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Transcript: The ReidOut, 3/28/22

Guests: Sharon Kay Edwards, Eric Swalwell, John Ray Clemmons

Summary

Has America become ungovernable? Tennessee Democratic state Representative John Ray Clemmons discusses attempted books bans in his state. President Biden calls for an enormous new military package for Ukraine, as concerns grow that Russia is getting ready to escalate its brutal invasion beyond Ukraine`s borders. Audiotapes and text messages shine new light on the Republican efforts to undo the last election. Congressman Eric Swalwell discusses the January 6 investigation and the current state of the Republican Party.

Transcript

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Put Scooter and Ari into YouTube and find the whole 40-minute interview.

You can always find me online @AriMelber on social media or at AriMelber.com. Connect with me. It`s where I keep up with a lot of BEAT viewers about this stuff that doesn`t always make it into the hour.

Speaking of that, time`s up.

"THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" starts now.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone.

We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with a question that has been just bugging me increasingly over the last few years, even more so after that coup attempt last January, and it is this: Has America become ungovernable?

Now, just hold on. Just let me -- let me tease this out a little bit. President Joe Biden won the 2020 election with more than 81 million votes, seven million more than Donald Trump got, a clear majority, on an agenda that includes things that are demonstrably popular with Americans, like protecting your right to vote? Sixty-two percent of voters support making it illegal to prevent someone from registering to vote.

Police reform. Particularly after the George Floyd murder, more than two- thirds of Americans say our criminal justice system needs either a complete overhaul or major changes. There`s also gun reform, not ending gun ownership or confiscating people`s firearms. Most Americans don`t want that, but just making it so that our kids don`t have to do active shooter drills, and we can go to a Walmart in Texas or on the New York subway without having to duck and cover from some mass shooter with an AR-15.

A majority of Americans think gun laws in this country should be more strict. That has 53 percent support. Majorities of women and men support women having a right to choose when it comes to pregnancy. And that number goes up even more when it comes to women and girls who have been victimized by rape or incest.

There`s also all that stuff that was in the Build Back Better bill, things Americans like, like expanding Medicare coverage, and universal pre-K, and making prescription drugs affordable, and reducing the cost of health plans under the ACA, extending the child tax credit, and fighting climate change by investing in clean energy and away from dirty fossil fuels, all that popular stuff.

And despite what Republicans try to tell you, the vast majority of Americans support some form of student debt forgiveness, especially younger Americans. Yet none of those things are law, and none of them are likely to become law, despite Democrats narrowly controlling both branches of the federal legislature and the White House.

Why? Because one or two senators can literally shut down every one of those things over the will of hundreds of representatives in the House, which has passed most of the things I just mentioned. And without 60 senators` approval, 327 million Americans cannot have nice things.

Oh, and one of our two viable political parties planned an actual insurrection and are probably going to do it again. So, I ask again, is America at this point in our history, and with a system that was designed by European men, who certainly never envisioned racial and gender equality or the kind of diversity that we have today or that anyone not like them would ever share power in this country, are we ungovernable?

Joining me now is my friend Lawrence O`Donnell, host of the great "THE LAST WORD" here on MSNBC.

All right, Lawrence, talk me down, if you can.

(LAUGHTER)

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, "THE LAST WORD": Thanks for giving me a nice, easy subject.

REID: We like to keep it simple.

O`DONNELL: This is simply the biggest subject I have ever discussed on television. It is an enormous question. And for some periods of our history, the country did seem reasonably governable and reasonably well- governed, if you were white, and if you had property, and -- but then, as this -- as the Civil War approached, slavery was tearing the country apart.

And it seemed like, no, these -- this is a gigantic issue, on which two different sections of the country have completely different views, to the point that a group of the states said, you know what, don`t think this can be a country.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: We`re going to make -- we`re going to call us, ourselves, the Confederate states.

So we saw that. That belief took hold very strongly, that, no, it cannot be. You`re asking this one place to absorb too much conflicting thought. And so you look at the United States now. And you said, well, we`re not -- we certainly are not governing as a country.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: So, what -- the governable question is clearly one that begins with, we`re not governing.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: So, on something like abortion, the notion that, well, in some states, you have certain rights and, in other states, you have -- you don`t have the same rights is the kind of thing that literally defines different countries.

REID: Right. Right.

O`DONNELL: That`s why there`s a Luxembourg and a Belgium...

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: ... instead of, let`s just put them all together.

REID: Right. Yes.

O`DONNELL: And -- but it`s not just that.

It`s this other thing that`s been with us forever that no one even notices as uniquely peculiar to the United States of America. How much your tax burden is depends on where you live.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: It depends on the state government that you live under. And there are states that have no income tax. There are states that have much higher sales taxes, states with higher property taxes, then other taxes.

[19:05:09]

And that`s another thing that defines elsewhere in the world separate countries.

REID: Different countries. Right. Right.

O`DONNELL: And so we have these really peculiar things that have developed because we have these 50 different governments within the federal government that make this place behave as more than one country, and then always -- but then, always, we must live under this sort of faith and declaration that we are one country.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And I say it is both a declaration and true and it`s law. But there`s also a faith element to it.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: There`s that thing, and it comes out when people say things like, oh, we`re better than this.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: Well, maybe in your neighborhood, you are.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: Or, maybe in your state, you are.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: But no.

(CROSSTALK)

O`DONNELL: I don`t know. Who`s the we that you`re talking about when you say that?

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And that`s an expression of faith about who we, America, is...

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: ... as a group of people.

And so this has been -- we`re now in a period where questioning the very governability of the 50 states is a very, very ripe question.

And we go we go through decades where it doesn`t feel like a reasonable question at all.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: It just -- it feels like, oh, no, we`re kind of moving along. And, yes, that was a struggle.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And we got that. And then we -- they did get voting rights in `65.

You do these things that make you feel like -- that American as these things makes it feel like that it`s functioning as a country and progressing. And then you have these fantastic national successes, like the space program...

REID: Sure.

O`DONNELL: ... the first person to set foot on the moon and all that, and that`s very -- that`s a national effort. It was a -- definitely, that was a 50-state effort with talent from 50 states.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: And so there`s all those rallying moments in our history where you can absolutely -- there`s no doubt about it that...

REID: Well, could I -- want to ask about that, because the rallying moments you`re talking about took place at a time -- and I feel like this is part of the challenge for Joe Biden the time when Biden grew up, and the time he recalls, the Kennedy era, right?

O`DONNELL: Mm-hmm.

REID: That was a time when there was almost no gender or racial diversity in the main legislative body.

O`DONNELL: Right.

REID: So, right, we`re an anti-majoritarian government. We`re...

O`DONNELL: Right.

REID: It`s designed to be anti-majoritarian on purpose.

O`DONNELL: Right.

REID: But the only agreements that had to be made had to be made between this old white guy and that old white guy.

And this old white guy and that old white guy could go have a cigar and decide, well, fundamentally, we agree on basically the same things. It gets a lot more difficult to even do this. I doubt you could do the space program now, because you would have one...

O`DONNELL: Right.

REID: ... Joe Manchin saying...

O`DONNELL: Well, you`re not.

REID: ... well, no, because I don`t want this and I don`t like the spending.

And then you would have Republicans saying, no, we don`t want to do anything because a Democrat is president, therefore, no space program, right? And then you have African-Americans, Latinos, LGBTQ people who aren`t even in the room. That infrastructure bill, they weren`t even in the room when they divided up $100 and -- $1.7 trillion.

So, you -- to me, with the diversity of the country and the different interests, and then one party saying they don`t even care about democracy at all, how do you actually get the Senate -- let`s just say the Senate. The Senate is ungovernable?

O`DONNELL: Well, the Senate -- now, case closed, the Senate is a disaster.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: It is a structural disaster. It was a disaster at birth.

But it got away with it for a very long time, this notion of two per state. The founders never dreamed there was going to be a place with this name California, with all these Spanish place names within it...

REID: Right. Right.

O`DONNELL: ... that was going to have a population that approached the size of France.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: They didn`t think they were going to have states like that.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: New York was your kind of biggest thing at the time, and it wasn`t that much bigger than the other ones.

And so the two per state thing has become an utter disaster. And that -- working across the street there in the United States Senate in the 1990s was when I really started to get focused on this subject, because I was working for big state, right?

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: I working for New York state, working for Senator Moynihan.

And you`re looking at funding issues for -- like, for mass transit, and it`s being held up by Alabama.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: And you go, now, just a minute.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: First of all, the funding for this is all coming from the rich states like New York and California anyway.

REID: From the blue states.

O`DONNELL: And what are you -- why is -- how does this happen?

And so it`s a fundamentally and relentlessly and permanently anti- democratic institution.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And more people are going to always vote for Democratic senators in the United States Senate, even when they end up with less Democratic senators in the Senate.

REID: Yes. Yes.

O`DONNELL: Because the Dakotas get four senators.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: The population is the size of Staten Island that get two senators.

REID: Well, so, then, in a -- in something like student loans -- let`s talk for specific -- let`s drill down to one specific issue.

It would be enormously politically helpful for Joe Biden if he could get student loan forgiveness, because one of the reasons he`s underwater with young voters is the stuff that he ran on, police reform didn`t pass. All the stuff we mentioned at the top did not pass.

[19:10:02]

But this would actually materially help millions of people who are millennials and younger, and just a lot of people of color. It would just help him politically. He cannot pass it because Joe Manchin is going to say no.

What do we do about that?

O`DONNELL: Well, see, one thing I`d like to do about it is, I would like to ask the voters who say, unless you forgive my student loans or a significant portion thereof, I am not going to vote for you, I am going to ask them how that became their single issue in the United States of America.

And are they willing to let everything else, everything else be handed over to the Republican Party? The Republican Party isn`t going to forgive one penny of your student loans.

REID: No, they won`t.

O`DONNELL: And so there`s this very peculiar notion that I guess you can determine in polls that Democratic voters -- or there`s a group of Democratic voters who are purely transactional, purely, 100 percent.

It`s, you forgive my student loans, and I vote for you. And if you don`t, I don`t care who`s on the Supreme Court and I don`t care who any of the federal judges are anywhere ever. And I don`t care about anything else.

You know who doesn`t vote like that?

REID: The Republicans.

O`DONNELL: Republicans.

REID: No.

O`DONNELL: Ever.

REID: Ever.

O`DONNELL: And, oh, by the way, you don`t -- you make the Republican voters get promises.

The promises are not delivered, except the tax cut promise.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: They always deliver that one, and they don`t deliver any other ones.

And the Republican voters say, OK, when do you want me to vote again for a Republican...

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: ... who will not build the wall, who will not do X?

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: But I`m going to vote for that person, because their votes actually are not transactional in the way that we are assuming that student loan vote is.

REID: Yes.

Well, I would argue -- and we out of time -- that one of the reasons Republicans get away with that is they make promises that they -- that cannot be kept, but that can seem to be kept.

The wall was never going to be built. Mexico was never going to pay for it. But Donald Trump could fly down to the border, point to something, say that`s the wall, and that`s good enough for his voters. They could say, we`re going to ban all Muslims to the U.S. They`re not going to ban them all, but they can get some Muslims banned, and then they feel good.

He did feel-good stuff. But the only thing he actually materially did was tax cuts for the rich. And his voters don`t care, because it`s a cult.

O`DONNELL: Well, the media plays a big role here in presidential campaigns...

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: ... because they say to a presidential candidate, what are you going to do?

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And the candidate then says something that is legislative.

REID: Right.

O`DONNELL: And they think that`s an answer. And it`s a joke.

When someone says, I`m going to do X, and it happens in the legislature, they`re just guessing.

REID: Yes. Yes.

O`DONNELL: It`s not a promise. It`s just a guess.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: I could go on and on.

REID: Well, we could do this for an hour, guys. And, trust me, believe me, we could do this for an hour. But I am not allowed to do that, because I have to go to a commercial break.

Lawrence O`Donnell, we will see you at 10:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

O`DONNELL: Hey, can I borrow that chair at 10:00 p.m., because...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Oh, I thought you were going to say the jacket.

O`DONNELL: The chair. Well, the jacket too.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Because I am...

REID: Because you can borrow both.

O`DONNELL: I am here in the Joy studio in Washington.

REID: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And I`m going to partake in the joy of the studio at 10:00 p.m.

REID: We will definitely change the logos. You probably don`t want the jacket, but you can have the chair.

O`DONNELL: The jacket...

REID: It`s a deal.

O`DONNELL: Leave the jacket.

REID: But think about the jacket.

O`DONNELL: OK.

REID: OK.

O`DONNELL: All right.

REID: Lawrence O`Donnell, thank you, my friend. Appreciate it.

Be sure to watch Lawrence tonight and on "THE LAST WORD" 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.

Up next on THE REIDOUT: President Biden calls for an enormous new military package for Ukraine, as concerns grow that Russia is getting ready to escalate its brutal invasion beyond Ukraine`s borders.

Also, the audiotapes and text messages shine new light on the Republican efforts to undo the last election. So how is that no -- how is it that no members of Congress have faced any consequences for their actions?

Plus:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. JOHN RAY CLEMMONS (D-TN): Let`s say you take these books out of the library. What are you going to do with them? You going to put them in the street, light them on fire? Where are they going?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Representative Sexton.

STATE REP. JERRY SEXTON (R-TN): I don`t have a clue, but I would burn them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Democratic state Representative John Ray Clemmons Tennessee, who called out the book banners and the would-be book burners, joins me tonight.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:18:33]

REID: Today is Yom HaShoah, the internationally recognized Holocaust Remembrance Day, a day set aside to commemorate the approximately six million Jews murdered by Nazi Germany and their collaborators.

It`s a day meant to reflect on the unspeakable atrocities and horrors of World War II, but also is a stark warning to the world to never let it happen again. And yet here we are. This time, Russian troops are murdering Ukrainians in an attempt to erase their history, culture and identity.

In Bucha, mass graves continue to be unearthed, as families line up to identify the bodies of their loved ones. Forensic experts are working around the clock to identify the more than 400 people murdered by Russian invaders there. In Kherson, a city under Russian occupation in the east, Russians are wiping out any trace of Ukraine, replacing their flag, their language their currency, despite public protests.

Some 300 men have been kidnapped and tortured, and women are in constant fear of rape at the hands of Russian soldiers. Today, Russian bombs struck the capital, Kyiv, killing one and injuring several more. Russia has warned Western countries not to -- quote -- "test our patience" after the United States and Britain publicly backed Ukraine`s right to strike Russian territory, which followed a spate of mysterious fires on the Russian side of the border.

And this week, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov warned that the risk of a nuclear conflict was serious and real. Today, President Biden submitted a request to Congress to provide Ukraine with an additional $33 billion, a dramatic increase in us funding, as well as new legal tools to siphon assets from Russian oligarchs.

[19:20:14]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We`re not attacking Russia. We`re helping Ukraine defend itself against Russian aggression. And just as Putin chose to launch this brutal invasion, he could make the choice to end this brutal invasion.

Russia is the aggressor, no if, ands, or buts about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Earlier this week, Russia cut off gas supplies to two European allies, Bulgaria and Poland, after insisting they pay in rubles, which is forbidden by sanctions. They refused to pony up. And so the Russians cut them off.

The president of the European Commission called it what it was, blackmail. However, Bloomberg is reporting that some European countries from Italy, Hungary and elsewhere, have met Putin`s demands.

Russia has been using that money to fund its attack on Ukraine. According to "The Guardian," Russia has doubled its revenues, despite selling less gas. The soaring prices caused by their invasion has been a financial boon.

With me now, former CIA Director John Brennan, who is an MSNBC national security analyst, and former U.S. Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, who is an MSNBC international affairs analyst.

Thank you both for being here.

Director Brennan, I do want to start with you, because this is the unending puzzle untangle of, how do you deal with a global bully who also has nukes and who also holds the gas tank? Do you take seriously Russia`s threats to use nuclear weapons, number one? And, number two, should Europe respond to their threats by saying, to hell with your gas?

JOHN BRENNAN, MSNBC SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, first of all, I think we have to be mindful that Russia does -- is a nuclear power.

But, at the same time, I think this has a lot of nuclear saber-rattling as a way to threaten and to intimidate the West and Europe. And so, therefore, I think that Putin still wants to try to win this war with conventional military might, and not going to escalate to a nuclear realm.

As far as Europe is concerned, I do think what Putin is trying to do now by cutting off gas supplies to Bulgaria and to Poland is to demonstrate that he has some leverage with them and is trying to fracture the NATO alliance that has been very, very strong and determined to provide the support that Ukraine needs.

And so, therefore, I would expect that Putin is going to continue to try to put pressure on the West and Europe using these levers that he has, particularly on the energy front.

But I think, based on my discussions with some Europeans, that they are -- they realize that the threat that Europe poses, not just to Ukraine, but to Europe more broadly, is very, very serious. And this is the time for them to stay strong.

REID: Same question to you, Ambassador McFaul.

Do you take seriously Russia`s threats, knowing them as you do, knowing Putin and his people as you do? Do you take their nuclear threats seriously? And should the rest of Europe just tell them to hell with their gas?

MICHAEL MCFAUL, NBC NEWS INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I agree with John. I think we need to listen seriously. When you`re talking about a nuclear power, everything is serious.

But if you look and listen more closely, I think it`s a smaller threat than I think people understand. At the beginning of the war, Putin said: I`m going to put my weapons on alert.

And he was talking about strategic nuclear weapons. We now know that he didn`t do that. There was no change in their status. And he rolled out two very important spokespeople, his spokesperson, Mr. Peskov, and the former president, Mr. Medvedev, to say: We will only do that when there`s an existential threat against Russia.

And, thankfully, there isn`t, as President Biden just said. So I think that`s off the table.

A tactical nuclear weapon is also something that`s been threatened and reported that maybe they will use if they`re losing the war, right? But, again, I think it`s a low probability event. And I also think we should be careful to assume that, if they use God forbid, a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine, that IT would have the same effect as it did in Japan in 1945.

I can imagine it having the opposite effect and the Ukrainians deciding to fight even further because of the use of a nuclear weapon against them.

REID: And I -- to that very point, because there doesn`t seem to be any -- I`m going to stay with you for one moment, Ambassador McFaul -- incentive for Ukraine to even negotiate with these people at this point.

Here`s a story from the BBC. Europeans -- Ukrainians are being deported to Russia and mistreated. One Ukrainian Red Cross volunteer was captured by Russian forces, per the BBC, and deported to Russia, is blindfolded, beaten with rifles, punched and kicked. After being held for nearly a week in Ukraine, he was transported with others to Belarus. He was then transferred to Russia, where he was beaten again.

He was returned to Ukraine after a prisoner -- a prisoner swap. A bit more. In Belarus, these men -- these prisoners were given an identity document. It says it was issued by the military of the Russian Federation and describes his place of birth as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which is how Ukraine was known before the breakup of the Soviet Union.

[19:25:03]

These people -- there`s no point negotiating with Russia at this point, right? Ukraine just has to beat them.

MCFAUL: Well, it`s very hard to negotiate when they`re doing those things.

And I want to remind everybody, Ukraine`s a democracy, right? So, even if Mr. Zelenskyy wanted to negotiate, it`d be very difficult, given these horrific, horrendous -- I have run out adjectives to describe it.

REID: Yes.

MCFAUL: I don`t even like the word war, by the way, because it`s not war when you use cruise missiles to kill babies.

But we also know from history wars tend to end. Either one side wins, as you just described, or there might -- a stalemate on the battlefield. And, right now, neither of those conditions are there. And so I suspect both sides think they can still advance their aims through military objectives.

And that`s why the war in Donbass is going to go on for a long time, and it`s going to get a lot, lot worse, in my opinion.

REID: Yes, unfortunately.

Director Brennan, I wonder what you make of the fact that we have near unanimity in this country. There is only -- there are only a very small number of people, Republicans mainly, who oppose Ukraine and do not strongly take the side of Ukraine in this -- I can`t call it a war. It`s simply a terrorist act against a sovereign country.

But you did have 10 House Republicans vote against giving military aid to Ukraine. What do you make of that?

BRENNAN: Well, I think it`s unconscionable.

I thought it also sends a very bad signal globally that we do have individuals in Congress. And it`s not just those 10 House members. I was listening to the comments of Rand Paul the other day, whose ignorance of national security matters is only exceeded by the lunacy and the very dangerous sentiments that he expresses publicly.

These are things that, for whatever reason, they do not understand the importance of what`s going on in Ukraine right now, not just to the Ukrainian people, but also to U.S. national security interests.

And so, therefore, I think this decision that is moving forward in Congress, and is going to be going to President Biden, in terms of approving of $33 billion in aid to Ukraine, is critically important, because it sends a signal, not just to the Ukrainian people and to the government that we`re behind them, but also to Vladimir Putin.

We`re not going to slow down. In fact, we`re going to increase our support, because it`s a war to stop Russian aggression against Ukraine and against the broader region overall. And so, therefore, I can`t understand how American politicians of any stripe are going to object to our continued support to what I think is really going to be a determining battle in our fight against this Russian aggression.

REID: Yes, indeed.

Director John Brennan, Ambassador Michael McFaul, gentlemen, thank you both very much.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: And still ahead -- cheers.

A brief moment of silence for Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene`s memory. Apparently, she can`t recall basically anything related to January 6, which is either very sad or a very calculated attempt to avoid facing the consequences of her actions.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:38]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Right now, there`s a group...

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS: So you didn`t advocate -- you never advocated martial law, that President Trump should use martial law to stop the transition of power? You never advocated for that, did you?

GREENE: I don`t recall ever advocating for martial law.

If you put that text message up, it`s clear and easy to read that -- if that`s my text messages, and that`s what they`re reporting -- I don`t recall if they are -- but, if they are, those text messages do not say calling for martial law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So, you`re saying you conveniently don`t recall pitching a plan to overthrow the government, but, if you did do it, it`s OK, right, because you were just passing the message along?

OK.

So, for anyone who needs a reminder, here`s what Marjorie Taylor Greene texted -- quote -- "In our private chat with members, several are saying the only way to save our republic is for Trump to call for martial law." Do ignore the spelling.

And we know that she`s not the only one, with Congressman Scott Perry suggesting using the director of national intelligence to overthrow the election.

Meanwhile, Republican House leadership is downplaying any critique that they previously made of the insurrection caucus in their party, frankly, because the insurrectionists are the party. Otherwise, why on earth would Steve Scalise deign to say -- quote -- "I`m sorry if this caused you problems" to Matt Gaetz for suggesting that he may have acted illegally after the insurrection?

And why hasn`t Kevin McCarthy publicly defended his own comments about Gaetz pulling -- putting Republicans in jeopardy? I mean, it seems like the only time in recent memory that he`s been up in arms over behavior from a member of his caucus was when Madison Cawthorn accused Republicans of holding cocaine-fueled orgies. That apparently is the line that cannot and must not be crossed.

All of this new information is coming to light as the January 6 Committee is moving quickly. Moments ago, Chairman Bennie Thompson announced they would hold their first of eight public hearings starting on June 9. Ahead of that, they plan to re-up their request for Republicans, including little Kevin McCarthy, to appear before the committee by the end of the week.

With me now, Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He was a 2021 impeachment member.

I wonder what you make of Marjorie Greene`s new strategy of just saying "I don`t recall"? It sounds like she`s definitely got a lawyer and she`s been talking to him -- them a lot. But she simply doesn`t recall. And Kevin McCarthy`s indifference to that lack of recollection?

[19:35:01]

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Joy, they talk such a big game all the time, and then, when they`re caught, literally on audio or text message, they shrink?

I just don`t get it. I mean, they project all the time. Like, they call Democrats, snowflakes, but these people are so afraid to defend what they said privately. You saw Scott Perry running away from another network`s reporter yesterday on the House steps.

I mean, if this is what you believe, I don`t agree with you. I think it`s wrong, may be traitorous. But why can`t you defend it? And, again, they are so weak, they`re so afraid, they`re so cowardly, but what they want to do in private should very, very much concern all of us, because, if anything, they`re even more emboldened by a Trump base that is more and more supporting and more comfortable with violence than voting.

And that`s what we`re up against right now.

REID: Well, I mean, the thing is, what`s interesting is that Republicans have shown that, when they do want to rebuke and police their own, they can.

They have come down like a ton of bricks on little Madison Cawthorn, not for his insurrectionism, not for sort of fetishizing Hitler`s bunker, not for the bringing the gun into the Capitol, not for any of the stuff that most people are aghast by, but because he said the porn thing.

SWALWELL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: And once he said that, it does seem like a world of hurt is -- he`s, like, getting leaked. The leaks are not coming from Democrats. They`re leaking everything they can find on this guy.

And even his own -- one of his -- the senators from his home state is out savaging him.

SWALWELL: That`s right.

Joy, you can lead an insurrection. You can say that the Catholic Church is run by satanists. You can sympathize with gun laws that embolden mass shooters. But the second you talk about the party`s cocaine and orgies, you`re done, you`re toast.

I mean, that`s really where they are right now. This is a party that is tougher on Mickey Mouse than they are on Russia, harsher on Dr. Seuss than they are on insurrectionists. And, of course, they have gone after Liz Cheney, who has shown consistent integrity through and through, more tough than they have on Paul Gosar, who has threatened through images and videos to kill Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Joe Biden.

REID: Nightmare with me for just a moment, because you have had Kevin McCarthy, who essentially -- he`s not responding. He said, well, Trump had no reaction. He`s basically saying, Trump excused me for saying all the truth that I really believe.

There`s billboards running in his home state basically calling him a liar. If he becomes speaker, he is a wholly owned property of Donald Trump, just like J.D. Vance would be, even though J.D. Vance used to say that Donald Trump might be Hitler. They`re all Trump`s property at this point if they get into leadership, right?

And so my question is, what then becomes of the House of Representatives?

SWALWELL: Right. Donald Trump is speaker of the House if Kevin McCarthy were to win.

And I want you to know we have no intention of losing the midterms. We have delivered. They have divided.

But Kevin McCarthy, we would all be better off if his affair with integrity had lasted longer than a week. But he`s gotten back together with the old big lie, and the party of the big lie is led by the biggest liar in Kevin McCarthy.

And so there will be no backstop. There will be no insurance policy. There will be no guarantee that when the next coup or insurrection is planned that the leader of the party, the speaker of the House would clamp down and prevent it from happening. And, in fact, he would just step aside and allow whatever Donald Trump preferred to take place.

REID: Michael Luttig, who is a very conservative legal scholar and former judge, has said that openly.

He did a CNN.com piece in which he said, yes. And he laid out the way the - - all the different ways in which they are 100 percent planning to steal the 2024 election and lock in whoever it is Trump or whoever, DeSantis, or whoever they run.

Let me play for you very quickly Chairman Bennie Thompson. And he was asked by our Ali Vitali here at NBC about leaked -- about these leaked texts. Take a look.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): I think, for somebody to -- in leadership or any member make a statement about his non-participation or opinions and, ultimately, it`s found out that that`s the complete opposite, it does not bode well for members of Congress.

People send us here to be truthful.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

REID: As true as that is -- and he`s a very calm man, Bennie Thompson. He is a gentleman.

But do you -- inside of the Democratic Caucus, do you think there is sufficient alarm about the clear determination up and down the ballot among Republicans from the state level all the way to the Congress and the United States Senate to implement the coup that failed last time and make it successful next time?

[19:40:01]

SWALWELL: Yes, Joy, the fear is that they are putting in place the building blocks to ensure that a Democrat would never win at the highest office again, and that there would never be a peaceful transition of power again, because there would never be a transition of power, because they -- through anti-voting measures that they`re putting in place, from the candidates that they`re nominating.

Look at Michigan, Joy. They have an attorney general candidate who is the Republican nominee who said he will put in jail the former attorney general if she loses. That`s where their mind-set is, again, violence over voting.

And, by the way, with Kevin McCarthy as the leader, what Bennie Thompson was alluding to there, he`s lost the public trust, and it`s up to the Republicans to nominate who they want to be their leader. If they want a 24-karat liar to be their leader, that`s fine. We will make sure the voters know about that.

Kevin McCarthy is a member of the Gang of Eight. That is the most intense, deepest dive that anyone in the United States gets on our intelligence operations and national security plans and intentions. And he`s proven himself to have been compromised by saying one thing and then publicly being shown to be a liar.

And I don`t think he should have that kind of access if he`s not a trustworthy individual.

REID: Well, hopefully, the Democratic Party is -- and any sane Republicans out there are prepared to make that case vigorously on the campaign trail, because the threat is real.

(CROSSTALK)

SWALWELL: ... is real.

REID: Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much, sir. Appreciate you.

And up next: A book banning push in the Tennessee legislature sparks heated debate and protest.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:10]

REID: Remember what a Tennessee school board voted to remove "Maus," the Pulitzer Prize-winning graphic novel about the Holocaust? I mean, maybe the board wanted to teach a nicer Holocaust? Or maybe they`re just good old- fashioned book banners.

But now they have the state on their side. On Wednesday, Tennessee legislators passed a bill that would grant a state-appointed textbook commission the final say on what books are deemed appropriate in public school libraries.

During debate on the House floor, the Republican sponsor of the bill, Jerry Sexton, who has lashed out against librarians before, suggested that librarians were the one signing off on these very bad books on library shelves, code for grooming. We see what you did there, Jerry.

But, hey, he didn`t really know how those books ended up there. What he did know was this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEXTON: What we do know is there`s been books that`s been put in our libraries that are obscene in nature, and certainly not age-appropriate for children, books that are pornographic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Representative John Ray Clemmons, a Democrat, asked for examples. You can imagine how that went.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLEMMONS: Can you give us a firm example of what school and what book you`re speaking of?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Representative Sexton?

SEXTON: I couldn`t give you some off the top of my head. But I could give you a list of books. And, to my knowledge, I think it was -- and I may not have these numbers exactly right, but they`re going to be real close,

I think we found obscene material in something like 93 out of 95 counties and school libraries. So they`re all over the place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: All over the place, yet he couldn`t name one single school.

Clemmons then raised one of the key points in this entire book banning debate. Why is the state making the decisions about books, instead of the educators?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLEMMONS: I think it`s fair to say what one person would deem inappropriate may not be what another person deems appropriate. And those who are adequately trained and educated and knowledgeable enough with the experience to make those decisions are called librarians.

And we employ them and pay them with taxpayer money for a reason. I don`t understand why we would be taking authority away from them to decide what is best in an educational setting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: But the drop -- the jaw-dropping moment finally arrived when Sexton shared what he planned to do with all these fake obscene books.

Let`s just say "Fahrenheit 451" doesn`t feel so much like fiction these days. I will tell you what Sexton said right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:53:23]

REID: The Republican-led Tennessee Statehouse just passed a bill that allows the state`s textbook commission to approve or reject books in school libraries.

When a Democratic lawmaker challenged the Republican sponsor of the bill, well, the exchange felt downright dystopian.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLEMMONS: Let`s say you take these books out of the library. What are you going to do with them? You going to put them in the street, light them on fire? Where are they going?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Representative Sexton.

SEXTON: I don`t have a clue, but I would burn them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Joining me now is the Democratic state representative in that exchange, John Ray Clemmons of Tennessee, and Sharon Kay Edwards, president of the Tennessee Library Association.

The mind reels, Representative.

Let me start with you. So, apparently, NBC News reports that there`s another representative named Gloria Johnson, who is a Democrat, said that: "History has not looked kindly on those who banned and burned books. I`m not sure that is who we want to be included with," she said.

And Sexton`s response was: "Don`t worry. There won`t be any burned books" because he`s not on the commission.

Your thoughts?

CLEMMONS: Well, that`s where we are in the state of Tennessee right now and, sadly, across the country.

We have the Tennessee GOP and Republicans across the country want to pull books off the bookshelves. And, obviously, some of them want to burn them. If we haven`t learned enough from history, I think we`re in trouble. This is -- this is where we are, sadly.

REID: And we are on Holocaust Remembrance Day. And so it`s really -- that conversation about book burning, we haven`t -- the world hasn`t really had that conversation, at least since then.

Or, if you talk about the Soviet Union, we`re dealing with all this stuff in Ukraine. That`s where people burn books.

Did you ever get an answer to your question, Representative Clemmons, about what specific books offend the representative who put this bill forward?

[19:55:09]

CLEMMONS: No, I mean, we have asked them this in committee.

And this isn`t the first bill. I mean, that`s the thing. And they have had multiple bills this year to remove books from bookshelves and to limit access to the Internet and place additional filters on the Internet. They`re trying to limit all information to our children in any educational environment that they possibly can, and with some hopes, I guess, of trying to indoctrinate our children into whatever they subjectively deem appropriate.

But, no, I never got any answer from them. Of course, they don`t have any examples. It`s just all trying to score some political points in a very, very dangerous way. For whatever purpose, I don`t know.

But as someone with children, my wife`s Jewish, and we are raising our children Jewish. And it`s very disturbing, on this day and any other day of the year, quite honestly. We have seen this play out. We know how this goes. We know what this indicates. And it`s greatly disturbing. And it`s is really a sad time for our country.

REID: Yes, it definitely is.

I`m very glad to also have you here, Sharon Kay Edwards. I love librarians. I grew up running around the library. That was what my mom used to take my sister and my brother and me to the library. We could just pick any books we want. We would have piles of them.

And it was so joyful to just -- it was a discovery every week -- every weekend that we could go and hang out in the library. I can`t imagine anyone wanting to limit that discovery process and that fun for kids. But this is disturbing, even trying to say that we`re going to take it out of the library, but we`re also going to try to limit the access to books on the Internet.

The country that does that is China. That`s what this sounds like. This sounds like communist China. Your thoughts on all of this?

SHARON KAY EDWARDS, PRESIDENT, TENNESSEE LIBRARY ASSOCIATION: Well, the first thing I`m going to have to say is that this is not a problem at all.

For them to say that school libraries and libraries in general are providing obscene materials to children, that`s a flat-out lie. Tennessee has a harmful-to-minors law on the books already. So, if that were the case, we would already be in jail.

REID: Right.

EDWARDS: The items that they have issue with are freely available to all ages at Walmart, at Amazon, or Parnassus in Nashville, at any other bookstore, to all ages.

And, again, if they were obscene, that would not be the case. So we don`t have an issue here. What we do have is an attempt at government censorship, which is when the government tries to remove books based on the ideology or any ideas in them.

And that stops -- well, that`s a First Amendment violation, because we know that, per a court case which I can`t recall right now, but the First Amendment rights don`t stop at the schoolhouse gate.

REID: Yes. Let`s talk about some of the people in...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Let`s talk about some of the people involved in this sort of commission.

According to "The Tennessean," there`s a woman on this list named Laurie Cardoza-Moore. And part of her history, she stopped -- tried to stop the construction of a mosque. She spread false information about the election. She seems to be a sort of a MAGA-Trump person.

And very quickly to each of you.

Sharon Kay Edwards, does this feel to you like the attempt, as the representative said, to limit information, so that they can indoctrinate children with a particular right-wing ideology instead?

EDWARDS: I do -- I do see that is an attempt.

I would also say that it`s twofold, perhaps, an attempt to not only indoctrinate people and to limit the information that they receive and to skew history, to rewrite history, but also to break public schools. There`s a whole layer.

Representative Clemmons, thank you, by the way, for what you said about librarians and. That was so sweet.

(LAUGHTER)

EDWARDS: But he could speak more to this, but there`s a whole thing in Tennessee right now with charter schools...

REID: Yes.

EDWARDS: ... and public schools being -- money being pulled from it. There was a funding thing I think was passed today or yesterday.

REID: Yes.

EDWARDS: It`s a whole -- a whole big old mess down here.

REID: Yes.

No, let me -- let me let you speak to that, then, Representative Clemmons. Is this an attempt to break public schools?

CLEMMONS: Yes.

And it`s only one piece of the puzzle. So, what they`re trying to do is reduce conference -- confidence in our public schools. They have done it with CRT. They have done it with this. Books are a threat to the children. We just passed a funding formula today that opens up the floodgates for Hillsdale College.

Governor Lee has made it clear he wants Hillsdale College open at least 50 charter schools in Tennessee.

REID: Yes.

CLEMMONS: They are putting this puzzle together, and one piece at a time. And this is just one more piece.

And it`s a very, very dangerous path down which we`re heading. And it`s all designed to dismantle our public schools as we know them. And then I`m -- I truly believe it`s to limit the education and the full education of our students.

And it is really disturbing.

REID: People should pay attention to this, because this is what the old Soviet Union did. This is what communist China does. This is what they do in Cuba. This is not what we`re supposed to be doing in America.

Libraries are great. They`re the greatest place on earth. And we should have -- they should be open and free to our children. And what they`re doing, that`s grooming. That`s what I call grooming.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: State Representative John Ray Clemmons and Sharon Kay Edwards, thank you.

That is THE REIDOUT for tonight.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.