Summary
The January 6 Committee holds a hearing focused on Donald Trump pressuring Mike Pence to overturn the election results. The January 6 Committee looks to hear testimony from Ginni Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Senator Raphael Warnock discusses his new book, "A Way Out of No Way: A Memoir of Truth, Transformation, and the New American Story."
Transcript
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: I said to him: "Are you out of your F`ing mind? Now I`m going to give you the best free legal advice you`re ever getting in your life. Get a great F`ing criminal defense lawyer. You`re going to need it."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: We now know why that White House lawyer told John Eastman to get a great F`ing lawyer and why Eastman then tried to jump on the last lifeboat, asking for a pardon.
It was all explained in great detail at today`s blockbuster January 6 hearing.
But we began with a different January 6, January 6, 2001, which played out this way after this the disputed results in Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Is the objection in writing and signed by a member of the House and a senator?
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): The objection is in writing and I don`t care that it is not -- it is not signed by a member of the Senate.
(APPLAUSE)
GORE: The chair will advise that the rules do care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Now, we all remember what happened next. George W. Bush`s election was certified by Al Gore, the vice president at the time, and Bush was inaugurated.
His opponent, Vice President Al Gore, did not try to stop that from happening. No one suggested that Gore had any constitutional authority to do so, since, in fact, that was never a thing, despite a history of multiple disputed American presidential elections, including the one which also hinged on disputed Florida results back in 1876, which led to the creation of the Electoral Count Act.
During today`s hearing, however, Gregory Jacob, who was lead counsel to Vice President Pence, was asked if he confronted Trump lawyer John Eastman with that fact and many other objections to Eastman`s outre interpretation of the Electoral College Act -- Electoral Count Act.
And this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG JACOB, FORMER COUNSEL TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: "You weren`t jumping up and saying Al Gore had this authority to do that. You would not want Kamala Harris to be able to exercise that kind of authority in 2024, when I hope Republicans will win the election and I know you hope that too, John."
And he said: "Absolutely. Al Gore did not have a basis to do it in 2000. Kamala Harris shouldn`t be able to do it in 2024. But I think you should do it today."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: In fact, Eastman was pushing this theory, even as he himself acknowledged that it was unconstitutional, and wouldn`t hold up in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): Did Dr. Eastman admit in front of the president that his proposal would violate the Electoral Count Act?
JACOB: Mr. Eastman acknowledged that that was the case, that even what he viewed as the more politically palatable option would violate several provisions. But he thought that we could do so because, in his view, the Electoral Count Act was unconstitutional.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Jacob also testified that Eastman acknowledged if, if his theory that Pence could delay certification of President Biden`s victory made it to the Supreme Court, Trump would lose unanimously, 9-0.
The star of today`s hearing, however, former federal Judge and perennial Republican Supreme Court short-lister Michael Luttig, who advised Pence about his options, also made clear, along with Mr. Jacob, that Pence had no authority under any interpretation of the Constitution to do what Eastman proposed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. MICHAEL LUTTIG, FORMER FOURTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS JUDGE: There was no basis in the Constitution or laws of the United States at all for the theory espoused by Mr. Eastman, at all, none.
JACOB: A review of text history and, frankly, just common sense all confirm the vice president`s first instinct on that point. There is no justifiable basis to conclude that the vice president has that kind of authority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: In fact, Judge Luttig spelled out how adamantly he opposed the suggestion that Pence could overturn the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTTIG: That declaration of Donald Trump as the next president would have plunged America into what I believe would have been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:05:02]
REID: For his part, John Eastman remained undeterred and later even spoke at the Ellipse on January 6, only further inflaming the crowd with claims about a plot he, as we now know, admitted was illegal in private.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN EASTMAN, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN ATTORNEY: And all we are demanding of Vice President Pence is, this afternoon at 1:00, he let the legislatures of the state look into this, so we get to the bottom of it and the American people know whether we have control of the direction of our government or not!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Taken together, today`s hearing filled in the blanks of why White House lawyer Eric Herschmann advised Eastman to get a great F`ing lawyer, several of them, as committee member Pete Aguilar revealed yet another bombshell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Just a few days later, Dr. Eastman e-mailed Rudy Giuliani and requested that he be included on a list of potential recipients of a presidential pardon.
Dr. Eastman`s e-mail stated -- quote -- "I have decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: After Trump declined to give Eastman that presidential pardon, Eastman pleaded the Fifth repeatedly when deposed by the committee, 100 times, to be exact.
Joining me now, Olivia Troye, director of the Republican Accountability Project and a former aide, top aide, to Vice President Mike Pence, Daniel Goldman, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and general counsel for the House Intelligence Committee during the first Trump impeachment. He`s now running for Congress in New York. And Maya Wiley, president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights.
Thank you all for being here.
I want to zero in on Mr. Eastman, because it seems to me -- I`m going to go right down the center of my panel here to Mr. Goldman. It seems to me that not only was what he was proposing unconstitutional. He knew it was unconstitutional. Not only did it violate the law, I mean, the Electoral Count Act. He knew it violated that law.
And he knew that, in terms of precedent, it violated that too, because he said Al Gore should not have had the right to do this. He thinks Kamala Harris should not have the right to do it, but -- quote -- "We should go ahead and do this anyway."
Your thoughts?
DANIEL GOLDMAN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC IMPEACHMENT COUNSEL: Well, you hit the nail on the head.
I mean, the difference between just sort of violating the Electoral Count Act and knowingly conspiring with others to interfere with the lawful functioning of government is exactly what you and Greg Jacob said today, which is that he knew that what he was advocating for was illegal, yet he was doing it anyway.
And you don`t have to take my word for it. You can take the word of district Judge Carter out in L.A., who made a finding, by a preponderance of the evidence, that Eastman may have committed that exact crime, conspiring to defraud the -- to overturn the election.
And who was his co-conspirator, according to Judge Carter? Donald Trump. So, if John Eastman is taking the Fifth, is asking for a pardon, because he clearly at that point recognized that he was in criminal hot water, the only other people who were really integrally involved in pushing Eastman`s theory were Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, and Donald Trump.
It does seem at this point like what we have seen over the last couple of weeks is, most of the rest of White House officials were behind the scenes pushing against this whole scheme, but that Eastman kept pushing forward, I mean, even to the point where he fully acknowledged that what he was doing was illegal, but he just wanted Vice President Pence to do it anyway.
REID: And, you know, let me just read for a second, Maya, from the 12th Amendment to the Constitution, because I thought that, aside from everything else that we`re learning, it`s a fantastic civics lesson that Americans are getting by watching these hearings, because people don`t necessarily know the minutiae of what`s in the Constitution.
But one thing is pretty clear. If you do remember January 6, 2001, that the position of the vice president in that moment is ceremonial. It`s purely ceremonial. It`s like the Oscars. The person reading the Oscars envelope doesn`t determine who wins the Oscar. They`re literally just reading it.
And so is the vice president. And Mr. Pence went and asked people who would know. He asked people like Michael Luttig. He went and asked the former Vice President Dan Quayle. He went and asked them just to be sure. And his counsel asked. And they were told, no, you need to stick with this.
"The president of the Senate shall in the presence of the Senate and the House of Representatives open all the certificates and the votes, then shall be counted," period. That`s the job.
And yet his persistence, Maya, is what`s mind-boggling here. Right up until the day of the insurrection, he himself gets on at the at the podium and starts still spouting this demand to Mike Pence.
[19:10:00]
What do you make of all this?
MAYA WILEY, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Look, I make of all this what was already largely in the public eye, but that these hearings are making crystal clear with additional new and powerful evidence, which is, everybody, including those close to Donald Trump, appointed by Donald Trump, that Donald Trump chose to take before Senate confirmation, that he relied upon to defend him in impeachment, and brought into the White House Counsel`s Office, these are his close supporters all saying the same thing behind closed doors.
Which is, no, this is insanity. This is crazy. Judge Luttig, I mean, the thing about this is, this is a person with whom I know I personally would share very few things that we would agree upon. I can say that saving an American democracy requires us all to recognize what the boundaries are.
That 12th Amendment is a clear, crystal-clear boundary. And what we have seen, what it -- what I make of it is those who seek power, like a John Eastman, like a Rudy Giuliani, and like a Donald Trump, are really saying, we will ignore the Constitution of the United States if it serves us.
And the reason this committee hearing I hope is getting the time and attention it deserves is because the true message here is, no matter your political beliefs or your party, this is an existential crisis if we believe lies because they are told repeatedly, including lies about what our Constitution tells us.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: I mean, Olivia, I`m going to go to you, because you worked for Mike Pence. I mean, can you imagine what would have happened in 2001 had Vice President Gore simply said, no, I disagree with what the Supreme Court has said about the outcome in Florida, and I will simply declare myself to be the president?
I mean, that is literally what was being asked of Mike Pence, declare himself vice president again. But I want to have our audience listen for a moment again to the vice president`s team, some of the members of his team reacting to Donald Trump then releasing a statement on January 5 lying about Mike Pence`s beliefs and trying to say Mike Pence agreed with all of this.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACOB: We were shocked and disappointed, because whoever had written and put that statement out, it was categorically untrue.
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I was irritated and expressed displeasure that a statement could have gone out that misrepresented the vice president`s viewpoint without consultation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Olivia, talk about the pressure that was on Mike Pence, who, again, was a partisan supporter of Donald Trump, and the pressure that he and his staff and his team were under.
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: Yes, look, to your point, he was an unwavering, loyal follower, right. He served in the administration for four years, and you basically saw no daylight between him and Trump the entire time, even, as a frustrated staffer, sometimes I really wanted it to be there.
But he was unwavering on it. And so I was -- I have to say, when I saw that statement go out initially, I was thinking to myself, like, this is definitely a false statement. It`s not the first false statement that Donald Trump has put out, right?
This is his usual modus operandi is what I will say about Donald Trump and who he is. And so that just shows the intimidation, because that was the intent of that statement. That statement was meant to publicly intimidate the Pence team and Mike Pence himself.
And it was also, let`s be honest, meant to radicalize Trump supporters and followers to continue to fuel and fan the claims that were going to lead up to what we saw develop on January 6.
REID: And we know that, from the "Washington Post" reporting a few days before that on January 3, Trump is literally telling the people in his office, don`t tell Mike Pence, anything.
He`s isolating the vice president, Olivia, and saying, we`re going to pressure him and isolate him, and then make him the hate object of that growing and increasingly angry crowd on the 6th.
TROYE: Yes, so it`s a secret coup going on, right, that they`re planning to overturn a free and fair election, and then there`s this kind of secret type of plot against his own vice president.
And, look, you may disagree with Mike Pence, his politics and his ideology, political ideology, but we should never, no matter what party you belong to, be OK with a scenario where the vice -- where the president of the United States is plotting to figure out how to navigate into getting his own vice president to commit treason with him.
Mike Pence has a lot of things, but he`s certainly not a traitor to our country.
[19:15:03]
REID: And, Dan, the Justice Department has said they`re quite interested. They would like to see the transcripts of all of these interviews.
Shouldn`t they already be interviewing these same people? What do you make of the fact that they`re saying they would like these transcripts?
GOLDBERG: Well, I don`t think there`s any question that the Department of Justice is woefully behind the Select Committee.
They clearly made a decision at the outset that they were not going to be able to stay ahead of Congress, as the Department of Justice prefers to do. And so they just let them go and do their thing.
I do think, though, that, yes, of course, they will be able to get their own interviews, and they will have to interview everyone themselves. But it really cuts to the chase if you`re able to go through current testimony or recent testimony on the same topic of 1,000 people.
And my suspicion and what I hope will happen is that some of the staff members on the January 6 Committee, after these hearings are over, will guide the members of the Department of Justice through the transcripts and indicate to them which transcripts may be very valuable and which ones are not so valuable, because, remember, so many of the staff members on the January 6 Committee are former federal prosecutors.
So they certainly know how to build a criminal case. And it would short- circuit a lot of work for the Department of Justice if they could get some guidance from the committee staff.
REID: Oh, absolutely.
Oh, if I were John Eastman right now, I`d be sweating, because, today, I felt they built a pretty rock-solid case that he knew that he was fomenting crimes and then tried to get on that pardon boat.
OK, my guests are all going to stick with me.
And up next:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m hearing reports that Pence caved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m telling you, if Pence caved, we`re going to drag mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) through the streets. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) politicians are going to get (EXPLETIVE DELETED) drug through the streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: The threat to the life of Vice President Pence caused by his boss, Donald Trump.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:40]
REID: Today`s hearing provided the most detailed account that we have seen so far of what former Vice President Pence endured on January 6.
Let me just paint you a picture of his day. That morning, Donald Trump, in a last-ditch effort to overturn the election results and remain president, called the vice president to tell him to have -- quote -- "extreme courage."
On that call, former Pence legal counsel Greg Jacob testified that he overheard Trump calling Pence a wimp. And Ivanka Trump`s chief of staff said Trump called Pence the P-word.
After that call, Pence left for the Capitol, and Trump went to deliver a speech to the Ellipse, a speech that had zero mentions of Pence in the draft remarks. But, according to the committee, here`s what Trump wound up saying that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope Mike is going to do the right thing.
I hope so. I hope so, because, if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.
Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. And if he doesn`t, that will be a sad day for our country, because you`re sworn to uphold our Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Those remarks cranked up the MAGA crowd`s anger against Pence, and that anger grew after Trump tweeted that Pence didn`t have the courage to do what needed to be done.
Trump did this even after being informed that there was a violent mob attacking the Capitol. The committee noted that the angry crowd surged directly after that tweet. Pence was escorted to a secure location.
Congressman Aguilar pointing out that, at one point, the insurrectionists were only 40 feet away from the vice president. In fact, an informant told the FBI that the Proud Boys would have killed Pence if they had caught him.
In newly released photos, we see that Vice President Pence was moved to a loading dock, where the Secret Service directed him to get into a car, but he refused, saying he didn`t want the insurrectionist to have the satisfaction of knowing they forced him to leave the Capitol.
During that time, Pence directed the response -- the response to the siege and checked on the safety of congressional leaders and members of the administration. And Jacob said that he was frustrated that Trump didn`t call to check on him.
After four-and-a-half-hours, Pence went back to the Senate chamber, and late that night certified the election for Joe Biden, just as the Constitution prescribes.
Back with me, Olivia Troye, Daniel Goldman and Maya Wiley.
And, Maya, Greg Jacob, who I thought was actually the most effective presenter today, said that, after all of this happened, he e-mailed Eastman just a button up our Eastman conversation, and said: "Thanks to your bullshit, we`re now under siege."
And Eastman, even after the insurrection, e-mails him back, days -- and says to him: "I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation and adjourn for 10 days." Even as it`s all hitting the fan, he`s still begging him to violate the law.
WILEY: He`s begging him in words and writing in print. I mean, and he`s a lawyer.
This just goes to tell you how brazen and how transparent John Eastman`s efforts -- but, remember, it`s his efforts that Donald Trump searched for, right? I mean, Donald Trump -- what we have heard in prior days of testimony is, Donald Trump didn`t like what he was hearing from his campaign. He did not like what he was hearing from the Department of Justice.
He did not like what he was hearing from Mike Pence`s lawyers or from White House counsel. And so he went and searched for and found the person that would tell him what he wanted to hear, what he was searching for, and the thing that enabled him to gin up the crowd.
[19:25:05]
One point we should just add to the danger to Mike Pence that day, it was because the foot soldiers in this revolution were actually white supremacists and extremists that Roger Stone had been cultivating a relationship with since 2018, who was actively engaged in the war room, along with Steve Bannon, who at Breitbart did work to normalize and whitewash extremism and white supremacy.
And that all of this culminates in the Proud Boys -- and this was in testimony I`m afraid may have been missed a little bit, but the committee pulled this out, that, before, before the speech that day, the Proud Boys were already scoping out the Capitol and entry points.
And then we hear that they may have been within 40 feet of Michael Pence.
REID: Yes.
WILEY: But what does that tell us about what`s at stake in our Constitution? It`s also about how we`re driving racism and hate and violence.
And I also, in addition to Greg, would add the judge, Luttig, in stating this isn`t about looking backwards at what happened, this is about looking forward to what will come if we do not interrupt it now.
REID: Indeed.
Olivia, I mean, look, Mike Pence calls it rubber room stuff, but it was also extremely dangerous stuff. I mean, to Maya`s point, it`s not as if the people around Trump didn`t know the Proud Boys were, because he -- they were the people who told to stand back and stand by. Roger Stone had lots of experience with them. These are extremist groups, the 3 Percenters, the Oath Keepers. They knew who these people were.
And per the previous testimony that we have seen during these hearings, they were doing recon. Some people who made really violent threats were doing recon with members of Congress, who were taking them to places that people don`t normally go on tours. So they had intel on where to find people. They knew who to find.
And then they were siphoned off from the rally and sent to the Capitol, with the mob then coming in behind them. I want to show a picture of -- this is Mike Pence looking at Trump. This is when Trump finally sends out a video telling everyone to go home. That`s one picture that we can see of Mike Pence. And this is him sort of looking sort of wistfully at that.
And then you have got a picture of Pence moments after being evacuated. You can see him with his wife, Karen, his daughter and his brother, who, by the way, later voted to decertify the Pennsylvania election and voted against having an inquiry into his brother`s potential hanging, Mike Pence seemed to be the odd man out.
Did he understand that Donald Trump was cultivating extremists around him? Did he have any sense of what Donald Trump was bringing his way, in your view?
TROYE: Yes, like, my personal opinion is that I think no one who has worked anywhere near Donald Trump and that`s their goal, that it would be naive, to go into the situation and not understand the gravity of what you`re dealing with and who Donald Trump is.
We have all lived it. Those are staff, firsthand. We know what he`s capable of. And so I`m sure that Mike Pence that day knew that he was going to incur the wrath, even though he was just doing the -- his constitutional duty.
But, to your point and to Maya`s point, what is really alarming here is the extent of coordination that went on amongst Eastman...
REID: Yes.
TROYE: ... amongst all these entities, and with Trump, and with domestic extremist groups. `
REID: Yes.
TROYE: And that coordination is ongoing, right? That is happening.
Some of these people are running for office. Some of them are being installed in critical positions that could be very, very influential or possibly overturns future elections. And the threat lives on. The threat was to Mike Pence`s life that day and to our country`s leadership. But that threat still looms large in our communities.
These divisions are being created every single day, and they`re getting larger. And it`s all driven, honestly, by what started off as this lie of a stolen election, and that stolen election narrative continues still today.
And Republicans, I will say this -- this is my own party, having been a lifelong Republican -- continue to enable it. And what I`m hoping is that this hearing, these hearings, will maybe make a dent or make a crack in this whole MAGA foundation that`s taken over the Republican Party, and really get Americans to take a step back and say, enough, or we have got to start moving in a different direction, because this is so fundamentally dangerous for all of us.
REID: I mean, yes, I think these are really important point, Dan, because you did have the Republican Party sort of mess around with the Tea Party. And then they sort of became the baseline of the party.
This is quite different. This is the mainlining of extremist groups. The Proud Boys now control the Republican Party in Miami-Dade County. Dozens of people with this ideology extremists, Christian nationalists, et cetera, are now mainstreamed into the party.
[19:30:00]
Play mob games, win mob prizes. The Republican Party is dancing with some extremely dangerous people in a bid to gain electoral power. Does that fact and that fact that the Justice Department must be aware of, how does that factor into these indictments? Because we know there are Proud Boys indicted. We know there are Oath Keepers indicted.
Do they then make that connection to the political party that used them as foot soldiers?
GOLDBERG: Well, I think that the threats and the dissension into sort of this extremist -- these extremist supporters comes from this continued anti-democratic fervor in the Republican Party.
And I thought Judge Luttig at the end, the tail end, as he was asked again to just sort of sum up why he is so concerned about the future, but it was his first sentence in the statement today where he said, our democracy remains on a knife`s edge.
REID: Yes.
GOLDBERG: And that is exactly right.
We are in an existential crisis right now about whether we`re going to be a democracy going forward, or whether we are going to allow for the cult of personality, the authoritarian dictator wannabe down in Mar-a-Lago to literally steal the next election.
And Olivia laid it out very well. That`s what they`re gearing up to do in 2024. The supporters unquestionably are these extremists. And that`s part of the reason why the Department of Justice focused initially on the domestic violent extremists who were involved in the riot and the insurrection, because they are dangerous people who need to be removed from the street, and they`re charged with very serious crimes.
So that is important. That`s an important step. But you see this Great Replacement Theory and all the Buffalo shooter and his antisemitic, racist vitriol that led to the shooting. It is overtaking the Republican Party, and it`s a combination. It`s a toxic combination of extremism and authoritarianism that is driving this party and is why we are at such a breaking point.
REID: Indeed.
And let`s not forget the mob boss said that Mike Pence, his vice president, deserved to be hanged. They`re cultivating extremism right up to the top.
Olivia Troye, Daniel Goldman, Maya Wiley thank you all very much.
Still ahead: another major January 6 development today. The committee wants to hear from Ginni Thomas about her e-mails with coup architect John Eastman, who once clerked for her husband, the Supreme Court justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:37:08]
REID: There was an interesting plot twist before today`s hearing started, and it comes from none other than a woman married to a sitting Supreme Court justice, Virginia "Ginni" Thomas.
Now, we have known for some time that she was actively encouraging the Trump plot to overturn the election. What we didn`t know and have now come to find out thanks to "The Washington Post" is that she seemed to be having a conversation with John Eastman, the man responsible for giving Trump the dubious legal justification to steal the election.
Today, "The New York Times" reported that, in one of the e-mails with a pro-Trump lawyer, Eastman argues that there is a heated fight under way at the Supreme Court over whether to hear arguments about the president`s efforts to overturn his defeat at the polls.
Here`s a good time to point out that Justice Thomas was the lone dissent in the Supreme Court`s order rejecting Trump`s bid to withhold documents from the January 6 panel. Oh, and did I mention that Eastman once clerked for Justice Thomas?
Eastman, who refused to cooperate with the committee, published the e-mail- in question. In it, you can see that Thomas was asking for an update on his coup attempt. In a statement, Eastman said -- quote -- "I can categorically confirm that at no time so that discussing with Mrs. Thomas or Justice Thomas any matters pending or likely to come before the court."
So, to recap, just how invested Ginni Thomas was in trying to overturn the election, not only did she e-mail Eastman. She reached out to Trump`s chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and to Arizona lawmakers. Today, January 6 Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson told reporters that the committee wants to hear from Mrs. Thomas.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Some information refers to Ginni Thomas. And we think it`s time that we would at some point invite her to come talk to the committee.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
REID: Later, he added that the committee has sent a letter to Mrs. Thomas.
Thomas, who speaks only with right-wing media organizations, told The Daily Caller that she can`t wait to clear up misconceptions. "I look forward to talking to them."
Joining me now, Jill Wine-Banks, former assistant Watergate special prosecutor and an MSNBC legal analyst, and Richard Painter, professor of law at the University of Minnesota and former chief White House ethics attorney in the George W. Bush administration.
Jill Wine-Banks, I`m going to start with you.
Just three of the e-mails that were sent to Mark Meadows by Ginni Thomas: "The majority knows Biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist in art history."
To Mark Meadows: "Do not concede. It takes time for the army who is gathering for his back."
And a third: "Can`t see America swallowing the obvious fraud, just going with one more thing and no fricking consequences, the whole coup and now this. We cave to people wanting Biden to be anointed. Many of us can`t continue the GOP charade."
If you had Virginia Thomas in front of you on this committee, what would you want to ask her?
JILL WINE-BANKS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I would want to ask her all the questions about her full role, not just these e-mails to Eastman, not just her e-mails and texts to Mark Meadows.
[19:40:00]
But I want to know more about her planning possibilities. Did she participate in planning this? She certainly attended. She says she left because it was cold. Not very believable to me. But maybe it`s true. I certainly would want to know that.
But I would want to know what she was talking about when the army assembling. What army was she talking about? How much did she know about the attempt to get into the Capitol before the actual breach of the Capitol? Those are things that I`d want to know.
But I also want to know more about how she worked with Eastman, who was her husband`s clerk. And this nonsense about, well, I live in a different world than my husband, we don`t talk about things like this, that`s just nonsense. And he has to recuse himself, which is a separate issue from her criminal culpability.
So there is the criminal element of her role, and then the terrible disservice that he is doing to the credibility of the Supreme Court by not recusing himself in all these cases.
REID: You know, and, I mean, has to recuse is doing a lot of work there, because we know, Richard Painter, that there`s almost no rules. The Supreme Court exist under a sort of rules-free environment.
Clarence Thomas has said that they`re essentially one being, they have been melded into one being, they work so closely together. Yet here he is being able to be the lone dissent on cases directly involving the distribution to the committee of e-mails that could concern his wife.
Is there anything that Chief John Roberts could do? Is there any recourse with Clarence Thomas having the insurrectionist right there in his home?
RICHARD PAINTER, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Well, there are rules. There`s a federal statute requiring a federal judge or justice to recuse from the case in which his or her impartiality might reasonably be questioned.
The problem is, with the United States Supreme Court, there`s nobody to enforce the rules, or nobody who is apparently willing to enforce the rules.
REID: Right.
PAINTER: And that`s why we need a code of ethics for the United States Supreme Court passed by Congress with a mechanism for enforcing those rules.
Congress can enforce them through the impeachment clause. I will remind everyone that, in 1968 or late 1960s, Justice Abe Fortas was forced to leave the court and would have been impeached by the House and maybe convicted by the Senate because he took money from a party to a case before the court, apparently under pressure from his spouse.
Well, perhaps Justice Fortas should have known that the better route would simply be for his spouse to become a consultant for the client.
(LAUGHTER)
PAINTER: Fortas recused from that case, and he was still forced off the court simply because of the money from a party before the court.
In the case before the court, Justice Thomas did not recuse from the Thompson case. He needed to recuse. He must have known that his wife was in the middle of this contesting the election business. He must have known that. We don`t know how much. We don`t know whether he knew that she was talking with Mr. Eastman. We will find out when she testifies in front of the committee.
I believe that Justice Thomas should testify in front of the committee, or at least in front of the Judiciary Committee, because the integrity of our courts is absolutely critical, and the impartiality of our justices in a case such as this.
REID: And, I mean, that would be a good question, whether -- Jill Wine- Banks, whether they could call -- whether the Judiciary Committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee or House Judiciary Committee, could separately call Justice Thomas. We know there`s separation of powers issues here.
But is that a possibility? Because it seems to me he lives in his accountability-free zone.
WINE-BANKS: Unfortunately, he does live in that accountability-free world.
The possibility -- of course, there`s a possibility. Whether there is political will to do it and how long it would take while the court continues to suffer, and whether Justice Roberts could in some way approach Justice Thomas and say, you`re killing the court. You have to do something here. At
this point, I don`t think that recusal is enough. I think the damage that he has done and the politicization that is apparent from the relationship. And, as I said, it`s ridiculous to think that Justice Thomas doesn`t know what Mrs. Thomas is doing or that Mrs. Thomas has no idea what the cases are before the Supreme Court.
REID: That`s right.
WINE-BANKS: We all know what the cases are. And she knows that her case was being decided by him, and he was a lone dissenter.
And the result of losing that case, of it being he being the lone dissenter is that we now have these extra documents that show her involvement with Eastman.
REID: Yes.
WINE-BANKS: So I think it`s so obvious that it was wrong of him not to recuse. Ridiculous.
REID: Some -- I mean, there are so many things that are killing the credibility of the Supreme Court. Clarence Thomas is just one of them, but he`s one of the biggest things.
Jill Wine-Banks, Richard Painter, thank you both very much.
We will be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:49:29]
REID: On January 5, 2021, Raphael Warnock became the first black Georgian elected to the United States Senate, alongside Jon Ossoff, who became the state`s first Jewish senator, reflecting a political transformation fueled by the might of black voters and other voters of color.
The very next day, a MAGA insurrectionist mob stormed the halls of Congress, driven by lies about election fraud. In a new essay, Senator Warnock reflected on these two crucial days in American history.
Warnock wrote of his late father -- quote -- "On January 5, 2021, his youngest son was elected Georgia`s first black United States senator and only the 11th in the nation`s history. What would he think about the attack on the Capitol the very next day? Both say something profound about the America he knew and the one he always knew we could become."
[19:50:15]
Joining me now is Senator Raphael Warnock author of the new book "A Way Out of No Way: A Memoir of Truth, Transformation, and the New American Story," which I`m very excited to read.
Senator and Reverend Dr. Warnock, thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate you.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: So, tell me, what do these two parallel events, what do they say about our country?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Thank you so much, Joy. It is great to be here with you.
Listen, every family has a complicated story, all of our families. And there are parts of our family story that we may not be eager to confront. But that`s the only way healing comes.
And, as you point out, I was elected on January 5, alongside Jon Ossoff, the state`s first black senator and first Jewish senator, elected in one fell swoop. I like to think that, somewhere, Martin Luther King Jr. and Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel are smiling, because they marched alongside one another.
And we came to the Senate on the wave of a multiracial coalition, I think the future of the country. Then, on January 6, we saw this violent attack on the Capitol driven by the big lie, and the not-so-subtle premise that certain voices and votes don`t count. You don`t get to determine the future of the country.
And so we`re at this inflection point. And we have got to decide, are we the America of January 5 or the America of January 6? I choose January 5. I choose what Dr. King called beloved community. And when I think about my dad, who I mentioned, I talk about in that essay, born in 1917, a World War II veteran who was once asked to give up his seat to a white teenager while riding the bus in his uniform, but saw the arc of history in our country, I remain hopeful.
And we must all remain vigilant.
REID: Well, I mean, the reality is, is that January 5, in some ways, caused January 6, right?
I mean, that reality that a state like Georgia in the South, a state that historically has been a repository of racism, et cetera, and oppression produces this black and this Jewish senator because of the change in the vote, like, that`s what they were mad about, right? It`s that new electorate that is capable of electing you and Jon Ossoff that people were so angry about.
So, I mean, what do you expect and hope to hear when two Republican members who are still elected officials in your state, Brad Raffensperger, who we know Donald Trump pressured to try to give him the election, and his deputy, Gabriel Sterling -- they`re going to testify to this same January 6 Committee.
What do you -- what do you -- do you think anything about what happened changed them and their perspective about politics?
WARNOCK: Well, I think Georgia, in a real sense, saved the country, gave the country a chance to fight and push towards its ideals.
And as a kid who was born and raised in that state, I`m very proud of what the people of Georgia did. We, again, have to remain vigilant. As I talk about my story in this memoir, "A Way Out of No Way," which, by the way, is a phrase that comes out of the black church.
REID: Yes.
WARNOCK: It is a phrase, as you know, God makes a way out of no way. It`s born of struggle. And it`s born of challenge and oppression, and yet keeping the faith, even in the midst of challenge. We have to keep the faith, and we have to keep up the fight.
And so I remain hopeful. And I`m not about to give up on our democracy. And it`s the most precious thing we can defend at a moment like this.
REID: You -- and you speak about your faith. You do pastor the church of the great Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
I think we have a picture that shows that Ebenezer Baptist Church. You still preach at that church. You`re still an active pastor.
Do you recall what the first sermon is that you preach after the January 6 insurrection and what you said to your -- to that beautiful church?
WARNOCK: Yes, I -- forgive me. I preach every Sunday.
(LAUGHTER)
WARNOCK: But it all kind of runs together after a while.
But I think I talked about this tension, this creative tension that we live in. And both speak to an important part of who we are. We can`t pretend like January 6 isn`t a part of us. It is. But the good news is, so as January 5. And when I think about my own improbable journey, when I think not only about my dad, but my mom, who grew up in Waycross, Georgia, picking somebody else`s cotton and tobacco, those 82-year-old hands that used to pick somebody else`s cotton and tobacco picked her youngest son to be a United States senator.
And, yes, there are challenges. There are moments when the democracy expands. There are moments when it contracts. But even contractions can give birth to new possibilities and a new world, and we have to fight for it.
[19:55:07]
REID: I would be remiss if I didn`t ask you, though.
I hate to have you have to even address it, but you are facing -- what do you make of the fact that the voters on the other side of the aisle chose someone like Herschel Walker, who is a football legend? I used to revere him as a football player. But given all of his challenges, his sort of pound cake speech version of what black men should be doing in terms of the home, and the reality of his own situation vis-a-vis babies and mamas, what do you make of that hypocrisy and the fact that he is who Republicans think is fit to serve in the United States Senate and to remove you from the Senate?
WARNOCK: I think that, in the midst of -- I think that, in the midst of this campaign, the people of Georgia have a real choice before them about who they think is ready to represent them in the United States Senate.
I`m proud of my lifelong commitment to service and how I have translated that into the Senate and the work that we`re doing to fight for ordinary hardworking families.
REID: That was very diplomatic.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: That`s because you`re a pastor, so that -- a man of God. That was very diplomatic.
Senator Raphael Warnock, thank you very much. Congratulations on the book.
WARNOCK: Thank you.
REID: And special coverage, for all of our audience -- cheers.
And special coverage of today`s dramatic hearing is coming up next, with all of our friends. You can see them there.
So, don`t go anywhere.