IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Transcript: The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhle, 6/27/22

Guests: Phil Rucker, Katie Benner, Jill Gibson, A.B. Stoddard, Errin Haines, Barry McCaffrey


New evidence and witness testimony prompt a surprise Jan. 6th committee hearing Tuesday. The continued fallout over the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And the horrifying Russian attack at a Ukraine shopping mall. Justice Clarence Thomas suggested the court could re-examine decisions on access to contraception, same-sex relationships, and same-sex marriage. At least 46 migrants were found dead inside a tractor-trailer in San Antonio in a suspected case of human smuggling.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And then I will join Rachel for MSNBC special primetime coverage recap of the hearing tomorrow night starting at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. And then at 10:00 p.m., we will be back here with another edition of the "LAST WORD". That is tonight`s "LAST WORD". THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.


AYMAN MOHYELDIN, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, new evidence and witness testimony prompted January 6 committee to call a surprise hearing tomorrow as the Feds seize the phone of the former guys lawyer what we`re learning tonight.

Plus, the continued fallout over the reversal of Roe vs. Wade, more states banning abortion with new legal battles already underway, and the scramble for services in multiple states.

Then, the horrifying attack in Ukraine. Russia targeting a crowded shopping mall with world leaders calling it a war crime as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Monday night.

Good evening from New York everyone. I`m Ayman Mohyeldinin for Stephanie Ruhle.

There was an unexpected twist today the January 6 committee switching up its playbook suddenly adding a new surprise hearing for tomorrow afternoon at 1:00 p.m. Eastern so the public can hear from a secret witness.

Just last week, the panel said remaining public hearings would actually be pushed into July. But late this afternoon the committee said this new hearing will focus on quote, recently obtained evidence and receive witness testimony who and what we`ll hear tomorrow remains a mystery at this hour but the short notice of this unexpected hearing has speculation running wild.

We also learned today that the Justice Department has been focusing on John Eastman he is of course the Trump allied lawyer who has become a central figure in the January 6 committee`s investigation. In a court filing, Eastman says that a federal agent executed a search warrant and seized his iPhone in New Mexico last week. Witness testimony from past January 6 hearings indicated that Eastman was instrumental in pushing Pence to overturn the election. And in creating those slates of fake electors in several states that Joe Biden legitimately won.

Federal agents took Eastman`s phone on the same day that they raided the home of former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark. Of course, you may recall, he was central to Trump`s efforts to coerce justice officials into backing false claims of election fraud.

Now meanwhile, the nation is still reacting to the Supreme Court`s decision Friday to end constitutional protection for abortion. Protests were held across the nation all weekend long, even as more restrictions on the procedure go into effect.

And as of tonight, as of right now, abortion is now banned in at least seven states. And this morning, Mississippi`s Attorney General officially certified that his states trigger law making abortions they`re illegal in just 10 days.

In South Carolina, fetal heartbeat law went into effect limiting the procedure once a heartbeat is detected. That`s usually after about six weeks. Now governors in states where abortions will remain legal say that they are ready to provide a safe haven for women seeking abortion care.


GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D) ILLINOIS: We already saw 10,000 last year to exercise their reproductive rights. And we`ve been preparing for this. We`re going to have a special session shortly to look at how we can expand capacity in our state.

GOV. JAY INSLEE (D) WASHINGTON: We want them to know there`s a wall in the West Coast, protecting the women of the West Coast and the citizens that come from these other states.


MOHYELDIN: Now the high court`s ruling is also raising real concerns about the future of other rights in this country. Justice Clarence Thomas has signaled interest in revisiting rulings on things like contraception, same sex marriage and more. Today we heard from the lead plaintiff in the landmark marriage equality case.


AJIM OBERGEFELL, LEAD PLAINTIFF IN CASE THAT LEGALIZED SAME-SEX MARRIAGE: Target has been painted on the back of marriage equality on the back of our ability to enjoy intimate relations with another person in our home in the privacy of our home and not have that be criminalized, not to mention a woman`s right to get birth control. So much of what we have enjoyed in this nation. So much of our civil rights progress is at risk because of this decision.


MOHYELDIN: And this weekend, Senate Democrats wrote to President Biden urging him to take immediate and bold action to protect abortion access in this country. And late today, the Vice President was asked about that.


KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We will do everything within our power as an administration through the executive branch to ensure that women have access to the medication they need and that they will have freedom of travel and that that travel should be unrestricted.


DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Can the administration expand abortion access or abortion services on federal land, meaning provide the access on federal land that might be in and around states that ban abortion?

HARRIS: Is not right now what we are discussing.


MOHYELDIN: As the Biden White House and Democrats consider their next moves, new polling finds continued support for the right to choose in this country. A new NPR Marist poll has found a majority of Americans, 56 percent say that they are opposed to last week`s Supreme Court decision. 40 percent say they support it.

And there is another developing story that we`re following tonight, a tragic one, 46 people are dead found in a big rig in San Antonio, Texas. The state`s Governor Greg Abbott, saying the truck was transporting migrants on a 101 degree day. Three people are now said to be in custody. And the New York Times says the driver apparently abandoned the truck before it`s discovered.

With that, let`s get smarter with the help of our lead off panel. Phil Rucker is Pulitzer Prize winning deputy national editor at the Washington Post, Katie Benner, Justice Department Reporter for the New York Times, and Neal Katyal, Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration who has argued dozens of cases before the US Supreme Court.

Phil, I`m going to start with you with the obvious question about tomorrow. Any clue what we`re about to hear and from and who from tomorrow?

PHIL RUCKER, THE WASHINGTON POST DEPUTY NATIONAL EDITOR: Well, Ayman, the January 6 Committee surprised folks today by announcing there would be this hearing tomorrow that it would include a newly obtained testimony. Clearly what this witness has to say is urgent. And something that the committee felt could not wait until a few weeks into July, which was when they were expected to resume these hearings.

My colleagues at the Washington Post are reporting that one of the motivations for doing this hearing so soon is because of credible threats, security threats that is against this witness. But the committee has been very tight lipped. They`ve not revealed who this witness is yet. And they want people to stay tuned for tomorrow.

The hearing begins at 1:00. And we`ll have to find out tomorrow. What sort of topics that we`ll cover. But we can assume that it should be quite urgent if the committee is scheduling it last minute like this.

MOHYELDIN: And Katie, by Washington standards, the committee has been the January 6 committee has been pretty tight lipped. They`re not releasing a lot of information. And that`s pretty remarkable in a city like Washington, but the chair and the vice chair, they have been pleading for witnesses to step forward, listen to this.


REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS) CHAIRMAN JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: But the fact is there are more people with direct knowledge with evidence germane to our investigation. I asked those who might be on the fence about cooperating to reach out to us.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We think the American people deserve to hear from Mr. Cipollone personally. He should appear before this committee, and we are working to secure his testimony.


MOHYELDIN: Are you hearing anything about why this is all happening under such secrecy? And you know, without any apparent leaks?

KATIE BENNER, THE NEW YORK TIMES JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: You know, part of it is because even though it`s a bipartisan committee, because there are two Republicans on it, there is nobody on the committee that actually opposes the work of the committee, you know, had Kevin McCarthy thought, you know, had a slightly different strategy. He could have had people on this panel who oppose the work, who asked contradictory questions and who in fact, oftentimes when we see leaks would be leaking because they disagreed with what was going on. But because everybody seems to be rowing in the same direction, I think that really helps the panel keep a veil of secrecy around its work that you don`t normally see on Capitol Hill.

Now that said, another thing that we need to look at this panel is that information often begets information. What we`re seeing is actually very similar to what happens when a reporter gets a really big scoop. That has implications for a lot of people. You see, that group of people feel compelled to talk to the reporter, they want to get their sight out, they want to add context. They want to make sure that the full story is told, especially if there`s a lot of national attention on it. Well, that`s exactly what this committee is doing.

They are bringing out not just information that a lot of people already knew and breathing new life into it. They`re adding new information to the record and every time they do it has implications for more people. We are likely to see this with the documentary footage they`ve just gone through with tomorrow surprise witness. And like Bennie Thompson has said there`s a lot of information coming in so they cannot even tell us how many witness hearings, they will be because of this.

MOHYELDIN: Neal, it`s quite remarkable when you think about an investigation in the presentation of this investigation happening in real time when you think about how long the committee has had to try and gather as much evidence as possible, what does this unexpected addition have a hearing signal to you about the investigation at this point of the process?


NEAL KATYAL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: That it`s maturing, that they`ve developed serious information, and that there`s a kind of kinetic quality between what Congress is doing what Katie eloquently talked about a moment ago, but also what the U.S. Justice Department is doing. So the U.S. Justice firemen, Dawn Raid on Jeffrey Clark`s home, that`s the Assistant Attorney General who tried to maneuver to become the acting Attorney General, tell Trump what he wanted to hear about election fraud, bring bogus lawsuits and the like.

But also today, John Eastman, Trump`s lawyer, his phone was seized and turned out it was seized last week. All of this is to me, Ayman and Disha (ph) that there is a real kind of step up in both sides of the investigation Congress and the Justice Department. And they may not be working directly together, they`re obviously sharing some information. There have been some disputes about how much information should be shared.

But these two different axes pursuing an investigation against, if not Donald Trump personally, that hasn`t been confirmed yet, but certainly Donald Trump`s, you know, co-conspirators of this Jeffrey Clark, John Eastman and the like. So the committee is starting to circle. The Justice Department is starting to circle.

MOHYELDIN: Katie, what more do we know about the Eastman phone seizure? If anything, as well as this raid on Jeffrey Clark`s home, how could this all factor into the Justice Department`s criminal investigation of January 6?

BENNER: Well, as my colleagues reported, this actually seems more directly related to the inspector general`s investigation of what happened at the Justice Department in the final days of the Trump administration. So we reported, I think the New York Times first reported the very first story about Jeffrey Clark and the fight over who would run the Justice Department in order to overturn with the plan to overturn the election of Clark took over.

I believe that story ran on January 23rd right after inauguration of 2021. And the Justice Department Inspector General came out with a statement just a day or two later saying that the IG is initiating an investigation into whether any former or current DOJ official engaged in an improper attempt to have the department seek to alter the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. That`s Michael Horowitz, the DOJ Inspector General.

Now that announcement came at a really interesting time. It was right after inauguration, there was no confirmed Attorney General. There was no confirmed U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia. You actually saw Michael Horowitz come in and take a really firm stand and initiate an investigation that one might think would also be done with the U.S. Attorney`s office at the time. But he went on a limb and he made this announcement really early on.

My colleagues, you know, reported that in Eastman`s own court documents, he says that that the phone seizure happened at the behest of the Inspector General.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, and let me, Neal, follow up on that real quick. John Eastman actually showed up on Fox tonight, arguing about the legality of the Feds seizing his phone. Listen to this.


JOHN EASTMAN, SUBPOENAED BY JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: There`s no indication of any crime that this is connected to. That`s apparently in an attach in an affidavit. But the affidavit wasn`t attached to the warrant. The Fourth Amendment`s very clear here, when they search and seize your property, they have to give a particular description of the things to be seized. I`m an attorney, it`s access to all my privileged communications with nearly 100 different clients. The very reason we have the Fourth Amendment is to prevent that kind of abuse. And yet that`s what they`re doing here.


MOHYELDIN: Is he right there, Neal? I mean, what would federal agents need to get this warrant?

KATYAL: I`m not sure John Eastman, Ayman, has ever been right on anything. He`s not right on this. He`s, you know, I guess a little more right than he is on the election. Cool stuff. But that`s not saying anything. So I mean, Eastman`s big claim in his legal filing is that the DOJ inspector general`s jurisdiction can`t apply because he never worked in the Inspector General`s office.

OK, but if you`re in cahoots with someone who did work there to, I don`t know, replaced the entire majority of the Justice Department`s leadership, I kind of think that that qualifies. So, I think DOJ is going to have something to say about this, the idea that he`s contesting this on Fourth Amendment grounds. I mean, he can try I wish him luck. It`s going nowhere. You know, so I think this is bogus, just as his legal opinions have been bogus, through and through.

MOHYELDIN: Phil, these hearings have already revealed the how much Eastman and others, you know, are the focus of this investigation. Where does it go from here you think?

RUCKER: Well, you know, the committee has a lot more work to do and there are additional hearings, to show.


We`ve, you know, seen in depth the efforts to take over the Justice Department by President -- former President Trump. We`ve certainly heard about Eastman`s pressure campaign to try to convince Trump and Pence to, you know, act on January 6 to try to overturn the election.

But there`s more to learn about the events leading up to the sixth, then, frankly, about the days that followed the six that I think we`ll hear these hearings, and in particular, there`s more to learn about how Trump conducted himself on January 6, what was going on behind the scenes in the Oval Office, what those conversations with the former president were like, in real time.

And some of that could involve Eastman because he was in communications with President Trump at the time. But it also could involve Trump`s conversations with Mark Meadows, then the White House Chief of Staff and with other aides, sort of what he wanted, and to really get at the former president`s motivation, what he was hoping would happen and what he was directing those around him to try to make happen.

MOHYELDIN: Phil, I wanted to just switch gears really quickly and get your thoughts on how the White House is dealing with the pressure to do something on abortion. I know that is something that is consuming a lot of time at the White House. Do you have any insight into what if anything they can do at this moment?

RUCKER: Well, their hands are tied. There`s not anything that the President himself can do to try to protect the woman`s right to choose and to have abortions. He can certainly offer leadership for the Democratic Party. He can try to pressure Congress, the Senate to get rid of the filibuster, for example, to try to codify Roe v Wade, as long as Democrats continue to have the majority in both chambers of Congress, but there`s not some sort of executive action that he can take with one fell swoop.

That being said, he is under extraordinary pressure from a number of Democrats within his party, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, of course, but also senators Elizabeth Warren, Senator Smith from Minnesota, a number of other Democratic senators wanting to see more fight from the President, wanting to see him sort of lead this battle and increase the rhetoric but also increase the vows for what he might try to do and what sort of legislation he might support. Feeling like this is a really existential moment in America`s history, for women for their rights, and that he should be showing more leadership than he has already.

MOHYELDIN: All right, Philip Rucker, Katie Benner and Neal Katyal, thanks to the three of you for starting us off this evening. And coming up, the chaos and confusion. The decision that Roe has created at Family Planning health centers, all across this country.

And later as we deal with a crush of news here at home, we`re keeping an eye on what is happening overseas. Russia has continued its brutal war on civilians in Ukraine this time shelling a crowded shopping mall. We`re going to check in with a former four star general about what more can be done to stop this carnage. The 11th Hour just getting underway on this Monday night.




DANA NESSEL (D) MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think what`s going to happen is even in most medical emergencies, doctors will be so afraid of losing their license to practice they`ll be so afraid of losing their professional liability insurance. And they`ll be so afraid of being charged and saved to jail that they`re not going to take the chance I think women are going to die on the operating room table because they have scared the hell out of these medical providers.


MOHYELDIN: So that legal uncertainty can be found all across the country in the state of Arizona for example, nearly all clinics that provide abortions reportedly stopped those services on Friday including Planned Parenthood of Arizona. All seven of its clinics have now halted abortion procedures.

The Guardian points out this announcement from the largest abortion provider in the state came amid confusion over law banning abortion dating back to 1901 when Arizona was still a territory.

We welcome now the medical director of Planned Parenthood Arizona, Dr. Jill Gibson, Dr. Gibson, thank you so much for making time for us this evening. So, let me start with what you are telling your staff and your patients and what are you hearing from them? What are they telling you?

DR. JILL GIBSON, PLANNED PARENTHOOD ARIZONA MEDICAL DIRECTOR: Just have to say this is the most devastating time to be a provider of abortion care in this country and particularly in Arizona, because of the extremely confusing legal landscape here in Arizona. We really have no clarity about what is legal and what is not legal.

Currently, we have laws that are banning abortion that were written in 1901 back before the state was even part of the Union. And we just we really haven`t gotten any clarity from anyone about whether these laws which were enjoined in 1973 under the protection of Roe will be reinstated now that Roe has fallen.

We also have a personhood provision which was enacted last year by our state legislature, which basically confers all of the rights of living breathing human beings onto fetuses. So that certainly has the potential to criminalize the provision of abortion here in our state. So we`re really at a point where we legally cannot safely provide abortion to our patients.

MOHYELDIN: I know that you said that the hardest hit Arizonans already faced discriminatory obstacles to health care particularly black and in indigenous communities, excuse me, including people with disabilities and people who live far from the city. Are there any services or what services are available to them beyond abortion care at this moment?


GIBSON: So Planned Parenthood stores are still absolutely open. We provide all kinds of essential reproductive health care. We provide essential services such as screening for STIs. We provide annual exams, essential screenings for breast cancer, cervical cancer, we provide contraceptive counseling, but unfortunately at this time, we`re not able to provide one of the most essential aspects of health care, which is the provision of abortion care.

MOHYELDIN: My colleague, Cynthia McFadden went to Texas to check out so called crisis pregnancy centers that say they provide free services and abortion information for pregnant women. I want to play for you and our viewers a clip of this, watch.


CYNTHIA MCFADDEN, NCB NEWS SENIOR LEGAL AND INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: And we sent in to NBC News producers to ask for pregnancy counseling. At a center in the Dallas area volunteer told our producer they don`t offer abortions, adding abortions can cause infertility. When asked about the abortion pill, the volunteer said My job is not to scare you. You never get over seeing that baby. She then pointed to a small plastic model like this saying, Can you imagine one of these in your panties?


SARAH DAVIS (R) FMR. TEXAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Yes, so as a taxpayer, this is infuriating, a horrible thing for a woman to be told and medically totally inaccurate.

HOWARD: Yes. As a nurse as a mom, you totally shocked me with that. It`s a lie.


MOHYELDIN: Dr. Gibson, your reaction to that.

GIBSON: This is unfortunately a very real reality. We have pregnancy crisis centers that are literally set up right adjacent to our Planned Parenthood clinics. They`ve even copied the signage and the coloring of the windows to make it appear as if they are a Planned Parenthood brand. And we know that patients leave there with information that is not medically accurate in any way, shape, or form.

And Arizona has a real significant track record of forcing patients to go through barriers to achieve legal abortion. They already have to go through unnecessary ultrasounds. They have to listen to a physician provide them with a five-page script of medically inaccurate medical information. There`s just -- the state of Arizona has systemically tried to dissuade women from reaching the essential health care that they need. And this is this is no exception.

MOHYELDIN: The Arizona alliance for community health centers, they released a statement saying in part, the critical shortage of healthcare providers in Arizona may intensify if providers choose to leave the state in opposition of the laws limitation on access to care. How much does this worry you? I mean, especially after the strain on frontline workers from the last three years of the COVID pandemic.

GIBSON: I think that this is a really important discussion that has not been brought to the light. We know that young physicians, as they`re embarking on their career in taking care of women are going to want to train in places where they are able to learn the skills that they need to comprehensively take care of women.

And so I really think that programs, training programs for obstetrician gynecologist, family medicine doctors, emergency room doctors that don`t offer training and abortion services are not going to be able to recruit young doctors to come and train there. Because it`s just -- it`s antithetical to our ethics as physicians to not be able to have all the tools that we need to best take care of our patients.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, it is a difficult time for everybody involved in this. Dr. Jill Gibson, thank you so much for joining us and your insights this evening.

GIBSON: Thank you.

MOHYELDIN: Coming up, with just 134 days until the November midterms, the right to choose is now a leading campaign issue the politics of personal choice when THE 11TH HOUR continues.



MOHYELDIN: A majority of Americans say they don`t support the Supreme Court`s decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade and as the Washington Post points out, the debate is creating new splits in the Republican Party. In fact, the Post reports former Vice President Mike Pence is actually leaning in on the issue calling for a nationwide abortion ban while other potential 2024 candidates are actually being a little bit more cautious about it.

With us now for more Errin Haines, formerly the Associated Press and now editor at large for the 19th a nonprofit nonpartisan newsroom focused on gender politics and policy. And A.B. Stoddard, veteran Washington journalist and associate editor and columnist for Real Clear Politics. It`s great to have both of you with us.

A.B., I`d like to start with you. We know where Mike Pence -- what Mike Pence, excuse me, stands on this but, is this issue going to create problems for other Republicans?

A.B. STODDARD, REAL CLEAR POTITICS ASSOC. EDITOR AND COLUMNIST: There`s no question that`s why you can see that their responses it ranges from oh this decision did not outlaw abortion. Everything is going to stay the same in most places, it`s just going to take it to the states now to this as a pro- democracy decision to, oh don`t worry, there`s not going to be a federal ban, which was the not at all surprising reaction of the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell who hopes to become majority leader.


And who really wouldn`t touch this idea of a federal ban. Obviously, Mike Pence is looking to ingratiate himself with evangelicals in South Carolina to create a purge to run for the Republican nomination but for Republicans running in 2022 in the midterms, no, they do not want a huge backlash from women in the suburbs, or rural areas of the cities or anywhere. This is not this polling is not a comfort, then they were headed to a really clean sweep. And now with months to go that, you know, this poll -- this polling about energy and enthusiasm and intend to vote is not welcome news for them.

MOHYELDIN: Hey, Errin, I want to play for you a clip from representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Meet the Press yesterday, watch.


REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): What I believe that the President and the Democratic Party needs to come to terms with is that this is not just a crisis of Roe. This is a crisis of our democracy. I do believe that there has been a weak democratic strategy in the past, and we cannot continue to use those same playbooks right now, as I say is that this is overtime for our democracy, and we must be aggressive.


MOHYELDIN: Why haven`t Democrats, Errin, change that playbook? And do you think that it will actually hurt them come midterms?

ERRIN HAINES, THE 19TH EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Well, yes, I do think that Democrats certainly did not have the same sense of urgency around the Supreme Court that Republicans have had. Republicans have been playing the long game on the Supreme Court, particularly on the issue of Roe for decades. And now that moment that they have worked to bring about his family comments, we find ourselves in a post row reality.

Democrats, I think have come to this issue more recently. You certainly saw more awareness around the states, particularly it pertains to the Supreme Court with the confirmations of justices Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett.

But the going into the 2016 election, you had President Trump basically pledging to put the conservatives on a Supreme Court that that could overturn Roe and he delivered on that promise for his voters. Certainly, you have now President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris telling Democrats to vote and sending out fundraising emails in the wake of this Dobbs decision that is something that is has caused consternation among a lot of voters who were saying we did vote for Democrats to act in -- after the 2020 election, and they are looking for action.

You have providers that clearly were planning for this outcome. You had the GOP, who is responding with these trigger laws that are going to be rolling out over the next several weeks. They certainly were planning for this day.

And so voters are wondering what Democrats plan to do, not just what they`re going to say, but what they are going to do to shore things up not waiting until November because there are people who are going to be impacted. I mean, we`re immediately impacted by this decision and will continue to be impacted by this decision in the months and years ahead.

MOHYELDIN: A.B., you know, the Democrats are clearly hoping that the Roe reversal will be a big motivating factor for voters in the midterms. You can feel that, I mean, the anger is palpable among Democrats and their voters. Do you think that`s likely to be the case? Come November? Or could a lot change between now and then?

STODDARD: Well, I don`t think this problem in this crisis is going to be solved, that`s for sure. So because this is going to play out and communities on so many levels, people are going to be caught up in this legal web, trying to find out what enforcement and prosecution means of these trigger laws. I think the conversation on the ground will continue, because this is going to affect families in so many different ways.

So I do think that, that this is just one of these powerful issues, even in our nation have short attention spans and hyper news cycles, that is likely to still be part a dominant part of the conversation going into the fall.

MOHYELDIN: Errin, are we likely to see divisions among Democrats grow on the response to the Roe reversal as time goes on that there is a division among Democrats on what to do and what should be done by the President and Congress?

HAINES: Well, just to A.B.`s point, I think that the sense of urgency in this country for the 52 percent of women who are childbearing age who are going to be impacted by this, and people who are also concerned about this issue and whatever may come next I`m also thinking about people in the LGBTQ community.


this is going to become increasingly urgent as we see, again, these trigger laws rolling out across the country, as A.B. said, you see legal challenges continuing to mount as we see state legislatures acting in the wake of -- continuing to act in the wake of this Dobbs decision.

And so, you know, and not to mention what may happen in terms of contraception in terms of in vitro fertilization, all the other things that people are concerned about in terms of the intended or unintended consequences of this Dobbs decision.

So, I think that you certainly do have Democrats with very different ideas about what should happen going forward and the lengths to which this administration can go, the lengths to which Congress has the ability to go given the makeup and what may happen on the other side of November.

And so, yes, I do think that this this definitely sets up an intraparty fight, or at least intraparty tension that we`re already kind of seeing emerging around this issue.

MOHYELDIN: All right, Errin Haines, A.B. Stoddard, thank you to the both of you for joining us.

Coming up. Ukraine says that civilians are dead after a Russian missile strike on a shopping mall. What President Zelenskyy saying about that attack, sas Russia gains ground in eastern Ukraine when THE 11TH HOUR continues.



MOHYELDIN: Despite heavy fighting, Ukraine is struggling to maintain control of the Eastern Donbas region. Ukraine says that a Russian missile strike hit a crowded shopping mall near the center of the country in their President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that there were more than 1,000 civilians inside at the time of that attack and local officials are reporting at least 16 dead and 59 injured.

And later in the day, Zelenskyy argued in a video statement that the Russian State has become the largest terrorist organization in the world. This just hours after he spoke to G-7 leaders in Germany that vowed to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

With us now for more retired four star U.S. Army General Barry McCaffrey, a decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War and a former battlefield commander in the Persian Gulf.

General McCaffrey, it`s great to see you again. Thank you for joining us. So Russia appears to be gaining ground in eastern Ukraine. Why would it from a military standpoint even want to hit this shopping mall?

GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I think it`s appropriate that Zelenskyy term the Russians a terrorist organization. They have made as a principal military objective the striking with long distance cruise missiles and artillery, civilian concentration centers and their infrastructure. They`ve killed or injured tens of thousands of civilians.

This strike on the mall was timed to take place while President Biden and the G-7 are meeting in Bavaria. It`s simply outrageous. I think Zelenskyy understands he`s in trouble. The Russians have a preponderance of air power. They`re now firing cruise missiles, not just from the Black Sea, in the sea of Azov, but also from airspace over Belarus. So astonishing situation they struck Kyiv and other points throughout the country.

So we`re in trouble. We need to accelerate the delivery of counter battery fire. We now fortunately have announced we`re going to sell them in Norwegian designed NASA MS anti-missile defense system about 100 mile range. But Ukraine`s in great danger between now and the beginning of the new year.

MOHYELDIN: Yes. And you may be more familiar with the terminology. But the United States has announced its intention to send this new surface to air missile system to Ukraine. Is that what you are talking about? Or is there something different? Because I want to know how significant that alone would be?

MCCAFFREY: Well, I think it would be significant. But, you know, one of the challenges to the surface to air missile system is not just a missile firing platform, it`s also the digital connectivity, the intelligence that are the command and control. And it all has to be working together, meaning training and maintenance the proper technician, so the absorption of these systems is very complex.

But I think it`s good news, the Biden administration Secretary often stepped up to it, they`re going to put more MLRS, a counter battery to attack Russian artillery system into play, with a 40 mile range. And they`re also going to announce a delivery of more munitions for Ukrainian artillery, which by the way, primarily armed with old Soviet era equipment.

The best thing you came out of today, those the G-7 publicly said collectively, we`re going to stay with Ukraine through the end. That`s a major political statement. And I`m sure Zelenskyy was encouraged by it.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, so what does, sir, what does Ukraine need to drive Russia out of eastern Ukraine? Is there even a military play at this point to tactically drive the Russians out of eastern Ukraine?

MCCAFFREY: Not with the current balance of power, but I think we got to take into account. Ukrainian leadership As far superior both tactical and strategic that of the Russians.


The Russians have suffered massive losses, allegedly somewhere up to potentially 30,000 killed. Russians are scrambling for manpower now. They`re offering three months highly paid contracts to people over 40, who will sign up again and go fight in Ukraine.

The Russia is having tremendous problems also. But what the West has to do, and by the way, there`s a NATO meeting in Madrid on Wednesday, NATO has got to step up to this. And we`ve got to stand with Ukraine in advanced technology.

Another factor I think is very helpful to Ukraine is NATO Secretary General today announced we`re going to increase the number of NATO military forces, which are in NATO Readiness Force, NRF, from 40,000 troops to 300,000, over a sevenfold increase, that puts active combat power under the command of SACEUR and ready to deter Russian mischief elsewhere in the Alliance. That means specifically Finland and Sweden potentially, as they come online as NATO partners.

MOHYELDIN: General, we have about 30 seconds left, but what would the significance be of the U.S. designating Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism?

MCCAFFREY: Well, you sort of saying to yourself, if we can`t designate and don`t understand Russia as a state sponsored terrorism then who is? I mean, it`s simply astonishing. These are decisions by the state, it`s not just indiscipline, murderous, brutal Russian entry battalions. This is Putin at the top using war against civilians on their infrastructure, terrorist attacks from the air against vulnerable civilian populations, stealing wheat stealing food, not just from Ukraine, but from Africa and the Middle East. They clearly are a terrorist organization. And I certainly hope we follow through with the legal implications of doing just that.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, the calls for that designation are growing louder by the day. General Barry McCaffrey, always a pleasure, sir. Thank you so much for your time.

Coming up, back here at home, Rudy Giuliani says that he could have been killed after a grocery store employee slapped him on the back but what really happened we`ve got the tape when THE 11TH HOUR continuous.




RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP PERSONAL ATTORNEY: I`m telling you it was a very, very heavy shot. Now I`m 78 years old. I`m pretty good shape for 78- year-old. Literally, 78-year-old is in good shape, isn`t it? He could easily hit me knock me to ground and kill me but my head.


MOHYELDIN: All right, so one last thing before we go tonight, Rudy slaps back. Rudy Giuliani says that he could have been killed after he was allegedly slapped on the back in Staten Island on Sunday. He was at a grocery store campaigning for his son who is running for governor when he says that he was hit in the back by an employee who was angry about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. Here`s what Giuliani said about the incident.


GIULIANI: I got hit on the back as if a boulder hit me. It knocked me forward a step or two. It didn`t knock me down. But it hurt tremendously. I did not know what it was. I had no idea what it was. And all of a sudden I heard someone yell at me something I can`t repeat. About what I am. Curse words, dirty curse words and then some more dirty curse words and then a few more days to as he retreated ran away. And then he turned around and he said that I was a woman joke.


MOHYELDIN: And luckily for us security camera footage has now been released showing the mayor`s harrowing ordeal. Our friends at The Recount put together a video so that we can see exactly what Giuliani was describing.


GIULIANI: About a third of the way through, I got hit on the back as if a boulder hit me. It knocked me forward step or two. It didn`t knock me down. But it hurt tremendously.


MOHYELDIN: Now we should point out that NBC News has not verified the video. The grocery store worker was arrested yesterday but released today after his charges were downgraded. Now this has to be upsetting for Mr. Giuliani. Is he now worried for his safety?


GIULIANI: Now I just get informed by the police. They`re going to downgrade the charges. No, I don`t care for me. I can take care of myself. This little punk is going to hurt me. The mafia threatened to kill me twice. The FARC wants to cut my throat four fat was. I`m not allowed to go to Sicily because I`m told they never forget. You think I worry about this little punk. I worry about this little punk for you. Because if he can come and hit me 70-year-old man, next thing he does get to you.



MOHYELDIN: Next thing he does he`s going to hate you. Rudy`s fear here is emblematic of the way those on the right seem to view everything these days. They want to scare you and make you believe you`re constantly under threat and under attack. And as we see here, they will exaggerate whatever it is just to make that point.

And on that note, I wish you a good night from all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News. Thanks for staying up late.