IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Father and son charged TRANSCRIPT: 5/8/20, MSNBC Live

Guests: Ben White, Sara Eisen, Kate Gallego, Noah Rothman, Tammy Baldwin

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: -- and how it affects different people whether we have fair enforcement.

That`s a final thought from us. Thank you as always for watching THE BEAT. I hope you enjoyed everything tonight, including a great time Congressman Jeffries, Fat Joe and, of course, Bill Kristol.

I`m Ari Melber. I`ll see you back here on Monday at 6:00 P.M. Eastern. Keep it right here on MSNBC.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Steve Kornacki.

Today, another devastating day for Americans with new numbers painting a dire picture of the toll that this pandemic has taken and continues to take.

On the health front, it was more of what we`ve been seeing for a while now. 1.2 million people have now tested positive in the United States and 77,000 have died. That number continuing to rise.

On the economic front, today is something that`s been anticipated for a long time is now here, just absolutely catastrophic numbers. The Department of Labor announced today that the unemployment rate shot up to 14.7 percent in April. That means that 20 million jobs vanished in what has become the worst monthly loss on record. This is something this country has not seen since the days of the great depression.

President Trump reacted to that news this morning.



DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, it`s totally expected. There is no surprise. Everybody knows that. Somebody said, oh, look at this. Well, even the Democrats aren`t blaming me for that. But what I can do is I`ll bring it back.


KORNACKI: In that same interview, President Trump said the death toll could reach up to 95,000. In the face of this, he and his team tried to remain positive.


LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: As awful and heartbreaking as the jobs losses for the month of April reported today, much of that, three-quarters of that, will be temporary layoffs. So that, you know, could be a glimmer of hope. I don`t want to downplay the hardship. But it could be a glimmer.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I can tell you there is a lot of pent-up demand in this country. There is a lot of people who do want to go out to restaurants, who do want to go out to movies, who do want to go back to their jobs. We see it and hear about it every day. I don`t think that that`s a problem. I think people can trust that we have a president who wants to reopen and reopen safely.

There`s no reason to be concerned because we have a president who always looks at the data.


KORNACKI: And, according to Ben White of Politico, who will join us momentarily, he says a person close to the president is reporting that the White House is in denial about the true scale of the damage the pandemic has done to the economy. Trump`s Democratic challenger, former Vice President Joe Biden, delivered his own economic message today and took a shot at the president`s handling of the crisis.


JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Trump loves to crow about the great economy he built but when the crisis hit, it became clear who the economy had built -- was built to serve, not the workers, not the middle class, not families. Donald Trump`s main measure of economic progress is the state of the stock market. It`s the only metric he values and it`s the only lens through which he sees our economy.

He irresponsibly downplayed and delayed action on the virus to protect the Dow Jones average, the choice that has so far cost tens of thousands of American lives and millions of jobs.


KORNACKI: Economists at Stanford and University of Chicago estimate that 42 percent of pandemic-induced layoffs will end up being permanent.

Meanwhile, as President Trump told reporters today, in his view, the virus would go away with or without a vaccine. But we learn that the coronavirus has, again, penetrated the White House. Katie Miller, who is a spokesperson for Vice President Mike Pence and also wife of Stephen Miller, who is a top adviser to the president, she confirms that she tested positive for coronavirus today. And this is the second confirmed case in the White House this week. One of President Trump`s valets, who is a member of the military, had tested positive earlier in the week.

Joining me now, Jonathan Lemire, White House Reporter for the Associated Press. Jon, thank you for joining us. Let me start on that. Two positive cases now, coronavirus cases, sort of in the circle of the president within the White House. What do we know? Are these related at all? What do we know about what is he happening within the White House in response to this?

JONATHAN LEMIRE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Steve, it`s unclear if they`re related but it just goes to show you the reach of this virus. The White House right now probably is the most protected place and fortified place in the nation from this virus from positive cases getting around. Remember, everyone there who -- the president and vice president are being tested every day. Senior White House staff, tested every day. If you are coming in close contact with the president, you`re being tested.

Now, some of the vice president`s staff who work elsewhere on the complex, at the Eisenhower building, it`s not every day but it`s every couple of days. Today, after Ms. Miller`s positive test, she was scheduled to travel with the vice president to Iowa today. She was not on that plane. Six people who had contact with her were also pulled from the plane.

And it goes to show, in some ways, that the penetration of this virus can even burst the sort of bubble of unreality that the White House has sort of created there, because they have access to test, frankly, that the rest of the country doesn`t have.

And the president is trying to instill this sense of confidence, right? He`s resumed travel. He went to Arizona earlier in the week. He`s talking about reopening the economy, trying to push states to ease their lockdowns, because he believes that, especially in light of today`s terrible job numbers, that trying to restart the economy is his best bet to winning a second term. And he is showing images of being safe. He won`t wear a mask. His senior aides don`t wear masks. He`s afraid of how it will make him look. He thinks that looks -- he makes him look weak or he looks like his afraid of the virus, as supposed to focusing on the economy.

But, yet, not only do not -- Americans don`t have access to those tests and, therefore, it`s harder for them to feel secure being out in the world, reentering the world, but even in a place where there are testing, we`re still seeing the virus penetrate.

KORNACKI: We also have some new reporting tonight, Jon, from the Associated Press, and you, of course, with the Associated Press. And they are reporting on that CDC guidance that was shelved by the White House task force. Remember, this making news in the last 24 hours. The A.P. now reporting on -- they had reported on Thursday, I should say, that the 17- page document had been put on hold.

And, tonight, the AP. has reporting on new emails that suggest the decision came from high levels of the White House. Writing this, quote, the A.P. obtained a copy Friday of the full document. That version is a more universal series of phased guidelines.

White House Spokeswoman Kayleigh McEnany said in Friday, that the documents had not been approved by the CDC director, Robert Redfield. The new emails, however, showed that Redfield cleared the guidance. The email show that staffer at CDC was told, quote, we would not even be allowed to post the decision trees. We had the team, exhausted as they are, stand down. The CDC`s guidance was shelved until May 7th.

So, Jon, take us through this. What we are talking about here are CDC guidelines, specific guidelines for states to begin phased re-openings. The story a day ago had been, the White House decided -- the White House task force, I should say, decided to send these back for revisions. So the new reporting is that this came from high up in the White House. What does that mean high up? Does that go all the way to the top? What was the reporting here?

LEMIRE: Well, first, credit to my colleagues at the A.P. for a series of terrific stories bringing this to light. Yes, the documents are meant they provide very detailed instructions to reopen everything, from childcare centers to government offices, giving suggestions for schools.

And the new White House press secretary, you may recall, in the last week or so, vowed to never lie from the podium. Well, that`s being tested now. At very least, perhaps she was mistaken, because according to our reporting, indeed, this didn`t read this document, it did reach the White House, the head of the CDC had a look at it. We know that at least -- though it`s not clear who officially -- who in the president`s inner circle decided to put this on the shelf.

We know that in the emails, some of the medical professionals, like Dr. Birx and Dr. Fauci were copied on it. We know that Jared Kushner, the president`s influential son-in-law, who has played a large role in the task force and who, in the president`s inner circle, has been really pushing for the focus on the country reopening, we know he was involved, chief of staff, as well.

So it certainly defies belief that it was just sort of a happenstance that these things were not enacted. This appears to be effort to put them away, to let that state towards another step to put the onus on the states, not the federal government, not the CDC on the states, to forge forward with the reopening plans, which president is anxious for them to do as soon as possible.

KORNACKI: All right, Jonathan Lemire from the Associated Press, thank you for joining us tonight. I appreciate that.

And in anticipation of today`s Labor Department report that we were talking about with all that bad news and anticipation of it, President Trump repeatedly argued this week that the economy will bounce back quickly from all of this economic devastation.


TRUMP: We`re going to do it again, and that`s what we`re starting. And I view these last couple of days as the beginning. We`re going to build the greatest economy in the world again and it`s going to happen pretty fast.

I created the greatest economy in history, the greatest employment numbers, the greatest success in history. And then, one day, we had to close it down. We are going to beat those numbers and I`m going to beat them soon.

I`m viewing the third quarter as being a very important quarter, because it`s -- as I said, that will be a transition. I think you could almost say a transition into greatness because I think next year, we`re going to have phenomenal year, a phenomenal year economically.


KORNACKI: And joining me now, Ben White, Chief Economic Correspondent for Politico and Sara Eisen, the Co-Anchor of CNBC`s Squawk on the Street. Thanks to both of you for being with us, great people to be talking to in this night.

Ben, let me just start with you. From the folks you are talking to here, we say that this jobs report, this unemployment number was anticipated for a long time. It was preceded by weeks of record-shattering unemployment claims numbers. So we knew this was going to be bad. And this is grizzly. The folks you`re talking to. Do they think it`s going to continue to get worse from here? And, if so, how much worse sort of they think this is as low as it gets?

BEN WHITE, CHIEF ECONOMIC CORRESPONDENT, "POLITICO": Yes. And, Steve, this is probably the worst jobs report that we`ll get. We`re not going to get another one, hopefully, God willing that is 20 million plus job lost. We`re still going to get at least one more bad one next month, maybe another 10 million before we start turning around.

There is still a lot of unemployment claims and layoffs that didn`t get captured by this report, but it is historic and devastating and understates the true picture of unemployment, that 14.7 number that we`ve referenced, really when you include people who were laid-off but not counted as unemployed because they weren`t looking for work because you can`t look for work because of the virus. The number is closer to 23 percent.

So we`re in a massive hole here. We`re going to dig a little bit deeper. And then it`s going to take us a really long time to get out of it. All of Trump`s talk about rapid, quick rebounds, glorious years next year is essentially nonsense.

KORNACKI: Yes. Sara, so let me ask you to pick up on that. We had so much talk here about the supposed -- the possibility of a V-shaped recovery. That`s the dream scenario, right, where it goes down sharply and then goes up sharply. What Ben is alluding to there, the forecast right now from the experts don`t seem to be too optimistic for that.

Let me ask you again, as somebody who knows a lot more than me what they`re talking about this and talks to people who are very smart, is what are the range of possibilities you`re hearing from the experts here in terms of best case, how quickly could we rebound and worst case?

SARA EISEN, CNBC ANCHOR, "CLOSING BELL": It`s hard to find an economist, Steve, that will tell you that we are going to have a V-shaped recovery. I think the most common answer you`re getting right now from those who have studied the data and have looked at historical patterns is that it`s going to be a partial recovery and some sectors and some industries are going to recover a lot faster than others.

If you think about industries like travel, like the airlines, like the hotels, that could take a lot longer to come back. Even restaurants right now, they are starting to reopen in a few states around the country are doing so at a much smaller capacity, where they are evenly allowing 20 to 30 percent based on government rules, of people to be in their restaurants. By definition, that means it`s going to be a slow recovery because they`re just not operating at full capacity.

There will be other industries that could respond further, when you think about -- could respond faster than some of those slow industries. For instance, construction and manufacturing, those are some industries where you can socially distance, where you can get those factories back up and running. The only question is, is there going to be demand for the products? This is a consumer-driven economy.

And I think the biggest question mark out there as to the shape of this recovery is are consumers going to have this pent-up demand that we hear about from President Trump and the White House to spend when you have unemployment numbers rising, wages obviously falling, people scared to go out to retail and restaurants. And that`s going to be key. What kind of bounce are you going to get in terms of consumer appetite?

And that`s also why, Steve, what so critical to answering these questions about what the recovery looks like, are we going to get a vaccine and are we going to get a real treatment, that gives people confidence to come back, and gives businesses` confidence to rehire? That`s why the market, the stock-market, has been so focused on these kinds of developments.

KORNACKI: Yes, I want to ask you about that in a second. But, Ben, I just want to follow up on something we mentioned too early in the show. Your reporting here, saying that you`re hearing inside the White House that there is denial on what is actually happening here, economically. Take us through what you`re hearing there.

WHITE: Yes. This came from a former senior adviser to the president who I was talking to about these numbers, both before and after they came out. And his words were, they`re in denial about how awful the numbers are and how difficult it will be to come back.

Not everyone in the White House is in denial. I don`t think Larry Kudlow is or Kevin Hassett is. But the president and some people around him do have this idea that you can flip a switch and that employers will rehire en masse, and that people will feel comfortable, as Sara very aptly pointed out, coming back to work and employers will be ready to bring them back. That`s simply not the case in a lot of areas.

And all the polling data suggests that people don`t feel safe, they don`t feel comfortable. They are worried about getting their jobs back but they are more worried about getting the virus and getting their friends and family members sick.

Some economists I`ve talked to have said, like 25 percent of these jobs we`ve lost are simply never coming back, the businesses that have shut down and will not reopen. And other companies who have realized they can operate with fewer workers, as Sara said, don`t know what demand is going to be so will be very reluctant to hire.

But there is a sense in the White House, that, hey, boom, we`re going to get good third quarter, fourth quarter numbers, we`re back to business. Technically, they`re right that the third and fourth quarter will look better than the second but that`s because they`re coming back from a cataclysmic drop of 40 percent. We`re still going to be shrinking overall.

So there is a lack of understanding, I think, at the highest in the White House of just how giant and devastating a blow this is and how hard it will be to recover from.

KORNACKI: Sara, you mentioned something there too that I want to just drilled on you with, because there does seem to be this disconnect between these jobs numbers, unemployment rate and the stock market. Because I look up and the stock market is not cratering like, as a layman, I might expect it would. Let me ask you this. Does that indicate that Wall Street is more optimistic about long-term, what`s going to be happening here or does that illustrate that Wall Street is just operating in almost a different world?

EISEN: Well, there are few other factors that are impacting the markets and you can`t just think the market is the economy. But you`re right, there is a major disconnect and that only grew more stark this week, where you had the Nasdaq, which is the index that closely tracks all the tech stocks, actually go positive for the year this week in 2020. It`s made up most of its losses that we saw in March when there was this big panic about the pandemic in the economy.

And there are a few key reasons why. Number one, Steve, so much of the market right now is dominated by mega cap technology stocks. I`m talking about Amazon, Facebook, Google-parent Alphabet, Netflix. These companies are weathering the storm pretty well, and they just actually posted their results, their earnings, for the period, which shows that a lot of them -- Microsoft I would include that, are immune from the crisis and the economic pain that so many other businesses, most other businesses in this country are facing. So those stocks go up. And the entire market goes up because they`re so heavily weighted. They`re so ginormous in terms of the relative market.

There is also the Federal Reserve pumping trillions of dollars of stimulus into the system to try to keep markets functioning and to try to juice the economy when we do go back to work. We know the stock market loves stimulus. So, oftentimes, when you see a disconnect, it means that the market is steering the stimulus that we`re seeing from the Federal Reserve but that`s not actually being felt in the real economy at this point.

And then there`s two other factors I just want to quickly mention as to what moving the stock market. The reopening of states and the reopening of industries and companies has put the market in a better mood lately. There is a lot of investors who are looking at China, which has seen a rebound and its cases go down and a stronger economy. And they`re thinking that could happen to the U.S. So that would be the optimistic case.

And, then, as I mentioned before, every single day, there is a new potential treatment going into clinical trials or an update on how swift these vaccines are being made. The ingenuity of the American pharmaceutical giants right now and the resources they are putting to fighting this pandemic are certainly giving investors hope.

KORNACKI: Okay, Sara Eisen, you have set up perfectly, by the way, our next segment. I`m about to say thanks for your time right now, Ben White as well. I really appreciate both of you joining us.

EISEN: Thank you.

KORNACKI: And coming up, as Sara was just saying, more states beginning that process of partially reopening. Some of them though not meeting the guidelines that the Trump administration had set forward for states to begin the process. How great are the risks here? And what can we learn from other countries that have successfully fought back against the coronavirus? Stay with us.


KORNACKI: Welcome back.

The majority of states in the country have begun lifting at least some of their restrictions and opened the process of gradually reopening their economies.

And over the next week, several more states, Kentucky, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Virginia, are going to join their ranks.

And, today, America`s biggest state, California, has entered stage two of its phased reopening process. And that includes permitting small -- some small retail businesses to open for curbside pickup, including clothing stores, florists, bookstores, and sporting good stores.

This also comes as California notched its largest single-day number of new cases earlier this week. It`s a development that has raised some alarms, as the state begins to loosen restrictions. However, California has also been conducting far more tests than before, which could help account for the rise in cases. If you have more testing, you`re probably going to find more cases.

This is a very complicated issue. The White House has provided guidance to states, suggesting they hold off on beginning to reopen until there`s a downward trajectory of cases over a 14-day period or a reduction in the rate of tests conducted that come back positive.

The math here is complicated. And the guidelines for exactly how to calculate these numbers are not specific.

"The New York Times" analyzed the numbers, and in its view -- quote -- "In more than half of states easing restrictions, case counts are trending upward, positive test results are rising, or both, raising concerns among public health experts."

And for more, I am joined by Kate Gallego, mayor of Phoenix, Arizona, Dr. Nahid Bhadelia, infectious diseases physician and medical director of the Special Pathogens Unit at Boston University School of Medicine, and Noah Rothman, associate editor for "Commentary" magazine.

Thanks to all of you for joining us.

Let me start with you, Mayor, because your state, your city in an interesting position here. Arizona is among these states that is beginning to lift restrictions here, restrictions today on going to retail businesses, retail businesses opening up, restrictions next week on restaurants, on in-person dining at restaurants.

You`re in an interesting position, because I notice the statistics in Arizona, the case numbers are up over the last few weeks, but the testing numbers are also way up over the last couple weeks in Arizona. So I`m curious, how do you feel about these restrictions being lifted? Do you think it`s appropriate? Do you think it`s going well? Do you think it`s too much?

MAYOR KATE GALLEGO (D-AZ), PHOENIX: I have called on our governor to follow the Centers for Disease Control guidelines.

We have not yet met what we call the gating guidelines. We have some statistics that are helpful, but we are also seeing rising numbers of COVID-19 cases, as well as, unfortunately, we are -- for several days this week reported record numbers of deaths.

The governor previously, last Thursday, had said, give us more time, we have to err on the side of caution and invest in public health. I supported him in that.

But, later, a few days later, on Monday of this week, he went in a different direction.

KORNACKI: Dr. Bhadelia, let me pick it up with you there.

The argument is made -- and I have heard it made in the context of, hey, if you -- if you get rid of the restrictions, you`re going to have a surgeon cases. And I understand, if you just eased every restriction, flung the door open to every restaurant and every store, and everybody flooded in, I certainly see the logic of that.

But I`m curious, when you look at the restrictions on these reopenings -- and they vary by state, but a lot of times you`re seeing restrictions that say six feet of social distancing is mandatory, everybody`s wearing masks in indoor settings, you can only have 25 or 50 percent capacity in the stores.

Do you think there is a responsible path there to getting some economic activity going, while minimizing the risk of a spread? Or do you think that alone is irresponsible too in this climate?

DR. NAHID BHADELIA, NBC NEWS MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Steve, I think you said it, which is that any time you reopen in this setting, knowing that most are of us are still vulnerable, it is taking on the risk of the fact that you will see more cases.

But the way that -- countries that have done this successfully, they have driven the case numbers down with the shutdowns, with the ability to sort of get to a point where then they can deploy a practice of testing, tracing people, and then isolating those that they find that might be sick, or quarantining those that might be exposed to those who are sick, right?

It gets to a point where it`s so few people. And the way that they have done this is, they have built an infrastructure that allows them to basically capture those people and limit the clusters of new cases that are occurring.

And what you`re seeing is that, for many of the cases, many of the states that are opening, that they may not completely have that entire infrastructure in place.

But here`s the other thing they have done. They have actually driven home the point with their public that it is actually part of everybody`s responsibility to follow the public health measures. Hong Kong, for example, handed out 1.5 million reusable masks. That really -- and the governments really put out these guidelines in which businesses and individuals could innovate, so they could return to some level of normalcy.

And so we`re seeing some states which are failing on the first part in some cases in some states, but I think we have to then also present the public and businesses with guidelines that allow them to sort of safely reenter society.

KORNACKI: And, Noah, I want to bring you in, because you have made some arguments here about the willingness of people to live with all of these restrictions in many of these states.

And I bring this up because I have seen some of the data out there. They have that mobility data from Apple, from Google that`s out there. And it is showing, in a lot of these places, even where there are restrictions, people are starting to move around more.

I`m curious how you think about that, the willingness of people to continue abiding by these restrictions, even when they`re still in place.

NOAH ROTHMAN, "COMMENTARY": Well, unfortunately, I think it was inevitable that the urgency of this crisis would fade, and that necessity would intervene.

And you`re likely seeing that. Now, quite a few people, I`d say the majority, are still relatively scared of the outside world and aren`t going to interact with it. But this is not an up-or-down referendum in which 50 percent plus one get a say in this thing. Everyone gets a say in whether or not these restrictions are maintained.

I think, as an adult, we should all be able to have a rational conversation about the fact that there are no good options here, that we have a series of bad options, and we have to make a bunch of bad choices, and we have to make them soon.

The total deaths related to this epidemic are terrible. The fact that we`re probably going to see about a third of the economy wiped out, a third of GDP in the next quarter, is an existential crisis for millions.

We are now currently awaiting scientific breakthroughs to relieve us, to perhaps a vaccine or therapeutics that will work, or a contact tracing system. But when you look at what actually worked in places like South Korea, which has a much smaller population than us, you`re talking about using banking guidelines or banking records, CCTV camera, which we don`t have, putting people with -- who are mild cases in hotels that you commandeer, and use as essentially isolation centers.

This is a logistical, technological and legal set of logistics that are just nightmarish to consider. And if you`re going to sit around and wait for those conditions to materialize, you`re going to find a lot of people more and more, every week, simply ceasing to abide by these guidelines and threatening the consensus around lockdowns.

KORNACKI: Well, let me -- Mayor, let me ask you about that, then.

What you would like to see in place to begin the reopening, when you talk about testing, contact tracing, getting these numbers down, to get the kind of program in place and case numbers you`re looking for, do you have a sense how long you think that would take?

And if you could address Noah`s point there, what do you think of your own citizens` willingness to wait that period of time?

GALLEGO: We here in Arizona are at the bottom for the number of tests that have been performed.

I have had the chance to hear from the mayor of Seoul in South Korea, and they every day were performing more tests than we have over significant periods of time. So, we just don`t have that data here. We have seen more and more protective equipment become available.

But I live in a metro area, where we have 500 long-term care facilities. What I`m hearing from them is that they do not yet have the protective equipment. We`re seeing the supply chain improve. We are seeing advances in that area.

So we are really making progress. Testing is ramping up. It feels like it is weeks away, but we are not there yet.

KORNACKI: OK, Mayor Kate Gallego, Phoenix, Arizona, Dr. Nahid Bhadelia, Noah Rothman, thank you all for joining us. Appreciate that.

Still ahead: The president is making predictions about the economy and the search for a vaccine. Many economic and medical experts may not be on the same page.

More on that next.


KORNACKI: Welcome back.

Despite the news today that the unemployment rate has soared to heights not seen since the Great Depression, President Trump, as we said, he is expressing optimism that there will be a swift rebound by next year.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I created -- as president, we had the strongest economy in the history of the world, the strongest economy we have ever had, and we had to close it, which is artificial. We artificially closed it.

Those jobs will all be back. And they will be back very soon. And next year, we`re going to have a phenomenal year. People are ready to go. We got to get it open. People -- and safely. People are ready to go.


KORNACKI: "The New York Times" notes that -- quote -- "Most forecasters expect the unemployment rate to remain elevated at least through 2021 and probably longer."

The president has predicted that a vaccine would be available at the end of this year, only to soften those remarks a few days later. Now the president is saying that he thinks the virus will go away without a vaccine.

Here`s Trump today.


QUESTION: How important do you believe a vaccine is to getting out of this? And what do you say to those that -- this growing anti-vaccine...

TRUMP: Well, I feel about vaccines like I feel about tests. This is going to go away without a vaccine. It`s going to go away. And it`s -- we`re not going to see it again, hopefully, after a period of time.

QUESTION: What evidence have you seen that this is going to go away without a vaccine?

TRUMP: I just rely on what doctors say. They say it`s going to go.

That doesn`t mean this year. It doesn`t mean it`s going to be gone, frankly, by the fall or after the fall. But, eventually, it`s going to go away. The question is, will we need a vaccine? At some point, it will probably go away by itself.


KORNACKI: Dr. Anthony Fauci has said that a vaccine is needed to return completely to normal.

I`m joined now by Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin.

Senator, thank you for joining us.

Well, let me ask you first about that economic news. The president there saying he thinks, by next year, this economy is going to be firing -- by the end of this year, the economy is going to be firing again.

We stipulate, all the experts seem to agree, the unemployment rate is going to be high here for a long time. I guess the question I have for you is, when do you think this economy will start to have some real positive momentum again? Does it just depend on a vaccine, on a treatment for this?

SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D-WI): Well, certainly it depends on all sorts of factors. And part of it is leadership on -- from the president.

The president wants to reopen the economy. We all want to reopen the economy. The president calls himself a cheerleader.

But we need a real leader, not a cheerleader, right now. And there are some really tough things that need to get done. The Senate returned to begin work on those things. But the president seems to be avoiding standing up to the occasion and getting those really hard things done.

So, whether that`s a national testing strategy that can be followed through and implemented, whether that is using the full powers of the Defense Production Act for PPE and medical equipment and testing, this president needs to lead, not cheerlead.

KORNACKI: Well, he used the powers of the Defense Production Act to declare meatpacking facilities to be a critical industry in this country.

And there have been a number of severe outbreaks at those meatpacking plants. And some now appear to be suggesting that the lifestyles of the employees may account for part of that spike in cases.

Politico reported yesterday that, in a call with lawmakers, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said that those infections were linked more to the home and social aspects of workers` -- of workers` lives, rather than the conditions inside the facilities.

You have been calling for OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, to play a role here with these meatpacking facilities in setting safety guidelines, in setting sanitary guidelines, and enforcing them.

What specific guidelines do you want enacted for these plants?


Well, first of all, I want to call out negatively the denigration of meatpacking workers, blaming the victims, if you will.

Meatpacking is hard work, sometimes dangerous work, under normal circumstances, and certainly more so today. And instead of blaming these hard workers and essential workers, instead, these companies should be living up to their responsibilities to assist with making sure that there`s adequate personal protective equipment, that they have protocols in place that allow for social distancing, not only on the work floor, but also in break rooms and locker rooms.

And they need to be stepping up to their responsibilities, not blaming their workers.

That said, I have put forth legislation that would require OSHA, our lead agency intended to protect workers` safety and health, to issue enforceable, mandatory emergency temporary standards to help employers deal with this pandemic.

That would apply both to the essential workers in health care settings, in first responder settings, in meatpacking places and other essential businesses. But, also, as we look to reopening the economy, it would apply to all workplaces, so that employers have the guidance they need and enforceable standards to get ready for that.

And this administration has not stood up the very agency that should be providing this -- these standards and protecting workers.

KORNACKI: Well, let me ask you about what you`re trying to do here to bring about the enforcement that you`re seeking, because you have sent a letter here with the Republican senator.

I think this is a very sort of unusual partnership. And I wanted to ask you about it. Josh Hawley of Missouri and you have both sent a letter here asking that these meatpacking companies be investigated for an antitrust violation.

Now, I`m curious. Is this a tool, the threat of an investigation and a bipartisan push here, which we don`t always see, is this a tool to try to bring about the kind of enforcement, standards and enforcement, that you`re looking for?

BALDWIN: Well, this is, I think, an accompanying or companion observation about what`s happened in the meat industry.

We used to have far more meatpacking companies. Now these are behemoth multinational corporations. In many cases, they have made decisions, because of their market power, that have led to less safe conditions. They have closed smaller plants, consolidated into large plants, where hundreds upon hundreds of people work in close quarters and difficult conditions.

And that consolidation is a key part of this.

When three or four companies control 80 percent of an industry, that is a problem. And it has many ramifications. With that much market power, they have a lot of political power to lobby for things like -- like orders from the president of the United States.

And they also have -- there`s other concerns, when they become that big and that powerful. But they ought to be stepping up to their own responsibilities of protecting their workers right now.

KORNACKI: All right, Senator Tammy Baldwin from Wisconsin, thank you for joining us.

And still ahead: The woman who`s accusing Joe Biden of sexual assault in 1993 is speaking out now in her first on-camera interview. She`s calling on him to drop out of the presidential race.

We`re going to bring you the latest on what she is saying. That`s next.


KORNACKI: Welcome back.

Tara Reade, the former Joe Biden staffer who has accused him of sexually assaulting her 27 years ago, is speaking out in her first on-camera interview since Biden unequivocally denied her allegation last week.

And she is calling for Biden to drop out of the 2020 race.

This is a clip was released just yesterday.


TARA READE, BIDEN ACCUSER: You and I were there, Joe Biden. Please step forward and be held accountable.

You should not be running on character for the president of the United States.

MEGYN KELLY, JOURNALIST: You want him to withdraw?

READE: I wish he would. But he won`t. But I wish he would. That`s how I feel emotionally.

KELLY: Do you want an apology?

READE: I think it`s a little late.


KORNACKI: The former vice president responded, calling her claims flat-out false.


BIDEN: Well, look, nothing ever happened with Tara Reade.

Believing women means taking a woman`s claim seriously, when she steps forward, and then vetting it, looking into it. And that`s true. That`s true in this case, too. Women have a right to be heard. And the press should rigorously investigate claims like these.

I will always uphold that principle. But, in the end, in every case, the truth is what matters. And in this case, the truth is, these claims are flat-out false.


KORNACKI: And this comes as a local California newspaper reported yesterday on a 1996 court filing from Reade`s husband at the time in which he mentions read telling him about sexual harassment she experienced while working in Biden`s office.

He told the court that -- quote -- "On several occasions, Reade related a problem that she was having at work regarding sexual harassment in U.S. Senator Joe Biden`s office. She told me that she eventually struck a deal with the chief of staff of the senator`s office and left her position. It was obvious that this event had had a very traumatic effect on her."

Now, the filing does not mention sexual assault. And Biden`s then chief of staff, Ted Kaufman, has said that he does not remember her.

And just a moment ago, the full interview with Tara Reade was posted online.

And I am joined now by Ali Vitali, MSNBC political reporter, who has been covering Joe Biden and this case.

Ali, so, we just mentioned, in the last few minutes -- I don`t know how much of this you have gotten a chance to see, but this full interview Megyn Kelly did with Tara Reade is now posted, Tara Reade speaking out for the first time on camera after Joe Biden made the denial.

Are we learning anything new here?

ALI VITALI, NBC NEWS POLITICAL REPORTER: Steve, I haven`t gotten a chance to watch the entire interview. It`s just shy of an hour, about 40 minutes.

But I was able to get through about the first 10 to 12 minutes of it. The parts of it that we haven`t seen are a lot of setting up who Tara Reade is, how she came to Washington, what the job she did in Joe Biden`s office was, the sexual -- the sexual harassment allegations that she`s talked about, and, of course, then detailing the sexual assault.

And so I think, in the larger context of that interview, of course, it`s interesting to see her out there for the first time. Those headlines that you mentioned are important. She`s talking about how she thinks that Joe Biden should drop out of the race, although she doesn`t think that he will do so.

She also says that she thinks it`s too late for an apology at this point. But I have to say, I was really struck in watching the interview, having interviewed her several times over the phone myself, by how defiant she sounded.

Those were things is that I had never heard her call for in my interviews with her. So hearing her take that tone, I mean, that was really striking to me in watching the interview pieces that we have had coming out yesterday and now today.

I also think it`s important what you mentioned about the complaint that was first unearthed by the local paper out in California. And there`s a few pieces of it that I want to highlight for our viewers, because they`re important in the larger scheme of this, because this is the first real moment that we have seen a paper trail established that backs up what Tara Reade has been saying.

And I don`t want to confuse people, because this is not the same paper trail that you and I were talking about last week, whether or not that complaint that Tara Reade said she filed with the Senate personnel office in 1993. We don`t know if we`re going to be able to see that complaint. We`re still talking with the National Archives and the Senate secretary about if we will ever be able to see if that exists.

And, again, that complaint, too, is about sexual harassment, not sexual assault. But there`s two pieces in this filing that, as I was going through it, struck me.

And the first of them -- and I`m going to read in front of me -- her ex- husband in 1996 in this filing says that Reade -- quote -- "related problems that she was having at work regarding sexual harassment in U.S. Senator Joe Biden`s office."

He adds that she said: "She eventually struck a deal with the chief of staff of the senator`s office and left her position."

Now, the chief of staff at the time was Ted Kaufman. My colleague Mike Memoli, who`s been reporting this story with me, talked with Kaufman back in mid-April, when we first started reporting this. Kaufman has said he doesn`t remember having these conversations with her.

It`s something he reiterates now as well. But I think this is a moment where those denials from the Biden campaign and former staffers are now coming up against a paper trail.

And I would point out, Tara Reade now has a lawyer. Clearly, she`s starting to go on camera. President Donald Trump himself is being asked about this as these interviews come out. Clearly, this is a story that`s not going away anytime soon.

KORNACKI: All right, Ali Vitali, again, our reporter covering Joe Biden and this issue, Ali, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

Up next: A father and son are charged in the murder of a black man shot while jogging in Georgia. Many people want to know why it took three months and a video of the shooting for police to act.

Stay with us.


KORNACKI: Welcome back.

In Georgia, two arrests have been made now in the death of Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old unarmed black man who was shot and killed in February.

Two white men, Gregory McMichael, a former law enforcement officer and his son, Travis McMichael, were charged with murder and aggravated assault, this 74 days after Arbery was killed.

McMichael claimed they thought he was a burglar and the shooting was in self-defense, Arbery`s family says he was out for a jog.

The charges came days after a cell phone video released online of the confrontation sparked outrage nationwide, leading many to ask why arrests were not made sooner.

NBC News correspondent Blayne Alexander has the latest from Georgia -- Blayne.

BLAYNE ALEXANDER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Steve, here`s where things stand right now.

Both father and son, Gregory and Travis McMichael, have been denied bail. They`re still being held here in jail in Glynn County. They both been charged with felony murder.

Now, of course, this comes after the GBI took over the case, which is something that happened earlier this week. And that came in the wake of the public release of that video which sparked national protests around the country.

Now, this shooting happened more than 10 weeks ago, but it was just within the past three days or so that you saw that video become public. You saw the public outcry. And then, after that, the GBI came in, and, of course, led to those arrests within about 36 hours or so.

So, there are certainly a number of questions left. The GBI says that they are not done investigating just yet. They`re looking into other people they believe may be connected, including the person who shot that video, and they`re not ruling out the possibility of more charges and more arrests.

Now, the family of Arbery says that they`re certainly relieved about this step. But they say that this is just the first step toward justice. What they`re really looking for, Steve, is a conviction here. And they say that they`re not quite confident that they`re going to get it, but they`re going to keep pushing for it.

Now. Remember, the older McMichael, senior McMichael, the father, says that this was an act of self-defense. They say that his son Travis began to shoot once he realized that Arbery was violently coming toward him. That`s according to a police report.

So, today, you`re seeing a number of protests, not just here in Georgia, but around the country, and also a hashtag that`s making its way around social media, #irunwithmaud, a number of people hitting the pavement, running, jogging or walking 2.23 miles.

That`s to represent February 23, the day that Arbery was killed -- Steve.

KORNACKI: All right, thank you to NBC`s Blayne Alexander.

Up next, we have an inspiring story for you. How about this, a survivor of not one, but two global pandemics?


KORNACKI: Want to end tonight with someone who inspires us, a survivor of two global pandemics.

Marilee Shapiro Asher has survived the 1918 Spanish Flu and now the coronavirus. The Jewish Telegraph Agency reports that the 107-year-old working artist was admitted to the hospital in mid-April with the coronavirus. She has now been discharged and is back home. An amazing story.

Thanks for being with us.