Show: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER Date: June 1, 2018 Guest: Nelson Cunningham; Jerrold Nadler; Liz Plank; Gwenda Blair; Anthony Scaramucci; Rob Reiner, Doctor Dre; DJ Skribble
KATY TUR, MSNBC HOST: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.
Ari, no banter. I want to go home. It`s Friday.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Katy, I couldn`t help but notice you went with I will be back, not get to the chopper.
TUR: Get to the chopper! Run! I love that.
MELBER: I believe you just did a full Arnold impersonation.
TUR: I do --
MELBER: And you said you didn`t want to banter, Katy.
TUR: Do you know who signed my college degree?
TUR: Arnold Schwarzenegger.
TUR: He was governor of California at the time.
MELBER: Because he signed them all? Was it an auto pen?
TUR: He signed all. I don`t know if it was an auto pen. I`m pretty sure it was.
MELBER: Well, you just said he signed it.
TUR: Well, it was an auto pen signature, to the very least.
MELBER: I`m just having --.
TUR: Maybe it was stamp.
MELBER: I`m just having Friday night --.
TUR: Who signed your degree?
MELBER: I don`t have an answer. And I wouldn`t go to air with it until I have it fully confirmed.
TUR: Maybe you should run to the chopper to find out.
MELBER: Really good work today, Katy. Really good work. And we are going to let you go. It`s been a minute into the show. You deserve it.
TUR: Ari Melber, bye.
We have a good show tonight. I am excited, as you can see, talking to Katy. And not just about the news, but we will start with the news. This Michael Cohen threat to a reporter caught on tape and newly exposed. New reverberations on that later tonight.
Later in show, Yo! MTV raps -- take over a fallback Friday. I don`t think you want to miss that.
Also, two special guest live on THE BEAT tonight together for the first time, Rob Reiner and Anthony Scaramucci. They are here. And we have a lot to talk about.
But we begin with some of the more serious news right now. The former attorney general of the United States under Barack Obama, Eric Holder, issues this serious warning about what he is concern based on his knowledge and his sources and his relationships, what he is concerned is about to happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HOLDER, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I suspect that we are on a path where there is going to be an inevitable clash. We are going to get to a point where the justice department simply will not go any further. I think Rod will not go any further and something is going to happen. I don`t know who gets fired or what happens, but we are going to be, you know, buckle up your seat belts. We are going to be in the middle of some kind of crisis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: We are heading for some kind of crisis. Mr. Holder alone knows why he feels that now is the time to tell everyone that`s where he thinks we are heading. Some context? Well, it`s something we have been reporting on last night. I mean, it concern legal experts and a lot of citizens around [the whole the country right now. Donald Trump is openly floating pardons for obstruction of justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLDER: I think the President is trying to send a message to some people who potentially might be involved in the Russia investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And you know who is backing up that interpretation tonight? Of all people, Roger Stone, of course, under scrutiny in this probe, saying THAT this whole thing is to send a signal to Flynn and Manafort and even Mueller. Indict people for crimes that, in Roger`s view, don`t pertain to Russian collusion, and these pardons is what could happen.
And Stone goes further and says quote, referring to Mueller, "the special counsel has awesome powers, as you know, but the President has even more awesome powers."
Just consider how brazen that statement is alone. A Trump adviser, who has worked with him longer than most, currently under investigation is openly warning the man leading the investigation. That is something. Of course, Trump fanning the flames with talk of using the pardon power for this man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Sinbad, that son of a bitch. I have been fired before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Linked by "the Apprentice," the guilty former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, was famously caught on tape -- we have heard a lot about tapes lately -- he was caught on tape trying to sell Barack Obama`s Senate seat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH, FORMER ILLINOIS GOVERNOR: I have got this thing and it`s (bleep) golden. And I`m just not giving it up for (bleep) nothing. I`m not going to do it. And I can always use it and (bleep) parachute me there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: I`m not going to do it.
Meanwhile, consider this context tonight. Over 10,000 people have applied to Trump for pardons or reduced sentences. They filled out the paperwork. They abide by the process. Many of them in for non-violent offenses. As I mentioned last night, many of them African-Americans in a system that has many systemic injustices.
I can report to you as fact, I don`t mean for this to sound rude, but this is what all the facts are stacking up to tonight. Donald Trump is not thinking about them in this process. There are signs he is looking at the pardon power only on behalf of his own interests.
I`m joined now by New York congressman Jerrold Nadler, ranking member on the House judiciary committee, an important person in this debate. Maya Wiley is former council to mayor of New York City and Nelson Cunningham, a former federal prosecutor who worked with Rudy Giuliani, whose general counsel in the Clinton White House. Quite a panel.
Congressman, I will begin with you. Do you agree with Eric Holder`s analysis of where we are headed?
REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK RANKING MEMBER, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, it`s quite possible. It depends how brazen the President is. He`s musing about -- well, first of all, he has been threatening Mueller, threatening Rosenstein, threatening and improperly pressuring Sessions, trashing the special counsel`s investigation with blatant lies.
He has been doing everything he can to do two things. Number one, to discredit the special counsel so that when they come out with a report and people don`t believe it. And number two, trying to intimidate him and trying to intimidate the special counsel and to trash him.
I think that trying to intimidate the special counsel will not work. Hopefully the country, when the special counsel comes out with a report, it will be very well documented, and I`m sure it will, out of a lot of evidence, and whatever it says people will believe it.
MELBER: Let me ask you. When you say not work, what do you mean? Do you mean that federal offenses may also have state criminal liabilities so justice will be served that way? Or you mean that there will be mass pardons but there will be some other sanction?
NADLER: No, I wasn`t addressing pardon. I said hopefully the pressure -- I don`t the pressure on Rosenstein and Mueller will work. And must, I mean, one constitutional crisis would be if the President fired Mueller or Rosenstein.
MELBER: But what about pardons? I mean, what we are seeing is all these signals, no?
NADLER: He is signaling that he will use pardons and he is signaling potential witnesses. Now, that man may not work because he doesn`t have to and might not necessarily deliver the pardon in the end.
If I were Michael Cohen, I wouldn`t depend on that especially given what we know about how badly Trump has treated Michael Cohen according to Roger Stone and several other people. But it might work. And the misuse of pardons as the firing of Mueller could create a real constitutional crisis.
MAYA WILEY, FORMER COUNCIL TO NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I definitely agree that we don`t know. It`s certainly possible, we certainly are seeing the pressure tactics. Career prosecutors do not back down because there could be a Presidential pardon. It`s not the way it works. So this sort of Roger Stone threat of this is what the President is sending a signal that this is what he might do if you go after crimes that are not related to Russian collusion, meaning, you know, that could include Michael --
WILEY: -- Cohen, thank you. But I think what that really says to us is the extent if there`s a crisis it is really only, if there is a crisis in Congress. Because if Trump were to go after Rod Rosenstein or any of the other career prosecutors by trying to get rid of them to continue to try to obstruct justice, then the question is, what does our other branch of government do? Does it step in and say now that`s a bridge too far as we have had signals of, even though they haven`t passed legislation to protect the special counsel, which I believe is the right thing to do.
MELBER: Right. And nelson, I want to play some more from Eric Holder because I think the larger context, of course, is that Donald Trump is putting out all of this pressure. You have these reports that the federal prosecutors in D.C. are actively investigating Andy McCabe who became a very public enemy of the President as a potential witness to obstruction. They are now reportedly interviewing James Comey about McCabe`s deputy. That`s exactly the twitter-driven division in the FBI and the DOJ that Trump wanted. These very public flirtations with pardons for individuals that as we and others have documented, all overlap with the kind of crimes or allegations facing his own people seems to be building a set of ways for him to cash this out. And then of course the ultimate is Rudy Giuliani basically saying, forget what they find. Forget even if they find felonies that reach the highest office in the land. We ultimately think we can win an impeachment fight. Which is an incredibly negative, cynical, one might even say guilty-sounding argument and then Holder builds on that. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLDER: If you pardon somebody, well, that means that are -- they don`t have much to worry about with regard to whatever the pardon covers. But if Bob Mueller, for instance, wants to take a pardoned person, put that person before a grand jury, that person no longer has the ability to say, I`m going to invoke my Fifth Amendment right. That`s been stripped away. You have a pardon. And that person then becomes a perfect witness for the special counsel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Nelson, your analysis.
NELSON CUNNINGHAM, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: So I think we have to bear in mind two things. One, where is Trump going? And I think he is getting ready for some kind of showdown or a crisis that could happen as early as this summer, and I`ll get to that in a second.
But first, let`s look at what he is pardoning people for. He pardoned Scooter Libby who purged himself an obstructed justice by lying to investigators. He is threatening to pardon Martha Stewart who went to jail for lying to investigators and obstructing justice. He pardoned Dinesh D`Souza who engaged in campaign fraud, just naked campaign fraud. He wanted to give a political friend $20,000. He can`t give that much, so he funneled it through some friends. He pleaded guilty. And the last thing, he wants to pardon Rod Blagojevich, who, as you pointed out, gave away his office for as much as $100,000 which was what he demanded of Jesse Jackson`s campaign.
He is sending the message that you know what, lying to prosecutors, not that big a deal. Obstructing justice, not that big a deal. Campaign violations, not that big a deal. Mixing your office and money, not that big a deal. So it`s both a message -- I think, clearly, it`s a message to these witnesses, but it`s also a broader message that some of the basic tools of prosecutors, perjury prosecutions, obstruction, the basic operation of the law just isn`t that important. I think he`s doing this to condition himself for a clash that will come, as Holder says, quite soon.
I wrote a piece in "Politico" this week that suggests as soon as this summer when Mueller finishes his investigation, puts out a report, and that report winds up in Rod Rosenstein`s hands, that is the moment that Trump is building toward. How does he keep Rosenstein from releasing that report?
MELBER: And so, in that analysis you just laid out, which is quite useful and educational, does it matter whether Bob Mueller knows a lot more than Donald Trump?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, the prosecutor in the case like this always has the advantage. What we know about the investigation right now is a fraction of what Bob Mueller has known for months and months and months. Mueller goes in, he has had every email. He has had every written document. He has interviewed hundreds of witnesses. He has obtained massive amounts of tax returns and bank statements. This is just the way a prosecutor works. He goes into any confrontation with Trump knowing much more than Trump does.
CUNNINGHAM: And that is, of course, an advantage for the prosecutor.
MELBER: And I think, Maya, that goes to a key part of this face-off which ultimately is about Trump and Mueller circling each other. And I wonder, I don`t know if you have been following the Drake (INAUDIBLE) feud this week, but I wonder if Trump is more in the Drake role, hitting very hard but not actually knowing what Pushatee (ph) or Mueller has in return. If there are things Mueller knows that he is willing to release later, that could still detonate the Trump-Drake figure here and that it is dangerous to hit hard if you don`t know what the other side has.
WILEY: Trump is reckless so I don`t think Trump is thinking of it and that is strategically way. I think he is thinking about it absolutely with sense of buildup to how am I creating both the public perception that this is a ridiculous investigation in the first place. But secondarily, the message to folks, I will pardon you, don`t cooperate with Mueller even if he comes after you and even if he gets you, I have got your back.
The reality here, though, is he doesn`t have anyone he can pardon on Russian collusion. Not sure how he is going to send that signal. But I think the point is, they are not really circling each other. What`s happening is Donald Trump is circling Mueller. Mueller is just putting his head down and getting the job done. And that`s why he has got 19 indictments.
NADLER: I think with all the trashing that the President has done, 13 active Democrats, et cetera, the fact is the Mueller investigation has gotten 19 indictments, a few guilty pleas of some substantial people in Trump`s campaign and there have been no leaks of that investigation.
NADLER: All we know about the investigation is what`s come out in court and what they have released. And I think that when Mueller is ready with a report and he gives it to Rosenstein, Rosenstein has proven himself, I think, throughout this patriot, and he is going to make sure that report is released to the public.
MELBER: That it will not be squelched.
NADLER: That is will not be squelched.
MELBER: To Mr. Cunningham.
NADLER: Yes. I think that report should be released. It should be released and that`s key. One of the things Trump is trying to do, and Giuliani and all these people, is to poison the public mind against Mueller and everybody in the FBI and the DOJ so people don`t believe the report.
NADLER: But depending on the strong evidence in the report, et cetera, I think it`s going to be probably a very devastating document. Where you go from there, we will see. But again, remember, he can`t pardon people who perjure themselves subject to a pardon. He can do another pardon later, but if he pardons them for what they`ve done to now and they are then called in and testify without being able to invoke the Fifth Amendment, that`s another problem for him.
MELBER: But then it`s just pardons on pardons on pardons.
NADLER: That starts getting beyond probably even the ability of Republicans in Congress to rationalize.
Congressman Nadler and Maya Wiley and Nelson Cunningham, thanks to each of you.
Coming up, the special that I mentioned you can see on your screen. Rob Reiner and Anthony Scaramucci together live for the first time on THE BEAT. Why would you want to miss that?
Also, what those Michael Cohen threats may say about how Trump does business and what else is on the tapes.
Later, Trump prosecutors busted for actually hiding tapes that could have proven the innocence of protesters in the resistance arrested at the inauguration. An important story we want to bring you.
And then yes, the fallback Friday takeover. Yo! MTV rap, it`s a 30th year anniversary tonight. Dr. Drae and DJ Scribble are here.
I`m Ari Melber. You are watching on MSNBC.
MELBER: Tonight the White House under new pressure to explain whether Michael Cohen is still even Donald Trump`s lawyer and the leak of this tape not helping.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, TRUMP`S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: I know you. I don`t need your opportunity, you little (bleep). I know exactly who you are and I know exactly what you do. And I know exactly the story you plan on writing. So I`m warning you, tread very (bleep) lightly because what I`m going to do to you is going to be (bleep) disgusting. Do you understand me? Don`t think you`re going to hide behind your pen because it`s not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look --
COHEN: I`m more than happy to discuss it with your attorney and with your legal counsel because mother (bleep), you are going to need it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Cohen once promised right to tell all book where he would say no issue is too big, sticky or odd ball for him to tackle. I saw it all handled it and still do. The newly tape though doesn`t look isolated.
Consider another example where Cohen picked a fight with college students who were trying to prank Trump. One of the students got a fiery call from Cohen and relate how he said, I`m going to come up to Harvard. You are all going to get expelled. If this photo gets out, you will be out of that school faster than you know it. I can be up there tomorrow. You will notice there Michael Cohen combining a little threat with an open schedule.
Now the students went on to tell "60 Minutes," this was terrifying. And if you are student, you see how it could be. He thought Cohen might be, quote, crazy enough to fly up there. Cohen also reportedly tried to quote "fix an issue" when Trump reportedly lost, and this is true, this role to Mark Cuban in "Sharknado 3."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, your policy was to save the sharks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody attacks my house. This time it`s personal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: A producer relaying that Cohen went quote "ballistic screaming over the phone, how dare you? Donald wanted to do this. We are going to sue you. We are going to shut the entire show -- I think I meant movie -- down."
I`m joined by Gwenda Blair. She has interviews Donald Trump numerous times over the years. And she is the author of "Donald, the candidate." And Vox`s Liz Plank is here as well who has covered many parts of some of these stories involving Mr. Cohen.
I don`t know where to begin, so Liz, go ahead.
LIZ PLANK, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, VOX MEDIA: I mean, that tape actually makes tony Soprano (ph) sounds like Mother Theresa. And it makes clear that Michael Cohen was never really Trump`s lawyer. He was Trump`s fixer for two reasons.
First of all, in the rest of that tape he says you cannot rape your spouse, which is obviously not correct.
MELBER: Believe to be untrue in most states including New York.
PLANK: Absolutely. So he doesn`t understand the law and he is also not speaking in, you know, legal speak, he is speaking in threat. And so, he doesn`t sound like a lawyer. He sounds like a mobster.
GWENDA BLAIR, TRUMP BIOGRAPHER: Sounds like, is, don`t know. I think everything goes back --
MELBER: You know what? And we are done. We are done.
BLAIR: You can go back to the school of Roy Kohn with a little bit even further back to the school of Fred Trump, Donald`s dad, who told his sons to be killers at all costs. So Donald grew up with that idea. It doesn`t matter what you do, just win.
MELBER: So you say that, and you know, like many of these types of stories, there is a part of it that is ridiculous to the point of bizarre and funny, and then there`s a part that is very much not funny, and we are straddling that line. You say it sounds like there is Jay Goldberg was Trump`s key top litigator before Cohen, and even he when he had him on, because we make an effort to get all sides of people with primary experience. Even he talks on this show, take a look, about Cohen basically being very close to helping Donald Trump allegedly deal with the mafia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Do you think Michael Cohen`s job at times was to keep the mob away from Donald Trump?
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP`S LAWYER: Well, if he says he was a fixer, then the question is what did he fix and what needed fixing? What needed fixing was relations with the mob and the shakedowns by the mob so that there would be no strikes and there would be labor peace at all costs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: How does that match your reporting of Donald Trump?
BLAIR: School of Roy Kohn, whatever you can get away with. That`s what he learned from Roy. I mean, he already knew this, but Roy took it to the next level. When I was doing my book, a really interesting conversation with a real estate lawyer and a guy named Eugene Morris who happened to have been Roy Kohn`s first cousin and had worked for Fred Trump but it was also Roy Kohn`s first cousin. And they had introduced Donald to Roy, or was early on and getting the two together. Eugene told me afterwards, Donald, it was like he was attracted to the fact that Roy had been indicted, that this guy had really taken it, you know, that far.
MELBER: You are saying he liked it.
BLAIR: He liked it. According to Gene Morris, who was Roy Kohn`s first cousin and he was around the two of them, and he said he thought Donald really went for that. And immediately, as soon as he met Roy Kohn right after that, the department of justice served the Trump organization with a complaint about housing discrimination. Fred Trump had had a similar complaint in Cincinnati, made it go away quietly. Not Donald. Next day they had a press conference --
MELBER: No, they were very aggressive.
BLAIR: Blasted back --
MELBER: And on that, I want to play one more part of the Michael Cohen tapes. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: You write a story that has Mr. Trump`s name in it with the word rape and I`m going to mess your life up for the rest -- for as long as you are on this fricking planet. I`m going to turn around, you are going to have judgments against you for so much money, you will never know how to get out from underneath it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: This one may have been overhyped and Cohen had his hands full with the presidential campaign. But if these other tapes come out that the feds have, how many other situations like this over the years do you think pose exposure?
PLANK: That`s a really, really good question. And it really shows how misogyny and the intimidation of reporters really work in concert in the administration. This story obviously regards Donald Trump`s treatment or alleged treatment of his ex-wife. We also have the Stormy Daniels story which you have covered extensively. Trying to shut up or pay women not to speak about their relationships with Donald Trump. And then even Michael Cohen. This was during the campaign, a lot of people forget the whole Megyn Kelly debacle and him retweeting threats to Megyn Kelly.
MELBER: Right. Which she said she was at a different company at the time. She is now at this company, of course, as full disclosure. But she said that led her to having to get extra security measures, that those threats led other people to take those steps at that reach that level.
PLANK: Yes, their real-life consequences to this. And as a reporter, (INAUDIBLE). THEN Donald Trump would, you know, insult us and that had ripple effects to his audience. They would throw things at us, follow us, and so this is really serious business.
MELBER: Gwenda Blair and Liz Plank, thank you both for your insights on this story and all of its permutations.
Up ahead on THE BEAT, I mentioned, Yo! MTV raps is back on MTV. We have Dr. Drae and DJ Skribble taking over fall back today. But first, you are looking at live pictures at THE BEAT. Rob Reiner and the mooch, you can see them talking -- look at Rob. Look at that. They are getting along so well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we are getting along, but on the air he`s going to hit me terribly.
MELBER: But you know what, Rob? This is not planned. But can you say something nice about the mooch before we get continue?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He throws a very nice dinner party which he did in Las Vegas.
MELBER: Sounds like the swamp, mooch. Can you throw it back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love the guy. We were together on gay rights initiative. We worked very hard on that together.
MELBER: Well, look. I want you guys to walk away from yourselves towards the table. We are going to debate what Trump is doing for and to America hen we comeback in 60 seconds.
MELBER: Another big story tonight, a special conversation on the Trump presidency live with two unique voice right here. The legendary Rob Reiner, filmmaker, actor and activist and Anthony Scaramucci who served as Trump`s White House communications director. They are going to talk to each other and not at each other.
And this morning, Donald Trump took some credit for good jobs numbers as well as low unemployment, a trend that when you look at the statistics did start years ago initially under President Obama.
Also, Donald Trump imposing new tariffs on steel and aluminum as imports from the EU, Canada and Mexico. They are allies there. And people say they may retaliate.
Also, open questions about Donald Trump in whether he is moving ahead or stalling out on some of the many big goals he set.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Everybody is going to be covered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Universal healthcare.
TRUMP: I am going to take care of everybody.
We are going to rebuild our infrastructure. We have bridges that are falling down.
When it comes time to negotiate the cost of drugs, we are going to negotiate like crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe in raising taxes on the wealthy?
TRUMP: I do. I do. Including myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Rob Reiner and Anthony Scaramucci, thanks for being here together.
ROB REINER, MEMBER, ADVISORY BOARD, COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIA: It`s good to be here.
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Happy, happy Friday.
SCARAMUCCI: He`s got a great movie coming out, a great movie.
REINER: Shock and Awe. But let`s talk -- it is interesting you played that. You play -- listen, all candidates make promises and they don`t keep them, right? That happens with every -- I mean, you played all the things, the infrastructure and better healthcare and they didn`t get.
But, and so, you would say that`s not -- is that a lie. Is not a lie. What -- he just made a promise he couldn`t keep. What I want to know from Anthony is that -- and you are both -- you know what I know Anthony from -- you know, he received runs SkyBridge Capital, he had a big thing in Vegas we had a nice dinner together and he`s like a straight shooter kind of guy.
What I want to ask you because you know Donald Trump. I met him one time, I don`t know him that well. You know him better than I do. Why do you think that he lies all the time? Why is that? Why does he lie like every minute?
SCARAMUCCI: So this is sort of the point I was trying to make in the green room -- you know, there`s different shades of that. Now, you`re going say "OK, he`s trying to parse that I`m really not. He is an embellisher of stories, he is a macro-wave surfer if you will. And so, he will tell a big tale and a big story, and so now the media is conflating that with absolute lying. He`s not sitting there saying in those three or four sound bites the things that he didn`t mean.
REINER: Well, that`s what I`m saying.
SCARAMUCCI: Every one of those sound bites --
REINER: Yes, I`m trying to differentiate a campaign promise from going out and saying something that is demonstrably not true.
SCARAMUCCI: So, I understand of -- but when the media says -- so when the media says he said 3,001 lies. OK, well, we look at it, the guys that were in the campaign and people that I`m close to, and we see it as the macro storyteller that he is. And you guys get upset because he`s the president, but in Hollywood, if you`ve got a book that`s a non-fiction book and you`re going to write the story into a screenplay, some of it gets conflated.
REINER: Right, but at Hollywood -- that`s Hollywood. This is -- that`s we`re making up stories.
SCARAMUCCI: I understand.
REINER: But when a guy -- when a guy says that the FBI is spying and infiltrating my campaign, and you find that, that is a total and utter lie, you`re creating a narrative that is making it difficult for people to accept the truth when the truth comes down.
SCARAMUCCI: OK. So, we always got a picture of McCabe on the desk here. And so, we know that the Inspector General is -- the Inspector General report something out.
MELBER: Can we get that out? That`s true.
SCARAMUCCI: I don`t know -- I don`t know him personally, but what I do know is that there were some things that happen there that were not with the Inspector General thought.
MELBER: Well, before we go deep -- before we go deep and we can go right deep into the Inspector General court which would make a great Hollywood script you can option it. Let me -- let me say this, I`m going to go back to you --
SCARAMUCCI: I defended Rob Rosenstein. I don`t tell --
MELBER: He`s asking about the deceit. Do you think Donald Trump tells the truth most of the time, part of the time, or most of the times not the truth?
SCARAMUCCI: OK. So this is what happens when you come on a show like this, I`m getting boxed right now. And with you guys want me to say is, "Oh, no, he`s a liar" and say anything. I know him for who he is.
SCARAMUCCI: OK, and his base knows him for who he is, OK? And so, there`s an expression sometimes, it doesn`t translate perfectly in English. But sometimes you let a story get embellished and the facts go a little bit away from the story, that`s what the president has done.
OK, when the president talked about the Trump Tower in 1980, he had it as scintillating spectacular Tower. And then, it ended upon Vogue magazine Paris, and he`s a big dreamer, he`s got big ideas, and he`s an entrepreneur.
And so, so what happens though, in the media, he`s the president of the United States. He`s very unorthodox, yet very unorthodox communicator. He`s not communicating the way the other 40. Released the ones in recorded history of communicated, and people are super upset about that but --
MELBER: You know about that, the argument there being that he -- that he pops it up.
SCARAMUCCI: Here`s my -- here`s my achieved -- that content -- that content style.
REINER: Well, you can puff it up -- you can puff it up if you want. You can puff it up if you want if you`re in the real estate business and you`re overselling something or whatever. But, he`s now the president of the United States, and when he says something, it has to mean something and it has to be true.
You can`t just say that we are -- we had no contacts with Russians, there is no -- you know --
MELBER: Well, Reiner, I`m going to cut it. What I`m going to do Russia right now?
REINER: No, I`m not talking --
MELBER: Let me do this, let me do a chart -- let me do --
SCARAMUCCI: I didn`t think we have a contact with Russia or not, I didn`t see it.
MELBER: Let me do -- let me do a little economic roar shark for both of you.
MELBER: Because the chart about the hook up you felt boxed, and I appreciate you sharing your feelings with me, you know that I will always.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, you, there is no couch here, though. And by the way, I tell my shrink I was there for 954,000 seconds. It may -- it makes -- it makes me feel better.
MELBER: So, all how do you look at it? I want to put up something that will also box Rob because it is something that--
REINER: OK, I love to be box.
MELBER: Here you go. Donald Trump may be benefiting from what Barack Obama started in the unemployment rate. But this chart tells a story that Obama started something good if you think that unemployment dipped there is good, right? More people getting jobs and it`s continuing under Trump. So, starting with you and then, turning to you, can you acknowledge that this is a good thing happening during the Trump administration?
MELBER: Can you acknowledge that it started actually under Obama? Starting with you.
REINER: Yes, of course, it`s a good thing. It`s a good thing that we had over 200,000 jobs created last month, those are all good things. And the unemployment rate that is going down, that`s a good thing.
MELBER: Because sometimes it seems like, and I`m going to say this, you people in Hollywood, and you know who I`m talking about.
REINER: Yes, me.
MELBER: Literally you.
MELBER: And you know I like you.
REINER: I know you do.
MELBER: Cannot admit a single thing positive that`s happening in this country during the Trump administration. There`s a perception of that. So, right now, you`re standing, I`m saying no to that this is good that, that is positive.
REINER: No, no. That is positive that -- you know, the one thing that we look for is our wages going up, are people going to have more in their pockets, those things are a matter, and if you don`t have health care, you -- it`s been more it`s going to come out of your pocket. If gas prices go up, more is going to come out of your pocket. If you have a tax cut that isn`t very substantial, you`re going to wind up with less, and so, those thing are not good.
MELBER: And you admit that -- and you admit that something that Donald Trump clearly has a big problem with. For whatever reasons we can explore that he is building domestically on all of these successes that Barack Obama built over eight years. Especially on the economy, he seems unable to acknowledge that which makes it very hard for him to speak factually about these numbers.
SCARAMUCCI: I`ll go one step further than that. OK, during the economic crisis, President Obama had to make some crisis management decisions and by in large, he got almost every one of those right.
You were on the brink of an actual international calamity. And so, he got just about every one of those decisions right. And so, that calmed down the world and then he got the help from the Federal Reserve. Where I think, President Trump does deserve credit, and I think this is where the Obama economy was a little constrained, frankly, was in the regulatory process.
OK, the layers of regulation and the lack of trust on these businesses because there was some demonization post-crisis taking those shackles off. Provided that they`re not overtipping into under regulation, OK?
REINER: But, I think those regulations --
SCARAMUCCI: I`m for -- I`m for a free market, but with regulation, because I think really people --
REINER: I think the regulation part of it could be good if you have a tax plan that actually helps middle-class people, but what you have is all the deregulation is deal towards big business and the tax cuts were all geared towards the wealthy and big business. You had -- you know, corporate tax rates cut, you had -- you know, capital gains cuts, all those things happen but what didn`t happen is anything -- you know, a redounding to the middle- class guy. So I`d like to know what he put in place economically --
SCARAMUCCI: I`m going to help to that --
REINER: -- that helped the middle-class guy and the regular guy. What, which one help there?
SCARAMUCCI: I love this guys. I`m going to -- I`m going to help him out.
MELBER: OK, go ahead -- go ahead.
SCARAMUCCI: So, such some of that is perception because there`s about $263 billion that got downloaded to middle-class people through the form of increased wages and bonuses.
I think what is -- what people are at odds on, on -- but that are Democrats, is that it wasn`t enough. I mean, that was Nancy Pelosi`s thing which she said they were crumbs or something of that and people got upset because it`s $2,000 of disposable income on somebody that`s making $50,000 a year is a lot of money.
But you have to remember what the President had to do is he had to go against two forces, the establishment on both sides that are not in love with them. And so, what happens in Washington, you don`t like to see how these bills are made but it was very (INAUDIBLE), to use a little bit of (INAUDIBLE).
REINER: (INAUDIBLE), you see his Italian but he`s using English word.
SCARAMUCCI: You have to do that in New York. So it was a little bit of a (INAUDIBLE), OK?
SCARAMUCCI: And so, -- and so, we`ll let`s say something else. OK, and I think, well, also what the president didn`t realize is that once the Obamacare went into place, whatever the flaws are with Obamacare, and you might love Obamacare, but even people that made Obamacare recognize there are some flaws
REINER: They needed to be fixed, but what he did was he didn`t repeal and replace, he just destroyed.
SCARAMUCCI: OK but -- OK but --
REINER: He`s destroying Obamacare and people are losing their health care. And people are -- you know, are losing their Medicaid.
SCARAMUCCI: OK, but -- OK, OK, not 100 percent. OK, so some of that is true on the fringe, and that`s what`s got everybody so excited, not a hundred percent. But if the president said on 60 Minutes that I want to make the health care more affordable, and I want to make the health care better, he can do that --
REINER: But what has he done to do that?
SCARAMUCCI: He can`t because he`s up against the special interests and he`s up against the lobbyists.
REINER: Well, if you`re --
SCARAMUCCI: The number one things you do is you just increase the supply curve if you`re an economist, OK? And you incentivize people become doctors. Again, you bomb boarded 40 million people.
MELBER: That`s it, are you going to finish the chart?
REINER: Oh, he just put out there. He`s playing hangman here. He doesn`t have -- there`s nothing here, he`s playing hangman.
SCARAMUCCI: No, no, it`s right -- it`s right there. You just flatten out the supply, you increase the supply of doctors. You had a G.I. Bill after the Second World War, which the American middle class benefited from. You need a medical G.I. sort of a bill.
REINER: Right, but there`s a lot of things -- there`s a few.
MELBER: Let me play -- let me play something that builds, you make a lot of interesting points and what you`re doing that sometimes, quite frankly, some of your former colleagues in the White House really struggle to do is you`re working with actual policy arguments to make your points. Which we appreciate and we welcome here.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, I don`t need to -- I don`t need to attack people. I mean, already the policy.
MELBER: Right, and here`s the problem that Donald Trump has, and it`s a problem that comes out of his own mouth which is the very numbers that he was hyping last night and today, the Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers are the same numbers that he degraded throughout the campaign we didn`t like him. And this is a problem that is bigger than left to right or whatever else, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I hear 5.3 percent unemployment that is the biggest joke there is in this country. That number is so false.
And a real unemployment is anywhere from 18 to 20 percent, don`t believe the 5.6, don`t believe that.
They show those phony Statistics. The unemployment number as you know is totally fiction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: This fiction phony number is what he`s selling today. Doesn`t he have to retract that to be taken seriously by anyone?
SCARAMUCCI: OK, OK, so, can I go first on this? So, what he was referring to is there`s a number of different ways to slice the unemployment, the number that is posted up by the Bureau of Labor Statistics called U-1 number that was at 3.8 percent. The U-6 number is still in the high seven, it`s OK? And so, what he was referring to back then at the peak of the crisis, it was over 18 percent to U-6 numbers.
MELBER: I`m familiar with the other counting but he`s saying the numbers he`s telling you they were phony, you know that.
SCARAMUCCI: So, OK, if I was his character which I`m obviously not, he could rectify that by saying, "Listen, the U-6 number was 18."
REINER: But he`s not going to do that. And he`s not going to that because he`s not going to tell the truth. He is -- he is -- he has an aversion to the truth. And he did something else today which is against the law. He released these numbers before he was supposed to --
MELBER: He alluded to them -- he alluded to them.
REINER: Well, but he alluded to the fact they`re going to be a good number --
MELBER: Know that the precision support he eluded to them.
REINER: Right. And do we know for a fact that he didn`t tell anybody who`s close to him that these numbers going to be and do we know what they did with we don`t know?
MELBER: We don`t know, now we have 30 seconds, we want to end on a high note.
SCARAMUCCI: He`s much better in person that he`s on Twitter though.
REINER: I do love you.
MELBER: Yes, but a lot of talk -- there`s been a lot of talk, some would call it --
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, you love his beautiful smile, not as angry, it`s looking for --
MELBER: Some call it speculation about you launching a television show with Michael Avenatti. You`ve both thrown some public cold water on that.
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, yes.
MELBER: And so, I guess the final question is will the show be with the two of you?
SCARAMUCCI: Yes, I would do that because I`ve got a hair advantage on him.
REINER: I got -- I got the better hair.
SCARAMUCCI: He`s got a little bit a high advantage, he`s got a little bit of more perfect head. I got way better hair, but the heads more perfect. But I would do that with him, he`s a little bit smarter than me, but I think I could take him in the show.
REINER: Well, he`s -- but he`s, smoother, see? Look, he wears a suit and he goes like this and he touches me a lot. He does that thing that Macron did with Trump, he`s always touching him.
SCARAMUCCI: He`s choosing the time when he`s kissing him off the air. He`s choosing the time, it`s so good.
MELBER: If the power, does he give you the power handshake?
REINER: Not yet. He yank me follow like this. Here`s Trump -- here`s Trump, I`m Trump now.
SCARAMUCCI: I want to say one last thing now. Where we are on agreement is that we both work very hard on the Marriage Equality Act, OK?
MELBER: I know that.
SCARAMUCCI: We both -- were very hard on Prop 8 together, and I -- we were instrumental in the New York thing, and so, I`m very proud of that accomplishment together.
MELBER: Anthony Scaramucci, Rob Reiner, first time on THE BEAT, we hope not the last, thank you very much. Up next, as promised, a very special "FALLBACK" to legends from the hip-hop show you MTV raps take over "FALLBACK FRIDAY".
MELBER: And now on THE BEAT a special edition of "FALLBACK FRIDAY." And yes it`s a takeover edition to "FALLBACK" we have two legends from the great hip hop show Yo! MTV Raps which of course tell foot raps on the map for many people in the 80s and 90s. MTV is relaunching the series with a kick-off concert Friday and I am joined by the original co-host of Yo! MTV Raps, Doctor Dre, known for his work with the Beastie Boys, Public Enemy and Original Concept, plus, DJ Skribble is here. He`s an original from the pioneering show and is working on the relaunch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go with ice skates and hot rollers on Yo! MTV Raps today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to kick it off right now. DJ Skribble on one and two. We`re going to start with the master of rap game right here. (INAUDIBLE) is in the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Yo! MTV Raps, thanks for being here you guys.
DOCTOR DRE, RAPPER: Hey, nice to have you on.
MELBER: You`re making me happy and I think you`re going to make some people at home who grew up on you happy. This is -- this is exciting. We`re going to get to what you guys are doing but first Dr. Dre who needs to fall back this week?
DOCTOR DRE: Who needs to fall back in a big way? We got to get Roseanne to fall back. She got to fall back off the Twitter, she got too fall back off her thought process, she got a fall back. And we`ve got a fall back and help her though. We can`t -- we can`t separate her and isolate her. We have to let her know she`s a part of the community. Her last latest comments are helping keep things separated.
MELBER: DJ Skribble, sometimes we see you in the background back on the ones and twos on Yo! MTV, but here you`re in the foreground --
DJ SKRIBBLE, AMERICAN DJ: Yes sir.
MELBER: And you honor us with your presence.
DJ SKRIBBLE: Thanks for having me.
MELBER: Who do you want to fall back?
DJ SKRIBBLE: The New York City school system. Well, actually the Board of Education system in general because I have two children with learning disabilities and they are in the middle on that gray area where -- they have dyslexia. My first son was originally diagnosed with autism but then he`s came off the spectrum but where they put them in the -- in the mainstream school, they don`t fit, but they don`t fit in a special segregated school either. So there`s no systems really in place. They have services and stuff like that. We have to fight the Board of Education every year to get the funding because it`s not a state board approved school.
MELBER: Any other fallbacks this week?
DJ SKRIBBLE: Roach milk.
MELBER: I heard about this.
DOCTOR DRE: Yes, it`s a real thing.
MELBER: And there`s a lot of nutrients.
DJ SKRIBBLE: It`s I have a full -- it`s the one pet peeve that I have it`s disgusting.
DOCTOR DRE: The NFL. And I`ll be really simple about that. Americans have the right to protest. It`s our First Amendment right. We have a right to protest. So how a league all of a sudden can sit there with the owners and say no they don`t have a right to their constitutional right in the First Amendment Bill of Rights is beyond me.
MELBER: How did founding Beats Music with Apple change your life?
DOCTOR DRE: It didn`t because I didn`t found Beats.
MELBER: I`m just playing.
DOCTOR DRE: I know that. I know that. No, I know --
MELBER: It was a joke.
DOCTOR DRE: You didn`t let me finish, but it was OK.
MELBER: You want to do it again?
DOCTOR DRE: You did it with a punch line. See, I used to do comedy.
MELBER: All right, I`m going to continue this Dr. Dre. I`m going to (INAUDIBLE)
DOCTOR DRE: Drip, drip, drip, drip slash back Friday.
MELBER: I`m going to run it back and say Dr. Dre -
DOCTOR DRE: Yes?
MELBER: How did founding Beats Music change your life?
DOCTOR DRE: Oh it changed my life. It made me say I need a check from grapes.
MELBER: And how often do you get misrecognized as Dr. Dre on paper, on the internet --
DOCTOR DRE: All the time.
DJ SKRIBBLE: That`s happening now with the show. I mean it`s like why is Doctor Dre at the bottom of the list. I`m like it`s Dr. Dre --
DOCTOR: Excuse me Skribble, do you want to answer it?
DJ SKRIBBLE: I was just trying to -- I was just trying to help you.
DOCTOR DRE: No, no, I don`t -- I don`t need --
DJ SKRIBBLE: It`s just the way like him, you know.
DOCTOR DRE: Great to have you on the show. Thank you very much.
MELBER: What does Yo! MTV raps mean today?
DOCTOR DRE: Yo! MTV raps means it was an iconic, legendary show that really outlived its inspiration in the beginning because the first host of Yo! MTV Raps were Jam Master Jay and Run-DMC and that happened at the Nassau Coliseum at the Def Jam Show. It was Def Jam tour I believe it was where Public Enemy was there, Rob Base, DJ Jazzy Jeff.
MELBER: Doctor Dre, I`m shaking your hand right here.
DOCTOR DRE: Yes sir, Ari.
MELBER: DJ Skribble.
DJ SKRIBBLE: Thank you, brother. Thanks for having me on.
MELBER: Thank you both.
DOCTOR DRE: Thank you, Ari.
MELBER: We`re already seeing some reactions rolling in. I`m seeing them on my phone. what do you all think of Rob Reiner and The Mooch on THE BEAT? Do you want to see them back here again or not and you want to see them launch their own show? You can tell us on Twitter or on our Facebook page THEBEATWITHARI. Let us know. Maybe we`ll update next week and we will be right back.
MELBER: That does it for THE BEAT.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END
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