Summary
MSNBC`s continuing live coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. "Washington Post" reports that records of President Trump`s phone calls turned over to January 6 investigators have a seven hour and 37 minute gap from just before the insurrection started, until right around the time the police started clearing the Capitol.
Transcript
YEVHENIYA KRAVCHUK, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: But still, if he has this possibility, he will not stop. He will go to another country, another country, pushing and more and more. I`m doing this myself, and I read this propaganda news, and what they say, you know, trying to humiliate the Western world.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Yeah.
KRAVCHUK: -- trying to say that, you know, they`re weak, they can`t backup Ukraine, we`ll invade, and we`ll do whatever we want. Well, that can`t be possible in civilized world in the 21st century, for some person to do whatever he wants.
HAYES: Yevheniya Kravchuk thank you very much for a time tonight, I really appreciate you making time for us.
KRAVCHUK: Thank you for having me.
HAYES: That is "ALL IN" on this Tuesday night.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW with Ali Velshi starts now
Good evening, Ali.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I did chance to talk to Yevheniya Kravchuk in Warsaw, she was on her way to the United States, and it was a remarkable conversation, it was great to see are on your show again. Have a good night, Chris. We`ll see you tomorrow.
HAYES: You too, Ali.
VELSHI: And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Rachel is on hiatus and I`m joining me once again for them the city of Lviv, Ukraine.
Things have been mostly quiet here in western Ukraine, though air raid sirens are irregular occurrence in Lviv. You might even hear them tonight while I`m on air. And Russian rockets did strike the city last weekend.
But, in the east of this country, the Russian invasion has been catastrophic for cities like Mariupol, and Kharkiv. The scale of death and destruction in that part of the country is terrifying, but it`s not new. Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine began eight years ago, it was 2014, days after Ukrainians expelled their corrupt pro-Russian president, that Russian forces took over Crimea, as well as territories in Ukraine`s eastern Donbas region.
Ukraine fought back, and the fighting raged in eastern Ukraine for a year. A cease-fire deal was reached at one point, which Russia only used to regroup, and then when Russia had gained the upper hand, and had thousands of Ukrainian troops surrounded at gunpoint, then Vladimir Putin was ready to come to the negotiating table.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL NEELY, NBC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: It`s a war that killed five and a half thousand people, the worst in Europe in two decades, plunging relationships between the west and Russia to a new low. Today, a glimmer of hope, that Ukraine`s war might be stopped.
Its president visibly weary after 16 hours of talks with the man he met coldly, and blames for the crisis, Russia`s president Putin. They agreed to a cease-fire, and a withdrawal of heavy weapons. At the end, it was Mr. Putin who is smiling.
It`s not the best night of my life, he said, but we have agreed on the main issues. The U.S. and others say, this is just the first step.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: What matters most of all, is actually actions on the ground, rather than just words on a piece of paper.
NEELY: Russian-backed rebels, are accused of launching one final land grab before the cease-fire.
PETRO POROSHENKO, THEN-UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: That`s why it is vitally important for us, but to keep the promises, about the cease-fire.
NEELY: There`s been a cease-fire before, a deal last year that broke down almost immediately. This deal is a new start, when no one knows is whether President Putin is finished in Ukraine, and if this deal will stick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Spoiler alert, president Putin was not finished in Ukraine, and the deal did not stick. With its soldiers held at gunpoint by Russia, Ukraine was forced to make onerous concessions. You saw how happy Putin looked after those negotiations, and then Russia kept claiming that Ukraine wasn`t living up to its owner`s side of the deal.
So, despite that 2015 agreement, the fighting never ended in eastern Ukraine. By the time Russia launched its full invasion of Ukraine last month, more than 14,000 Ukrainians have been killed in the sporadic fighting in the Donbas region, over the last eight years.
So, today, as representatives of Ukraine and Russia met in Istanbul, Turkey, to begin a new round of peace negotiations, over Russia`s latest invasion of Ukraine, you can understand why Ukraine would be a little skeptical. You can understand why Ukraine is insisting a sweet cease-fire, saying they cannot negotiate peace, with a gun to their heads.
And a new video message tonight, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says, quote, the signals weekly here from the negotiating platform, can be called positive. But these signals do not drown out the ruptures of Russian shells. The Russian forces have had to leave -- have to leave the occupied territories. The sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine have to be guaranteed.
Heading into today`s talks, a Russian defense official says, that Russia would sharply reduce its military activity around Ukraine`s capital, Kyiv, and the city of Chernihiv to Kyiv`s north, which is part of Russia`s ostensible strategic shift away from Kyiv, to focus on Ukraine`s east.
This was the response from the U.S. secretary of state, today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: There is what Russia says and there is what Russia does. We are focused on the latter. And what`s Russia`s doing, is the continued brutalization of Ukraine, and its people. I had not seen anything that suggests that this is moving forward in an effective way, because Russia has not seen since a real seriousness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Similarly, the Pentagon spokesperson today says there is no indication on the ground that Russia is undertaking a genuine withdrawal with forces around Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Has there been someone when? By some Russian units away from Kyiv in the last day or so? Yes. We think so. Small numbers.
But we believe this is a repositioning, not a real withdrawal. And that we all should be prepared to watch for a major offensive against other areas if Ukraine. It does not mean that the threat to Kyiv is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: The question in Ukraine right now seems to be whether Russia is genuinely changing strategies, or it is just regrouping in the face of Ukrainian counter offensives, which has proven to be unexpectedly effective.
For instance, Ukrainian forces claim to have retaken the Kyiv suburb of Irpin from the Russians, but Sky News` Alex Crawford reports, so much damage has already been done there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX CRAWFORD, SKY NEWS SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Claiming back to retreat is not the same as it being secure. The soldiers moved into Irpin quarters, despite at the presidents words that they have liberated the town.
Is it free? Have you reclaimed it?
Only so-so, they tell us. This commuter town near the capital has been the focus of intense Russian attacks for more than a month. None of these soldiers were taking anything for granted, despite the first major Russian concessions since the start of the invasion.
So, the area is clearly still not secure. And they are going in to try to find out just how much further the Russian troops have been pushed back. The sounds of war rumble on wealthy peace talks continue. Under Ukrainian martial law, we are not allowed to show this location.
But any scaling back of Russian military operations around the capital come at a tremendous cost, with terrible description done to small towns like Irpin, which has been bombarded for weeks. Those still holding the lines against the capital are very skeptical about any sanction of hostilities.
How many times have we heard about a cease-fire? The first fighter says. It is always just our side which sticks to it, then we get attacked, and we have to reply.
The second man says, the Russians have not stuck to any agreement so far. The first time we set up a humanitarian corridor in Irpin, he tells us, they just attacked the civilian convoy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: But even if Ukrainian counteroffensives are pushing Russian troops back, and even if Russia is actually planning to withdraw from around Kyiv, a big if to be sure, Russia`s assault shows no signs of letting up in the east. As in the town of Mykolaiv, where a rocket tore through the governor`s office, killing several people and leaving a gaping hole in the building.
Earlier tonight, I spoke to Oleksiy Goncharenko, a member of the Ukrainian parliament who recently returned to Mykolaiv after meeting with soldiers there. I begin by asking him about his reaction to today`s attack, and whether he had been in contact with local authorities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Yes. It was an awful attack just on the administration which was not a military target, but an administration responsible for the humanitarian situation. And that was an attack on the head of administration, that is the cabinet. I was in this cabinet just two days ago. And at least eight people are killed, probably more, because now the rescue operation is still in progress. That is just one more awful attack against not military targets, but civilian targets in Ukraine from Russian Federation.
VELSHI: What do you make, Alex, of the fact that the Russians are saying like here in Lviv where they targeted a fuel depot, they said it was a fuel depot where fuel was being used by the military, so they are targeting government installations, and things that are not necessarily housing, or residential areas, although that has happened.
[21:10:05]
Do you think it makes a difference from the perspective of those who are saying that these are war crimes, is targeting a government building, or a fuel depot, a war crime?
GONCHARENKO: For me, it is a clear war crime. Because once again, it is not a military target. But also, after the Russian Federation attacked a maternity houses, hospitals, schools, kindergartens, today also in the Mykolaiv region, the school was attacked and destroyed. Fortunately, there were no pupils there. And they were no closed, there were no casualties. But they attacked the school, and it destroyed it completely.
By the way, you can see that when they want, they can attack a very precisely. You can see that the attack on the building was very precise. It was just in the middle, just in the area where the head of administration. and his assistants are sitting. Had if not military administration once again, but just civilian administration.
So, when Russians are saying that they just wanted to attack another target, but then they hit them with the civilian building, it was because they wanted to hit civilian buildings, because they want to put terror on Ukrainians, and they want to scare Ukrainians. It is the same tactics they used in Syria.
O`DONNELL: Let`s talk about this potential living, or reducing of military activity by the Russians around Kyiv. As we mentioned, they were still bombing cities like Mykolaiv, do you think the Russians are negotiating in good faith? Or do you think something else is going on?
GONCHARENKO: Me personally, I don`t believe them. I don`t believe that this is a real peace negotiation. For me, it is more possible that it is a game, some fake negotiations with the aim to win the time to regroup, to refresh, to take more ammunitions to their troops. It seems to be more likely. But certainly, in any case, even if there is one chance from 100 that it is a real negotiation, we want peace, we want to stop this awful war in our territory, we want to stop the killing of our women and children. So we will try to use any chance possible. But I am not very optimistic about this peace negotiation. It is strange, when they are having a peace negotiation, and at the same time they continue bombing, shelling, and even increasing during the last day`s attacks.
VELSHI: Let`s talk about something that John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesperson said earlier today in the United States. Let`s listen together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: They failed to take Kyiv, which we believe was a key objective. Not only did they not manage to take, you did have not managed to take any population centers, the Ukrainians have been fighting back very hard. So it is hard to see how they are succeeding in any one place, except, except at the death and destruction they are causing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: He is talking a lot about the death and destruction. A number of people have wondered of the last few days whether the tactical failure of the Russian military on the ground, the failure to take places like Kyiv, the failure to make more progress, is now being compensated for by Russia with this death, with this discretion, with the scorch urge policy. Tell me your thoughts on this.
GONCHARENKO: Yes, a scorched earth policy, that is the best term. Yes, I think they want to use this terror just to make Ukraine, to accept their demands. And they want to make Ukraine to surrender.
They are again making a mistake. Like they made a mistake taking Ukraine, thinking that the state will collapse, that people will not fight for their land, and they made a big mistake, as the whole world now sees that Ukrainians are fighting enormously with their whole fury for their land.
The same is with this. Trying to scare our people, they just make them more furious, and that will not work. But what can be done by the world, not just watching all of these awful pictures, but to help us, is to provide Ukraine with air defense, because for all of these attacks, mostly they are using aircrafts, or missiles, which can be intercepted by air defense.
Unfortunately, Ukraine is still waiting, the second month of war is on the place. But we are still waiting for really powerful air defense systems.
[21:15:04]
So, we are not asking for NATO specialists, but we are asking for weapons which will protect our women and children, and will stop this awful refugee crisis. Because more than 3 million Ukrainians have left the country, but more than 6 million Ukrainians are internally displaced people.
So they are in the country, they want to come back to their homes, but they can`t do this, and if these attacks will not be stopped, they will also probably at least part of them, will need to leave the country, and the refugee crisis will worsen.
VELSHI: Alex, thank you for your time tonight. Alex Goncharenko is a member of the Ukrainian parliament.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: So, what is the view from Russia at these peace talks? That is a hard question to answer, because it is difficult to get real information to the Russian people.
Coming up next, we will talk to somebody who is doing just that, and we will be joined by Senator Chris Murphy. There is a major development in the January 6th investigation today. We`ve got details ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:12]
VELSHI: This was the warning that Ukraine`s foreign minister gave negotiators as they head into peace talks with Russian in Istanbul today. Quote: Don`t eat, drink, or touch anything.
Ukrainians are so skeptical that Russia is negotiating in good faith, senior officials genuinely believe there is a chance that their negotiators could be poisoned. As for the level of skepticism from the United States, when asked today if he believes Russia`s claims that they will dramatically scaled back their military operations near Kyiv, President Biden`s answer was, quote, we will see.
How is this all been viewed from Russia? Not just, what is Russian state media saying, but what do Russian people think of these negotiations? Is it even possible to know what they honestly think?
Earlier this month, the last independent TV news station in Russia, Rain TV, aired its last TV broadcast. Many of its staff fled the country, now they are broadcasting Russian news, in the Russian language, but from outside of Russia`s borders, for their own safety.
Earlier, I spoke with Tikhon Dzyadko, the former editor in chief of TV Rain. I asked him if he thought Russia was negotiating in good faith.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIKHON DZYADKO, TV RAIN EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Well, first of all, thanks for having me here.
As for these negotiations, I think it`s so early to give any thoughts because we should wait and see. We heard a lot from Russian officials over the last year, but the reality was completely different. For now, I received messages from my friends, from different Ukrainian cities. We have air sirens, et cetera. So, it means that the war has not slowed down at all, it is continuing.
I just had a talk with a chief of Ukrainian delegation on this, and he was saying as well, that he is super early to think that something is changing. But still, I think that any talks are better than an absence of talks. So I do hope that, maybe, he will change something, but let`s wait and see.
VELSHI: Look, people in Ukraine, they want the war to stop, but they are very frustrated with the idea that any negotiation means giving up anything to Russia, because they feel that this was an entirely unprovoked war. What is the sense, as far as you can tell, on the Russian side? Amongst Russian people, about these negotiations. Initially, this was a special military operation, that was supposed to be concluded very fast. So, how does this go over with the Russian population?
DZYADKO: I think it`s really hard to talk about, to Russian people, because Russian people are different, and part of the society don`t support these special military operations, or don`t support this war, since the beginning. And they understand that with the negotiations, they take place because Russia is not succeeding in Ukraine.
But the part of Russian society which has been supported this special military operation, I think they are confused because they were told that Russia is going to denazify Ukraine and probably take over Kyiv, and now they hear that, probably the Russian army is not going to take Kyiv. So, it`s -- they are confused.
Also, I think that a lot of Russian society, will be told on Russian state TV by Russian propaganda that that was the plan from the beginning. We, people who observe and understand, we understand that the plan was different.
VELSHI: I want to ask you about a bit about that, because we`ve seen polls that show about 60 percent of Russian support the war. The first thing I want to ask you is, does that sound accurate to you? And would Russian support for this war change, if people had access to accurate information. Or would a large percentage of Russians still support this war no matter what?
DZYADKO: I think it`s impossible to talk seriously about polls in Russia because Russia is an authoritarian state, or worse than authoritarian`s state. There is no sociology and authoritarian states, because people are afraid to actually say what they think.
The second problem is propaganda. People just don`t have enough information about what is happening in the world, for example in Ukraine.
[21:25:06]
A lot of people actually do believe that Russia is conducting a special military operation in Ukraine, it`s something small, something very good to clear Ukraine from neo-Nazis, et cetera, et cetera. So, I think the level of support of this operation, of this war in Russia, we just cannot understand it. Even pro-Kremlin`s say that 20 percent of Russians do not support the war, which means, that probably 40 percent of Russians do not support the war, or 45, or 50. We don`t know.
But, what is absolutely obvious is that if Russians have enough access to independent sources of information, the situation would be completely different, and that`s why Kremlin is so aggressive in its actions to kill all the independent media in Russia, and all independent sources in Russia.
VELSHI: Well, let`s talk about the attempt to do that. The last time we spoke with you on this program, TV Rain had just concluded, its final broadcast. You when your wife started a Russian language YouTube channel, you`re broadcasting the news in Russian from outside of Russia.
Tell me about your current situation? Are you able to get information in Russia into the Russian people?
DZYADKO: Yes, we do. Yes, we are able, and I just got back home from our stream, and it has a lot of viewers, and viewers in Russia. We see that people in Russia are still eager to get independent information, about what`s happening in Russia and Ukraine, about Russia, and the world, et cetera, et cetera.
There is a huge lack of independent information. Since our last discussion with you, more independent sources were blocked by the government, more independent journalists were forced to leave the country. On Monday, the last independent newspaper, "Novaya Gazeta", its editor in chief, Dmitry Muratov, who is a Nobel Prize nomine, "Novaya Gazeta" announced that it stopped operating.
So, now, we can say that the fate of Russian history of independent information is over. But still, there is a lot of people who are eager to get that information, there`s a lot of ways to get that information, YouTube is not blocked yet, Telegram is not blocked yet. A lot of services like VPNs they let people get through these digital iron curtains, to get independent information, such as with my wife on the YouTube channel.
So I think it`s still possible to get in independent information from Russia, or to give independent information for Russia.
VELSHI: Well, let`s hope the people seek it out.
Tikhon, thank you for joining us. Tikhon Dzyadko it is the editor and chief of TV Rain. We appreciate you joining us again, and please continue to stay safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: And we have been hearing, by the way, reports that we`ve not been able to confirm about some loud explosions in Kyiv, right now. We are going to keep an eye on that.
But back in the United States, the Connecticut Democratic Senator Chris Murphy reacted to the peace talks, and to Russia`s announcement of a military pullback from Kyiv, this way. He said, quote, not coincidental that this announcement comes a day after the Ukrainians` new offensive likely achieved its biggest victory, the recapture of the key Kyiv suburb of Irpin. The Russians were potentially on the verge of a series of routes, end quote.
Joining me now is Senator Murphy. He`s a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.
Senator, thanks for making time to be with us tonight.
I do want to ask about the things that may or may not be going on at these negotiations in Istanbul between the Russians and the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians are proposing some sort of a mechanism, or a plan your commitment, that would allow them their territorial sovereignty, and give them some sort of mechanism, that maybe doesn`t get them into NATO, because Vladimir Putin is so violently opposed to the idea that Ukraine is associated with NATO.
What do you make of a suggestion like that?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Ali, I think we`re having some technical difficulties here, unfortunately. I`m unable to hear you.
[21:30:04]
VELSHI: Okay, Senator Murphy is not able to hear us at this moment. We are going to fix that up in a second. Senator Chris Murphy is a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.
As I mentioned a moment ago, we have not got confirmation on this, but we are seeing reports from other reporters, and other agencies in Kyiv, that say there are some loud explosions tonight with, the context of that is that there has been discussions in Istanbul about pulling back, about the Russians pulling back from Kyiv in favor of just sort of taking eastern Ukraine, that they are looking for.
I think we might have Senator Murphy back.
Senator, are you back with us?
MURPHY: I got you know.
VELSHI: Excellent, you`re a TV pro, because even you knew we were having technical difficulties, when you can hear me.
When asked about the proposal that some of the Ukrainians have made, and that is that if they can`t join NATO, can there be a mechanism set up by which their territorial integrity is protected, and that others will come to their defense if Russia tries this nonsense again? What do you think about the likelihood of a suggestion like that working?
MURPHY: Well, that is the essence of NATO, right? NATO is a mutual defense treaty, in which we pledge, to those who are part of that alliance, that all the members will come to their defense if they are attacked. So it sounds as if Ukraine is asking to have the rights the NATO members enjoy, while not being a member of NATO. That`s, obviously something the United States and our allies can discuss.
But, that`s a fairly serious commitment to make, to have the United States guarantee the protection of Ukraine, outside of the confines of NATO. Obviously, everyone wants to talk about ways to bring this war to a close. And, I think many of us will be willing to look at any asked that Zelenskyy makes a bus.
VELSHI: You know, a number of people I`m speaking to on the ground here are saying, regular Ukrainian citizens, some of them are refugees from other parts, internally displaced people have left their homes in eastern Ukraine, or even Kyiv, and come here to Lviv, they`re all saying why should Ukraine make any concessions whatsoever? They don`t even think they should be called a war. Because, they didn`t feel that they were party to it. They didn`t want it, and they`re concerned that in the negotiations, just like with Crimea and the Donbas, they`re going to end up giving something up for no reason.
MURPHY: Well, I think the United States should be careful to dictate the terms of a peace agreement, to President Zelenskyy. President Zelenskyy has been incredible in his leadership throughout the first four weeks of this war, and he will make a decision on behalf of his country, along with -- on whether the terms on the table are acceptable or unacceptable.
It`s certainly a hard pill to swallow, the idea that as Russia is retreating from Kyiv, that Ukraine would grant them territorial control over one inch of Ukrainian land.
But, there are clearly things that can be on the table, the neutrality of Ukraine can be on the table, devolved power for eastern regions can be on the table. And I think the United States is willing to put some things on the table as well. We`ve never had the intent of putting missiles inside of Ukraine, that would threaten Russia, and we can make some commitments to give Russia confidence that that is not in the cards, after this war ends.
So it`s up to Zelenskyy and his team, as to what`s the terms will be, we should echo those to him. But our commitment is, if you are not ready to sign an agreement, if the terms are too difficult or too onerous, and you continue to fight? The United States is going to stick with you.
VELSHI: You have met with him four or five times. What is your sense of how he has been performing, Zelenskyy?
MURPHY: I mean, he has blown me away. I probably sat with Zelenskyy for more time than anyone else in the senate. I would lie to you if I would told you I wasn`t a bit surprised at how he has been able to rally, not just all of Ukraine, but the entire world.
Listen, Zelenskyy knows how to use the media. There is nothing more important in the early days of a war then using mass media in order to win the propaganda battle. And it is pretty stunning that Russia, a country that prided itself on being able to win the information wars, is in a position that they are getting their have handed to them every single day, both militarily on the ground inside Ukraine, but also when it comes to the messaging, Putin is in a corner, not just because he has been on the receiving end of an incredibly impressive military performance from the Ukrainians, but also because he simply does not have any friends who are willing to come to his aid.
[21:35:23]
I don`t think he counted on losing both the military bottle, and the propaganda battle.
VELSHI: Senator, thank you as always for your time tonight. I am sorry for the technical issues. But it is always good to talk to you.
Democratic senator and member of the Foreign Relations Committee, Chris Murphy, we appreciate you joining us tonight.
We`re going to take a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:40:23]
VELSHI: On November 8th, 1973, the top story leading the news was the high stakes diplomatic peace talks happening between two nations at war. Israel and Egypt were meeting for initial negotiations to try to end the Yom Kippur War. It was a huge deal. The war had claimed thousands of lives by that point. The peace talks led the news that night ahead of another historic domestic crisis that was playing out before the American public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The Watergate special prosecutors today finally found the significant discrepancy. The discrepancy strongly suggested that someone interrupted the automatic White House recording system in the hours immediately before, or after important conversations between the president and John Dean. The Watergate special prosecutors described the inconsistency between the White House logs, and the automatic recording equipment as unexplained, and substantial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: The Watergate missing tapes, 18 and a half minutes of conversation between the president and his advisers that mysteriously went missing during the Watergate investigation. President Nixon would eventually blame the missing tapes on his secretary, Rosemary Woods.
Nixon secretary played along, and even try to physically demonstrate how she might have deleted the recordings to an incredulous Trump pressed, who dumped her explanation, the Rosemary stretch. Those missing 18 and a half minutes would become infamous, and then during part of the Watergate cover- up for years to come.
Now, today, as Russia and Ukraine engage in peace talks, none other than Watergate reporter Bob Woodward and his reporting partner Bob Costa broke a new story about missing Trump White House records. Here is the headline from "The Washington Post", quote, January 6 White House logs given to House shows seven hour gap in Trump calls. "Washington Post" reports that records of Trump`s phone calls turned over to January six investigators have a seven hour and 37 minute gap from just before the insurrection started, until right around the time the police started clearing the capital.
The records that do exist show Trump called at least eight people in the first two and a half hours of his morning, and another 11 people in the evening on January 6th. But from roughly 11:00 a.m., to nearly 7:00 p.m., as the Capitol was being attacked, nothing.
"The Washington Post" reports that the January 6th investigation, quote, is now investigating whether Trump communicated that day through back channels, phones, or of aids, or personal disposable phones known as burner phones, end quote. The committee is also scrutinizing whether it received the full logs from that day with one lawmaker on the panel saying the committee is investigating a possible cover-up of the official White House record.
Joining us now, Dan Goldman, former assistant United States attorney, former majority counsel during Donald Trump`s first impeachment trial.
Dan, good to see you tonight. How big a deal is this? This nearly eight- hour gap in the White House call records on the day of the attack? Do they indicated likely cover up, and is there a way for the investigators to actually figure out what happened in that time, and get those records?
DAN GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it certainly indicates something nefarious. Because either the Trump administration concealed the logs, erased them, or did not include them when they turned over presidential records to the National Archives, which is where the January 6 Committee called the logs from, or it means that he was trying to avoid a record of the phone calls that he was making during the insurrection. So there is no real good, possible explanation for him.
We do know that he made phone calls during that time. We know that he called Senator Tommy Tuberville but used to call Senator Mike Lee`s phone. We you know that he spoke to Kevin McCarthy after the rioters bombarded the Capitol. So we know that there were phone calls.
And the way that the January 6 Committee can try to sort of reverse engineer would have occurred that day is through other witnesses, and other phone records. They can analyze those phone records that they have gotten, some of which are subject to litigation right now, but others I am sure that they have, and try to determine who those other people were talking to, and whether they were speaking with Donald Trump.
[21:45:01]
They can also match that up with testimony from other witnesses who might have said that they spoke to Trump on that day.
So, there are ways of figuring it out, but it is certainly an alarming, and a very conspicuous absence of information.
VELSHI: So, in response to today`s report, Donald Trump claimed that he did not even know what a burner phone was. Now, the former Trump official John Bolton has already rebutted that today saying that the president spoke about burner phones apparently all the time. Can the committee subpoena something like burner phone records? Do things like that exist?
GOLDMAN: No. That is the whole point of a burner phone. They are often used by drug dealers, and mobsters, to evade detection. They are bought in -- their prepaid phones essentially, that do not require you to give truthful identification information. You can go into any store and just by a prepaid phone for 30 days, or a certain number of minutes, and you don`t have to give any information.
So that is why criminals used them. They are really not traceable. And you cannot figure out who is talking on them unless you get someone on the other end of the phone who says, oh yes, this number that I called was Joe Schmoe, and that is how you can figure it out. Burner phones are widely used by criminal enterprises, so that a record of phone calls does not exist.
VELSHI: Dan Goldman, you and I have had some weird conversations over the years, but talking about the president using a burner phone definitely is somewhere close to the top of the list. Good to see you, my friend. Dan Goldman is a former United States attorney, and former majority counsel in the inquiry against Donald Trump.
All right. Coming up next, a view from inside Ukraine were even in the relatively safe areas, the threat of attack is palpable, every minute of the day.
Stay with us.
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[21:51:06]
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VELSHI (voice-over): Here in Lviv, life feels ordinary throughout much of the day. This cosmopolitan city had been mostly spared from Russian attacks until Saturday, when missiles came raining down in two straight separate strikes. No one was killed, but the feeling of security has been shattered for many Ukrainians, including those who fled from the east, who sought refuge in Lviv, which is just an hour from the Polish border.
There are signs of war here, but life goes on until the evening curfew. This group of young people fled Kyiv, after airstrikes hit that city.
You decided to come here to escape that, now is happening here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, in this moment, we`re like where can we go for a safe place, and there is no safe place in Ukraine.
VELSHI: When you hear the alarm, the sirens, if there`s a siren right now, would you keep drinking your coffee needing your cake?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
VELSHI: You get up, and leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go hide somewhere.
VELSHI: Then, just moments after we left them, but we got as a typical day right here in the middle of Lviv, the air raid sirens have just begun, they`ve just gone on. There are usually two sets, the starting set where they announced please take shelter, there is an air raid, there will be another set in half an hour, or whenever they determined that there isn`t a strike, and that will be the return to your activities.
There`s an app that everybody carries with them that goes red when there is an air raid like this. This siren indicates that there is an actual error rate. You see people start to disperse. They start to head to places in shelters.
A lot of these stories around where we are right, now in this cafe district, have a shelter in them. They are not real bunkers that are designed for an attack, but there are in a basement. What you also see a lot of people who do nothing, they don`t change your behavior at all. They`re going to stay, there going to be walking around the streets, and basically until last weekend, that`s how it went. Because, when there was an air raid siren, it comes with a very large area, it doesn`t necessarily mean there is a missile or something heading in this direction.
But you can, see their people grabbing each other`s hands, moving a little quickly, going into the shelters, returning home, and things like that. There are a lot of people who are staying outside right now, hoping it will pass in a few minutes. This is still a city that is thought of, by the people here as safe. Many of them are not from here, they come from pit laces like Kyiv, or places further east where there has been actual shellings.
So they feel that this is actually relatively safe space to be, despite the air raid sirens.
But not everyone feel safe, once the sirens began blaring, we discovered this family had scrambled for cover in this concrete shelter. They`re refugees from the besieged northeastern Ukraine town of Sumy, near the Russian border.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a very terrible situation, it was very scary, so we had to leave our home and our early region.
VELSHI: Standing in this shelter with their kids, it felt like a war was following them.
A few minutes ago, we heard the arid sirens, is how you came under here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, of course. You save our lives, and our children. Now we plan to stay here, we hope that the situation may be changed. I don`t want to leave and go to -- far from the city.
VELSHI: In just one afternoon, the sights and sounds of the city can be surreal, but some Ukrainians here are determined to not let a war change their routine, even if it`s just sitting outside on a spring day with coffee, and some cake.
[21:55:17]
Your life is not going to change, your coffee --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re with me. You`re with me.
VELSHI: You`re teaching me about what this means.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will die together maybe.
VELSHI: Let`s live together, let`s live together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: A snapshot of life here in Lviv, in the second month of Russia`s invasion, life goes on while it still can. We`ll be right back.
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VELSHI: That does it for us tonight here in Lviv. We will see you again tomorrow. It is time now for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL."
Good to see you, my friend.