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Melissa Harris-Perry, Transcript 10/11/15

Guests: Ned Sublette; Grace Meng; Julian Zelizer; Robert George; ChristinaBeltran, Vivian Nixon, Marjorie Liu, Jamie Broadnax, Drew Grant

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: And Comicon in all its feminist glory. But first, is there anyone who can bring this house to order? Good morning, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. And the House of Representatives is in chaos with no idea who its next speaker will be. On Thursday, house majority leader Kevin McCarthy who was supposed to be a shoe in to replace John Boehner as house speaker stunned everybody by announcing he would not seek the speakership. McCarthy said he couldn`t get to the 218 votes necessary to win. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), MAJORITY LEADER: The one thing I found in talking to everybody, if we`re going to unite and be strong, we need a new face to help do that. So nothing more than that. I feel good about the decision. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: So who will be it be in 218? Well, nobody really knows. Party leaders like speaker Boehner and former presidential nominee Mitt Romney are reportedly asking if not downright pleading with Congressman Paul Ryan, Romney`s 2012 running mate, to seek to speak. They say only Ryan with his budget slashing prowess and national profile can win over both the party`s moderates and its right-wing. But all Ryan can say to their pleas is, not it. Not it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. PAUL RYAN (R), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE BUDGET COMMITTEE: My statement stands. I haven`t changed anything. I`m just -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: So that means -- RYAN: Nothing changed. Right now I`m just going to catch my flight so I can make it home for dinner. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Well, at least publicly he is saying no. There are reports that amid all the praise, Ryan is now reconsidering. But there is really no other contender that stands out. The congressmen who have thrown their hats into the ring like Daniel Webster of Florida who only sponsored one bill this Congress are all pretty low profile. And speaker Boehner was planning to split at the end of the month, but now says he`ll stick around until a new speaker is chosen. And who knows when that will be. Sorry, John. So who is responsible for all this chaos? Well, we here at MHP show have a theory about one man in particular -- this man. Don`t start tweeting me angrily saying that I`m blaming President Obama for the house`s dissent into chaos. That`s not what I`m saying. What I`m saying is this, McCarthy was derailed by one group of 38 or so hard right representatives, the house freedom caucus. To its members, McCarthy would have been another Boehner. Just too darn accommodating to the president. They said they would all vote against McCarthy. So even if every other Republican voted for him, it would leave him short of the 218 need for a majority. Now, here is the thing you really need to know about the freedom caucus. Four-fifth of its members have been elected since President Obama took office on the anti-Obama, anti-Obamacare tea party wave and its aftermath. A third were elected in the tea party heyday of 2010. And its members include David Brat who defeated house majority leader Eric Cantor in a shocking primary win by claiming that Cantor was not fighting President Obama`s agenda hard enough. This is Eric Cantor who led house Republicans to oppose just about every last thing the president tried to do starting the very day the president was inaugurated. Cantor was Boehner`s prot‚g‚ and very likely would have been the next speaker if Brat hadn`t stepped in. Without President Obama, there`s no Obama backlash. And there`s no world in which John Boehner, Eric Cantor and Kevin McCarthy are somehow too liberal to lead house Republicans. So, you know, thanks, Mr. President. Joining me now, Christina Beltran, professor of social and cultural analysis at NYU, Robert George, associate editorial page editor at the "New York Post." Congresswoman Grace Meng, Democrat representing New York`s sixth district and Julian Zelizer, professor of history and public affairs at Princeton University and the author of "the fierce urgency of now, Lyndon Johnson, Congress and the battle for the great society." OK. So let me start with you, Congresswoman, since you actually work in this maddening little location down there in D.C. What do you see as kind of the root causes of the particular leadership chaos? REP. GRACE MENG (D), NEW YORK: Well, I was fortunate enough to have a front row seat to all the chaos that was going on in Washington, D.C., and it was truly amazing and almost historical week. I think it`s really just emblematic about something that has been happening and has continually been bubbling up. The stagnancy caused by these 40 or so members, these freedom caucus members, who essentially even in the pledge for what they want the next speaker to adhere to, one of the lines is to literally a promise to derail Obamacare. So 60-plus votes wasn`t enough. They want to continue what they`re doing. HARRIS-PERRY: So this idea that there is, you know, just under 40 members of a party who are at this point causing chaos in the entire house, you know, I keep wondering if this is the moment. I`ve been wondering it for five years. So maybe it`s not. But is this the moment when we finally see that partisan realignment that we were actually due sort of 20 or 30 years ago? Is this the moment when the Republican Party splits along this sort of fraction line? JULIAN ZELIZER, AUTHOR, THE FIERCE URGENCY: Not yet. I mean, I don`t think there is as much of a difference between where the freedom party is and where a lot of the leadership is in the GOP. And I think we talk about this great civil war going on. They`re all pretty conservative. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, right. ZELIZER: So part -- HARRIS-PERRY: What makes it so stunning, right? Like Eric Cantor, John Boehner, too liberal for the freedom caucus. ZELIZER: So part of how right do you go? And part of what the freedom caucus wants is to strip the speaker of his power. And they`re demanding a series of reforms right now saying you take the job, but you only take the job if you`re going to have even less control of the rank and file. And so that`s a hard deal to swallow for a lot of the leaders. HARRIS-PERRY: Have we seen something like that historically before? ZELIZER: In the 1970s, Democrats did it. Then the committee chairs were the ones with power. In 1975, the Watergate babies passed a series of reforms and they give power to the speaker. So now they want to reverse what happened in the 1970s. ROBERT GEORGE, ASSOCIATE EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, NEW YORK POST: Well, I think A lot of this has to do with it`s a sort of a - first, it is a lot of this have to do its process. Yes, they are all very ideological. But Boehner, however, stripped actually some of the members of the power, some freedom caucus members who had either chairmanships or subcommittee chairmanships for not voting on procedural matters. And so, that`s one of the reasons, as you said, they want to strip the speaker of the power to do that. But the thing is if you were a leader, if you are speaker, you need to figure out ways to discipline your members. That`s true whether you`re a Republican or a Democrat. And for them to be doing this, I think, is kind of overstepping their bounds. HARRIS-PERRY: So it then -- it does make me wonder then because I have been wondering, why wouldn`t you want to be speaker of the house, right? I mean, I get it. I get that it`s kind of a tough time. But if you are somebody with presidential aspirations, it`s kind of like Jordan with -- like give me the damn ball. Like just don`t you want to lead? GEORGE: It`s because you -- it`s because somebody like a Paul Ryan has presidential ambitions is why he wouldn`t want to be speaker. I mean, there is only one person in history who managed to go from president to -- HARRIS-PERRY: We don`t let congressmen as presidents anyway. He is still have to go through VP. CHRISTINA BELTRAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: But I mean, I think this speaks to a larger - and actually, this is a longer history of this. I mean, I always think of Goldwater`s conscious of a conservative. And when you read that, there has been a long history of the Republican Party turning on its establishment. And I mean that text says almost as much about Eisenhower as it does about Democrats. So I mean there is actually -- you have 1994 and the contract with America. There is a long history here of going after their own leadership. But I also think something we have to really think about is that this is the freedom caucus doesn`t measure political success right now in term of legislation passed, but in terms of leadership taken down. And so their sense of political agency is really on breaking things. It`s a logic of sort of throwing a wrench in the works. That`s when they feel powerful. That`s when they feel empowered. And it`s the pleasure of breaking things. So who wants to get in the middle of that? Why would Paul Ryan want to get into that? HARRIS-PERRY: Well, because leaders lead. I mean, so the answer for me is because a job is hard, give it to me. BELTRAN: The most vital part of the electorate is the tea party, the most energized segment. HARRIS-PERRY: But congresswoman, is this what your experience is particularly with the freedom caucus numbers that it isn`t about sort of a policy agenda they`re trying to pass, but actually about the seizing governing. MENG: I agree. This is a group that does not believe in the traditional function and role of the Congress and of government. However, I think that the moderate Republicans as the centrist can use this opportunity like we did at the end of last week where 218 Republicans and Democrats signed that this charge petition we got together. And this hasn`t happened since 2002. And that was tremendous. And if we can do that on other pieces of legislation, like comprehensive immigration reform -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Export and import bank. MENG: Correct, yes. HARRIS-PERRY: I`m also just feel like poor Boehner now, he has to like stick around the job longer. We need to get him, you know, free John Boehner bracelets. I promise more. Up next, Donald Trump took credit for Kevin McCarthy exiting the speaker`s race. But we have a different theory on a different presidential candidate behind the whole thing. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: On Thursday, when house majority leader Kevin McCarthy pretty much blew the collective mind of the political world by dropping out of the speaker`s race, he was asked about the time he said this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), MAJORITY LEADER: Let me give you one example. Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee, what are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: That was McCarthy answering Sean Hannity`s question about what his party has accomplished in Congress. And so in choiring minds want to know, could that moment have had anything to do with his decision to step aside? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MCCARTHY: That wasn`t helpful. Yes. I mean, I could have said it much better. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Because Hillary Clinton was able to take McCarthy`s parent admission of politicizing at the Benghazi committee and turn it into a weapon against not only McCarthy but the whole Republican Party. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This committee was set up as they have admitted for the purpose of making a partisan political issue out of the deaths of four Americans. I would have never done that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Do you think it should be disbanded? That`s what Nancy Pelosi has called for. CLINTON: Well, I have to say that now that they`ve admitted it`s a political partisan committee for the soul purpose of going after me, not trying to make our diplomats who serve in dangerous areas safer, that`s up to the Congress. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Hillary Clinton en Fuego! I mean, she was just about it, right? We haven`t really seen - but you want to make Hillary Clinton angry, get a special commission like that. Right-wing, you know, conspiracy. And all of a sudden, this very strong candidate we haven`t seen emerged. GEORGE: Yes. This wasn`t the only issue that took down Kevin McCarthy. It was a big issue because you don`t give -- you don`t give your enemies a sword. And that`s exactly what -- HARRIS-PERRY: And show them exactly where to stick it. GEORGE: No. That`s exactly right. And for those of us over the years who criticized Hillary Clinton for her, you know, vast right-wing conspiracy kind of things, you think great. You know, you manifesting on exactly what - exactly what she did. I will say this. HARRIS-PERRY: Just because you`re paranoid does not mean that people are not out to get you. GEORGE: There is another issue, too. Back in the day when I was working for Newt Gingrich, Newt was a very, very smart guy and very, very tactical. He would occasionally just, you know, go over the line in making certain statements which would then come back and bite the other members on the butt. And they would have to kind of defend what he had to say. And I don`t -- I think some members didn`t want to go into that direction again where you have -- if you`re a speaker, you have to speak very, very clearly about what the aims of the conference are. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. In fact, let`s take a listen to some of the Republicans talking about precisely where they want Ryan to be speaker which I think is reflective of the comments here. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: If Paul Ryan got into the race, of course I would support him. He would be the kind of person that I could get excited about. MCCARTHY: Paul is looking at it, but it`s his decision. If he decide to do it, he would be an amazing speaker. REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: He has stature that nobody else has right now. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did everything except carry his gym bag this morning trying to get him to do it. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. I mean, it sounds to me, Julian, like that is a reflection of an idea that whatever else is happening, you still -- the speaker needs to carry a certain gravitas. ZELIZER: For sure. You know, since the 1980s, the speaker has been a public figure. It`s not just about back room deals and whipping the vote. And so he or she is the party spokesperson. And Kevin McCarthy, you know, there is one article in the "Washington Post" that this is the best thing to happen to the Republican Party as he couldn`t whip the vote. He couldn`t get votes as majority leader. He`s not good on television. So now there is actually an opportunity to get someone like a Ryan who could be much more effective in the public domain as well. HARRIS-PERRY: Is there any chance -- I always feel like sometimes you think critique things that happen in the media and I`m like that is just not how it works, right? And so, whenever I`m talking about Congress, there is part of me that thinks I might be getting this wrong because I haven`t served time. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. HARRIS-PERRY: But I guess one of the questions I have is whether or not this is all genuinely happening or if some of this is stagecraft in order to produce, for example, a Ryan speakership which is, you know, kind of don`t throw me in the briar patch which that is precisely where you want to go. MENG: It`s true. I think what I`ve been seeing on the media is pretty accurate about - and you can see the development of the events as they`re happening on hour by hour on Capitol Hill. It`s real life Republican civil war. It`s a real life soap opera drama unfolding the - in front of our eyes. And so, you know, time will only tell in the next few hours, next few days what will happen. ZELIZER: The real house members of Capitol Hill. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Well, so, honestly though, it does make me wonder because it is not a small thing to run for the U.S. House of Representatives. It`s expensive. It`s time consuming. It`s extraordinarily difficult on your family. And then to show up and have it feel like that, it always makes me wonder if, you know, to have someone like John Boehner say, you know, I`m out. I just can`t anymore. It makes me worried for the kind of quality democracy in a broader sense. BELTRAN: Yes. I think it is a real issue because I mean there is no sense of leadership here. There seems to be such a pandering and anxiety about the electorate. But in the way they behave in term of how they talk about governing or not governing, is actually produced the very electorate they fear. Like there is a way in which they made this monster by promising that they can just stop, you know, the Democratic process. So they are kind of playing on the civic illiteracy of a lot of voters and then kind of producing a really dangerous electorate but then they pander back to. HARRIS-PERRY: We are going to take a quick break. But I want to come right back on the topic of Hillary Clinton`s strategy though because she may have just boxed out Joe Biden from the race. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Tuesday, the Democratic presidential candidates will finally face off in their first debate. The one person getting the most attention in the Democratic primary race right now, won`t even be on the stage. Vice president Joe Biden is spending the weekend huddled with his family in Delaware trying to decide if he will or won`t run. And there are enough signs pointing in either direction that at this point it really is anybody`s guess. What is even more unclear is what aspects of the base he can tap into to drum up support. After all, Hillary Clinton had already picked up endorsements from nine governors and at least 30 senators and more than 100 from the House of Representatives, including influential congressman John Lewis. Hollywood is also jumping in line. Katy Perry announced she will rally supporters at a Clinton campaign stop in Iowa later this month. She joins stars like Beyonce, Amy Fuller, (INAUDIBLE), Carol King and Jennifer Lopez who all said that they are ready for Hillary. That`s on top of Bernie Sanders whose campaign last month pulled out a letter signed by more than 100 celebrities who are feeling the burn and Sanders` success could be pushing Clinton further left. She`s come out against keystone, pushed further left than Sanders on guns. And this week she flipped on the Trans Pacific Partnership, the TPP. So Biden thought he could make a play to Clinton`s left as almost as if the current front-runner has infectively boxed him out before he`s even had a chance to step on the court. I mean Katy Perry and John Lewis? Is she now unbeatable? BELTRAN: I think that`s a lovely combination. It`s a 1-2 punch. You know, I think one of the really interesting things with Biden is that he`s incredibly likeable. And people feel this fondness for him and after what he`s been through. But at the same time, our policies right now are so polarized and so divisive that I just think that it`s not about compromise and finding a middle ground. It`s really about build majorities that can defeat majority and the minorities. I mean if you want to win on climate change, if you want to win on women`s reproductive rights, if you want to win on gun issues, it`s not about forging a compromise as much as defeating a far right minority. So I think in that sense, Hillary can sort of talk about herself as -- she`s a terminator. I mean, she can describe herself as relentless and sort of I`m the general for this battle. This is going to be a war and I`m the general. I don`t think she can frame herself that way. HARRIS-PERRY: But doesn`t it to pan a little bit on where do we think the battle is? So a recent Quinnipiac poll was showing in Florida, in Ohio, in Pennsylvania, vice president Joe Biden and oddly enough, Ben Carson are actually the best general election candidates. We saw some similar data from a somewhat less reputable organization out of North Carolina and some other southern spaces. I`m wondering if we actually are confused about where the battleground is. MENG: Yes. ZELIZER: Everyone likes the guy who is not there - who is not running. And Biden actually ran twice and didn`t do well. He wasn`t a good candidate. He had many gaffes and he didn`t energize any electorate. MENG: But he wasn`t Obama`s vice president. ZELIZER: No, he was. And obviously, that`s a great asset. But I don`t think Biden is polling now isn`t the Biden we`ll be thinking about after he--. BELTRAN: They could build on him. His Senate history is something they`ll go back and really look at. GEORGE: I think there are two things you can take a look at. First of all, keep and remember people like Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan both ran twice before they finally pulled through. So there is that. And look. One area that I think on the Democratic side where I think Biden may have an edge over Hillary and may do to her what Bernie Sanders has done on economic issues is actually foreign policy. If you go back, Biden was the one who said, you know, Iraq should be, you know, split in three and things like that and was against the war whereas Hillary was supportive of it. She is possibly vulnerable in the Democratic primary. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. This was the article in the "New York Times" yesterday. They were saying exactly this. That the one place where Joe Biden can come in and split is around foreign policy. And given that there is some sense of consensus about the Obama administration having lots of successes around foreign policy, right, that he can kind of -- on your point about gaffe though, I have to play this moment of the vice president making a joke about secretary of state and then recognizing he had done a bad thing. Let`s take a moment. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We need to move. And if I don`t move, I`ll be demoted to secretary of state or something like that. That`s a joke. That`s a joke. That`s a joke. Thank you. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: He was like, no, no, no, wait a minute. What did I just say? And, yet, that`s also it feels like to me in a moment when Donald Trump is leading the Republican side, it may be that what we think of as gaffes is now actually the things that make an electable candidate. MENG: Well, make no mistake, the comments that are coming out of the mouth of Donald Trump and Ben Carson are not mistakes. They`re intentional plans. HARRIS-PERRY: That is a very good point. MENG: Joe Biden is a great man. He is loved as a vice president. Everyone adores him. Hillary Clinton is on the right track. She is on the right side of the issues that she needs to show what her stands are for the Democratic primary which is the first hurdle that all of them have to clear. She`s on the right side. She is someone who is not taking any vote, any constituency for granted. HARRIS-PERRY: You know, I keep thinking that Hillary Clinton constitutes far and away the best primary candidate in the Democratic race. Right? For a wide variety of organizational reasons and everything else. But I keep being worried that come general election time, so you know, you`re point about that Biden in his previous runs had not been able to energize a base. But similarly, the ease with which Hillary Clinton has been under mind by various folks over the years with key constituencies among Democratic general election voters including black women, young people. You know, right now young people are feeling the burn and I just like I`m worried she can`t do it. GEORGE: Even with McCarthy`s Benghazi gaffe and so forth and her aggressive push-back on that, her numbers kept falling over the last couple of weeks. And you saw she`s underwater in a number of key swing states. And that`s a big problem in the general election. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. BELTRAN: I actually do think, I mean, I think that`s a concern. It`s a real one. But I also think that this election is so much about who you`re against. This is not a romance election. This isn`t like I love my candidate. I think this is an election about I`m scared of the other guy. And so I think in that sense, this is going to be about voting against them. And I think this sends her as kind of relentless. I think she`s a terminator. No matter what you hit her with, she comes back. And I think people will sort of say, you know what? She`s a fighter. And we need a fighter. I do want to have lunch with her? Maybe not. I don`t care. HARRIS-PERRY: I`ll tell you who I don`t want to have lunch with, I do not want to have lunch with Dr. Ben Carson and the Popeye`s, that`s for sure. When we come back we`re going to talk about why. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Last week was a busy one for Dr. Ben Carson. The Republican presidential just saying that brought a joke. The presidential Republican presidential candidate took a break from the campaign trail and made the rounds giving several interviews to promote his new book. Now, they came an opportune in time as Carson continues to rise in the polls. But each event brings new controversy especially regarding his various comments about guns and the recent shooting in Roseburg, Oregon. On Monday, during a Facebook Q&A, he replied to one question writing, there is no doubt that this senseless violence is breath taking. But I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away. The following day Dr. Carson appeared on FOX News where he was asked what he would do in a situation similar to what the Oregon shooting victims faced. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not only would I probably not cooperate with them, I would not just stand there and let them shoot me. I would say hey guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can`t get us all. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take action? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Later that evening, he was back on the network where he elaborated on his remarks. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a time of great stress like that, one might not know exactly what to do. And to judge them, to sound like you`re judging them -- CARSON: Not judging them at all. But, you know, these incidents continue to occur. I doubt that this will be the last one. I want to plant the seed in people`s minds so that if this happens again, you know, they don`t all get killed. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Then on Wednesday, came an interview with Sirius-XM radio. Carson recounted the story in which he says he had a gun pointed at him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: I had a gun held on me when I was in a Popeye`s organization. A guy comes in and puts the gun in my ribs and I just said, I believe that you want the guy behind the counter. He thought I was -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way? CARSON: In that calm way. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. CARSON: He said OK. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Then on Thursday, it was on to CNN whether Dr. Carson invoked the holocaust when asked about gun control. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: The likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people were armed. WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, THE SITUATION ROOM: They have a powerful military machine, as you know, the Nazis. CARSON: I understand that. BLITZER: They could have go in and they did wipe out whole communities. CARSON: But realize there is a reason they took the guns first, right? BLITZER: So you believe that if they had guns, maybe it could have been eased. Is that what you`re saying? CARSON: I`m telling you, there is a reason that these people take the guns first. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: I just -- I have nothing. ZELIZER: It`s become the say anything primary. And, you know, I think the phenomena, the horrendous remarks and either remarks we`ve seen from various candidates, there is no barrier anymore to what candidates are saying. Part of this is driven by twitter environment where these candidates know they have to get the pop just like headlines. They`re looking for. That but part of it is just an internal check on what is legitimate and what is not legitimate. And we saw some of this with Trump. We have now seen it with him. And I think the party has to kind of take hold of this. HARRIS-PERRY: So Congressman, let me ask about that. Because, you know, Julian, I`m with you that there are clearly structural incentives now built into our media and social media for kind of aggressive overreach. But then I also take very serious what you said, congresswoman, that these do not appear to be gaffes. These appear to be reflections of very clearly thought out ways of seeing the world. And, in fact, perhaps seeing Dr. Carson across that whole week sort of repeating it in different spaces, looks like, no, that`s what he thinks. MENG: I know this is politics. But part of what a leader says and does especially a candidate for the office of the president of the United States is to be a good role model. To say things that show your conscience and what you would do under stress. Now whether it`s the words that he said at Popeye`s which is basically kill the other person or his advice on what to do at a shootout, would he have given that advice to the little children from Newtown? HARRIS-PERRY: Actually, yes. So hold on for a second because let`s play that. Because that was -- right. So let`s play what he said about kindergarten. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: I personally, if I had a little kid in kindergarten somewhere would feel much more comfortable if I knew on that campus there was a police officer or somebody who was trained with a weapon. I would feel more comfortable. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The teacher? CARSON: If the teacher was trained in the use of that weapon and had access to it, I would be much more comfortable if they had one than if they didn`t. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Kindergarten teachers. ZELIZER: I think, you know what? The congresswoman said is true. This is a message about opposition to gun control. It comes at a moment we`re having this debate because of the shooting. And he says this in dramatic ways. He says it in ways which just got him a bunch of clips on TV. But he is saying a policy which is deeply rooted in Republican policy is right now. BELTRAN: I know. I agree. And this is something that is really important. The politics of gun control right now, I was saying before there is about building majority that can defeat minorities. When the politics at the right of this point is really about guns, I mean any effort to do any kind of baseline level gun control is a form of dictatorship, akin to Nazi Germany coming and disarming the population. If that`s the debate we`re going to have about gun control, then no kind of legitimate reform is even possible. HARRIS-PERRY: I want to interject one other aspect it to. Because wherever one sits on gun control, in terms of policies, let`s just say that the immorality of a leader in particular, really of any person saying I had a gun pulled on me and my response was to redirect that person to another innocent bystander is so -- like I don`t really know how you talk about having values or morals or ethics when your response to -- like again, if you are the leader, then your response is to stand in front of innocent people, not the to put innocent people in front of you! GEORGE: I don`t have -- I have less of a problem with Ben Carson having an absolutist position on the second amendment. That`s not the real problem here. Something that what Ben Carson`s problem is, and it`s actually surprisingly something that`s a problem that Donald Trump does not have. Ben Carson doesn`t know as a first time candidate, he doesn`t know how to get into the media position and then stay on message. He ends up going off on these weird fantasies bringing in the gun control and the holocaust and things like that. Donald Trump, you know, say what you want about him. When he goes -- when he goes on, he stays on his message. He may say some outrageous things that people kind of shocked at. He knows what he wants to talk about. HARRIS-PERRY: I can understand why from a strategic position saying, you know, not being able to stay on message is a problem. But I got to tell you. This is the actual substance of what Dr. Carson said that I find most distressing. Christina and Robert will be back in our next hour. But I want to say thank you to the congresswoman Grace Meng and to Julian Zelizer. Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush is weighing in on another key topic, voting rights. Here`s what Jeb Bush had to say when asked at a campaign event in Iowa whether he supported reauthorizing the voting rights act. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that if it`s to reauthorize it to continue to provide regulations on top of states as though we`re living in 1960, because those basically when many of those rules were put in place, I don`t believe that we should do. That there is dramatic improvement in access to voting. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: No. No, sir. Actually, the trend is going in the opposition direction. According to the Brenan center for justice, since 2010, 21 states have put new voting restrictions in place. But there is some good news in voter expansion. Yesterday California governor Jerry Brown signed a law that would allow Californians to be automatically registered to vote when they go to the DMV to get or renew a driver`s license. That could have major implicates in the nation`s most populist state for the six million Californians who are eligible to vote but are currently unregistered. The process will be offered after work on a new registration data base is completed which should be around June of next year, right around the time of California`s presidential primary election. Up next, what it means to be a real black president. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Media mogul Rupert Murdoch set the Internet on fire with his tweets Wednesday in support of GOP presidential contender Ben Carson, tweeting quote "Ben and candy Carson, terrific. What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide and much else?" Murdoch followed up the next day with apologies, no offense meant. Personally find both men charming. Also this week, "New York" magazine asked quote "as the historic administration nears its final year, African-American leaders` debate, did Barack Obama do enough for his own community? His own community? Raise your hand if you think this article is an assessment of how Hawaiian schoolchildren or Ivy League undergrads or university law professors of residents of the state of Illinois have fared during the Obama administration. No hands? Of course not. Because you and I both know that "New York" magazine has defined the president`s own community as African-Americans. And they, like Mr. Murdoch are measuring President Obama using a metric of blackness. Here we go again. Back in 2004 while campaigning against then state senator Obama, Allen Keys, that paragon operation authenticity told ABC`s George Stephanopoulos quote "Barack Obama and I have the same race -- that is physical characteristics. We are not from the same heritage. My ancestors toiled in slavery in this country. My consciousness who I am as a person have been shaped by my struggle, deeply emotional and deeply painful with the reality of the heritage." So authenticity, suspicious followed senator Obama to the president primary contest against Hillary Clinton prompting responses like that of columnist Stanley Crouch who wrote, when black Americans refer to Obama as one of us, I do not know what they`re talking about. While he is experienced some light versions of typical racial stereotypes, he cannot claim those problems as his own nor has he lived the life of a black American. If we then end up with him as our first black president, he will have come in the White House through a side door." Side door? Look, it is flawed political logic to assume President Obama has unique responsibility for addressing America`s legacy of racism and racial inequality because he`s black. Indeed as a black man, he does have the historic opportunity to simultaneously occupy the nation`s highest office and to wholly embody blackness with all the dis-privilege and tumultuous history and disquieting symbolism. And the President Obama has done that repeatedly. When he outlined the tenants of liberation theology in Philadelphia, when he stooped to let a preschooler rub his head just so the young man could see if his president had hair like mine. When he reminded America I could have been Trayvon Martin, when he is saying amazing Grace over the slain bodies of the Charleston nine. But these symbolic opportunities are different from making a claim to a special policy responsibility. I mean it is a little hard to imagine Mr. Murdoch asking whether or not Mr. Trump or Miss Fiorina can properly address the racial divide. And I still can`t find the "New York" magazine piece produced about the racial legacy of President Bush or Clinton or Reagan in the final months of their administrations. Yes, President Obama`s affordable care act, federal minimum wage increase, extension of fair housing rules and sentencing reform have disproportionately and positively affected black communities. At the same time, his administration has been unable to erase the yawning unemployment earnings and wealth gaps affecting black folks. And this is the lesson of the Obama years. Even though president Obama is black enough and does genuinely care about black people, he has not been able to simply magically fix racial equality in America. It turns out that it is basically criminally naive to believe that systemic racial inequality, reinforced by centuries of entrenched white supremacy and perpetuated through complicated interlocking systems of oppression can be wiped away if only we would elect a president black enough to fix it. Addressing America`s racial divide is not the unique responsibilities of its black president whether that be Mr. Obama or maybe someday Mr. Carson. Untangling the intergenerational evils of racism rests firmly with every president, every elected official, and every citizen. The question isn`t whether President Obama`s black enough. The question is whether or not we are. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Last week, Coby Burn, a high school student in Texas noticed something odd in his world geography textbook. A caption on the section of immigration said that the Atlantic slave trade quote "brought millions of workers to labor on southern plantations." Well, once his mom, Ronnie Dean Burn, caught wind of it, she put it on Facebook creating a social media firestorm that pushed the textbook`s publisher McGraw Hill educations to take action. McGraw-Hill, one of the largest text book publishers in the country issued a statement saying they would change the digital version and provide corrected textbooks upon request, admitting that they made a mistake. But it wasn`t their only mistake. The idea that the slave trade brought millions of Africans to the United States is in fact false. The true number was closer to 389,000. So how then did the country`s population to enslave people come to reach four million by the dawn of the civil war? Breeding, systemic forced breeding used to destroy black families and to increase the capital of the ruling slave holder class. It`s a part of the American story that often falls by the way side but a new book places it at the very center of our nation`s history. Joining me now is Ned Sublette, co-author of the book "the American slave coast: a history of the slave breeding industry." Thank you for being here. This text created a circumstance for one of my producers who was reading through it to just write across it, nothing is clean. Everything is slavery, right? Just that sense that the centrality of the economic aspect of slavery to the contemporary American system. NED SUBLETTE, CO-AUTHOR, THE AMERICAN SLAVE COAST: That`s right. Slavery is at the center of American history. It`s not a sidebar. But people often talk about slavery as though it were only labor. And slaves were not just workers. They were merchandised. They were collateral. They were credit. They were money. HARRIS-PERRY: That idea of human beings being money, being actual currency, talk about what that looks like because you talk about it in depth in the text. SUBLETTE: Well, you know, an economist would tell you there are three categories of -- three things that something has to -- three classes that you have to satisfy to be money. Means of exchange, retains its value over time. Unit of account. Slaves were often used to settle a debt when there was no gold or silver around. So they were a means of exchange. They weren`t the most common money. But you could always sell a slave if you have to. Retains the value over time. That`s why slave owners had to have the children. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. And so this -- this purpose around breeding and sort of the Jeffersonian piece of it, you write Jefferson framed ending importation of persons. So ending the slave trade as a humanitarian act and many historians treated it that way, but it was not. Ending the African slave trade was protectionism on behalf of Virginia. It kept out the cheaper African imports so as to keep the price of domestically raised people high. I mean, it is an appalling sentence in the sense that we thought about kind of domestic importation in this way around humans. But it`s also so critical to see that. SUBLETTE: That`s right. That`s right. I think Jefferson who wrote at the age of 77, I consider a woman who brings a child every two years as more productive than the best man of the farm. What she produces is an addition to the capital or his labors are disappearing mere consumption. HARRIS-PERRY: How much when we talk about slavery do we fail to think about its gendered nature and the very specific experiences of horror than in slaved women experienced? SUBLETTE: This is where race meets gender meets the logic of capitalism. Enslaved women were expected to be pregnant constantly as early as possible, as long as possible until their bodies gave out from child bearing. And it was expected that the children could be sold. A child, an enslaved child is worth $75 or $100 at birth depending on place and time. That didn`t mean that a baby was going to be sold. There was no market in babies. But it meant that the slave owner was worth $75 or $100 more on paper. And could borrow that much more which was so to say new money was created. So the world from 389,000 Africans to four million enslaved April can Americans in 1960 was itself an economic expansion. HARRIS-PERRY: The book when you sat down I was saying the book is enormous. It is literally hefty. But that is a physical manifestation of how hefty and weighty this issue is. Thank you for the text, "the American slave coast." Thank you to Ned Sublette. And coming up next, the 6,000 federal prisoners who will soon be released, but then what happens? And the sheoes (ph) rocking comi-con this year. There is more Nerdland at the top of the hour. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST, "MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY": Welcome back. I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. As the Obama administration continues to forge a new course on criminal justice. The issue of our overcrowded prison population has reached a flash point. Last week Senate Republicans and Democrats introduced a broad measure that would make sweeping changes to criminal justice in the United States. Sentencing reform remains a key issue in the presidential election and this year both the President and the Pope visited prisons. This week, another key development. The Justice Department is preparing to release roughly 6,000 inmates from federal prisons over a three day period later this month. Now the release are the result of new guidelines by the U.S. Sentencing Commission which in 2014 voted to retroactively apply an amendment reducing the penalties for many nonviolent drug crimes. So, who are those soon to be released inmates? According to the U.S. Sentencing Commission data report, they are mostly Black and Hispanic men, many in their mid-30s, about seven percent are women. The average time served is nine years. But some have been behind bars for as long as 25 years. Seventy nine percent of the cases involved either cocaine or methamphetamine. And they are most likely to be returning to southern states led by Texas with more than 2,000 released inmates. After their release, about two- thirds of them will go to halfway houses and home confinement before being put on supervised release. But about a third of the inmates are actually foreign citizens and are likely to be deported. Though the large one time release is an important step in our depopulating prisons, the long term impact is yet to be seen. Just last week on our show, we featured an MSNBC original report on a former inmate using his crucial first three days of freedom. Now very rarely do we get to see a newly released civilian adjust to life outside. Here`s Gregory Finney leaving Louisiana`s Angola prison after 16 years. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s beautiful. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s beautiful. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That beeping, is letting me know I don`t have my seat belt on. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t doing that when I left. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, that`s a remote that lets you in the car and also as long as it`s close to the car, it can start the car up. And this is the backup camera for folks who can`t back up. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you can see what is behind you? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This must be a very expensive car? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a regular car, bro. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Mr. Finney is far from alone in his effort to re-enter. More than 10,000 ex-offenders are released from U.S. State and Federal prisons every week. And more than 650,000 ex-offenders are released from prison every year. A five year study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that nearly 68 percent of prisoners released were rearrested within three years and many state prisoners also leave prison in debt. According to a Brennan Center for Justice report by 2004, approximately one-third of county jails and more than 50 percent of state correctional systems had instituted, quote, "pay to stay fees," charging inmates for their own incarceration. Joining me now, Cristina Beltran, professor of Social and Cultural Analysis at NYU. Robert George, associate editorial page editor the New York Post. Ari Melber, MSNBC`s chief legal correspondent and the Reverend Vivian Nixon, executive director of College and Community Fellowship. Her organization helps women with criminal histories and their families to gain access to higher education. How big a deal is this, Ari? ARI MELBER, MSNBC CHIEF LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: It is significant and that it is something of a cease fire in what we`ve seen in a federal war on drugs for many years. As you point out, the numbers don`t suggest any drastic difference in the approach when you say someone who is in on like most of them cocaine or methamphetamine, a large enough amount to have a lengthy sentence. You say instead of a roughly 11 years you get roughly nine. So that change isn`t going to change their lives. But the step from a policy perspective shows we are for the first time arguing a generation going in a different direction. HARRIS-PERRY: Six thousand sounds like a huge number. But in fact, it is actually not in the sense that many thousands of Americans are getting out of jail or out of prison on a regular basis. We often don`t think about the process of re-entry. I wanted to listen to former Attorney General Holder testifying in front of the Sentencing Commission about this for a Second Amendment and then I come you to, Vivian. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ERIC HOLDER, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: In recent years new fewer than 17 states supported by the department`s justice reinvestment initiative and led by officials from both parties have directed significant funding away from prison construction and toward evidence-based programs and services like supervision and drug treatment that are proven to reduce recidivism while improving public safety. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: So, have you seen those changes on the ground, are there resources for this kind of, sort of at the back end, in order to reduce recidivism? REV. VIVIAN NIXON, EXEC. DIR., COLLEGE AND COMMUNITY FELLOWSHIP: There are more resources recently. Those resources are largely geared to making sure that people get access to job training, transitional jobs, transitional housing. Substance abuse treatment. But that`s been going on for many, many years. The game changer, my organization focuses on, is postsecondary education which up until 1994 was available while people were incarcerated, giving them the ability to re-enter society with some type of real knowledge, educational background that would help them get jobs. HARRIS-PERRY: In fact, that great story about the prison debate team that beat the -- NIXON: -- that was incredible story this week. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Incredible. NIXON: Because when people get opportunity to get education, they`re mind is no longer on survival in the street. It`s about how can I use this new found education to provide a long term life in the community that`s really meaningful? So while these initiatives are great, I hope that you ask later whether or not we`re doing enough because I think there is more that we can do. HARRIS-PERRY: Clearly. And, in fact, my biggest concern, I mean, are we saying, okay, this is a kind of moment where we`re seeing a change. It`s not everything. You`re saying, okay, we do have some more resources. But they`re not quite enough. At the same time, my biggest fear is that right now there`s this discourse about policing and there`s a discourse about arising crime and in an election year and, again, 6,000 people is actually tiny but I just keep thinking if I`m on the right, I am tracking everybody because what I want to be able to do is say they`ve released these criminals on to the street. CRISTINA BELTRAN, PROFESSOR OF SOCIAL AND CULTURAL ANALYSIS, NYU: Right. Right. HARRIS-PERRY: From a pure political -- BELTRAN: Think about what happened with Donald Trump. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Right. It`s already in your inbox. Right? Somebody is -- they`re looking for the next -- BELTRAN: Donald Trump right away that, that was the whole idea. That one undocumented person that committed a crime. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-mm. BELTRAN: So, I mean, there are still a deep logic of deportation and then the attention that we have to think about here. And the fact that some of these folks are going to be deported. HARRIS-PERRY: A third. BELTRAN: And there`s a story there of the ongoing criminalization of populations and the kind of punitive logics. The thing that really concerns me is, are we going to invest in people afterwards? I mean, one reason why conservatives are so committed to this right now is because it`s cheaper. And so, the question of, can we actually have a public commitment to something? But I do think higher education is key in it. At NYU, we`re doing a prison program through my department and through Gallatin. And it`s a university wide program. But it`s being spearheaded by my colleague Michael Singh (ph) and my department. And it`s one of those really exciting moments where prison education is becoming a social justice issue that is really resonating with multiple populations. And it`s really exciting. ROBERT GEORGE, ASSOCIATE EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, NEW YORK POST: Keep in mind, the one deportee -- the one deportee that (INAUDIBLE) -- it was a murder in San Francisco, so it`s another highlight. But that was a major issue. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. GEORGE: But you`re actually right that what`s kind of interesting on this is that the President is sort of in a sense the trailing actor in this, because some of this changes were happening at the state level even Texas which of course has a reputation of, you know, being the big executer in the country. They actually started changing some of these issues in terms of -- HARRIS-PERRY: But I think it matters for the President to show up in federal prison and, I mean, you know, Reverend if we were together at the White House recently when the vice HBO thing came out about the president and, like there is a language coming out of the Department of Justice coming out of the White House and surprisingly coming out of both of the republican and democratic sides saying, we see something here. GEORGE: Mike Lee and Corey Booker and the Senate have both been leading this. You know, Lee who is like on the far right in the Senate works with Ted Cruz on a lot of the things. Working with Corey Booker. So, it`s kind of -- it`s somewhat ironic that given all of the anarchy that`s going on in Congress the last few years that prisoner reform is the one area that they`ve actually been able to come together. NIXON: It`s the one place. Yep. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. NIXON: The thing is that while we are coming together, we`re coming together on -- in a very limited way. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. NIXON: Now, I appreciate everything that has been done. HARRIS-PERRY: Yep. NIXON: I think the Obama administration has been very good on these issues. But this conversation about only the nonviolent -- HARRIS-PERRY: Yep. NIXON: -- drug offender is so misleading. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. NIXON: Six hundred and fifty thousand people coming out every year. They`re not all nonviolent drug offenders. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. NIXON: And when you look at the data in sections, actually the people who recidivate least are the people who have the most violent crimes. Because often one time crimes of passion or self-defense or -- HARRIS-PERRY: And I also just want to point out, Ari. I mean, one of the things that we have talked about is that idea of violence. We immediately presume murder, rape, sexual assault or something. But often it`s just a legal designation of, so, if you take somebody`s backpack but you push them down while you do it that, that can constitute what would then look like violence. MELBER: Or a capital murder charge where you were in a car and someone else got out of that car and killed someone which is terrible and that person you might want in for a very long on murder. But we have a federal system right now where if you sat in that car while that happened inside, you`re charged with. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Uh-hm. MELBER: So when we say under the law you`ve been convicted of a violent crime, it does not actually mean that you as an individual did an act of violence. Interestingly to your point, that`s something Senator Hatch was saying that he wanted mental requirements in this criminal reform bill to deal with some of that. That is something that conservatives have said, well, if you don`t have the mental intention of that act, maybe you shouldn`t be on the hook for it. There`s a lot more to do for sure. HARRIS-PERRY: All right. Before we go to break though, in Cleveland, the Cuyahoga County prosecutor`s office has released two reports in the Tamir Rice investigation. The two separate reports were done by witnesses chosen as experts by the Prosecutor Timothy McGinty. They found that Officer Timothy Lowman acted reasonably under the law when he shot and killed 12- year-old Tamir Rice last November. Rice had what turned out to be an air or pellet gun. The entire encounter took less than two seconds and the prosecutor says, his office is, quote, "Not drawing any conclusions from these reports." And it will ultimately be up to a grand jury to evaluate. The prosecutor also says his office has commissioned additional reports and those will also be released in the public at some point. Stay right there. Because up next, a case that sparked national outrage. Why did a judge berate a domestic violence survivor? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Video has surfaced of a Florida judge berating a domestic violence survivor for failing to show up to a previous court hearing to testify against her alleged abuser. The video was taken during a July contempt of court hearing before a Seminole County Judge Jerri Collins. Now, back in April the alleged victim called police after she says her husband choked her, came at her with a knife and slammed her head into a microwave oven. The husband was to face trial but the alleged victim who is the mother of a one-year-old child did not appear to testify. Here`s some of her exchanged with the judge and we should note that the woman`s voice has been altered to protect her identity. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUDGE JERRI COLLINS, SEMINOLE COUNTY: Why didn`t you show up to court? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- my anxiety and I was just -- COLLINS: You think you have anxiety now? You haven`t even seen anxiety. We had a jury, six people there ready to try Mr. (beep) who has a prior criminal history of domestic violence. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Now the woman continues to explain that she had attended a class for domestic abuse survivors and dropped the charges in the attempt to, quote, "move on with her life." And here is the judge`s response. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: I hereby find you in contempt of court and sentence you to three days in the county jail. (CRYING) Turn around. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: So we want to engage this video in part because it feels to me like it goes -- like the one who was celebrating this release of federal prisoners and this idea of nonviolence, but even three days in a county jail for a woman who is a domestic violence survivor with a one-year-old at home who presumably did not expect to go to jail when she arrived at court. So who knows where her one-year-old is in that moment. Just everything about it is -- feels revealing about the problems in our system. NIXON: For me, it reveals how addicted we are in this society to punishment. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. NIXON: It`s really part of the air we breathe. And the work that we`re doing in the criminal justice system right now doesn`t feel to me like it`s about public safety at all. It feels about identifying people we don`t like, people we`re mad at and punishing them. And even people who don`t deserve to be punished, this woman didn`t -- did all right. So she didn`t show up to court. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. NIXON: But she`s a human being and there were real extenuating circumstances here that the judge totally ignored. HARRIS-PERRY: And it felt to me, honestly, that we say that, like people were mad at and the fact this is about contempt of court, not about any belief about an act of violence or drugs or anything on her part. NIXON: Yes. HARRIS-PERRY: That it feels to me like had some of the interactions that we have seen in tapes with some officers where the issue is about, are you sufficiently subservient to my role? And if you are not, then you`ll be punished for that. BELTRAN: Yes. This is a culture of sort of a culture of subservient in a kind of incredible hostility if people are not immediately obedient. So, this is something about a real culture of poor people and a desire to police what is seen as certain kinds of marginal communities that they have to be rigorously and aggressively policed. And this is one of the interesting thing you see on conservative media. Where they say, why didn`t that person just get on the floor? But, you know, people shouldn`t be losing their lives for this kind of thing. But there is a kind of logic of just, if you don`t -- HARRIS-PERRY: Obey -- BELTRAN: -- there`re a culture of obedience that is clearly part of the culture of policing that has to be fundamentally changed or we`re not going to get anywhere. HARRIS-PERRY: And I will say -- so I`ll throw to you. But I feel like that is precisely what we saw for example in the Sandra Bland videos. That part of what makes that so difficult to watch is the sense that this is a kind of, you know, low level interaction that for whatever sense of reason end up with this young woman dead because what she`s doing is simply disrespectful. And that is enough. Right? GEORGE: I don`t know why that judge still, you know, still in that position. HARRIS-PERRY: I think she is an elected judge. GEORGE: Well, I mean, in that case, well, of course Florida. That`s a problem. Because, I mean, yes, the woman should have shown up for court. But she is a witness. Two, she is a -- she`s a victim. So in the interest of justice, the judge should be trying to figure out a way to get her, you know, yes to get her to testify. But to contempt of court, I mean, it`s ridiculous. BELTRAN: One more quick thing I would note though, it that it`s interesting is, that`s a woman judge. And I think this tells us something about the importance of changing a culture and not just changing the faces. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. Ahah. Right. You can`t just put new bodies in the same system and expect it to be fundamentally different. GEORGE: And sometimes elected women want to show that they are as tough as a man would be in that same position. Some of them are running for president. Sorry. HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you. That seems like too much. We don`t know that that is -- (LAUGHTER) HARRIS-PERRY: So all right. But all right, I do want to come you to on this in part. Because, you know, I think respect for the law, for systems matter. But again, to listen to a judge say we have these six people sitting here as though the inconvenience to six people for serving on a jury is somehow more relevant. And I think, again, it betrays our sense that, like what courts are meant to be is about the pursuit of justice and then feeling as though that`s not what`s happening. MELBER: People around the country are outraged by this result. HARRIS-PERRY: Yep. MELBER: The notion that this woman is a victim of domestic abuse and the response in the court system is to put her behind bars. HARRIS-PERRY: Yep. MELBER: I get. I also would dissent from this outcome. Having said that, it`s not exactly black and white. This judge who I think acted inappropriately was coming from a position which was they went well down the path of convening a jury to try to hold a trial of the defendant who allegedly, physically abused her. Very serious. And so the judge`s frustration, I think, taken out completely wrong way and more of the video is available online if people see it, will see more inappropriate conduct from a judge. However, wasn`t coming from nowhere. It was coming from her attempt to say it is difficult to get participation of domestic violence witnesses. The system doesn`t work well. HARRIS-PERRY: And, in fact, this is -- (CROSSTALK) MELBER: That`s the content. HARRIS-PERRY: I was going to say -- MELBER: I don`t think there`s no content. HARRIS-PERRY: I was going to say. So, that survivor then -- this woman actually did speak to NBC and said, "I knew I did wrong when I missed the trial. But I wasn`t expecting her reaction. I think after everything that`s happened, I would most likely not call the police at all." And so, if her goal was to get compliance of the domestic violence survivor, then actually her actions do exactly the opposite. MELBER: And so, briefly this goes to that point about, is punishment the only response. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. MELBER: In the particularly these kinds of difficult cases, the court system should adjust to try to encourage and support testimony knowing how difficult it can be, knowing as you point out on this show that women take a risk when they do it. HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right. MELBER: And there`s got to be a way to incent that other than -- HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you to Cristina Beltran and to Reverend Vivian Nixon. All right. Sticking around. Still to come this morning, the big changes to the Comic Con and nerd culture. But first, Ari Melber`s original report on how one man turned his wrongful conviction into a life dedicated to changing an entire system. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: About 6,000 people will be released from federal prison at the end of the month, this part of the Justice Department`s effort to reduce overcrowding. This worth noting that some men and women in those overly packed prisons are people who maintain they have been wrongfully convicted. People like Jarrett Adams, a man in his 30s who was wrongly convicted at the age of 17 after serving nine years in prison and appeals court overturned his conviction. MNBC`s chief legal correspondent Ari Melber spoke with Adams about his experience with the legal system and the work he hopes to do as an attorney. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MELBER (voice-over): For Jarrett Adams, leading a clinic on criminal justice at Loyola Law School goes beyond the professional, it`s personal. When he was 17-years-old, he visited a college campus with two friends where they were accused of sexual assault. JARRETT ADAMS, GRADUATED AT LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL: I maintain my innocence from the beginning because I was innocent. MELBER: But Adams court appointed lawyer did not offer a defense a trial. ADAMS: It`s as if, you know, I`m looking at myself in a courtroom, you know, while the train is coming down the tracks. You know, getting ready to hit me head on. MELBER: Living behind bars, a cell mate told him to stop playing basketball and to fight for his freedom and justice instead. Adams taught himself case law and wrote to the Wisconsin Innocence Project. KEITH FINDLEY, WISCONSIN INNOCENCE PROJECT: We got the letter from Jarrett in time to allow us to do a federal appeal. We had powerful new evidence that had none been presented to his jury. MELBER: After nine years in prison, Adams` case finally reached the top federal court in the Midwest, in a unanimous vote, the justices threw out his conviction ruling he didn`t receive an adequate defense. ADAMS: The day that they overturned my conviction, I was taken down out of my cell to a phone room. They said, Jarrett, you won. And hearing that brought tears to my eyes. FINDLEY: This is a human system. It`s fallible. It`s bound to make mistakes. But it also tells us that when we make mistakes, they are catastrophic. MELBER: With Adams forcefully maintaining his innocence and refusing a plea deal, prosecutors decided not to retry him. He was free but he was a 26-year-old man with a life paused at 17. ADAMS: When I went to prison, there was no Google, there was no e-mail. There was none of this stuff. So, I had to figure out a way in which I could catch up with the world to be able to just have a shot at life. MELBER: He set a lofty goal. Law school in public service. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jarrett Adams. MELBER: He earned that law degree this past spring. DEAN DAVID YELLEN, LOYOLA SCHOOL OF LAW: Jarrett has his passion for using his legal education and his talents to right wrongs in society. MELBER: And his mission didn`t stop there. Adams won a fellowship to clerk on the Seventh Circuit Court of appeals. The very court that overturned his conviction. We asked former federal prosecutor Mike Monico if he`s ever seen that happen. MICHAEL MONICO, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: No, it never have. I mean, Jarrett is remarkable. PATRICIA BROWN HOLMES, TRIAL ATTORNEY: For someone to argue before that court is a really big deal. For someone to clerk for that court is an even bigger deal. I`m very proud of him. I`m as proud as if I was his mother. MELBER: Adams says his story is just getting started. ADAMS: I say to myself, the story of Jarrett Adams won`t be remembered as, you know, personal wrongly convicted got out. No. Story of Jarret Adams is going to be person wrongly convicted got out and worked each and every day until he gasped his last breath to change the criminal justice system for the better. (END VIDEOTAPE) HARRIS-PERRY: All right. What is next for Jarrett? MELBER: Jarrett is doing this clerkship at the court of freedom. He has another clerkship lined up in a federal district court in New York. And when we spoke about was his desire to change the way the prison systems operate, the re-entry programs. He makes the point that he`s now able to do public service but we`re locking up so many people who can`t contribute to society. Another thing I wanted to raise as we look at this was something his lawyer Mr. Finley talked about. What it means to fight for long shot odds in this terrain. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FINDLEY: Jarrett`s story has affected me in a number of ways. One of which was it has sort of reconfirmed this notion that it`s very hard for people to hold on to that despite all odds, it`s worth the fight. It`s worth continuing. I will admit that when my students came to me and said, let`s file this habeas petition, I said I know what the standards are in federal habeas. I know what a long shot it is. We had very little time. I thought it probably wasn`t worth the effort. And I learned from this that it`s -- that`s not an excuse we should rely on very often. And you never know when you`re going to be successful in achieving justice. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. I mean it`s extraordinary insight. As is just recognition of how incredible this young man is and it`s just a reminder how many other people like him and their brain power and their capacity and their passion were just locking up. MELBER: Exactly. I mean, one of the points he made to me is he said, you know, you can be locking up to cure for HIV. You could be locking autopsy all sorts of people because you don`t have the re-entry. And another part of the story that we touch on there is while he was incarcerated, he also did disciplinary appeals for other inmates. He won 17 of them. Helping people get lost wages. HARRIS-PERRY: Wow! MELBER: Helping people get taken out of solitary confinement. And he said, he believed in that work but he also said he had the mindset that that would help him practice as the lawyer he wanted to be for himself and hopefully for others. He also, Melissa, is someone who obviously has seen the dark side and the fallible side of our criminal justice system. But he is, as I think you saw there someone who says he`s not defined by that anger or that problem. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. MELBER: He wants to go out and make positive change. It`s nice sometimes in our system to see a story like that. HARRIS-PERRY: Well, plus, it`s going to be nice to watch that story unfold. I have a sense we may someday be voting for Mr. Adams. Thank you so much, Ari Melber. MELBER: Thank you. HARRIS-PERRY: And tomorrow, Ari and Jarrett Adams will host a Twitter chat, 5:00 p.m. Eastern. Be sure to join in and to tweet any questions you might have with the #JarrettAdams. Up next, the center of the Nerdland universe this week. We`re going to take you inside New York`s Comic Con. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Here in Nerdland, we`re not just political nerds or history nerds. We are large and have nerdlicious multitudes. We are all around nerds. So when the nerdiest conference came to New York City, we sent our producers and MSNBC contributor Dorian Warren to check it out. That`s right, Nerdland went to New York Comic Con. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DORIAN WARREN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Hey Nerdland, it`s me, Dorian Warren. And I`m standing here at day one of New York Comic Con. As you can see, the streams of participants coming in, the lines are all the way down the block. Expected attendance over 151,000 people. The largest pop culture convention of its kind in North America. All of these folks are here coming to see over 500 exhibitors, panelists, actors, artists, everything around Sci-Fi, fantasy, comic books, all here for the next four days. New York City`s Comic Con. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re going to go see Comic Con. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my first time coming, so yes this is my first time. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We really love super heroes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m like kind of part of this group. I don`t know. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s really important for young girls to have people to look up to, women to idolize for things other than just their appearance. For their strengths, for their power, for their intelligence. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As women, would you like to see more women represented here? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`d like to see a lot more people of color and know that they can dress up however far they want. Like it doesn`t matter because it`s costly. Like this is time for you to act crazy and do what you want. WARREN: Why is representation important? MARGUERITE BENNETT, NEW YORK COMIC CON PARTICIPANT: I mean you start to feel that there is something wrong with you if you don`t see yourself reflected. You feel like the only one. I mean the characters that I`m printed on are the characters who had flaws that I had. Nothing had, you know, virtues that I also had. You don`t feel alone. JOE QUERADA, NEW YORK COMIC CON PARTICIPANT: You just been growing along with the world. And our characters have been growing along with the world. So I think it`s an amazing thing to see. And you can see it no better place in this show which is reflected all around you. You know, we used to come to these shows and it would be 80 percent men. KEVIN SMITH, NEW YORK COMIC CON PARTICIPANT: Things have changed. Minorities and comics have changed. A lot more -- there`s a lot more inclusion now than there was when I was reading comics. And, you know, there`s just a sea of white dudes making and reading and stuff. Now it`s a lot more different. You know, it`s like now they -- the industry suddenly woke up and it`s like, 51 percent of the audience don`t look like 49 percent of our audience and we could be getting their money as well. DAVID WALKER, NEW YORK COMIC CON PARTICIPANT: When you were a kid growing up, kid of color, most of your entertainment is very white. In that lack of reflection, it`s omission and through that omission it becomes a level of oppression. And that level of oppression comes in the form of young people not being able to activate their dreams, see themselves as super heroes. WARREN: What does the industry need to do to actually fully reflect the experiences of people of color and women of color? REGINE SAWYER, NEW YORK COMIC CON PARTICIPANT: Hire us. If you see us out there and you see we`re doing a good job, take a mental note. Send us an e-mail. Send us a paycheck. I`m really serious. We`re out here. We represent what other people want to see. So I think it`s the smart thing is to hire us. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I approach comics, videogames, all things relates to that medium the same way as a white male or Mexican male, whoever. You know, because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is a good story. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Up next, the colorful gender inclusive and utterly changing nature of our super heroes. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Well, it`s my first day in Comic Con. I really want to go. It seems -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at the camera, baby. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: -- seems packed with it. So it`s really fun. I heard it`s really fun. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it`s my first time to New York Comic Con and really excited. I like all things like Marvel and Avengers and stuff like. So it`s just a fun time to nerd out and enjoy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you guys consider yourself nerds? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Yes. Sure. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: We`re more like geeks. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: You know, more like geeks. Right? So, those are the fans attending New York`s Comic Con. The largest pop culture convention in the country. And the name of the game of this year`s conference was diversity. And featured a list of panels of red Comic Con image pea show (ph) rundown. There was from black face to black panther, the evolution of the depiction of people of color in comic books, graphic novels and film, women in geek media, secret identities creating transgender characters in comic books just to name a few. So, I condemned (ph) a panel of wonderful nerds to talk about why it is important that our pop culture reflects our increasingly diverse society? Joining me now is Marjorie Liu who is "New York Times" bestselling author, attorney comic book writer for image and marvel and whose new title "Monstress" is set to be released in November. Robert George, yes, you saw him earlier but he has changed. The associate, editorial page editor of the New York Post. Jamie Broadnax who is managing editor of podcaster of Black Girl Nerds, we`re like social media besties. And Drew Grant who is senior editor for the New York Observer. Thank you guys for being here. JAMIE BROADNAX, MANAGING EDITOR, BLACK GIRL NERDS: Thank you for inviting us. HARRIS-PERRY: So Marjorie, what has changed in the land of comics? MARJORIE LIU, NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, when I first started writing comics in 2007, I was one of a handful of women writing mainstream comics. And by mainstream, I mean marvel D.C. super hero comics which is a very narrow genre. But I was probably maybe one of the only women of color. And so -- and girls would come up to me at conventions and they would say, oh, you know, I really want to write comics but people tell me I can`t because I`m a girl. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. LIU: And that was heartbreaking. And so fast forward to 2015 and because of social media, because of, you know, women like Jamie, you know, because we`ve got this increased discussion about representation, women, people of color, folks from all different backgrounds are standing up and saying, okay, we exist. Our voices must be heard. And we`ve seen changes. We`ve seen real changes. HARRIS-PERRY: So, I love hearing you sort of give that description at the same time that you were sitting next to Robert George. LIU: Uh-hm. HARRIS-PERRY: Now, there are things we learn about our regular guests sitting in the make-up room. And I remembered last year that you were like, okay, I am here and then there`s Comic Con. And just so you know, this is how much I appreciate your show but I`m out of here. (LAUGHTER) And I`m thinking, wait a minute, how many are like black eyes over at Comic Con, right? But then I also think that about the Republican Party. (LAUGHTER) So talk to me about -- GEORGE: Why I was mannered conservative reporter by day? HARRIS-PERRY: Yes! (LAUGHTER) Talk to me about sort of what it is, what this thing is, why is it so attractive and interesting and compelling? GEORGE: Well, I`ve been a comic book geek, nerd, whatever you want to call it for a lot longer than I`ve been a republican. But, no, it`s just something -- I was -- when I was like seven or eight years old, I was like, you know, jumping up on the bed with my Batman cape. It was just attracted me into it. And I was -- and I`ve been -- back then, when I would go to comic bookstore actually, I was usually like the only black kid who was picking up the comics. That`s definitely changed over the decades. HARRIS-PERRY: And so a part of what is interesting to me is the idea that you say in my Batman cape. Right? So, you`re able to reflect and associate with Batman despite the fact that Batman is not sort of racially the same. But I can remember all these feeling like the girls were the sexy kind of add ones to the super heroes. They weren`t the super heroes themselves. And part of what is been so exciting to me as an adult raising girls is now the girls are the super heroes. Right? They don`t have to just, you know, be the adornments of the super hero. DREW GRANT, SENIOR EDITOR, NEW YORK OBSERVER: Yes. I think that`s totally true. I think one of the biggest changes in Comic Con is the change in diversity. But that change is becoming more apparent as more and more franchises and more studios come in and they`re looking for seats to fill their theaters. Marvel is looking for people to watch their TV shows. And they`re alienating a large swath of their audience without, you know, without good female strong female lead or a strong female director. So you know this year we have Jessica Jones. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. GRANT: You know, we have Agent Shield, we have a bunch of shows. We have "Super Girl" coming up. We`ll see how that does. You know, you walk into Comic Con now and you see it`s a Jurassic World. What does that have to do with comics? Not very much. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. GEORGE: I`m sorry. HARRIS-PERRY: So, I just want to pull you in on this. Because I think that was one of the things, some of the producers here are real comic nerds and some of my producers like, what in the world of Comic Con? And so, part of what my nerdy producer was saying is, oh no, it`s pop culture in these broadest sense. BROADNAX: Right. Right. I think what`s really important about Comic Con is it shares phantoms for all different kinds of people. It`s not just for comic fans. It`s people that`s into Science fiction fantasy. It`s people that into anime. So it brings in people from all over diverse backgrounds. And that is very important to illustrate. Because, you know, before when we saw a lot of these Comic Cons, it was white male predominantly, you know, being represented. But now you see women of color. You see people of LGBTQ backgrounds. And it`s go to see comic books illustrate those kinds of folks in the images but also what`s really important with the dialogues was showing them behind the scenes as creators. HARRIS-PERRY: And everybody also seems to be an Atlantic reader. Because the number one name drop that was going on at Comic Con was Ta-Nehisi Coates -- (LAUGHTER) Everyone like go, go, go. Because of course he`s now going to be doing the new panther. And this idea that Coates who is kind of the, you know, he`s the voice off our generation. He is the kind of, you know, public intellectual is doing panther, right? BROADNAX: Yes. He`s doing panther. And then also David Walker and Sanford Green is doing the iron fist and power man comic. So it`s great. I would love to see some black women names being added to the list. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. BROADNAX: I would love to see -- I know that one of the comics that are coming out soon is Blade is going to be having a comic with his daughter. So a good friend of mine, Atora (ph) Richardson, she`s going to be working on that. And then we featured in the segment Ashley A. Woods and Amandla Stenberg that is doing the Niobe comic. So, I definitely want to see more women in the background doing things and shout out to Regine L. Sawyer and the women in comics New York City Collective. Black women, women of color illustrating, writing, editing, creating their own comic book companies. It`s important. HARRIS-PERRY: All right. Stick with us. Because coming up next, the reinvented Miss Marvel. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: In 2013 Marvel revamped one of their classic characters Miss Marvel. From the set of the statue as blonde haired, blue eyed Carol Danvers that introduced this 16-year-old Muslim teenager from New Jersey. Her name is Carmella Cann. And we spoke with one of her creators Sana Amanat who is the director of Content Development for Marvel. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SANA AMANAT, DIR. OF CONTENT DEVELOPMENT MARVEL: When I started working in the industry I was one of the few women working in comics and definitely one of the few brown women working in comics. I really wanted to make sure that, you know, we were telling stories that were, you know, not only interesting and entertaining but also, you know, diverse and representative. Carmella Cann is a young South Asian Muslim girls from Jersey City. And she is the only daughter in a very conservative household. She doesn`t know who she is and she sees these really amazing, beautiful, powerful heroes flying all over and saving the world every single day and she wants to be just like them. We wanted to make sure that we were vending or, you know, disrupting stereotypes, if you will, but at the same time we wanted to make sure that this wasn`t a story just for young Muslims or young south Asians. It was truly a story for anyone who felt like they were going through their own sort of identity struggle. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: The new Marvel series has received critical acclaim. A top spot on "The New York Times" bestseller`s list. Miss Marvel`s bestselling digital comic of 2014. So, what is everything we should know about what`s good and exciting coming up? GRANT: Well, it`s really good to hear about stories like this. I was talking to an executive of a very high level executive from one of these production houses that put on these types of super hero movies about what has changed, why in 2006 we only have two super hero movies like in the entire year and this year, we have 2014 had six of them. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. GRANT: And he said, you know, the big thing about franchises and doing these marvel DC super hero franchises is really the international market and putting an eye towards international markets, what kind of stories do they want to see? You know, they want to see good versus evil, they want to see easily translated. This might be the only entertainment they`re going to be able to do with their family all week. So, you have to pick a kind of story that`s going to play internationally and maybe think, yes, but it`s all about like white guys. GEORGE: To that point. It`s no longer just Marvel and DC, you`ve got image which does a lot of creator owned work, such as Marjorie`s working on. Also, in fact, valiant for example, has a completely separate super hero universe. They have one great title out there called divinity where the star of it is a black cosmonaut who has come back to earth and has all of these powers. And he`s been away for decades. So, he thinks communism is still a thing but it`s translated into powers. So, you`re seeing a lot of the diversity that is coming in. Definitely a lot of women but a lot of African-Americans or Russian-Americans or Black Russians. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. But this is part of the possibility, right? That if, like, if we`re not constrained by having to even -- I mean, if people want to fly, if all things are possible, then really all things are possible in space where we can start to open up our imagination of what the world can be? LIU: Well, yes. And I have to say the one beautiful thing about the segment you just showed is that it proves how important structural change is because it`s one thing to have it`s awesome that we have, you know, a female swords. Awesome they had a black Captain America. But those are optics. And it`s great to have optical change. But if we don`t have structural change behind the scenes, then these optics will not last. HARRIS-PERRY: Everything there is to know about American politics. (LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK) HARRIS-PERRY: I mean, American culture but this is -- LIU: American politics, film, television, books. I mean, everywhere we go I turn them on TV, I don`t see Asian-Americans reflect -- well, now am` beginning to. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, right. LIU: But it`s required time and a lot of push. GRANT: Yes. I mean, one of the biggest things was into the Bad Lands this year which is going to be what -- kids hoping will do for martial arts, what the Walking Dead did for zombies and it is entirely an executive produced. Starring a Chinese American backstage. Like you said, it`s being produced and directed by these people of diversity and that`s so important because women doing TV shows, they`re so much less. GEORGE: The comparison -- HARRIS-PERRY: Let me let you go. BROADNAX: Also in the digital age I think it`s really important to acknowledge the fact that there are bloggers, there are podcasters. You mentioned that we`re social media BFFs. People on social media that`s actually bringing attention to these underserved communities and these independent comic creators that are doing the stuff. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: This is part of the structural change, right? When those barriers to entry are lowered and you don`t have to wait for a marvel or DC to hire you, right? BROADNAX: Right. HARRIS-PERRY: You can actually build audience ground up with social media. GEORGE: There`s another -- BROADNAX: Absolutely. Yes. And you mentioned like, you know, there`s not enough Asian-American, you know, representation there. But then you`ve got like websites like Nerds of Color that are doing really great things. HARRIS-PERRY: Absolutely. GEORGE: Another thing to make that comparison between politics and pop culture overlap. The author of Miss Marvel, G. Willow Wilson happens to be a Muslim convert. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. GEORGE: Actually. So she hasn`t -- she`s got an authentic voice that she`s bringing to -- and just like say Bernie Sanders -- HARRIS-PERRY: Oh! (LAUGHTER) GEORGE: Authenticity, yes. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Yes. Yes. I`m with you. I`m with you. (LAUGHTER) Thank you to Marjorie Liu and to Robert George and to Jamie Broadnax -- and to Drew Grant. That is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching. I`m going to see you next Saturday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. Coming up, "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT." THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END