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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 10/27/15

Guests: Matt Schlapp, Joy Reid, Austan Goolsbee, Maria Teresa Kumar, PaulRyan, Stephen Benjamin, Marq Claxton

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow. Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell. Good evening Lawrence. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Rachel, Denny Hastert`s fall from grace may be the greatest one we have seen in recent memory. I can`t think of anything worse that`s happened to him -- MADDOW: Yes, speaker of the house has been a little bit star-crossed -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- MADDOW: In modern -- in modern times. But his fall from grace, especially after kind of a spotless record is Shakespearean -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- MADDOW: In its dimensions -- O`DONNELL: It`s amazing. MADDOW: Yes, thanks Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Thank you very much, Rachel. MADDOW: Thanks -- O`DONNELL: Well, Donald Trump went to Iowa tonight in a desperate -- and I mean desperate attempt to get his poll numbers up. He actually asked his audience, not so much to vote for him but to simply, please, get his poll numbers up. That`s how much he hates this being number two thing. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: You know how crazy this election is? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ben Carson now leading the Republican field nationally. DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & PRESIDENT, THE TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS & FOUNDER, TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: What the hell are you people doing to me? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m about had it with these people -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s the fist time since July that Donald Trump has not led. TRUMP: Iowa, will you get your numbers up, please? KASICH: Give them hell, Donald! I am sick and tired of listening to this nonsense. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Comes ahead of tomorrow night`s big third Republican debate. JOHN FALLON, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: Well, we`re going to have fun tomorrow night, it will take place in Colorado, which will get weird when stoners see Ben Carson speak, they`re like -- what`s he smoking? That`s -- (LAUGHTER) KASICH: What has happened to the conservative movement? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tomorrow is going to be a make it or break it in many ways for Jeb Bush. JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: Jeb is launching what he calls the Jeb can fix it tour. Fix what? Fix the election because that might be his only hope. (LAUGHTER) KASICH: What has happened to our party? (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Donald Trump doesn`t get it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I don`t get it. I`m going there actually today and I have, you know, tremendous crowds and tremendous love in the room. And, you know, we seem to have hit a chord, but some of these polls coming out, I don`t quite get it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Donald Trump rushed to Iowa today to undo the damage seen in the latest polls there, all of which show him running second to Ben Carson. But today, Donald Trump got much worse news in the first national poll showing him trailing Ben Carson. Ben Carson is at 26 percent, Donald Trump is at 22 percent, Marco Rubio is at 8 percent, Jeb Bush, Carly Fiorina, both at 7 percent. The margin of error for this poll is a big one, it`s 6. And a new South Carolina poll shows Donald Trump`s lead shrinking there. Donald Trump is at 23 percent, Ben Carson right behind him at 19 percent. Now, with the four-point margin of error in that poll, that means that they might actually be tied there now. Marco Rubio is at 9 percent in that South Carolina poll, Ted Cruz at 8 percent, Jeb Bush at 7 percent. In Iowa tonight, Donald Trump begged, I mean, begged his audience to get his poll numbers up. The rudest candidate in the campaign actually said please. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: A little shake-up in Iowa, I don`t know what`s going on. We fell a little behind in Iowa, and some people are saying, how can it be? Iowa, will you get your numbers up, please? (APPLAUSE) Will you get these numbers up? By the way, before I forget, will you get the numbers up, Iowa, please? This is ridiculous. I mean, what is my competition? In all fairness -- in all fair -- what? What is my competition? Do you think these guys -- I`m not going to say Carson -- (LAUGHTER) I`m not going to say Rubio, who really is way down. I mean, I am second, it`s not like terrible. But I don`t like being second, second is terrible to me. Iowa, what the hell are you people doing to me? (LAUGHTER) You know? I hate to say it, but the last long number of elections on the Republican circuit, the person that won Iowa did not get the nomination. Please do me a favor, let me win Iowa. I refuse to say, get your asses in gear, I will not say that. (LAUGHTER) I will not say it. I will not say it because I don`t want to use anything that`s even a little bit off. So, will you please do me a favor and work with my people and go out on February 1st and vote and give us a victory? Going to work harder in Iowa. I`m not leaving Iowa. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right! TRUMP: I`m not leaving Iowa. (APPLAUSE) Now, if I lose Iowa, I will never speak to you people again, that I can tell you. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Maria Teresa Kumar, President and CEO of Voto Latino and host of "CHANGING AMERICA" on shift by Msnbc. Austan Goolsbee, former Chair of the Council of Economic Advisors for President Obama, he`s currently a professor of economics at the University of Chicago. Joy Reid, Msnbc national correspondent. And joining us by phone, Matt Schlapp, Chairman of the American Conservative Union and a former White House Political Director for President Bush. Matt Schlapp, so, no one apparently has told Jeb Bush that what he needs to do is say to Iowa and New Hampshire voters, will you get these poll numbers up, please? That is apparently what you do when your poll numbers go down. Trump is showing you how to get them up, just go and ask for it. MATT SCHLAPP, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE UNION: You know, it`s a common strategy, just plead. That -- (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: Yes -- SCHLAPP: Can often result in good things. You know, what`s interesting about Donald Trump is, almost every political adviser tells their candidate, please. Please, for the love of God, don`t talk about polls. And of course, Donald Trump talked about polls, poll after poll after poll when he was leading all these polls. And now when the news is not quite as rosy, you know, it`s hard to listen to. O`DONNELL: Well, Joy Reid, what is he supposed to talk about, tax policy? He doesn`t know anything -- JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right -- O`DONNELL: Other than what are the latest polls? And, you know, he`d be such a dream for a psychiatrist because he`s so transparent. You know -- REID: Yes -- O`DONNELL: It`s like you don`t have to ask him what he`s upset about today -- REID: Yes -- O`DONNELL: It`s the polls. REID: It`s on his Twitter feed -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- REID: Like everything he seems to feel -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- REID: Little there, Twitter feed. O`DONNELL: Right -- REID: And it`s interesting, yes, because Donald Trump was the insult candidate, right? Where, basically what he did was insult all the other candidates for saying anything about him when he was on top. And now that Ben Carson is on top, the trick for Donald Trump is that he can`t attack Ben Carson because the two of them are really feeding from a similar strain of outsider sort of desire for outsider candidates. If you add up their poll numbers which everyone is number one and which everyone is number two, they are combined at between 42 and 48, 49 percent in the polls. So, they`re sort of feeding from a similar bloodstream. The problem for Donald Trump is that the 20 or so percent that is for Carson is a lot more genuine to what Iowa primary caucus voters are really like -- very evangelical. So, it`s a much more Ben Carson state than it is a Donald Trump state. O`DONNELL: Well, speaking of the evangelicals, Donald Trump talked about that tonight and he issued an ominous warning to the rest of the candidates about the evangelical vote. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I don`t want to skip Iowa. I think we`re going to do well. I think we`re going to do great with the evangelicals. I think a lot of things are going to come out over the next period of time that are not going to be so good for opponents, honestly. And I think I`m going to do great with the evangelicals. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Austan Goolsbee, I want to point out, he did use the word honestly in that sentence, so it must be true. This warning that something is going to come out that`s not good for the opponents. What could that be? AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: Well, you know, the -- who -- he -- I`m sure he would dream it up. And like any bully, he`s got this ability -- MARIA TERESA KUMAR, PRESIDENT, VOTO LATINO: He`s probably trailed by two - - O`DONNELL: Target in on things that actually are weaknesses. You know, he started the mantra that Jeb was low energy and then that led Jeb to try to prove he wasn`t low energy and then he kind of shot himself in the foot. I will give Don credit, he was a little self-deprecating there in a way in his speeches and funny in a way that I hadn`t seen him before. But I think it was a terrible mistake to really kind of go after Ben Carson`s religion. Iowa is a state that`s notoriously difficult to poll for, because the Iowa caucus is not really like a primary at all. You got people going down there and you`re allowed to persuade each other and try to get them on board with your candidate. And I think that was a really bad error. O`DONNELL: Yes, and Maria Teresa, it was such a gift to Carson because he knew exactly how to play it. He knows what his religious audience wants to hear. He just said, he wouldn`t even dignify it with a comment. KUMAR: Right, and I think that Donald Trump is actually basically falling into the old Donald Trump where he`s talking way too much and the other candidates are kind of like basically walking past him and saying OK, let`s see how far you tumble. And what`s interesting though is that, watching that piece that we just saw, I can`t imagine any American voter sleeping soundly at night if he were in the White House. Knowing that he literally has a finger next to the red button at any minute. Why would you -- I mean, it`s just really hard to fathom. I think it`s clearly that he is building crowds and momentum, but it`s because people would just want to see his shtick. They want to have access to this caricature show that he`s created for the presidential bid. What you`re missing is basically, a real reality show that he`s basically signed on the dotted line. Instead he has the news media feeding exactly what folks would like to aspire to be when it comes to a reality TV show for the presidential race. O`DONNELL: And when these guys talk about policy, they get themselves in even more trouble. Let`s listen to Ben Carson talking about Medicare with Chuck Todd on Sunday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Christie ever gets to the White House, we hope he never gets close to it -- (APPLAUSE) But if he does, the New Jersey bully says he`s coming to Colorado to make you guys behave. I think he ought to keep his caucus back in New Jersey. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That -- you know, Ben Carson doesn`t talk like that. That`s -- I don`t know who that was. So, anyway, Ben Carson is in favor -- the control room will get to these tapes whenever it feels like it. But Joy, Ben Carson is talking about replacing Medicare, just getting rid of it, letting people kind of fend for themselves in a much freer system. Now that, of course, is the road to absolute total wipeout defeat. REID: Yes, absolutely, because who are the most reliable voters? Older people, retired people. And this is a medical doctor, essentially. And remember, there are a lot of people in the medical establishment who do not like the Medicare and Medicaid entitlements. They feel they`re more cumbersome, it obviously would be better for their bottom line if everybody was coming in with straight-ahead insurance or a lot of billing issues and whether or not you can make as much money. So, I think he`s speaking for many in the medical establishment by the way who are very much against the Affordable Care Act, too. But it is really not a smart strategy if you want actual voters. Because senior citizens are so much -- they`re so reliable in terms of voters, and they really do vote to guard Medicare and Social Security, explicitly so. O`DONNELL: And Austan Goolsbee, imagine a campaign, a general election campaign with the Republican going into Florida saying, I just want to get rid of Medicare and I have this other idea that it is not all that easy to explain that I`m going to put in there in its place. GOOLSBEE: Yes, I mean, it`s bonkers. The thing is, let`s be realistic. The only reason that Ben Carson is number one in the polls in the Republican primary is most of the Republican electorate has yet to know anything that he has actually stand for. They like that he is a nice man, he has a calm demeanor, a lot of evangelicals like that he is religious, but as soon as you start finding out what the people are actually for, that`s going to be extremely unpopular among Republican voters. They`re not for getting rid of Medicare -- SCHLAPP: Well, hey, Lawrence -- GOOLSBEE: And so -- O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Matt -- (CROSSTALK) Go ahead, Matt -- SCHLAPP: You know, the other thing -- let`s just remember, let`s be candid about this and the real clear politics average. Ben Carson has been beating Hillary Clinton. So, it isn`t just a Republican question, this is an American question. And Americans are definitely opened to the concept of a different type of candidate. Which is why on the Democratic side, you have this huge ground swell for Bernie Sanders. And on the Republican side, in the latest poll that came out in Iowa, 60 percent of Republican voters are saying, I want to try a new type of candidate. And I think there`s a lot to that in the American electorate. O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to have to take a break right there. Matt Schlapp, thank you very much for joining us. Coming up, John Kasich thinks that his Republican frontrunners are crazy. And bankers for Bernie -- that`s right. There are Wall Street investment bankers who are supporting Bernie Sanders for president, and one of them will join me. And later, the Richland County sheriff and the mayor of Columbia, South Carolina will join us to react to the latest in the investigation of an officer`s action in that high school classroom. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: In 2012, newly elected Kansas Republican Governor Sam Brownback said on Msnbc that his tax cut plan or rather radical tax plan would be, "a real live experiment of conservative economics." Today, a new poll found that 61 percent in Kansas called Brownback`s plan a failure and only 7 percent said it was a success. Governor Brownback`s approval rating is 18 percent in Kansas. Up next, the Republican establishment candidates are all kind of angry now at who these frontrunners are. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KASICH: Do you know how crazy this election is? (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: John Kasich, who`s tied for sixth in the latest national poll of the Republican field is angry. He is very angry about who is running first and second. He`s had about all he can take of the Trump-Carson contest for who knows less about government. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KASICH: Do you know how crazy this election is? (LAUGHTER) Let me tell you something. I`m about had it with these people. (LAUGHTER) And let me tell you why? We got one candidate that says that we ought to abolish Medicaid and Medicare. You ever heard of anything so crazy as that? Telling our people in this country who are seniors or about to be seniors that we`re going to abolish Medicaid and Medicare? We`ve got one person saying we ought to have a 10 percent flat tax that will drive up the deficit in this country by trillions of dollars that my daughters will spend the rest of their lives having to pay off. You know, what I say to them is, why don`t we have no taxes, just get rid of them all and then a chicken in every pot on top of it. We got one guy that says we ought to take 10 million or 11 million people and pick them up, where -- I don`t know where we`re going to go -- in their homes? In their apartments? We`re going to pick them up and we`re going to take them to the border and scream at them to get out of our country? I mean, that`s just -- that`s just crazy. That is just crazy. We got people proposing healthcare reform that`s going to leave, I believe, millions of people without adequate health insurance. What has happened to our party? What has happened to the conservative movement? (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Back with us, Maria Teresa Kumar, Austan Goolsbee and Joy Reid -- very good question, Joy, what has happened to the Republican Party? REID: Well, my question is, where has John Kasich been, for like the last 30 years? He -- O`DONNELL: He -- REID: Described each of those positions as being held by one guy apiece. There`s an entire wing of his -- of the base`s party that wants a flat tax and he says so on right-wing talk radio every day. As far as changing Medicare and Medicaid, there are 247 or so house members, Republican members who voted every year for the Ryan budget which would turn Medicare into a voucher, into a coupon, essentially. And they voted for that year after year after year. Some of these ideas -- most of them have been swirling around the Republican base for years, if not for decades. It`s just that now each of them has a candidate to represent their views. O`DONNELL: And Maria Teresa, as we`ve seen in this Republican primary electorate, massive numbers of them, 50 percent maybe, firmly believe that you should get rid of every undocumented person in this country, 11 million, whatever that number is, and you should spend every day trying. You should never give up, no matter how many people tell you, it can`t be done. KUMAR: Right. And so, what if you basically bankrupt Homeland Security while you`re at it and you bankrupt our economy -- big deal. No, but I think what -- Kasie is actually -- he`s on to something. He recognizes that he is speaking not only to the Republican base, but also increasingly to the independents. He is going and talking to folks and basically saying, look, I don`t have the -- I don`t have the baggage that Jeb Bush has. I mean, one of the -- my favorite lines was like, you know, he`s Vito Corleone, basically saying, he`s like -- I`m not that, I know how to negotiate with the opposite party so that we could actually move steps forward. He`s going after every single candidate, making the case of I am, yes, an establishment candidate, but at the same time, I know how to govern, I know how to move forward. And he`s also basically taking a shot over folks that basically want to deport everybody, and he`s saying, look, whether you like it or not, we need that Latino vote. Today, you`ve had 12 Latino conservative organizations saying I am not going to stand next to you as a GOP candidate if you keep basically bringing down the baggage on the shoulders of American Latinos. That`s a huge statement. These were not progressive organizations. These are Republican GOP Latinos that were saying, we will not stand next to you. Kasich is smart. He knows that the road to the White House is cobbling together these different groups of conservative voters, and that he needs in order to get to the White House. O`DONNELL: And Austan Goolsbee, as far as being shocked about a 10 percent flat tax, I think a trick question to Republicans tomorrow night would be, what is the lowest possible income tax that we can have? And it may be even ask, how many of them think we can run the government on zero income tax? Ask for a show of hands on that, you might see ten go up. GOOLSBEE: Look, I mean, they were against evolution, they -- (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: Yes -- GOOLSBEE: And I have no doubt they would say that. O`DONNELL: Yes -- GOOLSBEE: I mean, what you saw there from Kasich is exactly why you`ve seen a massive fraction of centrist Republicans cease calling themselves Republicans and start referring to themselves as independents. And yet at the same time, it`s like that old "Saturday Night Live" skit where everybody is getting off the airplane and they`re trying to say something to the flight attendant, and the flight attendant just says bye- bye. As Kasie was saying that, he is killing his chances to get the nomination. They don`t go to -- he`s telling them, do you know how crazy people are to propose these things? To propose a 10 percent tax? Half the party is for that. So they don`t consider it crazy. O`DONNELL: Yes, Joy -- I mean, the -- what he`s saying is something he should be saying in the back room with his team. REID: Yes -- O`DONNELL: And then saying, given that the nuts out there believe this, and I have to get their votes, what do I say? REID: Yes -- O`DONNELL: You know, but that isn`t what you say. REID: You`re right, because part of the revolution that produced Donald Trump is really a revolt against the donor class and the establishment of the party who says to them, not that explicitly. But who says to the base of the party, you are wrong, if not crazy, to want to deport everyone. And you assume that every Latino is an unlawful migrant -- if you want to deport them all, you are wrong and you are crazy to want to abolish all entitlements. Because in your mind, you think only black people use them. And being told that they`re wrong and crazy to want these things -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- REID: Is partly why -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- REID: The base of the Republican Party is turning to people like Trump and Carson. O`DONNELL: That`s where the energy comes from maybe. Maria Teresa, we have this budget deal now in Washington. And, of course, the three Republican senators running for President have all said, they will not just vote against it, they will filibuster it, they will try to filibuster it. Which means that it will take a few more days because they`ll have to get cloture to override these guys, which they will be able to do. But tomorrow night on the debate stage, there`s going to have to be a question about who among you supports this budget deal? And I wonder what John Kasich is going to do in that situation. KUMAR: Well, I think that he is actually had a -- he`s governed. And he`s -- none of the -- nobody else on that stage has really ever governed. And he knows that he has to negotiate. I think he`s going to have a tough time because he recognizes what`s at stake. But he`s not like Ben Carson. When Ben Carson -- when he`s asked by Wolf Blitzer whether or not he was going to increase the debt ceiling, he`s like, well, I`m not going to pay my debts. He didn`t realize that we actually had outstanding debts. So, there is definitely a level of sophistication that`s missing by the majority of the candidates of how to space a policy and how our government functions economically. And I think that Kasich is the one that could navigate that the best and explain it in plain English and walk away as actually -- he can actually walk away as a presidential candidate. Right now, none of them really seem like a presidential candidate. O`DONNELL: All right, quick break here. Maria Teresa Kumar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Coming up, Bernie Sanders wants to take on the banks. He wants to break up the big banks, so all of the bankers have to be against Bernie Sanders. They have to hate him, right? Well, there are bankers for Bernie. We will be joined by one of them. He`s coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Well, it turns out, not everyone on Wall Street hates Bernie Sanders. We will be joined in a moment by one of the Wall Street players who has contributed to the Sanders campaign -- and oh, by the way, told "POLITICO" that he didn`t vote for George W. Bush because he thought that George W. Bush was, "a moron". His word, not mine. Today, two polls out of Iowa show Hillary Clinton leading by a wide margin. A new Monmouth University poll of Iowa Democrats shows Hillary Clinton leading Bernie Sanders by 41 points in a new Loras College poll of Iowa. Democrats show Clinton leading Sanders by 38 points as recently as last week. A Quinnipiac poll showed Clinton leading Sanders by just 11 points in Iowa. On the "Today Show" this morning, Bernie Sanders said this about his supporters. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you acknowledge that Hillary Clinton has a better chance of winning the general? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: Absolutely not. The enthusiasm that we are generating means that a lot of working class people and young people who have given up on the political process are now coming out. And they want a candidate to stand up to the big money interest and create an economy that works for all of us and not just the 1 percent. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Paul Ryan -- not that Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan who is the managing partner at Hayfield Financial and a Wall Street supporter of Bernie Sanders. This was fascinating to read about in "POLITICO". They kind of tracked you people down through -- PAUL RYAN, MANAGING PARTNER, HAYFIELD FINANCIAL: Oh, yes -- O`DONNELL: The contribution records. Tell us what it is about the Sanders campaign that you think is positive. RYAN: Well, I think economics. I`m not doing this as a lark or a joke, even though, you know, I think everyone took the story as, you know, the 1 percent of Wall Street as it would like him. I think he is a good guy. I think he`s good for the economics. I think he is the 99 versus the 1 percent really matters? I think that`s important. I think that he is also going to do a little fiscal spending, which I think is good. And, then probably, I think he is going to clean up Wall Street, which I think we would all benefit from. So, it is not just a narrow point of view. O`DONNELL: You said in the "Politico" story, you have said if you have actually had a front row seat to this, you can see what is going on and it is not a good trend. Money gets made in the dark and you cannot figure out what is going on until there is a massive -- and people can just read that on the screen there. A massive "F" up. And, that is the story of what happened. RYAN: Yes. Well, I think I joined Wall Street in 1987. I went to Barclay`s bank fresh out of college. I am from Buffalo, New York, not to the manner born. And, I really, you know, was somewhat idealistic. Probably, the worst place to be idealistic in the world. But, you know, this is about capital formation, you know, for businesses. And, maybe I watched "It is a Wonderful Life" one too many times as a kid. But, that is what a banker is supposed to be. And, you know, there is a public good and a useful function. And, in the ensuing history from 1987 till now, you watch what is changed. It has become a speculative mess. The things that get rewarded have nothing to do with capital formation that leads to jobs and all the things that I thought was important when I took economics. That is where it is a funny place to be idealistic, but that is where I am. O`DONNELL: You said about Donald Trump. Trump is an old well known -- again, you are going to have to read the screen. Put this up. Do we have it on the screen. (LAUGHING) RYAN: Yes. O`DONNELL: As an old well known head in the business. Tell us how Wall Street regards Donald Trump. RYAN: Well, first of all, I have to apologize to my mother who is staying up late in Syracuse, New York. Mom, I am going to keep it clean. I am not supposed to work blue here. But, Trump was in the real estate group at Barclay`s bank. And, there was old hands around the bank that just said we do not lend to him. And, I was an impressionable analyst, I did not push it too hard. But, he was not well regarded that I think if you look at -- you know, if you really look deep down in the inch of history. I mean there is a spate of bankruptcies that chased him around. And, while he may come out clean, other people get hurt. And, I think that actually matters if you are in finance. You know, you really try to make all constituencies happy. He seems to be doing OK for himself, though. O`DONNELL: Are there any economic policies or any policies that you disagree with Bernie Sanders on. I mean it is not easy to find a candidate that you agree 100 percent. RYAN: Absolutely. I think a lot of stuff, of course, has to get simplified for the political process. This 99 percent versus the 1 percent billionaires. I think it is , you know, simplified talk for the folks out. I think it leads to sometimes that you need a sort of broad prescription. You got to swing a meat cleaver to go make some changes. And sometimes your phrases can be a tad impolitic. And, I think that Bernie has to oversimplify. You know, it sells in politics, for God`s sake. But yes, I cannot agree all of that, but I think he is going to put it in the right direction. And, that is why I am behind him. O`DONNELL: Austan Goolsbee, this is my first Wall Street player, who is a Bernie supporter. I think you talked to a lot more people in this kind of environment. Have you heard this kind of talk among bankers out there? AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, FMR. CHAIR COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISORS: Not for Bernie Sanders, no. But, that thoughtful -- let us call it the thoughtful internal critique on Wall Street. I think there is a bigger element of that than most people on the outside are aware of. I think a lot of people look. And especially in the wake of the financial crisis, just the acknowledgment that you can be for regulatory oversight and setting up strong rules of the road and that does not make you anti-business. I think that actually is a more widely held view on Wall Street than people are aware. O`DONNELL: And, Paul Ryan, going forward in this campaign, what would you advise voters to listen to on these issues? RYAN: I think that -- just to dig deep, read a lot, understand, you know, what is really -- you know, being said. I would also look to who is paying for stuff. Follow the money trail. I think they said that a long time ago in "All The President`s Men." But, I would follow the money, because I look at someone like Hillary Clinton. I look at the voters, who is giving them money and why. They do not give that money and not expect something for it. And, I think at the final analysis, that is what scares me about too many of these politicians. This is very easy for Wall Street to pay. The sector that I work with, Lawrence, are smaller businesses. They cannot afford political action communities and I think their voices do not get heard. And, I think that is why, you know, when I look at how Bernie`s campaign is funding, that is deeply, deeply meaningful. And, I would look at that as being probably as significant as anything. O`DONNELL: Paul Ryan -- GOOLSBEE: One scary thing about that, Paul -- O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Austan, quickly. GOOLSBEE: The one scary thing about that is, it is becoming so much harder to figure out where the money is coming from -- RYAN: Yes. GOOLSBEE: -- and where the money is going because of Citizens United, and all of these Super Pacs. O`DONNELL: Paul Ryan, the banker for Bernie and Austan Goolsbee, thank you both for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it. RYAN: You bet. O`DONNELL: Coming up next, the sheriff in South Carolina where that officer violently arrested a student in class will join us. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: After seeing the initial video, what were your impressions? I mean, can you give us your impressions? LEON LOTT, RICHLAND COUNTY SHERIFF: I want to throw up. I mean it just makes you sick to your stomach when you see that initial video; but again, that is a snapshot. As a professional, I have to look beyond just that one first video and look at the total picture, and that is what we are doing. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That was Richland County Sheriff Leon Lott earlier today, reacting to video of one of his officers slamming a 16-year-old girl to the ground at spring valley high in Columbia, South Carolina, yesterday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN FIELDS, SOUTH CAROLINA SHERIFF: Come on. I am going to get you up. Put your hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Deputy Ben Fields is now suspended without pay pending an internal investigation. Sheriff Leon Lott tells NBC News, he will announce his decision on Deputy Ben Field`s future employment tomorrow. Separate from that internal investigation, the FBI and the justice department have also launched criminal investigations. The school district has asked the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division to conduct its own independent investigation. Earlier today, the school board chairman called the incident outrageous. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES MANNING, CHAIRMAN, RICHLAND 2 SCHOOL BOARD: Yesterday`s incident was an outrageous exception to the culture, conduct and standards in which we so strongly believe in, in this district. There is absolutely no place in this district or any other district for that matter for what happened here yesterday. Our tolerance for it is zero. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: There are now three different students cell phone videos showing what occurred in that classroom, including this video which appears to show the student hitting the officer. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL (voice-over): I do not see where that is, where the video shows the student hitting the officer. So, I am not sure if it shows that at all. All right, here is what the sheriff had to say about that video. (END VIDEO CLIP) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHERIFF LOTT: Now, what she does is not what I am looking at. What I am looking at is what our school resource officer did. What was his actions? What did he do? That is where I will make my determination based on that. So, even though she was wrong for disturbing the class, even though she refused to abide by the directions of the teacher, the school administrator and then also to verbal commands of our deputy, I am looking at what our deputy did. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The 16-year-old girl was arrested and charged with disturbing school. Another student Niya Kenny was also arrested and charged with disturbing school, after she said she had tried to stand up for her classmate. Tonight, she spoke with MSNBC`s Chris Hayes. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NIYA KENNY, RICHLAND STUDENT WHO WAS ALSO ARRESTED FOR DISTURBING SCHOOL: Never have I ever seen anything like that. I have heard about him, so I was not really surprised because I heard so much about him. He is known as "Officer Slam" around our school. And, I have heard he has in the past slammed pregnant women, teenage girls. He is known for slamming. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Richland County South Carolina Sheriff Leon Lott. Joining us by phone. Sheriff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. SHERIFF LOTT (via phone): My pleasure. O`DONNELL: Sheriff, have you heard that before, what we just heard from that student who was in the room yesterday, that he is known as "Officer Slam" around the school because he slams people? SHERIFF LOTT (via phone): No, I have not heard that. I have heard some students talk bad about him. I have also heard students that talk good about him. It has been pretty well even on the comments from our students and from parents. But, again, those comments are not where I am going to base my decision on. Our investigation is totally on his actions. Do they follow our proper procedures. And, did he do the right thing that we are trained for him to do. And, that is what I will look at. Our investigation is just about complete. I will have the final results tomorrow morning and make my decision based on what our training unit and our internal investigators have discovered. O`DONNELL: What are your reaction to the school board chairman saying that there is absolutely no place in this district or any other district for what happened there. SHERIFF LOTT (via phone): Well, I agree with him. Well, I mean, my initial reaction, I think you collated just a minute ago, is that it made me stick to my stomach to see something like that. That is not what we want to see in our schools. That is not the type of incidents that we want to have. Our school resource officer is there to be mentors and teachers and coaches and build relationships with our students. You know, that is what I expect of them. O`DONNELL: And, Sheriff Lott, what are the options available to you right now in your decision about what to do with these officer? SHERIFF LOTT (via phone): Well, it is a wide range from doing nothing to determinating him. I mean, that is the range that I have. And, I will do what is appropriate and what our investigations reveal, and we will take appropriate action. And, our investigation just dealt with our internal policies. I have to ask the FBI and United States attorney`s office to come in and for them to do the criminal investigation part. They have done that at my request, so I felt like another agency that is respected and that is the FBI should be the one to come in and conduct that investigation and they agreed to it. O`DONNELL: And, Sheriff, will any of those investigations have yielded -- will any of that material be available to you in making your decision tomorrow morning? SHERIFF LOTT: No, that is a completely independent investigation. That is a criminal investigation. So, what they obtained on their investigation will not have any impact. I am not even going to be looking at it. I am looking at just what we get in our internal affairs investigation and talking with our training unit, who is responsible for reviewing incidents like this and see if the deputy followed our proper procedures and our training. That is what I am looking at. The FBI`s investigation deals with the criminal investigation. So, we are cooperating with them. We will give them whatever information they desire. But, that is something they are doing independent of us. O`DONNELL: Sheriff Lott, just so I understand your day tomorrow, are you going to be convening a meeting where internal affairs reports to you, gives you a handwritten report or material after you consume that you will then make a decision? SHERIFF LOTT: That is correct. They will present -- their report for me and I will review and then make my decision and tell that -- announce it at that time. O`DONNELL: Sheriff Leon Lott, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. Coming up, the mayor of Columbia, South Carolina, will join us. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: He is a really good officer. And, sometimes he can be like pretty mean, but he can also be a really nice officer. He can also help kids out at the school. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: We are joined by Mayor Stephen Benjamin of Columbia, South Carolina. Also with us Marq Claxton, Director of the Black Law Enforcement Alliance. He is in Columbia, South Carolina. And, back with us, MSNBC`s Joy Reid. Mayor, what was your reaction when you first saw these videos? STEPHEN BENJAMIN, MAYOR OF COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA: I think it is the same as almost any other public official, any parents, anyone who cares about social justice and our children. I was outraged and I shared that. I called the sheriff immediately and also our chief of police. Of course, it is important for me to note, this officer does not work for the City of Columbia Police Department. But, I believe that we are all citizens of the world. Those of us who represent people here in the midlands or quite frankly if you are in San Francisco or New York ought to be concerned by this type of behavior. It ought not to be tolerated. O`DONNELL: And, Mr. Mayor, the head of the school board said that there should a zero tolerance for this kind of police behavior in schools. Do you agree with that? MAYOR BENJAMIN: Obviously. Well, not just in schools. I mean, obviously, we have to make sure that we create an environment where school resource officers are obviously there to protect our children to make sure they develop into responsible young adults. And, making sure the adolescent behavior is not treated as if you are dealing with, you know, a criminal act on the streets in any city in America. You know, Lawrence, I work in law enforcement. I ran a large criminal justice agency. I have been mayor of the city for 5 1/2 years. Just earlier this month, we had a significant natural disaster. And, I worked side by side with so many men and women, who were truly heroes. They run towards danger when the rest of us are running in the opposite direction. This is not representative of the men and women who wear the uniform in Columbia, South Carolina. And, it is so important for people to understand that you can have folks who work every day for 20, 30 years, depending our cities, making sure that we can go to bed safe at night. And, one action like this can erode that public trust. It is so important that we seek a swift and transparent resolution to this issue. So important. O`DONNELL: Let us listen to what Niya Kenny said tonight about what she and the other students experienced when they were watching this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KENNY: They were scared. They were scared. I was scared myself. But, more than likely they were scared. I felt like the two grown men in the class were also scared themselves, because who has ever seen anything like that? That is not normal for someone to be handled like that, let alone a 16-year-old girl by a 300-pound man. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Marq Claxton, with your experience in that community, Columbia, and law enforcement, your reaction to this? MARQ CLAXTON, DIRECTOR OF THE BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE: Just a clear case of excessive force being used. And, you know, what is really confusing or troubling or agitated or aggravating the circumstances is some confusing messaging that is going on between the sheriff`s department and the public. And, that is whether or not there is clear and convincing evidence enough for him to take appropriate action even prior to some internal investigation. And, it is very rare that you have a city official, a sheriff that would actually make a federal case out of the situation such as this. I think it is obvious what should be done. I think Mayor Benjamin has been clear about his perspective on it. And, I think, you know, a lot of times process gets in the way of progress and really deteriorates the confidence that many people have in law enforcement. And, in law enforcement, it does overwhelmingly a great job. O`DONNELL: Process is moving quickly on this one. The sheriff said, he is going to decide tomorrow morning on what to do with this officer. We are going to take a quick break here and we are going to be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (MUSIC PLAYING) SHERIFF LOTT: Unfortunately, our legislature passed a lots of calls disturbing students. If a student disturbed school, and that is a wide range of activities disturbing schools, they can be arrested. And, I will be one of the first ones to stand here and tell you it has been abused in the past. It has been abused. Because it is so wide ranging that if the phone goes off -- If that teacher determines that phone is disrupting that class, and that the student cannot learn, she can have that student arrest for it. Should that happen? In my opinion, no. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Back with us, the mayor of Columbia, South Carolina, Stephen Benjamin. Also with us Marq Claxton and Joy Reid. Mr. Mayor, Joy Reid has a question for you. JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: It is actually a bit of a compound question, Mr. Mayor. First of all, to your knowledge, is the teacher who called that SRO officer, to your knowledge, expected to report to class tomorrow with those students? And, has there been any discussion about whether or not he should address this with the students, either the teacher or the administrator? MAYOR BENJAMIN: Thank you, Joy. I did attend the press conference that the school district held today, just as a parent here. I was interested in hearing with what was said. That question was asked and, of course, they have a significant number of regulations or rules that they have to follow in which, to be honest with you, the question was not answered. You know, it is -- To have that one student step up and speak her mind and stand up -- I got to tell you, I think that was a bold move. A bold move in something that we should be proud of. It is so important to recognize we are citizens of the world and that when you see injustice happen, we have to train our children. I train my two girls. They are just 8 and 10, that when they see something wrong happening, they have to speak up, stand up and speak out. I do not know what is going to happen with the teacher or anyone else, who is involved in the situation. But, again, I think that, you know, we got to make sure we focus on a swift and transparent resolution to the issue. O`DONNELL: But joy, if the mayor`s daughters were in this situation and they spoke up, they would have gotten arrested -- REID: That is right. O`DONNELL: -- just like Niya did. REID: Right. And, the disturbing schools law which was passed in South Carolina in 1976 has actually been upheld. There was one student, who challenged the law on free-speech grounds back in 2006, I believe it was, and actually round up losing in the state Supreme Court. So, the laws have been upheld. There have been legislators, though, who have tried to do mitigating legislation. Marlon Kimpson, a state senator actually got passed some legislation to expunge the records of young people, many of whom are winding up with criminal records based on things like, not listening to the teacher. The disturbing school law can cover everything from being rude in class, chewing gum in a way that disrupts the class, just minor, minor infractions. O`DONNELL: Marq Claxton, the sheriff has said that it is legal for the officer to have put his hands on the girl if he judged it necessary to physically move her. But, he said it is all about exactly what he does. He does not have unlimited right, physical right to try to control her like that. CLAXTON: Yes. Most importantly, the police officer`s action has to be reasonable. I think A lot of times the mistake is being made that, you know, people just assumed the police officer can use that force or can use that force without considering reason. One thing is for sure, police officers can be relegated to the school bouncer. O`DONNELL: Mayor Stephen Benjamin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. MAYOR BENJAMIN: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Also, Marq Claxton, thank you. And, Joy Reid as always, thank you for joining us. REID: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next. END