Show: THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW Date: October 25, 2016 Guest: Tim Kaine
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR: That`s "ALL IN" for this evening. Make sure to stick around because it`s veep night on MSNBC. Both vice presidential candidates will be here. Coming up, Rachel Maddow has an exclusive interview with Tim Kaine and Mike Pence will be joining Brian Williams at 11:00 Eastern.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: Thank you, Chris. Indeed, that is true. It`s almost a little weird, but thank you for the preview.
It is, in fact, vice president day here on MSNBC. Vice president or would- be vice president day.
Chris Matthews this afternoon had an interview with our current vice president of the United States, Joe Biden. Joe Biden is now into a third day of explaining what he meant when he said he wishes he was in high school and he could take Donald Trump out behind the gym because he wants to get in a fight with him, basically. Donald Trump today responded that he, too, would kind of like to go get in a fight with Joe Biden, although he described his hypothetical fight with Joe Biden as happening somewhere in a barn rather than in a gym. So, OK. That`s happening.
In addition, though, to that exclusive interview with the sitting vice president of the United States, I`m talking with Chris Matthews here tonight on MSNBC, we would have also have the would-be next vice president of the United States, Mike Pence. He`s going to be doing an interview tonight with Brian Williams on the eleventh hour.
And I`ll be doing an interview with the man who would be the next Democratic vice president of the United States, Tim Kaine. It`s veep night here on MSNBC.
When we were setting up for this interview today, I said to Senator Kaine that from what I can tell from his public schedule, I kind of looked like today was maybe a down day for him, a day off. He`s not doing any big rallies or any other public appearances that were listed on his schedule. So, I asked him if he was maybe doing a fund-raiser today since he wasn`t doing any other public events, and he looked right at me and said, yes, try five of them.
And I thought he was joking, but no, he was not being hyperbolic. A day off the campaign trail right now for Tim Kaine means that he actually did five fund-raisers today. I think he`s still doing them right now. That`s what counts as a day off the campaign trail at this point in the Clinton campaign national effort.
Hillary Clinton herself is doing fund-raisers tonight in South Florida. And even though, we`re now only two weeks from the election, it`s interesting. The fund-raiser pace is not letting up. "The Washington Post" reports tonight that between now and November 3rd, the Clinton campaign has 41 more fund-raisers scheduled.
Hello, 41 more fund-raisers between now and November 3rd. November 3rd isn`t that far away. You might think that they would be starting to ease up, right? In terms of Clinton/Kaine, I mean, they`ve already outraised Trump 2-1. Right now, "The New York Times" projection as to who is likely to win the presidential election puts Hillary Clinton at a 93 percent chance of winning the presidential election. I mean, you might think just in terms of the fund-raising pace, they could afford to ease up a little bit, right?
And they might have done that if the fund-raiser were just for them, but it`s not just for them. See, the Clinton campaign is not just running Clinton for president and Kaine for vice president. They`re also the lead fundraising effort for all Democratic candidates, and every level of the Democratic Party from coast to coast.
So, they don`t just want to win the White House. They want Democrats to win governorships and state legislative seats they want Democrats to win control of Congress or to get as close as they can. They obviously want Democrats to get control of the Senate. And so, for the Clinton/Kaine campaign, it is pedal to the metal through -- from now until the end, right? Forty-one more fund-raisers from now until November 3rd. Tim Kaine had five fundraisers today alone. He squeezed me in between them.
That`s on the Democratic side. On the Republican side, it`s nothing like that at all. Mateo gold at "The Washington Post" reports tonight that the comparable fund-raiser effort on the Republican side is already over. In fact, it ended last Wednesday. "The Washington Post" reports tonight that Donald Trump did his last big dollar joint fund-raiser for his campaign in the Republican National Committee last Wednesday and he`s not going to do any more. There are no further events planned.
According to the head of the Trump Victory Fund, quote, "We have kind of wound down. From here on out, quote, "There is virtually nothing planned."
It`s hard for me to overstate how strange that is two weeks ahead of the election. I mean, the Republican nominee is on track to lose the presidential election. Largely because of the magnitude of his expected loss, Republicans are also on track to lose control of the United States Senate. Election forecasts right now for the Senate project a 2-1 chance that Democrats are going to take control of that body.
But the reaction of the Republican nominee, the reaction of the whole Republican presidential campaign is basically to sign off two weeks out. I mean, here`s Tim Kaine doing five fund-raisers today. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump stopped doing fund-raisers for the Republican Party last Wednesday. He`s effectively saying to the party, hey, guys, I`m losing my part of this race, you guys look like you`re losing your part of it, too. You`re on your own. Lots of luck.
It`s just -- this is a remarkable. This is a remarkable tactical decision. This is a decision or did they just peter out? I mean, the Trump campaign at this point is like a stage actor who shows up for the curtain call. Just shows up for the applause and wants to be told he did a good job, but he didn`t actually participate in the performance let alone do all the preparation work that goes into doing a good job at that performance.
I mean, what`s that campaign now? Their candidate is going to places where he gets applause, he definitely still does rallies and stuff. He appears to enjoy that. But what are the rallies for at this point?
Remarkable piece of reporting from the top political reporter at "The Arizona Republic" tonight, who is describing what`s going on in the key state of Arizona. He says the Clinton/Kaine campaign, they`ve got 32 fully operational political offices in Arizona. They got 161 staffers working full time to win Arizona for Clinton and for the Democrats.
What`s that competing with on the Republican side? Donald Trump doing rallies. But what are those rallies for other than to give the Republican nominee the experience of people applauding for him. I mean, according to David Nowicki, this excellent political reporter at "The Arizona Republic," the Trump campaign has been circulating at these rallies, sign up sheets to volunteer for the Trump campaign.
But after those rallies, the campaign hasn`t always even bothered to collect the sheets. They apparently just leave them there, nobody picks them up, let alone does anything with them.
Next door in Nevada, which is also supposed to be a swing state although, it`s trending increasingly blue. I want you to watch this. This is just a remarkable exchange between the great Chris Jansing from NBC and the Republican Party chairman in the second largest county in Nevada, right? Clark County includes Las Vegas, that`s the most populated county in the state of Nevada. Washoe County has Reno. That`s the second most populated part of the state, after last Vegas.
This guy is the county chairman from that part of Nevada. Again, Nevada`s supposed to be a swing state? His county is supposed to be a swing county. Swing counties and swing states are supposed to be, you know, desperately fought over at this point.
But watch this from the Republican chairman of that county. This is just incredible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tension I`m talking about interviews with the campaign, yard signs, bumper stickers hats.
CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS: Yard signs and bumper stickers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
JANSING: So, you called the Trump campaign or the RNC --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t remember. You want to the number -- 606-(AUDIO DELETED)
JANSING: And you say, can you have yard signs?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say, I am the chairman of a swing county in a swing state. You guys need to talk to me. I need 2,000 yard signs, I need 10,000 bumper stickers, and I don`t even get a call back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: That`s a swing county in a swing state. Republican Party chairman there saying two weeks out from the election, he had the phone number memorized. We bleeped it there so you don`t all call it.
But he`s got the phone number memorized. He calls the Trump campaign every day begging for yard signs and bumper stickers and didn`t even get a callback.
What are they doing that`s more important than trying to compete in swing counties in swing states with county chairman who wants specific help? I mean, what`s the Trump campaign could be doing if they`re not doing that? What is the Trump campaign at this point? Is it just a traveling road show for Donald Trump himself to appear at events in front of crowds who like him because that makes him feel good?
I mean, whatever the Trump campaign is now and whatever they`re planning on doing for these last two weeks, it is unusual. "The Washington Post" again reporting tonight that Trump campaign has effectively cut off the Republican Party and stopped even trying to help other down-ballot Republicans save themselves.
And, Politico.com is the first to report tonight that the Republican Party in response is hitting the panic button. The panic button is apparently labeled "dark money" and they punched it big time tonight. According to Politico.com this evening, Mitch McConnell`s Senate super PAC in conjunction with George W. Bush`s campaign guru, Karl Rove -- remember him -- Mitch McConnell and Karl Rove have somehow instantly conjured out of the dark money wilderness a whopping pile of $25 million, which they just announced tonight. They`re going to start shoveling into six contested Senate races, in order to try to save Republican control of the Senate.
They`re announcing that tonight. That means presumably the fastest they can start spending that money is tomorrow. That means they`ve got $25 million to spend on Senate races over 13 days, if they also spend on Election Day itself. That is a phenomenal last-minute money dump. And who knows where that money came from?
And incredibly, while they`ve decided to do that through the Mitch McConnell super PAC, the nominee decided he`s going to coast to the finish. No more Republican Party fund-raisers, no more helping nobody, where can I go to get somebody to tell me that they love me?
He remains at the top of the ticket, though. And even if he does try to put himself on a glide path to disappearance over these next two weeks, he continues to be the Republican Party`s problem and he continues to be the presidential nominee of a major political party. And as such he continues to be subject to scrutiny, subject to the kind of full body MRI, the kind of full body background check that the national media does on everybody who runs for president.
And we have something new to report tonight. The ongoing reporting on Donald Trump`s background tonight has turned up something new and something dramatic and something very, very, very inflammatory that we have got here exclusively, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: OK, this is an exclusive story that you have not heard anywhere else, but it begins the first time that Donald Trump`s name ever made it into "The New York Times." It was in 1973. He and his father were named in a racial discrimination lawsuit brought by the federal Department of Justice against their real estate firm.
That lawsuit by the Department of Justice claims that the Trump management company systematically refused to rent to black people. African-American New Yorkers would apply for an advertised vacancy in a Trump building and then they would just never hear anything back from their application or they be told that the vacancy was listed in error and actually that unit wasn`t really available.
One crucial part of the investigation in that case was an equally qualified white New Yorkers would show up at the Trump company and they would inquire about those same apartments, magically, the suit alleged the apartment would be back on the market and available for the white applicant even though the black applicant had just been told that that apartment was gone. That DOJ lawsuit against the Trump company was ultimately settled when the Trump company signed on a consent decree in which they promised that they would desegregate their properties, start renting to black people.
That suit was one of a number of allegations and legal cases against the Trump Corporation for racial discrimination, over the course of this presidential campaign, it has become a hot point of contention. Hillary Clinton raised it in first presidential debate. Trump responded to her bringing it up by saying that the consent agreement reflected no admission of wrongdoing. And then after he used that as a rebuttal, newspapers and news outlets have looked into those allegations to the way that suit was settled to the other suits that were brought against Trump real estate properties.
Today alone, "The Las Vegas Sun" published an account from a woman who now lives in Nevada who says she was one of the white people who was sent in as a tester at Trump properties after a black applicant would allegedly be told that an apartment was not available, she`d show up as a white applicant with basically the same qualifications and she`d be offered the apartment. That story today in "The Las Vegas Sun". The woman recounting her own experience in being involved in those lawsuits.
"Mother Jones" also had another story tonight on additional discrimination lawsuits brought against the Trump Organization not in the 1970s, but in the 1980s. I can now tell you that NBC News has also been working on a report on the way the Trump Company allegedly discriminated against black people in rental housing.
And in the course of the NBC investigation, they`ve turned up what we have exclusively tonight, a troubling eyewitness account from a man who worked as a rental agent at a Trump property. He says it was basically his job to do the discriminating. He says he was instructed directly to slow-walk or outright reject potential tenants if they were black because they were black.
But listen to this. Listen to what he told NBC News when he was asked exactly how that instruction came to him and who was in the room while it happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NBC NEWS PRODUCER: Just take me back into that room. So you were sitting in the room and he was there. Describe the scene to me.
STANLEY LEIBOWITZ, FIRED TRUMP`S RENTAL AGENT: A black lady completed an application for an apartment in the building, a one-bedroom apartment, as I recall. And it was a very professionally read application, it was checked and verified, there were no liens, no judgments against her. And she was calling me on a daily basis wanting to know the status of her application.
One day, Mr. Trump and his son Donald came into the office, and I asked Fred Trump what I should do with this application because she`s calling me constantly. And his response to me was, you know, I don`t rent to the N- word. Put the application in the desk and forget about it.
NBC NEWS PRODUCR: So, Fred Trump used the N-word and told you we don`t rent to people like that.
LEIBOWITZ: That is correct, yes.
NBC NEWS PRODUCER: And what was your response at that time?
LEIBOWITZ: I was employed by them. I did what he said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: So, this is -- this is the raw tape of an NBC producer in that diner right, noisy diner, interviewing this rental agent who worked at a Trump property and in the course of explaining basically how he says racial discrimination worked at the Trump Organization back in the day when they were deciding who to rent to, he just mentions and recounting how this worked, that young Donald Trump was standing there alongside his father when he says, the father instructed this rental agent not to rent to anybody who was black and he says, when Donald Trump`s father explained that his policy was not to rent to anybody who was black, what he actually used was the N-word to explain that policy while Donald Trump stood right next to him.
Obviously, given that Donald Trump is now running for president, that`s a very inflammatory allegation. The producer goes back to the rental agent again to clarify that this is exactly what he`s talking about. Do we mean you to say that Donald Trump, the man running for president, was there when that happened, in fact, when that language was used?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEIBOWITZ: He said put it in the drawer, forget about it. You know I do not rent to the N-word people. And that`s what I did.
NBC NEWS PRODUCER: And Donald Trump was right there?
LEIBOWITZ: Donald Trump was right alongside his father when I was instructed to do that, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: OK. So, this is obviously a very explosive allegation about Donald Trump and his time working with his father at the Trump Organization in the 1960s when he would have been a very young man, also in the 1970s. Just to be 100 percent, 1,000 percent totally clear, though, the producer goes back to the rental agent, asked him again, are you sure that Donald Trump was there, that he witnessed his father explain this was discriminatory policy, that he would not rent to black people, that he used the N-word to explain that? Are you sure?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NBC NEWS PRODUCER: When his father told you not to rent apartments to people of color, what was Donald`s response?
LEIBOWITZ: And he shook his head, that`s the way it`s supposed to be, agreeing with his father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Again, this is exclusive content. This has never been broadcast before. This is material obtained by NBC News just over the course of reporting this story within the last few weeks.
What this rental agent says is a very specific, very explosive allegation against Donald Trump personally, in terms of what he allegedly witnessed and went along with and signaled his ascent to as a very young man working in his father`s organization.
Now, the Trump campaign has responded to that specific allegation tonight. They gave us this response on the record. I`m going to give it to you in total, quote, "That is total nonsense." That`s their formal response from the campaign to these allegations.
But I want to show you also -- so you understand where that reporting came from, here is how NBC News is contextualizing this allegation. Here`s how they`re folding it into their overall story about discrimination by the Trump Organization at the very start of Donald Trump`s real estate career.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CYNTHIA MCFADDEN, NBC NEWS INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It was 1963 in New York City and Maxine Brown was looking for a place to live in Queens. She applied for an apartment owned by Donald Trump`s father Fred.
MAXINE BROWN: They asked what kind of job I had and they were surprised that I was a nurse.
MCFADDEN: But Maxine says she wasn`t welcome.
BROWN: I was turned away because of my color.
MCFADDEN: Well, at the time, Donald was only 17, he was already involved in the company. Stanley Leibowitz was the agent who took Maxine`s application.
LEIBOWITZ: Fred Trump came into my office with his son Donald at his side. I asked him what should I do with the application of Ms. Brown. He told me take the application and put it in the desk drawer as he does not rent to people of color utilizing the N-word and Donald Trump shook his head agreeing with his father.
MCFADDEN: By 1967, state investigators reportedly found that out of some 3,700 apartments in Trump village, only seven were occupied by African- American families. By 1973, Donald Trump was the president of Trump Management.
Annette Gandford (ph) was a teacher looking for a place to live. She went to a different Trump building also in Queens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was black. I don`t think it looked good in their estimation to have black people living in their facility.
MCFADDEN: She says there is no doubt in her mind that Donald Trump continued the practices of his father. The Department of Justice alleged that some employee was instructed to mark rental applications from African- Americans with the letter "C" for colored.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The (INAUDIBLE) said that there were no apartments, that was not true.
MCFADDEN: She said she wouldn`t have spoken up had Donald Trump not brushed off the company`s bad behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s important that history not be erased.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald started his career back in 1973 being sued by the Justice Department for racial discrimination.
MCFADDEN: Annette was part of that lawsuit.
TRUMP: We, along with many, many other companies throughout the country, there`s a federal lawsuit, were sued. We settled the suit with zero, with no admission of guilt. It was very easy to do.
MCFADDEN: Court records show it actually wasn`t so easy to do. Three years after the settlement, the Department of Justice went back to court saying Trump was not complying with the settlement agreement.
Four years after that, the Trump Organization was again taken to court and the class action lawsuit alleging a pattern of discrimination. Some 20 years after Maxine Brown was turned away.
The Trump organization and several other landlords settled the class action in 1984.
Sheila Morse (ph) was one of the white testers sent in to a Trump building a day after a black applicant was told no apartments were available.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I got there, oh, the superintendent greeted me with open arms. Oh, yes, come, I`ll show you the apartment.
MCFADDEN: Morse was offered a two-bedroom apartment. Annette Ford has kept all the documentation from her complaint all those years ago, although she says she hasn`t looked at it in years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It feels like the time has come to tell the story. When Donald Trump says that, you know, they did not admit guilt, that may be true, but the fact that there was guilt had to come out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: Reporting by NBC News investigative reporter Cynthia McFadden.
Now, the Trump campaign has made a formal response to NBC News on this story. Hope Hicks says, quote, "There`s absolutely no merit to the allegations." The suit was brought as a part of a nationwide inquiry against a number of companies and the matter was ultimately settled without any finding of liability and without any admission of wrongdoing whatsoever.
That statement, of course, mirrors what Donald Trump said in the first presidential debate when Hillary Clinton brought up the same history. I should tell you, it`s not true that this lawsuit was brought against a ton of companies nationwide. The first one in particular was specific to the Trump Organization, but they`re sticking with that response anyway.
Now, in response to the very specific allegation by Stanley Leibowitz, that rental agent who worked with the Trump Organization at the time and who says explosively that Donald Trump stood alongside his father and nodded approvingly when his father used the N-word to explain who they do not rent to, the campaign tells us that that is, quote, "nonsense". They`re not offering a substantive rebuttal against the allegation. They`re just giving us that response. Nonsense.
We`re 14 days out. Vice presidential candidate Tim Kaine is here tonight for the interview. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: So, when I sat down with Tim Kaine today I think I asked him a question he`s never been asked before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: You have been a missionary in Honduras. You have been a civil rights attorney. You have been a city counselor, a mayor, a lieutenant governor, a governor, a senator, have you ever had a female boss?
SEN. TIM KAINE (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That`s a great question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: My interview with Tim Kaine is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: Last week, Democratic vice presidential candidate Tim Kaine was chatting with reporters. They were talking about the upcoming debate, which was last Wednesday. And he was saying how well he thought Hillary Clinton was going to do in that debate, kind of normal stuff, what you would expect.
Then, he unexpectedly turned into Mr. Mysterioso. The cryptic spy versus spy version of Tim Kaine. What did this mean?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: I don`t think there`s any doubt about is she going to be up on the substance. She is up on the substance. But the demeanor is what matters and I think she`ll do very, very well.
REPORTER: Senator, have you spoken with her about the debate?
KAINE: Yes, we have chatted about it. I say chat generally because I`m trying not to reveal all the means by which we communicate. But, yes, we`ve done it a couple of times. And I think she`s very excited about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: I`m trying not to reveal all the means by which we communicate? What does that mean?
Tonight, he explains. And it turns out it`s exactly as spy versus spy Mr. Mysterioso as you might thing it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: Joining us for the interview, I`m very pleased to say, is the Democratic nominee for vice president, Virginia Senator Tim Kaine.
Senator Kaine, thank you so much for being here. We`ve never met in person.
KAINE: Yes, I`ve been on with you on remote, but I`m so glad to be on set.
MADDOW: The last time you were with me on remote, you were saying there was absolutely no chance that you would be chosen for vice president.
KAINE: You know --
MADDOW: You`ve seen this all before --
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: Yes.
KAINE: I had been through it eight years before and I kind of never thought it would be me. I had the same intuition this time but, you know, not all intuition is correct. I`m thrilled to be on the ticket with Hillary.
MADDOW: You have been a missionary in Honduras. You have been a civil rights attorney. You have been a city counselor, a mayor, a lieutenant governor, a governor, a senator, have you ever had a female boss?
KAINE: That`s a great question. When I was a practicing lawyer, I had cases where the main lawyer was a woman. So, that`s the case, but that`s probably it.
I served with two mayors when I was on city council, they were both men. When I was lieutenant governor, my governor was a man. When I was DNC chair, I essentially reported to the president. This would be the first time I had a female boss. I hadn`t thought of it that way.
MADDOW: I wonder if it gives you any -- if it gives you any means of reflecting on not just the historic nature of potential first woman president but some people`s shpilkes about that, whether or not we`re even able to articulate it, whether or not people are able to voice it as a criticism, that it might -- it`s an unusual thing.
KAINE: Oh, it is. But I love it. You know, I`m a civil rights lawyer. So, I love breaking barriers down and doing new things. Our nation does it best when we`re doing that.
I`ll tell you something else, Rachel, when Hillary asked me to serve as her running mate, I just thought of all the strong women who helped me be the - - I`ve won eight elections. And I`ve had women campaign managers and campaign secretaries and donors and volunteers and voters and I`ve been able to be the one with my name on the bumper sticker ballot and yard sign.
When she asked me, I thought, you know, payback and help. Payback is great. I mean, I get to now play a supportive role. That`s what the vice president`s main job is to a woman who`s going to make history, to the president who will preside over the celebration of the centennial of women getting the right to vote. The next president is going to preside over that.
So, I really relishing the idea and I think as much as you normalize by a woman president, a woman can be anything, my job will maybe normalize and yes, strong men should support strong women in whatever capacity.
MADDOW: In terms of your relationship with Hillary Clinton, obviously you knew her before she asked you to be on the ticket.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: What`s your relationship right now? You made this sort of cryptic comment the other day where you said, I`m not going to comment on the exact means by which we communicate. I was thinking, OK --
KAINE: Yes. Well --
MADDOW: You know --
KAINE: We`re training some carrier pigeons so they can`t be hacked.
MADDOW: Do you have to think about that, in terms of the way that you communicate every day? You do?
KAINE: We do. And we campaign together, some, although most of what we`re doing is, you know, spreading the zone, I`m here, you`re this, we cover more ground, but we do communicate a lot and by different means. And we knew each other, but we didn`t know each other as really good friends. I mean, I didn`t have that kind of relationship with her.
In the last two weeks before I was named to the ticket, I think they thought, yes, this guy might be the right guy, but maybe we should get to know each other. So, Bill and Hillary and Anne and I spent a bunch of time together, just to try to get one another. But it`s been great.
I mean, I -- we`re both Midwesterners, we grew up in Republican small business families. Our churches were both really part of who we were. I kind of feel like I kind of get the milieu from which she came and it`s really similar to mine.
MADDOW: You mentioned Bill Clinton and you mentioned strong men supporting strong women.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: Have you given any thought, have you part of any planning in terms of what it`s going to be like to have a former president in the White House -- I mean, there`s -- Barack Obama is staying in D.C. when he`s no longer president.
KAINE: Right.
MADDOW: Bill Clinton will presumably be in D.C. as the president`s spouse if you and Hillary Clinton win. And then there`s Hillary Clinton who will be the president. I mean, what sort of thinking, what sort of planning is going into dealing with --
KAINE: Well, Hillary and I both really superstitious. So, we talk about this a little bit. We had a really good conversation about it Saturday. But we`re not assuming we`re winning.
So, there`s a transition team just as the rest on the other side thinking about some of these. We just started and actually if you look at it, Hillary will make history, President Clinton will make history as the first man, first spouse, but also as a president as first spouse. I`ll make the least history of the four. But to be a vice president to a woman president and with Bill Clinton in the White House and my wife -- is my wife second lady if there`s no first lady?
I mean, so there`s no complete playbook for this?
MADDOW: Yes.
KAINE: But that`s cool, too. There`s traditions that you honor. But it`s also something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue. You`ve got to make your own traditions. And I think the ability to create the model a little bit is exciting.
MADDOW: In terms of the division of labor and career interests in your own family, I know you described yourself as a feminist.
KAINE: Absolutely.
MADDOW: You talk about these things in feminist terms but your wife was secretary of education in Virginia when you were named to the ticket she gave up that job.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: She`s supporting you full-time. Presumably if you`re elected, she will move into whatever we`ll call that job. How hard was that for you to navigate? Do you have any regret about that?
KAINE: I do. It`s funny, though. If you had Anne here, she would answer it differently. I feel like my wife has sacrificed a ton for me. So, again, thinking strong women supporting me to do this, she was a juvenile court judge and really loving her job when I got elected governor.
She could have continued in that role. She wasn`t required to step down. But she decided there are things I can`t do on the bench that I think I can do as first lady.
And that turned into -- she helped reform the Virginia foster care system. She couldn`t done that on the bench. I view that as a sacrifice her giving up that job. She said it`s not sacrifice, it`s an opportunity for me to take my judicial experience and now do a big legal reform.
And I think she feels the same way. As secretary of education, she has been a real passionate advocate for the profession of teaching. And that has been a central focus of hers. The head of the Department of Education has to be responsive to teachers and a million other constituencies, but that`s an umpire`s job.
But I think Anne looks at, I can go out and advocate for teachers, school boards, and PTAs. We have a child on the military. I can carry on the good work that Jill Biden and Michelle Obama has done around military families.
So, I felt sad for her when she said, I think I need to step down, but she said, I just want to make sure that Hillary Clinton`s president, I don`t want to be worried about if I have enough vacation days to go on the trail for her, I want to just go out and campaign for her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: Senator Tim Kaine today talking with me about what it`s like to work for and with Hillary Clinton and what it means for him as a feminist and a politician to be in that role. He said strong men can support strong women.
Also clarifying that he and Hillary Clinton do communicate by secret means in order to keep their conversations safe from prying eyes and hostile hackers. I don`t think he meant it in terms of carrier pigeons, but that is what he said.
Also saying when he was with Secretary Clinton this past Saturday, one of the things the two of them had a good conversation about was, what`s going to happen with bill in the White House? What is going to happen with bill in the White House?
More ahead with vice presidential contender Tim Kaine.
Stay with us.
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MADDOW: It`s not theoretical. He`s saying stop spending in these red states. Start spending down ticket. Do you feel it?
KAINE: I do.
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MADDOW: Today, "The Washington Post" officially declared that it considers the state of Utah to now be a toss-up in the presidential election this year, which is hilarious.
Democrats have lost the state of Utah by over 40-point margins in three of the last four elections. The best Republican showing there in -- sorry, the best Democratic showing there in 20 years was still Democrats losing by over 20 points in Utah.
I mean, if Utah is now a toss-up, if a Democrat might win Utah this year, then the one thing I can tell you is that the Democrat will not need to win Utah this year. I mean, it would be an astonishing statement to win it, right? But is it a good idea to spend resources to make that statement. If things are going well that you`re also going to win Utah, it`s not going to be close.
Should Democrats not spend on a state like and instead, you know, just spend what and where they need to to definitely get to 270, but then dump everything else they`ve got into trying to win other races, in the Senate, in Congress, the states? It`s not a theoretical question anymore as it turns out and it also turns out it`s not an easy one for the campaign to answer. And that is next with Democratic vice presidential candidate Tim Kaine.
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MADDOW: A little discord in Blueville. Earlier this week, "The New York Times" reported that some members of the Congressional Black Caucus want the Clinton/Kaine campaign to stop trying to win the presidential race in deep red states because even though those states might be winnable in terms of Trump versus Clinton, I`m looking at you, Utah, quote, "down-ballot races are not as comfortable as the presidential race." That`s from G.K. Butterfield, who`s the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Jim Clyburn also tells "The Times" this week, quote, "She, meaning Clinton, she may be in a good place but I don`t think the party is in a good place yet."
I asked Senator Tim Kaine about that tonight. Watch.
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MADDOW: Let me ask you about some of the political decisions, the hard political decisions that you and the Democrats are making right now.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: It`s been -- as a spectator sport it has been fascinating to watch you go to Utah, right? You`ve got this op-ed in the "Deseret News" right now. You`ve got full time campaign staffers in Utah right now. We`ve got polls tightening in Texas, people are talking about potential, there`s a small ad buy that you just did in Texas.
And it is -- again, as a spectator -- fascinating to see you guys playing on that side of the ideological number line in our country. At the same time, though, it feels like there`s a real opportunity cost right now in terms of money, these last two weeks, I`m sure it would be hilarious if you guys won Utah. Wouldn`t it be better to spend that money trying to elect a few more members of the House from Indiana or anywhere else in the country where you can build up your majority in Congress?
KAINE: Yes, this is the four-dimensional chess that we`re playing. It`s all based on analytics. And you`re right, do you go for some extra electoral votes or do you take that money and try to build a bigger margin in a state where you could get a senator --
MADDOW: Yes.
KAINE: -- or some House members.
These are very, very hard calls. I mean, generally, my feeling, you know, having been DNC chair, too, and kind of watched the way races work, in a presidential year, almost the best thing, almost always, to increase your success in congressional races is just to do really well in the presidential election.
MADDOW: Sometimes true, like `96, right? That wasn`t necessarily true. Republicans held on very well in Congress even though when Bill Clinton beat Bob Dole very badly.
KAINE: Beat him badly.
MADDOW: Yes.
KAINE: So, they`re counterexamples. But usually, the uptick in a presidential year can really drive your success in the down ticket. And so, it`s worth doing as well as you can on the up ticket. But there are some states. You know, North Carolina is an interesting state where the up ticket is not only helping the down ticket, but the down ticket is helping the up ticket because there`s such a move among progressives in North Carolina that the governor has painted the state against its progressive traditions. And we`ve got to sweep them and we`ve got to win the Senate and win the governor`s race.
So, in each state, we`re kind of assessing what can we do, can we win, and the tide goes to if we can win and get colleagues elected too, then that will be one of the factors that goes in the priority --
MADDOW: What do you make though? The Congressional Black Caucus, Congressman Butterfield from North Carolina.
KAINE: G.K. is a great friend, great congressman.
MADDOW: And a shrewd tactician.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: He`s being very outspoken about this, saying essentially you guys, yes, we know you have to balance things but you`re making the wrong call here. You`re not doing enough for down ticket Democrats at the expense to trying to run up the score meaninglessly in the Electoral College.
I mean, does that critique coming right now, it`s not theoretical.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: He`s saying stop spending in the red states, start spending down ticket. Do you hear that? Do you feel it?
KAINE: I do. And I was with him. We had a really good rally at North Carolina central last, I guess it was probably Thursday. We did a good rally together, and he made that point to me, and I assured him, look, you know, we`re looking where opportunities are.
I mean, an example is a state of Georgia. I mean, Georgia`s a state, significant minority population. Polls are close.
If we could get over in Georgia, this would create something really positive long term that would be great for the entire party, great for the black caucus, great for Democratic future, you know, because it`s one of the ten largest states, and there`s only two, and the ten largest that go the other way, Texas and Georgia, we could get that back in. It would be great.
And we are not forsaking North Carolina. I mean, I have been there so often, and President Obama and Michelle Obama and Hillary and President Clinton were all there a lot.
But, you know, when he makes the case you got to listen, because he is very, very good at this. And so, all of this, we`re factoring in. So, you know, I haven`t -- I wrote an op-ed for the "Deseret News", but I haven`t been to Utah yet. I did a campaign event in Arizona, did a couple in Texas, but I`m really in the Pennsylvania and North Carolina, Ohio, Florid and then a few others, you know, in the last couple of --
MADDOW: So, you guys feel like you`re effectively straddling that.
KAINE: I think, you were never going to be perfect and we are making choices that are -- you make them on the fly with the best that you have. But I like we`re -- we`re very mindful of wanting a Congress that won`t say, you know, our goal is to make Hillary unsuccessful. We want a Congress that we can work with to get some of the things done.
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MADDOW: Tim Kaine tonight on the hard choices Democrats are making now. He says they`re basically trying to max out the presidential win in as many states as possible while also doing the max for Democratic congressional races and Senate races and all the other down ticket races in the states that Democrats have such hopes for this year. Not easy decisions, not an easy line to straddle. But the cacophony and the discord around the way they make those decisions, that intra-Democratic argument over those decisions is going to get louder and louder over the next 13 days. Just watch.
More ahead. Stay with us.
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MADDOW: Every election feels like the most divisive election ever, now, it`s a slippery slope to the bottom.
KAINE: We`re telling the truth. It is.
MADDOW: This is the most divisive one.
There are a lot of good people in this country who are dyed in the wool, true-blue Republicans.
KAINE: Yes.
MADDOW: Whether or not they`re going to vote for Donald Trump. I don`t know what`s going to happen to the Republican Party after this experience with Trump as their nominee, but does there need to be a grand gesture from you and President Clinton if you two are elected in November? Does there have to be some sort of overture, some sort of welcoming place in the administration for Republicans?
KAINE: I would hope so. I would hope so, or in policy. Look --
MADDOW: More than just a token cabinet officer?
KAINE: Yes, I would hope so, and look, I think there`s going to have to be a grand gesture on the behalf of the GOP to say GOP does not equal Trump. They`re going to have a burden on their shoulder. GOP does not equal Trump.
And if we govern, of course, we have to govern for everybody. So, there has to be an effort to reach out and Hillary are kind of talking about that, again, not presumptuously. You know, we`ve got to win first, but what does that look like?
One thing that will help us a little bit, give us a little bit of a head start as I think we`re going to get a lot of Republican votes. John Warner, who is the iconic political figure in Virginia, 30-year Republican senator, gave a full-throated endorsement of Hillary. He didn`t even mention Donald Trump`s name until the last sentence. He talked about what a great senator Hillary Clinton was, and -- because he was on the committee with her.
And I think we`re going to have a lot of people on the coalition that got her elected. This is my sense right now. And so, that already begins a little bit of the outreach. But, yes, you have the burden to govern -- you have the burden to govern for everybody, even if you don`t agree with everybody. Still, you`ve got to keep everybody`s needs in mind.
MADDOW: No Donald Trump on the cabinet, though.
KAINE: I think that`s highly unlikely.
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MADDOW: Virginia Senator Tim Kaine, Democratic nominee for vice president, thank you for the time. I know you`re incredibly busy. Thank you.
KAINE: No, I`m really happy we could do this.
MADDOW: Thanks.
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MADDOW: Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine, that`s his first interview with me since he`s been Hillary Clinton`s running mate.
Today at 11:00 Eastern, Republican vice presidential pick, Mike Pence, is going to be sitting down with Brian Williams. It`s vice president day.
We`ve also got more from Senator Kaine on the issue of the Supreme Court and also on the fight against ISIS. We will hold that for tomorrow.
But stay with us tonight. We`ve got laugh-out-loud news we must share with you from Ohio. And that`s next.
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MADDOW: In spite all the good news for Democrats in the polls right now, there are some not-so-good signs for Democrats, too. Like for example, Ohio, there was initial enthusiasm but early voting overall is down in Ohio. That`s bad for Democrats because low turnout favors Republicans.
Early voting is also down specifically in the Ohio counties where Democrats traditionally need to run up the score. Compared to this time last year, for example, early voting in Cleveland`s Cuyahoga County is down by more than half. Hillary Clinton cannot afford that kind of turn that kind of turnout in that part of state, not if she is going to win Ohio.
But the Democrats apparently have a plan for jump starting Ohio. Clinton campaign now announced a free get-out-the-vote concert by Jay-Z in Cleveland next week. Free concert. The campaign has given the tickets.
You can pick up your free Jay-Z tickets on Friday between the hours of 8:00 and 6:00, at this convenient location, directly across the street from the Cuyahoga County boards of elections, where it just so happens, early voting is happening on Friday from 8:00 to 6:00 while they`re giving away those tickets.
I don`t know how Ohio is going to pan out in the end, but that counts as trying. Really, really trying.
That does it for us tonight. We`re going to see again tomorrow.
Now, it`s time for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL".
Good evening, Lawrence.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END