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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 08/27/15

Guests: Nicholas Kristof, Shira Center, David Corn, Glenn Greenward, RuthMargolis

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: They`re not going to be resettled in a -- prison like that. Guantanamo prisoners are currently in prison. They`re not going to be resettled in American backyards, they`re going to be moved to another prison. And actually, I think maybe it`s finally going to happen this year, at least if this is the quality of the remaining arguments against it. That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Our latest gun tragedy has given us our newest gun control advocate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s not about the guns, it`s about mental instability. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Presidential election and we are having the gun debate. TRUMP: It`s too bad somebody can`t figure that out. ANDY PARKER, FATHER OF ALISON PARKER: We`ve got this -- to find a way to keep crazy people from getting guns. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sadly, these kinds of events happen too often. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m not going to sit by while more good people die. SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What law in the world could have prevented him from killing them? Whether it was with a gun or a knife or a bomb. PARKER: I don`t want to see another Alison tragedy like this again. CLINTON: We`ve got to have common sense reforms. GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hillary Clinton political reaction, you know, to something that`s much more sophisticated. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t see any of these candidates deviating from this (INAUDIBLE) second amendment. PARKER: It`s got to stop. It has got to stop. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump is in South Carolina today. TRUMP: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say what you want about Donald Trump, he is not scripted. TRUMP: I don`t wear a toupee, it`s my hair, I swear. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I believe it is. TRUMP: Thank you. RUBIO: And I don`t believe Donald Trump will be our nominee. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy doesn`t have a plan. TRUMP: We need some unpredictability, we really do. They hear you because I have -- anybody want -- (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The father of Alison Parker; the reporter who was murdered on live television yesterday made his first public comments about his daughter`s death last night on "Fox News" and ended that interview by announcing his new mission in memory of his daughter, gun control legislation. Andy Parker continued stressing that political point today on "Nbc News". (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PARKER: My grief, which is still apparent and will be that way for a while, it`s turned to anger because, you know, how many times are we going to see an incident like this happen? You know, Newtown, Charleston, you know, the movie theaters, you name it. It`s got to stop. It has got to stop nationally, locally, we`ve got to find a way to keep crazy people from getting guns. Mentally unstable people. I mean, look at the people that do this are mentally unstable and somehow they`re able to get guns. And the NRA is fighting it tooth and nail. And I -- my goal is to call these people out, which I`m doing now, and I`m going to do it on national television every chance I get and call out the politicians that support it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Republican candidates for president immediately came out in opposition to Andy Parker`s new cause. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: What happened in Virginia is absolutely terrible. So sad to see this magnificent -- these magnificent two -- and the woman that was hurt -- but these magnificent two people -- so sad, so something has to happen. At the same time, it`s not about the guns, it`s about mental instability. RUBIO: The only people who follow gun laws are law-abiding citizens. Criminals by definition ignore the law. What law in the world could have prevented him from killing them? Whether it was with a gun or a knife or a bomb? (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Hillary Clinton brought up gun control yesterday even before Andy Parker did. And today, in Ohio, she said this -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: I strongly believe we`ve got to have common sense reforms to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals, the violently unstable, domestic abusers and even terrorists. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes! CLINTON: Who find it pretty easy in our country to get ahold of a weapon if they so choose. I`m not going to sit by while more good people die and they get 24 or 48 or 72 hours of TV coverage and then we all just say, well, there`s nothing we can do until the next time people are murdered by gun violence. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That gave Republican presidential candidate Scott Walker the opportunity to speak in opposition to Hillary Clinton without acknowledging that he was also speaking in opposition to the latest publicly grieving father in America`s endless saga of gun violence. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WALKER: It`s unfortunate that all too often, we see from people like Hillary Clinton, a political reaction, commenting to something that`s much more sophisticated and challenging to that. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Nicholas Kristof, whose column for the "New York Times", today is about gun control. He`s also the co-author of the book "A Path Appears", out next week in paperback. Also with us, Shira Center; a political editor for the "Boston Globe", David Corn, Washington Bureau Chief for "Mother Jones" and Msnbc political analyst. Nick, we saw this cause started to develop in certain corners of the media yesterday about -- it`s horrible to talk politics in the aftermath of these events. There is some kind of decent interval apparently that, you know, Republicans think is supposed to exist after these events before anyone dare say the words gun control. And then very much to their surprise, last night on "Fox News", this grieving father was the one who led this time. NICHOLAS KRISTOF, JOURNALIST: And Andy Parker is exactly right. This is not about just one double murder, this is about a larger problem in America where we are off the charts globally. Ninety two Americans die every day of gun violence. American kids are 14 times as likely to die of gun violence as kids in the industrial world as a whole. And why is that? It`s complicated. It`s not just because we have so many guns, but that is one major reason for it and there are steps we can take that aren`t going to solve the problem but that can reduce that toll considerably. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what President Obama said yesterday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: Sadly, these kinds of events happen too often and it`s a testimony in this case to -- the fact that global journalists, they go into some tough places. This wasn`t one of those situations. This is a place where they should have been safe and I think it`s one more argument for why we need to look at, you know, how we can reduce gun violence in this country. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Shira Center, the Republican candidates when they talk about this are going to want to say, you know, I disagree with Hillary Clinton, they`re not going to want to mention Andy Parker. SHIRA CENTER, POLITICAL EDITOR, BOSTON GLOBE: Yes, they don`t want to mention Andy Parker obviously, and he`s at the center of this right now, and he is among many things, he is at his core right now a grieving father. So, taking on Andy Parker and this is not going to be a winning argument for a lot of Republican candidates. What I`d really like to see for all of these Republican candidates talking about mental health as the root of the problem for this, you know, what kind of policies are they going to present that doesn`t include expanding government spending to resolve this? What do they think is the solution to this in terms of it is a mental health problem. O`DONNELL: Well, Scott Walker said today that the common thread we see in many of these cases is a failure in the system to help someone who is suffering from mental illness. But when he was Milwaukee County executive, Scott Walker cut mental health case managers, he cut 90 treatment, mental health treatment, he cut several hundred thousand dollars out of the budget there. David Corn -- DAVID CORN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, MOTHER JONES: Yes -- O`DONNELL: And so, it`s not like the Republicans have found something they actually want to do about this. They -- CORN: Right -- O`DONNELL: It sounds like they want to use the phrase mental health to suggest there`s no government responsibility. CORN: Well, as a distraction in some ways. Jeb Bush, too, when he was governor of Florida vetoed several line items for programs that help people with substance abuse and mental health issues. So, it`s not just Scott Walker. I mean, part of the issue here, too, is you can talk about having greater mental health services across the country, but a lot of these people who are committing these foul deeds often are walking in without a history or -- they even haven`t sought mental health. So, unless the Republicans are going to go out there with a mental health police squad to find people like the fella who shot up the journalists in Virginia and be kind of, you know, the worst type of government, you know, jack-booted thugs that they ever talk about. The other -- you know, you have to look at the supply of guns. You have to look at doing something to make it harder to get guns, whether it`s registering guns, that maybe somewhat of a disincentive some people to use in the wrong way. There are all these things that you have to do about the gun supply even if you can`t get rid of every gun. And otherwise, their mental health policies, you know, are nonexistent and the ones that would have any impact are -- go against all the conservative libertarian principles that they espouse. O`DONNELL: I want to listen to what Kelly Zuber had to say today at a press conference. This is -- she is the news director of the TV station where this tragedy happened and she is talking about the precautions they`re taking now. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLY ZUBER, NEWS DIRECTOR: We did not have live teams out yesterday nor do we have them out today, just for, you know, abundance of caution. And I know a lot of other news organizations around the country are wrestling with that. We`ll evaluate that as we go and we`ll also consult with our staff and see what their comfort level is with this. Law enforcement has actually reached out to us and said, you know, hey, if you`re doing a live shot somewhere, let us know and we`ll be there. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: And Nick Kristof, this brings up something we know about this phenomenon. This is going to happen again. We have not seen our last -- KRISTOF: Absolutely -- O`DONNELL: Shooting in a school, we have not seen our last shooting on a college campus. We have not seen our last shooting in a movie theater because there is a repetitive pattern to these incidents. And now that we`ve seen someone try to do this on live television with a live crew out there in the field, we have every right to expect at some point in the next years -- we don`t know when, someone else to try to use this same method again. And so there -- and they`re saying, you know, what do we do about our news crews when we send them out there? KRISTOF: Absolutely, and of course some of these incidents then beget more incidents. But I would say that, you know, we tend to focus on this really newsworthy -- particular macabre incidents. The great pattern, that 33,000 gun deaths every year in the U.S., you know, most of these are people who know each other, their spouses, their friends. Two-thirds of them are suicides, suicides are much more likely to be effective if a gun is involved. And you know, it may well be that no measure could have prevented the killer in this case from actually acquiring that gun. But if we did have much greater controls as Canada has, as Australia has, as any other modern country has, then if we could reduce the toll by a one- third, that`d be -- O`DONNELL: Give the -- KRISTOF: Ten thousand -- O`DONNELL: Give the Australia example as you did in your -- KRISTOF: Sure -- O`DONNELL: Column today. KRISTOF: So, Australia has a legacy very much like the U.S., many people had guns, a lot of hunters, a tradition of -- (CROSSTALK) O`DONNELL: It`s own kind of wild west, historically -- KRISTOF: Yes, absolutely -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- KRISTOF: Similar heritage. Then -- and they`ve had a series of these mass attacks, then in 1996, there was one that really shook the country. The conservative government at the time actually decided this is enough. And with broad public support, they instituted a major constraints on guns. And handguns are still available, it becomes a lot harder. The result is that gun homicides dropped almost 50 percent, gun suicides dropped 50 percent over the next seven years. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to more about what Andy Parker had to say today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PARKER: Somebody has got to be able to identify, hey, this guy`s got some problems, he`s got some anger issues, he shouldn`t be buying a gun. I got a call from the governor from Terry McAuliffe yesterday and he was very gracious and he -- I told him this is what I`m going to do. I mean, this is something that now, you know, to help Alison`s memory live on and do something about her life and make it, you know meaningful, we need politicians like Terry McAuliffe to step up. And I`m going to hold him -- governor, I`m going to hold you to it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: I just wanted Andy Parker to get the last word in this segment tonight. We`re going to take a quick break, when we come back, former Ku Klux Klan President and former presidential candidate, he`s a Ku Klux Klan grand dragon formerly, and a former Republican presidential candidate David Duke. He has chosen his candidate for president. Now, take a wild guess who David Duke might want to see as the next president. And a new poll offers Joe Biden some hope for a possible presidential campaign. And later, Glenn Greenwald will join us to talk about invasion of privacy, this time, not by the NSA, but by the Ashley Madison hackers. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Campaign opponents Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are actually going to hold a joint rally in Washington next week in opposition to the Iran deal. Donald Trump said this today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We are talking to Ted Cruz, who`s a friend of mine and a good guy about doing something very big over the next two weeks in Washington. It will be announced and it will -- it`s essentially a protest against the totally incompetent deal that we`re making with Iran. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: And after that, Mitt Romney`s former campaign manager Stuart Stevens tweeted this afternoon, "Ted Cruz hoping if he is nice enough to Trump, he will be able to lure his voters -- is like feeding the alligator, hoping it will eat you last." Up next, guess who former Ku Klux Klan leader and former Republican presidential candidate David Duke thinks is the best choice for president. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: David Duke, the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and a former Republican candidate for president, senate and the House of Representatives has found his candidate for president. He is on the bandwagon of the Republican frontrunner Donald Trump. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAVID DUKE, POLITICIAN: So although, we can`t trust him to do what he says, you know, the other -- the other Republican candidates won`t even say what he says. So he`s certainly the best of the lot, and he`s certainly somebody that we should definitely get behind in terms of, you know, raising the image of this thing. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: "Bloomberg`s" John Halman asked Donald Trump about getting an endorsement from a grand wizard. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: What`s the -- JOHN HALMAN, BLOOMBERG: Looking to repudiate David Duke? TRUMP: Sure, I will do that if it made -- HALMAN: Right -- TRUMP: You feel better, I would -- HALMAN: Well -- TRUMP: Certainly repudiate -- I don`t know anything about him. Somebody told me yesterday, whoever he is, he did endorse me, and actually, I don`t think it was an endorsement. He said I was absolutely the best of all the candidates. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Donald Trump gave a speech in South Carolina and for once no network covered the whole thing live. But I took on the duty of watching every word of it on our network feed and I can officially confirm to you, that the network made a wise decision. You didn`t miss a thing. There wasn`t a new line in the entire speech, except for a new audience participation bit about Donald`s hair. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I don`t wear a toupee. It`s my hair, I swear -- come here, come here, come here, come here! I`m going to -- we`re going to settle this. You know, Barbara Walters did it. Barbara Walters named me the most whatever it is of the year. Just come on up here. They`re going to let you. I just -- you have to do an inspection here, this is getting crazy. This is crazy, just real quick. We don`t want to mess it up too much because I do use hair spray. That I`d say -- come -- is it mine? Look. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is. TRUMP: It is? Say it, please. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I believe it is. TRUMP: Thank you. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: David Corn, big surprise. America`s leading white supremacist has landed on Donald Trump as his candidate. CORN: Well, I was happy to see Donald Trump repute David Duke only because John Halman wanted him to. It wasn`t like, oh, I got, this is terrible, I wanted nothing to do with this guy. If you want me to repute him, I`ll repute him, OK, he`s reputed. You know, I`m sure, you know, somewhere he is thinking, well, maybe, we`ll get a few votes out of this, it`s a good deal. You know, I don`t think endorse him back. But it does go to show that what`s fueling, I think Trump`s, you know, standing in the polls and his success so far is, he is appealing to a lot of Republican conservative voters. Maybe not even so conservative, who just are angry, frustrated, they have a lot of fear, they don`t, you know, they don`t like to press one for English, two for Spanish. They don`t like the cultural changes that are taking place in America and that`s what`s driving this and that`s one reason Trump won`t go away. Because there is a large block of Americans who feel that way. O`DONNELL: And Shira, he of course, Donald Trump of course pled ignorance which he does whenever is convenient to him by saying about David Duke. He said, I don`t know anything about him. That was in his statement where he`s also immediately willing to, you know, repute, as the word -- the chosen word in that interview. But you know, you`re covering the New Hampshire primary closely up there for the "Boston Globe". David Duke is not going to be helpful in the New Hampshire primary. CENTER: He is not going to be helped, sure, helpful in the New Hampshire primary, but Donald Trump is still leading the New Hampshire Republican primary in polls up here. So, there is certainly -- is a segment of the population that I think David described very well. They tend to be less educated, Republicans who are sticking by Donald Trump through thick and thin. And look at that comment he just made. The correct answer in politics 101 is to refute the David Duke endorsement. There is no other answer to that question in politics, yet he managed to answer in a different way and he just going to pass it off to the side. Just another reason why Donald Trump completely confounds the rules of today`s politics, whether or not it`s good for America. O`DONNELL: Well, you know, he doesn`t have time, I guess, because he is busy condemning everyone who endorses anyone else. Eric Cantor -- CENTER: Or putting hair spray on his hair -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- CENTER: Apparently -- O`DONNELL: Eric Cantor endorsed Jeb Bush today. Trump immediately tweets, "who wants the endorsement of a guy who lost in perhaps the greatest upset in the history of Congress?" (LAUGHTER) So, you know, Nick Kristof, he is busy calling the Jeb Bush endorsers losers. KRISTOF: He is busy reputing everybody. O`DONNELL: Yes -- KRISTOF: He`s -- O`DONNELL: Everybody else -- KRISTOF: Except David Duke. But you know, I guess I doubt that this is going to really have that much effect among Republican circles, you know, one way or the other. And you know, it`s a long way to go. And I mean, obviously he is -- I`m sure that Trump is number one among the -- among Republican races, he`s also number one among Republican moderates. He`s number one among Republican evangelicals -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- KRISTOF: He`s number one pretty much across the board -- O`DONNELL: Yes, and the newest Quinnipiac poll shows Donald Trump with the lead at 28 percent, Ben Carson running second at 12, Jeb Bush at third at 7, tied with Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio. Scott Walker comes in right after that. And -- CORN: You know -- O`DONNELL: Go ahead, David. I was going to -- CORN: I will just say -- O`DONNELL: To these polls -- CORN: The interesting thing -- O`DONNELL: I just -- CORN: Yes -- O`DONNELL: Wanted to mention also this point that Nate Comb(ph) brought up in the "New York times" today, that there`s an analysis of the polls indicating that the support for Trump comes from people -- of a significant number of people who did not -- CORN: Yes -- O`DONNELL: Even vote in the last presidential election. KRISTOF: You`re right -- O`DONNELL: And who very rarely vote or never vote in primaries. And so that offers -- KRISTOF: Yes -- O`DONNELL: The theory that the Trump polling position is being inflated by these respondents -- CORN: Well, yes -- O`DONNELL: In primaries -- CORN: Yes and no. I mean, there are instances in the past when Jesse Ventura, you know, was elected governor and then it saw these -- saw a lot of people voting who never voted before. They were -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- CORN: Motivated by his populism, I bet a lot of people, same thing with Ross Perot. And the poll you just put up, which I think fascinating is that you take Trump`s number and add them with Ben Carson`s number. His campaign slogan is not "Make America Great Again", it`s heal America and revive America. But I think he`s appealing in a -- in a certain quieter way to sound the same sentiments. You add that together, you got 40 percent. As Donald Trump would say, that`s huge, almost half of the Republican Party, you know, wants one of these type of -- this type of candidate. And that spells big trouble for Jeb Bush and the establishment. O`DONNELL: Well, if you add Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee to that, you get to 50 and that`s been roughly what all the polls have been showing on this. But I mean, I was struck by something David Duke said, because he may well be speaking for an awful lot of the people in that 28 percent. He says, so although we can`t trust him to do what he says, the other Republican candidates won`t even say what he says. And Nick Kristof, they really want to hear Donald Trump say what he says. KRISTOF: Well, I mean, he`s incredibly -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- KRISTOF: Entertaining and these -- but I do think that, boy, it`s a long way before anybody actually goes to the polls. I think I would still bet that Donald Trump is going to fade. I`m not sure I`d give odds -- bear in mind of a month or two ago, but -- (LAUGHTER) It`s a long -- it`s a long time before people are actually casting ballots. O`DONNELL: Well, Shira, what he does keep coming up against in all of the polls is, he is the Republican who most Republicans say they will never vote for. He gets the highest score on who will you never vote for in these things. And you know, getting up to 28, hovering around the mid-20s and now 28 in this poll has been a pretty consistent spot where he is. And so, until he starts to break above 30 in a significant way, he seems to be hovering at a -- at a plateau there. CENTER: Yes, there`s no question he has a ceiling in the Republican primary. He certainly has a ceiling in general election polls. He just can`t get over that hump. And who`s also looked -- this Donald Trump phenomenon, believe it or not is not all about Donald Trump, unless of course you ask him. This is also about this -- having such a large field. There are many primaries where the person with 28 percent on primary or caucus night, they are the loser, they are in third place. So going into this thing, it`s also result of having such a large field, splitting up the vote into so many different directions. Twenty eight percent is not the majority of the Republican Party by any means. It is a fraction and what many cases what the loser gets on the end of the primary, Dave -- CORN: It`s a lot -- it`s a lot better than Jeb Bush`s 7 percent -- CENTER: This is -- (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: Yes, it is now -- CENTER: This is true -- (CROSSTALK) CORN: You go into the war with the candidates in the polls you have as Donald Rumsfeld might say -- O`DONNELL: All right -- CORN: I mean, still -- I mean, it`s still pretty remarkable that against that wide field of established candidates with long pedigrees, you know, Trump is just wiping them by a factor of four. O`DONNELL: The latest addition to the Trump payroll is Sam Clovis, who is a defector from Rick Perry`s campaign and unfortunately, Sam Clovis is working in the age of e-mail. And so he -- the Perry campaign is releasing the Sam Clovis e-mails of just a couple of weeks ago about Donald Trump in which he says, "Trump left me with questions about his moral center and his foundational believes." His comments revealed no foundation in Christ, which is a big deal." He has a lot of other e-mails attacking Trump that we don`t have time to read right now. But Trump today, when asked about it, Nick, says, oh, Sam Clovis is a great guy. It`s just as simple as that. (LAUGHTER) CORN: Of course he is -- KRISTOF: At least he acknowledged knowing him. CORN: Right -- O`DONNELL: Doesn`t acknowledge -- KRISTOF: He remembered him. O`DONNELL: And he say, he`s on my payroll now, so who cares what he said then. All right, stay with us, we`re going to have more. When we come back, a new poll shows Hillary Clinton still in the lead for the Democratic nomination. But offered some encouragement to Joe Biden. And later, is the Ashley -- is the Ashley Madison hack an invasion of privacy or a well deserved penalty for the users of Ashley Madison? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: A new Quinnipiac Poll released today shows a 15-point slide for Hillary Clinton since Quinnipiac began this season`s presidential polling in April, when Secretary Clinton had a lead over the democratic field at 60 percent. That was down 55 percent by July. And, in two days Quinnipiac Poll it is at 45 percent. Bernie Sanders is at 22 percent. Joe Biden is now at 18 percent. That is an increase of 5 points for Sanders and 5 points for Biden since the last Quinnipiac poll. For the first, time the poll shows Joe Biden doing better in general election matchups than Hillary Clinton. Joe Biden leads Jeb Bush by 6 points. Hillary Clinton leads Jeb Bush by 2 points. Joe Biden leads Marco Rubio by 3 points. Hillary Clinton leads Marco Rubio by 1 point. And, against Donald Trump, Joe Biden leads by 8 points, while Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 3 points. Now, there have been some fascinating responses on the internals of these polls on the issue of trustworthiness for example. Let us take a look at that. The trustworthiness scores in the new Quinnipiac poll shows Joe Biden at 56 percent. Jeb Bush at 48 percent. Bernie Sanders 44 percent. Donald Trump 38, and Hillary Clinton at 34. Nicholas Kristof, Hillary Clinton -- KRISTOF: 39, I think. O`DONNELL: 39. OK. But, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton kind of tied there at the bottom of that score. KRISTOF: Right. I mean that is what really struck me. Not so much that Biden was showing the strength. The differences is between -- in those matchups, the differences between Biden and Hillary Clinton are actually within the margin of error in the poll. But what you really do see is this, you know, distrust, 39 percent approval rating there for her. The three words that popup -- the most common when people ask -- when pollsters asked for Clinton were liar, dishonest and untrustworthy. And, you know, I think that is a fundamental problem that the campaign is going to have to address. And, of course, I also wonder whether one reason why Biden is entering the campaign or is thinking about it is that he has information about how the e-mail investigation is going or what shoe may drop next. O`DONNELL: Well, and David Corn, Joe Biden had a meeting with the AFL-CIO today, which I find fascinating, because on their biggest issue, which is the transpacific partnership, the trade bill, there is no difference that we are aware of between Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton on that, and they are both in the wrong place for the AFL-CIO. CORN: Well, there are not a lot of issue differences, I think, between the two of them, you know, on a grand scale, overall. And, so, one issue has to be if Biden gets in to the race, what are they going to argue about? Is it going to have to be, "I have more experience." "I am more trustworthy" or personal attributes." I mean I am not showing for the Hillary campaign here, but if I were them, I would say, listen, you know, right now, he looked better -- Joe Biden looked better in those polls, but he has not been subjected to six months of negative advertising and negative headlines the way she has. You know politicians always look good or look better before they get in to the race. It is to all downhill from there. So, I think, you know if Biden were to get in, you know, his previous gaps, and mistakes he has made in the past would be blown up and you would have a competitive race between him and Hillary. And, you know, God knows how negative or nasty it might be. Even though, Biden in the past has never, I am told by his people, ever OK`d a negative ad. O`DONNELL: Yes. And, Shira, we have seen this Bernie sanders conducted campaign where he has never mentioned Hillary Clinton. He never attacks her. He never goes negative in any way. Hillary Clinton does not go after Bernie Sanders. If it becomes -- if Biden enters that dynamic can that kind of playing be continued in -- with three different campaigns where none of them are saying anything negative about each other? CENTER: I think it is going to be really hard to see that play out, totally positive democratic primary. I think Bernie Sanders in the end will probably not go negative. It does not speak to the idea of his candidacy. It is just the way he has run his campaigns in the past. I do not see him going negative on either of those guys unless they say something very targeted towards him and he feels the need to respond. Now, Hillary Clinton and Joe Bide and we have both seen them in democratic primaries before. We both know what their records are and how they run these races. And, Hillary Clinton did not shy away from criticizing Barack Obama in 2008 in that primary. I could see that becoming a more negative race, certainly not as gentle in tone as it is now. O`DONNELL: Back to the poll and the word association game that they played with the respondents. On Donald Trump, you know, give us Donald Trump in one word, the number one word was arrogant. The number two word was blow hard and the number three word was idiot, which was not used for any of the other candidates. (LAUGHING) And, yet Donald Trump, the idiot, according to those viewers -- those voters is saying he knows more about women`s health than Hillary Clinton. That is given Hillary Clinton a chance to try to wrap Donald Trump around the necks of all the other republicans. Let us listen to the way she is doing that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Extreme views about women. We expect that from some of the terrorist groups. We expect that from people who do not want to live in the modern world. But it is a little hard to take coming from republicans, who want to be the president of the United States yet they espouse out of date and out of touch policies. They are dead wrong for 21st century America. We are going forward. We are not going back! (END VIDEO CLIP) PINSKY: Shira, it seems that strategically Hillary Clinton agrees with George Will that Donald Trump is hurting the Republican Party and Hillary wants to make sure he is hurting it as much as he possibly can. CENTER: Yes. There is no one celebrating Donald Trump`s ascension in this race more than the Democratic Party right now. And, this two months ago, before we kind of accepted the fact that Donald Trump was the frontrunner and probably here to stay for a while, two months ago -- And, this is what Donald Trump was supposed to do to the Republican Party, he was supposed to go so right that all the other republican candidates, even the ones who are more moderate on some things are supposed to -- excuse me, more conservative on some things were supposed to look more moderate. He is supposed to make the Republican Party look more moderate. Well, that has not happened at all. Instead, many of them are embracing Donald Trump and has put democrats, I think, in a very happy position for themselves to be able to rope the republicans in with the Donald Trump Party. O`DONNELL: Nick Kristof, the Clinton campaign is starting to shake internally, especially when you see Ed Rendell in your newspaper today saying, "The campaign has been incredibly tone deaf." I mean there is no stronger Clinton loyalist than Ed Rendell. KRISTOF: Well, I think they need to have some internal examination. I mean they have done some -- I think there were not enough people, who were talking pretty bluntly to Hillary Clinton at various times. But, boy, we are a long way away. She still has so much room to correct. O`DONNELL: We are long way away will be the last word on the campaign for tonight. Nick Kristof, thank you very much for joining us. Shira Center and David Corn, thank you. Up next, President Obama goes to New Orleans on the 10th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: As a presidential candidate in 2007, Senator Barack Obama said, quote, "America failed the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast." Today, President Obama returned to New Orleans for the 10th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. The president met with residents who continue to rebuild their neighborhoods and businesses. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PRES. BARACK OBAMA, CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENT: Our work here will not be done when almost 40 percent of children still live in poverty in this city. That is not a finished job. That is not a full recovery. Our work will not be done when a typical black householder has half the income of white households. The work is not done yet. (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING) Our work is not done when there are still too many people who had yet to find good affordable housing and too many people, especially African- American men, who cannot find a job. Not when there is still too many people who have not been able to come back home. But, the thing is, the people of New Orleans -- there is something in you guys that is just irrepressible. You guys have a way of making a way out of no way. You know the sun comes out after every storm. (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Up next, what does the NSA have to do with Ashley Madison? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Many people who are deeply concerned with potential invasions of privacy in the NSA`s collection of metadata have been gleeful about the personal information released by the hackers of the website Ashley Madison whose motto is, "Life is Short, Have an Affair." The "Washington Post" actually ran a story reveling in the release of private information about private citizens with the headline, "How to search the Ashley Madison leak." The leading reporter of the NSA story, Glenn Greenwald sees the Ashley Madison story as another dangerous invasion of digital privacy. In the series of articles for "The Intercept," Glenn Greenwald has tried to slow the rush to puritanical judgment that most other news organizations have engaged in. In a recent article, Greenwald reprinted an e-mail he received from an Ashley Madison user, who now expects to be outed and subjected to public mockery and shame. This e-mail does not fit the stereotype of the Ashley Madison user that most of the media prefers. The email says, "I am female, hold a job with a lot of responsibility, have three kids, one with special needs and a husband with whom I have not been intimate for several years due to his cancer treatments. Mine is a loveless, sexless parenting marriage. I will care for my husband if his cancer spreads. We manage good will for the sake of the children, but we cannot talk about my emotional or sexual needs without him fixating on his death and crying. I went on Ashley Madison out of loneliness and despair and found friendship, both male and female with others trapped in terrible marriages, trying to do right by their children. My experiences have led me to soften my views of marriage as my own marriage is a deeply humbling and painful long-term commitment. I expect to be ridiculed by colleagues, to lose my job and to be publicly shamed. When my outing happens, I suppose I might as well take a stand for those who are trapped in bad marriages. Many of us are doing the best we can, trying in our own imperfect way to cope with alienation, loneliness and physical deprivation. I do not want to hurt my children or husband. I truly wish I had a good one and I want happy marriages for others. I did what I did trying to cope. Maybe it was a bad idea but again I have met some very decent people on Ashley Madison, some of whom are now dear friends." Joining us now are Glenn Greenwald, Cofounding Editor of "The Intercept" and Ruth Margolis, contributing writer for "The Week." Glenn, I have been following your posts about this. And, you know, at the beginning of the coverage of this, it reminds me of the beginning of the coverage of, you know, the movie stars who have had their selfies, their private selfies hacked and distributed. And, at first, people think, "Is not this fun?" And, then somewhere it starts to nag on them that there is an invasion of privacy here. But there seems to be a very, very slow media reaction here to this invasion of privacy. GLENN GREENWARD, COFOUNDING EDITOR OF "THE INTERCEPT": I agree. I mean you can make the argument that people who are famous and benefit from that fame that part of the deal is that their lives are scrutinized more than other people, although there should be limits even there. But, here we are talking about 33 million people, roughly, who are absolutely private citizens, at least the vast majority of them are. We do not know what many of them actually did. Many of them could have gone to the site for pornography for titillation, for journalistic interest. They might have been resisting the temptation to engage in adultery and use this site as an outlet so they did not actually have to. So, the judgment about what they did is really disturbing but even in the case of people who did actually have sex with someone other than their spouse, I mean I thought we all learned the lesson from like the Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, that we should not be delving into other adults` private sexual lives and trying to cast judgment as though we know we know what they are going through or in the position to judge anything other than our own behavior. O`DONNELL: Yes. Ruth, there are so many elements of this. I, first of all, want to talk about the puritanical nature of the general media`s reaction. It is overwhelmingly puritanical, overwhelming judgmental. What I was struck by when I read the letter that Glenn posted was, "OK, this is the story that no one is considering." Everybody thinks the story is just bad self indulgent guys who are constant liars. RUTH MARGOLIS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR THE WEEK: Yes, I think that is the point that everyone kind of missed along the way, which is women have affairs, too. And, I think although it has come to light that actually the vast, vast majority of people on Ashley Madison were men but in the cruel light of day, women cheat. And, they cheat for exactly the same reasons men cheat. Some reasons you will find sympathetic, some you will not. And, you know, we cannot judge these things necessarily down gender lines. It just does not work like that in reality. O`DONNELL: Glenn, one of the notes that does not fit the overall stereotype of the story was in "The New York Post" this week where a man gave his own firsthand account of discovering his wife using Ashley Madison, only because of this hack and that helped rip apart his marriage. His marriage was already in trouble, but this notion that when this story came out, and this information came out that we all have a right to this information. We have a right to go search it. The "Washington Post" do pointed it out had a headline saying, "Here is how you search this thing." We all have this right to play around with other people`s privacy. GREENWALD: Yes, I mean think of the implications for the people whose privacy was exposed. What is on the internet is permanent, which means that his is going to be attached to them for the rest of their lives. Sort of like a digital scarlet letter branded onto their clothing. But, you know, other people are going to have their careers ruined, the military, people in government, or people in the private sector who work for employers who are going to judge them morally. People who live in countries where they could actually be punished with prison or even death for adultery or for interest in homosexuality like Saudi Arabia, regions of the Middle East where Ashley Madison users are, are even in greater danger. And, you know what? It really does remind me -- I remember in the `80s when I was growing up as a gay person in America and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell used to say things like, "Well, AIDS is something that people who engage in promiscuity deserved because their homosexuality, because they are being sinful." It is very much that mentality. "Well, these people get what they deserve because they are engaged in morally questionable behavior." O`DONNELL: All right. We are going to take a quick break and back with more on Ashley Madison. (MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Was the Ashley Madison hack a good thing or a bad thing? That is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: We are back with Ruth Margolis and Glenn Greenwald talking about Ashley Madison. Ruth, one of the things that has come out is this analysis of exactly how many women were really using this thing. And, it seems to be slipping down from millions to possibly thousands, which raises a very interesting thing here, which is it seems like most of the guys using Ashley Madison were not going to be able to succeed in having an affair, even if they wanted to. So, when you discover has used it, it does not mean you know anything about what they actually did. MARGOLIS: They may have been using the site purely for fantasy, just to kind of imagine themselves in that role. I mean we just do not know. We do not know what goes on in these people`s heads. We do not know, you know, why men use it. We do not know why the few women were on there, used it. We do not know if more women wanted to use it and actually did. And, we also do not know if the site had been promoted more or targeted at women whether women would use it more. I mean if you just look at the home page, it is with this sort of pouty woman on there. It is very clearly being marketed to a man. So, I just wonder if you took the same thing and marketed it to women whether more women would actually go for it. O`DONNELL: Glenn, this raises questions as the Sony hack did, the questions of privacy and where do we draw the lines. You have helped get information out of the government and published publicly information that the government considers to have been stolen. I had plenty of people say to me in Hollywood, when the Sony leak came out, why are not people identifying this has stolen material? Why are they reading stolen material on T.V.? And, then there is this, there is this Ashley Madison issue. What guidelines would you present to people about when they should be interested in otherwise secret information, and when they should not? When they should say that is not for us? GREENWALD: Yes, that is a critical question. It is not necessarily one that is easy to answer. But, I think we have, generally, a kind of common sense about what is in the public interest and what is private. I mean for one thing, people inside the government are called public officials. They are supposed to meet transparency by law. I think we can all agree that when people in government do something in a public policy nature that affects all of us, that has a high level of transparency that ought to be brought to it. And, there are sort of other polar extreme are private individuals engaged in purely private behaviors, like what kinds of things that you inside your marriage or sexual choices. But, you are right. I mean think about all the things we do on the internet now. We put our medical records on there, our banking records. I mean even if you think this was an OK hack, imagine the next time when somebody invades alcoholic or drug addiction clinic or an abortion clinic and says, "I want everyone to know who is using these services." These are important questions as we do more and more online. O`DONNELL: And, you know, Ruth, what Glenn just raised, who is using abortion services, there are millions of people out there in America, who think there is a legitimate public interest in knowing who is using those services because they believe that is murder. MARGOLIS: Yes, I mean it is really scary prospect. I agree completely with Glenn. It is very dangerous path we are going down. I certainly cannot imagine anything worse than like hearing these poor people have their details of something so intensely private exposed. I mean the affairs is one thing but imagine, you know -- I mean you could be in real personal danger. Should someone find out that you had an abortion or been a drug addict. You know, we just do not know where this might end. O`DONNELL: Ruth Margolis gets tonight`s last word. Glenn Greenwald and Ruth Margolis thank you very much for joining us. Chris Hayes is up next up. END