Show: MTP DAILY Date: January 22, 2018 Guest: Noah Rothman, Zerlina Maxwell, Charlie Dent, Caitlin Huey-Burns
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC: -- right now as you are speaking, the Senate voted. I think it was 81to18 to end this three-day shutdown.
My thanks to Kimberly Atkins, Charlie Sykes, Donna Edwards, Betsy Woodruff, and Steve Schmidt. That does it for our hour. I`m Nicolle Wallace.
MTP DAILY starts right now with my friend, the fabulous Katy Tur in for Chuck. Hi.
KATY TUR, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Congratulations on that "New York Times" interview.
WALLACE: Oh, I do my best.
TUR: It was wonderful.
WALLACE: Thanks.
TUR: You deserve it. Great to be your colleague.
WALLACE: Thanks.
TUR: Guys, if it is Monday, the shutdown is ending. But for how long?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Tonight, America is opening for business once again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ayes are 81, the nays are 18.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The motion is agreed to.
TUR: The Democrats give in, ending the government shutdown. But only temporarily.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUISIANA: You don`t do that unless you`ve got an emergency, and this wasn`t an emergency.
TUR: Now, can lawmakers get past their trouble with trust and resolve the DACA dilemma?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER IN THE SENATE: The Republican majority now has 17 days to prevent the Dreamers from being deported.
TUR: Plus, is anybody home at the White House? Why was President Trump radio silent as lawmakers hashed out a deal?
This is MTP DAILY and it starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: Good evening and welcome to MTP DAILY. I`m Katy Tur in New York, in for Chuck Todd.
It looks like the government shutdown is coming to an end. Possibly in this hour. But if the battle is over, the roar is just beginning.
The Senate just voted to reopen the government after members from both parties reached an agreement on a three-week government funding deal earlier today. We`re expecting a vote in the House soon after.
But, guys, right now, hardliners on both sides aren`t happy, especially on the left, even if moderates on both sides are.
The President`s leadership is once again being questioned despite what the White House is trying to spin. And both parties are still as divided as ever on one of the hardest issues they could face: immigration.
So who blinked first? Democrats wanted a deal on DACA, but all they got was a promise for a vote soon on a bill that might be dead on arrival in the House. They said they didn`t want to pay for a border wall, but it sounds like they immigration hardliners will get the billions they`re asking for.
Guys, that`s why the Democratic base is clearly worried that they are getting played. This House member told Bloomberg that Senate Democrats caved. They blinked. That`s what they do.
Another Senate aide told NBC News, quote, we caved, we lost. We shouldn`t try to spin it as a win for immigrants.
House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and her second in command, Steny Hoyer, say they`ll vote no on the bill when it gets to their chamber.
Plus, the White House, which was quick to point the finger at Democrats, even while the President was negotiating with Schumer, is clearly considering it a win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I am pleased that Democrats in Congress have come to their senses. Democrats realized that the position that they had taken, frankly, was indefensible.
The President stayed firm. Republicans stayed firm. And Democrats, I think, realized that they had to move past that piece of legislation and so that they could focus on the conversation they are desperate to have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: But guess who was not at the negotiating table? The art of the deal President.
President Trump skipped a high price gala at Mar-a-Lago over the weekend to stay in Washington. But other than a few staged photos of him around the West Wing, he hasn`t been seen. The White House did say that the President lunched with some of the Senate`s Republican hardliners on immigration today.
And a White House official tells NBC News that Democratic Senators Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Doug Jones of Alabama met with the President to discuss immigration as well this afternoon. That meeting happened after the deal was struck to reopen the government.
Earlier today, right after Democrats and Republicans on the Hill announced a break in the stalemate, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said he hadn`t spoken to the President since their meeting on Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHUMER: The reason the Republican majority had such difficulty finding consensus is they could never get a firm grip on what the President of their party wanted to do. The great deal-making President sat on the sidelines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: And so far, no tweets from the President either. So which side bore the brunt of this shutdown? Did Democrats cave, or was the President`s lack of leadership exposed?
Let`s check in with my colleague on Capitol Hill, Garrett Haake.
Garrett, good to see you. What is the latest? Where is this bill going now?
GARRETT HAAKE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Katy. Well, at some point, it`s going to come across the hallway to where I`m standing outside the House of Representatives chamber, but that door is still locked up tight. So I don`t think we`ll have the final resolution of this in this hour, but it does look like it will be resolved tonight.
And as to the President staying out of the debate up until this point, we saw him jump back into it today, meeting with that group of hardliner Republicans on immigration and then meeting with two much more moderate Democrats, Joe Manchin and the newly-elected Doug Jones of Alabama. The President likes to meet with people who he likes on these issues, and we`re seeing that happen here.
As to how effective the shutdown was for Democrats, it might take us probably until the end of this three-week continuing resolution to get an answer to that. Democrats learned the limits of being the minority party in both chambers and not having the White House.
They weren`t able to force a new piece of legislation out of this. They weren`t able to force a new position from the White House or from the House of Representatives. But what they got in the Senate and what they are spinning it as is a promise from Mitch McConnell to deal with the immigration issue forthrightly.
And it`s been interesting to hear the evolution of the language over the course of the day. Really from last night, when Mitch McConnell, on the floor, talked about it being his intention to deal with immigration, DACA, border security, and then hearing Democrats in the afternoon say they got a promise, a pledge, a commitment from Mitch McConnell.
They are going to try to hold him to this, and they`re going to use some of the Republican allies who came to their aid in that bipartisan group that met all weekend like Lindsey Graham, Susan Collins, Jeff Flake, to help them try to hold Mitch McConnell to this.
But in terms of a solution to DACA that Democrats are going to like, we are a long way from seeing that.
TUR: Yes.
HAAKE: What we will see is a robust fight over immigration over the next three weeks.
TUR: Is anybody listening to the progressive voices out there who are saying that the Democrats got hosed in this, that they should not have caved and that Mitch McConnell and the President are about to get everything they want?
HAAKE: Absolutely. There were, I think, 17 or 18 Democrats who did still vote no on this deal. And the list of names are the list of big-name progressives, a lot of the folks who get whispered or sometimes spoken quite loudly about as possibly running for president.
So you see the folks on the left side of the caucus like Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders. These are all folks who voted no on this deal for different reasons.
Many of -- some of them saying they just don`t like the idea of another continuing resolution. Some saying, look, this doesn`t address what they see as the core problem which is providing some protection for these Dreamers.
But Republicans, I think, were probably not ever going to do this in a legislative way while the government was closed. They didn`t want to encourage this kind of behavior from Democrats. But, again, now we`ll see this open fight on the Senate floor, and that is where this is going to go down over the next couple of weeks.
TUR: Garrett Haake, appreciate it. Thanks for your time.
HAAKE: You bet.
TUR: And joining me is Hawaii Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono.
Senator, thank you very much for being here. Appreciate your time.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D), HAWAII: Hi, Katy. Aloha.
TUR: Do you think that the Democrats caved?
HIRONO: No. There are some battles worth fighting. And, you know, fighting for the Dreamers and for funding for Children`s Health, for community health centers, and parity between defense and nondefense spending, that`s a battle worth fighting.
And as you said, the war is definitely not over. And so come February 8th, we all heard Mitch McConnell say that we`re going to deal with the DACA, we`re going to have big debates, and it will be a knockdown, drag-out battle. But during that battle, I want to make sure that we keep DACA protections front and center.
TUR: Correct me if I`m wrong, though, Senator, you voted against the C.R., right?
HIRONO: That is right.
TUR: So then if the Democrats didn`t cave, why did you vote against it?
HIRONO: I don`t view it as caving. Why? Because the battle is not over. I voted against this C.R. because I have been consistent in my position that I would vote against any C.R. that did not address DACA, that didn`t fund Children`s Health, community health centers, and did not provide parity.
So I voted against it. At the same time, we`re all going to hold Mitch McConnell to his promise, and I think he`s going to hold to it because he has a significant number of people in his own caucus.
I think don`t he gives much concern to our caucus, the moderates, but I think he is concerned about the moderates in his caucus who went to him and said, let`s get on with it. Let the Senate act like the Senate. Let us not -- I hope what they`re saying is we shouldn`t wait around for the President to tell us what to do because he can`t make up his mind about just -- about anything.
And, in fact, I would prefer that the President stay out of it, and let the Senate be the Senate. We should get on it. We should have the battle over DACA and immigration reform -- which I support, comprehensive immigration reform -- and we shall see whose side people are on.
TUR: But let`s talk about what the Democrats, as of now, at least, have gotten out of this deal to stop the government shutdown.
There is no DACA deal on the table. There is only a promise from Mitch McConnell. There is no similar or any promise whatsoever from Paul Ryan in the House to take up any sort of bill to talk about immigration.
You have Senator Schumer giving Donald Trump a commitment to fund the wall. That`s a pretty major concession.
HIRONO: That is no longer --
TUR: And now, the Democratic Caucus --
HIRONO: Excuse me.
TUR: But now the Democratic Caucus is divided in a way that it was not just a week ago.
HIRONO: I don`t think our caucus is divided in the -- in that we want to get to protecting the Dreamers. We`re not divided on that.
You know, the battle is not over, and sometimes you have to change your tactics. I can live with that, even as I voted against this continuing resolution for the reasons that I articulated.
But I am very much looking forward, shall we say, to what will probably be a defining debate over immigration reform in our country and whether or not all these Republicans who keep saying -- including the President, who keep saying we want to protect the DACA participants, let`s see what their actions really will be.
TUR: You almost interrupted me when I was talking about Senator Schumer giving the money for the wall to the President.
HIRONO: Oh.
TUR: Is that -- has that changed?
HIRONO: Oh, of course. The wall is no longer something that -- you know, Chuck Schumer was willing to put the wall on the table if we got a full DACA and full Dreamers. And that`s not happening so that`s off the table.
TUR: What if you -- what if there is an offer for DACA but that has to go back on the table? Is the wall funding going to go back on the table at some point?
HIRONO: I think we`re going to have a full-throated debate on DACA and possibly on a lot of other aspects of comprehensive immigration reform.
And I know, where I`m coming from, that we need to keep our focus on the urgency of taking care of the DACA, Dreamers, and also a comprehensive immigration reform that maintains family unity as a guiding principle because that is what our country was founded on. And I speak from personal experience as an immigrant myself.
TUR: But do you think that if the negotiation continues again and DACA is offered, that there should be funding for the wall included? Is that a fair tradeoff?
HIRONO: I think there are a lot of Republicans who don`t think that spending $18 billion plus on a wall is quite the way to go, and so we`ll see. I hope that calmer heads will prevail.
I realize that if the President keeps talking about wanting a wall and then he talks about maybe it won`t be continuous, et cetera, then, you know, we shall see. But I am very focused on protecting Dreamers and giving them a path to citizenship. I think that is, first and foremost, what I`m going to be looking for as we negotiate come February 8th.
TUR: Well, there are three weeks until February 8th.
HIRONO: Yes.
TUR: There`s a lot of negotiating that has yet to happen. This is an issue that has torn apart Congress now for many years. It`s one of the ones you most vehemently disagree with each other on. Why -- or just, say, if you`re not able to come to an agreement on February 8th, is there a consideration to shut down the government again?
HIRONO: Well, I am hopeful that there is a group of moderates -- you know, it`s not all the hardline immigration people such as Tom Cotton who represent the entire Republican side. I`m hopeful that the moderates will say, look, let`s go forward.
And we actually pass comprehensive immigration reform in a bipartisan way in 2013, and I was very involved in that effort. So let us hope that the Senate will act like the Senate and not wait around for the President to provide guidance that does not come.
TUR: The Senate can act like the Senate, but is there any concern about what`s going to happen in the House?
HIRONO: I think first things first. I`ll accept the Senate acting like the Senate first off, and then we need to convince our colleagues in the House that they should move forward in a humane, just way with regard to DACA and comprehensive immigration reform.
TUR: But is it worth making any deal with Mitch McConnell if you don`t have a similar deal or promise from Paul Ryan?
HIRONO: Well, as you mentioned, Katy, that if -- you`re not the one setting the agenda, you said a while, but you still have to fight the battles that are worth fighting. And this is a battle worth fighting because, truly, you know, which side are you on? And so that`s going to come to the fore.
And I understand the disappointment of the Dreamers, but we`re not done yet and they need to keep advocating. And, clearly, they need to go visit everybody in the House to make sure that we get the support that we need in the House for what, I hope, will emerge from the Senate in a bipartisan way come February 8th.
TUR: So one last time, will you shut down the government again if there is no deal on DACA?
HIRONO: Let us hope that we`re not going to go down the same path and expect some different result.
TUR: We can hope, but I`m asking you a question --
HIRONO: I wasn`t eager --
TUR: But if a deal does not happen --
HIRONO: I was not eager to shut down.
TUR: Here is the thing. It does -- there is a possibility that it`s not going to happen by February 8th. All signs seem to point to that considering what we`ve seen in the past in terms of immigration debates.
The government is about to reopen. It was already shut down for a few days. Are you going to consider shutting it down again on February 8th if there is no deal for DACA?
HIRONO: I think that once DACA, sadly, is off the table in terms of a complete package, then we`re going to move forward with what, I hope, is a longer-term appropriation so that our government can run for longer than three weeks or one month at a time and that there will be consensus around funding Children`s Health as well as community health centers. And I think those discussions will bear fruit.
At the same time, it`s very clear that the Republicans did not want to deal with DACA and immigration in any kind of a full way, and therefore, we are where we are. But we`re going to do our best. I`m certainly going to do my very best to go forward.
And so what I`m saying, Katy, is that the same factors that led to a government shutdown will probably not be there this time around. And therefore, we`re all going to move forward and fight the battles that we need to fight.
TUR: We will see. Senator Hirono. Senator, thank you so much for your time.
HIRONO: Thank you.
TUR: And let`s hear now from the other side. Joining me is Virginia Republican Congressman Tom Garrett.
Congressman, thank you very much for being here. We appreciate your time, sir.
REP. TOM GARRETT, JR. (R), VIRGINIA: Katy, thanks for the opportunity.
TUR: What is going on with the President? Is he leading on this? Has he been involved in the negotiations to reopen the government?
GARRETT: Oh, I think so. I mean, you know, there is an argument that he`s just surrendered to the flow, but I don`t think that`s happened at all.
Now, at some point, you have to understand that this -- that we got to out of this maze that was created by the Senate itself and by Senator Schumer`s sort of histrionic fit that demanded a shutdown. So if there`s a silver lining here, it`s that that the United States` public got a civics lesson on what a filibuster is and how a minority can sort of stop everything if they want to.
TUR: But can you make the argument that the President was just, I don`t know, taking care of his own shoes and not taking care of shoes of the Republican Party when he disappeared over the weekend and didn`t offer any leadership and didn`t say what he wanted out of this immigration debate, didn`t say what his demands were for the C.R.?
GARRETT: Well, you --
TUR: Didn`t even make a single call to a Democrat.
GARRETT: Well, you could say he`d become an island in the hazy world around this. But having said that, we don`t know what`s going on behind the scenes as it relates to the President`s contact with leadership in the Senate.
I think -- again, I mean, I -- look, this is not -- you can say it`s a Schumer shutdown or a Trump shutdown. I think when you announce that the shutdown is going to end before the vote has been held, that you`ve admitted that it was your shutdown. Which Senator Schumer did.
And I think he was afraid that -- you know, they have the reigns. And if they don`t do something, we will. And that`s your nuclear option. So I think President Trump was leading when he discussed those sorts of things.
TUR: You have to admit there is a rift in the Republican Party when it comes to immigration. You got a promise from Mitch McConnell to take up this issue on the Senate floor. No such promise being made by Paul Ryan. Should there be a promise to take up the issue of Dreamers and to talk about -- to debate immigration?
GARRETT: Well, I think you got to go there, I mean. But honestly, with hyperbole probably intended, you know, for Senator Schumer to declare a victory because the Senate is going to act on DACA, it`s kind of like saying we won because they promised that a week from now, it`s -- it will be Monday again.
What we know is that there is a desire on both sides of the aisle to address the reality existential in the question of 800,000 young people, to address DACA.
Having said that, there are hyperbolic headlines that say, for example, in the "L.A. Times," deportations of DACA recipients surge under Trump. If you read the story -- and the "L.A. Times" wrote a good story on it -- they pointed out that the 43 people deported had all been found guilty of criminal offenses or gang activity.
I want to help people who were brought here when they were two or three, but I don`t want to help people who are engaging in criminal activity.
And the other thing here is, I think, we were asked to prioritize the well- being of these people ahead of nine million children as it relates to CHIP -- right in my state, 67,000 kids, 1.1 thousand expectant mothers -- and ahead of funding our armed services.
And I think the answer -- the long-term answer to DACA is a secure southern border so that we can control immigration, which I support so long as we`re bringing people in that are going to help this country like generations are seeing them have.
TUR: I`m not so sure why you can`t just have a clean DACA vote. If you`re a Dreamer and you`ve broken the law, you`re no longer protected under --
GARRETT: Right! And thank you --
TUR: -- under the rules.
GARRETT: Exactly!
TUR: So you`re going to go anyway, so --
GARRETT: And then this --
TUR: But you`re saying it`s coming before CHIP, it`s becoming before funding the military --
GARRETT: Well, here`s -- but here`s the --
TUR: -- but it doesn`t have to. I mean, you can do all these things at same time.
GARRETT: No, but I think -- and thank you for being candid and even candid in your reporting, but the deadline for CHIP has passed. The deadline for the federal budget to support our troops has passed. The deadline for DACA is in March, right?
Unfortunately -- and I think you and I would agree on this -- we oftentimes do this like a high school kid does a term paper that`s been pushed to the last minute. But really and truly, the clock has run out on CHIP. The clock has run out on a budget. We have until March to do something on DACA.
If Senator Schumer were to do -- would have done the same thing in March, I`d have a little bit more sympathy because that`s the date that the President -- right? He said it! So, yes.
But there is going to be a discussion. I want to secure that southern border, and then I want to address the reality of young people who were brought here as children. We did this in the `80s with a this-then-that. It didn`t work which is why we find ourselves here again. Let`s do it a little bit differently this time.
TUR: Let`s talk about this immigration ad that was released by the campaign for the President. Take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats who stand in our way will be complicit in every murder committed by illegal immigrants. President Trump will fix our border and keep our families safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUR: The White House is bouncing around the room a little bit in terms of who is responsible for this ad. You had Marc Short, over the weekend, talking to Chuck Todd, saying that this wasn`t a White House ad even though it was paid for by Donald J. Trump.
Do you agree that it`s a good idea to say that Democrats will be complicit if there is any more crimes being committed by an undocumented immigrant or an illegal immigrant?
GARRETT: No, it`s --
TUR: Or complicit with murder?
GARRETT: Katy, look, you know, I support the bulk of what this President has done, but I am frustrated as I can be with the messaging.
We need to tone down the rhetoric in this country, right? We need to not have U.S. senators and vice-presidential candidates saying we need to fight in the street. We need to not have the sitting Vice President say they want to put you back in chains.
And if I`m willing to criticize former Vice President Biden or Senator Kaine for that hyperbolic rhetoric, then I ought to be willing to criticize the President if he is responsible for that.
Let`s tone it down a little. There are a lot of people who I don`t agree with who don`t agree with me who I get along very well with. That`s what America is supposed to be.
So if indeed he is responsible for that, I think he ought to change the tone of the rhetoric. It may win in the short-term, but it`s bad for America in the long-term.
TUR: With all due respect, Congressman, how in the world are you going to tone down the rhetoric when the President himself is no fan of toning anything down?
GARRETT: Well, I mean, look, ultimately, in life, there are those things that we control, there`s things that we don`t control, and there`s things that we can influence. And by saying, on your program, that I`d like to see a change in the messaging, it`s only me continuing to message that I`d like to see a change in the messaging.
But we do need to secure our border. There is -- look, there are some wonderful people who came here as immigrants for sure. That doesn`t mean that some bad people didn`t come here illegally too, right?
So we should be able to concede these things and work towards a reasonable solution without sort of casting our ideological opponents as some sort of existential evil that threatens all of humanity. It`s not who we`re supposed to be as a nation.
So that -- but, I think, you know, you`ve been very even -handed in this report, and I`m trying not to -- look, obviously, I`m pretty partisan, but I don`t need to be mean, so.
TUR: Congressman, it`s been great tangling with you and bouncing around the room, if you will. If you`ll let me use that again. Appreciate your time, sir.
GARRETT: Yes, yes. Outstanding, Katy. Thanks for the opportunity.
TUR: And much more on our breaking news, the House prepares to vote to end the government shutdown, right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TUR: Mark your calendars. The U.S. government will be funded until February 8th in this latest deal, but can lawmakers reach a deal beyond that?
We`ll break it all down with tonight`s panel in just 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TUR: Welcome back to MTP DAILY. Let`s bring in our panel. Former Clinton campaign adviser and current director of progressive programming for SiriusXM Zerlina Maxwell, "Commentary Magazine" associate editor Noah Rothman, and RealClearPolitics political reporter Caitlin Huey-Burns.
Guys, welcome.
ZERLINA MAXWELL, DIRECTOR OF PROGRESSIVE PROGRAMMING, SIRIUSXM: Thanks.
TUR: It`s not so often that I get an e-mail in my inbox from the White House or the RNC that matches the e-mail I`m getting from progressive groups, from MoveOn.org or ThinkProgress.
I mean, look at this. "Daily Caller," "Dems cave"; Breitbart, "Surrender, Democrats get nothing"; MoveOn.org, "Terrible shutdown deal, abandons Dreamers"; ThinkProgress, "Senate Democrats cave, provide votes based on McConnell`s empty promise."
I mean, that`s harsh when those two groups agree.
MAXWELL: Yes. Well, I think that the Democratic base doesn`t trust Mitch McConnell, and why would they? I just have to throw out the name Merrick Garland for Democrats to remember that Mitch McConnell is not someone who should be trusted in making future promises to do something.
And so I think that, in this particular case, Democrats had the leverage, and they did cave. But I think that Democrats who are upset with the decision today should spend the next three weeks organizing to ensure that, on February the 8th, they then have the momentum behind the elected Democrats in terms of the support of activists and supporters so that Democrats don`t cave on February 8th.
TUR: But isn`t the reality that the shutdown was not going to remain popular and the Democrats were very clearly worried about how it would affect, not only their chances in 2018 but especially the Senators who were coming from red states?
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Exactly. There is a lot of chaos and a lot of unprecedented things that happened in this administration, but there is a political reality that remains, which is you need 60 votes to proceed with any legislation. Republicans have 51 so they, you know, are in control of Congress but not complete control of the Senate.
And they were able to put kind of a wedge between the Democrats who wanted to stick on the ground and shut the government down -- to fund DACA if it meant shutting the government down and the others that you just mentioned who are going to be in these states -- running for re-election in states that Trump won overwhelmingly, who are trying to make the case to their voters that, look, I`m a dealmaker too. I can work with Republicans in Congress just as well as Democrats.
So they were certainly put in a big position here. I think the Democratic Party is going through something now which is, you know, they have a very restive, active base that they want to mobilize in the elections. They also know that that base isn`t necessarily going to support the realities at hand, which is that you have limited leverage when you are in the minority.
TUR: Progressives are up in arms already, many of them. How do you convince progressives, is there a way to convince progressives that they should trust Mitch McConnell when he says he`s going to do something?
NOAH ROTHMAN, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, COMMENTARY MAGAZINE: Well, I don`t know whether you can trust Mitch McConnell if you`re from a progressive perspective. What you can do is look at the results of this shutdown and say, boy, did this not work out the way we thought it was going to work out.
That reminds me a lot of 2013 where you had a sympatigo sort of mind meld between this activist class on the right, a very recalcitrant, sort of unrealistic base on the right, and the governing lane of the Democratic Party. Those two guys sort of come together and say, look, this thing, you know, wasn`t -- it`s not going to work out.
And I would be surprised to see whether or not this sort of dynamic disappears. We`re entering into an election year. There is, obviously, a lot of auditioning going on among Senate Democrats who are vying for the presidency in 2020.
They have every incentive to engage and climb up the pole and not back down and get the Democratic Caucus into a cul-de-sac because it advances their prospects. It did very well for Republicans who did the same -- pursued the same strategy in 2013.
TUR: Let`s be real, though. I mean, very little sticks from day-to-day, let alone week-to-week --
MAXWELL: Right.
TUR: -- or even month-to-month. We have months to go --
MAXWELL: Right.
TUR: -- before anybody casts a ballot and we have three weeks now until this is all debated again and if DACA is not settled, Democrats are going to be able to use that as a campaign wedge issue. ZERLINA MAXWELL, DIRECTOR, PROGRESSIVE PROGRAMMING FOR XIRIUS XM: Absolutely. And Latinos are a very big voting block. You know, the congressman earlier said, you know, we`re not in a rush because the deadline is not until March. Well, I have to tell them something. A hundred and twenty people are losing their DACA status every single day since September.
And so people who are in school and enrolled in school don`t know if they are going to be able to sign up for the next semester. They are paying tuition. They are paying taxes. This is a real human problem.
And I think we`re forgetting that when we were talking only about the political calculation which is part of the this conversation as it always is. But I think we can`t forget that there is real human cost --
TUR: No.
MAXWELL: -- to delaying voting on a clean DACA.
TUR: There is also the bigger question of what in the world this president would support. Whether he wants any sort of deal on DACA or if he is more likely to support the more hard line issues that his White House might come up with. We`re going to talk about that a little bit later. And where in the world Donald Trump was this weekend?
MAXWELL: He`s taking photos --
TUR: He was taking photos certainly with the white hat. Zerlina, Caitlin, Noah, stay with us. Ahead, does a bipartisan deal on immigration really have a chance? And do we even know, again, what the president wants?
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TUR: Welcome back. We`re still following the latest developments on Capitol Hill on a day that started with the federal government closed. The House has just come to order for a shutdown vote now.
Let`s bring in Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Charlie Dent. Congressman, thanks so much for being here.
REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Thanks, Katy. Great to be with you.
TUR: So, should the Republicans demand that Paul Ryan do what Mitch McConnell did, which was promise that there would a debate on immigration, debate on DACA?
DENT: Well, there will have to be. First, it`s wonderful that this pointless shutdown has ended. There was no reason for this. It`s very clear to me that to get off of this treadmill of continuing resolution, we need a bipartisan, bicameral budget agreement.
We won`t get that agreement until there is some resolution on this DACA border security issue. So, at the end of the day, the Senate will have to pass a bipartisan DACA bill with over 60 votes that will come to the House and then the House will have to take it up or something similar to it, even if that means the majority of the majority of the House of Republicans may not be voting for.
So, we will have to take it up. It`s that simple. I would recommend to the leadership, which I already have, that we maybe adopt a queen of the hill strategy. Whichever bill gets the most votes is the one that passes. And that would be a bipartisan bill.
TUR: So waive the Hastert Rule and bring it to the floor even if a majority of the majority doesn`t support it? DENT: Correct. And by the way, there is really no such thing as the Hastert Rule. It is a guideline. You know, we always talk about the Hastert Rule and insists on its implementation until we don`t.
And I`ve been part of many House majorities that pass bills on budget agreements, omnibus, debt ceiling, hurricane relief where we did not have a majority of the majority. So, this is nothing new. So, I think we have to take this on and deal with it once and for all sooner rather than later. TUR: Give me a sense of what Paul Ryan wants to do. I mean, the Republican conference in the House is pretty divided on immigration. You have hardliners and in the freedom caucus who don`t want to see any sort of deal on immigration that allows anybody to stay here.
How do you get the Republicans on the same page enough to have an honest conversation and honest debate, a discussion that will lead to some sort of resolution for 800,000 kids or young people who are here in this country, who were brought here because their parents came over without their choice and are now awaiting someone to decide on what is going to happen to them in the future?
DENT: Well, Katy, first, we have to move beyond this idea that there will be a Republican only DACA bill getting passed in the House with 218 Republican votes. That simply isn`t going to happen. Even if it did, it will not pass the Senate. So to what end, so we have to move off of that position at some point and get serious about this negotiation.
Look, we have at least three or four bills. There is the Hurd-Aguilar proposal. There is the Graham-Durbin. There is the problem solvers proposal. Any one of these proposals to my view are completely acceptable and would secure at least 218 votes, probably closer to 300 votes on House floor.
So the pressure certainly will be on our House leadership, Republican leadership to take up a bill. I don`t see how we can resist, how the House Republican leadership cab resist a strong DACA bill with a big bipartisan vote in the Senate. TUR: The Senate might go their on way on this and not worry about what the president wants or does not want, but how much does the House need a guiding hand from Donald Trump? DENT: Well, certainly if the president endorsed this proposal, that would help matters considerably and drive up the vote tally. But we should take this up regardless of where the president is. We`re not sure where the president is and I say let`s send him a bill and make him decide.
From the political standpoint, it is more important for the House leadership, House Republican leadership to protect vulnerable members in swing districts who need the vote for a responsible humane DACA proposal. I`m less concerned about protecting the president`s political sensitivities here.
I am concerned about the Republicans in marginal seats like Coffman in Colorado, we have members in California and Florida, Carlos Cabello and others who really believe in this issue and frankly they need to do the vote. It`s the right thing to do. Also, it would help them politically. I`m more concerned about them than the president right now.
TUR: You know, you say you don`t know where the president stands on this issue. The White House has been asked this over and over again, where does he stand on the issue and what about the Republicans who say they don`t know? You are one of them. Mitch McConnell is another.
The White House says that there are four principles that the president has demanded all along. There is ending chain migration and the visa lottery program, funding for the border wall, and that will enable him to say yes to something like DACA. Is that what the White House wants or do you see some ambiguity there?
DENT: Well, the principles are fine, but at the end of the day, we vote on legislation, not principles. And so, you know, the (INAUDIBLE) but we`re talking about operational control of the border and border security. And again -- and I think as Republicans and even Democrats will acknowledge the problems with diversity, visa lottery, and even the family migration issue.
So those four principles are fine, but again it comes down to legislation. There will be bills on the floor of the Senate and hopefully the House, and that is what we need to hear from the White House on. What specific legislation are they willing to support? We can talk principles until we are blue in the face, but we don`t vote on the principles.
TUR: Ultimately, there are a lot of folks in the Republican Party in the House who are not going to move forward with this unless they get urged by the president. There are folks that have no desire to do this.
So, how do you, a moderate and to your fellow moderates in the House, Democrats and Republicans, find a way to force the issue if a majority doesn`t have the appetite for it and Paul Ryan is getting a lot of pressure from someone in the freedom caucus? DENT: Well, the pressure is going to be on the House leadership because I can guarantee you, there will be a number of us who represent the swing and marginal districts who are going to insist that we take this up. They were not going to be able to escape this debate and the way out and I suggested it again to leadership as I mentioned earlier, this queen of the hill strategy -- TUR: But if --
DENT: Let everybody put it all out there. Put it all out there.
TUR: Hold on. But why is that not true up until now? Why would that be true in the next three weeks and not true for the last three months?
DENT: Well, because we have a deadline of March 5th and I don`t think we should wait until March 5th --
TUR: So you had a deadline. You also had a deadline on Friday and that didn`t work.
DENT: Well, the shutdown was pointless. It was absurd. We all all understand that. The point is that we -- well, look, this agreement that Mitch McConnell has struck with Senator Schumer, I think we should honor it.
And I believe that our leadership is going to be under tremendous pressure to act from the American public and from a lot of House Republican members who do want to vote for this responsible, humane DACA "dreamer" bill.
We want to do this and I`m prepared. We have to marginalize those on the hard right who aren`t prepared to vote for anything. Let`s face it. Some of our members are not going to vote for a bill no matter what is in it. And we just have to -- we just have to -- we just have to blank out that noise.
The Democrats have to -- they have to just put aside the noise they are getting from their base right now and because they are going to be called surrendered and capitulators, just deal with it. This is easy. Just put the noise out and I think the center is going to have to drive this debate because we may lose some on the far left and the far right.
TUR: Congressman Charlie Dent. Congressman, always good to have you.
DENT: Katy, great to be with you again. Go eagles.
(LAUGHTER)
TUR: Go eagles. Much more on the votes and the government shutdown coming up. I don`t like football. Can I admit that?
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TUR: We`re still following the breaking news. The House is preparing to vote on the end of the government shutdown, to end the government shutdown. You are looking live at the House floor right now. Much more on this with tonight`s panel coming up.
(START VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The needs of American people. It is also about honoring the values that have made our nation --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TUR: Welcome back. Can Democrats turn anger from the base into action at the polls? As President Trump marked his first year in office this weekend, demonstrators flooded streets across the globe for the second year of women`s marches.
(START VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The message is really simple. Enough is enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m in support of women who I think are on the forefront of changing what is happening in Washington. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last year, people were depressed. This year, there is more hope and there is more action. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the current administration did anything, it woke people up. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got to stand up. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re not stopping. On November 6th, 2018, I think they`re really going to get a good dose of we`re not stopping.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TUR: The question here, what does this mean for 2018? And in the midst of a shutdown no less. That is ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TUR: It`s time for "The Lid." Zerlina Maxwell, Noah Rothman, Caitlin Huey- Burns. All of you guys back. Let`s talk about where the president has been. Art of the deal, deal maker, Donald Trump can make deals that no one else can make, sitting in the White House all weekend and not making any deals.
ROTHMAN: Yes, it depends on who you talk to, he kind of disappeared, but that might have been the key to move some blocks around on Capitol Hill. TUR: The key is to keep the president out of the negotiations?
ROTHMAN: I`m not exactly sure whether or not you`re negotiating with him directly or whether the key players in the White House are John Kelly and Marc Short, Stephen Miller, especially when it comes to immigration. Donald Trump seems to be the odd man out and when he gets involved, he seems to muddy the waters more than clarify. TUR: Are you saying the president is not a good negotiator?
ROTHMAN: I`m saying the president is not the last word in his administration which by the way is not a great thing. You don`t want an irrelevant president.
TUR: I don`t know. I mean, Donald Trump seems to disagree with his administration whenever he disagrees with his administration regardless of where their policy is.
Where does Donald Trump stand on this issue, though, and that`s a debate that a lot of folks are having, Republicans are having, Democrats are having it. I have a hard time believing that Donald Trump is this moderate who wants to come out and make his --
MAXWELL: Yes.
TUR: -- make a deal for "dreamers." This is a man who announced he was running for office by saying that Mexico was sending rapists over the border. He campaigned on building a wall. And those were the loudest roars that he got from the crowd, building a wall and putting Hillary Clinton in prison.
Here`s the thing. He loves the roar of the crowd. Who is to say that this is Stephen miller or John Kelly or the hardliners in his administration convincing him of this? Maybe that`s just where he stands.
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, REALCLEARPOLITICS: I thought that the ad that you played earlier in the show was in line with everything he campaigned on. It kind of reminded me of some of the ads that they played during the campaign.
And the Donald Trump that we saw in that kind of border meeting, that bipartisan meeting that he had on camera saying, I`ll sign anything, I want a bill with heart or bill of love, was not the Donald Trump that we know.
And so you also have a situation where Republicans are thinking, you know, we control all of Congress here. Why shouldn`t we push this president who campaigned on hard-line immigration policies to put forth a hard-line immigration proposal?
The fact that we got through this government funding issue today only to revisit this later, immigration is something that has bedeviled this Congress for a long time. Remember, we had bipartisan support for a comprehensive immigration bill that didn`t even make it to the House.
TUR: Yes.
HUEY-BURNS: They didn`t even take it up. And when you have a president like Trump or you don`t know where he`s going to be and you don`t know if he`s going to support you, are you going to go out on a limb and support something like this?
TUR: Just for our viewers, the House is voting right now on the end to the government shutdown. That`s what you`re seeing on the other half of your screen. How do you make sense of President Trump sitting in a bipartisan meeting a couple weeks ago now and looking at Dianne Feinstein and saying, yes, we can do a clean bill on dreamers?
MAXWELL: Well, what happens when the president doesn`t understand the underlying substance of policy. TUR: Do you think he`s actually listening to the conversation? I mean, very seriously --
MAXWELL: That`s a good point.
TUR: -- is he listening to the conversation being had?
MAXWELL: No. I think that he actually disagrees with whoever is speaking to him. I think that there are many examples that show that that`s true. And he doesn`t understand the nuance of the policy. So Donald Trump is somebody who wants to be liked by the people that he`s interacting with.
And so I think that particularly in that meeting which was a direct response to Michael Wolff`s book saying the president was unfit and allegations that he might have dementia or something like that, that was essentially them saying, no, the president is engaged, he can lead a meeting.
But what it really demonstrated is that he doesn`t know anything about the policy he`s talking about. And when you don`t understand the details of the policy, it`s a very weak negotiating position, which is why you saw him essentially agree to two deals that then John Kelly had to say wait, wait, wait, that`s not what we agreed.
And so it is a danger. I do agree, you don`t want a president that`s completely irrelevant in the negotiating process.
TUR: The Senate is saying they are basically going to go out this alone, try to find a bipartisan deal. I had Charlie Dent a moment ago, and he was saying that they`ve got to find a way to ignore the fringes, ignore the hardliners on both sides, ignore a good portion of the Republican Party who has no desire to make any sort of deal on immigration. What does that say?
ROTHMAN: Yes, well, particularly when it comes to DACA, and DACA is not "dreamers" by the way, right? Those two terms are two different populations. One is much bigger. "Dreamers" is much bigger. DACA recipients are smaller, easier to deal with.
What that says is I think that this is a proposition that is really easy to do, right? It is an 80-20 proposition. Most people including majority of Republicans and majority of Trump voters want to see a pathway to at least legal status for these DACA recipients.
They don`t want them to disappear back in the shadows. Even the Department of Homeland Security is saying we are not going to deport these people, you are crazy, we don`t want this to happen.
So there is appetite for some sort of a deal here. When it comes to the broader immigration population, illegal immigration population, there is no appetite for that, even among --
TUR: But is there an appetite to bring it up in the House if the president`s not on board with it? Or does that give enough cover to Paul Ryan? ROTHMAN: The president will be on board with it, if it`s popular. I think that`s where --
TUR: I am not so sure about that.
ROTHMAN: Really?
TUR: I am not so sure about that. I don`t know. His national default state is very hard line on immigration. And he hasn`t --
ROTHMAN: Not his default state in 2013 though. We had that report, which is part of the reason why never-Trump Republicans were saying, look, this guy`s playing you for a fool. He said to "dreamers" to their face in that meeting in Trump Tower, we want you to be citizens.
TUR: In 2013, he also went CPAC. I mean, this is a man who started off by running and saying that we need to build a wall, we need to keep Mexicans out. That`s essentially what he was saying, they`re bringing rapists over the border.
I just don`t know what he -- what his desire is, to focus on something even though it is popular. I`m completely out of time. They are yelling at me in my ear. Zerlina, Noah, Caitlin, thank you guys very much for being here. We will be right back.
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TUR: That`s all for tonight. Chuck will be back tomorrow with more "MTP Daily." "The Beat" with Ari Melber starts right now.
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