Atlanta Officer with Felony Murder TRANSCRIPT: 6/17/20, MSNBC Live

Guests: L.L. Cool J, Antonio Brown, Marilyn Mosby, Paul Butler, Eric Garcetti, Sherrod Brown, Brittany Packnett Cunningham, Matthew Heinz

L.L. COOL J, AMERICAN RAPPER: You know it`s time for our voices to be heard and we do into a classic hip hop now, on in a big way.

So that`s kind of the short of it, but people should definitely go to rockthebells.com and check out exactly what I`m talking about if I peaked your interest, because I think that is really, really important for our country and important for the culture. And we have to support each other. Do you know what I mean?

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: When you peaked our interest and you`ve been in our living room for decades. L.L. Cool J, thank you so much.

That does it for THE BEAT. Keep it right here on MSNBC.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I`m Joy Reid.

46 minutes, that`s how long 27-year-old Rayshard Brooks was detained by two white Atlanta police officers for non-crime for falling asleep in a Wendy`s drive-through, before one of them shot and killed him, 46 minutes in which he was not each told he was under arrest.

And today, in a dramatic press conference in Atlanta, a black District Attorney, Fulton County D.A. Paul L. Howard, Jr., laid down an historic marker in the history of American police accountability. The now former Atlanta officer who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks, will be charged with felony murder.

Garrett Rolfe, who shot Brooks twice in the back, faces 11 charges, which in addition to murder include aggravated assault for firing in a parking lot full of cars, leaving bullet holes in at least one of them, and violating his oath as a police officer. If convicted, Rolfe faces the possibility of life in prison, or even the death penalty.

Attorney Howard said, video after the shooting showed Rolfe kicked Brooks, kicked him. And that the second officer involved, Devin Brosnan, stood on Brooks` body as he lay on the ground dying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTY. PAUL HOWARD JR., FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We were able to conclude that based on the way that these officers conducted themselves while Mr. Brooks was lying there, that the demeanor of the officers immediately after the shooting did not reflect any fear or danger of Mr. Brooks. But their actions really reflected other kinds of emotions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Rolfe was fired the day after Brooks` killing. Brosnan was placed on administrative leave. He faces three charges, including aggravated assault. District Atty. Howard, said that Brosnan is cooperating with prosecutors and that his cooperation would help resolve the investigation more quickly. An attorney for Brooks` family said that cooperation is a first step toward change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. CHRIS STEWART, BROOKS FAMILY ATTORNEY: But even in dark times like this, you have to try and see the light. And the positivity of this situation is the courageousness of Officer Brosnan to step forward and say what happened was wrong. It is officers like that who change policing. And I know he`ll probably catch all kind of problems and hate and things like that, but it`s the courageousness of those type of officers that we love and support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms responded to the charges in a statement, saying, it is my hope that justice will be served not only for the family of Mr. Brooks, but for the victims and families of the other use of force cases waiting to be resolved by the district attorney. Prosecutors have asked both Rolfe and Brosnan to surrender to authorities by 6:00 P.M. tomorrow.

And I`m joined now by Atlanta City Councilman, Antonio Brown, also Marilyn Mosby, States Attorney for Baltimore and Paul Butler, former Federal Prosecutor. Thank you to all who are here.

And I want to first get the city councilman`s response to this, Antonio Brown. What do you make of what happened today? This was a very dramatic press conference. But also despite all that praise, the attorney for the second officer sort of walking back and then calling the prosecution premature.

ANTONIO BROWN (D) ATLANTA CITY COUNCIL: Yes. You know, it was extremely disheartening just to hear a lot of the details that a lot of us, including city council members and law enforcement individuals were unfamiliar with, like the fact that they were standing over him and kicked him. I mean, it`s just extremely disheartening.

I think District Attorney Paul Howard laid out a reasonable case for the charges. And for the people, we just want justice. And part of that justice is an actual conviction at this point.

REID: And do you -- are you confident in -- you know, part of what was so dramatic was the attorney, you know, the district attorney saying, hey, one of these officers is going to cooperate, that got kind of walked back. This is Devin Brosnan`s attorney, issued a statement on this idea of cooperating with prosecutors. He has not agreed to be a state`s witness or to testify in any court hearing or to plead guilty to any charges. The decision to initiate charges by the Fulton County D.A.`s office is irrational.

So after all that praise from other victims and witnesses, it`s not as cut and dry. Do you have confidence that this prosecution will actually result in convictions?

BROWN: You know, I would concur with what Mayor Bottoms said. You know, the district attorney`s office has several cases that`s on his desk, in which we`re still waiting for charges to be drawn on. So I would hope that for District Attorney Paul Howard to bring charges against these officers, that his case is solid enough to ensure that at the end of this, there is a conviction.

People are hurting right now. And the reality is, we`ve seen this time and time again where we have brought charges against officers. And at the end of the day, there is no conviction. So the people want to see justice, and part of that justice is conviction.

REID: Let me bring in Marilyn Mosby, because I can still remember being in Baltimore and hearing the cheers at Penn and North in the street when you announced -- when they heard over the radio, you`re announcement that there would be prosecutions in the case of Freddie Gray.

So you know how hard this is to do. You`ve already had a statement out from Garrett Rolfe`s attorney, about the shooting, saying Officer Rolfe, this is the officer who shot Mr. Brooks, heard a sound like a gunshot and saw a flash in front of him, fearing for his safety and the safety of the civilians around him, Officer Rolfe dropped his taser and fired his service weapon at the only portion of Mr. Brooks that presented to him, Mr. Brooks` back.

This is the fear for my life, they went for my gun. It`s the usual script that we hear in these cases. Having done this before, having listened to the case that was laid out by the attorney in Atlanta, how confident are you that a case like this could result in convictions?

MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY STATES ATTORNEY: So, first and foremost, I think that we have to give credit where credit is due. You cannot under estimate the power of a prosecutor to do their job, to apply that one standard of justice to all regardless of race, sex, religion, and occupation.

You have a black man, Paul L. Howard, in Atlanta, the south, who has made a decision to come against these officers in this particular case. And let me tell you, that comes with being mocked, that comes with being ridiculed, that becomes with the media, that comes with the Fraternal Order of Police, who have already been on the defense.

So I want to first and foremost give credit where credit is due and then understanding and recognizing that it goes beyond just the charges. There are going to be challenges in this particular case.

What he has that I did not have that I wish I had is video evidence. That`s going to be extremely important in this case. You have the actual killing at the time that it occurred, this man being shot in the back, right? So that`s definitive evidence, unlike we have in Freddie Gray.

We originally, and it sounded initially had officer cooperation. We did not have that in Freddie Gray, right? We had a balloon wall of silence, where officers -- we had to actually compel the officers from the highest state court to testify against one another.

What we have in this particular case is Paul Howard has outlined that he has done an independent investigation. That is incredibly important. Because what often happens is that police departments and any professional, when they`re investigating their own, they don`t ask the most pertinent questions. They will -- you should never be put in a position where you rely upon that profession to investigate and ultimately you`re making the decision.

REID: Yes, indeed. And, Paul Butler, let me bring you in. Your book, Chokehold, is a must read. I think everybody should be reading it to understand sort of the way that police operate. There are these magic words they can use, I feared for my life. They`ve already used that in the statement.

But let me played what Paul Howard, D.A. Paul Howard said about the prosecution of police officers and how frequently he`s had to do it in Fulton County. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD: Unfortunately, this marks the 40th prosecution of police officers for misconduct here in our county. And this is the ninth time that we`ve prosecuted a homicide case committed by a police officer. Eight of those cases involved black males, and one of those cases involved a black female.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: You know, and, Paul, this case particularly does remind me of the Walter Scott case, a rare case in which you did get a conviction. But that was at the federal level, after a hung jury, after all -- even a video didn`t convince a full jury that he should be convicted.

When you look at the case like this, you have heard how detailed was laid out today by Atty. Paul Howard, when you heard that kind of detail, including the fact that he had his back to him, that the taser fired over him, that there was no threat to the officers, that anybody can see that they -- he shot so blindly, that he hit other cars.

They said, well, he feared for the other people in the parking lot, but he shot into their cars. Does that kind of detail help a prosecution like this proceed? And what kind of a message do you think is being sent by not only this, but the Minneapolis case, the George Floyd case, the fact that the Walter Scott shooter is not in prison, will this change police behavior more than anything else?

PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: The message is there`s a new day when police officers used excessive force against African-Americans or any other citizens. The stakes in this case are extremely high. The murder conviction raises the stakes -- or the murder charge raises the stakes even higher. It`s one thing to charge murder, as the councilman acknowledges, it`s another thing to get a murder conviction.

Georgia police officers have killed about 182 people in the last five years. Prior to today, only one officer has been charged with murder, and that officer was not convicted of murder. The issue will be whether the officer`s use of deadly force was reasonable. This cop believed that he was about to be killed or seriously injured or someone else would be killed or seriously injured.

The evidence that the prosecution has is that Mr. Brooks threatened with a stun gun, a taser. That`s not a deadly weapon. Moreover, after the shooting, the officer checked Mr. Brooks and said, I got you. So that sounds like the shooting was more about punishment to Mr. Brooks for resisting than it was about saving someone`s life.

The defense, on the other hand, will say that the use of force was reasonable, and that a taser, when used by someone who is not properly trained, is a dangerous weapon.

REID: Yes. We will see what happens. We`ll definitely be keeping an eye on it. Councilman Antonio Brown, thank you very much for your time. Marilyn Mosby, thanks always for being here. Paul Butler, much appreciated.

And coming up, more on this historic moment in the Black Lives Matter movement, two police officers in two cities now charged with murder. Senator Sherrod Brown and L.A. Mayor Eric Garcetti join me next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Welcome back. The news out of Atlanta today marks a watershed moment in the history of American policing. Within just the last two weeks, we`ve seen former police officers charged in two states for killing African- American men.

In announcing felony murder and assault charges in Atlanta today, Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard made a forceful case for police reform, saying that, in his view as a prosecutor, there needs to be charges -- changes to the qualified immunity long enjoyed by American police officers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you think qualified immunity should be changed?

HOWARD: Well, I have put together a list of nine recommendations, and I believe recommendation number eight is that we ought to eliminate both sovereign immunity and qualified immunity for cases involving police shootings. We`ve got to do it.

And, you know, my barometer that says to me that something is wrong with that immunity, even our good friend, Clarence Thomas says, something is wrong with it. And when Clarence Thomas says that it`s bad, you know it`s probably pretty bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Ouch, when even Clarence Thomas is for it. In fact, Attorney Howard offered tougher, clearer policy recommendations today than the Republican senators, who lined up behind South Carolina Senator Tim Scott to offer their plan this morning. Much like Donald Trump`s executive order yesterday, the proposed Republican bill, which Mitch McConnell presented as the only game in town, would merely discourage the police tactics that have set off three weeks of nationwide, even worldwide protests, and possibly even a human rights inquiry by the United Nations, which heard from George Floyd`s brother today.

Unlike the Democratic bill in the House, the Scott Republican proposal does not ban chokeholds, it does not limit no-knock warrants, nor does it address qualified immunity. And while the streets are crying, defund police, the Republican bill provides more funding to the country`s 18,000 police departments, while the Democratic bill does not.

I`m joined now by Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti. And, Mayor Garcetti, for mayors, as you watch what`s happening not only in your streets, in the streets all over the country, really, all over the world, what do you feel would empower you to offer the people who are protesting something real? Do you think it`s time to give mayors more power over the police departments, to take some funding away, would that empower you as a mayor?

MAYOR ERIC GARCETTI (D-LOS ANGELES, CA): No question. I mean, we`re either going to meet this moment or we`re going to miss this moment. And we as a nation cannot miss this moment. This is not the way any of us would have wanted it to arrive, but we`ve been waiting for this moment for all of our lives. This is a moment for us to birth a true multiracial democracy. And that starts with accountability.

The elected representatives listening to the people who elect them say, what can we do to re-imagine public safety. So that, yes, the historic lows in crime we can keep, but not necessarily at the expense of being a black man who gets stopped just for looking wrong, or the most tragic situations like the execution of George Floyd.

We have to be able to say there`s too much we put on the shoulders of our police officers. What can we move away to social workers, mental health professionals and others to deal with conflict in our society, to confront homelessness and not just always ask for a police officer to answer those calls?

So this is a time to be transformative, to be big and bold, and not just to accept the status quo or weak tea, as somebody called it, some of the proposals that come out of the White House or the Republicans in the Senate.

REID: You know, Rodney King, it was 1992. It`s hard to believe that long ago, the streets erupted in your city over that situation, and now we`re here. Talk to us about just how it works functionally for you. If, for instance, you started to move some of the responsibilities out of your police department in your city in L.A., would that mean that, by default, you would have to have -- you would need fewer police officers? And how would the union, do you think, respond to the idea that maybe you don`t need so many patrol officers, maybe you can move some of that funding and some of that work to specialists who don`t have guns?

GARCETTI: I don`t think it`s a threat at all to police unions or to police officers. In fact, many times it`s the politicians that want to grow departments and say I`ve gone from 1,000 to 2,000 or 9,000 to 10,000 officers, when, really, what we want is public safety. For those existing officers who still have a job, who are trained well, who are part of the community, that`s not something threatening to them. It shouldn`t be threatening to a union.

Here in Los Angeles, this is a new work. We started almost a decade ago a gang reduction youth development program that took former gang members, peacemakers, interventionists, and shifted city funds to that. In fact, if we add a dollar to our police budget, we have to add at least a dollar to prevention and intervention.

And in those places where those folks go out there to be peacemakers, program our parks in the summer, go out there to deal with the cycle of violence, from domestic violence, to dating violence, to gang violence, we have seen reductions in crime of 40, 50 percent, countless lives saved.

So, when we say we have the lowest homicide rate that we have ever had in Los Angeles, it hasn`t just been the good work of police officers. It`s been the work of interventionists and prevention folks.

So I think every city that`s not doing that is missing part of the equation of how to truly make a community safe.

REID: All right, well, Mayor rMDNM_Garcetti, thank you very much. Really appreciate you being here.

GARCETTI: As always.

REID: And you have a great evening.

Well, after -- cheers.

After Senate Republicans today unveiled their long-awaited police reform proposal, which relies mainly on getting giving more money to police, grants and the usual talk about training, more training, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made it very clear that it does not go anywhere near far enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We don`t need a window dressing, toothless bill. We need to take action that is real.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Real change comes with accountability. As drafted, the Republican bill doesn`t provide it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: The dueling bills on police reform have now put the Democratic House and the Republican-led Senate on a collision course.

I`m joined now by Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio.

What did you make of that presentation today? You had all of these senators, including Mitch McConnell, lining up and saying words about things -- compassionate, sounded compassionate, but what they`re offering is really, like, studies and something about the black museum.

I wasn`t clear that they were offering any substantive policy change. Am I missing something?

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): Well, the bill offered by Senator Booker and Senator Harris and three or -- three dozen or so Senate Democrats -- I`m one of them -- is a serious proposal.

The proposal by Republicans is not serious. They`re not serious about this. They`re responding to news reports. But their bill, they put more money in police, but not what the mayor of Los Angeles just said, putting money into -- into various kinds of other public safety that will serve the public, nothing on anti-bias training, nothing on mental health, none of that. It`s just more money for police.

But the Democratic -- and the other thing Republican plan does, it does a lot of data collection. It`s going to produce more studies, as if we don`t know what has happened on the streets of our country...

REID: Right. Yes.

BROWN: ... as if the pandemic, coupled with so much else, hasn`t shown us racial disparities up close, finally.

REID: You know, it feels like Republicans, in a lot of ways, are just not understanding how severe and how serious this moment is.

Here`s George Floyd`s brother, Philonise Floyd, who testified before the U.N. Human Rights Council via video today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILONISE FLOYD, BROTHER OF GEORGE FLOYD: You in the United Nations are your brothers and sisters` keepers in America. And you have the power to help us get justice for my brother George Floyd.

I hope that you will consider establishing an independent commission of inquiry to investigate police killings of black people in America and the violence used against peaceful protesters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: And there was international condemnation of the United States as a human rights violator at this meeting, which puts us in a strange position in the world.

 Are the Democrats in the United States Senate prepared to fight for the bill you just talked about, the Cory Booker version, the Kamala Harris version, and to ignore the Tim Scott bill?

BROWN: Well, I think we probably don`t ignore it. We contrast and show, where ban police choke holds, they do a study or collect data.

We do anti-bias training. They just pour more money into police departments to continue more of the same. We say no to military equipment. So, we make that contrast. But, yes, we fight.

We had a caucus today, a discussion about it, about 20 of us. And we`re ready for this. And we`re going to make that contrast and show we`re clearly on the side of most Americans in this.

REID: Well, and, Senator, the reason I ask you that is, there`s always the fear, because Democrats actually believe in legislating and believe in government, that Mitch McConnell will say, this is the only game in town, you get this bill or no bill, you can amend this bill or go home, while he does more judges.

And Democrats say, OK, fine, we will pass it, and then it becomes a must- pass bill in the House. And then the bill that the House members have worked on, which is a much more robust bill than what the Senate -- than what the Republicans the Senate are offering, becomes the bill. And we`re back to where we have been with even the CARES Act, where it something that then you`re stuck with and have to try to fix belatedly.

So, can you assure those who are listening today that Democrats in the United States Senate will not allow the McConnell bill to go through?

BROWN: Well, we -- if it`s 60 votes, we will not -- will not allow it to go through it. He passes it in a party-line vote with a 50 threshold, we can`t stop it.

But we will fight, and we will let people know we`re fighting. And we know whose side we`re on as a party. The civil rights groups, pretty much all the civil rights groups support our bill and will help us in this fight via programs like yours, highlight the difference between the Republican bill or, even worse, the president`s proposal, and what we`re fighting for.

We will make that fight. I can`t guarantee we win, because there`s only 47 Democratic senators. But I can guarantee we make that fight.

REID: Sure.

BROWN: And the public will know we make that fight.

REID: Let me let you listen to your colleague Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina today. This was his tack. I`m not sure what this has to do with the police reform, but here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): To my colleagues on the other side who said, we talk too much, we don`t need to listen anymore, where were you for the eight years of the Obama administration?

I`m getting a little tired of being lectured to by my Democratic colleagues that all this is Trump`s fault. You had eight years. No attempts to ban choke holds, no attempts to do any of the things that we all agree we need to do now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Now, given that is on the -- what`s on the other side, and it`s a weird tack to take, when he`s actually got a contested race in November to just go, Obama bad, if that`s what you`re facing on the other side, would Democrats simply be better off to fold your hands and wait for January 21, 2021, to ban -- to pass police reform?

BROWN: Well, we don`t -- we don`t just fold our cards or sit on our hands and wait.

We make for fight. We try to win. We enlist the public. We know the public, in large part because of all the things that have happened in the last few months -- the pandemic has been the great revealer of racial disparities, the video -- so many of these murders on -- now on video, so -- such a diverse activist generation of young people, and a racist president, a president who almost brags about his racism.

That, to me, says, the public will be overwhelmingly for us, which, sometimes, Congress surprises people by doing the right thing because of public -- because of the public energy behind our efforts.

And that`s what we will fight for. And no guarantees, but, if we lose, we will come back in January with a new president and a new Senate, and we accomplish then many things we`re not able to accomplish.

What -- what Lindsey Graham said about the last eight years, it was Mitch McConnell blocking one thing after another after another, and then Trump undoing the executive orders that President -- and all kinds of rules that President Obama had put forward.

So, it`s not even worth discussing what Senator Graham just said.

REID: Yes. I am sure his opponent in the South Carolina United States Senate race will discuss it a whole lot.

Thank you, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio.

BROWN: Great. Thanks.

REID: And still ahead: more on today`s stunning developments in Atlanta -- cheers -- and where we go from here.

We`re back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Welcome back.

On this day that charges were announced against two Atlanta police officers in the killing of Rayshard Brooks, some states and localities continue to respond to the outcry in the streets with changes and actions that match the times and the level of outrage, but not Donald Trump, and not some of his allies, who seem more interested in discussing change -- in discussing change than in continuing -- and then -- and continuing the ugly, tired strategy of demonizing the first black president, but not actually making change.

Just yesterday, Trump lied about Barack Obama never doing a thing to address the issue of police violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: President Obama and Vice President Biden never even tried to fix this during their eight-year period. The reason they didn`t try is because they had no idea how to do it. And it is a complex situation.

This is a big, big step, a step that hasn`t been taken before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: That sounded exactly like Lindsey Graham.

"The Washington Post" fact-checker deemed that claim to be false. In fact, according to "The Post," when the Trump administration came in, they rolled back the measures the Obama administration put in place, meaning those measures had to have existed in the first place.

For more, I`m joined by Brittany Packnett Cunningham, activist and former fellow at the Harvard Institute of Politics. She was an appointed member of the Ferguson Commission and a member of President Obama`s Task Force on 21st Century Policing.

Brittany, always great to talk to you.

So, both Lindsey Graham and Donald Trump are pretending that there were never any -- anything put in place to do police reform.

I want to put up some of these Obama era reforms. Talk -- while you talk a little bit about what the commission entailed and what was pushed for in that commission.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM, CO-FOUNDER, CAMPAIGN ZERO: Joy, I`m sorry you even have to spend your time like this.

There are better things to talk about than a president...

REID: It`s like a fact-check a day.

(LAUGHTER)

PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: ... than a president who continues to lie, all because he is cowering in the shadow of a competent black man, and he has no intention of actually running the country that he swore to protect, according to the Constitution.

Look, I was a part of that commission. We traveled all around the country. And we heard from activists, community leaders and organizers and, yes, law enforcement, families, students, parents about precisely what it was that they wanted to see be changed in their communities about policing.

I sat in the Oval Office on December 1, 2014. And Donald Trump knows that we sat in the office having the conversation with President Obama about what we were seeing on the streets of Ferguson and Baltimore and more, because he tweeted about it on that very day.

And, Joy, there is always a tweet. Like you said, if the Obama administration did not take any steps to actually eradicate police violence in this country and stop police brutality all across this nation, then there would have been nothing for Donald Trump to undo.

But, in 2017, he undid the Obama era rule that restricted the amount of military equipment that was being given to local police departments. And we know that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III actually limited the consent decrees that the Obama administration used so much to make sure that cities that were consistently harming black people through their police departments were actually held accountable, and that those patterns and practices were investigated.

This was never about the truth.

REID: Yes.

PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: This is always about him passing the buck.

And there`s clearly still more work to do. But we could get a lot more of it done if he would actually start to take responsibility for the job that he has.

REID: Yes, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, named for not just one Confederate general, but two. Boy, that`s hard to come by.

I want to put up some of these -- the things that existed that Donald Trump claims didn`t exist and that Lindsey Graham pretends didn`t exist. There was the Task Force -- the Task Force on 21st Century Policing, in addition, as you mentioned, banning the military from selling surplus equipment to police, a policy reversed by Trump in 2017, 25 investigations into police misconduct.

Trump has opened -- under Trump, there`s been one. And there are these voluntary collaborative reforms that assessed police departments and made recommendations for change. Trump has nixed that too.

But one of the things that I want to focus on is that fourth one, the 14 court-ordered consent decrees to overhaul police departments. Trump has signed two, but he`s -- they walked back those consent decrees.

How important is it that police departments get investigated as part of the mix of reform?

PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: I mean, I want to be really clear here.

We`re talking about measures of accountability. And, ultimately, what we are hearing from the ground and from the grassroots is that people want more than just accountability. They want justice. We have even heard that from Obama administration officials and Mr. Obama himself, that what may have applied in 2015, even coming out of that task force report that I helped work on, may not apply in 2020, because there is simply more to be done.

We heard from that Department of Justice in the Obama era that they wanted to see, after they were done, a lowering of the standard that it would take to actually prosecute police officers at the federal level for violating civil rights.

So, these consent decrees are important, but they stand on the side of accountability. And we can`t even seem to get that out of the Trump administration.

REID: Yes.

PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: We know that there are cities all across this country, from Ferguson to Baltimore, that have a pattern and practice of engaging in this way.

And if they can`t hold police departments accountable across the country, there`s no incentive for those police departments to change.

REID: Yes.

How amazing is it that local districts attorney are at this moment acting more like the attorney general than the attorney general of the United States? It`s a pretty remarkable place to be.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham, always, thank you very much. (AUDIO GAP) with you.

And still ahead: Several states are reporting a rise in coronavirus cases, but Donald Trump, he`s moving right along, holding a campaign rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, this weekend, a city that`s seen a spike in cases and hospitalizations.

Much more on that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: The number of hospitalizations, lowest level since we started. Seventeen deaths in the state of New York, 17. Lowest number since we started.

We did about 60,000 tests yesterday. The number who tested positive, less than 1 percent. That is the lowest percentage of positive that we have had since we have started.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Welcome back.

Well, that was New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announcing that New York City, once the epicenter is on its track to enter its next phase of reopening. But as New York is seeing a decline in new cases, a number of other states are facing spikes. Yesterday, at least six states saw their largest number -- their largest one-day increase in new cases since the pandemic began.

And the nation`s top infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci is responding to Vice President Mike Pence`s claim that fear of a second wave are overblown. In an interview with "The Daily Beast", Fauci said, quote, I don`t like to talk about a second wave right now because we haven`t gotten out of our first wave.

Fauci also voiced his concerns with Trump`s upcoming rally in Oklahoma this weekend, and he`s not alone. Tulsa`s Republican mayor is also voicing his concerns, and that is coming up next.

(COMEMRCIAL BREAK)

REID: Welcome back.

Donald Trump will be reclaiming the precious, and holding his first campaign rally in months this weekend in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Notably no longer on Juneteenth because they backed down. But health experts are voicing concern to such a large gathering for such a high risk of spreading the virus.

"The Daily Beast" spoke with Dr. Fauci, writing he didn`t sugarcoat his anxiety about his boss, President Donald Trump, moving forward with plans to hold large-scale events, including in cities with new or recurring outbreaks, such as Tulsa, Oklahoma and Phoenix, Arizona.

Asked if he would personally attend, Fauci said, no, I`m in a high-risk category. Personally, I would not. Of course not.

Tulsa`s Republican mayor also voicing his concerns of the president`s plans. Quote: I`m not positive everything is safe. Any rational person looking at any large grouping of people would have concerns about this weekend.

For more, I`m joined by Dr. Matt Heinz, internist with Tucson Medical Center in Arizona. I`ll just start by asking you, Dr. Heinz, would you personally attend an event such as the ones that are planned both in Arizona and in Oklahoma?

(CROSSTALK)

DR. MATTHEW HEINZ, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES OFFICIAL: Well, thank you for having me. Definitely not.

REID: And what are the risks entailed? Because, you know, what are the risks? Just explain to us what the risks are. We know that`s no social distancing, Trump is anti-mask.

Is it -- is it the concentration of bodies that makes it risky, or is it the masks or is it cumulative?

HEINZ: So, it`s actually a combination of things. But any time you have a lot of people getting in close proximity of the virus, which is conveyed by water vapor. We exhale water vapor every time we breathe in and out.

So, that water vapor transmits the virus from person to person. And if you`re within six feet, you`re breathing in a little bit of the water vapor that person next to you is exhaling every time you breathe. So, think about, you have 20, 25 people exhaling their water vapor basically into you. You have a pretty high chance of getting coronavirus from some of those folks around.

And there`s not great circulation in a lot of these big buildings, especially with all the people crammed in there. So, it`s really an ideal situation if you`re the coronavirus.

REID: And so, Arizona we know where you are, obviously, ICU beds in use is at 83 percent, the capacity 83 percent, and it`s the highest number for Arizona since the pandemic began. So, obviously, there`s a lot of challenges that we`re seeing in Arizona right now.

The mayor of Tucson tweeted out that she will begin requiring masks to be worn in public, which it`s shocking that she hasn`t done that up to now, saying she directed the city attorney to work on amending our local emergency proclamation to require wearing masks in public. Public health experts agree it`s time to mask up Tucson.

Does it surprise you that this far into a pandemic of this magnitude, of this death count, that only now is the mayor -- the mayor of a major city starting to require masks in public?

HEINZ: So Arizona is an interesting place, and our governor reopened the state May 15th and 21 days later we have record levels of cases every single day, and he still says it has nothing to do with it. He also, in his emergency declaration, basically said to every political subdivision, every county and every municipality, including Tucson, and you all can`t do anything other than what I say.

So in his declaration, he preempted the cities, he preempted the counties from really trying to do anything and taking anything, you know, take any control whatsoever. So I`m glad that Mayor Romero is doing this, and even though the governor doesn`t want her to.

REID: And we have seen not only is the ICU bed capacity being gobbled up, looking at the curve in Arizona, it shows a sharp rise in new cases. And this comes after Memorial Day weekend when apparently things got a lot worse. Yet, you have Donald Trump pushing, pushing officials, Republican officials to re-open faster.

Is it weird for you that it looks like we`re emerging into a pandemic? We`re just being in a state where Trump as influence, in a sense makes you more at risk. I`ve never heard of a political pandemic before, but it feels like we`re getting one.

HEINZ: It really shouldn`t be, but you are absolutely right. The numbers don`t lie. The science facts, they are fairly meaningful and the virus is doing exactly what it is programmed to by nature. It makes more of itself and it uses us to do that.

And if people aren`t wearing masks, if they aren`t taking it seriously, staying home and socially distancing, we will see that number go up and up and up. And it`s time for the state of Arizona to lock it down, require masks everywhere, not just in Tucson but every part of the state and do it now.

REID: You know, I think of viruses as being sort of layman`s terms as being like the alien in the movie "Aliens" and all the sequels. It just wants to reproduce itself through humans and it`s violent --

HEINZ: Yes.

REID: -- and it violently kills some of the humans to reproduce itself. If you think of it like that, and what do the humans do in "Aliens"? They hide, they hide, they stay inside and stay away from it.

It seems like it would be pretty simple. Is there a messaging -- is there a way of doing the messaging on this pandemic that can get around the partisanship that is made, you know, a lot of Trump followers say, I refuse to wear a mask. I refuse to stay indoors?

HEINZ: I think so. When people understand that these masks, they don`t protect you. They don`t protect the wearer. You put this on, it`s a patriotic gesture. It is a gesture for your neighbors, for your community, for your family.

You wear a mask because it prevents 90 percent or more from getting out and about. So, you -- all of us need to put masks on so we massively decrease the ability of this virus to get around. And doing that saves lives. Not doing that and knowing that it will not save lives, that`s a problem. These are -- you`re harming people in your community, and we can`t have that. So we know what we need to do.

REID: Yeah. We already know the information. People just need to accept it and do it.

Dr. Matt Heinz, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you being here.

HEINZ: Thank you.

REID: And up next on this tragic anniversary -- cheers -- on this tragic, the date of the tragic anniversary, a tale of fast food and policing. You will not want to miss it.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLICE OFFICER: I`m too nervous to take a meal from McDonald`s because I can`t see it being made. I don`t know what`s going on with people nowadays, but please just give us a break.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Here is a tale of fast food and policing. That video of a weepy police officer crying in frustration over not receiving the correct breakfast order at a McDonald`s drive through went viral today. With law enforcement boosters saying it showed how unappreciated and frightened police officers feel these days, with mean protesters marching and yelling about police killings of black people for the third straight week worldwide.

But needless to say, there are worse things that can happen in a fast food parking lot than not getting your Egg McMuffin like falling aslope in your car while black and getting shot in the back by police when they arrived because he ran after a 46-minute interrogation as happened to Rayshard Brooks.

Like the eerie stills of that former officer killing George Floyd, this image shown at the press conference today by Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard showing the officer who shot Mr. Brooks kick his body while he lay dying on the ground after reportedly uttering, "I got him," while a second officer stood on the dying man will live in infamy in the story of American policing.

It is the visual proof of what black people have been crying out is the dehumanizing attitude toward our lives and toward our bodies that too many officers, mostly white, walk around with, while armed with a gun and a license to kill.

So, Officer Lady, excuse us if we find it hard to view your faulty breakfast as a crisis. And perhaps, if you are that easily freaked out, maybe you shouldn`t be allowed to carry a gun.

Meanwhile, the fear our Officer Karen was articulating seems related to an ugly accusation made by a police union this week that fast food workers at a shake shack location actually poisoned a group of officers with bleach, which turned out to be completely untrue. But that dangerous libel on low- paid workers shows you what too often we are dealing with when it comes to law enforcement, the rush to judgment that low wage people and non-white people are probably criminals.

Meanwhile, today is the five-year anniversary of the massacre of nine black parishioners inside Mother Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina, a case in which we also reminded of how differently interactions with law enforcement can go down if you`re white, even if you`re a multiple murderer, because while Rayshard Brooks was executed in a Wendy`s parking lot for daring to run away after being detained for no reason for nearly an hour and for taking a Taser to try and free himself from officers, he clearly had every reason to fear.

Dylann Roof who again had already gun massacred nine people in Charleston, the racist who glorified apartheid era South Africa, he was not just detained peacefully. He was fed a nice Burger King lunch by the arresting officers, which makes what South Carolina Senator Tim Scott said today, even after acknowledging the grim anniversary at a press conference, announcing whatever that was because it`s not reform, so ahistoric and so strange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): I don`t know how to tell people that the nation is not racist. I`ll try again. We are not a racist country.

(END VIDEOI CLIP)

REID: That`s our show for tonight.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" is up next.

  THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END