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The Rachel Maddow Show, Transcript 11/17/15

Guests: Valerie Gauriat, Seth Moulton, Bruno Stagno Ugarte

RICHARD ENGEL, MSNBC GUEST HOST: Thank you very much. Thanks, Chris. It is wonderful to be here. Thank you all at home for joining us. I`m Richard Engel reporting from Paris. Rachel has the night off. She`ll be back tomorrow. It is now just after 3:00 a.m. here in Paris. And details continue to emerge at this hour about the attackers who rampaged through the city five days ago, who they were, where they were hiding out, even how many may still be on the run tonight. So, that is one part of the story we`ll be addressing, the ongoing investigation who carried out this attack and how, but also, the worldwide retaliation against ISIS. Tonight, Russia has stepped up its assault on the group intensifying its military air campaign against targets in Syria, specifically targeting the group`s de facto capital, the city of Raqqa. Russian President Vladimir Putin delivered what he called punishments to ISIS today after Russian officials confirmed what others have been saying now for weeks. That a bomb did in fact bring down a Russian commercial airliner over Egypt`s Sinai Peninsula late last month. We know it was a small bomb, just two pounds and homemade, but nonetheless deadly. We`ll have much more on that part of the story tonight about whether the attack in Egypt and the one here in Paris will finally lead to a coordinated effort against ISIS. But first, to the attack here in Paris. It was just five days ago when suicide bombers detonated their vests outside a football stadium in the city. Tonight, another football stadium more than 200 miles away in England -- 80,000 fans took part in a remarkable show of defiance at tonight`s friendly match between France and England before kickoff. Before kickoff, English fans formed a giant tricolor mosaic in the stands in tribute to the people of France, and then both teams and 80,000 people inside joined together to sing the French national anthem. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYS) ENGEL: And what makes this scene so remarkable and all the more defiant is that those tens of thousands of people crowded into that stadium soon after learning of another threat playing out at a German football stadium. Thousands of fans were forced to evacuate a game in Hannover, Germany, after authorities were informed of a concrete threat to bomb the game. A game that German Chancellor Angela Merkel was expected to attend. So far at least, police have found no evidence of a planned attack. Back here in Paris, the stadium attack in this city is getting much more attention tonight as French police have learned and issued an international appeal to help identify one of the suicide bombers who blew himself up outside the Stade de France on Friday. It is now believed that the Syrian passport recovered by the attacker`s body was either fake or stolen and so the true identity of that attacker remains a mystery tonight. Additionally, French authorities are trying to learn more about another man on the hunt for a second fugitive still believed to be on the loose tonight. Just in at last few hours, we`ve gotten more details how that attacker may be involved. The "Associated Press" has reportedly obtained surveillance video of one of the shootings at a Paris cafe on Friday night. According to the "A.P.", it shows a team of three attackers at the site, two black clad gunmen firing automatic weapons at the bar and then returning to a car where a waiting driver was inside. Previously, French officials did not specify how many people were involved in this particular attack. But evidence is leading French officials to believe that there is an additional assailant still on the loose tonight. We`re also learning more about the attacker`s whereabouts in the hours before they launched their attack on Paris. It`s believed that they used a pair of hotel rooms just outside of Paris. In one of the hotel rooms, there were oddly discarded syringes and plastic tubing. It`s still unclear at this point why the attackers left them there, what they were used for. Empty pizza boxes were also scattered throughout the room. There is some new information tonight about why this group may have chosen the Bataclan music hall as a site for Friday`s massacre. It was believed that ISIS pick this had concert hall you deliberately. It was not just because as American band was playing inside that night. The Bataclan was until very recently Jewish owned. It had been threatened with violence many times in the past for hosting Jewish cultural events. Back in 2009, before ISIS even existed, a group of men filmed themselves threatening the owners of the club. "You`ll pay the consequences", one of the men is heard saying. "Next time, we won`t just be here to talk." Tonight, authorities remain on the hunt for one fugitive they have named already, a young man Salah Abdeslam. Belgian authorities who have charged the man say he could be traveling with Abdeslam. The two men say they picked Abdeslam up in Paris on Saturday and dropped him off in Brussels. Those men deny any involvement in the attack. The Belgian media is reporting tonight that they were being investigated as possible suppliers of bombs used in the attacks since ammonium nitrate was discovered in the search of their residence. Whether their role (ph), tonight, the search for that man is now a second fugitive continues across this region. Joining us now from Brussels, Belgium, is NBC`s Claudio Lavanga. (CROSSTALK) ENGEL: So, Claudio, what`s the latest on the search? Go ahead, Claudio. What is the latest on the certainly for the suspects? CLAUDIO LAVANGA, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Sorry. There`s a bit of an audio delay. The police and intelligence officers around Europe are looking for Salah Abdeslam as you mentioned. They have to start here if they want to get answers. Here in Brussels because this is where Salah Abdeslam was born, was raised and he was radicalized as many of the other terrorists involved in this particular attack and many other attacks in the past. Well, now, this is where President Hollande said yesterday that the planned attack was organized. This is where they found the weapons to carry out the attack. This is where the investigators believe that the vests, explosive vests as you said were fabricated and then given to the terrorists to bringing into France to carry out that particular attack. Well, what we know as you said is that these twos accomplices may have taken Salah back to Belgium at some stage on Saturday, perhaps. Well, we don`t know. Of course, they lost traces of him. They don`t whether he`s still in Brussels or elsewhere in Europe. But certainly what we know is that the family of Salah is still here -- the mother, father and Mohamed one of his brothers. Now, he was arrested, one of the seven people that was arrested since Friday here in Belgian. He was later released. The police believe he`s got nothing to do with the attacks and the brother appeared on French television today, calling out, making an appeal to his brother Salah. He said turn yourself in. Go to the police. Well, of course, that hasn`t happened yet. And, of course, he is still on the run and the police are looking for him everywhere, Richard. ENGEL: NBC News reporter Claudio Lavanga, thank you very much. Let`s bring in Valerie Gauriat, an international affairs reporter for Euronews, which is based in France. So, there`s been some talk about this investigation. Police now think they`re looking for two active suspects, two people who were directly involved. What more do we know what -- we`ve heard about the first person they issued this APB for the other day. Who is the second person? VALERIE GAURIAT, EURONEWS REPORTER: Well, it`s not yet known who is the second person. But it`s -- the police have confirmed the allegations by witnesses who saw the third man in the car in which Salah was riding on Friday night and the car used for the attacks. ENGEL: The second person was in the car? GAURIAT: He was in the car. ENGEL: They saw video and in the video them see a second person sitting in the driver`s seat? GAURIAT: The witnesses saw the three people and, yes, it has been confirmed there were three people. ENGEL: So, they want to know who that person is in the car. GAURIAT: And they`re trying to look for DNA traces to try and identify that person. They still haven`t confirmed who he was. ENGEL: You`ve lived in Paris most of your life in, France. You work here. What is this attack doing to this society? How are French people reacting? We`ve heard about defiance. But in your own opinion, how is the country holding up? GAURIAT: Obviously, obviously, it is a great shock. There was the first very big shock in January but this is unprecedented. This is an attack according to most people I`ve spoken to which is aimed at not only targeted aims, but it`s targeted at France as a whole. It`s values, its society, its way of life. This comes as a real shock to the whole of society. ENGEL: Somebody described it to me like this, that after "Charlie Hebdo," the attack a year ago, people knew "Charlie Hebdo" could be attacked. It was so provocative. It had been threatened before. This time, a theater was attacked maybe because it was Jewish owned. But it was still a theater and it was an attack on the French people. GAURIAT: It was. It was a theater. It was cafes. It was young people. And this also is a big shock to the -- to the society. It`s an attack on their future. It`s an attack on their innocence or their ideals. And this is probably one of the most shocking things to the French people. ENGEL: In small towns, small villages, are people behaving differently? Are they more nervous or is this something that France in a few days is going to move on from? GAURIAT: It might take a little more than a few days. The shock is very big. The fear might not be so strong in the small towns and the villages, but you can feel it here. Although, yes, people have said we have to stand strong. We have to be united. We must not yield to fear. But you can feel it. Today, for instance, this morning, there was a record traffic jam in and around Paris as people were commuting to work because they were afraid to take -- to use public transport. And they`re saying you know, I don`t want my children to go around to travel on buses and trains too much. People are cab selling trips to other parts of the country. People from other parts of the country are postponing plans to come to Paris. ENGEL: You mentioned people want France to be strong right now. And the government is responding militarily. We`re going to talk more about that later. I know you don`t know what he exactly all the French people think. But in your estimation, are people behind those strikes? Do they think it`s an appropriate response, a good response? GAURIAT: They want a strong response and they are reassured by this stand been taken by the government. On the other hand, they do worry about what the impact could be to their values which are always linked to freedom, to liberty. They`re a bit wary about turning into a securitarian society, a securitarian state. ENGEL: A state of emergency in place right now. GAURIAT: It is. So, it is reassuring to them but on the other hand -- ENGEL: They don`t want to go too far. GUARIAT: -- they want to go too far, and to see Europe go too far, as well. ENGEL: Thank you for coming in the middle of the night here and sharing all of this with us. We really appreciate it. That is Valerie Gauriat. Can you tell me how you pronounce? GAURIAT: Gauriat. ENGEL: Gauriat, excuse me, from Euronews. Thank you for being with us. GAURIAT: You`re welcome. ENGEL: Our live coverage from Paris continues in just a minute as France and the U.S. get a new military ally, not just France, not just the U.S. anymore, in the fight against ISIS. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: Welcome back. We will have much more of our continuing coverage from here in Paris tonight. But first, a major political development back in the United States. Late tonight, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal officially suspended his campaign for president. Governor Jindal is now the third Republican candidate to drop out of the presidential race, following Governor Scott Walker and Rick Perry. Bobby Jindal put out a statement tonight saying he is not at the time, quote, "This is not his time." He declined to endorse any of the other Republicans in that race, saying that he will support whoever the Republican nominee ends up being. This announcement comes on the heels of his decision yesterday to issue an executive order blocking Syrian refugees from coming to Louisiana, citing the attacks here in Paris. We`ll have much more on the situation now facing those Syrian refugees coming up. Stay tuned. Much more ahead tonight from Paris. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: One of the biggest developments in the war on ISIS did not come here in Paris today, but rather in Russia. Nearly three weeks after a Russian jet crashed over Sinai`s -- Egypt Sinai peninsula killing all 224 people on board. Today, Russia announced it now knows unequivocally what caused the plane to go down. The chief of Russia`s domestic security agency announced today that shortly after the plane left the popular tourist destination, Sharm el-Sheikh, a two-pound homemade bomb onboard exploded causing the plane to disintegrate in mid-air. ISIS has already claimed responsibility for the attack and today, President Vladimir Putin went on TV and announced that Russia would retaliate in response to what the Kremlin calls a terrorist attack. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We should not apply any time limits. We should know them all by name. We will search for them everywhere wherever they are hiding. We will find them in any spot on the planet and punish them. (END VIDEO CLIP) ENGEL: Russia began that punishment against ISIS today by bombing its stronghold in Syria, the city of Raqqa. The Kremlin also announced today that Russia has agreed to coordinate with France on strikes in Syria. France announced today that President Francois Hollande is going to Moscow next Thursday but first, he will go to Washington to meet with President Obama. The White House announced today that the two leaders will consult and coordinate efforts to help France`s investigation of the attacks here in Paris last week and discuss further cooperation in the fight against ISIS. President Hollande today called on Russia and the United States to unify their efforts against ISIS. France also sought additional support from its European partners today. For the first time in its history, all 28 member states of the European Union agreed to invoke the E.U.`s mutual defense clause, that means the other countries must step up their security assistance to France. But when it comes to the task of fighting ISIS, the Syrian city of Raqqa is now in the crosshairs of three different air forces, the Russians who stepped up their attacks today, the French who sent in ten aircraft to strike training and command center in Raqqa today, and the U.S. which has been bombing Raqqa for months now. Just last Thursday, it was a U.S. and British drone striking that killed ISIS executioner nicknamed Jihadi John there. President Obama yesterday reiterated the U.S. plan for coalition airstrikes while developing reliable, quote, "allies on the ground." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On the military front, we are continuing to accelerate what we do as we find additional partners on the ground that are effective, we work with them more closely. I`ve already authorized additional special forces on the ground who are going to be able to improve that coordination. (END VIDEO CLIP) ENGEL: President Obama talked about finding new partners on the ground in Syria as the U.S., France and Russia step up airstrikes in Syria. But is it all effective and will it be enough to stop ISIS? Joining us now is retired U.S. army colonel and Medal of Honor recipient, Colonel Jack Jacobs. Colonel Jack, one again, it`s always a pleasure to talk to you. COL. JACK JACOBS (RET), MEDAL OF HONOR RECIPIENT: Ditto. ENGEL: So, do you think Russia is now bombing Raqqa? Do you think it`s going to make any difference? JACOBS: They are bombing and it`s not going to make any difference. I mean, we were talking in glowing terms about the fact that the French were putting in 20 air strikes. I`ve been in fire fights in which I`ve put in 20 airstrikes. At the end of the day, as you know, air power, artillery is only good to the extent that it supports troops on ground to seize and hold terrain. If you just bomb `em at the end of the day, they`re going to come back or somebody will come back. You`ve got to be able to control the area. That takes a lot of troops and unfortunately it also takes a lot of time. I don`t see anybody who is very much interested in putting in both the time and the troops in order to take advantage of the airstrikes that are going in, Richard. ENGEL: So Russia now says it will coordinate with France. France says it will reach out to Washington. And they all want to coordinate with each other in theory. Is it going to happen? JACOBS: Well, I think operationally, they`re going to be able to coordinate. I think one of the things -- the good things that`s going to come out of this is the sharing of intelligence information. We`ve got very good overhead intelligence capability. We`ve got satellites, aircraft drones and all the rest of that stuff. What we don`t have is intelligence from the ground, human intelligence. I think among the three of us, we`re going to be able to put together a good intelligence picture develop good targets and act on them. But those are tactics. Strategy is something else all together. It`s one thing to go ahead and bomb the bad guys but at the end of the day, you really have to be able to control the terrain. And don`t forget, ISIS is a terrain-based organization. They want to establish the caliphate and that means that they hold ground. If we want to destroy them, we are going to have to hold the ground. The coalition has to hold the ground. I don`t see them doing that. ENGEL: But this is a pretty big coalition. Let`s keep realistic terms. Raqqa is the size of Des Moines, Iowa. It is not a giant place. Now, if Russia and France and the United States are all bombing them, isn`t that going to at least do something to slow down this group or do you really need reliable boots on the ground to go and hoist the flag? JACOBS: I think both are true. It`s going to slow them down, But at the end of the day, you`re not going to have -- you`re not going to get to the end, the objective is to control that area and not let ISIS control the area. And that`s going to take people. The people who are really interested in what`s going on are actually not participating on the ground. (CROSSTALK) ENGEL: Here`s a tough -- here`s a tough question for you. I see exactly where you`re going. Here`s the toughest question. Everyone says it`s just a matter of time before there`s some sort of horrendous ISIS attack in the United States. So, what should we be doing now to prevent that from happening? JACOBS: Well, I mean, we`ve got to have great surveillance supervision, oversight inside the United States. We`ve got to -- I mean, that`s going to help. It`s not going to prevent anything but it`s going to make it less likely. We have to really share intelligence with our allies. That means Russia. We`ve got to share intelligence with Russia. Russia has got to share it with us and Iran has to share their intelligence with us. That`s going to be a tougher thing to do but that`s what it`s going to take to prevent or certainly forestall any attacks on the homeland of the United States. ENGEL: Well, and maybe these atrocities, maybe they will lead to more cooperation. Colonel Jack, army colonel, Medal of Honor recipient, as always, thank you very much. JACOBS: Oh, thank you. ENGEL: Joining us now is Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, a member of the armed services committee and former Marine Corps officer who served four tours in Iraq. Congressman, thank you very much for your time here tonight. REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA), SERVED FOUR TOURS IN IRAQ: I it`s good to be here. ENGEL: So, you`ve spent some time, four tours in Iraq. You were talking again about an organization, ISIS that started out by fighting mostly marines in Iraq. Do marines need to go back and fight this group again? No one seems to have the stomach for that. MOULTON: Well, look, no one wants to put troops back into the Middle East, but I`ve been clear for some time that ISIS is a national security threat to the United States and we need to have a serious long-term and comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS. And just like the colonel said, this is not just about the tactics, not about just killing the troops on the ground, the ISIS fighters, although that is important -- dropping bombs and training opposition fighters. We have to have a long-term political solution to occupy these political vacuums into which ISIS has grown. Until we have that piece of the puzzle, then our efforts on the ground today are only short term and they`re not going to solve the problem and they won`t ultimately defeat ISIS. ENGEL: So the same question I asked Colonel Jacobs. People say that an attack in the United States by ISIS is a matter of time. Let`s hope that never happens. But what should the U.S. be doing right now to prevent that so that we don`t just look back in retrospect and say, ah, this administration, these intelligence failures -- what should we be doing now? MOULTON: Of course, we have to make sure that our homeland security is responding to the changes and circumstances and recognizing the threat that ISIS poses. I think there are a lot of American who thought we could sort of ignore what`s going on in the Middle East and in Syria. Nobody wants to get into another ground war in the Middle East and maybe we could let them sort it out themselves. But I don`t think that`s right for our national security. I think we have to have a political plan in the Middle East that whatever troops we send in or whatever bombs we drop, support -- we`ve got to have support for that political plan. Back here at home, I think that we`ve got to have responsible measures to ensure our security, but that doesn`t mean going too far. It doesn`t mean, for example, refusing to accept Syrian refugees who go through the tightest vetting process of any traveler to the United States today. And shutting the door on the very people whom ISIS is trying to target is playing right into the enemy`s hands. It`s un-American, it`s immoral and it`s not going to lead to the defeat of is. ENGEL: We`re going to talk a lot more just in the next block coming up about the refugee crisis. I have a guest standing next to me off screen to talk about that. But last question. If in fact, the French president is going to Washington to try and convince the administration to coordinate with Russia and to bury the hatchet with Moscow and to join in the fight against ISIS together, would you support that? MOULTON: Well, I certainly support diplomatic efforts, because that`s really what`s been missing from this. We don`t have a clear political plan. Russia is clear about their political plan. They want Assad to remain in power. Now, I don`t agree with that political outcome, but I don`t think we in the United States of America have been clear about where we want this to go. We haven`t been clear to our troops even that we`re sending into Syria what political outcome we want. I would say that rather than defeating Assad militarily and defeating ISIS in the process, we ought to unite and organize insurgent opposition that are willing to oppose Assad and present a political alternative to his regime but also oppose ISIS. That`s a reasonable outcome that we can work towards. It`s not actually that different from what the Russians are proposing. So, maybe there is some common ground here but we`ve got to be absolutely clear. We`re not going to defeat ISIS if we just drop some bombs and kill some fighters and don`t have a way to fill the political vacuum that has allowed them to expand and grow in both Syria and Iraq and by the way, potentially in Afghanistan. If we mismanage our withdrawal from that conflict and allow another political vacuum to grow in Afghanistan where we could have terrorist training camps, where ISIS could grow and where they could stage attacks on the United States down the road. ENGEL: Not to mention ISIS in the Sinai, ISIS which has a huge base in Libya right now. MOULTON: Absolutely. ENGEL: Congressman Moulton of Massachusetts, thank you very much for your time tonight. It`s great of you to join us. MOULTON: Thank you. ENGEL: Ahead, how the attacks are defining one governor`s race in the U.S. We are live from Paris. Please stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: Welcome back to Paris. As of tonight, back if the U.S., 31 governors, almost all of them Republicans, now say their states do not want refugees from Syria, 31 governors all saying no. And then there are the people who want to be governor. The state of Louisiana is in the thick of an election for governor right now. They will pick a new governor next weekend. So, the guy on the left there is a Democratic state lawmaker named John Bel Edwards. On the right, that is Republican U.S. Senator David Vitter. Even though the Republicans were favored to win in the Louisiana governorship, Vitter has been trailing Edwards by double digits in the polls and by a mile in fund-raising. But these attacks by ISIS and the news that one of the attackers came through Greece with Syrian refugees have given the Republican what he hopes will be a last-minute knock outpunch. Vitter is casting himself as a future governor who would block Syrian refugees. He is casting his opponent as a governor who would open the gates. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AD NARRATOR: One of the Paris ISIS terrorists has entered France posing as a Syrian refugee. Now, Obama is sending Syrian refugees to Louisiana. David Vitter warned Obama the dangers of Syrian refugees weeks ago and promised as governor, no Syrian refugees will enter Louisiana. John Bel Edwards has pledged to work with Obama to bring Syrian refugees to Louisiana. JOHN BEL EDWARDS (D), LOUISIANA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I support the president. AD NARRATOR: He always does. (END VIDEO CLIP) ENGEL: Fact checkers will be scrutinizing that campaign ad by Vitter. Already, "The Washington Post" calls some of it misleading. But the combination of the Syrian refugee crisis in Europe and the attacks in Paris have spilled over into U.S. politics, clearly. Today in Congress, Speaker Paul Ryan said he will bring forward a bill to pause the U.S. program for resettling Syrian refugees. Other House Republican leaders are proposing that each individual refugee be approved by the director of the FBI and national intelligence before being admitted to the United States. These are political responses to a humanitarian crisis that is so far has defied political solutions. I`ll take you up close to that crisis as it unfolds, in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: Welcome back to Paris. I`m Richard Engel. Rachel is off tonight but will be back tomorrow. According to French officials, we now know that one of the men involved in the Paris attacks, a man who may have been going by the name Ahmad el Mohamed and using this passport passed through Greece on his way to Paris. We know that because of a fingerprint that were taken from the scene, match prints taken in Greece last month. It is a discovery that is adding fuel to an already raging debate how to handle and whether to help the Syrian refugee crisis. As European leaders struggle to deal with what to do with their borders, American politicians are now calling for bans on Syrian refugees in their home states, even a countrywide ban. Before coming to Paris, I went to the refugees` main entry point into the European Union. The Greek islands where the stream of those fleeing the war in Syria is as constant as it is daunting. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ENGEL: Good to go? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please? ENGEL: There is only one helicopter patrolling around the Greek island of Lesbos. We joined its Romanian crew, which is part of an ongoing joint European border control mission in the Mediterranean. It didn`t take long for them to spot refugees. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see one, two boats. Two rubber boats reach the shoreline. ENGEL: At 12:00, boats are landing on shore? UNDIENTIFIED MALE: Yes, 12:00, 10:00, 11:00. ENGEL: At 12:00, 11:00, 10. I see them, yes. The chopper`s camera focused on one boat in distress. To rescue it, the chopper crew called in a nearby Greek coast guard cutter, cutter 080. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zero-eight-zero, radio check with Romanian helicopter. ENGEL: Guided by the chopper, it sped over to help. To get a closer look of how all this works, we boarded 080 before dawn a couple days later. Captain (INAUDIBLE) runs the ship. He told us why Lesbos has become the main gateway for refugees and migrants. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are a medium distance from Turkey. This is the border. ENGEL: It`s a simple matter of proximity. When daylight broke, Captain Faragolis (ph), a fisherman son, scanned the sea. Soon, we saw many boats. Although these missions are technically for border control, the coast guard doesn`t turn anyone around. It`s illegal to do that on the high seas. Instead, Captain Faragolis offers them assistance. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you are OK? You need something? ENGEL: Most boats decline the captain`s offer. And cruise on towards the Greek coast. But soon enough, 080 finds a boat in trouble. It happens all the time. The crew pulls it closer and tells the refugees to be calm. So they don`t flip over. The captain follows the old rule of the sea. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, everybody safe, OK? First, women and children, OK? After men. ENGEL: They`re nearly all from Iraq and Syria. Few, if any, can swim. These refugee boats, rafts really are incredibly unseaworthy. They`re packed with people, women, children, there must be 60, 70 people on this one. They were just adrift in the water. Their engine had completely stopped. They passed the children up first. They`re wet, confused and terrified. Then their parents are lifted from the sinking boat. Rana, an Iraqi, has her children, 10-month-old Sali and her 3-year-old Ayman. Her husband says he had been getting death threats. "We left for the children`s sake," he said. "There`s no future for them in Iraq." The captain explains to the refugees that they will not be deported or charged. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You all are going to be Lesbos island in a few hours. ENGEL: In fact, their names aren`t even written down on board. Many have no documents anyway. But before they go, another coast guard cutter arrives with more rescued refugees and migrants. They`re off loaded on to 80, soon there`s little room left on the deck. So, Captain Faragolis` ship heads back with more than 150 migrants. He says that`s not unusual. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like this every day. Every day. ENGEL: Back on shore, life jackets and broken boats everywhere, piles and piles of them. And these are just from recent arrivals. Volunteers clean up the beaches every few days and the boats keep coming. Greek officials say the rafts land every 15 minutes or so. No checks, Greece asks that the refugees and migrants register and most do. But there`s almost no capacity to verify their identities or if the documents that many of them carry are authentic. (END VIDEOTAPE) ENGEL: My trip with the Greek coast guard just a few days ago, the first stop for many of those refugees and migrants in Europe. Joining us now in Paris is Bruno Stagno Ugarte -- excuse me for brutalizing names tonight. He is the deputy executive director for advocacy of Human Rights Watch. You deal with human rights issues. How worried are you that the reputation, the image of all of these people who are leaving war zones has been tarnished by what happened in Paris by that association with the migrant route? BRUNO STAGNO UGARTE, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: As we see it, that`s a false association. The evidence and the facts points to the fact that the terrorists that did this ghastly attack here on Friday, this was homegrown terrorism. It was concocted. It was planned. It was organized. It was executed by people that were born and raised in Europe. There`s a strong Belgian connection, and there`s a strong French connection. The evidence of one passport and nobody really knows whether it`s a fake, whether it actually belonged to the person that actually did blow himself up outside of the Stade de France, that basically does not discredit the hundreds of thousands of refugees who are fleeing violence, the very violence, the very terror that struck Paris. These are people that are fleeing terrorism from ISIS, from al-Nusra, from other terrorist groups. They`re fleeing sectarian violence. They`re fleeing all types of indiscriminate bombings by Bashar al-Assad. So, these are people that need our compassion and these are people that need international protection. ENGEL: You`ve been listening to the show standing next to me for the last few minutes. What did you think about that segment that the governors say not in our states, we don`t want any Syrians? As a human rights advocate, what do you think of that? UGARTE: It`s a shame also for the legacy and the history the U.S. has as a country that resettles refugees. The U.S. has been a sideling light on this matter for decades. And the fact that not basing themselves on any credible evidence, they are fear-mongering, they are scapegoating does not doing justice to what the U.S. stands for. And it also sends a terrible message to a good number of European Union members. There`s a huge discussion here in Europe as to how the refugee flow should be distributed amongst the various 28 member states. How to tell Greece that there will be no responsibility, no burden sharing taken by the U.S. when Greece is a country that`s in dire financial straits that will continue to see an important flow of refugees, why would Greece continue to take them on if the U.S. takes such a position that lacks so much compassion? ENGEL: It allows other countries to say, hey, the U.S. isn`t doing it. We`re not going to either. UGARTE: It sends a terrible message. The U.S. is part of a globalized world. It has to live up to its obligations and to its duties. It is part of the protocol to the Convention on Refugees. They`re an international obligation. The number we`re talking about is just 10,000. That`s what he President Obama promised for 2016. This is just a drop in the bucket. And the U.S. has all the means to screen these people. Currently, the screening process is not an easy one. It takes refugees that are to be resettled in the U.S. up to two years. They`re screened by the FBI, by the Department of Homeland Security, by a number of agencies. So, the screening process will practically ensure that terrorists will be filtered. ENGEL: Thank you very much. And to stress the scale of this issue, on that one small island alone, the island of Lesbos, sometimes 5,000 to 10,000 people a day arriving on these boats. So, just taking in a few thousand is a drop in the buckets. But thank you very much for joining us with that important message. I appreciate it. UGARTE: Thank you, Richard. ENGEL: Thank you so much for Human Rights Watch. Still ahead, an the war on ISIS is waving -- the war on ISIS waging on the brave few who are trying to stop what is happening in Raqqa. The self-proclaimed (ph) capital of ISIS in Syria. Please stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: In the days since Friday`s terrorist attacks here in Paris, France has launched dozens of airstrikes in Syria, primarily in the city of Raqqa, the de facto capital of ISIS. Police have also carried out hundreds of raids on homes in France and Belgium detaining dozens of people and placing over 100 under house arrest. So, there is a military air war under way and also an on the ground house-to-house hunt for accomplices or people who knew something about the attacks or people who might be planning the next attack. The hunt is also on for relationships and social networks and human intelligence and how you can find that kind of hunting on both sides of ISIS and by ISIS sympathizers. One of the only ways in which information makes it out of Raqqa, Syria, and to the rest of the world is through a group called Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently. They are brave activists and journalists documenting the atrocities being carried out by ISIS and sending the news to members who are of the press who are outside Syria, often to the media, often to other activists. It is an incredibly risky operation. Imagine filming inside Raqqa and trying to distribute that to others while ISIS is looking for you. Members of the group have been systematically hunted down and killed. Some of them even killed when they`re not inside Syria. I saw the terrifying effect of that firsthand a couple of weeks ago when I met someone in Raqqa, an activist who was then in Turkey. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ENGEL: By the time the emergency services showed up in an apartment building in the Turkish city, all they could do was carry out the bodies of two young Syrian men, Faris Hamadi (ph) and Ibrahim Abdel Qatar (ph). Both were members of a group of activists who risked their lives to tell the world what`s going on in their hometown of Raqqa, the ISIS capital in Syria. Both men were beheaded. We knew one of the victims, Ibrahim. We interviewed him in Turkey almost a year ago and asked him about the threats on his life. He didn`t flinch. "Of course, there is danger, but we are the sons of our country", he said. "If we don`t show the crimes of ISIS to the whole world, who will?" Ibrahim was proud of his work with a group of citizen journalists which calls itself Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently. They secretly filmed and smuggled out videos designed to embarrass ISIS, like this one showing bread lines in Raqqa, contrary to the claims that the so-called Islamic State is prosperous and thriving. We asked him if he was afraid. "They put a ransom on my head," he told us, "for anyone who killed me." We told him we hope he stayed safe. "I`m taking precautions," he told us. "I rarely leave my apartment." So, how did ISIS manage to reach and brutally murder Ibrahim, stabbing him nearly 50 times? We learned the answer from Ibrahim`s brother Ahmed, who says it started about six weeks ago when an old family friend rented an apartment next door. "He came in a smart way, Ibrahim was a good guy, welcoming. So he knew he could get to him," Ahmed says. This is that man who Ahmed said unexpectedly moved in next door, Tala Sasur (ph), claiming to be an ISIS defector. He befriended Ibrahim and the other murdered activist Faris. Here they are together. Both activists were killed in Tala`s apartment. A Turkish police source tells NBC News they have other evidence against him. Ahmed Tala slipped back into Syria to re-join ISIS, but he hasn`t kept quiet. As we were filming, Ahmed received a text message on his phone. "The message he just sent me said, `We killed Ibrahim to break your heart`", Ahmed says. He admits it, he said I did it, we`re coming for you. "Yes, he said just wait. Your turn is coming in a matter of days," he says. Ahmed showed me the window of Tala`s rented apartment across the alley. He says Tala covered the windows with cardboard and blankets right before the murder and invited over two suspected accomplices. "If they think this will stop me, they are wrong. Just the opposite. I`m more determined, we will keep going until we are finished with ISIS. This is a promise for Ibrahim and all the victims of Raqqa," he says. (END VIDEOTAPE) ENGEL: It is so hard and so dangerous to get information out of Raqqa. A week from tonight in New York City, that group, Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently, will receive an international press freedom award from the Committee to Protect Journalists. The most recent video from the group was posted today as France carried out another day of air strikes. It`s filmed total darkness, labeled the sounds of war planes over Raqqa. There`s more to come tonight, live from Paris. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are the same folks to suggest they`re so tough that just talking to Putin or staring them down ISIL or using some additional rhetoric somehow is going to solve all the problems out there. But apparently, they`re scared of widows and orphans coming into the United States of America as part of our tradition of compassion. At first, they were worried about the press being too tough on them during debates. Now, they`re worried about 3-year-old orphans. That doesn`t sound very tough to me. They`ve been playing on fear in order to try to score political points or to advance their campaigns, and it`s irresponsible. And it`s contrary to who we are. And it needs to stop because the world is watching. (END VIDEO CLIP) ENGEL: That was President Obama speaking in the last hour at a regional trade summit in the Philippines. More from Paris, straight ahead. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) ENGEL: Four days ago, this beautiful city of Paris suffered the worst attack in its post-war history, and tonight, standing here at Place de la Republique, I wonder if this latest atrocity will be enough to push political and national calculations aside and persuade governments all over the world to come together and fight a new enemy, so vile it is once again an enemy for all of us, an enemy that celebrates death over life, an enemy that`s enshrined slave owning as a religious right. The question is, has ISIS killed enough to unite Russia and the U.S., France and Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran in a battle against it? The answer, sadly, is probably not. But hey, this is Paris. One can dream. I`m Richard Engel. Rachel will be back tomorrow. MSNBC`s coverage of the attacks on Paris continues now with Lawrence O`Donnell. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END