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BREAKING: White House pulls nomination of embattled budget chief pick Neera Tanden

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 11/04/15

Guests: Kay Bailey Hutchison, E.J. Dionne, Steve Jarding, Charlene Gubash,Evan Kohlmann, Michael Kay, Patrick Kennedy

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Latest "Fox News" poll, down at the bottom, you have -- look what this says. The latest "Fox News" poll, down at the bottom, you have Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee at 4 percent, I mean, they should be in, but Chris Christie does not hit 3, he`s only at 2. And when you factor that "Fox News" poll in with the other three latest polls, according to the "Fox Business" criteria, Chris Christie does not make the cut. Now, to be fair, "Fox Business" will not officially announce who`s in the debate until tomorrow night at 7:00. And remember, they`ve --"Fox Business" hasn`t said exactly which polls they`re going to use in this polling average for deciding who qualifies. So, maybe they`ll fudge it, maybe those will be some changes to which polls they`ve decided to use and they`ll find something favorable to Chris Christie to factor it in. You know, maybe they`ll decide that Chris Christie at 2.25 percent is close enough, but it stands right now to the best of our knowledge and the best guess of their methodology that Chris Christie is going to be at the kids table on Tuesday night. Drama. Now, does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD, Alex Wagner is in for Lawrence tonight. ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC: HOST We have breaking news from Egypt about intelligence reports that point to ISIS for the crash of a passenger jet. I`ll ask Senator Lindsey Graham about Donald Trump and why Republican voters are looking for outsiders and why Democrats are looking for voters. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will change the tenor of what happens in the 2016 race. It truly will. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s a movement. People that don`t want to be taken advantage of anywhere -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The election of Tea Party Republican Matt Bevin as governor. TRUMP: I love what happened in Kentucky. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue state, it is now red. (LAUGHTER) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody predicted it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We as a state have the ability to change the tenor of what politics looks like. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another indicator of a strong yearn for outsiders. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jack Conway ran into the unexpected headwinds of Trump- Mania. TRUMP: They gave me a lot of credit for that one. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Losing to an outsider candidate in the year of the outsider. CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: What was the fringe just a year ago is now very electable in the Republican Party. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reflection of the angst among voters. TRUMP: There is something happening, folks. MATTHEWS: Last night`s wild and dramatic upset in Kentucky is a warning shot to the country. BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Fallon, what would you do to fix the deep ideological divide in this country? (LAUGHTER) FALLON: Pizza party. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: The Democratic Party has just gotten a brutal reality check. President Obama may be riding away for political success in his seventh year in office, but down the ballot, Democrats are suffering significant losses. Since 2008, Democrats have lost over 900 state legislature seats, 12 governorships, 69 house seats and 13 Senate seats. Republicans control 70 percent of state legislatures, more than 60 percent of governorships and 55 percent of Attorneys General and secretaries of state. The problem for the left was made especially clear last night, going against both polls and expectations, Republican newcomer Matt Bevin beat Democrat Jack Conway in Kentucky`s gubernatorial race 53 percent to 44 percent. Just over 30 percent of voters turned out to cast a ballot. And by supporting antigay marriage, county clerk Kim Davis and vowing to dismantle the state`s healthcare system, Matt Bevin took 106 out of Kentucky`s 120 counties. Democrat Jack Conway won just 14 of them. Bevin`s conservative message played especially well in the state`s rural counties where in some cases he led with a margin of as much as 60 percent or more. Bevin, who has never held political office before also rode a wave of insurgent excitement, responding to Conway`s loss last night, the Democratic Governor`s Association issued this statement. "Unfortunately, Conway ran into the unexpected headwinds of Trump-Mania, losing to an outsider candidate in the year of the outsider." Here is what Donald Trump had to say about that today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I love what happened in Kentucky -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes! TRUMP: And he`s -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes! TRUMP: He`s a good guy and they gave me a lot of credit for that one. I don`t deserve the credit, but there is something happening, folks, I will tell you. (CHEERS) There is something happening. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Joining us now are Kay Bailey Hutchison, former Republican senator from Texas and senior counsel at the law firm of Bracewell & Giuliani. Steve Jarding, Democratic consultant and professor at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, he is the co-author of "Foxes in the Hen House: How the Republicans Stole the South and the Heartland and What the Democrats Must Do to Run Them Out". And E.J. Dionne, opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and an Msnbc political analyst. Kay, let me start with you in terms of Matt Bevin and I just wonder, does Matt Bevin not owe a debt of gratitude to the Republican establishment? I believe the Republican Governors Association spent $2.5 million on Matt Bevin in the final two weeks, and I wonder if you think they will call for that debt to be paid once he takes office? Kay -- KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: Are you talking to me? WAGNER: Yes, sorry. HUTCHINSON: Oh, I`m sorry, I thought you were talking to E.J. Oh, I think that he came out of nowhere, and I think he did it on his own with grassroots. When you carry 106 out of 120 counties, that`s really a mandate. And I think what happened in Kentucky is what you see happening in little pockets around the country because of the Republican primary itself and the candidates that are the outsiders are on top. And I think there`s -- what Donald Trump said is true, something is happening out there. I haven`t heard a really good explanation for it except that people are sick and tired of government. They don`t think it`s working. They don`t -- they don`t have the jobs that they used to have at the pay scales that they used to have. And I think people are frustrated across the board with Democrats and Republicans, but I think Republicans are talking about the problems with overregulation, over taxation, and the malaise in the economy. WAGNER: E.J., to that end, I mean, everybody is asking what just happened, right? The Republican establishment is asking what just happened and Democrats in large part. I think it feels like we`re having a moment where Democrats are sort of realizing what`s truly been happening in off-year elections and down-ballot elections. Which is to say, the Republicans are trouncing Democrats at the state legislature level and in terms of governorships. And I wonder how much you think that is due to what your paper, "The Washington Post" called the notion of a political thermostat. That when there is a Democrat in the White House, the electorate goes a little bit more conservative and vice versa if there`s a Republican in the White House. E.J. DIONNE, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, that happens sometimes, but it doesn`t always happen that way. I mean, aiming at the heart of it is the nature of the Democratic constituency versus the nature of the Republican constituency. Democrats are younger, they are more African-American and Latino, Republicans are older, predominantly white. And the Democratic vote in much larger numbers in presidential elections than in off-year or off-off year elections. And so all those gains that we hear about are gains the Republicans have made in off-year elections in 2010 and 2014. Now, that doesn`t mean it`s not a big problem for Democrats. They have lost all these seats, they lost control over redistricting, but it`s a very particular problem they got to solve. And on the outsider thing, I think something -- we`re acting as if the outsiderism in the Republican Party and in Republican parts of the country and Kentucky is basically Republican, even though they have elected Republican governors is happening across the whole country. Trump and Carson are getting about half of the 40 percent of people who are Republicans or Republican-leaning independents. That`s 20 percent of the country, it`s a big deal. It doesn`t -- it means something, but I think we should not over generalize of what is happening in particular inside the Republican Party. WAGNER: Well, but Steve, there`s also -- I mean, Maddie Glazier(ph) wrote about this on Vox. There are reasons for this as E.J. points out, off-year elections and I think 39 of 50 states hold off-year elections for governors when turnouts are low. So, that automatically favors Republicans. But there`s also something he points out, this idea of a feedback loop. Which is that, Republicans when in office use those electoral games to strengthen their constituencies and weaken those of the opposition. And that seems to be a sort of long-term effect. It`s not just -- we have our guys in this year and not in two years, this is a sort of systemic change and if you look at the legislation that`s going through state houses across the country, this is the way in which Republicans are truly changing the cultural, social and political landscape in the U.S. STEVE JARDING, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT & PROFESSOR, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Well, I think they are, but I think -- I think it`s an over simplification to say that the (INAUDIBLE) was based on an outsider candidate, I think there was some of that. But the outsider candidate had a ton of money, the outsider candidate in this case has been living in a system where whether it`s the Koch brothers who the American Legislative Exchange Council spending millions of dollars at the state legislative level to try to build grassroots. Democrats have not been doing that, but I would also argue that part of the problem is that Democrats have not taken the fight to the American public. The American public is upset, they should be upset, governments failed them. And yet, you didn`t see in Kentucky, you saw a Republican win by saying I`m going to dismantle healthcare when 20 percent of kids in Kentucky go to bed hungry. When a hundred thousand kids are going to lose their healthcare under this governor. I didn`t see a Democratic candidate fighting for that. They concede family values to the Republicans, I`ll challenge Republicans on family values, and poverty is not a family value, hunger is not a family value. Lack of health insurance is not a family value. The Democrats have to go after these people. Kim Davis says, well, I`m doing what the Bible says -- no, you`re not, you`re doing what the Old Testament says. That, you know, Jesus said in the New Testament 40 times, if you believe, you`re in. But the problem, I think, Alex, is Democrats aren`t making the case. They`re conceding the arguments to Republicans, particularly in rural areas in the south, instead of taking the argument to them. When they`re playing on that turf; on the Republican turf of letting the Republicans define the issues, that`s what happens. So, I don`t disagree with anything that E.J. said here, but I think it`s -- the fundamental problem for the Democrats is much deeper. They`ve got to stand up and start reminding the American public what their programs have been. That when kids in Kentucky are hungry, we`re going to feed them. When this governor-elect wants to get rid of healthcare for 100,000 kids, we`re not going to let that happen. That`s not a family value and yet the Democrats aren`t saying it and they wonder why they lose races. WAGNER: Well, Kay Bailey Hutchison, you mentioned this, there`s the frustration on both sides of the aisle. And if you look at the new "Nbc"-"Wall Street Journal" poll numbers on this, 69 percent of Americans, not Republicans or Democrat-voters, Americans agree with the following statements. "I feel angry because our political system seems to be only working for the insiders with money and power." There is part -- there is bipartisan agreement. And anger seems to be an incredibly animating, motivating factor in this election. Do you think Democrats have harnessed that sense of frustration? HUTCHISON: Well, I think the Democrats have been losing not only in these off election years, but remember in 2014, Republicans took over the Senate. And so now they control Congress, but they don`t have the veto pen. The President certainly has done a lot with his power of course. And I think -- I think the Republicans are talking about why the economy is so bad, why there aren`t jobs, poverty has increased under President Obama. And I think it`s -- I think it`s a factor of why -- I mean -- and you have to say why? And small businesses are the ones that are getting hit the most and are the most concerned and -- I mean, they`re mad because of Obamacare, because of the overregulation, the duplication of regulation, the buildup of government. WAGNER: Right -- HUTCHISON: And they just see that they`re getting nowhere, people see they`re getting nowhere and talking about the middle class, those are the small business people that are getting saddled with all of these extra costs. And so they`re not hiring -- WAGNER: E.J. -- HUTCHISON: People and they`re not -- they`re not gaining. WAGNER: E.J., let me ask you, to that -- to the question of frustration among the left, it feels like there is a robust debate happening, which is why we`re seeing Bernie Sanders popularity. There seems to be a price of progressive left would like to extract from the presumed candidate. Would you agree with that? I mean, do you think there is that anger that is reflected in the poll numbers? DIONNE: I don`t think it`s -- well, I think the anger on the Democratic side is much more against private interests having, you know, rich private interests, having excessive influence in the political system. If you look at Bernie Sanders supporters, they are people who actually believe in government and believe the government can accomplish a lot of things. So, I think it`s a very different sort of anger or as in the Republican side, it`s directed against government as a whole. Just two real quick points on the Senator`s point. I was talking about midterms, not just off off-years, that`s when the turnout goes down and that`s when Democrats lose. And I think Steve is absolutely right. I think Democrats particularly in red states worry about really bringing the fight to the other side because it might make them sound liberal. But talking about keeping people in eastern Kentucky on healthcare, is that doesn`t necessarily have to sound liberal. It just -- it sounds like you are operating in the interest of those folks. So, I think Democrats do need to target rural voters whom they`ve lost in large numbers and actually talk about what they`re going to do for them. WAGNER: Kay Bailey Hutchison, Steve Jarding and E.J. Dionne, thank you all for joining us tonight -- HUTCHISON: I thank you -- DIONNE: Good to be with you -- WAGNER: Coming up -- HUTCHISON: Good to see you, Alex -- WAGNER: My interview with Senator Lindsey Graham, his reaction to Charles Koch and why he disagrees with Koch about U.S. military intervention in the Middle East. And Chris Christie has his biggest breakout moment on the campaign trail yet after getting candid about addiction. Patrick Kennedy is here to react to that. Plus, a new turn in the investigation into a Russian plane that crashed in Egypt over the weekend. Did ISIS bring that plane down with a bomb? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: We have breaking news to report. A new "Fox News" poll finds Donald Trump back on top with 26 percent, followed by Ben Carson at 23 percent, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are now tied for third at 11 percent and Jeb Bush and John Kasich are tied for fifth at 4 percent. Up next, a new report indicates that ISIS may be involved in a crash of a Russian airliner over the weekend, we will get the very latest live from Egypt. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: We`re following breaking news this evening. Unnamed U.S. officials tell "Nbc News" that evidence indicates a bomb likely brought down the plane over Egypt`s Sinai Peninsula, that metro jet crash that killed all 224 people onboard it this Saturday. Russian doctors meanwhile say victims in the back of the plane suffered injuries that are consistent with a bomb. U.S. investigators are focused on the possibility that ISIS operatives or sympathizers were directly involved. The suspicion is that the bomb may have been planted by ground crews or baggage handlers and it is a suspicion apparently shared by the United Kingdom. Today, Britain suspended all flights to and from the airport in Sharm el- Sheikh where the plane took off. These developments are all happening on the same day that the head of the airport security, as well as three chiefs were fired amid the discovery of lax security measures. Hours after the crash, an ISIS affiliate claimed responsibility, but Egyptian and national authorities have dismissed it. Today, the group reiterated its claim but shared no new evidence. American intelligence sources say none of the passengers or crew members were linked to any terrorists networks. Joining us now is Evan Kohlmann, an Msnbc News terrorism analyst and chief of research and development. Officer for Flash Point, Michael Kay; a former military pilot and senior adviser for the U.K. Ministry of Defense who is also a foreign affairs correspondent. And Charlene Gubash joins us on the phone, she is the "Nbc News" Cairo Bureau Chief. Charlene, let me start with you, thank you for being up at this late hour. Can you give us a sense of the safety measures that the Egyptian government has taken in terms of air safety thus far? CHARLENE GUBASH, NBC NEWS CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Well, in terms of the airport in Sharm el-Sheikh, they`ve brought more dogs to the site, more bombs-sniffing dogs, they`re bringing a lot more. They`re even building kennels for them and they`re going to bring bomb- sniffing dogs out on to the tarmac itself, so they can check out the food carts. They can check out the luggage, the plane themselves. They`re bringing in brand-new and modern X-ray machines. They`re going to spread those out throughout the airport. They`re also going -- they`ve also already implemented measures with the ground staff that they have to go through the X-ray machines. Because before when they came in, they only went through the X-ray machines once and they didn`t go back through them when they went back and forth from the tarmac into the building and back out again. And for the policemen, they didn`t have to go through X-ray machines at all, they didn`t -- there were no questions asked and they didn`t have to have any special permissions to be on the tarmac. So, those things are changing and as far as the passengers are concerned, the measures are pretty much the same. With the -- with the ground staff also, they`re making them take off their shoes when they go through the X-ray machines which never happened before. So, a lot has been changing and people there are saying, the airport -- the employers are saying the airport is being turned upside down and though they never know what to expect -- and expect a lot of change to happen there. WAGNER: And then let`s talk about these unnamed officials leaking the idea -- their assessment, we don`t know how independent it is, that a bomb may be -- may have been behind this. There`s been a lot of talk about ISIS` capacity to execute something like this. What`s your -- what`s your thinking on that? EVAN KOHLMANN, MSNBC NEWS TERRORISM ANALYST & CHIEF OF RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT: Well, look, it`s ISIS` affiliate in the Sinai that claimed credit for this. It`s not ISIS main. And their claims are very strange. This audio recording that was put out this morning, what they said is, we are not obliged to tell you how we did this and you prove to us we didn`t do it. You get the black boxes and you prove to us, we dare you. It`s a very strange thing for a group to say if they really did this. The Pakistani Taliban which is hardly known as a technically skilled group. This is a group -- they hardly come from Silicon Valley -- within hours of the failed 2010 Times Square bomb plot. They had pictures of the bomber with the head of their group on YouTube. I mean, this is what we expect from terrorists, because ISIS is the most sophisticated when it comes to using the internet. It`s been days now and there`s been no objective evidence whatsoever from either ISIS central or ISIS in Sinai that they were behind this, other than these audio recordings. So look, are these credible claims? Yes, they`re definitely from ISIS, they`re claiming credit. Is there anything in these claims, in these statements that would authenticate the idea that ISIS was behind this, that this was a bomb plot? No, nothing, zero, nada. So, we`re left with the statements from U.S. officials and with that, we really have to see what they`re based on. What does the forensic evidence actually show and two days into the process -- pardon me for being skeptical, but I`m not sure we`re there yet to make those kind of definitive conclusions. WAGNER: I think one of the things that ramped up speculation about a terrorist attack, Michael, is the fact that the British government has effectively stranded I think 20,000 British tourists who are in Sharm el- Sheikh, which is a popular vacation destination. To do that, to make that decision -- MICHAEL KAY, FORMER MILITARY PILOT & SENIOR ADVISER, U.K. MINISTRY OF DEFENSE & FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes -- WAGNER: One would think they have some kind of evidence. You`ve been to Sharm el-Sheikh. I mean, it is a major destination for European holiday travelers to sort of leave them there in this moment would be some kind of indication of something. KAY: Well, the motives are all there. The motives are Russia and Syria and the Islamic State. And the other motive is by doing or committing an atrocity like this. You`re going to be really hitting hard the Egyptian economy -- the tourist economy. Been to Sharm el-Sheikh twice, in 2010 and 2011. It is a very -- you know, it`s a town which is just risen on the tourist industry. Most of the Egyptians that work there are from Cairo, Alexandria, Luxor, there is no real sort of, you know, community around Sharm el-Sheikh. It`s all based on the tourist industry. But let me just talk a little bit about the U.K. perspective at the moment. As Evan alluded to, you know, a board of inquiries have been convened for 72 hours now. And usually Pan Am 103 is a fantastic case study that took a year to understand that it was a bit of sent up -- the explosive in a Toshiba radio cassette in the front hold of the cargo. It exploded at 31,000 feet. And it covered a debris field of 130 kilometers. And a bit of analysis that I find interesting in this is that, this jet was also at 31,000 feet, the debris field was 8 kilometers. MH-17 was hit by a radar-guided missile and it`s only radar-guided missiles that can take out airlines that`s above 20,000 feet. MANPADS, the shoulder-launched missiles, they cannot, which ISIS have. ISIS do not have the track for the radar-guided missiles. So, when it comes to the ability to do that, ISIS don`t have the ability to do that. The MH-17 was spread over 50 kilometers and that was a proximity fused by the cockpit. So, the big -- the big question mark I have over this is that, if it was an explosive device of some sort and it did explode at 31,000 feet, then why isn`t the debris field larger? And that is the bit that isn`t actually adding up at the moment. WAGNER: And then how confident are you that we`re going to get transparency from the Russians who are doing a lot of the investigation here? -- KOHLMANN: Oh, it`s very difficult to understand that right now. The Russians have so many different motivations wrapped up in this. The last thing that they want to do is admit that ISIS was involved in this. I think that`s part of the problem -- is that any kind of a reporting or a suggestion about who was responsible or what was responsible without some kind of definitive evidence, we risk muddying the waters here. And there`s a lot of people here who stand the benefit from muddying the waters. Russia really does not want to admit ISIS brought down a plane with 200-plus of their citizens onboard. That would be terrible propaganda for them. It will be great propaganda -- WAGNER: Well -- KOHLMANN: For ISIS -- WAGNER: And one would assume it would result in a Russian escalation in Syria. KAY: I mean potentially. But the only question mark as well I would raise is that -- is that the U.K. government wouldn`t have put itself out on a limb well before the board of inquiry convened. If it didn`t have some -- WAGNER: Something -- KAY: Sort of intelligence to suggest that the safety and security of U.K. passengers was in some way at risk. And so I think we`ve got to, you know, weeks out here right now, we don`t know what that intelligence is -- KOHLMANN: Right KAY: But there`s something out there which we don`t know about. WAGNER: It is a developing situation, obviously a fluid one. Charlene Gubash, Evan Kohlmann and Michael Kay, thank you guys all for your time. KAY: Thank you. WAGNER: Coming up, Senator Lindsey Graham weighs in on the latest developments in the metro jet crash and what he says should be a wake-up call for Vladimir Putin. And later, Patrick Kennedy is here to discuss Chris Christie`s personal emotional stories about how we deal with addiction in America. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: A new poll today out of New Hampshire shows Donald Trump in the lead with 18 percent and Ben Carson at Trump`s heel with 15 percent. Marco Rubio stands at 9 percent, John Kasich is at 8 percent. Jeb Bush and Chris Christie are each at 7 percent. And, on the other end, Lindsey Graham, Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum are all at 0 percent. I spoke to Senator Graham about that and much more earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Senator, the latest polling from WBUR shows Donald Trump and Ben Carson at the top, which is reflected in a lot of national polls as well. And, I guess I wonder, what do you think is happening there in New Hampshire and what are the responses to you, an insider in what some people are calling the season of outsiders. SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, if you look at polls in 2008 and 2012, the people leading at this particular point in time never made it. There is frustration out there with the political system. I totally get that. Washington is broken. But, I would suggest I am more of a solution than the problem, but National Security has kind of become more of an issue, because the world is literally falling apart. So, my hope is, my belief is that by coming to New Hampshire a lot, "John McCain helping me, meeting people in town halls and house parties that I can convey a message that I am better prepared to be Commander-in-Chief than anyone running. And, I have a plan to destroy ISIL and a desire to work with democrats to get us out of debt. And, New Hampshire will look at really close at all of us. You cannot buy New Hampshire. So, if I am going to break through, it will be here in New Hampshire, and I like my chances. WAGNER: Senator, I want to talk a little bit about that dichotomy, outsider versus inside and specifically -- GRAHAM: Yes. OK. WAGNER: -- the results in Kentucky last night. Matt Bevin has positioned hymn as an outsider. GRAHAM: Uh-huh. WAGNER: He went after Mitch McConnell in 2014. I wonder if you think you can stay an outsider once you are actually inside. You know, Matt Bevin has already started hedging -- (LAUGHING) GRAHAM: Yes. That is a good question. WAGNER: I mean he started hedging a little bit on his pledge -- GRAHAM: Yes. WAGNER: -- to get rid of Kynect and the exchanges. GRAHAM: Yes. WAGNER: -- and the Medicaid expansion. GRAHAM: Right. WAGNER: Do you think he remains this insurgent once he is in the governor`s seat? GRAHAM: I thought it was pretty interesting that he called on Mitch McConnell to help him and Mitch said, yes. WAGNER: Yes. GRAHAM: Mitch came to Mr. Bevin`s aid at the end. We are a team. The Tea Party has many similar views of the government that I do in terms of making it limited, trying to reduce the size and scope of the government. We definitely have real differences. But, you know, when you run for office and you get the job, it is like the dog that caught the car. You are going to realize if there are other people on the other side of the aisle. And, I hope Mr. Bevin will govern Kentucky in a good fashion. He has my support. I will try to help in any way I can. But the difference between talking about government and governing is really different. And, you know that when you get these jobs. WAGNER: Do you think he will actually shut down the Kentucky healthcare exchange and repeal the Medicaid expansion? GRAHAM: You know, I really do not know. WAGNER: Let us talk about ISIS. Because we are getting reports today that they may have had a bomb placed in the Russian Airliner that was taken down over the Sinai Peninsula. Do you think given all of your foreign policy expertise, that this could change Vladimir Putin`s calculation about what he is doing in Syria? GRAHAM: It should. See, I think it is ISIL against mankind. They want to kill every Muslim who disagrees. They want to purify their faith. Destroy the Christian religion in the Mid East. They are on the way to doing that. Destroy Israel and come after us, the infidels, Russia and America, anybody disagrees with them outside of their faith. So, my condolences to the Russian families, who lost their loved ones. But, you got to understand this about ISIL. Their desire to kill is only limited by their capability to kill. They have, apparently, if this is true, a sophisticated network to get a bomb on an airplane, to penetrate defenses. I hope this is a wake-up call to Putin and the world at large, that ISIL has to be destroyed. President Obama got the right goal to destroy, he just does not have the right strategy. WAGNER: Senator, I know you favor much more of robust intervention in certain parts of the Middle East. I want to play a little bit of sound interview that Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski had with Charles Koch the other day, wherein he weighed in on his opinion regarding military intervention. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLES KOCH, REPUBLICAN MEGA DONOR: We keep kicking out dictators and then we do not get anything better and we mess up a lot of people`s lives in the process and spend fortunes and have many Americans killed and maimed. It is kind of like my support for some of these republican candidates. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Were you dismayed to hear Charles Koch say that? GRAHAM: No, not really. He is more of a libertarian. I wish he would help me. I am trying to be a republican that would change things. But, here is my reply to Mr. Koch, who is a fine man, who has employed a lot of Americans. This is a religious war. We have not brought this upon ourselves. On September 10th, the day before 9/11/2001, we did not have one soldier in Afghanistan, we did not have an embassy, we did not have a dime of aid. The reason they hit us is because they are compelled by their religion to destroy our religion, to purify their faith and destroy the state of Israel. It is not because we are in Syria or Iraq or Libya. We were attack before we went into Iraq. If you do not understand that these people are motivated by their religion to create a master religion and they are intent on imposing their will on the rest of us, you do not get the war. WAGNER: Senator, but would you concede that the American people are skeptical of putting more American soldiers in harm`s way in the Middle East? I mean even Charles -- GRAHAM: No. WAGNER: No. You would not. GRAHAM: I think if you ask the average American, do you believe ISIL will hit us if we do not hit them? Do you believe as part of their agenda they will not attack the United States? That is what al-Baghdadi told the American Colonel and turn them over to Iraqis, I will see you in New York. I think the average American believes that radical Islam needs to be stopped over there before they come here. And, if you could show them a plan that would work, 50 special forces are not going to change the tide of battle. What would I do? I will train Syrians, having no-fly zone to give them a place to train, a place where refugees could go without being murdered. I would get the region together, the Arabs in Turkey who hate ISIL as much as we do. I would use their army. I will put some of our forces in their army to make sure we destroy ISIL. I go underground and I destroy these guys. They are about 30,000, 40,000. So, they are going to need a fairly good-sized army. I think most Americans would support America joining with the region to destroy ISIL, if you could explain to them how to succeed. WAGNER: Senator Graham, on that note, you are one of only candidates in the republican field who articulated an explicit plan to combat radical terrorist. GRAHAM: Yes. Yes. WAGNER: Regardless of whether anybody -- regardless whether I or other people agree with you, you are actually saying it. And, yet, the polling comes out this week, showing that the majority of republican voters trust Donald Trump and Ben Carson with the nuclear codes. And, I wonder what was your reaction to that? (LAUGHING) GRAHAM: Well, you know, Herman Cain was leading at one point in time. There is frustration out there. These two -- WAGNER: But not for this long, Senator. Not for this long. GRAHAM: No. Well, you know, look at who was leading on this date in 2008 and 2012. Here is my point. I think the more we get focused on national security, the more my voice will resonate. I have been to Iraq and Afghanistan 35 times, 33 years in the air force. I have really done my homework here. I think my ideas will make more sense the closer we get to the election. Ben Carson is a fine man. I just do not understand where he is coming from on foreign policy. And, if Mr. Trump`s view of Syria is to just turn it over to the Russians and Iranians. That is a bad idea. The bottom line is it is not just enough to criticize President Obama. What would you do differently. I would have a robust ground component made up of Syrians, regional armies and some Americans to destroy ISIL without a ground component. It will not work. You need somebody on the ground and the Syrians by themselves cannot do this. WAGNER: Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you as always for your time. Best of luck with the next round of debate. We hope to see you on the main stage sometime soon. (LAUGHING) GRAHAM: Me, too. Thank you. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Up next, Chris Christie`s personal side has gone viral. And, movie director Quentin Tarantino says he is not intimidated by police boycotting his movies. He will not apologize, but he does have a message he wants you to hear. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: In the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, Chris Christie is in a four-way tie for sixth place with Carly Fiorina, John Kasich and Mike Huckabee. All of whom have received 3 percent. For Governor Christie, that is actually a two-point increase since the time -- the last time the poll was taken. Arguably, an increase thanks to his debate performance last week. But Christie`s biggest breakout moment yet may have happened off the debate stage and on the campaign trail in New Hampshire. A few days ago, the "Huffington Post" posted an outtake from an episode of its web series "16 and President". And, that video has exploded online with more than 3 million Facebook views. In it, Governor Christie talks candidly and personally about drug addiction. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R-NJ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My mother was a smoker. She smoked her life. She was addicted to nicotine. She started when she was 16 years old, which was 1948. But, by the time 1964 came -- the surgeon general`s report came out and she was in her 30s, she knew that smoking was bad for you. And, I will tell you, I watched her as a kid growing up. She tried everything she could to quit. She had the gum, the patches, the hypnosis, she has tried everything. She could not quit. Now, when she turned 71, a little after that, she was diagnosed with lung cancer. No one came to me and said, "Do not treat her, because she got what she deserved." Somehow, if it is heroin or cocaine or alcohol, we say, "Well, they decided, they are getting what they deserved." I am pro life, and I think that if you are pro life, that means you got to be pro life for the whole life. Not just for the nine months they are in womb, all right? It is easy. It is easy to be pro life for the nine months they are in the womb. They have not done anything to disappoint us yet. They are perfect in there. But, when they get out, that is when it gets tough. The 16-year-old teenage girl on the floor of county lock-up addicted to heroin, I am pro life for her, too. Her life is just as much a precious gift from God as the one in the womb. And, we need to start thinking that way as a party and as a people. And, the president needs to say those things. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Up next, former Congressman Patrick Kennedy talks about his push to get all of the 2016 candidates to talk about our nation`s drug abuse epidemic. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. CHRISTIE: We need to start treating people in this country, not jailing them. We need to give them the tools they need to recover because every life is precious. Every life is an individual gift from God. And, we have to stop judging and start giving them the tools they need to get better. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Joining us now is Patrick Kennedy, a former Democratic Congressman from Rhode Island, the founder of the Kennedy Forum and the author of "The New York Times" Bestseller, "A Common Struggle: A Personal Journey Through The Past and Future of Mental Illness and Addiction." Patrick, thanks for joining me. I just want to first get to the video of governor Christie. As someone who struggled with addiction, what do you find particularly resonant about that? PATRICK KENNEDY (D), FMR. RHODE ISLAND CONGRESSMAN: Well, to average 23 million Americans who are in recovery, they are going to rush out, if they are in a Republican primary, they are going to vote for Chris Christie. This has a powerful political constituency that is not measured by any poll. I only hope that my fellow democrats can speak as passionately and as articulately as Governor Chris Christie just did. He is absolutely right. We need to hear this from the President of the United States. We cannot hear the president talk about supply demand, when this is about a disease. Governor Christie is right. This needs to be treated like all other diseases, and we actually have the tools that he is talking about to treat these diseases. What we cannot do, like Governor Christie said, is wait until they become stage 4 illnesses, which we would never allow if it was cancer. You would not wait for it to become stage 4 cancer or diabetes. You would treat it early. But addiction and mental illness, we routinely as a nation wait until someone is in crisis before our medical system responds. And, that my friend is too late, a chance for us to make a difference in saving people`s lives. That is why suicide right now is almost triple what homicide is. That is why overdoses today surpass car accidents. This is a public health epidemic and Governor Christie put a face on it, and he articulated this in a human way. That is exactly the way we need our national leaders to articulate this issue. WAGNER: I think a lot of people do not understand the scope of this problem. There was a landmark study that came out this week, showing just how broad the epidemic is. One -- especially among non-college educated whites between the ages of 45 and 54. And "The New York Times" coverage of this epidemic, the only comparison that some doctors can offer is that of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Most Americans, I think, are unaware of just how pervasive the issue of addiction, especially to opiates actually is, Patrick. KENNEDY: This -- Alex, you are absolutely right. This study that was cited is a powerful study, because it just reemphasizes what we already know to be the case. We have an epidemic. You know, every other indices are going down, cancer rates, cardiovascular disease, homicides. Suicide is going up. Overdoses are going up. This is a public health epidemic. We need to have a response. And, this is a bipartisan issue. Everybody cares about this. That is why in New Hampshire next week, we are going to launch the now campaign.org of republicans and democrats coming together to support candidates on the right like Governor Christie, and to support candidates on the left, who articulate this position, that this is something we need national leadership to deal with. WAGNER: To that end, WMUR Granite State Poll finds that drug abuse is the number one issue most important to New Hampshire voters. And. given the candidates in the 2016 field, you mentioned, of course, Governor Christie, but what do you think of Hillary Clinton on the other side of aisles, who have launched -- announced a $10 billion plan to treat the epidemic? KENNEDY: Well, Hillary Clinton has always been about prevention. Her whole focus in early childhood is really where we ultimately need to be. So, I absolutely salute what Hillary Clinton has proposed. In fact, she is one of the few candidates to actually have a comprehensive proposal. Most of these presidential candidates do not have a kind of substantive policy proposals that Hillary has. But, frankly, we need to hear from all candidates. And, our country needs to hear from their senatorial candidates, gubernatorial candidates, congressional candidates. We need to hear from anyone who wants to be a public office holder, that this is an important issue. So, that we change this stigma and we come out of the shadows of treating this as a moral problem, and instead start to treat it as the medical epidemic that it is. WAGNER: And, indeed, if there is a time to discuss it, it is now. Patrick Kennedy, thank you so much for your time. KENNEDY: Thank you, Alex. WAGNER: Coming up, Quentin Tarantino`s exclusive interview with MSNBC tonight. He further explains his remarks on police brutality and why a police boycott is not intimidating him. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) WAGNER: This Friday night, the Democratic Presidential Candidates will come together for the first in the South Presidential Candidates Forum. Moderated by our very own Rachel Maddow. Join us here on MSNBC on November 6th. Set your T.V., starting at 8:00 P.M. Eastern to see Rachel`s discussion with Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and Martin O`Malley. Coming up next, Hollywood filmmaker, Quentin Tarantino, faces a nationwide police boycott and he refuses to back down. It is an MSNBC exclusive. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) QUENTIN TARANTINO, HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKER: I am a human being with a conscience. And, when I see murder, I cannot stand by and I have to call the murdered, the murdered, and I have to call the murderers, the murderers. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: Quentin Tarantino made those comments at a protest against police brutality 11 days ago. Since then, police groups across the country have called for a boycott of his next film, and police officials have criticized him. According to NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton, there are no words to describe the contempt I have for him. But, Tarantino is standing by those remarks telling the "Los Angeles Times" yesterday that he is not backing down. Tonight, he spoke to Chris Hayes in an exclusive interview. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES": Were you surprised by the, frankly, the vitriol with which they have responded to those comments? TARANTINO: Yes. Well, I was surprised. I was under the impression I was an American and that I had first amendment rights and there was no problem with me going to an anti-police brutality protest and speaking my mind. And, just because I was at an anti-police brutality protest, does not mean I am anti-police. And, basically, you know, there was a lot of people at that rally, and we were all crying for -- we were crying for a lot of things. But, there was one thing in particular, which was stop shooting unarmed people. We want justice, now stop shooting unarmed people. But, they do not want to deal with that. They would rather start arguments with celebrities than examine the concerns put before them by a citizenry that has lost trust in them. I am not a cop hater, but that is the way they attack me, is calling me a cop hater. That is the way the Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clark, who was on Fox all the time says that I am putting police in danger by standing up for the rights of unarmed citizens, who have been killed by the police. But, at the same time, they say that about anybody who acknowledges that there is a problem in law enforcement in this country right now, is considered by law enforcement part of the problem, whether that be me, whether that be Bill De Blasio, whether that be President Barack Obama. (END VIDEO CLIP) WAGNER: That does it for us tonight. You can watch Chris Hayes` full interview with Quentin Tarantino up next on "ALL IN". END