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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 04/29/15

Guests: Elijah Cummings, Eric Kowalczyk, Catherine Pugh

JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And other local leaders with the pastor -- some people who were chanting, go home, and groups of people who were saying essentially no. And Congressman Cummings is still out here, he`s just walking around with his bullhorn, and a member of his staff and another local leader with the pastor. I don`t know what`s going on over there. Now, we have people kind of -- kind of moving quickly. Now, I mean issues still here, Rachel, is that you know when you reported earlier, there were issues with being able to process the very few people who were detained yesterday. Was just a lot more people. So we`re just sort of taking a wait-and-see attitude to see what happens, as this crowd, I mean a lot of this is press, but there are a lot of people here too that are just not dispersing. RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: Joy Reid, you`re doing great work, stay where you are as best as you can, obviously, stay safe. And we`re going to be going back to you through the night as we see this curfew go into effect. Great work Joy, well done. And that curfew is now in effect in Baltimore. You see Joy Reid, we`ve got other reporters out there in the middle of it in Baltimore right now, our coverage continues now with Lawrence O`Donnell. Good evening Lawrence. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Rachel, thank you. MADDOW: Of course -- O`DONNELL: We`re continuing our live coverage of what is now the second consecutive night of curfew in Baltimore. That curfew has just began within the last minute. Went into effect at 10:00 p.m. last night, and the curfew worked smoothly after police cleared disturbance of the corner of Pennsylvania Avenue, North Ave, the -- got about 20 minutes into the curfew last night. And by the end of the first hour of last night`s first curfew, Baltimore was calm and remained calm throughout the night and today. Tonight`s curfew follows another day of peaceful protests and now rebuilding in Baltimore. It was a day filled with positive images of a city repairing and rebuilding itself. We will be showing you those images throughout this program. Let`s go now to Msnbc`s Toure who is there in Baltimore. Toure, where are you located and what is happening there now as the curfew begins again? TOURE NEBLETT, MSNBC: Lawrence, I`m right at the corner of North and Pennsylvania where we were last night. At this moment, there`s a lot of people still out here. There`s a lot of cops arrayed out here, things have calmed down right now, but within the last ten minutes, there was something -- a sort of tense altercation. We had Elijah Cummings was out here with a bullhorn telling people, go home, go home, and there were some guys from the street who seemed to live around here or near here, started a scuffle and it became very large fairly quickly, and there were about 20-25 people, pushing, arguing, yelling. You know, it seemed like the moment might blow up any second, we couldn`t tell, Elijah Cummings was yelling, no violence, no violence, it was in the middle of the intersection. And the police were restrained throughout this. They didn`t really respond to it until the scuffle seems to sort of dissipate almost on its own. The folks in the scuffle ended it themselves, pulling out the folks who were the most angry. And at that point, the police on one end of North made a wall and on the other end of North, they made a sort of long filed line, such that the security consulted with us. Had not really ever seen before, but they just stayed there and after a few minutes, they ended that line. They`re still in a sort of filed line on one side, but again, they saw a -- REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: Let`s go home! NEBLETT: Skirmish beginning and -- CUMMINGS: Let`s go home! NEBLETT: They did not respond. Elijah Cummings is here -- CUMMINGS: Let`s -- NEBLETT: As you can see with the bullhorn asking people -- CUMMINGS: Let`s go home! NEBLETT: To go home. There are people here, telling people, go home -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes -- NEBLETT: And there`s people here who are sort of standing around, there`s also a lot of media out here as well, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Toure, how does the police presence compare to last night at that location? NEBLETT: It`s a -- look, I think there is a less intense police presence at this moment. Last night, along north here, on this side of north, if we can pan over this side, there was a wall, it seemed very intense, although they were restrained. Tonight, again, they`re in a file line, they are further back, they are less intense, less aggressive-seeming, again, last night they were restrained, tonight, so far, they are very restrained. They`re not doing -- they`re not having an aggressive formation at all. So again, it seems that they`re giving folks a chance to blow off some steam. O`DONNELL: Toure, is the National Guard present? NEBLETT: I have not seen the National Guard here at this corner at all. In my personal travels around Baltimore through these last couple of days, I have not seen the National Guard at all. I have seen -- well, I have seen the National Guard over at City Hall, but I have not seen them at this location. O`DONNELL: And Toure, what is -- what is the effect that seems to be a police helicopter above that`s shining that spotlight down there, that`s a checkmate they were not using last night in that location. Is that helping at this point? NEBLETT: I do see several police helicopters in the air there. Over there, they`re at a higher altitude than they were last night. Last night, they were lower. If people were on roof tops, they really disliked that and they were booming at people, get off the roofs. And those people that I saw on the roofs were not being violent or aggressive, but they really disliked that and they were really intent on getting people off of roofs. Tonight, they`re flying higher. They`re just sort of flying around, you know, it creates an intense atmosphere, but they`re not really doing anything right now. It seems that they`re allowing folks to be in this area. Although, I can - - it`s a lot of media in this area. There are some citizens here, but it`s a lot of media. I see Elijah Cummings -- around quite a bit, trying to get folks to go home. You know, but there`s a lot of media out here right now, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Thanks Toure, we`re joined now by Captain Eric Kowalczyk of the Baltimore Police Department. Captain Kowalczyk, did you learn lessons last night that are informing how you are beginning the curfew tonight? ERIC KOWALCZYK, POLICE CAPTAIN, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Good evening. You know, what we`ve said consistently is that we`re going to evaluate our deployments on a case by case, hour by hour, incident by incident basis and try to make the best informed decisions that we can. I think what you`ve seen from our officers at the beginning of this unfortunate incident is an incredible degree of restraint and professionalism as we`ve moved forward. We have an obligation to protect life, that is our highest concern, and we are going to move carefully, so that we`re doing just that. O`DONNELL: Captain, I have to ask you about a report that`s just breaking in "The Washington Post". Which says -- and this is reading directly from "The Washington Post". "A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray banging against the walls of the vehicle and believed that he was intentionally trying to injure himself according to a police document obtained by "The Washington Post." That statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court." Captain, what do you know about how a document like that would have leaked at this time? KOWALCZYK: You know, it`s very difficult to speculate about that. What we know is that we have a very dedicated team that`s been working incredibly hard to get to the truth of what happened here. We have that obligation to the Gray family, we have that obligation to the city of Baltimore to find the truth. And we had -- we talked earlier this afternoon about the fact that throughout the day they have been doing an overwhelmingly comprehensive review of the information that they have. Trying to make this investigation as tight, accurate and timely as we can. O`DONNELL: What is the first point at which you would expect the Police Department would be able to release more information about what happened, information in any form? KOWALCZYK: You know, what we have tried to do since the beginning of this unfortunate incident, is put out as much information as we can. And a lot of the experts that have talked about this particular case have mentioned the fact that we are putting out more information than we should have maybe put out. For us, it was very important from the onset to keep the public as informed as possible, to make sure that they knew that we understood the seriousness of the situation, the concern and angst in the community and moved to address that. At the same time, this is a criminal investigation and there is evidence that has to be preserved. We do that in all of our criminal cases. And so we have tried to find the balance of releasing as much information as we can as we are able to throughout the course of this investigation and we`ve been doing that consistently, even uploading almost 26 hours of footage on to our YouTube site. O`DONNELL: And what about written police reports in this case? Have all of the officers who participated in the arrest of Freddie Gray, have they all filed written reports? KOWALCZYK: You know, I wish that I could get into the particulars of the investigation. I know the concern that not only Baltimore has, but that the rest of the country has surrounding this investigation. But again, the evidence, the details of this investigation will come out as they are able to come out. But for us right now, it`s about conducting an accurate, timely investigation, making sure that we do it with a sense of urgency, and then ensuring that the findings, the evidence that is gathered is saved for any sort of prosecution that may or may not take place. O`DONNELL: Captain Kowalczyk, "The Washington Post" reports that the other arrestee who was in that van with Freddie Gray says that he could only hear what was happening on the other side of the van, that he couldn`t see. Is that the way it is inside those vans that there`s a partition from one side to the other. And one arrestee cannot see what the other one is doing? KOWALCZYK: You know, what we have tried to do from the onset is actually not talk about the interior of the van. What we don`t want to do is create conjecture. We don`t want the politics to have misinformation or to begin to theorize, we need to be able to allow the investigative team to look at all the evidence, to interview witnesses, to be able to talk to people and be able to verify and validate the information that they`re getting. I know that, that doesn`t answer the question and I know that that doesn`t address the concerns that people have right now. We hear that, that is why we have moved to release as much information as we could. More than we have in any other case before this one, so that we could try to meet the public`s expectations of what they want to hear. Knowing that everyone from the officers in the police department all the way through people across the country want answers in this case. We want answers in this case, but we want to make sure that it`s done correctly. O`DONNELL: Captain Kowalczyk, are all of the vans that you used to transport arrestees, the Ford, I believe this is a Ford van, are they all outfitted the same way inside? KOWALCZYK: Yes, our fleet is pretty much the same throughout, there are minor variations depending on age, but by and large, they`re pretty much the same. O`DONNELL: I`m just struggling with what it could possibly compromise to simply reveal whether one arrestee can see the other on one side of that partition. I mean is that partition something you can see through or not? KOWALCZYK: Well -- and I understand that. And what happens is as we go down and look at every piece of information and we try to figure out, does this compromise the investigation or does it not? And at the end of the day, that`s a decision that`s left to the people that are actually investigating the case; the people that are conducting the interviews, putting together the fact, both pairing all of their evidence into the totality of the circumstances. And so for me to make that decision to talk to you about what anything looks like, what any of the evidence is without giving the investigators that opportunity to weigh in would be me potentially compromising that case. And I understand the frustration. I get it. I`m a person who spends my day trying to share information with the public. And so, for me not to be able to provide as much information as possible, I understand the frustrations that`s there. And we`re talking about a community, a city, a family that is dealing with the loss of a life, and there is no more -- there is no situation that we take more seriously than life. That has been the mission and the mantra of this police department for the last two and a half years, is to have a reverence for life. And I and this police department, we don`t want to do anything that could potentially compromise this case. O`DONNELL: Captain Kowalczyk, what would you say to people, observers who are already interpreting this as a leak designed to, in effect, help the police officers who are involved with this case. It is a leak that in effect seems to be saying Freddie Gray did it to himself? KOWALCZYK: I think that what I would say is that we promised from the outset, from what you have seen consistently from this organization, is that, we would follow the facts wherever they were. It`s been the history under Commissioner Batts that, that is what we do, we are not afraid to expose ourselves to outside review. We have already said that at the beginning of this incident, we would bring in outside experts to look at not only the situation that led up to, and during Mr. Gray`s tragic passing. But also our investigation and how we conducted ourselves during the course of that investigation and we expect that to be done by outside experts. We also know that the Department of Justices have been looking at this case as well. We have made an absolute commitment to the people of Baltimore, to the people of Maryland, to the Freddie Gray family, that we would do this investigation as openly and transparently and have as much accountability to the people as we could. And that`s what we`re committed to doing. O`DONNELL: Captain, what can you say tonight about a possible timetable for the release of more information? Do you see something on the horizon where you could -- you could suggest at that point, there might be a release of more information? KOWALCZYK: No, and I know that`s the question on everybody`s mind right now. I`m not in a position to make that determination. We let our investigators who have been looking and going through all the evidence that they have all day long, they make that determination. It`s their responsibility to investigate this case thoroughly, accurately, to have accountability for their investigation, we let them make those decisions. O`DONNELL: And captain, last week, they developed the notion that by May 1st, since this is what Commissioner Batts ineffectively promised that by May 1st, the police investigation would be essentially complete. There was an expectation building that they would therefore on Friday, this week, be a release of information. Could you clarify for us now, what to expect on Friday if that investigation is completed? KOWALCZYK: What I can tell you is that the May 1st deadline was the commissioner stating that we are going to move with a sense of urgency. That we are going to devote an unprecedented number of resources to this investigation, to make sure that it was done not only accurately, not only that we got to the -- as close to the truth and as close to the answers as we can get. But that we did so with a sense of urgency. And I understand the -- that we`ve gotten closer to that date. The concern and the questions have begun to build about what kind of information is going to be released. It would be very premature of me to comment until that comprehensive review is done about any sort of evidence that might be able to be released. It`s just the integrity of the investigation is the most important thing that we have right now. When we`re talking about the loss of a human life, when we`re talking about a family that`s in mourning, we have to get this right. O`DONNELL: Captain Kowalczyk, on our screen right now, Congressman Elijah Cummings is out there at the corner of Pennsylvania and North addressing the crowd who remain at this point 16 minutes into violation of the curfew. Similar to last night at this stage, probably more people -- KOWALCZYK: Right -- O`DONNELL: Would you stay with us for just a minute while we listen to Congressman Cummings, because I want to ask you how helpful Congressman Cummings and others have been to the police on this. We`re going to come back to you within the minute. CUMMINGS: Is it -- KOWALCZYK: Sure -- CUMMINGS: Criminals last civil rights investigation. We feel very confident in what she is doing. She made it very clear that it is a top priority for her. But we also want you to know -- we also want you to know that we feel the pain of our constituents and we want to make things better and we will. This is Senator Catherine Pugh who represents this area, Cathy. SEN. CATHERINE PUGH (D), MARYLAND: Right, I just want to first thank all the folks who stood out here all day with us, the gentleman who is standing behind me who have been with me from day one, who stood here and made sure that the crowd here dispersed quietly -- O`DONNELL: Captain Kowalczyk, the police did do, obviously a very effective job with the curfew last night, but you did not do it alone. There was a tremendous amount of help from the 300 men who came out yesterday afternoon, yesterday during the day. A tremendous amount of community cooperation that we saw all day. And help from people like Congressman Cummings out there talking directly to people. And by the way, not talking to cameras, we couldn`t get him on our camera last night because he was talking directly to constituents trying to send them home. How helpful has it felt to you in the Baltimore Police Department to have that kind of real community support as your front line, in effect, protecting in the last 24 hours your officers from people who might want to confront them? KOWALCZYK: You know, I`m so very glad that you asked me that question. What very often happens in cases like this is the community gets lost behind the questions and the theories that take place. Right now, there is a -- a civil rights champion that is trying to convey the message from -- that this is being done as appropriately as it can be. We saw people standing in between protesters and police officers so that the violence and the destruction wouldn`t spread. We`ve had members of the community bringing officers food and water as they`ve deployed to various areas that were impacted by violence. The community support is overwhelming and incredibly welcome. What we have tried to tell the nation is that Baltimore is a city that has had 40 years of peaceful protests. This is a city that is not afraid to come out and share how it feels about issues. This is a city that is not unaccustomed to seeing groups of people gather to let -- to voice their frustrations and their concerns. The violence is not Baltimore, is not who we are as a city, is not what we represent, it`s not the image that we want to show to the world. So what you`re seeing with our community coming out and not only supporting the officers that are out on the street, protecting their communities, but supporting each other and standing there for each other is invaluable and it speaks to what it truly means to be from Baltimore. O`DONNELL: Captain Eric Kowalczyk of the Boston -- of the Baltimore Police Department, thank you very much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it. KOWALCZYK: Thank you sir. O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by phone by Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for -- and the "Nbc" affiliate "Wbal" in Baltimore. She`s covering the investigation of the death of Freddie Gray. Jayne, your reaction to tonight`s report in "The Washington Post" which in effect is a leaked document of a police detective`s account, which in effect says Freddie Gray did it to himself. I`m going to read it again to the audience here. The lead of "The Washington Post" article breaking within the hour is, "a prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray banging against the walls of the vehicle. And believed that he was intentionally trying to injure himself according to a police document obtained by "The Washington Post"." Jayne, your reaction? JAYNE MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WBAL-TV: We reported previously, long before this, that by the time that stop is made to pick up that prisoner, that according to our sources, Freddie Gray was unresponsive. On April 23rd -- O`DONNELL: And Jayne -- and Jayne, just a -- just a -- MILLER: This was out -- O`DONNELL: Jayne, just to -- MILLER: Ten days ago -- O`DONNELL: Just to stop there for a second -- MILLER: OK -- O`DONNELL: What you`re saying is, Freddie Gray was first alone in the van, there was no second arrestee -- MILLER: Oh, no, the second prisoner is only in the van, Lawrence, for the last five minutes of the ride. O`DONNELL: OK, so how long was he alone in the van before the second prisoner gets in the van? MILLER: He was alone in the van about 8:42 on the morning of April 12th until sometime around, I want to say 9:18, I don`t have the exact timeline here in front of me. We did -- we just did a story today on that fourth stop, which is where that prisoner gets on board. And you can see several Baltimore City police officers looking into Freddie Gray`s side of the van with the van door open really looking -- I mean looking inside the van. And the Police Department has acknowledged that there were at least two stops -- well, actually three, if you count the first one, but the third and fourth stops at which point, the Baltimore police officers probably should have called the medic. So we have reported that at that stop where the fourth -- where the other prisoner gets on board, which is the fourth stop, that Freddie Gray was unresponsive. O`DONNELL: And Jayne, what do you make of this report in "The Washington Post" which says -- MILLER: I am aware of where that information comes from, I am aware of the report, I`ve been aware of that information for some time, but the timeline and the evidence and the information that we have developed in this story does not match. O`DONNELL: And it sounds like to me, Jayne, based on the timeline you`ve developed, it makes the information a lot less interesting than it appears in "The Washington Post" article. In that, what this article does not seem to say is that Freddie Gray was alone in that van for most of the time he was in that van. MILLER: If you look at the video that has been made -- now made public by the city of Baltimore, this -- it comes from their -- they have an expensive system of cameras, you can see the -- you can see where that prisoner is loaded and you can see the timeline. And after it finish loading a full 30 minutes after Freddie Gray is in that van. So, he`s only in the van for four or five minutes -- four or five-six minutes. I also on April 23rd was told by the Baltimore Police Department and I believe the "Associated Press" was told the same account that, that prisoner`s account was that for the short amount of time that he was in the van, it was relatively quiet from the other side of the van and the ride was smooth. O`DONNELL: Well, this is reported to be an affidavit apparently -- MILLER: Correct, for a search warrant -- O`DONNELL: But -- so it`s actually not an affidavit from the prisoner, it`s an affidavit from a police detective who is summarizing what a -- what this prisoner has told him. MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: But that in your read is in conflict what you -- with what you have discovered this prisoner was reported to have said prior to this affidavit. MILLER: That is correct, it is inconsistent with what -- with what we have reported in the past, that is correct. And it is -- it is also inconsistent in some ways with the -- look, if you are -- if you have a prisoner in the back of a police van who is banging his head against the wall and who is disruptive in that regard when you see him or when you open the door. First of all, but to open the door, the interior door of a police van is to diminish your security, so that`s not something you do. But in the video, you can clearly see that these officers open the door, the interior door of his side of the van. And they`re peering in to look at him. Now, if you`ve got a disruptive prisoner banging themselves around, you think they`re going to look to nonchalant. I think that the evidence on the video corroborate that he was in probably deteriorating shape. O`DONNELL: And Jayne, you can confirm for us that it is impossible for one prisoner to see another prisoner on the other side of the van? MILLER: I believe that the van is a solid metal. There is -- you can -- it`s like a metal grate between the driver`s portion and the rest of the van. But the -- but the -- but the two sides in the van are separated by metal so that you can allow mixed gender prisoners in the van, that`s what -- that`s why they went with that system. And you can seat about four people in the van at one time. O`DONNELL: OK, Jayne -- MILLER: But I`m reading my -- I`m reading what I tweeted on the night of April 23rd, a couple of days, you know, into this after Freddie Gray died. And he -- that`s what the police commissioner reported to us, was that the account of the second prisoner is that he heard very little from the other side of the van. And at that portion of the ride, the driver was not erratic. O`DONNELL: Yes, and so Jayne, the second prisoner being the most important non-police witness in the case, his -- MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: That second prisoner`s position is characterized publicly by the Police -- MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: Commissioner six days ago in a way -- MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: That is in complete contradiction to an -- a police affidavit - - MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: Reported in "The Washington Post" as breaking news tonight. MILLER: Yes, if I seem a little terse -- (LAUGHTER) Because this case has been muddied by a tremendous amount of misinformation. I mean, overwhelming amount of misinformation. Not depriving. And I spend half my day trying to -- I get calls from a lot of people saying, is this true? Is this true? Is this true? And we stand by our reporting, no question -- O`DONNELL: Jayne -- MILLER: And we have been reporting consistently that by the time that prisoner is loaded, Freddie Gray is not responding. (CROSSTALK) O`DONNELL: Jayne, did you -- did you -- could you characterize the misinformation in terms of, is it fair to say that a lot of the misinformation that`s floating around is coming out in an attempt of defense of police officers? MILLER: Well, and I -- I mean, I`m not going to characterize it as one thing or another. There is certainly an effort to diminish the severity of this case. And what -- this is what we know and this is what we reported. This is one of these cases where it may turn out that the video that`s available is actually not helpful. It`s helpful, but it`s not complete. And therefore, it`s somewhat harmful. Because everybody thinks that when they see him being dragged into the van, he`s got a broken leg, he`s got injury before he gets into the van. But that`s not what the medical evidence shows in this case. The medical evidence in this case, according to the autopsy that we know of at this point, is that he suffered a severe neck injury, very similar to what you suffer in a car accident. So the question is, so what did they -- what happened in that van that caused him to suffer that injury? I have been told by medical experts that it`s virtually impossible to do that kind of injury on your own. This is slamming your head against the wall on the side of the van which is metal, and would have to have additional injury, first of all, they would show it, which is does not exist to my knowledge in this case. And also an awful lot of energy, and energy is the key word in this kind of energy -- in this kind of injury. Because energy is what the speed of a vehicle -- and I don`t mean that the vehicle was going 80 miles an hour, I just mean, the momentum of the vehicle (INAUDIBLE) in an -- in an injury like this. O`DONNELL: Yes, when that -- MILLER: So -- O`DONNELL: When that vehicle is -- (CROSSTALK) Suddenly it comes to a stop, yes. MILLER: Correct -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- MILLER: To suggest that he somehow was able to inflict this kind of harmful injury on his own is a stretch -- O`DONNELL: OK -- MILLER: According to the medical experts that have spoken. O`DONNELL: Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for "Nbc`s" affiliate "Wbal" in Baltimore. Jayne Miller, thank you once again for invaluable reporting here tonight on the LAST WORD. Really appreciate it. MILLER: Thank you. O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Mary Koch. She is an attorney for the Gray family. Mary Koch, have you been able to read this account in "The Washington Post" tonight that is being presented as breaking news which as I`ve characterized and I think the article all but characterizes as Freddie Gray did it to himself. I`m going to just read that first line of the article one more time in the "Washington Post" tonight. "A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray banging against the walls of the vehicle and believed that he was intentionally trying to injure himself, according to a police document obtained by the `Washington Post.`" Mary Koch, your reaction? MARY KOCH, FREDDIE GRAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: My reaction is that, as attorneys, we don`t have the luxury of speculating on bits and pieces of evidence and things that are reported third and fourth hand. And we have unfortunately been fed pieces of information and those pieces of information are enough to create conversations, but not give answers. And so we are in the position where we cannot speculate on things that are rumor, we cannot speculate on things that may be couched as -- as probable cause in the affidavit for a warrant. We need to see the evidence and when we see all of the evidence and we have an opportunity to review it, then we can come to some conclusions. But right now, it rang speculation at this point. O`DONNELL: And according to the article, this is a -- this document has been search warranted. It`s in an application for a search warrant and that search warrant is for the uniform that one of the officers was wearing and that indicates they`re interested in what DNA evidence might be on that uniform. In your experience, does it take a search want to get a police officer to simply hand over his uniform? KOCH: Well, at this point, I would say this is a criminal investigation and anything which he has a privacy interest in, you have to obtain a search and seizure warrant. I would say that if you are going to be, you know, (INAUDIBLE) and be careful, you`re going to obtain a search and seizure so that there`s no question later on that if, indeed, there was evidence there that was obtained in the course of the investigation, that that evidence can be used. And so I would suspect in a high profile case like this, where you`re doing an investigation, prudence would dictate that you would get a search and seizure warrant if there was any question at all about any implication of Fourth Amendment rights. O`DONNELL: Mary Koch, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it. KOCH: Thank you for having me. Have a good night. O`DONNELL: We`re going to go back to the streets of Baltimore where MSNBC`s Joy Reid is standing by. Joy, what is the situation there now? JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lawrence, you can hear fire truck going past us. Basically, the sounds of tonight has been a lot of sirens, a lot of drones overheard. But earlier we`re broadcasting the announcement that the curfew had begun and that anyone caught on the street will be arrest. What we now see remaining on the street here at North and Pennsylvania in West Baltimore are mainly us, mainly media at this point. Just a few people who are still out here either being interviewed or just sort of straggling past the curfew. A few tense moments earlier this evening when a protest that was essentially across the street from me went on very close to the curfew. And Congressman Elijah Cummings who live in this neighborhood, he lives just a few blocks away from here, came out with a couple of members of his staff and some other community leaders with a bull horn to try to urge people to disperse. He was actually just behind me wrapping up. And one of the interesting things, Lawrence, that happened tonight is that you really did see the power of somebody with authority but also authenticity who`s local because the first thing that Congressman Cummings did when he got here was to meet with the police commander here and talk to him about the tactics that were going to be used with the people who are remaining out. It was so packed here it was hard to believe that they were going to be cleared by 10:00. But he was able to talk with the commander and there was a show of force by police officers who were wearing their full armor and the shield. They lined themselves up over here on North, they made sort of a line and they did move in. There were a couple sort of minor skirmishes. But ultimately, very calm reaction by the police here. And for the most part, people dispersed. There were a few protesters left out here, but for the most part, things are starting to wind down. But the drones are still going. O`DONNELL: And, Joy, no reports of arrests so far by the police department. They haven`t released any in the -- and last night on Twitter they were pretty active about that and keeping us posted. So it looks like tonight, the curfew has begun. We`re 35 minutes into it and things are even calmer than they were last night. At this point last night, Joy, it looked like this thing could tip. That intersection there was filled with smoke. It looked like there could be a confrontation that was going to get worse. And by 11:00 p.m., it had completely cleared out and everything remained peaceful. Basically right to this point. REID: Yes. And I can tell you that there was a few minutes here where this kind of felt like because there was a group particularly of young men, they were part of the protests and some weren`t. They were sort of milling around what had been an earlier, very vocal protest with music going and kind of almost a festive atmosphere to the protests. But as it lingered on and on and on, the protest organizers left and what was left here were a lot of particularly young men who are simply I think just showing a sense of defiance at this idea that they weren`t allowed to be out on the streets in their neighborhood. And I think it was more that than anything else. You just saw a group of young men. It was a pretty big group of people and also some protesters who were at, you know, they were staying out here and being consistent, saying they wanted to be out here. So it was a little tense at one point. There was sort of a scuffle that you couldn`t really tell what happened. But I`ll tell you, on the arrest front, Lawrence, you know, there was that small number of people who were arrested yesterday. Police have had to let people go early because they were having trouble processing paperwork. It was really not going to happen that they were going to be able to take in large amount of people here if they`re intake process is that slow. But so far, right now, things are looking pretty good here. O`DONNELL: Joy Reid, thank you very much for that report. We`re joined now by MSNBC`s Trymaine Lee. Trymaine, what`s the situation where you are tonight? TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I`ll tell you, much like Joy is -- where Joy is located now, it`s relatively quiet out here, which is much different than what it was about three hours ago, if not less, when hundreds of protesters of a very diverse group, perhaps the largest and most diverse group of protesters that we`ve been seen so far marched from Penn Station to city hall, gathered here for a while, chanted and then actually marched back to Penn Station. And so since then, though, the crowd has largely dissipated. There are few people out here. Behind me there are members of the National Guard and police officers here. But one person that I did notice here was Thomas Battle. He is with the DOJ`s Community Relations Service. Now they dropped in communities where there`s turmoil. Stanford, Florida after Trayvon Martin`s death, Ferguson after Michael Brown, North Charleston, he was here. And I also spoke to a DOJ spokesman earlier asking if AG Lynch would be showing up. That hasn`t been determined yet. But so clearly she`s stepping into office kind of knee deep in this situation and, you know, as everyone waits to see how this thing plays out. O`DONNELL: Trymaine, we are seeing some movement of police officers but they -- there`s nothing urge going on, they just seem to be re-assembling and re-deploying and certain positions and certain street corners. The protests today, I saw an awful lot of Johns Hopkins T-shirts on those students. It was a multi-racial protest, for sure. It was not something that seemed to come out of the neighborhood where all of this began. LEE: No, that`s for certain. And it was billed as such. High school students and college students. And that was very much the tone. It was kind of a -- almost like a unity march. There are people from different aspects, different walks of life. Clearly all those young people were not from West Baltimore where this went down and where we`ve seen the rioting, and where we`re seeing the police amassing. Just by -- purely by the demographics, again white and black joined together. So that seems to be an indication of a couple of things. One, that it was just very well organized, very well planned. But also it could mean that organizers here on the ground are forming coalitions that hopefully kind of go beyond the original kind of organic organization of people who are angry in the streets over the ongoing concerns about police and the Freddie Gray case, but perhaps moving forward. And the big thing, also, leading into tonight, was how would people come out and how would law enforcement respond? Tonight, they`re all going it`s all clear. O`DONNELL: Trymaine Lee, thank you very much for joining us tonight. LEE: Thank you. O`DONNELL: The city of Baltimore, the unemployment picture is not as good as the national unemployment picture. The unemployment rate is currently 8.7 percent. The median household income in the city of Baltimore is $41,000. But in the area where Freddie Gray lived, the unemployment rate is at 21 percent. The median household income is $24,000. A 55 percent there live below the poverty line. One in three buildings are vacant or abandoned in that neighborhood. And nearly two-thirds of the residents there have something less than a high school diploma. The "Baltimore Sun" described that neighborhood as a "neighborhood where generations of crushing poverty and the war on drugs, combined to rob countless young people like Freddie Gray of meaningful opportunities. The neighborhood is home to more inmates in the Maryland correctional system than any other. That report from the "Baltimore Sun." Joining us now is D. Watkins, an author and lifelong resident of Baltimore. He wrote an op-ed for today`s "New York Times" titled, "Baltimore, We`re All Freddie Gray." Also joining us Michael Fletcher, reporter for "The Washington Post." He has lived in Baltimore for more than 30 years and wrote about living in that city for "The Washington Post." I just want to get both of your reactions to the positive turn that Baltimore took today. I have promised the audience at the beginning of the program that I was going to show a lot of that imagery. That was in the expectation that we wouldn`t be rolling through this -- all of this live coverage necessarily of what`s going on. We`re going to get to that certainly by the end of the program. But each of you, please, your reactions to how this city has turned the corner today. MICHAEL FLETCHER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, to me, really since yesterday it`s been the Baltimore I know and the city that I`ve chosen to live in, you know, if I choose to live elsewhere. What we saw on Monday I think was -- it was something that sort of spun out of control. But the Baltimore I`m seeing now is kind of the city, you know, the more positive city of neighborhoods, a place where, you know, people come together. But that said, I don`t know that we`re out of the woods. I think there`s a lot of concern about where this investigation is going to go, what the police and the state`s attorney end up doing. And so I worry about that because I think if people don`t feel like justice is served, we could find ourselves slipping back. D. WATKINS, LIFE-LONG RESIDENT OF BALTIMORE: The protests today were beautiful. I`m very, very inspired by them. Like you guys said earlier in the program, it was a diverse mix of people. If you walked out of here, you wouldn`t think out of these crazy things were going on right now. Hopefully we can keep the peace and, you know, celebrate the life of Freddie and hope that he gets justice. O`DONNELL: D. Watkins, you talk today in your op-ed piece in "The Times" about the very first violent situation that developed in all of this, which was Saturday night, and it was down near where the Red Sox and the Orioles were playing. Tell us about that. Tell us about how that started, how that developed. You were there. WATKINS: Yes, it was a group of peaceful protesters. We were right here at city hall and we marched down to Camden Yards where the Orioles play and a lot of people who were attending the baseball games just started chanting racial slurs. And a lot of us were already mixed up with the emotions and everything that happened to Freddie and, you know, the way the case is being handled that it just -- it caused a clash and, you know, some people got hurt. O`DONNELL: And Michael Fletcher, you -- it`s a choice for you to live in Baltimore, it`s some distance from "The Washington Post." Why do you -- why have you made that choice and continue to make that choice? FLETCHER: Well, it`s sort of a family thing. Formerly I was a reporter at the "Baltimore Sun" for 13 years. And that`s what brought me to Baltimore initially. I got married in Baltimore. My wife is not from here but she ended up working in the school system. My children were born here. They like the city, they were in school. So when I changed jobs, I didn`t want to uproot my family. That was the initial choice. But even as the years have gone by, that`s been 20 years now that I`ve been at "The Post." The feeling has been that I enjoy this city. In some ways it`s anti-Washington, it`s a very unpretentious city. A city of neighborhoods. I grew up in New York City and I kind of like a city that has a working class and Baltimore has that. O`DONNELL: We`re looking right now at live pictures of a crowd in New York City. There have been protests throughout the country today. New York City, Minneapolis, Boston, several other locations. This is a shot in New York City where there may be a little bit of difficulty going on. We can`t quite make out what it is. There seem to be some police officers involved, a little bit of shoving. But we really don`t have an image where we can or I can give you any better information than your eyes can about what you`re seeing there in the dark partially illuminated. But that is New York City. That is not happening in Baltimore where the curfew seems to be in effect. We`re 44 minutes into that curfew in Baltimore. The curfew is holding. That is the corner of North Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue where there was some stress at this point last night, to put it mildly. And it was pretty much resolved by 44 minutes into the curfew last night and tonight there really hasn`t been any struggle securing the peace in that area tonight at all. It seems to be that the community has taken to this curfew in a way that they are now conforming with it without any real problems starting shortly after 10:00 as always. There`s been two nights in a row, there`s been a little buffer zone that the police have certainly allowed for people who have not left immediately. We`re going to go to this New York City protest that`s going on right now in Manhattan. This is Amanda Sakuma, an MSNBC reporter who`s joining us there. Amanda, what`s happening there? AMANDA SAKUMA, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lawrence. There`s a large (INAUDIBLE) that`s been marching on 10th Avenue here in Manhattan. They met with other groups that were in -- excuse me, Times Square, which - - the iconic Times Square of New York City. Now we are stuck here on 36th Street. There have been some folks that tried going into a vacant parking lot where police chased after them. There are now several people being taken into custody by police. Basically, the protesters have been confined to the sidewalk whenever they try to (INAUDIBLE) to the roadway. That`s usually when the police come in. They`ve been arresting people, taking them off one by one. We`ve seen some members of the press appear to be taken into custody. We have seen several skirmishes with the police when we are in Times Square. Many of the protesters would link arms to make it difficult for the police officers to single out people for arrest. And in that bit was pushback on the people. There is a point where I see people and my feet weren`t even on the ground. There were so many people within this crowd. We saw a police officer throw punches at a protester that`s been caught on our cameras. So it`s been a very tense evening that started out of various people protests. It began at 6:00 p.m. tonight at Union Square where there were several members of families who have had loved killed in those. Five police officers, they spoke of peace, but they also were trying to raise and rally the crowd. It`s not shy marching on the street and only made it about half a block before the (INAUDIBLE) that police and since them, it`s just been a very tense standoff. O`DONNELL: Amanda, do you have an estimate of the total number of people who`ve been involved in this protest since it began? SAKUMA: It`s most definitely within the hundreds by some estimates. For an organizer, they put it high at about 1500. I would say it was closer to about 700. They did have to disperse into several groups after the early skirmishes after the police blocked the roadways. And it did kind of dissipate the crowd and it definitely split them up. They`ve been able to reunite and they got this strength in number since but it`s still a very tight crowd here, people, a very diverse crowd, young and old. But it`s primarily young. They are -- they`re changing, "From Baltimore to New York, New York is Baltimore. " And so they`re really taking this as an act of solidarity with everything that`s been going on this week. O`DONNELL: Amanda, both of our shots of this right show the people walking. Are they walking away? Are they walking in the direction that the police want them to? Are they walking away from confrontation basically? SAKUMA: It`s been a mixture. They have basically tried to go wherever the police are not. They`ve been trying to take over the streets. They`ve been saying, whose streets, our streets, whose streets, our streets. And that`s their chant and they`re really trying to really follow to it. It`s been very difficult, I think. The police have done a pretty tight -- kept it very tight and kept them in close as soon as those sidewalks. So far it doesn`t like the protesters are actively trying to instigate any type of violence towards the police. They kind of seem as if they want to have free reign of the streets to block the traffic and to really take over. But so far the police have been able to (INAUDIBLE) pretty much every effort. O`DONNELL: Thank you, Amanda Sakuma. We`re going to come back to this as needed but it seems to be a situation in New York City involving a small group of protesters. As you can see there on the screen, there`s something breaking out. But that`s not among police. That`s just people on the streets in New York. Now it has been dragged toward the police. There`s now a police officer involved. That white shirt that you can see there. There`s -- it looks like there`s an arrest happening right there. Amanda, stay with us because we do have a little action developing here on this. The crowd seems to be a crowd of a hundred or more, 150 people maximum at that corner right now. Well, at least one person seems to be under arrest, being arrested at this moment. That doesn`t seem to be sparking any big negative reaction from that crowd at this moment. There`s no -- there`s no surge toward the police in any way because of that. Can you -- can you see any of this from where you are, Amanda? SAKUMA: Yes, yes. But I would say that that is the typical tactic here. I think people have been openly defying the police orders. They`ve been told not to go into the roadways. That if they are, there will be subject to arrest. Many have been kind of openly crowding that in a sense. But I wouldn`t say that they have ever taken an aggressive -- trying to taunt or become arrested. They have been trying to kind of take over the street and the police have been there to stop them and they`ve been them to press them back up against the barricades. So far the people have been able to pick off folks one by one and kind of target those that they think are aggressively defying the orders to stay on the streets. Earlier today, they handed out flyers to the people who gathered in Union Square, basically giving them a warning in paper that if they were to be in the roadways, if they were to defy these orders, they would be subject for arrest. O`DONNELL: OK. Amanda Sakuma, thank you for that report. I just want to clarify that the video there that you showed that is in brighter light, that`s obviously in daylight. That occurred earlier today with police making some arrests on this protest earlier today. We`re going to take a break here. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: More good things happened in Baltimore today than we could possibly catch on camera beginning with a free concert by the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: We love Baltimore. We love Baltimore. We love Baltimore. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is beautiful. This is Baltimore. This is the way you want the city represented. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to right. Come out on the left. (CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve lived here my whole life. 32 years old. Just here to help. Just here to do whatever I can, whatever I can to help. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You go out and vote. You come and volunteer in your neighborhood. You give back, not just project your anger in a violent way, but do it intelligently. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a need for change. And the first step is step out here and do it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Baltimore City Councilman Carl Stokes. Councilman Stokes, this -- CARL STOKES, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Hi, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: This seems to be the day where we can hope history will record Baltimore turned a corner on this. STOKES: Yes. I think so, Lawrence. But let`s understand and remember. By the way, the Orioles won 8-2. That`s a big deal in Baltimore, also. Nobody saw it, but we did win. So I think so. Again, let`s remember that for eight of the 10 days, we`ve had nothing but great peace, harmony in this town. Thousands of people have been turning out for demonstrations. We`ve had -- it feels like community festivals. It`s a very diverse crowd. Maybe 50-50, 60-40 black white. Bands are playing, the symphony orchestra is out, giving free concerts. It`s a great time in the city. We`ve got this issue of Freddie Gray`s death which is huge and we`re trying to figure it out and we want to bring justice to bare. But I think that the citizens of this city are dealing with this in a very appropriate light. O`DONNELL: And Councilman Stokes, what are your concerns as the week progresses? We know there had been a big build-up of anticipation for the possibility of some kind of police report on Friday. STOKES: Right. O`DONNELL: We`re now being told it is very unlikely we will learn anything more than we already know about Freddie Gray`s death on Friday. STOKES: Yes. That is worrisome because the expectations have been built up that there would be a report, there would be a judgment day sort of. We know that that`s not going to happen. We know that the police report probably won`t be made public, but that it will go straight to the prosecutor`s hands. However, I think many people are hopeful that the police do say that we have enough evidence to show this or that. In other words, in a case against an average citizen, the police would say we`re handing this over to prosecute -- to the prosecutor. We think we have enough evidence to indict or to charge someone with homicide or negligence or murder. And then it`s up to the prosecutor to decide whether or not they will indict. So I think that people hoped to hear the police say they would put the charges up. I don`t know if we`re going to get that. And I think it`s going to be disappointing to people. O`DONNELL: We`re joined now by Joy Reid who`s been on the streets of Baltimore for two days. Joy, in talking to people today, did you feel that they felt like they got a pretty good day behind them yesterday and today was the day where they could really move -- start to move forward? REID: Well, I mean, yes and no, Lawrence. I think that you definitely had a sense of positivity. I think that the Councilman is definitely right. People love Baltimore who live here. And you really got a sense of that. But there`s still this -- you know, people were aggravated by the idea of having to have a curfew. There were people who told me, you know, we feel like things are under control. Why do we still have to have this? But for the most part, they were going to abide by it. But I do think we definitely turned a corner in terms of the police response. There was much more calm. There was a lot more equanimity. We passed one (INAUDIBLE), you know, it was all smiles and hugs. You know, it was very quiet. So I think that definitely the city has turned a corner, but there are still armed police on the streets and tanks and things rolling down and drones flying overhead. That`s not normalcy, but it`s closer. Getting closer. O`DONNELL: Carl Stokes, what does city government have to do in the next couple of weeks? STOKES: I think that we have to show people that we really are willing to turn our depressed neighborhoods around. What that means, it means that we have to show that we`re not just going to spend all of our investment dollars in the Harbor of our city, which is a great place, which is a lovely place. But I think people are concerned not just in black communities, but in white communities across the city that we must start to invest. We have 16,000 or more vacant structures that were formerly homes but we lost 100,000 people in terms of population. I think the city has to show people that we have a plan, not just talk, but that we have a plan and that the budget that we`re going to pass for the next six weeks has to show that we`re putting money into education, more money into recreation, into neighborhoods is in development. I think we have to show that. O`DONNELL: Carl Stokes, we`re out of time. City council member, Carl Stokes, in Baltimore, thank you very much for joining us. STOKES: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Joy Reid, thank you for joining us. I want to give the LAST WORD tonight to a little boy who (INAUDIBLE) Ellis interviewed yesterday near that CVS where they were cleaning up. Let`s listen to him getting tonight`s LAST WORD. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t want all of this to look a mess and I`m like this doesn`t like it never burned down, and I want them to rebuild. (END VIDEO CLIP) END