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From Mueller's witnesses to Mueller hearing. TRANSCRIPT: 8/1/19, The Beat w/ Ari Melber.

Guests: Paola Ramos, Margaret Carlson, John Flannery, Neal Katyal, TonySchwartz, DeRay McKesson

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: Well, this is a debate that is going to eat up August and who knows if it makes it to Congress. Mark, Adrian and Brett, great panel, thank you all. That`s all I got for the night. We`ll be back tomorrow with more MEET THE PRESS DAILY. "THE BEAT" with Ari Melber starts right now.

Good evening Ari.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Chuck. Thank you very much. We have a big show tonight including some major political shifts from the second Presidential debate. Democrats not only advocating for a world after Trump and for moving the party left of Obama which is now drawing push back from his VP in these new comments.


JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was little surprised at how much incoming was about Barack, about the President. The world has changed since Obama and here`s the deal. I`m - this about the future. This is about taking the same kind of integrity and moving beyond it.

The idea that somehow it`s kind of comparable to what this guy`s doing is absolutely bizarre. There`s nothing moderate about what Barack did in Obamacare, nothing. No President had come close.


MELBER: He was talking about what several top Democrats said on that debate stage.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Vice President Biden, I didn`t hear your response when the issue came up of all those deportations. You`re Vice President of United States.

JULIAN CASTRO (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Mr. Vice President, it looks like one of us has learned the lessons of the past and one of us hasn`t.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Mr. Vice President, you can`t have it both ways. You invoke President Obama more than anybody in this campaign. You can`t do it when it`s convenient and dodge it when it`s not.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In 2019 in America, for a Democrat to be running for President with the plan that does not cover everyone, I think it`s without excuse.


MELBER: How did the race to replace Donald Trump turn into analyzing Barack Obama`s legacy. Let me tell you tonight, the answer matters and not just for politics. It matters for where America is headed. Do you remember where you were on say November 10, 2016?

Two days after Trump won which shocked most people including many on his campaign, you know the reality was obviously still sinking in which made Mr Trump`s first trip to the White House as President elect quite a moment.

Remember seeing this footage for the first time. Obama who knew all about Trump`s race baiting rise who campaigned against him, welcomed him with grace and patriotism to the White House.


BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have been very encouraged by the - I think interest in President elect Trump`s wanting to work with my team around many of the issues that this great country faces. We now are going to want to do everything we can to help you succeed because if you succeed then the country succeeds.

DONALD J. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, thank you very much President Obama. It was a great honor being with you and I look forward to being with you many, many more times in the future.

OBAMA: Thank you sir.


MELBER: It`s still kind of weird to watch that. That moment crystallized America`s transition from Obama Trump. The birther-in-chief sitting with the Commander-in-chief he would soon replace, a seismic shift from an intellectual policy maker we had come to know to a loud entertainer many people thought they knew.

From the forward looking promise of yes, we can to the ominous nostalgia of Make America Great Again. It`s hard to capture just how profound that shift was from Obama to Trump. In the song American dream, the rapper Jeezy boils down to just 10 words. "First my President was black. Now my President is wack."

Many voters basically agree given Trump`s historically low approval but especially Democrats 19 out of 20 support Obama right now which makes the parties turn last night seem a little surprising and a sign of that is coming already in today because candidates who did tussle about these issues are quickly emphasizing today in public and tonight their arguments about building on Obama`s work or even going farther on policy in some ways than he did, is not intended as a knock on him.


HARRIS: I have nothing but praise for President Obama. I think he did great work. We talked about the health care system deliverance, talked about that. Many Presidents before him tried to reform America`s health care system. He actually got it done.

My proposal is about taking it to the next step but with all righteous and due credit to President Obama.


MELBER: Let`s get into it. I`m joined by the Reverend Al Sharpton, host of MSNBC`s Politics Nation. He is also met with several of the candidates and was a political friend of Barack Obama. Paola Ramos, host of Vices` LatinX, also former Deputy Director of Hispanic Press for the Hillary Clinton campaign.

And long-time Washington reporter, columnist for The Daily Beast, Margaret Carlson. Good to see all of you. Rev what do you think about the balance here certainly parties involved and building on health Care we`re building on issues where Democrats.

See all of you. Rev, what do you think about the balance here. Certainly parties evolve and building on healthcare or building on issues where Democrats feel Obama was obstructed by Republicans is certainly different then saying he didn`t get enough done while he was in office.

REV. AL SHARPTON, HOST, MSNBC: Well, I think that - you know I was there last night, both nights and I think where they come off a little disingenuous is some of them that are saying that they would be little more progressive than Obama were very regressive in criminal justice and other matter themselves.

You want to know when do they have just great progressive meeting on the road to Damascus. You talking about people that are saying that he didn`t go far enough, that we`re actually doing some of the things that we had worked with President Obama to start getting done in terms of criminal justice.

MELBER: Well Rev, isn`t the road to Damascus paved with politically convenient self-congratulatory tweets? Isn`t that what all primaries are about?

SHARPTON: I think that -

MELBER: Are you going to name names?

SHARPTON: No, I won`t. What I`m going to say is I was just tempted to answer your question.

MELBER: Yes Sir.

SHARPTON: But what I say is that I think that it really smacked to me of they were in a real mode of political desperation because they were trying to pin the tail on the donkey of Biden and they inadvertently hit Obama by accident. I think -

MELBER: And do you think that helps so - that ultimately helped Joe Biden because a lot -

SHARPTON: I think it does help Joe Biden because if I was debating, you know when I ran in 04, we debated in Fox Theater, the last thing I would have done is wanted to have the front runner, identified with the most popular Democrat in the country.

I would have tried to say I helped Obama get ADA therefore I`m trying to help more. I would not have let Joe Biden own Obama by himself if I would -

MELBER: I know you`re more of a James Brown and a soul person but this sounds a little bit like a Snoop Dogg line. When you disObama, you disyourself.

SHARPTON: Well, you must remember James Brown helped set the trail from Snoop Dogg so I can do both.

MELBER: It`s true.

PAOLA RAMOS, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF HISPANIC PRESS, HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN: So I have a little bit of a different view, right? I think that today it`s very important this idea that in order to look for it or in order to build this progress that everyone is talking about we have to look back, right? We have to recognize the mistakes that we made in the past.

I think that`s a line that when got said yesterday specifically referring to immigration, right? President Obama was an incredible President but you cannot deny the fact that under his legacy, 3 million people were deported. Those are not just numbers. No, that`s not just statistics.

That`s pain that a lot of people are feeling. No, those are families so I don`t see anything wrong with someone looking at that, taking that pain and saying we can do better. That`s not an insult because those - those people that are requesting that apology, those aren`t enemies.

No, those are the Democrats` biggest allies so I think it`s important to leverage that.

MELBER: I guess one of the questions that becomes a little bit deep or metaphysical between the two points you just made is, are you assessing that based on the politics of today or then and the fall at the back you go -

SHARPTON: I think you`re assessing it both because I was one of those that disagreed with the policy then and I agree with her that we could do better but I said that then in meetings with Obama. What I`m saying is that people saying it on the stage last night were not saying that then.

RAMOS: Back then.

SHARPTON: And they were not saying - they have become these overnight progressive converts and that`s what I`m saying. They - I had access to President Obama and publicly fought with people around and did marches and all of that. They were not there.

So I`m saying wait a minute now. If we`re going to hold President Obama accountable which we should, we got to hold you accountable too.

MELBER: How about that because there is a difference we maybe someone like Bernie Sanders who said he`s always been pushing left and at least has that history, whether you like him or not and some of what Rev is calling the converts.

RAMOS: I completely understand. I do think in the last two years, we`ve changed, right? And the movement has changed and dreamers are telling us something different and black lives matter are requesting something different and trans people and queer people. So I think what we`re seeing is that people are listening to them, right?

They`re the ones that are telling us to challenge our standards, our ideals, things that we thought were right back then, don`t necessarily make sense today and I think there`s nothing wrong with just hearing them and bringing them into the conversation and simply acknowledging that.

Again, it was not OK to deport 3 million people.

MELBER: Let me bring Margaret in and Margaret, take a listen to one of these exchanges where Biden tried to get ahead of it and say Hey I have Google too. I have Wikipedia too and if we want to go through anything anyone`s ever done, let`s talk about it and got back and forth with Cory Booker on some of these related issues which really to be to be clear, we`re talking about the treatment and the rights and due process for black and brown people in America. Take a look.


BIDEN: Why did you announce in the first day as zero tolerance policy of stop and frisk and hire Rudy Giuliani`s guy in 2007 when I was trying to get rid of the crack cocaine industry?

BOOKER: Mr. Vice President, there`s a saying in my community, you`re dipping into Kool-Aid and yet don`t even know the flavor.

This is one of those instances where the House was set on fire and you claimed responsibility for those laws. And you can`t just now come up with a plan to put out that fire.


MELBER: Margaret.

MARGARET CARLSON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: When I heard that Ari, I thought that former Mayor Booker was channeling you about the Kool-Aid. It sounded like one of your lines. The big mistake - well, the good thing that happened for Biden last night is that he wasn`t mullered.

He came out and I think the whispers that he`s past his prime and he`s too old and he`s a little decrepit, I think those will be tamped down for a while. But he turned into a malleable scold. At one point he said the world has changed since Obama because he was taking so much incoming that he wanted to wiggle his way out of that.

I mean, you asked to speak metaphysically, am not sure this is but what the people on stage didn`t do as they`re trashing you know, the greatest legislative achievement of the Democrats over eight years, the ACA was compared what Obama did even on deportation, which as your other guest said you know, 3 million is not something that to be proud of.

But no one compared to what Trump is doing. I mean, by comparison, you know Gallop finds Barack Obama the most admired person in the world and in our fractious times 66 percent of Americans across all parties approve of Barack Obama.

How much better can you get them to be associated with Barack Obama.

MELBER: That`s a striking statistic. How do you reconcile that with Donald Trump`s inaugural crowd being so much larger depending on the math.

CARLSON: You know there`s some things you just can`t explain.


SHARPTON: No, I think - I think that Margaret is right. I think that - my problem is that clearly the Affordable Care Act was absolutely one of the greatest achievements of that time and we need to go further. Clearly many of us questioned the deportation at that time and if you`re going to say that I didn`t see it then but I see it now, then you also got to give Joe Biden opportunity to say the same thing.

You can`t have it both ways.

MELBER: Well and -

SHARPTON: And I think that`s where it broke down but in criminal justice matters which is been a lot of my work in national -

MELBER: Yes sure.

SHARPTON: There were a lot of them that did things that we could not get them to stop doing and not do that we will push in Obama when we were in Ferguson which is 5 years ago. Next Friday, we`ll be back there. Deal with Michael Brown shooting, we`re dealing with Eric Garner. They were doing stop and frisk in some of these places.

And I`m saying that if you`ve grown and evolved and I think she`s right, you can, say that you`ve evolved and say that you were wrong.

MELBER: For you and then Margaret. I`m going to bring Margaret in but just as a follow up was Cory Booker then, was he nailed a little bit on his history?

SHARPTON: Last night and I don`t think he did denied it when Joe Biden said you hired Giuliani`s guy and you all did stop and frisk and he went on into the 94 crime bill.

MELBER: So was there a little Kool-Aid on everyone to use that metaphor, I`m not sure I fully understand?

SHARPTON: Well, I think that when you dip in the Kool-Aid and you already have colored it differently, you ought to not dip too deep because you might get your finger dyed a different color.

MELBER: And as you know, who can forget Margaret, the dyed fingers of the - the revolutions abroad? Sometimes that`s what people vote.

CARLSON: The purple - purple finger.

MELBER: So the dyed finger as I`m learning that Rev`s knee. I learn every night we get Rev on, it could go both ways, the Kool-Aid. Final thought Margaret as promised from you.

CARLSON: I want you to learn something at my knee. There is that sleeper candidate that I saw Tuesday night and that was Governor Steve Bullock and he tried to pull the progressives back when he said it used to be that Republicans wanted to repeal and replace Obamacare and now it`s Democrats and you know, if he makes it to the next debate, I think we if we end up looking for say a Biden if Biden falters and I`m not wishing that he does, it could be somebody a blue man, a blue governor in a red state that Trump won by 20 points.

He won by 5. The only one in the country to do such a thing and he`s right smack in the middle and I think he can get the swing voters.

MELBER: Like Cory Booker always says if you mix blue and red, you get purple color.

CARLSON: Purple, yes. It`s purple Kool-Aid time. What does the Rev think of that?

MELBER: That`s how you know you`re on The Beat when you`re in purple Kool- Aid time.

SHARPTON: What do I think of that? Purple rain.

CARLSON: It`s Tom Wolf time. Let`s go back and read Tom Wolf.

MELBER: No, I`m not ready to - and shoutout to Tom Wolf and the electric Kool-Aid ad that has maybe Ken Kesey. I`m stretching.

CARLSON: I thought that - I thought that was Tom Wolf.

MELBER: Yes, look, my producer is saying we got to go and I think it`s mostly a note for me. When they`re nice to me, it`s their way of saying, cut it out. I learned a lot from each of you and I think we had a vibrant but also really policy oriented conversation. That`s the last thing I would add.

All of that debating last night, we ended up talking a lot about criminal justice, about deportations as this takes about what Obama did. Maybe that is a break from some of the way politics has been lately as well. Rev, Paola, Margaret, thanks to each of you.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

MELBER: I should mention you could always Politics Nation weekends 5:00 PM Eastern, right here on MSNBC. A lot more on this show. Rev mentioned the Garner case, we have something on that. We have the Democratic impeachment caucus hitting a potential tipping point.

Donald Trump launching a new attack on the legal system, targeting military prosecutors. Neal Katyal on that and our friend Tony Schwartz is here to talk about news from the FBI that could put Trump in quite a bad spot. Plus hours away as I mentioned, from a new twist in this very important Eric Garner case, something we`ve been covering for months.

I`m Ari Melber and you`re watching The Beat on MSNBC.


MELBER: Breaking news tonight, we can report moments ago, a new call for impeachment from a Democratic congressman Pete Aguiler, California saying Mueller`s testimony has now convinced him to join this caucus that support impeachment proceedings which if you`re counting takes you up to 117 House Democrats who now back some kind of impeachment inquiry.

Meaning according to the NBC count if one more Democrat comes out in favor, it`s half of the caucus. Today Democrat Ted Deutch also joined the effort declaring an impeachment level inquiry in his view has already begun. Four progressive groups also joined forces to form something called `Impeach August` driving constituents to rally public pressure on their representatives including presumably Speaker Pelosi.

I`m joined now by former federal prosecutor, John Flannery. As for the conventional beat when he was Special Counsel to three congressional investigations. Thanks for joining.


MELBER: What do you think of this basic chorus that`s coming out a little post Mueller and during recess but Pelosi now looking at half her caucus backing impeachment.

FLANNERY: Well, I think, two things. One is that everybody underestimated the effect that Mueller. There have been 25 members with Aguilar today who`ve joined the impeachment roster if you will and I think it puts enormous pressure on Pelosi to act and I think the numbers will only increase and if she wants to still remain ahead of our caucus, I think she`s going to have to change her position about going forward with whether you call it an impeachment inquiry or the impeachment itself.

MELBER: Yes, as I mentioned to our viewers who know you of course as a prosecutor of legal mind but you`ve used that mind in Congress where everyone has a district and where there are those calculations so we`re going to put up the evolution of on screen here.

It started with about 30 percent of the caucus which was folks who said OK, when they held that vote. Then you look at July recently when Al Green came out 40 percent and now we`re up around 49 or as a moment ago 49 edging towards 50 percent.

How does that change in your view the way an impeachment probe would run if they get there?

FLANNERY: Well, I think that what they should do is they should pass the resolution now. There`s this notion that we are de facto an impeachment inquiry rather than de jure and putting it another way, that great legal scholar John Paul Sartre said that you are potentially nothing. You`re only what you`ve done.

And a judicial proceeding is one of the tests the court`s going to look at when they decide whether or not if you make it the ban on the court say for grand jury material, that you are an impeachment proceeding invoking that power in the constitution.

And so I don`t think it should be halfway there. You should do it and you should do it now. Particularly if you`re going to be spending the summer as Nadler says he`s going to do working on this very problem.

MELBER: With the 30 seconds we have left, what do you think was the most important thing to come out of Mueller?

FLANNERY: I thought the most important thing was his manner despite the fact that everybody wanted him to be the caped crusader, he was this steady as you go, firm, careful speaker who said very dramatic things and that finally got through and was the antidote for the toxin that came from Barr`s lips and writings in the intervening months before Mueller came to the Hill.

MELBER: Yes and as you say, there were things Mueller didn`t say that the Democrats clearly wanted but the numbers keep going up, that is one thing we can measure since Wednesday. John Flannery, thank you as always, Sir.

FLANNERY: Thank you Sir.

MELBER: Appreciate it. Now Donald Trump has been openly attacking military prosecutors just for doing their jobs. Important story. Neal Katyal is here to explain in 30 second.


MELBER: Donald Trump launching a new and brazen attack on the rule of law under cutting his administration`s own military prosecutors who handled the war crimes case against the navy seals. We covered that trial on this show. There were horrific allegations about stabbing a teenage captive, shooting civilians but those allegations were not found to be crimes.

A jury acquitted the defendant of murder and attempted murder charge who was convicted of a separate count of posing for a photo with a corpse. Under our justice system and rule of law, we all respect that outcome. That`s precisely regardless of whether one personally agrees with it or not. That`s fundamental.

And yet the very person with the authority to execute the law, the Chief Executive is now maligning members of his own military justice system for working on the case. This is not normal. It should not become normal. Now President Trump could have accepted this verdict. He could celebrate it with his freedom of speech.

But instead he is now tonight slamming these lawyers who received condemnations for their public service. He is announcing a request that the military immediately withdraw and rescind their awards. Experts saying they cannot think of another instance in the modern era where any President intervened so directly like this.

Former Pentagon spokesman says Trump`s involvement also is separately a problem because it`s the politicization of the military and it is straight up `ludicrous.` Back with our recurring opening argument series is former Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal who`s argued dozens of cases before the Supreme Court and takes these rules and traditions quite seriously.

Sir, I begin with the basic point that this is not normal. This is a big story and a big problem, precisely because of what it does to our justice system. Walk us through your views based on the precedent that you`re familiar with.

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Yes Ari, I completely agree. I mean this is the decision really of a hot head, not the decision of the President of the United States. I mean you have a tradition of military prosecutors that do justice and there`s defense attorneys as well.

And it used to be the case you know a long time ago it was said, military justice is to justice what military music is to music and it was considered kind of the laughing stock of the American justice system but that isn`t true anymore and hasn`t been for decades.

Indeed I got to work up closely for four years with the jag corps in the last decade and it is such an impressive robust system and you see that system playing out in this very case and what you don`t have is and you`ve never had as your opening suggested, you don`t have a President going in and trying to interfere with the prosecution or single prosecutors out for disfavor.

Trying to strip them of their medals and things like that. I mean that is that you know, that is a decision that you know tyrants make. It`s not a decision that Presidents make.

MELBER: I think you put it so well and although these issues don`t always boil down to pro or anti national security, they`re nuance. I wonder if you think in addition to the legal and judicial rules that we`re invoking these traditions, I wonder whether it`s someone who of course as balance these cases in the government, whether you think there`s also a potential cost to our military national security apparatus because as I understand it and you`ve been inside and closer to it than I have.

But as I understand it these are people who are part of the navy doing their jobs now being singled out and attacked by the Commander-in-Chief.

KATYAL: You`re a 100 percent right so those harms to our national security and paramilitary and there`s harms to the rule of law. With respect to the harms to our national security and justice system, I mean think about - I mean, it`s - being a prosecutor is always tough.

I mean you know, that`s not an easy job and you do it and it`s not like you`re getting paid millions of dollars or anything like that and it`s always tough to take an unpopular case, a case that should be brought, that the law says should be brought but you know you`re going to get personal condemnation for.

And now you have the President essentially putting a stem on the scale and saying well, if you take a prosecution that I don`t agree with then I`m going to come after you personally, prosecutor and I can`t think of something more dangerous to our military justice system and the security of all of our military folks.

And then when it comes to the rule of law Ari, I think there`s a big issue here which is what are the cases both in the military and the civilian justice system that this President chooses to go, look at and give special dispensations to, pardons and the like.

I mean this is other piece what happened in this military case is exactly the same kind of thinking that led to the Sheriff Joe Arpaio pardon, with the Dinesh D`Souza pardon or things like that. Normally Presidents do meet out mercy but they do so in an even handed way. They don`t just do it for political points or because they saw something on Fox news that upset them.

MELBER: While I have you, the other big news is the Senate pushing through more judges by Donald Trump on to the federal bench, permanent appointments than Obama ever got at this point in his term. Take a listen to Senator McConnell.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): One of my proudest moments is when I looked at Barack Obama in the eye and said Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.

We intend to keep confirming as many as we possibly can for as long as we`re in a position to do it. So it`ll still be my top priority in setting the agenda here in the Senate.


MELBER: For that second part, fact check true. 13 more judges here. A big priority even amidst all these controversies and Mitch McConnell`s saying he cants act on election security or other things. He`s acting here. Your views.

KATYAL: Yes, Ari, I think this is a huge story and McConnell, it`s not just the Supreme Court obstruction of the seat that Merrick Garland was to fill, it`s the fact that he left 103 judgeships unfilled on purpose so that Trump could fill them, and so the numbers are really frightening.

Trump has gotten confirmed 144 judges at this point in his presidency, Obama had 91.  And in the Circuit Courts, the Courts of Appeals, the kind of where a lot of the important stuff has decided, environmental, labor employment, all that stuff, Trump has had 43 judges confirmed, the most in history.  Obama had 19 at this point.

And it`s astounding to me, Ari.  And I think the Democrats are guilty of malpractice on this.  I mean, we`ve had all these debates over the last two days, no one even bothered to mention it.  And look, I think presidents, when they win, should have deference in the judges that they appoint and the Senate should defer to it, but a lot of these folks are tremendously unqualified.

I mean 11 of 19 judges in this latest batch that Trump wants to put up wouldn`t even tell you that Brown versus Board of Education is rightly decided.  I mean, who are we putting up for these lifetime appointments?  I mean these are some pretty darn unqualified people particularly at the trial court level, and I can`t understand for the life of me why Democrats aren`t talking about this at every turn,

MELBER:  You lay it all out there counselor, and really food for thought.  Neal Katyal, thank you.  And I want to tell the viewers, you can go right to arguments and see both this segment, Neal`s analysis, as well as a lot of his recent breakdowns.

Now, later in the show that Eric Garner case, protestors against police brutality seizing on this debate to make some news, an important story.  But first, Donald Trump now retweeting conspiracy theories inciting fear, scare tactics.  How should we combat it?  The Art of the Deal co-author Tony Schwartz, friend of the show is here.  We`ll get into all of it when we come back.


MELBER:  Another important story tonight.  We`re learning about a newly revealed internal FBI document that labels conspiracy theorists as an actual domestic terror threat.  Field agents are warning in this now leaked document that fringe political conspiracy theories can spread, and they potentially drive people to carry out yes, violent acts.

News comes right as Trump has provided a vivid example of how theories are spread, promoting a conspiracy theory on Twitter.  This account was actually formerly disabled hours later for violating its policies using fake accounts to artificially amplify the message. And some are saying this is all part of Trump`s dark psychic force. Take a look.


MARIANNE WILLIAMSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The racism, the bigotry, and the entire conversation that we`re having here tonight, if you think any of this wonkiness is going to deal with this dark psychic force of the collectivized hatred that this President is bringing up in this country, then I`m afraid that the Democrats are going to see some very dark days.


MELBER:  I`m joined now by friend of THE BEAT and co-author of The Art of the Deal, Tony Schwartz, CEO of the Energy Project, and the author of The Way We`re Working Isn`t Working.  Nice to see you again.

TONY SCHWARTZ, CEO, ENERGY PROJECT:  Nice to see you, sir.

MELBER:  How important is it to have someone in this national debate speaking at that level of breadth and depth, in the context of the FBI literally telling us this stuff has consequences?

SCHWARTZ:  Well, I think it`s why she got so much reaction.  We`re talking about Marianne Williamson.


SCHWARTZ:  Yes.  I think it`s why she got so much reaction.  I couldn`t agree with it more.  It`s what is Trump stirring up inside people, by the way he behaves.  And you know, they`re -- to me, if you step back and you pull away from the policy for a moment, the big issue is what`s the vision of America for our next president, whether it`s Trump, we know that vision or one of the Democrats, and are you going to lift us up, or are you going to drag us down?  You know, are you going to inspire us or you`re going to scare the crap out of us?

And the scary -- the scary in chief is Trump.  And I think we do -- I know, it`s been said before, but I think we are in a collective trauma.  You know, what happens in trauma is that the nervous system gets activated.  Fear is the primary agent of that.  And I think it`s pervasive, and I think it`s getting worse.

MELBER:  This is why we love talking to you about how this stuff works because one way to look at power is externally, right.  If you have money or something else that affects external reality, obviously, that is a type of power.  Internal, you`ve argued can be more powerful.

And you and Trump once wrote a book together and now you`re a critic, but from Bob Woodward`s book about all this, it talks about how Trump had gone bankrupt six times, didn`t mind bankruptcy was a business strategy, walk away, blows up the deal, real power is fear.  Do you think it`s deliberate when he triggers other people`s fear and how do you combat it?

SCHWARTZ:  I think it`s 100 percent deliberate, although it`s hard to say anything Donald does is -- Donald Trump does is deliberate because he`s so impulsive and reactive, because he himself is a trauma victim.  He himself grew up in trauma, which is why he inflicts it on us.  But I think it`s purposeful and I think he realizes it works.

And when you don`t have a conscience, I keep coming back to that, when you don`t have a conscience, it`s really easy to play to people`s fears, because you don`t walk away with a sense of shame or guilt.  Neither of those ever arise inside him.

MELBER:  So one of the habits we have in our -- in our civil discourse and obviously in the media as well, is to talk about politics is this thing over here and then real life, people`s lives is over here.  Of course, politics is what -- has a lot of impact on people`s lives.

So thinking about the way we live, and that we are living in a time where Trump at least to the Electoral College, got there and has all this influence.  What about in people`s normal lives when you have choices, say between fear, I`m worried what`s going to happen and something positive that requires living through some fear vulnerability, like oh, love or relationships?

SCHWARTZ:  There`s something psychologists call a negativity bias.  We are inclined to notice the things that are wrong long before we notice what`s right, because that`s how we keep ourselves safe and it`s an instinctive reaction.

So I think that what Trump does is he pushes us into that survival state, that nervous system activation.  And what happens in that state is your vision narrows, your prefrontal cortex begins to shut down, you become reactive rather than reflective and you are vigilant, you are looking around for where the danger is.

What you lose is the capacity for reflectiveness, for thoughtfulness for rationality, and that is pervasive.  And by the way, I do want to say that it`s not just true for people who oppose Trump, it`s very much true for the aggrieved people, the people who share his sense of being aggrieved, they too are full of fear and their own draw to Trump is a reflection of that.

They`re hoping that this guy can somehow mute their fear.  But in fact, if you ask them they would tell you that they`re among the most fearful people around.

MELBER:  Right.  Well, I like that point and I appreciate you saying it in the context of some of the common humanity and not just demonizing people based on where they landed in you know, their political views.  Tony Schwartz, let`s choose love.

SCHWARTZ:  Let`s choose love.

MELBER:  And happy summer to you.  Some food for thought as always, "STATE OF MIND" with Tony Schwartz.  When we come back we`ll have a 2020 Democrat under fire for his handling of this important alleged police brutality case when we come back.


MELBER:  The Eric Garner chokehold killing from NYPD was in the national spotlight at last night`s debate.  You may recall Mr. Garner killed over five years ago by an NYPD officer who used what was deemed an illegal chokehold.  All evidence caught on tape with Garner repeatedly saying I can`t breathe.

Now, Attorney General Bill Barr reviewed this case and decided not to criminally charged the officer Pantaleo.  He remains on the NYPD.  The commissioner can decide whether to fire him.  Now, all of this coming back because protesters interrupted the debate chanting fire Pantaleo.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Fire Pantaleo!  Fire Pantaleo!  Fire Pantaleo!


MELBER:  Later, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio who of course is running was pressing the issue.


JAKE TAPPER, HOST, CNN:  Why is that police officer still on the force, the one who killed Eric Gardner, please respond.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Let me tell you, I know the Garner family.  They`ve gone through extraordinary pain.  They`re waiting for justice, and they`re going to get justice.  There`s finally going to be justice.  I have confidence in that in the next 30 days in New York.

TAPPER:  Was that response adequate?  Please respond.

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  No, he should be fired. He should be fired now.  If I was the mayor, I`d fire him, but as President, I would make sure that we had a full investigation, that the report will be made public, and if I wasn`t satisfied, we would have a consent decree.


MELBER:  De Blasio draws attention to the fact that he doesn`t have the technical legal authority to fire the officer himself.  Critics want him to exert his influence over the Police Department of his administration.  It was also de Blasio`s decision to postpone the disciplinary proceedings for Pantaleo until after a federal probe that I just mentioned with Barr after that finished.


ERIC GARNER, VICTIM OF CHOKEHOLD KILLING:  Please don`t touch me.  Don`t touch me.


BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST:  For the second time, in as many weeks, a grand jury has found the evidence is just not there to charge a white police officer in connection with the death of a black civilian.

GARNER:  I can`t breathe.  I can`t breathe.  I can`t breathe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Federal prosecutors say they will not file civil rights charges related to the 2014 death of Eric Garner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It ultimately came down from Attorney General Bill Barr.


MELBER:  I`m joined now by Black Lives Matter Activists DeRay McKesson who has worked on this case.  And we showed the evidence there from the -- from the video against the news reports of these probes to underscore what you and others have discussed, which is every time this has been looked at, investigated, there has not been any consequence for the officer.  Walk us through your views in seeing this hit the national conversation at the base stage last night.

DERAY MCKESSON, ACTIVISTS, BLACK LIVES MATTER:  So it`s important to remember that in New York City chokeholds are banned in `93.  And obviously, we saw Pantaleo use a chokehold on Eric Garner.  Remember that Pantaleo`s lawyer is actually saying that he did not choke Eric Garner, but he used what they`re calling a seat belt technique, that was not a chokehold.

But what de Blasio failed to say yesterday, and what is sort of lost this conversation is that after Garner was killed in 2016, they actually amended the use of force policy in New York City that essentially remove the ban on chokeholds and now says that chokeholds can be used if a panel of police officers, it`s called the use of force -- the Use of Force Review Board, they say it`s OK, and they also deleted a provision that said the deadly force has to be used as a last resort.

So what we saw after the killing of Eric Garner was actually the New York City use of force policy became one of the least progressive policies in the country and de Blasio was mayor for that whole time.  So when he says that the family is going to get justice.  It`s like justice is not only about holding Pantaleo accountable, but it`s about making sure that these things never happen again.

And the policy changes when he was mayor actually make it more likely that chokehold might be used and defended, not less likely.

MELBER:  That`s a pretty serious indictment.  Let`s play a little bit of the mayor`s defense here.  We just showed as well what the candidates and others have said.  Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Officer Pantaleo, you`ve said the Justice Department prevented you from firing.

DE BLASIO:  Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  With the subways, you say Cuomo is responsible.

DE BLASIO:  He is responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You`re running for president, when does the buck stops --

DE BLASIO:  It stops with me on many, many issues, but the Justice Department asks the city New York not to act.



MCKESSON:  Yes.  So he`s right.  The Justice Department did ask the city of New York not to act.  The Justice Department did not require the city of New York not to act and he could have made a choice.  Remember, what`s interesting about New York City is that the police chief`s discretion with discipline is actually encoded in the charter of the city itself.  So we know that like the mayor`s office has the power to actually move on this and they haven`t.

And remember for context, a third of all the people killed by a stranger in this country is actually killed by a police officer.  And this is actually the first year ever where black people are more afraid of being killed by a police officer than being killed by community violence.

So the issue is real, it`s dramatic, it`s good that Castro actually is the only candidate who has a plan.  It`s sort of odd that Kamala is one of the only people who has worked inside the system in this way doesn`t actually have a plan around criminal justice.

MELBER:  With about 20 seconds left, that`s what I wanted to get you on.  Is she in your view moved enough or are you concerned about her on these issues?

MCKESSON:  So we met was Kamala.  I think Kamala has strong views.  I think that she just has to commit to some things, you know.  I think that it`s odd that she has such deep experience and expertise in the issue and doesn`t have a set of plans around criminal justice.  I think it`s a glaring fault here.  I think it`s odd.

MELBER:  Odd and as you mentioned in part of your roles in the activism you do, your meeting with a lot of these candidates.  So it`s always interesting to hear both your expertise and the political side of all this.  We`ll see what comes out of it in this primary.  DeRay McKesson, thanks for making the time.

MCKESSON:  Good to be here.

MELBER:  When we come back, I`m going to show you video that you will literally only see right here on THE BEAT.


MELBER:  Breaking News, just in from the New York Times.  State prosecutors in Manhattan have now subpoenaed Donald Trump`s family business.  This is related to investigation into the company`s role in those hush-money payments to Stormy Daniels.  The Manhattan DA`s office, examining whether any company executives may have filed false business records about this payment, which could be a state crime.

So that`s an update from today.  When you take a step back, it`s been quite a week, two Democratic debates.  Or another step, it`s been quite a month with Mueller testifying, Congress voting on impeachment.  Or you can even say quite a year, or quite an era, which makes it easy to lose track of time with all this stuff going on.

So as I mentioned before, we now want to mark an anniversary.  This show is now two years old.  So whether you recently found us or maybe you`ve been watching us since summer of 2017, thank you for watching.  Thank you to the incredible guests that have gotten us through these two years.  You`re about to see some of them in a quick roundup of highlights.


MELBER:  Did you speak to the FBI or Mueller`s prosecutors?




CARTER PAGE, FORMER AIDE, TRUMP CAMPAIGN:  As leaked to the Washington Post and New York Times, yes.

RANDY CREDICO, RADIO HOST:  You`re going to do a Tricky Dick or Richard Nixon on me.

MELBER:  You were telling them the truth about a lie?

CORSI:  No.  Well, OK, so yes.


SIMONA MANGIANTE, WIFE OF GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS:  We end up thinking that we kill him.

MELBER:  You guys realize this is weird, right?

MANGIANTE:  It is super weird.

NUNBERG:  Isn`t this ridiculous.

MAYA WILEY, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  No, it`s not ridiculous, Sam.  I think your family wants your home for Thanksgiving and I hope you will testify.

MELBER:  You wrote a report for them to impeach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I gave them that, Ari.  This is great, Ari.

MELBER:  This is great.


MELBER:  When Barr in his letter suggests this is up to him, is he right or wrong about that?


MELBER:  Will you in the president now acknowledge Mueller did not conclude a total exoneration?

JAY SEKULOW, LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP:  No, I`m not going to acknowledge that.

MELBER:  You think Bob Mueller doesn`t understand the legal burden of proof.

SEKULOW:  I did not.

BOB WOODWARD, AMERICAN JOURNALIST:  Some sort of effort to strangle an investigation.

AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST:  We can`t let Trump play us off against each other.

MCKESSON:  How do we get there?  Like what does that actually look like?  And I`m hopeful about that.

MARK MORGAN, ACTING COMMISSIONER, CBP:  -- makes a step towards progress of removing --

MELBER:  Was it in the thousands?

MORGAN:  -- people that are here illegally.

MELBER:  Was it in the thousands?

MORGAN: This is what ICE does every single day.

MELBER:  Was it in the thousands?  I know you can hear me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We`re looking at people who have a right to seek asylum.  It`s that simple.

JOHN FEAL, 9/11 FIRST RESPONDER:  This is real.  The pain and the struggle is real and you cannot play politics.  We don`t have to put up with it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We`re the aftermath.  We`re the casualties of war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I can`t tell you the effect that had on me.  It was -- it was internal.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  It`s a fundamental question about whether what he`s done is even legal.

GOV. JAY INSLEE (D-WA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The impeachment issue is now virtually become inevitable.

MELBER:  You know, under the law, that is an admission of guilt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I`m not a lawyer, thank God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I would call it a virtual wall.

MELBER:  That`s your closing argument.  They`re paying for a virtual wall.

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA):  It`s like dangling this shiny object saying here look at it


MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY:  Jay-Z said been lobbying, been happening in Manhattan.

MELBER:  For $1.00 define collusion.

BILLY EICHNER, COMEDIAN:  Oh God, it`s when you collude.

DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN:  It`s dangerous for me to even step into the political arena.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I will just say that the people I respect from Cisco to Picard great bold leaders in the future.

MELBER:  Amazing.

Kamala Harris is --

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  almost end with this interview.

MELBER:  I want a hug like that too.

KARAMO BROWN, T.V. HOST:  You`re getting one next time I see you.

MELBER:  You know what I`m going to miss the most?

KATY TUR, MSNBC HOST:  Our handouts.

MELBER:  So what specifically about them.

TUR:  The awkwardness of them.

BROWN:  Are you ready for that hug?

MELBER:  We don`t have enough hugging.

Can we toast to both our chef, our comedian, our journalist and the MSNBC moms out there?

Get close to Mike.

BROWN:  Come on.  Come on.



MELBER:  There`s always time for a hug.  As I mentioned, thanks to all of our guests, thanks to the staff at THE BEAT, thanks to everyone here, and MSNBC and everyone who supports us, and all of our studios and satellite facilities, and everything around the country and the world.  It`s been a fun two years.  We`ll keep working, we`ll keep going.

Thanks for watching THE BEAT.  We`ll be back at 6:00 p.m. Eastern tomorrow.  Don`t go anywhere right now though, because there`s a lot of politics and "HARDBALL" with Chris Matthews is up next.