. Edgar Hoovers don`t work there anymore.
But, I don`t know that for a fact. I don`t know those people the way you do and I don`t know what that would be like and I actually don`t know what the training is about what you do in the face of an illegal order, so please you have the floor on all of that.
GEN. HAYDEN: Sure, Lawrence. First of all, with regard to the training, I got that as an ROTC Cadet in the mid 1960s that an illegal order simply has no force. It`s not an order. And, we were reminded very, very powerfully that the Nuremberg defense, I was ordered to do this, is not a defense at all.
You`re responsible for your actions. And, I`m totally confident that everyone in an American military uniform still gets that lesson. So, I would expect -- Lawrence, look, there are gray issues here. My book is just woven full of shades of gray. It`s never black and white. And, the military gives great death threats to the commander in chief, of course.
But, if he were to order the intentional killing of non-combatants, I am with you, Lawrence, I would expect that the first American military uniform that, that order would hit would have a man or a woman in that uniform simply saying, "Sir, I`m sorry, that`s just not going to happen." That`s not a mutiny. OK. That`s not a military coup. That`s an American Military Officers being true to their oaths.
O`DONNELL: He said more of it in tonight`s debate. What he`s saying now is since you and others have come out criticizing what he first said. He said, "OK, I don`t want to violate the law." You had to teach him that waterboarding is against the law.
Now, he`s saying, "I`m not going to violate the law." But, not what he is saying and he is saying tonight is I want to expand the law to include torture and he said the way he said it tonight is, "We better expand our laws or we`re going to be a bunch of suckers and they are laughing at us."
He said, he wants to expand our laws to allow -- and he was comparing -- he was citing all sorts of torturous things and barbaric things that ISIS does, saying we want to be in a level plain field with them. So, presumably, we want to be able to drown people in big cages and behead them too. That seems to be what he is saying.
GEN. HAYDEN: Lawrence, I did not see the debate, but if he said anything close to being, "We want to be on a level playing field." --
O`DONNELL: General, let me give you his words exactly.
GEN. HAYDEN: Yes.
O`DONNELL: He says, "We have to expand those laws because we have to be able to fight on at least somewhat of an equal footing."
GEN. HAYDEN: Yes. Again, Lawrence, that`s instinctually repulsive to me. Now, look, to be totally honest, Lawrence. I opposed President Obama closing our black sites at CIA. I wanted to keep a small suite of what we call enhanced interrogation techniques on the table.
And, so there`s a certain toughness to the actions that we were espousing at the agencies we changed from the Bush to the Obama administration. But. Mr. Trump has actually said something along the lines of and we should do this because they deserve it.
Lawrence, we never did it because anyone deserved it. We`re not the arm of American justice. We`re American intelligence. This is about getting life-saving intelligence, not looking backward, but looking forward. In additional out here, Lawrence, if we could kill our way out of this problem, this war would have been over 14 years ago.
I was part of the most magnificent killing machine in human history, and we have to use this to keep ourselves safe. But, that`s a necessary step, not sufficient. We need to do a lot more.
Lawrence, if we don`t change the facts on the ground and some of the things Mr. Trump has said is going to make it more difficult to do that, if we don`t change the facts on the ground, then people like me and the people I left behind get to kill other people forever.
O`DONNELL: General Hayden your experience and insight on this is invaluable to us. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. The book is called "Playing to the Edge." General, thank you again very much. I really appreciate it.
GEN. HAYDEN: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, in tonight`s "Last Word," Donald Trump dared reporters to fact check him and it turns out no one does that better than Comedy Central.
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O`DONNELL: As part of our seven days of genius program, our partners at New York`s 92nd Street Y have created an exhibit that focuses on the power of genius to change the world. The exhibit features women who have made important important contributions, but often go unaccredited.
Also, as Benjamin Franklin`s 13 virtues and a look at how the modern piano was created. The 92nd Street Y is also honouring potential future geniuses as part of the exhibit. They tweeted, "Lawrence in "The Last Word" are supporting the next generation of geniuses at 92nd Street Y, Seven Days of Genius."
We created the K.I.N.D. Fund with this simple idea that picking a child off of a classroom floor and giving him a desk can open a world of possibilities. But, right now, sitting on the floor at the back of a classroom, they could be a struggling student, who really has great potential. Potential to be an innovative scientist or maybe the next Malawi scientist.
And, maybe by providing desks for those classrooms, for those kids, they will be able to excel in the classrooms in new ways and have chance to become a lawyer or a nurse as so many of them want to be.
Maybe even future president or go on to do the great things that will impact our world. You can help the K.I.N.D. Fund by going to LastWordDesks.MSNBC.com. Any amount will be helpful. Every bit helps to support this next generation of geniuses.
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O`DONNELL: And, now for tonight`s "Last Word." Donald Trump turned this week`s election night speech into a 40-minute infomercial, mostly for Trump stuff that no longer exists.
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TRUMP: And, we have water, and it`s a very successful -- you know, it is a private little water company and they supply the water for all my places and it`s good. And, we have Trumps steaks. And, by the way, if you want to take one, we charge you about what? 50 bucks a steak.
He said "Trump Magazine is out." I said, "It is. I thought I read one two days ago." This comes out and it`s called the "The Jewel of Palm Beach." The airline, by the way, I sold the airline. You know, he said, "Trump Airline." Well, I sold the airline and I actually made a great deal.
But, we have a lot of great people that want to get back into Trump University. It is going to do very well. And, by the way, the winery, you see the wine, because he mentioned Trump Vodka. It is the largest winery on the East Coast. I own it 100 percent. No mortgage. No debt. You could all check -- you have to go check the records, folks. In fact, the press, I am asking you. Please check.
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O`DONNELL: That`s exactly what I was doing. I was checking the records while he was speaking, but I didn`t get a chance to say much about it that night, because we kept cutting from one candidate`s speech to another without leaving any real time for content analysis and what any of them had to say. But, luckily "The Daily Show" Jordan Klepper took Trump`s assignment to check his facts seriously.
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JORDAN KLEPPER, HOST OF "THE DAILY SHOW": And, right there on the website of the thing he boasted he owned 100 percent of, it says that Trump Winery is not owned, managed or affiliated with Donald J. Trump.
There used to be a thing called Trump Steaks back in 2007. Trump used to sell them through the Sharper Image catalogue. According to Sharper Images then CEO, they literally sold almost no steaks.
There was a Trump magazine from 2007 to 2009. They published about 10 issues, like this one with its hard hitting cover story with champagne and (EXPLETIVE WORD).
The Trump Airlines (EXPLETIVE WORD). The business defaulted. It was sold off. Trump Water is just generic bottled water. he slapped his name on. Trump University is a joke. I mean I spent all night looking into this stuff and spoiler alert, it`s all (EXPLETIVE WORD). Wow! Wow!
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O`DONNELL: Jordan Klepper gets tonight`s "Last Word." Our live coverage continues next with Chris Matthews with reactions to tonight`s republican debate.
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