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Dr. Fauci TRANSCRIPT: 6/11/20, The Beat w/ Ari Melber

Guests: Melissa Murray, John Creuzot, Tony Schwartz, Danielle Belton

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: THE BEAT starts right now.

It`s Ayman Mohyeldin, who is in Ari.

Good evening, Ayman.

AYMAN MOHYELDIN, MSNBC HOST: Hey, good evening, Chuck. How are you?

It certainly did not feel like an hour, I have to tell you. Time is flying these days. We certainly appreciate that.

TODD: Thank you.

MOHYELDIN: Thank you very much, my friend.

Welcome to THE BEAT, everyone. I`m Ayman Mohyeldin, in Ari Melber.

We have got a big show tonight, as Donald Trump is in Dallas, with new comments on police brutality, while getting rebuked by a top military official and facing fresh outrage tonight.

We want to start with remarks late today from Trump meeting with law enforcement officials and faith leaders to discuss police reform, sketching out a few proposals, but stopping short of endorsing the main items that Democrats and a lot of people that are protesting are pushing for it, and then appearing to reject the idea that there even is systemic racism in law enforcement.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to work together to confront bigotry and prejudice wherever they appear. But we will make no progress and heal no wounds by falsely labeling tens of millions of decent Americans as racists or bigots.

We have to get everybody together. We have the greatest country in the world. But we get off-subject. We start thinking about things that don`t matter or don`t matter much.


MOHYELDIN: All right, and even -- check this out -- "The Dallas Morning News" reporting that, while some black enforcement officials are attending, Dallas County`s three top law enforcement officials, who are all black, got snubbed by Trump, the police chief, the sheriff, and the district attorney, none of them, none of them invited.

That DA saying, as a result, Trump -- quote -- "would not be getting the full picture of advice from law enforcement."

In a moment, I`m going to talk live to him right here on THE BEAT.

Also today, the nation`s top military officer, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley, breaking from Trump, apologizing for taking part in that now infamous photo-op in front of a church.


GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: As many of you saw the result of the photograph of me at Lafayette Square last week, that sparked a national debate about the role of the military in civil society. I should not have been there.

My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from.


MOHYELDIN: All right, and breaking just before we came on the air tonight, some news about a Trump rally next month, Trump demanding that people sign a waiver before attending that rally, admitting that they might get coronavirus and agreeing not to hold the Trump campaign responsible if they do get it.

Joining me tonight is Michael Steele, former lieutenant governor of Maryland and former chairman of the Republican National Committee, and editor in chief of The Root Danielle Belton.

Great to have both of you with us.

Michael, I could see you`re laughing already. So I`m going to get your reaction in a moment.


MOHYELDIN: I know. We`re trying to keep it serious here, Mike. Hold on one second.

I want to get Danielle`s reaction to this.

Your response to Donald Trump appearing to push back on the idea, Danielle, of systemic racism in law enforcement?

DANIELLE BELTON, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE ROOT: You know, all I can say is, I - - George Floyd didn`t die because there wasn`t systemic racism.

So many -- like, Tamir Rice didn`t die because there wasn`t -- like, I didn`t know what we`re talking about here. Like, it seems like the president just exists in a different reality than the one that we`re actually living in.

We have a severe policing problem in this country, where black people are targeted by the police. They`re arrested at higher numbers than white people for often the same offenses that white people commit. They go to prison at higher numbers. They`re sentenced at higher numbers.

Wishing away with magical thinking that systemic racism doesn`t exist doesn`t solve systemic racism. Like, we have tried that as a country for the last 400 years. It doesn`t work. You can either address the issue head on and tackle it, or you continue to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and deal with people taking to the streets full of rage about what`s happening in our society.

So, I am just beyond upset about it. Like, I don`t even know how to describe it at this point.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, I was going to say, acknowledging the problem is perhaps the first step in all of this.

Michael Steele, let me come back to you.

This morning began with what a lot of people are saying was a stunning review by the country`s top military adviser to the president, essentially breaking ranks and saying he should not have been at that Bible-holding photo-op in front of St. John`s Church in Washington, D.C.

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that`s the result of the enormous amount of pressure that was placed on the White House, and on the military, the Department of Defense by the public and by personnel within the defense community.

And so to now come out and say, my bad, was almost you had to do it. You had to do it, irrespective of where the president was, irrespective of anything else, because, at the end of the day, what we`re seeing for a lot of these individuals who were there, whether it`s the secretary of defense, the Joint Chiefs, their credibility and their position goes beyond just the administration.

And so I think, for a lot of these individuals, they`re not willing to sacrifice that on the hill that`s chosen for them by Donald Trump. So, we will see how Trump responds and reacts to this in the next few days or weeks.

But it was an appropriate response. It was an inappropriate moment for the country brought on by the president`s own desire to have another narrative out there, besides the one of him being locked down in the bunker.

MOHYELDIN: It seems that this country right now is about to engage in another serious debate, as we talk about police reforms and we talk about what this country needs to do about its past.

The president, though, and others focusing on more of the cultural war. NASCAR today banning Confederate Flags. Take a listen to the only black NASCAR racer, Bubba Wallace, this morning. Watch.


BUBBA WALLACE, NASCAR DRIVER: To most, it`s a sign of heritage, but to a large group of people, it`s a sign of hate and oppression and just a lot of negative and bad things that come to mind.

Inclusion is what we were trying to accomplish here. And if the flag is holding it back, then let`s just take it down for that, for the sporting event.


MOHYELDIN: Michael , tell us a little bit about how significant of a move this is from NASCAR.

STEELE: Well, it`s a huge move, because just go back to the nine individuals killed that church in Charlotte, where the country kind of mourned the loss, but the consternation around the flag kept that flag in play.

Yes, they took it down to South Carolina off the state capitol. But the attitude in NASCAR and other markets was, OK, we will just let -- ride this out. This is a 180-degree turn from there.

And it`s a recognition that we are now in a fundamentally different space than we have been in over a generation in terms of how the country now is beginning to look at and deal with these issues around race, which is why, going back to the first question, the response that, oh, well, it`s not a big deal, or it`s not it`s not as bad as you think, or, as the president says, well, we get off-subject, Well, you`re the one who gets off-subject, because this is the subject we`re now talking about.

And you`re still not at the table. So I think that this move by NASCAR sends an enormously important signal that large swathes of the country and, more importantly, the economy are now beginning to take seriously what our guests, your guests on this program and other programs on this network and around the country in the black -- from the black community have been saying for some time now.

It`s time to pay attention to what we have been telling you.

MOHYELDIN: Danielle, it`s quite remarkable, really quickly, that you have a president who is rejecting immediately changing the names of military bases that carry the names of past Confederate generals.

He`s rejected that. He has an opinion about that. Doesn`t have an opinion so much about choke holds and banning choke holds and no-knock warrants in this country that have led to the killing of innocent and unarmed black men and women.

BELTON: You know, I could have sworn the Confederacy lost that war. It`s kind of interesting that we have so many monuments and memories and fond memories of the Confederacy, as if the war was just a polite dispute between -- about states` rights.

The reality is, this war was about millions of enslaved African Americans forced to work for free, abused, brutalized, raped, stolen, and trapped in a system that has held them down even after slavery ended.

So, to me, it`s absolutely preposterous. Like, I personally don`t get it. But I -- the president has his base that he`s trying to appeal to, and his base apparently is racist.

MOHYELDIN: Michael Steele, Danielle Belton, stay with me for a second.

I want to bring into this conversation Dallas county`s district attorney, John Creuzot. As mentioned, he is one of the top three law enforcement officials in Dallas, all African American, who Trump overlooked for today`s roundtable discussion.

Sir, it`s great to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining the program.

Your thoughts tonight on not being invited to this roundtable on policing?

JOHN CREUZOT, DALLAS, TEXAS, COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I think that the president is missing an opportunity to hear from those of us on the ground in Dallas County.

We`re the individuals at the district attorney`s office who prosecute the cases. We interact with all police agencies in Dallas County. And for him to exclude me, the sheriff and the police chief, he`s just missing an opportunity to get real information that can be useful in the discussion and the development of national policy to address these issues.

And so he`s just missing out.

MOHYELDIN: Why do you think you were not invited, you and your colleagues were not invited, the top three law enforcement officials?

CREUZOT: You know, I don`t know. If it`s partisan politics, it doesn`t make any sense.

The sheriff and I are elected countywide. We are elected as Democrats, but the police chief is an appointed official. So it doesn`t make any sense. And those who appointed her are nonpartisan elected officials.

So I have no idea. I assume he`s not interested in what we know and what we have to say.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, it`s certainly unfortunate.

Let me get your thoughts, sir. At that roundtable, President Trump talked some police forces having -- quote -- "bad apples." Listen.


TRUMP: We have to respect our police. We have to take care of our police. And you always have a bad apple. No matter where you go, you have bad apples. And they`re not too many of them.

And I can tell you, there are not too many of them in the police department. They get shot for no reason whatsoever, other than they`re wearing blue.


MOHYELDIN: I think, to quote comedian Chris Rock here, I don`t know bad apples that kill people. But let me get your thoughts here. What would you say to President Trump if you were at that roundtable and you heard that?

CREUZOT: Well, the president, he mixes up a lot of things. Yes, there are bad apples, and, yes, police officers get shot.

But the problem is, is the disparity in policing, the overpolicing of communities of color, the arresting for petty crimes and taking people to jail for crimes that other communities are not policed on or taken to jail.

And when that happens -- and we have cataloged did here and we have memorialized it through the policies here in this office, and we have the data on it -- that`s when communities don`t trust the police and don`t trust the power establishment, so to speak.

And he doesn`t want to deal with that. He doesn`t want to talk about that. And that -- those are the things that are on the ground, are everyday practices by police, not only in Dallas County, but across this state and across this nation.

And so he`s just ignoring those things. But those are the foundations of everything else, including the murders, the shootings, and what have you that come after that.

MOHYELDIN: Let me get your final thoughts, really quickly, if I can, sir.

From where you sit as the district attorney there, one of the biggest cities in this country, do you believe racism is systemic in our law enforcement, in our judiciary system, or I should say criminal justice system, to be exact?

CREUZOT: Well, when you say racism is systemic, I wouldn`t go so far as to say that everyone is a racist in criminal justice or policing. Obviously, that is not true.

Is there racism in our systems, in our systems? Yes, obviously so. But it`s in every facet of American society, there is some degree of racism. And I think what the president has done, obviously, on many occasions, and in many forms, has tried to appeal to those individuals, yet, on the other hand, try to act as though he`s understanding.

And those two things don`t work. And even when he tries to act understanding, he really doesn`t do a very good job of it.

MOHYELDIN: Michael Steele, final thought to you? Because when we were going on there, you were cracking a smile a little bit about this waiver that folks are going to be expected to sign if they attend a president -- presidential rally there, a Trump rally, saying that, you know what, you risk getting COVID-19.

So, on one hand, he`s saying, you know what, we`re destroying it, it`s gone, it`s going up into ashes, but, at the same time, be careful, you may still get it if you come to one of his rallies.

STEELE: See, it`s not just me. Danielle is smiling too, because it is the...


STEELE: It is the craziest thing in the world.

So, you all come, but sign this disclosure that says that, if you get COVID-19 coming out to cheer me on, we`re not responsible.

Stop it. Just stay home, people. Stay home.


MOHYELDIN: All right, Michael Steele, Danielle Belton, and John Creuzot, thank you very much for joining us and starting things off for us this hour. I appreciate your time.

Coming up, I`m going to talk to the Reverend Al Sharpton about his role in the Floyd case and a new Trump decision that some call an insult to African Americans.

Plus, a big vote tonight on Breonna`s Law, banning a no-knock warrant, like the one involved in the death of Breonna Taylor.

And new calls for Dr. Fauci to testify amid a potential second wave of coronavirus cases in this country.

We`re going to talk to Tony Schwartz Biden`s claim that Trump might try to stay in power even if he loses the election in November.

I`m Ayman Mohyeldin, and you`re watching THE BEAT on MSNBC.


MOHYELDIN: The Louisville City Council will vote tonight on Breonna`s Law. It would limit no-knock warrants that was used against 26-year-old Breonna Taylor, who was shot eight times and killed when police stormed into her apartment.

She was not even the suspect they were looking for. Now, if the law passes, no-knock warrants will only be lawful with imminent threat of harm or death and would not include narcotics cases.

MSNBC`s Cal Perry is live in Louisville for us. He`s been covering this.

Cal, explain to us what this debate is all about. And how likely is it going to be that it passes tonight?


We have been talking to council members who say it will pass; it`s just a matter of when.

The debate is really, as you said, these no-knock warrants, a slick way of saying the cops enter your apartment without announcing they`re there, and they do so in force, usually undercover, out of uniforms.

That`s what happened on the evening of March 13 Breonna Taylor was killed in an exchange of gunfire. Her boyfriend thought the apartment was being broken into. So the idea is to get rid of these no-knock warrants.

Further than that, there needs to be a conversation about how folks are policing here in Louisville. We finally have our eyes on the incident report from that night. And it is, at best, I think it -- I think, at best, it probably shows incompetence.

I think, more realistically, it shows a cover-up. They said that they`re were no injuries by Breonna Taylor, they said that there would be an investigation, and the rest of it was virtually blank. They also lied on the incident report and said they did not force their way into the apartment. We know that they did, based on crime scene photos.

So after this legislation is passed, there`s going to be a continuing discussion in the city about specifically civilian oversight into how things are policed here on the ground -- Ayman.

MOHYELDIN: All right, MSNBC`s Cal Perry live in Louisville for us.

And we have seen this controversial police measure turn deadly in other cities. In fact, Houston prohibited no-knock warrants after two civilians were killed in a fatal drug raid there. The officer in that case, he lied in the affidavit on the warrant, just the same way we heard Cal say happened in Louisville.

Now Houston is expecting to overturn more than 100 cases tied to that officer. All -- listen to what I`m about to say -- all of those defendants are people of color.

One of them, George Floyd, that officer, who has since been charged with murder, was the sole witness when he arrested Floyd years ago for allegedly providing him with cocaine. The Harris County district attorney saying it is -- quote -- "not just a coincidence, but a product of a systemic problem in the way drug enforcement occurs."

And the protests and the pressure leading to more videos surfacing. In fact, the Oklahoma City Police Department releasing footage of a death from last year; 42-year-old Derrick Scott died after an encounter with police last May. Officers were called to the scene after someone reported that a black man was arguing with people and brandishing a gun.

Scott ran after being initially approached by police. Police restrained Scott after they ran after and tackled him. Scott says, "I can`t breathe."

An officer responds, "I don`t care."

I want to warn you, this footage is disturbing.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get your hands behind your back!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hands out of your pocket.


I`m going to Tase you.

SCOTT: I can`t breathe. Please. I can`t breathe.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to Tase you.

SCOTT: Don`t, please, hurt me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Give me your hand.


MOHYELDIN: I don`t care. The video then shows officers removing a gun from Scott`s pocket, as you see here. Those officers were cleared after investigation, and the autopsy said the police response did not result in - - quote -- "fatal trauma."

Scott`s family is speaking out, his mother describing the pain of reliving her son`s death.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just reliving this all over again is like reliving his death all over again, and then watching George Floyd. There`s a lot of George Floyds.

And my son was one of them.


MOHYELDIN: Joining me now is Melissa Murray, law professor at NYU.

Professor Murray, it`s great to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining us.

MELISSA MURRAY, NYU SCHOOL OF LAW: Thanks for having me.

MOHYELDIN: First, let me get your reaction to this no-knock warrant.

How likely is it to be a significant factor in the killing of so many innocent people that we see at the hands of law enforcement in this country?

MURRAY: Well, I think it`s a sizable factor.

One of the reasons why these no-knock warrants are used, especially in drug cases, is that it allows for the element of surprise. And this, the rationale goes, is necessary when you`re worried about the destruction of evidence.

The problem, of course, is that when you have the police entering a house by force, without identifying themselves first, you also have homeowners who believe, rightly so, that they have the right to defend themselves, even with force, in their own home.

So you have a setup for a collision between the police officers, who are armed, and homeowners who may also use force because they believe the police, who have not identified themselves, are intruders.


And I actually wanted to ask you on that, because you raise two really important points. One, you would think that, by the time they get to a house that they`re going to enter with a no-knock warrant, they already have some evidence that would lead them to think that that house is where they want to be, that the destruction of evidence that may exist in the house may be secondary to that.

MURRAY: Well, you would expect that, but often has been the case with these no-knock warrants where there`s been a deadly encounter between the residents and the police, they haven`t actually recovered what they sought to find.

So, often, these no-knock warrants are the product of informant information that may or may not be completely reliable. And you`re left with a judge who has to take the word of the officers. The threshold for giving out one of these warrants is relatively low. And you let them go, but then you never actually recover.

So the real question is, is this disproportionate use of force really warranted, given the very high risk of the encounters that they prompt?


And the other point that you brought up, which is important, I spoke to Councilman David James of Louisville City Council earlier today, and he said one of the problems, which you highlighted as well, is that some states, some cities have stand-your-ground laws, where, if you think an intruder is coming into your house, you rightfully have the ability to shoot back and defend yourself, defend your property, defend your life.

And that`s what we saw happen in Breonna Taylor`s case. Her partner thought he was being attacked, thought they were being attacked, and shot at the police.

MURRAY: No, I think this is, again, the confluence of a lot of different aspects of this.

Not only do homeowners have a general common law right to defend themselves within your home. These rights may actually be amplified by laws that have been passed in some cases in very recent years, allowing them even more license to use force, including deadly force, to resist intruders in the home.

So, when the police come in, by force, and they don`t actually identify themselves, you`re setting up the possibility of a very deadly encounter.

MOHYELDIN: One of the troubling things that we have learned in the last couple of days has been about the fact the evidence emerging and then what we learn on the police reports.

The Breonna Taylor police report that came out, virtually blank. Her injuries as none and, as our reporter Cal Perry said, that there was no forced entry, although pictures from the crime scene show the police used a battering ram to break down that door.

How troubled are you by the fact that more police statements, more police reports do not substantiate what actually may have happened?

MURRAY: I mean, it`s obviously incredibly troubling.

These are officers. We call them peace officers, and they`re here to protect and serve. At the very least, even if these encounters go poorly, we should at least have the expectation that the officers will be truthful in recounting what happened. And that obviously hasn`t been the case in so many of these encounters.

MOHYELDIN: And we should note Breonna Taylor, unfortunately, shot eight times in that incident.

Melissa Murray, professor at NYU, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your time.

Turning next to a leading voice on the issue of police brutality going back years. Reverend Al Sharpton is with me.

We are back in 30 seconds.



AL SHARPTON, HOST, "POLITICS NATION": All over the world, George, they`re marching with your name.

You touched every one of the 50 states. Even in a pandemic, people are walking out in the streets.

As we lay you to rest today, the movement won`t rest until we get justice.


MOHYELDIN: All right, those were just some of the clips there. That was my MSNBC colleague the Reverend Al Sharpton, head of the National Action Network, delivering George Floyd`s eulogy, a very moving one, indeed.

Rev will join me in a moment to talk about the changes he`s seen with how America responds to tragedies like this. Here`s the Rev in March of 2012 telling MSNBC viewers for the very first time about the deadly shooting of a Florida teenager.


SHARPTON: Seventeen-year-old Trayvon martin was walking back to his father`s girlfriend`s house in a gated community near Orlando, Florida.

He was shot and killed by the neighborhood watch captain. That man claimed self-defense, even though the teen was unarmed. And he is free today. The police chief says there`s not enough evidence to charge him.


MOHYELDIN: Trayvon Martin`s death, of course, ignited a new awareness of gun violence in this country, but more tragedies followed even after that.

Rev was often there, offering the family comfort, while demanding action and reform.


SHARPTON: We`re going to keep the light on Michael Brown, on Eric Garner, on Tamir Rice.

They choked a man to death on video.

When I look at Terence Crutcher, he look a lot like all of us.

We`re asking the federal government to come in and bring justice for Eric Garner.

We will never let you forget the name of Stephon Clark.

I can`t get to happen stepping over Tamir Rice.


MOHYELDIN: With me now is the Reverend Al Sharpton, host of "POLITICS NATION."

Rev, it`s great to have you with us.

I hate to say it`s been a long seven years since that time you talked about the Trayvon Martin shooting. Does this time feel different to you?

SHARPTON: Well, it does feel different, because I see a more diverse and broad-based and consistent movement here.

We have seen people in every state marching all over Europe and in Africa, and they continue to march. And many of our people in various cities at chapters of National Action Network have been telling me they have been going out to marches. I have gone to some.

And they are in some cases mostly white, mostly people other than blacks. I think that what has happened is that, with this pandemic, everyone was sheltered down and began watching. Within three weeks, Ayman, you saw Ahmaud Arbery killed in Brunswick, Georgia, by three people, then right behind that Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky, with the case you just covered, and then George Floyd right behind that, all within three weeks.

And people said, wait a minute, this is just too much. And this has been building up for years. And I think that, finally, the George case is the tipping point.

When you look at now the Congress has come out with proposing a bill that will probably pass the House, and we will see if we have to go through some battle in the Senate. But you are beginning to see where there will be actual laws changed.

I might add that the no-knock law is in the congressional bill that`s being proposed. So, I think that change is in the air. We just have to remain disciplined and consistent to make those changes that are necessary become a reality.

MOHYELDIN: You talked about the change in -- or at least the diversity that you`re seeing there.

There`s also some data to suggest that change is happening in people`s attitudes. A new poll shows that 69 percent say there are broad problems behind police treatment of African Americans.

To put that in perspective, back during the Ferguson unrest, only 43 percent said that. Why do you think that has changed as well? What do you attribute that public mood swing to?

SHARPTON: A lot of it, I think, came from the fact that people kept seeing videos. There was a video with Eric Garner, but it didn`t change that much.

But when you start seeing, year after year -- Eric Garner was six years ago. And you kept seeing videos, McDonald in Chicago and other videos. After a while, the public starts slowly saying, well, wait a minute, that`s not just people saying something or imagining something or the activists making this up.

So I think it took time. The other thing, I think, is that Donald Trump set such a divisive climate, until people started saying, wait a minute, we cannot just be that hostile and insensitive, and have people tell us, don`t believe your own lying eyes. I know what I`m looking at, and we need to do something about it.

MOHYELDIN: Speaking of President Trump and insensitivity, I want to get your thoughts on another aspect of this, Donald Trump`s decision to hold a rally on June 19, or Juneteenth, as it is known, the date that marks the end of slavery in this country.

Out of all places, he`s doing it in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where, in 1921, white rioters destroyed an affluent African American community, with reports of hundreds of black residents murdered on the streets of Tulsa.

Millions of Americans learned about this history on an episode of HBO`s "Watchmen" showing a black family fleeing that massacre. Watch this. So much of the history in this country that people actually don`t know about, but, Rev, your thoughts on this Trump rally in Tulsa on June 10?

SHARPTON: It is the epitome of an insult to go to Tulsa, the site of the 1921 massacre of hundreds of blacks, and to do it on the day that blacks in Texas finally found out they were freed from slavery, from chattel slavery.

And the conference that you`re going to use to start your rallies of make America great again on two of the most despicable episodes in American history, the massacre of blacks in Tulsa, where you are going, and the day that Texas recognized the freedom of blacks from chattel slavery, which brought up the whole prolonged 200 and over 70 years of slavery.

For him to do that, it reminds me of when Ronald Reagan kicked off his campaign in Mississippi, and people said, why would he go to this town in Mississippi where civil rights workers were killed? That was the only thing known about that town.

I think that Donald Trump, no matter what he says today about law enforcement and racial issues, when he tries to maybe act like he wants to bring people together, the fact that he chose that date and chose that location says everything to the base of supremacists that admittedly supported him that he is the one that will lean, if it even is just with a wink, but will send the signals where he`s at.

And so we get the signal too, Mr. Trump. We understand what your statement means by choosing that day and that place.

MOHYELDIN: All right, Reverend Al Sharpton, sir, always appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us this hour.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

MOHYELDIN: All right.

And you can, of course, catch the Rev on "POLITICS NATION" weekends at 5:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.

Ahead: Joe Biden`s greatest concern, Trump stealing the 2020 election. Would Trump go quietly if he lost? That is the question tonight. Biden thinks the military would have to intervene, believe it or not.

Trump`s "Art of the Deal" co-author has a lot to say about this. He`s here next.


MOHYELDIN: Folks, this is a surreal idea ripped straight from thriller novels, Joe Biden going on the record predicting, predicting Donald Trump will try to steal the 2020 election. Watch.


JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s my greatest concern, my single greatest concern.

This president is going to try to steal this election. This is a guy who said that all mail-in ballots are fraudulent, direct voting by mail, while he sits behind the desk in the Oval Office and writes his mail-in ballot to vote in a primary.


MOHYELDIN: So, in a moment, I`m going to talk to a friend of THE BEAT and "Art of the Deal" co-author Tony Schwartz.

But, first, Biden`s remarks come amid outrage over absurdly long voting lines in Georgia, and critics point to the Trump administration`s sustained attack on democratic norms in this country, from claiming there were up to five million illegal votes in 2016 -- that was not true, that was false -- to asking for dirt on Joe Biden from the Ukrainian government, to Trump`s son-in-law at one point declining to rule out delaying the 2020 election if they needed to.

Now, the other issue, if Trump loses, would he try to cling onto power any way possible? Here`s Biden.


TREVOR NOAH, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH TREVOR NOAH": This is a strange question to ask an American politician.

Have you ever considered what would happen if the election result came out as you being the winner, and Trump refused to leave?

BIDEN: Yes, I have.

And you have so many rank-and-file military personnel saying, whoa, we`re not a military state. This is not who we are. I promise you, I`m absolutely convinced they will escort him from the White House in a -- with great dispatch.


MOHYELDIN: Joining me now for our State of the Mind franchise, Tony Schwartz, co-author of "Art of the Deal" and CEO of The Energy Project. He`s just published an article for Medium about the dangers of Trump during a time of crisis.

Mr. Schwartz, it`s great to have you with us.

I have to say, I mean, just hearing that, as somebody who has covered so many countries, authoritarian countries overseas, where the issue of peaceful transfer of power is distinctly and uniquely American, do you think Biden`s warning about Trump trying to steal the election and the fact that he may not even leave office if he does lose are justified?


He is -- as I have written on Medium, he is a psychopath, meaning, he is missing the two ingredients that are critical and common for human beings, number one, conscience, and, number two, empathy.

So he lacks both of these qualities, and, therefore, anything goes for Trump. And think about this. The minute he leaves office, his life, for all practical purposes, from his perspective, is over, because, at a minimum, he loses the vast percentage of his power and his ability to dominate.

And, believe me, he`s gotten used to that. And giving it up is unthinkable.

MOHYELDIN: I wanted to go back to that moment a little bit, because I don`t think a lot of us just understand what that moment would mean for this country, if there isn`t in a peaceful transfer of power.

And as Joe Biden -- I think the alarming thing in that interview is, he answered that question seriously. That was a serious question from Trevor Noah, and Joe Biden answered it seriously, that it would be the military who would perhaps have to act and dispatch him from that office.

SCHWARTZ: Well, I think that`s what it will come down to. And then the question is, on whose side does the military stand? Does it stand on the side of democracy, or does it stand on the side of the commander in chief, even if those circumstances suggest he should no longer be the commander in chief?

And I`m not in any way confident in what that outcome will be. But I have no doubt that Trump is going to do everything he possibly can, including the recruitment of Vladimir Putin, which he hardly needs to do.

Putin wants to end democracy in the United States. He will do everything he can, exactly as Biden says, to try to steal this election.

MOHYELDIN: Let me play for you President Trump`s recording talking to governors about the unrest in this country, where he says to them, they have to dominate protests and, in fact, put them in jail for up to 10 years. Take a listen to this.


TRUMP: You have to dominate. If you don`t dominate, you`re wasting your time. They`re going to run over you. You`re going to look like a bunch of jerks. You have to dominate.

And most of you are weak. We`re going to clamp down very, very strong. But you have to arrest people, and you have to try people, you have to try to put him in jail for 10 years, and you will never see this stuff again.


MOHYELDIN: What do you think that reveals about how the president views a protest in this country and people`s basic liberties? What do you think that reveals about his mind-set?

SCHWARTZ: I was fascinated that he used the word dominance or dominate four or five different times that day, because that morning was the morning that I published my Medium article.

And the core point I was making is that we have misunderstood Donald Trump as someone who is motivated by his narcissism, meaning by his desire to be loved, when, in fact, true as that is, what deeply, deeply motivates Donald Trump is the need and desire to dominate.

He sees the world entirely in terms of win/lose, right/wrong, and, pardon this, black/white. And the idea that he would not dominate is precisely what he is trying desperately now to avoid.

Now, I will also say this, Ayman. He`s going to lose. I see -- I believe that now. Now, of course, who knows. Anything could happen. But I think the worm has turned. I think the cat is out of the bag.

And I think that the middle part of the electorate that is deciding which candidate they`re going to vote for is moving inexorably in the direction of Biden. And I believe that will be the case for the Senate as well.

I believe you will have a Democratic president and two Democratic parts of Congress.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, this election is going to test American democracy, I think, in ways we haven`t seen before, certainly in my lifetime.

Tony Schwartz, sir, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate your time, as always.

Ahead: A picture is worth 1,000 words.

This is Mike Pence at a Trump campaign office as coronavirus cases spike across the country. A special guest joins us next.


MOHYELDIN: Coronavirus cases in the U.S. are spiking, and Mike Pence is ignoring his own task force`s rules.

Check this out, Pence deleting this tweet. You can see him at a Trump campaign field office in Arlington, Virginia. No one, no one wearing a mask. No one social distancing.

But the leader of the now hidden Coronavirus Task Force has some work to do. Cases are growing in the U.S. as they decline elsewhere. Yahoo News reporting a 36 percent rise in recent days, the biggest spike of the top 10 countries in total cases.

In Arizona, cases have nearly doubled in the last two weeks, with officials warning hospitals could be at full capacity next month. Since Memorial Day, hospitalizations are on the rise in nine states. And, today, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin said, we are not shutting down again.


STEVEN MNUCHIN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: We can`t shut down the economy again. I think we have learned that, if you shut down the economy, you`re going to create more damage, and not just economic damage, but there are other areas -- and we have talked about this -- of medical problems and everything else that get put on hold.


MOHYELDIN: All right, joining me now is Dr. Natalie Azar, a rheumatologist with NYU Langone Hospital and an NBC News medical contributor.

Dr. Azar, great to have you with us this evening.

Let me put that Pence photo up for you and our viewers to look at again. And from your medical expertise, break it down for us. What is wrong with this picture?


Yes, you said it really with the picture is worth 1,000 words. I found this to be incredibly surprising, irresponsible, disrespectful, frankly, to all of us who are doing our part. It`s such a small gesture that really goes quite, quite far.

In fact, I`m going to punctuate that -- my commentary with a new report that was just released today from The National Academy of Sciences that actually looked at, in Wuhan, Italy, and New York City trends and analyzed different pathways of transmission and different mitigation strategies.

And, basically, they concluded that this airborne transmission is really the predominant route of transmission. And, again, we have been talking about this for some time, but they basically looked at pre-mandated mask wearing to post-mandated, or before, I should say, we were mandated to wear masks, and then after that.

And they found that dozens, dozens, thousands of cases could have been prevented in both Italy and New York City. So, this, again -- I`m just disappointed. I think there needs to be consistent messaging from leadership and that they need to model appropriate behavior, so that we all understand that this is what we need to do.

MOHYELDIN: I`m not going to say it was excusable for someone who was not the head of the Coronavirus Task Force. It is shocking that it was from the head of the Coronavirus Task Force, who should know better.

Let me ask you this, though. The Trump campaign asking people to sign a waiver -- we showed it off at the top of the hour -- before attending this month`s quote "MAGA rally," saying they won`t hold the Trump presidency or campaign, I should say, liable if in fact they do get the coronavirus.

How much risk is there in attending large crowd events right now? I believe that venue where they`re going to be at can hold up to 19,000 people, and anyone who attends has to sign that waiver.

AZAR: Right.

Yes, Ayman, large gatherings are considered super-spreading events. They just simply are, especially if they`re in an enclosed arena. We know that being outdoors can dilute and dissipate the virus a little bit.

But, I mean, listen, the gathering, the people need to be wearing masks. That is an absolute must. I just -- I don`t know what in their heads is going on, necessarily, the people who are going to attend that. If they believe, like the president has been preaching, that the virus and the pandemic is not such a big deal, I think they believe that. I truly do.

But I would be very, very concerned. And I think that everyone should get tested after they attend a rally of that nature to see if they are in fact positive. You can`t maintain social distancing in a rally like that.

MOHYELDIN: Let me get your thoughts on Dr. Fauci for a moment, because Democrats are demanding a meeting with him.

Listen to Senator Schumer talk about that.


SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): So, today, I`m requesting that Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx and other members of the administration`s Coronavirus Task Force conduct a briefing for Democratic senators on the recent spikes.


MOHYELDIN: I can imagine that the White House does not want Dr. Fauci to be front and center at any public event in this country, certainly a hearing on Capitol Hill. That would once again try and put the attention back on coronavirus.

What are the questions you think he would be asked that we would want to know at this stage?

AZAR: So, I think, Ayman, what we would want to know is that the states that are starting to see spikes, were they fulfilling all those gating criteria? So, were they ready to go to phase one? Were they ready to go to phase two? Did they satisfy all of that?

In terms of the number of cases, the number of cases, in and of themselves, is not as informative, because, again, some of these might be from increased testing. But what is the number actually? Is it reflective of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and particularly death?

And I also want to know how strong the effort was to implement the social distancing or maintain those recommendations for social distancing and mask-wearing, because if these -- all of these spikes are coming from this social distancing fatigue and people getting very lax, which I understand on the one hand, then that is something that you wouldn`t want history to repeat itself the next time they go into a reopening, if, in fact, they need to backtrack.

So , I think those are just some of the questions that they probably will want to ask, we will want to ask, and we will really need to analyze.

MOHYELDIN: All right, we will wait and see if that does, in fact, happen.

Dr. Natalie Azar, always a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining us this evening.

AZAR: Thanks, Ayman.

MOHYELDIN: We will be right back.


MOHYELDIN: That does it for me this hour. I will see you back here tomorrow morning at 10:00 Eastern, and then back here on THE BEAT 6:00 p.m.

Keep it right here on MSNBC.