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Rudy Giuliani TRANSCRIPT: 8/6/20, The ReidOut

Guests: Ben Rhodes; Richard Besser, David Enrich, Brittany Gilliam, Britany Gilliam, David Lane, Charles Booker, Jamie Harrison

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: The suit says the campaign is using the music as a  kind of a, quote, theme song and accuses it of divisive and un-American  campaigning of ignorance and hate, which Neil Young doesn`t want to co- sign. That`s a little political musical update for you.

Stay tuned right now. THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid is up next.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Donald Trump is a desperate, desperate man,  frantically seeking a way out. In the face of poll after poll showing him  losing to Joe Biden badly, he`s been throwing everything at the wall to see  what sticks.

And his new tactic as well, weird. He now seems to be claiming that the man  that many refer to as Uncle Joe is not just a man, oh, no, Joe Biden is  some all-powerful negative force and an absolute threat to your windows.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They want to defund the  police and Biden wants to defund the police.


TRUMP: Now, Joe Biden is pushing a platform that would demolish the U.S.  economy, totally demolish it, mandate net zero carbon emissions for homes,  offices.

That basically means no windows, no nothing.

There will be no safety, no security, no peace, no justice in Joe Biden`s  America. You and your family will never be safe.


REID: No windows? Okay, none of that makes any sense. But go off, Trump.

And today, the upside-down bible man rolled out an even more ludicrous  argument, suggesting that Joe Biden is so powerful, he threatens everything  in existence, from guns to God himself.


TRUMP: He`s going to do things that nobody ever would ever think even  possible, take away your guns, destroy your Second Amendment, hurt the  bible, hurt God.


REID: That`s powerful.

And the thing about Trump`s latest attack on Biden is that it`s similar to  the crazy conspiracy theories that he`s so fond of in that it`s both untrue  and insane.

The Biden campaign did take the time to reply to Trump`s lunatic assertion,  saying, quote, Joe Biden`s faith is at the core of who he is. He`s lived it  with dignity his entire life, and it`s been a source of strength and  comfort in times of extreme hardship. Donald Trump is the only president in  our history to have tear-gassed peaceful Americans and thrown a priest out  of her church just so he could profane it and a bible for his own cynical  optics. True, true.

But perhaps the wildest thing about Trump`s attack on all powerful Joe the  Destroyer, is that Biden is just a civilian at the moment. He literally  holds no governmental power. He`s an ex-vice president while Donald Trump  is the current president of the United States. He is the one who has power.  But he`s not using it. He`s literally refusing to use the power that he  holds to fight the biggest threat facing Americans today, the coronavirus  pandemic, that has now taken the lives of more than 160,000 Americans.

In fact, rather than marshalling a national response to this health and  economic catastrophe, Donald Trump was running around Ohio today, turning  what was supposed to be an official presidential visit into a series of  faux campaign rallies. Despite the fact that Ohio`s governor, Mike DeWine,  who was supposed to greet him on the tarmac there in Cleveland himself  tested positive for the virus today ahead of Trump`s arrival.

Trump is spending every day pretending that everything is totally fine and  that he doesn`t need to do anything except tweet and give interviews and  complain. And if that`s not enough shear madness, today, Trump said that  despite it all, he wouldn`t change a thing.


GERALDO RIVERA, REPORTER: Don`t you wish you had done some things  differently?

TRUMP: I think, first of all, the governors run their states. You  understand that. Nobody has done a better job. We`ve done a great job and  we haven`t been rewarded with --

RIVERA: So you don`t admit any missteps? You don`t think that maybe if you  were a little more enthusiastic about it earlier?

TRUMP: I guess you could say people call things wrong, but that`s  understandable. Nobody --


REID: Joining me now Dr. Richard Besser, former Acting CDC Director, and  Ben Rhodes, former Deputy National Security Adviser in the Obama  administration.

And, Ben, I try to picture President Obama, the Ebola crisis happens. He  says, Ebola, what can you do, right? Or any of the crisis that he faced  during his administration and saying I think we`re doing all fine and I  can`t do anything about it. What do you make of the fact that it does  appear that the president of the United States, Donald Trump, doesn`t think  he has any power to do anything other than invade cities because of Black  Lives Matter?

BEN RHODES, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, you`re exactly  right, Joy. From the beginning of the crisis, he`s kind of talked about it  like something that was just happening that he had no agency over,  something that would disappear in the spring, something that would be gone  by Easter instead of marshalling the kind of (INAUDIBLE) and global  response that could make a difference.

And if you look at President Obama, that`s two things, one, modeling  certain behavior. So in H1N1 epidemic, President Obama made a point,  modeling certain behaviors, probably getting a photograph getting a flu  shot.

In Ebola, very clear in communicating to people how do you contact this  disease, what do you need to avoid, trying to produce signal, people had it  by hugging a nurse who would recover from Ebola in the Oval Office.

That type of modeling behavior would have led Donald Trump to be  encouraging people to wear masks, encouraging people to socially distance,  encouraging people to take the steps that could have bent the curve on this  virus early in the spring when it mattered the most.

And, secondly, marshalling that international response and national  response instead of just saying it`s up to the governors. Saying having a  patchwork of 50 different regulations for how we deal with this in a  federal union is not the way we go about this and having clear national  guidelines for how states and cities should be dealing with this.

And then, similarly, working around the world to make sure companies were  cooperating and getting necessary supplies and doing the necessary contact  tracing so we understood this disease better. Instead, he literally  withdrew the United States from the rest of the world from the World Health  Organization.

And what we`ve seen is every other single major country in the world has  handled this much better than us. It`s because we have nobody at the center  response modeling that behavior and marshalling a national and global  response.

REID: You know, that is the thing that I think for a lot of Americans is  really confounding and new. And, Dr. Besser, I`ll bring you in on this as  well. Here are the deaths in the United States compared to the next highest  countries, right? So we`re coupled in. You have Brazil, Mexico, the U.K.,  India, Italy, France, Spain, Peru, Iran and Russia. Look at our -- we`re  the blue line at the top, for those of you have on T.V., you have to squint  to see. We`re the blue line way up there.

It`s hard for a lot of Americans to understand how our president could  seems so helpless and so alone when, normally, you would think of the  United States sort of marshalling the world, let`s make a vaccine and being  a part of that and being completely separated from it. But then you have  Donald Trump saying this today. Here is him predicting -- so he has no  power to stop that but here he is saying there`s going to be a vaccine by  Election Day.


RIVERA: So what`s the earliest we could see that, a vaccine?

TRUMP: Sooner than the end of the year, could be much sooner.

RIVERA: Sooner than November 3rd?

TRUMP: Oh, I think in some cases, yes, it`s possible before, but right  around that time.


REID: Dr. Besser, it`s clear he has no idea when there would be a vaccine.  He has clearly no agency at all over a vaccine being created. But the fact  he`s saying that to his supporters, because the people he`s talking to are  his people, does that worry you that he`s now overpromising on a vaccine?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: I mean, there are a couple of  things that really worry me. If we want to have the same type of curve in  the United States that we`re seeing across Europe, across so many different  countries where they have been able to control this and really drive the  numbers down to something that`s manageable and economies have been able to  reopen, it`s not going to be a vaccine that gets there.

It`s going to be these simple measures that countries have taken that  aren`t easy to do. But wearing masks and social distancing and making sure  that everyone has what they need to be able to protect themselves and their  families, these are the things that what we need to do.

And if people think that a vaccine is going to ride in and all of a sudden  this is going to go away, they are sorely mistaken for a number of reasons.  Any vaccine that is rushed through without the proper safety testing and  effectiveness testing, no one is going to want to get that vaccine and no  one in public health would recommend people get that vaccine. And that  really takes time.

The other thing is that there`s been this movie conception of a vaccine put  out there where in the last 20 minutes a vaccine is developed, everyone  gets a vaccine and we go back to our regular lives. Most vaccines provide  at best partial protection and the ability to ramp up production and  vaccinate massive numbers of people, billions of people will take time as  well.

So what I worry about big time is when politicians are saying the vaccine  is coming and that gives people an excuse not to do the things right now  that will save lives.

REID: Dr. Besser, are you not excited about the idea of a vaccine coming  out of the Kodak company? Apparently the Kodak company is getting out of  photographs business and becoming a drug company. Does that seem normal to  you that that is something that`s happening?

BESSER: One thing I am excited about is the amount of money that`s going in  to develop a vaccine. But I think we still have to keep in mind that  there`s no certainty that even with all these companies working to develop  vaccines that there will be one. There are many diseases, think about HIV,  dengue fever, where, for decades, we`ve worked on vaccines and we don`t  have one. I`m optimistic that there will be one but who knows. And who  knows when that will be.

And the other piece of this is, as we think about vaccines and we think  about vaccine distribution, we have to keep in mind what communities, what  parts of our population are getting hit the hardest, how do we ensure  people have confidence, that black and brown communities are part of this.  If the death rate for black Americans, Latino Americans is four to five  times that for white Americans, we have to make sure that we`re addressing  the needs there and making sure that every community has what it needs to  be safe.

REID: Yes. Ben, I want to read you a little bit of this New York Times  article, whose depressing title is The Unique U.S. Failure to Control the  Virus. This is a David Leonhardt piece that was published today. And it  says, when it comes to the virus, the United States has come to resemble  not the wealthy and powerful countries to which it is often compared but  instead to far poorer countries, like Brazil, Peru and South Africa, or  those with large migrant populations like Bahrain and Oman.

And, meanwhile, our president is getting rebuked by Twitter and Facebook  and pulled off of Twitter and told to shut down, and he can`t tweet -- post  on Facebook because he`s lying and saying children are completely immune.  He actually got rebuked by even Facebook, which has been pretty lax with  him up to now. I don`t know what we do about that. I mean, we don`t have a  place in the world other than as a source of pity.

RHODES: Yes, joy, I think when I started at the White House and when I  began working at the White House, you walk into the west wing and the first  thing that you`re struck by is how small it is, just a few desks with  people working there. And you realize government is a human endeavor. And  the human beings that you put in these positions matter a lot.

South Korea had an outbreak of this disease bigger than we did before we  did and they`re right next to China. They had a few hundred people die from  it because they did the right things. You`ll recall in March, Italy, Spain,  that (INAUDIBLE) very much like us, out of control, they got it out of  control.

This country elected someone president who habitually lies, who is not  interested in government, who has disparaged expertise and calls civil  service the deep state, who cannot look beyond the 24-hour media cycle, not  even that, the 24-second Twitter cycle that he lives in. He can`t do these  things.

This was evident to us when he was elected. It was evident to us for the  first three years of his presidency. And what happened is, inevitably, he  was not going to be equipped to deal with the crisis. He did not hire the  people who were equipped to deal with the crisis. He did not listen to the  experts, like Dr. Fauci, who is still in the government who could have  helped in deal with the crisis.

And the hard truth for Americans is, this did not need to happen. We did  not need to be sitting here with 160,000 people dead and an economy utterly  devastated. We are where we are because of the people who are running our  government. That`s what we need to decide in November.

REID: Before I let you go, I would be remiss if I didn`t ask you about the  situation in Lebanon very quickly, Ben Rhodes. Donald Trump went out and  called it an attack with no evidence of that. There are a lot of people  suffering, at least 130 people dead. What do you make of the quickness with  which he decide that he was just going to call it an attack when there`s no  evidence of that? It`s a tragedy but there`s no evidence it`s an attack.

RHODES: I think it`s incredibly irresponsible, Joy, and he provided no  evidence, whatsoever, to support that it was an attack. The government of  Lebanon itself suggested it was an accident. And, frankly, they are  suggesting that with some responsibility for the fact that perhaps this  accident took place.

And the reason it`s so dangerous, Joy, is that Lebanon is a country that  has suffered in the recent decades a civil war, massive influxes of  refugees, proxy wars between external powers, wars with Israel. And to  speculate like that risks adding to an already tragic situation, an element  of instability, an element of conspiracy theory.

This is the opposite of what a president should be doing. He should be  focused on trying to provide international support to people of Lebanon,  hundreds of thousands who are homeless right now in Beirut and not stirring  the pot, but he can`t resist doing it.

REID: Yes. And, indeed, there are former colonizers, the French, their  president, was in Lebanon comforting people. And they turn to them not the  United States. What a weird world.

Dr. Richard Besser, thank you, Ben Rhodes, thank you both very much.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, Trump and Deutsche Bank intertwined like a  Bavarian pretzel. Now, the bank is reportedly handing over Trump documents  to the Manhattan D.A. in a criminal inquiry.

Also tonight, Brittany Gilliam wrongly, traumatically arrested at gunpoint  in Aurora, Colorado along with four children. She joins me live.

Plus, you know what`s crazy? Donald Trump playing Live and Let Die before  his event today in Ohio during a pandemic that has killed more than 160,000  Americans.

But believe it or not, that`s not the craziest damn thing. Here is a clue.  What does Donald Trump think that he has in common with John Lewis?

Back with more of THE REIDOUT right after this.


REID: State prosecutors in New York are already closing in on Donald Trump  when it comes to his tax returns thanks to the Supreme Court`s ruling last  month. Now, The New York Times has revealed that the Manhattan`s District  Attorney`s Office issued a subpoena last year to Deutsche Bank for Trump`s  financial records. Most importantly, however, Deutsche Bank complied with  that subpoena.

Deutsche Bank is known as one of the few financial institutions willing to  take on the risk of lending to Trump`s money bleeding businesses, loaning  him more than $2 billion over the decades. They also have an unscrupulous  reputation having been busted for laundering money from Russia,  coincidentally.

According to The Times over a period of months last year, Deutsche Bank  provided detailed records, including financial statements and other  materials that Mr. Trump had provided to the bank as he sought loans.

So why are those particular documents important to prosecutors? Because  Trump`s former lawyer, Michael Cohen, alleged last year that Trump  misrepresented his assets to banks and to insurance companies to get more  favorable deals. 


REP. WILLIAM LACY CLAY (D-MO): To your knowledge, did the president or his  company ever inflate assets or revenues? 


REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): To your knowledge, did the president  ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? 

COHEN: Yes. 

CLAY: And was that done with the president`s knowledge or direction? 

COHEN: Everything was done with the knowledge and at the direction of Mr.  Trump.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Do you think we need to review his financial statements and  his tax returns in order to compare them? 

COHEN: Yes. 


REID: Do I need to also say that inflating your assets to a financial  institution is illegal?

Furthermore, a court filing Monday appears to confirm that prosecutors are  indeed investigating Trump for alleged insurance and bank fraud.

I`m joined now by the author of that explosive "New York Times" report,  David Enrich, author of "Dark Towers: Deutsche Bank, Donald Trump, and an  Epic Trail of Destruction," and former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance. 

Mr. Enrich, walk us through what you think it means that Deutsche Bank  complied with these records and whether the question on the table for  Donald Trump would be whether he could be prosecuted for said crimes, for  potential alleged crimes, I should say.

DAVID ENRICH, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, it`s really significant that  Deutsche Bank has complied with the subpoena. 

The subpoenas have been flying fast and furious at Deutsche Bank for a few  years now. But this is the first, to my knowledge, at least the first in a  criminal investigation, where the bank has actually been handing over  extensive materials and documents to prosecutors.

And Deutsche Bank, as the primary lender to Trump over the past two  decades, has collected an enormous volume of information and secret stuff  about him over that time period. And so the fact that they are now  providing that to criminal prosecutors, who can use it against him is -- we  don`t know exactly what`s in there, but it`s potentially very significant. 

And it`s a big milestone. And it allows the district attorney to try and  build a case based on much more evidence than has previously seen the light  of day. 

REID: You know, and, Joyce, I am now even more intrigued by the lengths to  which William Barr seems to have gone to keep Michael Cohen incarcerated,  because he wanted to write a book. 

Michael Cohen has been very open. He testified under oath that, yes, Donald  Trump inflated the value of his properties, inflated and deflated them  depending on what he wanted. If, in fact, Donald Trump was doing that,  committing bank and insurance fraud, A, how hard would it be to prove it? 

B, could Michael Cohen be a key witness? And in that case, would be -- how  much value would he be to a prosecutor? And, C, would we be talking about  federal prosecution or along with state prosecution for Trump after he`s  out of office?

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: So, here, we have got an unusual situation,  Joy, because what`s just been described sounds a lot like core federal  crimes, bank fraud, maybe wire fraud, of course, potentially, if the  evidence were to pan out.

But we have a state prosecutor, the Manhattan district attorney, who`s  clearly the one driving this investigation, which means that if it comes to  fruition, there will be grand jury charges under state law, and there will  be a state prosecution. 

At least as of right now, we don`t see a federal one. And it would be a  little bit surprising if they were going on in tandem. But I suppose that  that`s not impossible. 

Michael Cohen`s value here, I think, is as a narrator, as someone who knows  where the bodies are buried. He`s a problematic witness to put on at trial.  That`s not to say that it`s impossible to put him on, but he is known to  have lied on multiple occasions. And it`s difficult, I think, for the  government to offer him as the key witness, unless he is very carefully  corroborated at every step along the way with documentary evidence. 

And that goes to the first part of your question, how hard is this to  prove? And the answer is in the documents. It sounds like what Cy Vance is  doing, is he`s lining up the documents. What did Trump give to Deutsche  Bank when he was trying to get loans? What did he give to his tax  preparers? And what showed up on his tax statements? And do all of those  numbers match up? 

If those numbers don`t match up and if it`s, in fact, true that they  inflated the value of their holdings to get loans and decrease them when it  came to their tax assessments, then they`re in a little bit of trouble. 

The final point I will make is this. The Manhattan DA`s pleading from  earlier this week says that they`re not obligated to reveal everything that  they`re investigating, either to the public or to the president. 

They have shown the judge in camera. That means privately some materials  that suggests the full scope of the investigation. They`re talking about  the insurance fraud here and the bank issues, because they`re part of the  public record. 

But we don`t know what the full scope of this investigation is. There is a  suggestion that it`s quite broad. And the Manhattan DA is pleading  references that they`re looking into corporations or, I should say,  entities and individuals, so, multiple people, and that could be very  interesting. 

REID: Yes. 

And, David, I guess the other question would be, is there any way to link  what Deutsche Bank is alleged to have done in terms of laundering money for  Russia, and Donald Trump, who has lots and lots and lots of money floating  around from -- he, at least according to his son, was getting tons of money  from Russia.

Are those -- are these two separate things that we should think of  separately? 

ENRICH: Not necessarily. 

I mean, the short answer is we don`t know. But what we do know and what we  have reported on at "The Times" and in my book is that there were numerous  instances at Deutsche Bank where the bank served in one way or another as  an intermediary between Trump and various Russians.

We had, in -- around 2016, 2017, we had Deutsche Bank employees raising  concerns internally about what they saw as suspicious transactions  involving both the Trump and Kushner accounts, in some cases, sending money  out of the country, in some cases to Russian individuals. 

And the bank employees viewed those transactions as potentially suspicious,  wanted to report them to federal authorities, and were blocked essentially  by managers up the food chain at Deutsche Bank. 

We also have also reported that Deutsche Bank, in the mid-2000s, played  this role of middleman, introducing Donald Trump to some of its wealthy  Russian clients, who then proceeded to put their money into real estate  developments that Trump was planning in places like Hawaii and Baja  California. 

So there`s certainly a long history of Deutsche Bank doing shady business  for Russians, a long history of Deutsche Bank doing this kind of business  with Trump too. It wouldn`t shock me if we see an intersection. 

But that`s kind of the enigma right now. And we don`t know what exactly Cy  Vance has gotten from Deutsche Bank. Potentially, it could be really  significant, though. 

REID: Yes. Yes. No wonder he wants to stay president. It`s his best defense  against prosecution. 

David Enrich, thank you very much. Joyce Vance, thank you very much. 

And still ahead on THE REIDOUT: Listen to just one of the incredibly  offensive things that Rudy Giuliani had to say about the Black Lives Matter  movement today. 


RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Why aren`t they  classified as a terrorist group? Just because they`re black, and nobody can  say it?


REID: That`s not the worst of it, not by a long shot. 

THE REIDOUT continues after this. 


REID: Rudolph Giuliani, former mayor of New York City from 1994 to 2000, he  tried to stay longer after 9/11, but the city was like, thanks, but no  thanks, and, apparently, expert on race, family, and terrorism.


GIULIANI: It`s a very, very strange society they want to set up.

And, so far, they haven`t said a single word, even when the terrible  violence is taking place by Antifa or by Black Lives Matter, both of whom  are domestic terrorist groups, without any doubt.

Stop the nonsense. These are killers. And these are people who hate white  people. They`re people who hate white men in particular, and they want to  do away with a mother-father family. They don`t think fathers are  necessary.


REID: Huh. Interesting take on the family. 

The thrice-married Rudy, whose first wife was his cousin -- he annulled  that one -- and who publicly announced that he was divorcing his second  wife, Donna Hanover, after having an affair while she and their kids were  right there living in the city-owned Gracie Mansion. Interesting.

The guy who was having the New York Police Department walk the dog of his  mistress and soon-to-be-third wife, Judi Nathan. He has since divorced her  too.

And who, when it comes to police, race and protests, got his first big  political boost presiding over a riot by New York City police, who were  loudly and violently protesting against the apparently Marxist concept of  having a civilian oversight board -- the horrors -- under New York`s first  black mayor, David Dinkins. 

In fact, Rudy was the Trump to Dinkins` Obama, a man who, when he was New  York mayor, presided over one of the most racist and violent periods in  policing in modern New York history. He hailed the police and took their  side 1000 percent, even when they murdered an unarmed immigrant, Amadou  Diallo, shooting him more than 40 times in his own doorway, and an unarmed  innocent man, Patrick Dorismond, whose juvenile record Rudy released as  payback for the protests against his murder. 

And the sodomy attack by police against a black man named Abner Louima,  from which the phrase "Giuliani time" emerged as shorthand for watch out  black, people. Cops can do whatever they want to you now that Rudy`s in  charge.

Rudy was apparently not quite as fond of the fire department, which may be  why they got the bum radios, while police got the best ones, in the years  before the 9/11 attacks. 

Oh, and all that terrorism thing, it was allegedly Rudy who moved the  emergency command center into the World Trade Center, because he didn`t  want to deign to enter blackity Brooklyn, even though he was born in  Brooklyn.


So, Rudy, we will take your thoughts on black people, family values,  police, Trump and all the rest under advisement, as soon as you share with  us why you spent all that time thugging it out in Ukraine scraping for dirt  on Joe Biden. 

We will be right back. 


REID: Earlier this week, we told you about police in Aurora, Colorado,  putting an innocent black woman, Brittany Gilliam, and the young girls in  her car in handcuffs. The police say they mistakenly believed that their  car had been stolen. 

With weapons drawn, the all-white officers ordered Gilliam and the four  girls, including her 6-year-old daughter, to lay face-down on the ground. A  bystander recorded some of it. 

I will warn you, it may be hard to watch.



UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: I want my mother.




REID: Joining me now is Brittany Gilliam, and her attorney, David Lane,  whose law firm is also representing the family of Elijah McClain, the 23- year-old who died in an encounter with the Aurora police last year. 

Thank you both for being here. 

And, Brittany, I`m so sorry that that happened to you, and that you have  had to see that video circulating all around on social media, and  apologizing that you had to watch it again. 

I want to read to you what the Aurora police chief, Vanessa Wilson, had to  say in her apology about the actions and about the actions she says have  been taken as a result of what happened to you. 

Let`s just play that. 


VANESSA WILSON, AURORA, COLORADO, POLICE CHIEF: It shouldn`t have happened.  And we will be -- I have already spoken to the division chief over  training. 

He`s already gotten a hold of the academy staff and talking about how we  train with these different types of scenarios to make sure this doesn`t  happen again. It`s -- it`s uncalled for, and it shouldn`t have happened.  And I wish we could take it back. 


REID: Is that good enough for you? 

BRITTANY GILLIAM, HANDCUFFED BY POLICE: No. No, it`s not good enough for  me.

REID: How -- can I just ask you to walk me through what happened?

You were out for like a fun day with your daughter, who I understand is 6,  and some other young ladies, some kids. And tell us about what happened in  that encounter. 

GILLIAM: At -- Sunday, we was going out into, like, just to have  (INAUDIBLE)

And then when we, like, was just particularly going to go get our nails  done, just have a girls day. And we once we was out, like, you know,  everyone was just in the car. We were just sitting down.

And the particular one that we had went to work was closed. So, by the time  we had got there, like, I had my niece go out to -- outside the vehicle.  And I was like, "Hey, go check and see if it`s closed."

And then she came back in and she was like, no, auntie, it`s closed. So we  started to proceed to look for another one. 

Now, my head is down and I`m looking for other places that can take four to  five people there at the same time. So then we finally found a place. I was  going to pull off, but instead, I just like left the car in park, rolled  the windows down and I just turned the vehicle off. 

And then I said, give me a second, I`m going to pull off in a minute. I was  on my phone. So then I didn`t know where I seen this gentleman on the left  side of me in the vehicle said something like I`m going to record. But I  didn`t know what he was talking about. So then I put my head back in my  phone and my niece started screaming. 

She said, auntie, the police is behind us. I was like what? She was like,  the police is behind us. I said, OK, I don`t know what for. Like, you know,  I don`t know what`s for. 

She was like, no, auntie, they on us. Like you know, the gun is pulled out  on us. So I was just like -- I looked out the window and yelled at the  officer like, hey, why have you got your guns drawn? He didn`t respond. 


GILLIAM: It was like, you know, he told us to proceed with laying our arms  out the windows and stuff like that. So we all started laying our arms out  the window. Then he proceeded told the kids to get out one by one. 

So, you know, my niece was first. My eldest first came out. I was like, no,  you`re not getting out. Like I start reaching for her. You`re not getting  out. He hadn`t told us what we did, what`s going on, like he hadn`t said  anything. So then I was like asked him again, respond. 

I was like this is ridiculous. My niece started screaming. She said it was  another officer that had their down out. Then my niece had proceeded to get  out of the car. I was like, you know what, go. Hurry up and go and do what  they say. Just listen. 

She proceeds and gets out of the vehicle. Then it was my little sister and  then it was my other niece, Teriana (ph). But Teriana (ph) had gotten out  of the vehicle (INAUDIBLE) -- 

REID: Yes.

GILLIAM: (INAUDIBLE) this is ridiculous. Me and Teriana (ph), like our  hands back in the window. He like starts screaming really loud telling us  to put our hands back. It was aggressive. So I said, hurry up, you know  what, forget it. 

Just go ahead and get out of the car because you`re next. So she got out of  the car. Then you know, like my daughter she climbs all the way out of the  back and gets out of the vehicle. After that -- after I hear the other  officer tell them lay on your stomach on the ground. Then they proceeded to  tell me to get out of the vehicle. 

And once I got out of the vehicle -- 


REID: Let me ask you -- 

GILLIAM: Go ahead. 

RIED: Well, I wanted to ask you this question. You know, we saw the video  of your daughter who is six and the other kids who are teenagers or younger  lying on the ground. You hear them crying and screaming. At any point did  any of those officers help the children up, apologize to you, apologize to  the kids, attempt to calm them down? Did they do anything like that at any  point? 

GILLIAM: No. They did not apologize until the two-hour mark hit. They did  not apologize at all. 

How it played out, the kids were on the floor for 12 to 15 minutes. I never  knew that. I only thought they were on the floor for a couple minutes. But  they were on the floor for 12 to 15 minutes because this is what was  reported. So, like, you know, like I say, they were out of the vehicle  before me. 

REID: Let me ask David Lane very quickly while I have you, because your  firm is also representing Elijah McClain`s family, and Elijah McClain was a  23-year-old young man also killed by Aurora police. Have you gotten any  feedback from Aurora police that they understand they need to fundamentally  change the way they operate, period, toward black people? Because pointing  guns at little kids and making them lay on the ground for 12 to 15 minutes  and then not doing anything to try to calm screaming children who you  pointed a gun at doesn`t sound to me like proper police procedure. 

DAVID LANE, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING BRITTANY GILLIAM: I think if there`s any  department I`m aware of in the country that needs to be did he funded,  abolished and rebuilt from the bottom up, it`s the Aurora Police  Department. 

Killmer, Lane & Newman is the firm I am in, and we`ve been doing civil  rights cases for 25 years. And Aurora is a frequent flyer. They just named  Chief Wilson as a brand-new chief of police this week. My attitude is meet  the new boss same as the old boss until she can prove otherwise. 

I say there are good apples in every department. By that I mean most cops  aren`t violent, most cops don`t want to violate the Constitution. 

But most cops are enablers. They allow their violent brothers and sisters  to do whatever they want. And they turn a blind eye, and they don`t write  reports and they don`t turn them in. And that`s the culture in Aurora,  that`s the culture across the country. 

And until these enablers stop being enablers, this will never change, this  culture of violence and this culture of back the blue no matter will never  change. So, I have no reason to believe Aurora is ever going to change. 

REID: Well, I think that is well said. Unfortunately, sad but very true. 

Brittany Gilliam, thank you so much for being here and taking the time to  speak with us. I hope that your family and kids are well and your nieces as  well. And we wish you well.

And, David Lane, thank you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

And THE REIDOUT continues after this. 


REID: You know what`s crazy? 

Trump`s obsession with Abraham Lincoln. 


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Did they do polling when  honest Abe Lincoln was around? I`m assuming they did, OK? So we can say  we`re beating Honest Abe. 

I don`t think I can beat Honest Abe. I`ve never said before I can`t beat  anybody. I don`t think I can act more presidential than Honest Abe. 

I did more for the black community than anybody with the possible exception  of Abraham Lincoln. 

Abraham Lincoln because he did good, although it`s always questionable. 


REID: OK, that`s crazy. But you know what`s crazier? Today is the 55th  anniversary of the voting rights signed into law by Lyndon Baines Johnson,  and Trump is commemorating the day by talking about his, his civil rights  record. 


TRUMP: I`ve done more African Americans than any president, with the  possible exception of Abraham Lincoln, and that`s true. I passed criminal  justice reform. 

I funded the historically black colleges and colleges and universities.  Nobody else did it. I did it. I gave them long-term financing. They never  had it. Half of them were going out of business. They were having a hard  time. 

They came up to see me. I took care of it. Obama never did it. Nobody ever  did it. I did it. Opportunity zones, and the job numbers are the best in  the history of this country for African Americans, Hispanic Americans. 

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS: I know. And that`s real civil rights. That`s real  civil rights.

TRUMP: I`ve done more, I`ve done more than, I`ve done more -- that`s real  civil rights you`re right. That`s real.

RIVERA: That`s why I call you a civil rights activist. I do.


REID: OK. Yeah. Donald J. Trump, Earth 2 civil rights activist, you  literally cannot make this stuff up. 

And that is today`s craziest damn thing in the world!


REID: New York Attorney General Letitia James filed a lawsuit today against  the National Rifle Association, seeking to dissolve the group rights  advocacy group, and accusing top executives of years of illegal self- dealings that funded a lavish lifestyle. The NRA has been an enormous  source of money in politics in the past, contributing more than $54 million  to the federal election in 2016. 

I`m joined now by Charles Booker, Kentucky state representative and founder  of Hood to the Holler, and Jaime Harrison, U.S. Senate candidate and former  chairman of the South Carolina Democratic Party. 

And, Jamie, I`ll go to you first. You`re in this locked in this really  deadlock with Lindsey Graham, 44-44 in the new South Carolina Quinnipiac  poll. And that`s the fourth poll that`s showing you guys in a tight heat.

Will it make a difference for your campaign that the NRA might be out --  might on the sidelines? 

JAMIE HARRISON (D-SC), U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Well, listen, Joy, thank you  for that. Hey, I can`t speak to the specifics of this case, but I can tell  you right now there is a South Carolina case that the NRA and Lindsey  Graham has been holding up, and that is closing the Charleston loophole. I  lost a dear friend (INAUDIBLE) and we lost eight other lives here in South  Carolina. 

And there is legislation that passed the House of Representatives that is  in the Senate sitting on the desk of Lindsey O. Graham, the chairman of the  Senate Judiciary Committee. And he`s bought and paid for by the NRA and he  lost his constituents and he won`t even bring that bill up for discussion  and debate. 

Joy, it`s shameful, but it is what is to be expected. There won`t be a dry  eye here in South Carolina, particularly with the folks that were close to  those who lost their lives in Mother Emmanuel if the NRA goes under. 

REID: Yeah. 

And, you know, Charles, I saw your tweet earlier indicating you recently  lost a family member to gun violence. I want to give you condolences on  that, and ask you the same question. You know, when I talk with the  Parkland kids, of course, I spoke with -- when I speak of the Parkland kids  in Florida, you know, they`re very vehement that the NRA played a part in  the violence that they experience because they just promote, they just --  you know, we`re awash in guns in this country, legally and illegally  obtained. 

So I`m wonder what you think of the fact that they now face a real  financial challenge. 

STATE REP. CHARLES BOOKER (D), KENTUCKY: Well, first of all, Joy, thank you  for having me. I appreciate your thoughts of condolence because this is  very personal to me. I lost a cousin, a younger was this morning that was  murdered. And over the past four years, I have had five cousins murdered.  We are dealing with the problem of gun violence is a public health crisis. 

And over the course of that time, the NRA is weaponizing hate, sewing  division, profiting off the fact that a wedge issue now is keeping people  divided and then self-dealing and padding their pockets. 

And they`re not honoring the Constitution. They`re not protecting gun  owners. They`re not honoring common sense gun safety. And so, yes, they  need to go. The bigger conversation here is, how do we get to the fact that  so many people, like my family, are losing our loved ones dealing with  trauma that is carrying on and breaking our communities? 

We can keep people safe. 

REID: Yeah.

BOOKER: We can honor the Second Amendment and we can do all those things at  the same time. And this is the moment we have to seize and make that  happen. 

REID: No, and one of the reasons I wanted to speak with both of you because  you guys both are men from the South and I feel that the South is really  where the -- kind of the action is in terms of political change right now,  in a lot of ways, you know? 

I will stay with you just for a moment, Charles, because you were out there  very vocally protesting in terms of what happened to Breonna Taylor, in  terms of Black Lives Matter. It is something I will say that the person who  very narrowly defeated you in that Democratic primary, Amy McGrath, did not  do and I wonder what that`s going to do in her general election results. 

But I wonder if you could just comment on, you know, black lives matter  started not with a police killing but with the killing of Trayvon Martin, a  civilian versus civilian. Do you think this issue of gun violence is going  to resonate with young people the way that police violence has in November? 

BOOKER: Well, I know that it is. One thing that I`ve realized is while  we`re saying Breonna Taylor`s name, we`re talking about so much more.  People are focusing in on the structural issues and the fact that so many  of our communities are broken by this public health crisis. 

And we`re asking, how do things become better, how do we actually transform  our future? And that`s why Hood to the Holler is so important. It`s a  testament to saying that all of those people that are standing up,  demanding justice and accountability, we see you. And we know that together  we can redefine politics, we can put a new wave of leaders in place and,  yes, we could have a new Southern strategy. 

We`re going to take that through November and stream roll into our future  because we`re not turning back. 

REID: Well, what do you think is the reason, Jaime, that your campaign is  catching on so strongly? Is this -- is this about, you know, Black Lives  Matter washing into southern states, or is it about something else? What do  you think is making you resonate? 

HARRISON: Well, Joy, we`re painting a vision of a new South -- the new  South that is bold, that is inclusive, that is diverse. A new South where  everybody is respected. 

REID: Yeah.

HARRISON: And, so, folks can join us. Go to and be a part  of this new South that`s closer (INAUDIBLE). 

REID: All right. Thank you so much, Representative Charles Booker, Jaime  Harrison. Really appreciate y`all. 

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

And "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.