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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 1/27/2016

Guests: Michael Moore; Tony Dokoupil,Jonathan Alter, David Frum, Jon Soltz

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: January 27, 2016 Guest: Michael Moore; Tony Dokoupil,Jonathan Alter, David Frum, Jon Soltz

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Flint`s own Michael Moore joins us tonight, but first, you may have seen Donald Trump`s last debate.

Donald Trump is not just afraid of Megyn Kelly`s debate questions, he is afraid of ever having to debate anyone who really disagrees with his policies.

Donald Trump has now set the precedent for refusing to debate, which is exactly what he maybe will try to do if he becomes the Republican nominee.

He will refuse to debate the Democrat.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: I`m asking you to --


O`REILLY: Reconsider it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The GOP frontrunner says he is skipping Thursday`s Fox News debate.

TRUMP: I was not treated fairly, you know that, right? Does everybody agree with that?


O`REILLY: Let`s look at it from a broader point of view rather than how you --

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: He doesn`t get to control the media.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: I got news for you. He is controlling the media.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC: Trying to look bigger than Fox. Bigger than the debate. Bigger than anything we`ve seen in this process before --

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, MEET THE PRESS: Trump may not show up on the Fox News stage on Thursday, but he`s received another offer.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We`ll do 90 minutes, Lincoln, Douglas, mano-a- mano, Donald and me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, there you go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump finally responded to Ted Cruz`s challenge, can we do it in Canada?

TRUMP: We`re going to go wherever with these debates.

O`REILLY: That`s what America is about, robust --


O`REILLY: Debate --

TRUMP: Have fun --

O`REILLY: Don`t walk away from it.

TRUMP: At some point, you got to start doing other things other than debating.

O`REILLY: All right, you owe me -- your 17 milk shakes then, and I want them.

TRUMP: That`s OK, I`ll do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the wildest time that I can remember.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump is afraid of Megyn Kelly. He has spent months proving that.

But he is more afraid of Hillary Clinton and he`s more afraid of Bernie Sanders and that is why he pulled out (AUDIO GAP 00:02:12-15) -- general election against a Democrat.

But because he knows in a one-on-one debate, which he`s never been in a one-on-one debate against a Democrat.

Donald Trump would get wiped out. In the last two and a half hour debate, Donald Trump spoke a total of 17 minutes, 8 seconds.

In a one-on-one debate against a Democrat, Trump would have to speak much more than that.

At least 45 minutes and more, depending on when the debate would close. No one knows better than Donald Trump that Donald Trump doesn`t know anything.

That he is an utter ignoramus on all matters of governing, and the more time he has in a debate, the more time there is to expose that.

And no one can do that better than someone who disagrees with his policies. No one can do that better than a Democrat.

And the Republican debates, everyone else on the stage agrees with Donald Trump about most policy issues.

The game in the Republican debates is to prove you are conservative enough. Donald Trump has no idea how to debate anyone who will attack him for being too conservative.

Donald Trump is ducking a debate being run by the network where the highest rated host openly calls him a friend on his show and where he is the favorite guest of most of the other hosts.

Why would that Donald Trump then submit in the general election to questions in debates hosted by neutral networks who are not open friends of Trump and supporters of Trump?

Donald Trump doesn`t know much, but he knows that someone who`s an ignoramus about government cannot debate his way to the presidency.

Donald Trump is now playing the long game. Tomorrow night is only the first debate that Donald Trump will refuse to participate in.

But his friend of 35 years Bill O`Reilly doesn`t seem to understand that yet. And so Bill, begged Donald tonight to show up at the Fox News debate tomorrow.


O`REILLY: I bought you so many vanilla milk-shakes, you owe me. Will --

TRUMP: It`s true --

O`REILLY: You just --

TRUMP: That`s true --

O`REILLY: Consider --

TRUMP: That`s true --

O`REILLY: I want you to consider, all right? Think about it, say look, I might come back.

Forgive, go forward, answer the questions, look out for the folks. Just want you to consider it.

You owe me milk shakes, I`ll take them off the --

TRUMP: Right --

O`REILLY: Ledger if you consider it.

TRUMP: Well, even though you and I had an agreement that you wouldn`t ask me that, which we did, I will therefore forget that you asked me that.

But it`s up to "Fox", it`s not up to me, Bill, they -- what they did is --

O`REILLY: You`re actually telling the truth there --


And telling the truth and I said --

TRUMP: Because I told you --

O`REILLY: I said --

TRUMP: Upfront I said, don`t ask me that question because it`s an embarrassment --


O`REILLY: And of course, I`m not going to listen --


But I`m not going to listen to anybody -- right, but I`m not going to listen to any political person -- told me don`t ask me anything.

But you`re absolutely an honest man, then I said I`ll try not to do it if it`s a milk-shake thing just overwhelm me.

But I`m asking you to --

TRUMP: Sure --

O`REILLY: Reconsider it --

TRUMP: A lot of milk-shakes --

O`REILLY: If you don`t want to, it`s up to you and I`ll give you a complement.

I don`t know any politician under these circumstances that would have come on in here and done what you did tonight.


O`DONNELL: A few minutes ago, the stakes surrounding the debate drama have escalated a bit tonight.

Pro Ted Cruz Super PACs have offered donations to veterans charities if Donald Trump agrees to debate Ted Cruz.

Saying, "in response to Senator Ted Cruz`s challenge of a one-on-one debate, the principal donors of the Keep the Promise One and Two Super PACs are offering presidential candidate Donald Trump a truly fantastic deal.

Pledging to donate $1.5 million to charities committed to helping veterans if Mr. Trump agrees to debate Senator Cruz in Iowa.

Joining us now, Jonathan Alter; Msnbc political analyst, a columnist for "Daily Beast".

And David Frum, senior editor for "The Atlantic". Full disclosure, I have never bought either one of these guys a milk shake.

Jonathan Alter, if Bill -- if Donald Trump wins in Iowa after skipping this debate, why would he ever debate again?

JONATHAN ALTER, COLUMNIST, DAILY BEAST: I think it`s a great point. You know, he doesn`t want to debate these other Republicans in smaller groups either.

Why does he want to go --

O`DONNELL: Right --

ALTER: One-on-one with Ted Cruz who was the top debater in the whole country when he was at Princeton.

And we know knows his way around a debate, and he won`t obviously want to go against Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders in the general election.

For the reasons that you indicated earlier on. The question is whether he can get away with it.

So, the first presidential debate was in 1960, Kennedy versus Nixon. Then in 1964, LBJ was the incumbent, he had such a big lead over Goldwater, he said no debate.

Sixty-eight, Nixon had a big lead over Humphrey, he had done so badly against Kennedy, said no debates.

Same thing in `72 when Nixon run for re-election. So, it wasn`t until `76, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford that the debate tradition really started.

The question is whether for, you know, 40 years later with everybody assuming there`re going to be debates that Trump can get away with this.

I think what we`ll have is a long tiresome debate over debates, and then eventually, Trump will be forced to cry uncle and attend them.

O`DONNELL: David Frum, I just think Donald Trump has been willing to point to the Eisenhower administration for president on his policies involving the Mexican border.

I don`t see him having any problem pointing to those big years where we had no presidential debate whatsoever.

And saying look, the country got on just fine without presidential debates.

DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, look, first, about the milk-shake, this is Msnbc, so I assume what I would get is a kale smoothie.

So, I think -- as far as I -- I mean, you`re a very astute observer of politics, on this one, I think you are wrong.

I mean, you`re indulging -- you`re indulging your way of looking at politics, which is highly literal and highly rationalistic.

These debates are not places where candidates line up their policy ideas and micro detect flaws.

These are -- these are -- this is like a scene from 2001 with the apes and the bones. These are dominance contest.

That is what is going on in those stages. That is what Donald Trump really did, although he didn`t always make sense.

He completely crushed Jeb Bush in earlier debates because he dominated him.

And right now, Donald Trump is engaged in a dominance contest with what has been for the past six years the most powerful force in conservative politics, "Fox News", and he is breaking them.

And he is breaking them publicly, and he is forcing them to submit. So, if the question is, who is the strongest force? He`s winning that argument.

And one of the things I kind of wonder about, if it should happen, and it`s hard to imagine.

If it should happen that Donald Trump does win the Republican nomination, he is going to do a very fast pivot to the center.

He`s got a lot of space to do that. Remember he used to be more of a gun controller. He used to be more in favor of the national healthcare service.

And what he has just done is punch "Fox News" in the mouth and gotten away with it.

Doesn`t that warm the hearts of many independent and Democratic-leaning voters?

O`DONNELL: Well --


I strongly -- I strongly doubt it --

FRUM: Yes --

O`DONNELL: But this is one of those great save the video night, because we`re going to find out in the general election if Trump is the nominee, whether he engages in the debates or not.

And whether my guess is right or not. And David, we`ll be back to discuss that if it happens.

But let`s listen to what Bill O`Reilly said to Donald Trump about -- he tried to teach him a religious lesson to get him to appeal to his religious principles to come and do the debate tomorrow night.


O`REILLY: I want people to know you, I`ve known you 35 years, all right, they don`t know you --

TRUMP: Well, OK --

O`REILLY: I know you.

TRUMP: That`s right --

O`REILLY: You went to church last week, you don`t usually go. And you went to church in Iowa --

TRUMP: I do go a lot --

O`REILLY: And --

TRUMP: What do you mean I don`t usually go, I got to church a lot --

O`REILLY: Well, you know, a lie --

TRUMP: I mean --

O`REILLY: But not on every --


OK, in your -- in your Christian faith, there is a very significant tenet and that`s the tenet of forgiveness.

And I think you should forgive not only journalists who come at you in ways you don`t like. But I think you should be the bigger man, and say, you know what?

I didn`t like it, and you should make that case all day long. But I`m not going to take any action against it.

O`DONNELL: You know, don`t you think that`s the right thing to do?

TRUMP: It probably is.


O`DONNELL: It probably is, Jonathan. So, he -- to me, it`s all about Monday night.

He wins Iowa, his strategy of sitting at the debate is proven he doesn`t have to do anything.

He doesn`t have to lift a finger to win New Hampshire at this point, right? And roll on to --

ALTER: Right --

O`DONNELL: South Carolina from there.

ALTER: Right, well, first of all, we have to just pause for a minute and observe what we just saw --

O`DONNELL: Please do, this is --

ALTER: Yes, one bully --


ALTER: Lecturing another bully --


ALTER: On the playground about --


ALTER: Christian ethics --

O`DONNELL: And forgiveness, yes --

ALTER: You don`t see that everyday.


ALTER: So, these are the -- maybe two out of the three if you include Roger Ailes -- two out of the three biggest bullies in our public life right there --


ALTER: Talking Christian --


ALTER: Ethics.


O`DONNELL: Debates being about dominance. That may be true in the Republican dinosaur debate. With all of --

ALTER: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Them up on the stage. But --

ALTER: You`re right --

O`DONNELL: But one-on-one --

ALTER: Right --

O`DONNELL: One-on-one, we saw in those debates with Mitt Romney and with President Obama that specifics mattered.

ALTER: See, I guess where I tend to side a little bit more with David is - -

O`DONNELL: You can do that, all allowed here --

ALTER: I mean, I think you`re right that Trump might do this, because he can get away with it and why take the risk of debate if he doesn`t have to.

If he`s doing well enough in the polls without debates, why debate? He --


O`DONNELL: Right --

ALTER: The angles --

O`DONNELL: Right --

ALTER: But I don`t think he`s afraid, because I think he does see it as an elephant male contest and he`s very confident in his ability to master those events.

Where you`re on to something, is that, he wouldn`t brag quite so much if he -- wasn`t a bundle of insecurity deep inside, right?

So, at a certain point, we`re going to find where that insecurity lies, because --


The process is relentless and in exposing people. So, now, Trump has been -- exposes a demagogue, a buffoon and a jerk.

We`ll see whether he exposes a coward. I don`t think this incident does it, yes --

O`DONNELL: David Frum, quickly, before you go. There are psychology teachers now who are using tapes of Trump to teach what narcissists insecurity looks like.

FRUM: Look, politicians are narcissist, and look, if people were completely secure, why will they go into politics in the first place? --

O`DONNELL: There you go --

FRUM: Who needs this kind of validation. But just -- I just -- it`s important to understand that he didn`t run away from a fight in this case, and I don`t say this in a Rush Limbaugh way to build him up.

I just understand what happened here. Who is dominating who? And that is - - that`s going to be the important question, and even in Trump`s absence if he is indeed absent in the end.

That he will be the overwhelming force, he will be more present than that debate by not being there that he would be, even if he were there.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to leave it there. Jonathan Alter and David Frum, thank you both for joining me tonight, I really appreciate it.

Coming up, some veterans groups do not want to join Donald Trump in the fight against Megyn Kelly and "Fox News".

And Michael Moore is here to react to Rachel`s town hall in Flint tonight.

And we have new information about the standoff in Oregon, and we now know the identity of that armed militia man who was killed by police.

He has appeared on this program. And a last word tonight about a very special hero.



SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: I know that there`s some discussion the other day about a political interview where he`s tipping the scale towards Secretary Clinton.

I don`t believe that at all. I think he and the Vice President have tried to be fair, and even handed in the process and I expect they will continue to be that way.


O`DONNELL: Bernie Sanders met with President Obama at the White House today, the administration says that Senator Sanders asked for the meeting in December.

The President has had two similar meetings with Hillary Clinton. The White House says that Martin O`Malley hasn`t asked to meet with the President.

But President Obama would make time for him if he did ask. Up next, a veterans group says they will not let Donald Trump hide behind them in his fight with Megyn Kelly and "Fox News".



TRUMP: In a true sense, they are our greatest people. The wounded warriors, the vets. Everybody say we have illegal immigrants that are taken care of better than our vets.

It`s not going to happen. It`s not going to happen. From here, where do I go? I`m going to Iowa?

What am I going to do there? Who the hell does? We`re going to raise -- you know what we`re going to do?

We`re going to raise a lot of money for the vets, that`s what we`re going to do.


We`re going to raise a lot of money.


O`DONNELL: That was Donald Trump tonight in South Carolina. Two veterans organizations do not support Donald Trump`s political stance scheduled for tomorrow night.

Paul Rieckhoff; president of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America said, "if offered, we will decline donations from Trump`s event.

We need strong policies from candidates, not to be used for political stunts." The group said in a statement, "don`t hide from Megyn Kelly behind us."

Jon Soltz, Chairman of said today, "let me put this in language Donald Trump understands.

You`re a loser. You`re a third-rate politician who clearly doesn`t understand issues and is so scared of Megyn Kelly exposing it, that you`re looking to use veterans to protect you from facing her questions."

Joining us now is Jon Soltz, the chairman of Jon, you made it very clear to Donald Trump.

Now, what -- did you know of any veterans organizations that are participating in this event with him tomorrow?

JON SOLTZ, CHAIRMAN, VOTEVETS.ORG: I don`t. I mean, the last time he did this, it was after he insulted John McCain`s service in Vietnam.

And he went and stood in front of a Naval ship with a group called Veterans for Secure America which ended up not being a legitimate veterans organization.

They didn`t even file their paperwork with the IRS, so, I`m not quite sure which veterans group he`s going to help.

But it`s most likely going to be one that he himself created.

O`DONNELL: What is -- give us more of your reaction when you -- when you see a candidate like this saying, you know, for political reasons I`m not going to do this debate.

And -- but here is what I`m going to do instead and I`m going to try to get veterans groups to help me out with this stunt. What`s your reaction to that?

SOLTZ: Well, I think the first thing is that when you run for president, you have to be commander-in-chief.

I think for those of us who`ve served overseas and are still serving, this is a guy who`s trying to dodge a serious conversation about where he stands on issues.

And so, I think his temperament has to come into question. If you want to be president, you have to be cool, you have to be calm, you have to collective.

Because you`re not just a Twitter president like he`s sort of been a Twitter candidate, you have to actually lead men and women in combat.

And so, I think his temperament is an issue. I think the second problem is hiding behind veterans.

I mean, yes, veterans are trusted in this country. The military is trusted in this country, and I think Donald Trump is, you know, he`s a huge narcissist and a great marketer.

And he`s trying to hide behind people that have credibility. And I think it`s up to us in the veterans community to stand up and say you don`t care about us.

You haven`t done anything for us, and don`t use us for your political props because you`re essentially afraid to answer questions from Megyn Kelly.

O`DONNELL: And what`s your reaction to what he says about veterans in terms of policy? And I use the word policy lightly I guess, because, all he says is, oh, I`m going to be great.

I`ve never heard him say a specific sentence of anything he would do.

SOLTZ: Well, I think if you look at his website, he doesn`t even have a core(ph) -- you know, it`s just like the veterans affairs.

You know, it`s not even called veterans affairs. It`s -- so, he has a real struggle with understanding basic policy about what the backlog is.

I mean, right now, basically, he`s saying is, veterans can just go out to private doctors.

You know, there`s no better tested message against privatization than taking a veteran who served in Iraq or Afghanistan for two or three tours, and telling them you`re going to hand them over to a private healthcare company.

So, he`s light on policy and I think that`s par for the course for him. He`s light on a variety of other issues including, you know, how he feels about Latinos and immigrants.

So, he`s certainly someone who strikes us as doesn`t have, you know, any in-depth knowledge of how to help veterans at all.

And some of the issues we face, 20 percent of our troops are coming back with issues like PTSD.

Absolutely, no substance behind him whatsoever in regards to actually helping veterans.

When I met Donald Trump, I met him in 2006, and I walked right up to him in an event and I said, hey, I served in Iraq and I`m trying to help veterans run for office.

And he looked at me, it was at a buffet, and he said, send me a letter in the mail and walked away from me.

And so, that was all I ever had to know of Donald Trump, that when I met him personally, he basically dismissed, you know, trying to help veterans at all get involved in the political process.

So, this doesn`t surprise me now that he`s running for president. That he doesn`t really know our issues.

O`DONNELL: Jon Soltz, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

SOLTZ: Thanks a lot --

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Michael Moore is here with his reaction to the town hall meeting in his hometown of Flint, Michigan tonight.



MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: This is not a natural disaster.


MOORE: Thus, this is not a mistake.


MOORE: It`s a man-made disaster. And we need to start using the proper words when we talk about this.


MOORE: Ten people have been killed --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right --

MOORE: In Flint. Ten people were killed here because of a political decision --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right --

MOORE: To save money --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right --

MOORE: And put at lives --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right --

MOORE: The risk --


MOORE: The risk the lives of people here in this city --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right --

MOORE: That is majority African-Americans where 41 percent live below the official poverty line.


O`DONNELL: That was Michael Moore in his hometown of Flint 11 days ago. Here is Michigan governor Rick Snyder in Flint today.


GOV. RICK SNYDER (R), MICHIGAN: Our goal is to get that water come out of the tap safe as soon as possible.

Let`s take care of the people of Flint about making sure the short term have bottle water, filters, everything else they need.

And then how do we get good water coming out of the tap, and then how do we rebuild the community.


O`DONNELL: The governor was a no show at Rachel Maddow`s town hall tonight in Flint.


MADDOW: I mean, I asked Governor Rick Snyder himself multiple times, if he would please come tonight to this town hall and talk with the residents of Flint.

He never said no, he never said anything.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Michael Moore, Flint hometown boy. Michael, big surprise, the governor didn`t come to the town meeting tonight.

MOORE: Certainly not to Rachel`s because she`s been all over this for months, long before any of the other --


MOORE: National media came to Flint, Rachel was there. And I know everybody in Flint tonight was very happy and proud to have her there.

O`DONNELL: You have said -- you made this point, and what I like about -- there`s an echo to what Harry Shearer(ph) kept saying for years about Katrina, it was not a natural disaster.

MOORE: Right --

O`DONNELL: This is a man-made disaster --

MOORE: Correct --

O`DONNELL: By inadequate structures and designs by the army Corp engineers in New Orleans, we didn`t have to have that plotting.

And this was -- there was nothing -- everything about this -- everything about it was man-made.

MOORE: That`s correct. It was man-made by a governor who belongs to a political party, whose philosophy has been since Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980, that they believe that lost government is better.

And the trickle-down economic theory, the philosophy that says that, you know, we only really have to listen to the 1 percent who put us into office.

So, if you live in a city where over 40 percent of the people live below the official poverty line, where 60 percent of the city is African-American --


MOORE: We don`t need -- so what?


MOORE: That`s really the attitude, and everybody in Flint knows this. They`ve been complaining about this for almost two years.

As soon as the water started coming out of the taps in April of 2014, the rashes, the sores, the smell, everything told you something was seriously wrong here.

And, they would take it -- put it in bottles of water and take it, you know, down to Lansing because there was no government in Flint. You understand that. There is so-called, emergency manager thing, which you guys have covered very well. That is a term emergency manager. What happened was that the Governor took over, fired the elected officials, the mayor and the city council.

O`DONNELL: When there was no emergency at all.

MOORE: When there was no emergency. If anything, the emergency was back around 1982 when General Motors started closing factories --



MOORE: -- and moving them to third world countries. That is when somebody should have sounded emergency whistle. But, no, he took them over and basically installed his crony. Essentially, Flint has operated under a dictator now before this many years, where the people have no said.

And, the dictator said to the Governor, "You know what? I can save you $15 million if we just take the water and make them drink it out of the Flint River." And, the governor`s people like, "Yeah, that sounds like a good idea."

And, there was like one voice in the room and he goes, "You know, it might be a little dangerous. If we just put this one chemical in the water. It is a safe chemical to drink. It will seal the lead in the pipes, so that it will not leach into the water." And, somebody in the room goes, "How much is that going to cost?"

And, the guy goes, $100 a day for three months." "That is too damn much money. We are here to save money." Because, you see, Governor Snyder had just cut a billion dollars worth of taxes for the rich in Michigan for the corporations in Michigan.

So, it is like he is not looking for ways to cut services and costs. And, one of the ways they thought of cutting was to stop having people in Flint drink from Lake Huron, which is a glacial lake formed 10,000 years ago in the last ice age.

As pure as a lake could be these days. Stop drinking that water and start drinking from the Flint river. I do not have -- you have to be from Flint to understand when you hear the words Flint River.

O`DONNELL: I get it.

MOORE: Yes. Does anybody if I say --

O`DONNELL: As soon as I heard there was a river in Flint.


MOORE: If I said right now that the Governor of New York had just instructed that the citizens of New York should now drink from the Gowanus Canal.


MOORE: I do not think you have to be here to know what that means.


MOORE: Not a good idea and nobody listened. And, right away -- where from the beginning he was told, "Something is not right here." And, he just turned his head the other way. It was just -- I went to this 100th birthday celebration of Arthur Miller, the other night here in town.


MOORE: And, they read from his plays and all my sons, the story of a factory owner that who was making parts in World War II for the airplanes. And, he sees that on crate some of the parts are cracked and he convinces himself, "Ah, that is probably OK. Just a little crack." And, then of course, first a plane comes down, kills 23 soldiers and now the cover-up begins. The rationalization begins.

This governor, I mean I will tell you, not only -- they were calling for his resignation because they were being polite because Rachel was there, but we want him arrested. We want the Attorney General in D.C. to come in and investigate and prosecute this individual. You know, it would be one thing if he is just dumb and he did not know, but they knew.

O`DONNELL: You live in a country where you can get arrested for driving recklessly without having injured anyone, just by driving recklessly, doing something that is potentially dangerous can get you arrested.

MOOR : Yes, even if it was not, quote, "Your fault."


MOORE: You know? Because you were not paying attention. If you ran a 4- year-old over, if your car goes up over the curb and kills a 4-year-old, you more than likely are going to have to go to a jail, because you are reckless.

O`DONNELL: It will be your liability.

MOORE: You cannot say, "I did not plan to do it."

O`DONNELL: Uh-huh.

MOORE: I did not intend to do it. Well, that is just too bad because you have killed a 4-year-old. You know, but this is far worse because they knew. In trying to save money, in trying to cut costs, while they were cutting taxes for the rich, this is what is so evil about this. This is what has got people so infuriated in Flint.

And, frankly, people have had it. They do not want -- you know, I wrote this thing today on my website about, you know, stop sending bottles of water. There is 100,000 people. Detroit delivered 100,000 bottles of water on Friday. It was a beautiful gesture, but that is one bottle per person. That is enough to brush your teeth with today.

There is no amount of bottled water is going to save this situation. And, when people say to you, "What can I do to help?" And, my honest answer is you cannot help. You cannot help because the irreversible brain damage has already occurred. These kids are ruined for life.

There is no medicine. There is nothing that can turn that brain damage back. This has happened. And, it was done knowingly. It was done knowing they were drinking lead-filled water, at least since last February they have known that. And, it is just -- it is -- you know, I wish there was like we could put up like your K.I.N.D. program on an 800 thing or a website you could go to, but these children have been ruined.


MOORE: Now, we can stop further ruining of other children and making it worse for them. But, as of today, as NBC reported, not one lead pipe has been removed. Not one has been changed out for something safe. This has been going on now since he has announced it in October, since he declared his emergency -- what? Three weeks ago.

O`DONNELL: Uh-huh.

MOORE: Not one pipe removed and replaced. I am telling you, this guy has no intention of doing anything. He has hired a crisis management PR firm from New York City and that is why you are starting to see him make the rounds. Not on this network.


I am sure he has been told not to come here, but he has made his rounds and he is trying to PR this thing, but it is not going to work. When he says that there is -- well 100 children have tested. Like what Rachel said, remember, the testing for lead only works really for 48 hours. You can detect some traces for 28 days.

O`DONNELL: Uh-huh.

MOORE: But, it is only what lead they took in for the last 28 hours. So, if you are testing the kids now who drank the water for eight months, that damage has been done and it is left their bloodstream. It went into their brains, damaged the brain, left the body. You cannot test adequately for this.

So, any time -- I am just saying to anybody, listen to this, if they hear the Governor make these statements, you must abide by this old eye of stone, this journalist who said everything said by governments should not be believed. They should have to prove that they are telling the truth.

You start with the assumption you are being lied to. And, then maybe they are not lying, but make them prove what they are saying. And, this guy, absolutely -- Hopefully, my goal is to have him arrested. I want him arrested and I want him him put away for what he has done. I am sorry to be so harsh.

O`DONNELL: No. I understand your feelings.

MOORE: My town has gone through so much over these last 30 years with what they have done to the factories, the Wall Street and now this. Everybody is home is worthless now. Who can sell their home in Flint?


MOORE: The value of their homes, as small as it was, is now zero.

O`DONNELL: Whole collapse of the small world of Flint. Mike, I will take a break here.

MOORE: OK. I am sorry.

O`DONNELL: We are going to be right back with more with Michael Moore



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You said last week over 100 children here in Flint have high levels of lead in their blood. How many kids is it as we sit here today?

GOV. RICK SNYDER, MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: It is about hundred and some if you go back on over the last couple of years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You are saying there is a hundred children as of now and there could be many, many more.

GOV. SNYDER: There could be many more and we are assuming that.


O`DONNELL: He is assuming that.

MOORE: Yes. I am sorry to use such harsh language. I do not know if they will believe me here, but that is a lie. He is just lying. The doctors, the scientists, everybody who is there, who has been studying this, there are 9,000 children, 6 years old and under in Flint. This the most -- the people whose brains are most pliable in terms of being damaged by lead.

9,000 children, all 9,000 have been exposed to this. 9,000 have been exposed. That 100 may have been on one day. That means in the last 48 hours, but they did not test all 9,000 children that day. And, this is just a number that the PR people gave him to say, so the people -- Just like he said two weeks ago when he said the National Guard -- he is sending in the National Guard. Remember that?


MOORE: You know how many he sent in? Seven. There were seven on that Wednesday. Seven National Guards showed up and the only activated seven from the city of Flint. Seven guards from the city of Flint to hand out water bottles. In other words, seven who were already poisoned themselves. This guy, I am telling you -- this is -- All 9,000 children of 6 and under have been exposed to this. All hundred thousand of people in Flint.

O`DONNELL: And, the adults.

MOORE: And, the adults.

O`DONNELL: We are stressing children because children are much more vulnerable as they are in physiology.

MOORE: And their innocence.


MOORE: Because, the adults get to have a say who the governors.


MOORE: You know, the kids have no say, who made this decision. Now, obviously, the people of Flint did not vote for this Governor, and he knows that. That is why he did not do anything in part about this. But, you know, I think the one thing that got made on Rachel`s show there, a good point that got made is that, there is a surplus this year of $600 million in a rainy day fund of another $600 million. And, I think that the people of Michigan who voted for this man twice, my fellow Michigans, I think that that money has to come from the state to fix the problem that the state --

O`DONNELL: What do you think the feeling is in -- I mean Flint -- for people who live at great distances from Flint.


O`DONNELL: Is this -- do you believe the state is now surging in sympathy for Flint or do they think that is over there. It has got nothing to do with us.

MOORE: I think the majority of people are sympathetic.


MOORE: But, it is kind of like -- The problem is nobody has done anything about this up to this point. As they said on her show, there is not a school nurse in each school in Flint. There is one school nurse for the school district.


MOORE: Have you ever heard of such a thing.


MOORE: One school nurse for the entire city. You would not know that if the water thing had not happened.


MOORE: But that was there before the water thing happened, right? When they said there is no grocery store in the city of Flint. That was that why before the water crisis. How many other Flints are there in this country that we do not know about, because the media is not covering it, because the people do not have a voice.

Because if you live here, you are poor and black, and you live in Flint or Saginaw or Pontiac or Detroit, Black Michigan, you have no say in this. Your voice is not heard. And, they have been living this existence for a couple three decades now. At the end of "Roger of Me" that movie of mine about Flint comes out in 1989.


MOORE: The very last line in the credit says, "You cannot watch this movie in the city of Flint because all the theaters have closed. There is still no movie theater inside the city of Flint.


MOORE: But, now, I thought back then that was just awful, that there was no movie theater.


MOORE: We are at the point now where there are no grocery stores. No chain stores. You know, there is the little food markets, but not a really -- That is not just Flint. I do not know if there is one in Detroit. I remember this story in Philly, like there is a whole half of Philly does not have a grocery store -- this is going on.

If the people are poor, if they cannot buy candidates and this is where the whole campaign finance thing comes into this too is that when the people do not have a say and because they cannot write checks, then they are forgotten. And, I know we have just a few seconds here, but this -- Flint was forgotten.

It has been forgotten for some time. Only because children got poisoned by a decision that the governor made, now do we know these other things. And, I am here to say, it is not just Flint, Michigan. This is going on across this country. How we have turned this into -- parts of the country are like third world countries.

And, I know you brought me on to talk about my movie and I do not want to talk about the movie tonight. I will come back and -- but one thing I have learned while we have filmed this across a dozen countries is that they do not do that to their own. The one --

O`DONNELL: You went looking in the film for better ideas of doing things in other countries than here. This is one of those glaring examples.

MOORE: It is a glaring example because in other countries -- throughout history people have always done things to diss on other people, right? -- their enemy or whatever.

O`DONNELL: Uh-huh.

MOORE: But one thing societies do not do is do it to themselves and do it to their children, because if you want to have a strong country, you have to be good to your people. We are good to our people. We will let 29 million go without health care even after Obama Care, 29 million, no health care.

I mean why do we tolerate this? We are the richest country on earth and that cover of "Time" magazine this week with the black child on the cover, if you looked at it from a distance, you thought, "Oh, `Time` is doing a story on a third world country." And, you get close and you see it is Flint, Michigan. None of us should be happy about this.

O`DONNELL: None of us are.

MOORE: And, if they can get away with it in Flint, they can get away with it anywhere. And, everybody watching this tonight who lives in the Flint, Michigan of this country, you know it. They know it, Lawrence. And, it is time for people to nonviolently get involved, rise up. Get involved in this election year.

Do not sit and take it. It is our country still. It is the hope that Rachel said at the end of the show. The hope is that. It is still a democracy. Even though, we do not have democracy in Flint. The rest of you do. So, do not leave us alone there. Do not forget the Flints of this country.

O`DONNELL: And Flint shows how precious that is.

MOORE: Yes. And, I am sorry I take so much time.

O`DONNELL: Thank you very, very much for coming in.

MOORE: No. Thank you for having me.

O`DONNELL: I really appreciate it.

MOORE: It means a lot to everybody. Thank you.

O`DONNELL: We will be right back.


O`DONNELL: Yesterday at 4:30 P.M., the FBI in Oregon state and local law enforcement used a roadblock to stop two vehicles carrying Ammon Bundy and other armed militants who had taken over a nearby bird sanctuary. According to law enforcement, one of the vehicles, a pickup truck tried to escape and then got stuck in the snow. And, one man emerged from the truck, quote, "Brandishing a firearm," end quote.

The man was shot and killed by law enforcement. Ammon Bundy and seven others were arrested and charged with the federal felony of, quote, "Conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats."

The man who was killed was LaVoy Finicum. His daughters confirmed his death to NBC News. After an interview, 22 days ago on this program he became known as "Tarp Man," because in that strange interview he was sitting under a tarp with a rifle guarding his group.

LaVoy Finicum then emerged as a spokesman for the Bundy group. He was 55 years old. And, he said he left his Arizona ranch in the hands of his 17- year-old daughter. He was in another standoff with federal authorities two years ago in Nevada with Cliven Bundy, Ammon Bundy`s father.

Today, only after his friend LaVoy Finicum was killed and after he was taken into custody and charged, only then did Ammon Bundy through his lawyer urge all of the armed protesters still at the bird sanctuary to leave peacefully.

Then a little more than an hour ago, the Bundy family posted a notice from Ammon`s wife on Facebook that read, "Ammon would not have called for the patriots to leave. We have lost a life, but we are not backing down. He did not spill his blood in vain. Hold your ground."

That post was just deleted a few minutes ago. If you are -- in a YouTube video released today by the remaining protesters, it is clear that the spirit of LaVoy Finicum unfortunately lives on at the bird sanctuary.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER (1): We have been ordered to leave. That means they are coming to kill us and they do not want you to see that. The are going to murder all of us. American people better wake up. Get here and fight for your country. Right now. It is on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER (2): What you gonna do? What you gonna do when the militia comes after you, FBI?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER (1): If they stop you from getting here, kill them.


O`DONNELL: LaVoy Finicum never specifically said he would kill FBI agents or police officers if they came after him, but he came very, very close to saying that when he spoke to MSNBC`s Tony Dokoupil.


TONY DOKOUPIL, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If they come here and try to arrest you, they point a gun at you, they try to put cuffs on you, how far are you willing to take this?

LAVOY FINICUM, ARMED OREGON PROTESTER: Well, do not point a gun at me. You do not point a gun at somebody unless you are going to shoot them. That is the first thing your thought is do not point guns at people. And, so, I am telling them right now, do not point guns at me.

DOKOUPIL: So, you are prepared to die. Better dead than in a cell.

FINICUM: Absolutely. Would you like to be in a cell? Nobody wants to live their life in a cell.


O`DONNELL: Tony Dokoupil who got to know LaVoy Finicum out there will join us next.


O`DONNELL: Here is LaVoy Finicum talking about law enforcement in an interview with the Oregonian on Monday, the day before he was killed.


FINICUM: They are doing all the things. They are doing all the things that shows that they want to take some kinetic action against us. They do not want to let go of this. They do not intend on losing here. And, we do not intend to giving it back to them.


O`DONNELL: Joining me now, MSNBC National Reporter, Tony Dokoupil. Tony, you made LaVoy Finicum famous there on the night that he was using the tarp. Your reaction to what has happened?

DOKOUPIL: Well, Lawrence, it is hard to say whether or not I am surprised by this or I am not surprised by this. On the one hand, LaVoy Finicum in that interview on your program, came very close to saying dead or alive, you are not going to take me unless you put a bullet in me.

But on the other hand, he seemed quite peaceful. He was sitting in a rocking chair. And, certainly, walked away from that initial conversation thinking that there was no real danger. I, actually, was reminded of a Winston Churchill quote, "There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at without result."

I felt that on the first night, LaVoy Finicum was presenting himself as a person under threat, when in fact no real threat was there. But, clearly, things had progressed and it appears that what he implied in that first conversation he really meant. And, so, I began to think of another line of research.

Before, I started getting T.V. reporting. I wrote a lot about suicide. I was a writer, overall. I did not do any T.V. and I wrote a lot about suicide. And, there is a line of research in suicide that looks at something called the prevision of virtue.

And, that is the moment in a person`s life when they begin to think that their life is worth more valuable in its absence. They are better off dead. They is more value in their death than in their life. And, LaVoy at a certain point, seemed to cross that line? If the reports about his altercations with police at the end are true, it cost him his life in the end.

O`DONNELL: That is such a good point, Tony, analyzing this through the lens of what we know about suicide. Tony Dokoupil, thank you very much for your reporting from Oregon and for joining us again tonight on this. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Tony.

DOKOUPIL: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.