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Fallback Friday with Rapper Rakim and Katy Tur. TRANSCRIPT: 10/11/19, The Beat w/ Ari Melber.

Guests: Joyce Vance, Maya Wiley, Michael McFaul, Carl Cameron, DanielleMoodie-Mills, Veronika Melkozerova, John Flannery, Rakim

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: Their WNBA team won their first championship last night, beating the Connecticut Sun by double-digits, 89-78. Special shoutout to Elena Delle Donne, the MVP, who played by side with three herniated discs. I wouldn`t do this show with one. Good for you. And guess what it`s a - it were foreshadowing more titles to come. That`s on you next.

That`s all we have for tonight. We`ll be back Monday with "MORE MEET THE PRESS DAILY." And if it`s Sunday, it`s "MEET THE PRESS" on NBC. Jim Mattis will be my lead guest.

"THE BEAT" with Ari Melber starts right now. Good evening, Ari.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chuck. I love it, and we`ll be watching Sunday. Good to see you as always, sir.

TODD: Thank you.

MELBER: We are tracking several developing stories this Friday night, Democrats scoring a victory on the impeachment probe with evidence as a top official is defying Donald Trump to testify about Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the President blatantly taking another step away from embattled advisor Rudy Giuliani after the feds indict two of his associates.


Reporter: Is Rudy still your personal attorney?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I don`t know. I haven`t spoken to Rudy. I spoke to him yesterday briefly. He`s a very good attorney and he has been my attorney, yes sure.


MELBER: And then surprise news that broke on Fox News - this was just in the last few hours. One of the channels few voices at fact-check Trump saying this out of nowhere.


SHEPARD SMITH, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is my last newscast here. Thank you for watching today and over the decades--


MELBER: Shep Smith departure after 23 years is both a media and political story that comes as conservatives are an open revolt over this impeachment battle. And we have a very special guest on that later tonight, mark my words.

But right now to our top story: More testimony, more problems. That seems to be the mantra for the Trump administration, which has been fighting furiously, and at times quite hastily, all this week to block their own staff from talking to Congress or doing what you`d expect Trump officials to try to do, which is defend Trump.

Now apparently the White House strategy is that silence and stonewalling would ultimately be a better look than letting their own appointees say what Trump did in this Ukraine plot, because Trump has lost at that whole strategy today, which led to this scene.

Diplomat Marie Yovanovitch marching into Congress to cooperate with this impeachment probe. The former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine is one of the people who knows most about this Ukraine scandal at the heart of the impeachment probe.

And while the Trump administration had ordered her not to go do what you see on your screen. Not to walk into Congress, Democrats hit back with the subpoena and she sided with her lawful obligation to honor it.

Yovanovitch spent hours talking to lawmakers behind closed doors. We can`t say everything that went down. But we do know that the entire spectacle - the entire fact-finding discussion is something Donald Trump wanted to prevent.

And that strategy is failing not only on this score today, but apparently more broadly, with Democrats prepping for Monday testimony from Trump`s former top aide on Russia Fiona Hill, which has stoked fear among people close to the President because Trump aids believed quote "She can`t be controlled or pressured not to reveal potentially damaging information about Trump."

Or take another name that`s famous in a hurry in this scandal EU Ambassador Gordon Sondland, the guy who was personally talking to Trump after The Smoking Gun texts that he was sending, went out on Ukraine, there now public.

Apparently, he wants to talk too, agreeing now to testify as soon as next week despite the Trump administration efforts to silence him, just like they tried to silence the Ambassador who also spoke today.

So while those insiders talk, Trump`s hand-picked head of the State Department keeps dodging.


NANCY AMONS, WSMV REPORTER: Text messages show diplomats under your authority told the Ukrainians that a good relationship with President Trump was only possible if they investigated his political opponent and theories about what happened in 2016. Were you aware that this was happening?

MIKE POMPEO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: Again, you`ve got your facts wrong. It sounds like you`re working at least in part for the Democratic National Committee.


MELBER: Not an answer. But what does it mean when you take it all together? And what does it mean when you think about everything that`s gone down just this week.

We`re starting to see a contrast between Donald Trump declaring a position for White House Counsel penning a dramatic letter to Congress, claiming they wouldn`t cooperate with any of this impeachment probe or talk to Congress and that`s contrasted with some of the most critical people involved in Trump`s Ukraine plot talking, cooperating.

Trump`s former Ukraine Ambassador, the Trump EU Diplomat who texted about the Biden plot, and of course multiple whistleblowers. For a President who still often resorts to crude mob-like language and complains about rats and stitching, perhaps he`s now learning a lesson outlined by Dwayne Carter in the song "Snitch" - "Ain`t no telling who spilling the earl, you telling yo boy he telling his girl. O, Now she telling the world."

Well, Trump`s own people are telling. And while he may call them snitches like a gangster, under federal law they`re called something else. They`re deemed whistleblowers. They`re protected if they state facts about crime or abuse and tonight we can report something else, more new potential whistleblowers coming forward and contacting Congress to speak up.

Let`s get right into it with a great panel former. U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance; former federal prosecutor Maya Wiley; and former Ambassador Michael McFaul will join us shortly. Your views on, Joyce, what it means to have people speaking out?

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know this is like dominoes beginning to fall. And everyone who`s ever prosecuted a case and built a significant case knows this. Once one person comes forward and tells the truth, Ari, it`s that much more difficult for other people to continue to lie. Because they start to appreciate that they`re putting themselves at risk.

And I think we`re seeing that here now that the Ambassador has spoken apparently, candidly and honestly it puts pressure on everyone else.

MELBER: And elaborate on that. Because if nobody`s talking and you can blame government or the lawyers, even if you are and on a civil servant, you say, "Well, I don`t need to go first. I`m waiting. We`ll see what I get ordered around to do."

But this is a situation now where people are getting in. So Mr. Sondland who was held back, looks around and goes, "I don`t know that I want to be the last one in."

VANCE: You know, I`m not sure. He might be in a different category. I think that there were Prudential reasons that White House Counsel didn`t want to let him testify. If they let him testify, they would have to let everyone else testify.

MELBER: By Prudential you`re using a lawyer`s word for not legally required?

VANCE: Well, I think, they viewed it as something that wouldn`t make sense, that wouldn`t be in their best interest. So it wouldn`t be prudent for them to let him testify and then refuse to give permission to other people.

I think that they expect his testimony will be favorable to Trump. He is, of course, the man of the carefully craft and cover your you - know what text message.

MELBER: But this goes back to, if he is on Trump`s side - first you and then Maya, why fight so hard to have him hold back from speaking? I mean, he`s the guy who`s defending Trump?

VANCE: And only because they don`t want anyone else to testify. They don`t want Fiona Hill to testify. I`m sure that they didn`t want to see the Ambassador testify today. These are not witnesses that are favorable to the White House.

MELBER: Maya, there is some spilling of the Earl?

MAYA WILEY, FORMER COUNSEL TO MAYOR OF NEW YORK: There`s some Earl all up under here.

But, I think, it`s really - when we when we when we look at what the former Ambassador said today, right, which is I was told that back in 2018 there were calls to get rid of me. And then we know from the indictments yesterday against the Giuliani clients - right - Parnas and Furman that they were doling out campaign money.

And at - in the same month, May 2018, they were asking for Yovanovitch to be pushed out. That we have a Congressman Pete Sessions writing a letter saying she should resign, she should go.

MELBER: So let me bring in some of - let me bring the evidence for you, because there`s a lot. You`re stacking up and this is what we`re learning for the first time today according to the Yovanovitch`s testimony.

So let me read to it. She says, look, she was ousted, even though there had been a statement from inside the administration she`d done nothing wrong. Let`s - here we go. "Department had been under pressure from Trump to remove me," she says today. She doesn`t know Giuliani`s motives for attacking her.

So she`s being very fair and careful that she can`t say what`s in his mind. But she adds "Contacts of Giuliani may have believed their financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in Ukraine." Maya translate.

WILEY: There`s a whole lot of Earl - OK that`s - right the translation here is follow the money. So you have money that is going from businessmen from - who are in Florida, but connected to Ukraine, making money in Ukraine, working with Giuliani, making money with Giuliani in various ways that we don`t fully understand, funneling that to U.S. elected, at the same time that there`s pressure coming to her to get rid of her.

But, remember, most of her testimony today - big chunk of it was focused on her efforts to support anti-corruption in the Ukraine, because it`s the corruption that was a national security problem for the United States--

MELBER: And just to--

WILEY: And these are people who benefitted from it.

MELBER: And just to pin that, because corruption has also become a very Orwellian word in the last few weeks. Some of the people who are most alleged to have been corrupt, they`re accusing everyone else of being corrupt.

So just to drill down further. Before you even get to a plot to go after Biden, what this diplomat is testifying to today is, that she thinks there was also a separate potential abuse of power about ousting U.S. officials to make people money.

WILEY: Exactly.

MELBER: And that is not OK.

WILEY: That is not OK. And I just want to say that I thought one of the things that was so powerful about her testimony and so important was she said, "I am the child of people who fled communism and Nazism." She said, "I know what totalitarianism looks like."


WILEY: And then she went into her testimony. So we - that was a very clear message to the American public, I think, and to Congress, about what the stakes are. As she reminded us that she has served Democrats and Republicans throughout her career.

MELBER: Yes. Both you stay with me former U.S. Ambassador Russia, Michael McFaul, who knows all about the diplomacy here, is also joining us as promised.

I want to play something from the rally last night. We led with a lot of the facts and the credible testimony we`ve been getting. But there was this big Trump rally and this is the way they`re trying to reboot 2016 for this new scandal. Take a look.


ERIC TRUMP, SON OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: How do you think Joe Biden and his - how do you think his son is feeling right now? Maybe "lock her up" goes to "lock him up," I don`t know it might. "Lock him up," I don`t know "lock her up" a little bit more, but am I - thank you that`s a good idea. I like that idea


MELBER: That`s how it`s playing out there. Ambassador McFaul your view of all of this. And for those of us who are not steeped in what diplomats normally do and don`t do, what did you see a significant in this testimony today?

AMB. MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: First, that tape you just played is chilling. I remember it from the Republican National Committee when they were up there yelling "lock her up". I would just point out Mr. Biden`s taxes are all been for public record. You know how much money he has. Be great if the President would do the same to see what`s going on.

But to the point that you asked, first of all, I just full disclosure. I have known Ambassador Yovanovitch for 30 years probably or at least 25 years. She has served as ambassador and three different postings.

As you already pointed out, served Republicans and Democrats. One of the most competent ambassadors I have ever worked with. Speaks fluent Russian, has her first degree from Princeton, is just a patriot and a civil servant out to defend her oath of office. And I encourage everybody to go and read this testimony if you want to know what a real Patriot is like. That`s the first thing.

It was moving to me. Ari, I have to tell you honestly, it was so moving to me. This is not somebody that wants to be in the spotlight. This is somebody that was just doing her job and is thrust into this.

Because, number two, the most important thing she says is there are standard operating procedures for the United States government to advance America`s national interests. And when it comes to diplomacy it is the State Department that is charged with advancing our diplomatic activities.

And what she reports in this written testimony and let`s be clear we haven`t heard what she she`s actually said before the committee and the people there yet. But just in her written testimony, she said what happened here was it was privatized.

Mr. Giuliani came in. He started working with the Prosecutor General Mr. Lutsenko. By the way who had a very adversarial relationship with the Ambassador. And what they did was they were using - in the name of advancing America`s interest, they were looking to advance the private personal interest of President Trump.

MELBER: Yes. And to your point privatized is a big way to put it. A more simple way to put it would be, they were trying to turn U.S. policy and make it for sale. And so what emerges here is a second front in the in the potential abuse of power, at least according to this new witness.

One front was abusing foreign policy to go after domestic rivals. The second front appears to be abusing foreign policy to make friends of the President money. Have you ever seen anything like that when you were at state?

MCFAUL: No. Nor when I was at the State Department nor at the White House. I`ve written about foreign policy for 30. There are occasionally these cowboys that come along and think that they`re going to fix the policy on their own.

Remember, you know, in the Reagan administration we had Iran-Contra and Ollie North. But even in that case he thought he was advancing America`s national interest. What we`re talking here is about private interest, both of the President, but also these two individuals, that you say, there`s a lot more to be learned about how they were trying to leverage their relationship with Mayor Giuliani for their own private economic gain.

MELBER: Yes. Well you lay it out. I hope people listening closely what you just said. I want to bring one more point to Joyce Vance. And that is, we are here on a day when the President United States is now claiming that maybe his lawyer isn`t his lawyer. And the echoes are eerie and whether you love Rudy Giuliani or you dislike Rudy Giuliani or your judgment is out.

I don`t think most people in America have not formed an opinion of Mr. Giuliani. As a human being your heart might go out to him a little bit, if you think about the fact that Michael Cohen was not the person who is most responsible for everything that he was up to. Because he was an agent acting often on others behalf`s but he is in prison right now.

He`s in prison. The feds say partly because of what he did. He`s also in prison partly because, allegedly according to the same indictment, what the President did. And I want to play for you the echo here for your full analysis of Trump on Cohen and Trump on Rudy. Take a look.


TRUMP: I don`t know them. I don`t know about them. I don`t know what they do. But I don`t know - maybe they were clients of Rudy. You`d have to ask Rudy. I just don`t know.

You`ll have to ask Michael Cohen. Michael (inaudible) - attorney and you`ll have to ask Michael--


MELBER: Is it a bad sign when President Trump start saying you have to ask the attorney and maybe that`s not his attorney anymore - for that attorney?

VANCE: Trump always has tales. Right? We know that when he says a man came up to me and said, "Sir, that we`re about to hear something that`s not true." Here we see the classic Trump throwing someone close to him under the bus. But, Ari, you have a much bigger heart than I have.

Rudy Giuliani walked into this with eyes open. Apparently, decided to hitch his wagon to a man who dishonored the rule of law, something that U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Rudy Giuliani devoted good years in his life to.

I hope now that he`ll take advantage if it`s true that he`s under investigation of the opportunity maybe to achieve some sort of the renewed good faith with the American people by coming forward and telling the truth.

MELBER: And tonight him adding to what we just showed by saying maybe Giuliani has not learned anymore, he doesn`t know.

Wow. Joyce Vance, Maya Wiley, Ambassador McFaul, a big kickoff to our Friday night coverage, thank you so much.

Coming up Donald Trump is going to explain to everyone what it means when Rudy is no longer his lawyer. A shocking exit by wanted Trump`s biggest critics at Fox News, look at this from Shep Smith.


SMITH: even in our currently polarized nation it`s my hope that the facts will win the day, that the truth will always matter.


MELBER: A big story and we`re joined tonight by the man you see on your screen with Shep, Carl Cameron who`s also left Fox News on "THE BEAT" tonight.

Also, a huge defeat for Trump in the fight to keep away his taxes from Congress` prying eyes; and a fallback Friday with Katy Tur and legendary Rakim, all that tonight, I`m Ari Melber and you`re watching "THE BEAT" on MSNBC.


MELBER: Moments ago a surprise announcement on national television this happened.


SMITH: Recently I asked the company to allow me to leave Fox News. After requesting that I stay, they obliged. Under our agreement I won`t be reporting elsewhere, at least in the near future, but I will be able to see more of Gio and Lucia, and our friends and family and then we will see what comes along.

This is my last newscast here. Thank you for watching today and over the decades as I traveled to many of your communities - Even in our currently polarized nation, it`s my hope that the facts will win the day, that the truth will always matter, that journalism and journalists will thrive. I`m Shepard Smith. Fox News, New York.


MELBER: That`s what it looks like today, Shep Smith leaving Fox News after 23 years and he says - interpret it how you want - he believes the facts will ultimately win the day. This unexpected goodbye clearly came as a shock to all kinds of people in politics in Washington around the country, to a lot of viewers, and also look at this apparently to his fellow Fox News colleagues and hosts.


NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS HOST: Well, I`m Neil Cavuto, and like you, I`m a little stunned and a little heartbroken. I don`t know what to say--


MELBER: Don`t know what to say. Sometimes that happens, especially when it`s personal in this business. Cavuto doesn`t know what to say because if you take him at his word, he didn`t know that was coming.

Now here`s what we do know about some of this recently. Shep Smith has been fact-checking the Trump administration on what is widely acknowledged to be Donald Trump`s favorite Network. He has been saying that when things are untrue from the government, he`ll deal with them.

And recently he also engaged in something of an on-air battle with other people on his own network.


SMITH: It`s crazy what we`re watching every day.


SMITH: It`s absolutely crazy. He keeps repeating ridiculous throwaway lines that are not true at all and sort of avoiding this issue of Russia as if we`re some kind of fools for asking the question--

President said that law enforcement professionals have requested the $5.7 billion, it`s he who requested it, and it`s he who said he would own the shutdown.

The President and his allies have been suggesting that the whistleblower or their sources got something wrong. Today, the President did exactly what he`s accused of doing, this time on live television--


MELBER: That`s how Shep Smith was doing his job. So that`s the context of him leaving Fox News today with the announcement that the facts will win the day. The wider political context is a Ukraine scandal rocking the White House and the conservative base, and a lot of the conversation in the conservative media on TV, online everywhere that people deal with politics.

Look at this in the wider, wider agenda. Republican support for impeachment has just jumped 21 points in the past three months to 28%. Today, Republican Governor of Maryland Larry Hogan has said he supports this impeachment probe, "I don`t see any other way to get to the facts."

Or take The Drudge Report, an influential and famously his historically conservative outlet, it`s had more and more anti-trump headlines that it`s feeding to its somewhat conservative audience.

And then Fox News, well, it says a majority of Americans back impeachment. The Washington Post has been reporting on fishers at Fox News over that very issue how they cover the fact that a lot of people and a plurality of Republicans back impeaching Donald Trump. "Fox serves as creative inspiration for the President`s political message," The Washington Post reports.

and the power the Fox News holdover Republican voters is a crucial factor as the battle over impeachment continues. It`s possible that Donald Trump is very aware of all of this and the influence on not just all voters, but these base voters.

The New York Times reports, this interesting development, Donald Trump`s attorney general meeting with Rupert Murdoch at his home this very week and Trump last night talking of Fox News at his rally, his keen awareness of how this all fits in as he battles.

So let me be clear as he battles an existential fight to defend his presidency and who does he talk about? Not members of Congress, not even the Republican senators who might decide his fate if there are impeachment articles, no. Look at what he says to the crowd last night.


TRUMP: Fox & Friends, they treat us great. What a great group. What a great group. Ainsley and Steve, and by the way, Brian`s gotten a lot better, right?

Sometimes Pete Hegseth gets on there for the--

And how good is Jesse Watters do--

Tucker`s been very good. I have to say he`s very been good.

And the legendary Sean Hannity - and Laura Ingraham was knocking him out of the park.

Maria Bartiromo, and the great Lou Dobbs, how good are they?

How about Greg? Greg used to be hate me, now he`s good.

Judge Jeanine.

I`m just rattling some names up. But they`re just terrific people. They`re terrific people.


MELBER: That`s what Trump politics looks like in America right now in the middle of this impeachment clash. This is not just a media story. It is the political story for all the marbles.

And I got to tell you, tonight we have the perfect guest on all of this, someone who of course worked with Shepard Smith, former Fox News Reporter, Carl Cameron, known then as campaign Carl, who has left Fox News. He is exclusively in 30 seconds.


MELBER: I`m joined now by former Fox News Political Reporter, Carl Cameron. Thanks for doing this tonight.


MELBER: Great to have you. You see Shep Smith leave saying facts matter after fact-checking the Trump administration. What does it mean?

CAMERON: That`s a big loss for Fox News Channel. And it says something about the way in which the cable channel has been for years, a treating - shrinking the news department and building its right-wing entertainment hosts, because that gets ratings and ratings it gets revenue and that`s how they make money.

It`s a real sad day for people who watch Fox News and want accurate information, because Shep was somebody who you could reliably count on.

MELBER: Do you think Shep leaving, leaves other people with more power? Does it tilt the network towards being a partisan defender of the government, because there`s a difference between, doing news doing some discussion of ideas, opinions and ideology, or being aligned with a government?

CAMERON: Right now I think probably the news divisions at Fox are just plain shell-shocked. And as you saw on the face of Neil Cavuto when he heard it live for the first time. And so if one of the things that we`ll be telling in terms of what happens next, is that Fox has said that they will have rotating hosts in the slot that was Shepherd`s in the weeks or days ahead.

And it`ll be interesting to find out whether or not these are journalists who tell the truth or whether these are opinion makers who are essentially coddling the President and his allies.

MELBER: Were you surprised when you heard this today?

CAMERON: Not entirely. Shep and I go way, way back. We were hired together at the launch of the network and he gave me my nickname.

MELBER: Really? Well, I think we have some of that, just to see the younger folks. We can put that up - both of you guys together. He named you "Campaign Carl"?

CAMERON: He did and - you know dirty little secret. Shep was never particularly happy about covering campaign politics. He thought that once the election season was on you couldn`t really trust anything they were going to say, because they were going to tell you whatever you want to hear.

And in many ways, he had to face, as I did, an awful lot of opinion hosts telling viewers what they wanted to hear as opposed to what they might need to know to be fully informed.

MELBER: We showed how much the President emphasizes Fox as a direct part of his political appeal last night. He also was asked about this today take a look.


REPORTER: Did you or your administration pressure Fox News to get rid of Shepard Smith?

TRUMP: No, I don`t know. Does he leaving?

REPORTER: He`s leaving.

TRUMP: Oh, that`s a shame. Is he leaving because of had ratings? If he`s leaving, I assume easily because he had bad rating. He had the worst ratings in Fox.


CAMERON: He did not have the worst ratings at Fox and he did a great job covering the news. And he was all over the world, worked doggedly had a great team. And the executives know that this is a loss.

When Fox would say or do things that were demonstrably untrue, Shep would be the person that they would point to as a measurement of good journalism. In fact, they used to do it with me occasionally too.

The reality is that without Shep`s show, Fox News`s 24-hour news wheel is down to really the Bret Baier show because Chris Wallace is on actually on a broadcast channel. Most of the rest is predominantly talk, it`s predominantly supportive of a President who is violating all kinds of American values, laws, rules, precedents, et cetera, et cetera.

And the American people need to hear that, so they can make good judgments, otherwise it`s just propaganda and that`s the stuff of third world nations, not the one that - well it prides itself as a leader of all nations.

MELBER: Wow. You work there. You worked with Shep. You`re mentioning being like a third world nation propaganda, striking.

Take a listen to a little bit of Trump and the Fox host, this relationship we`ve been tracking.


TRUMP: And Laura Ingraham was knocking him out of the park.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: The President not only did nothing wrong, he went above and beyond his duty to his office--

TRUMP: And the great Lou Dobbs, how good are they?

LOU DOBBS, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: We have a President who is a true leader, in my opinion. The one I happen to believe will be regarded is one of this country`s greatest Presidents indeed - our greatest.

TRUMP: And the legendary Sean Hannity.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: President - well, he`s been hard at work since he was elected and the results they speak for themselves.


MELBER: Our conversation continues. I want to bring in Danielle Moodie- Mills, co-host of the podcast #democracyish, who joins a former Fox News Reporter Carl Cameron.

Danielle your views on this and what it means to have a President so joined with Fox, I will go a little further, Carl fact-check Donald Trump`s impugning Shep`s ratings. I`ll go even further and note that he didn`t look completely surprised. He immediately launched into attacking Shep Smith. And one of the questions here is whether implicitly or explicitly the government is dictating programming?

DANIELLE MOODIE-MILLS, HOST, SIRIUSXM RADIO SHOW WOKEAF: I mean it`s explicit, right? The government is dictating program, and Fox News has turned in to state television - it`s Trump TV.

The reality is that why was William Barr, who is the Attorney General of the United States, going to meet with Rupert Murdoch? Why is that something that he`s doing? Was there something that was happening with Fox News and the American people that he was going to talk about?

Or was he going to talk about the fact that the polls came out and Trump didn`t like what he saw? He didn`t like the reality that was being presented to him at Fox News, which is that 51% of Americans are for impeachment and removal from office. And that he has a problem with that.

And so Shep Smith, well, I have many issues with Fox News just in general and the fact that they call themselves fair and balanced, which is a laughable at best. Is this idea that he was the only, the lone dissenter, that was there. The only one that would bring up the facts, the only one that would point out things that Trump were saying that were a lie.

And so now all of a sudden a day after that meeting he`s gone and resigned out of nowhere. 23 years - like, you know the media game. People don`t leave in the middle of their contract for no reason. Right?

Like you have to be pushed out or you have to be told to do something that then you decide, you know what, maybe that maybe my integrity is just too much at this point and so I`m going to walk away.

But what he has done here, what Fox is setting themselves up to be, is another arm of the Trump campaign and that is what they will continue to do and all of the hosts that he shouted out like it was a rap concert last night, those are the ones that he`s going to constantly lift up, because they also live in an alternate reality where, as Giuliani said, truth not truth.

MELBER: If it`s a concert, does that make Bill Barr the hype man?

MOODIE-MILLS: Yes. He would be the flavor flav of this administration.

MELBER: I think Danielle lays out a strong, blistering agenda. I have to note as a reporter that, of course, we`re reporting what Shep said today, which is that he asked to leave and that they asked him to stay and then he pressed and left, so I want to get that in there.

But Danielle raises very important questions, Carl, and what do you think about the fact that this is broader? We always make mistakes when we profile, and profiling Republicans is as to broader brush as profiling any other group. Fox News appears now to be caught in a situation, as we mentioned in the facts that we did setting this up where a lot of Republicans are concerned about potential abuse of national security powers to target rivals.

20 percent of Republicans back the impeachment probe. Don`t those people also watch Fox News? Do you think they have become too Trumpified?

CAMERON: Oh, I absolutely agree with your observation for starters. One of the things to remember is that in the case of Larry Hogan, the Governor of Maryland, down-ballot ticket members are going to be particularly afraid of what Trump could do to them.

There are moderate Republicans in both the House and Senate as compared to Donald Trump`s version of republicanism or conservatism or whatever you he wants to call it, it isn`t any of those things.

And as people who see themselves as right-of-center look at what Trump`s doing in terms of the values and the culture of what has been the Republican Party and conservatism, which has been devolving for about 20 years--


CAMERON: But over the century has been incredibly important of this country.

MELBER: And because am short on time--

CAMERON: --they feel it--

MELBER: I want to get you both in on - in a sentence what do you think of Shep Smith? What his career stood for? Carl and then Danielle.

CAMERON: I think he`s done a tremendous job. I think he has done a stellar amount of work. Dirty little secret, he didn`t like politics. I was out on the road doing that stuff and when he would come out - and we would commiserate about sometimes the vacuousness and the dishonesty of it.

MELBER: And anchor who wanted to focus on facts.

CAMERON: --it was nothing--

MELBER: Danielle?

MOODIE-MILLS: I mean, I think that we are seeing right now what happens when somebody descents against Trump. And I think that all journalists should be concerned. This is this is a concerning moment right now.

MELBER: Carl and Danielle, thanks to both of you. A really fascinating stuff.

Coming up, Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani falling out of love.



Reporter: Is Rudy still your personal attorney?

TRUMP: Well, I don`t know. I haven`t spoken to Rudy. I spoke to him yesterday briefly. He`s a very good attorney and he has been my attorney, yes sure.


MELBER: Is he still your attorney? Wow. I`m joined now by federal prosecutor John Flannery and live from Kiev in Ukraine, contributor with Kyiv Post, Veronika Melkozerova. She was the head of - ahead of the curve on this story with piece back in July called "Meet the Florida duo who are helping Giuliani investigate for Trump in Ukraine." It`s quite a story, we were talking about this week, and that duo, of course, arrested this week.

John Flannery, briefly, what does it mean to see Trump claim that maybe Rudy`s no longer his lawyer as of today?

JOHN FLANNERY, FORMAL FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s the same kind of shifty use with Mr. Cohen when Cohen had a tape recording. So I don`t think this is going to go any better for him, especially since we - he has many more pictures with him than Rudy`s two assistants in Ukraine who are now in custody.

So I think that this is his pattern. This is how he diminishes the people that he does things with. "I don`t know him. I wasn`t in the picture with him. They never did anything for me." But Rudy`s a really hard one to get rid of. He`s been with him for, I don`t know, 20 or 30 years.

MELBER: Well, let me turn to this really interesting reporting Veronika, I`m going to read briefly from it for our viewers here in the States.

"Since 2018", you wrote "the men have introduced Giuliani to three current and former senior Ukrainian prosecutors to discuss this politically damaging information. Meetings in at least five countries from Washington to the Israeli office of the Ukrainian oligarch accused of a multibillion- dollar fraud, all the way to the fresh Senate."

You were reporting this out. The feds obviously read your article and then some and yesterday filed these charges. What do we need to know about these men? What got you looking at them?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: OK. So one of them, Viktor Shokin, Former Deputy Prosecutor General of Ukraine, he was famous for not investigating corruption in Ukraine. And one of the cases he apparently solved the Burisma case--

MELBER: Right. Well, let me clarify, because I may have asked the question too broadly. Specifically, these two Giuliani associates who have now been arrested in the United States, what made you look into them and do you think their motives were primarily making money or also the wider sort of geopolitical effort?

MELKOZEROVA: So at the first place we were surprised, because these guys. One of them was accused in fraud in United States. And another, Igor Furman, he had whole businesses - which is like corruption and crime capital of Ukraine.

So we decided to find out why these kind of businessmen help presidents (inaudible) Rudy Giuliani in the first place, because it`s top leaders. And all this started searching for useful (ph) actions and how it might involve in other geopolitically--

MELBER: I think we`re - I apologize. It`s on our end, but we`re getting a little bit of a connection problem. Stay with me and John I`ll just bring you as well back in on these associates.

Do you see these as people who might have further information about other folks, which could be bad for those folks or do you see this to nature the indictment, which again, we`re all just processing from getting a yesterday right, as limited?

FLANNERY: What I tried to do is to figure out how with the limited information we have when I look at this indictment what does it tell us. And the thing it tells us is that the two people that were supposedly working for Rudy Giuliani made overtures to a Congressman in Texas, Sessions, to ask the State Department to call back the Ambassador. And that was something that was an objective of Rudy, because he felt she was interfering with their corrupt plan, in my opinion.

And so I don`t think you can look at that relationships without asking what did Rudy have to do perhaps to create the entities and to advise them about it? Also they have an organization that has been described as employing Rudy, when Rudy says he`s also advising them.

So it`s a very it`s a very strange relationship and I don`t think we`re being told the truth. And those relationships and the funds going back and forth between them, I think, will tell us a lot.

MELBER: As you peel this Trumpian onion we get back to where we started, which is Trump doesn`t know if Rudy still represents him today. Rudy doesn`t know if he really works for these people. Nobody knows who`s a lawyer for who, which by the way makes it harder to claim attorney-client privilege, when everyone forgets they might have a lawyer.

It`s really something. I want to give special thanks to John Flannery and Veronika Melkozerova. Skype is something we tried to get all the way to Ukraine, but not always our friend. Our apologies.

Up next we have a very special "Fallback Friday" with our own Katy Tur and the legendary Rakim.


MELBER: It`s time for a very special edition of "Fallback". We are in the presence of greatness. Rapper and hip-hop icon Rakim is here. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominee was declared one of the greatest lyricists of all time by The Source. MTV named, "Paid in Full" his debut album with Eric B., the greatest rap album of all time. And his new book is "Sweat the Technique," a memoir and guide to tapping your creativity.

We`re also joined by my colleague Katy Tur, NBC Correspondent and MSNBC host. She may not have a book of rhymes, but her book unbelievable about covering the Trump campaign is a New York Times bestseller. She`s a Walter Cronkite Award winner. And it`s great to have you two here together.


MELBER: Absolutely. Katy, what`s on your fallback list?

TUR: I have a growth story self-described neo-native, post-apocalypse streetwear brand.


TUR: Yes. So they have a new line of sweatshirts with college names on them or school names on them - Sandy Hook. And you might notice that there are holes in them, because those are supposed to represent bullet holes.

And it`s not like they`ve done this, according to the news reports, to raise money for gun control for those schools or a cause like that. It seems to be just going to the designers pocket, and it`s just frankly gross.

MELBER: That`s really ghoulish.

TUR: I want it to fall back.

MELBER: That I think should definitely fall back.


MELBER: Rakim, what`s on your fall back list?

RAKIM: I think the people that like to complain about things, but not actually do something about it - you know, take action, they need to fall back. You know what I mean? This is a hands-on reality that we live in now that that`s more effective. So I think if people want to complain and get up and do something about it.

MELBER: Yes, feel you on that. I mean, the Internet is a place where we have more speech than ever, which can be good, but sometimes people feel like they`re doing something just by posting and talking.

RAKIM: And actually doing more harm than good.

TUR: I would add congress, complain a lot - don`t get a lot done?

RAKIM: Exactly. We`re witnessing that now. So, I think everybody should kind of - put their 2 cents in, but also put their hand in and try to do something and be there and - then we all can complain.

MELBER: What else, Katy, is on your fall back list?

TUR: It`s also a generational thing. When I was in college and younger there were these sexy versions of regular jobs for Halloween. And it seemed to fall back, but now it`s got to fall back again because it`s getting even worse. Sexy Mr. Rogers costume.


TUR: I mean, what - it`s just - it`s stupid, it`s gross. A sexy nurse - why can`t you just be a nurse? Why do it has to be sexy nurse? It`s like women can only be a sexy version of a real job. And I think that that for a while was looked over or maybe people didn`t like it, but it was more accepted as what Halloween is.

And now we are living in a Woker (ph) time, and thank god, because that`s nasty. And you don`t have to be sexy to wear a Halloween costume. You don`t have be sexy to be Mr. Rogers or somebody like Mr. Rogers. You don`t have to be sexy to be a fireman or nurse or doctor or fighter pilot.

RAKIM: Yes, I thought Halloween was supposed to be for the kids anyway.

TUR: Yes.

RAKIM: I`m like, what`s going on? So in other words Halloween kids are running around and that`s going to be the first thing they see.

TUR: It just sends a message to woman that they are valued by the way.

MELBER: Yes, amen to that. And I - as someone like many people who grew on Mr. Rogers--

RAKIM: Yes, sir.

MELBER: Ain`t nothing sexy about it.

TUR: That`s right.

MELBER: I`m that`s on purpose.

TUR: That`s true.

RAKIM: All right. That`s right.

TUR: What`s with kids--


MELBER: Before we wrap up, Rakim, anything else on your mind?

RAKIM: Yes, I think I`m going to speak on I think the age of entertainers, people think when an entertainer gets to a certain age they`re supposed to retire. We got Bob Dylan, I think he just announced a tour. Mike Jagger, he came back after his heart surgery at 70. I mean, it`s up to the entertainer and it`s up to his audience.

I think if he wants to continue and he is good enough to continue, he or she, I think, it`s in their heart, let them do what they do.

MELBER: Do you feel like sometimes the industry wants to push the older generation out?

RAKIM: Especially rap. Especially with rap.

TUR: Why is that?

RAKIM: I think they think it`s supposed to be a young genre for some reason. But even when I was coming up, it was an older people in the genre that pushed the envelope. I came up after Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, people like that. They were older people that was in the genre.

So I think, we need the balance. The kids can have fun with it, but I still think that we need the balance, so that we can keep everything in order and the right information is getting out of here.

MELBER: I love having you both on here together.

RAKIM: Thank you. Thank you for time.

MELBER: It was Eric B. and Rakim, today its Katy Tur and Rakim.

RAKIM: That`s right.

MELBER: Thank you both.


MELBER: It is the end of the week. But the news hasn`t stopped around here and neither do we. I want you to know i want be right back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern tonight filling in for the great Lawrence O`Donnell. On the "LAST WORD" we have Michael McFaul and Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine- Banks. We`re going to dig into a lot of these developments. I have the hunch the news might change as well around 10 pm.

Also if you are around this weekend, we`re doing something else very special. Sunday night the "Trump-Ukraine Impeachment Crisis", 9:00 p.m. Eastern on Sunday, I`m anchoring it and we have a lot of great guests.