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Melissa Harris-Perry, Transcript 07/26/15

Guests: Alina Das; Joaquin Castro; William B. Irvine; Danielle Moodie-Mills; Jonathan Meltzer; Chase Strangio; Alicia Garza; Laverne Cox, SharonCooper, Cannon Lambert, Jonathan Metzl, Danielle Moodie-Mills, VinceWarren, Jill Filipovic, Dordy Jourdain

RICHARD LOUIE, MSNBC HOST: Well, this morning, our question, what is the purpose behind the insult? JANET MOCK, MSNBC HOST: Plus, family members of Sandra Bland continue to push for answers. LOUIE: And the difference between a slogan and a movement. MOCK: But first, President Obama`s historic trip to East Africa. LOUIE: Hey, good morning. I am Richard Louie. MOCK: And I`m Janet Mock. Melissa is off today. We have to a lot to get to. But first, earlier this morning, President Obama spoke to thousands of people packed in a stadium in Nairobi, Kenya as part of his visit to the east African nation, the first ever by a sitting U.S. president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am proud to be the first American president to come to Kenya. And, of course, I am the first Kenyan-American to be president of the United States. (END VIDEO CLIP) MOCK: Joining us now for more on the speech from Nairobi, senior White House correspondent Chris Jansing. Chris, what struck you about the president`s speech this morning? CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have to say, Janet, first of all, he has never called himself a Kenyan-American. That`s what they call him here. So you saw that got him a big ovation. But this was always expected to be sort of the highlight of his trip, this return to his ancestral homeland. And so, part of it was very personal. He talked about his father and grandfather, his first trip here when he was 27 years old and when the airline lost his luggage, of course, he joked that`s not something that happens on air force one. They always know where his luggage is. But he also used the popularity that he has here to push again against corruption. This is a country where there is rampant corruption, and he had a pretty sobering statistic that $250,000 according to one study goes to bribes, and think of all the jobs that could create here. In addition for the first time, we heard him talking about how this country needs to change its attitude towards women and girls. Let me play a little bit of what he had to say about that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: Any nation that fails to educate its girls or employ its women and allowing them to maximize their potential is doomed to fall behind in the global economy. A sports center, imagine if you have a team and you don`t let half of the team play. That`s stupid. (END VIDEO CLIP) JANSING: He described this country at being at a crossroads between progress and peril. And clearly, it is trying to push it in the direction of democracy. And he is on Air Force One right now. He just left. He is heading to Ethiopia, a country where in the most recent election the prime minister got 100 percent of the vote. So they have even more serious problems than what we saw here. But I also think that he left on a hopeful note, promising that he would be a friend, promising that he would return. And in my most amusing discovery of the day, when Air Force One landed on Friday, there were reports in the local media that two out of eight babies who were born in one remote village were named Air Force One Barack Obama and simply Air Force One - Janet, Richard. MOCK: Perfect touching details. NBC`s Chris Jansing in Nairobi, thank you. LOUIE: Thanks a lots, Chris. Now, we turn to a key issue in the 2016 for you. And the most out spoken presidential candidate right now, that`s Donald Trump, who brought his campaign to the border town of Laredo, Texas Thursday. His brief tour of the U.S.-Mexico border there marked the culmination of a series of events, mostly centered around his stands on immigration and border security. And he brought his hardline immigration rhetoric to the goggle or reporters that greeted him. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: You keep saying there is a danger but the crime along the border is down. What danger are you talking about? DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is great danger with the illegals, and we are just discussing that, but we have a tremendous danger on the border with the illegal scamming in. (END VIDEO CLIP) LOUIE: Now Trump certainly bring the issue of immigration to the fore front right now. But in his unique media courting, Donald Trump way, with his focus on the U.S.-Mexican border, other aspects of the immigration debate are being over shadowed issues like the use of detention centers for immigrants here in the United States. There are three family detention facilities in the country, two in Texas and one in Pennsylvania. These centers house a segment of the population that remains very much in limbo. The detention centers were open last year after the U.S. saw a surge of nearly 70,000 parents and children fleeing violence in Central American seeking asylum here. This month, U.S. immigration and customs enforcement, also known as ICE, reportedly (INAUDIBLE) city facility in Texas was housing 100 people while the Deli facility in Texas was housing about 2,000. There, more than half of the detainees are children. However, new development that occurred late Friday may change all of that and quickly. A federal judge in California has rejected the Obama administration`s arguments for holding these families. Judge Dolly Gee ruled the detention of the children and parents caught crossing the border illegally is a serious violation of a long-standing court settlement and the families should be released as quick as possible. Now, last week, President Obama became the first sitting president to pay a visit to a federal prison. And though the president received kudos for taking his reform message to a prison cellblock, some of these programs the U.S. have called upon the president to also visit a detention center. In a certainly been done by members of his cabinet and Congress. In June department of homeland security Secretary Jeh Johnson visited the Karnes Texas facility. Representative Joaquin Castro of San Antonio also made a congressional visit last month to Karnes. He also visited the South Texas family residential center in Dilly, Texas. Now, last week, during our program, one of our viewers tweeted to us, this request you see right here. Please have Joaquin Castro on the show to discuss recent trips to immigrant detention centers and facilities in Texas #nerdland. Now, Nerdland devotees, know when viewers ask for something, it is listened to and is responded to. Joining us right now is U.S. representative Joaquin Castro from San Antonio, and joining us here in New York, Alina Das, associate professor of clinical law and code rec of the immigrant rights clinic at New York University School of law. We`ll start with you, congressman. And so, since we were just talking about you hosting that delegation of members, visiting one of the facilities, what did you see there and how is it being talked about since we are eluding to Donald Trump`s visits but necessarily he has not discussed that. REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D), TEXAS: Yes. Well, good morning, Richard and Janet. And thank you for having me on. This is an important issue that has been overshadowed by the larger conversation on immigration reform and more recently by Donald Trump`s rhetoric. But we visited several of us from congress, Luis Gutierrez (INAUDIBLE), Stany Hoyer, (INAUDIBLE) and a few others. And we saw the folks at Dilly and Karnes. And what you see there is kind of a mini prison camp, people that are in secure areas. They are not allowed to go into certain areas. There are head counts at different times during the day, sometimes the women were complaining that they were being kept from their kids or being kept in isolation. And so, I am glad to see that judge Gee in California made her ruling. And also that the department of homeland security and Secretary Johnson have taken heed. We met with Secretary Johnson the next day after we got back from those visits and he was very receptive to the conversation and made clear that they were going to change their policies. I am glad to see that they have done that and that they have started to in mass put these folks in alternative arrangements. MOCK: Congressman, we have video of your recent visit to the center in Dilly. And I understand that many of the people you met greeted you with chants translated as we want liberty and want to be free. What was your reaction to hearing those chants? CASTRO: It was very striking, I think, a very emotional for folks. What you see in those videos is people who are very desperate. Remember, a big part of the reason that we objected to folks being kept in these conditions, in addition to the fact that they are kids, is that they were coming seeking asylum in the United States. These are people that were fleeing incredible violence in the northern triangle countries of Central America. And we didn`t think it appropriate to house anybody that way when they are essentially coming to our nation seeking asylum. And so, it was mothers and kids, many of them who, of course, looked very worn out. Many of them had given up hope. We met a few who had been there for, I think, just over a year, close to a year. There was a woman that we met with, that the group met with, and two days later she tried to kill herself, the same thing had happened a few weeks before. And so, these folks are people who are really in a desperate situation. LOUIE: Alina Das, as we look at these family detention centers, it is so important no doubt to Latinos and Latino-Americans, but also Asian- Americans if we look at family immigration, but these are family detention centers, and we have Dolly Gee in California, we have the detention centers in Texas. What does this mean for the country? ALINA DAS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, it`s the hope that this decision will mark the beginning of the end of family detention in the U.S. The court decision is actually very clear that the government should have been complying all along with the consent decree that you mentioned and that`s aimed at protecting children. We know that detaining children harms their physical, mental development even for a short period of time. And we know that detaining vulnerable populations can re-traumatized them. And these are asylum seekers as the congressman mentioned. So, what we need to see here is a reliance on true community-based alternatives to detention. None of these children and mothers need to be detained. They didn`t need to be detained in the first place, and there are community organizations that are available to insure that they are aware of what their rights are. That they are able to go through our system. LOUIE: Are the alternatives legal and how are they different in what you are talking about? DAS: Sure. So the alternatives that are available have been studied overtime. These involve placing immigrant families in connection with community organizations that provide them with case management assistance. I mean, asylum seekers are already prone to want to comply with the law. They have stake in the system. They can get asylum status and protection here and the alternative then is being deported to a country where they often face violence. LOUIE: So it`s driven by law? DAS: Absolutely. MOCK: Well, it seems really - the details seems so intense, I opt to always wonder what are the alternatives in a situation like this? But the way that they are detained, is this, for the women and children, is this against U.S. law and policy? DAS: Absolutely. There`s a consent decree that has been in place for 18 years that says that children are not supposed to be detained. They are supposed to be released to a parent or an adult guardian. And if no such person is available, then they have to house in a non-restricted setting that is actually licensed to care for children. But instead what we have seen here is that the government circumvented this ruling to actually house people in this prison-like settings that are restricted and are completely unlicensed in the care of children. LOUIE: Congressman, turning to you here, last month as you, homeland security secretary Jeh Johnson announcing changes to shorten the length of stay for most women, most children that are in the centers, the pace of releases, though, picked up. Are these reforms enough to fix the problem? CASTRO: Well, you know, as long as they continue releasing people and doing it in an expedited fashion. And I think it is also important that next time, if this happens again, and of course, you know, we commit more resources to border security than we ever have before in this country, the number of border crossings overall is much lower than it was ten years ago or 24 years ago. And also, remember, these folks were not, most of them, trying to sneak around border patrol. They went up to border patrol and presented themselves as seeking asylum. But if this happens in the future, we want to make sure that there are not detention centers being set up again. They shouldn`t been set up this time. And my sense is the administration wanted them to use them as temporary centers. But when you are keeping people there several months or up to a year, that is beyond temporary. So I think the important thing going forward is that we don`t make the same mistake twice. MOCK: Thank you so much, congressman Joaquin Castro in San Antonio. LOUIE: And Alina Das right here in New York, thank you as well. MOCK: Up next, the art of the insult. LOUIE: That`s right. Donald Trump may be the king of the campaign zingers, but which candidates have the best comebacks to those insults. We will find out. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LOUIE: And welcome back. Even if nothing else comes from Donald Trump`s 2016 presidential campaign, we will have the insults. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rick Perry should have to have an IQ test before getting on the debate stage. Here`s what happens with President Walker, whose state, by the way, is a disaster, but I won`t say that. And then I watch this idiot Lindsey Graham on television today, and he calls me a jack ass. He is a jack ass. He`s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who are not captured. By the way, he is registered zero in the polls, zero. He is on television all the time -- Lindsey Graham. (END VIDEO CLIP) LOUIE: That`s just some of them. Let`s talk about the insults, right? What they mean and what they do to us and when and why they hurt us. And a piece for "Time" magazine, philosophy professor William B. Irvine writes this quote. "Those playing the social hierarchy game trying to score points by insulting others who respond with counter insults. Game players also spend their days saying, doing and even buying things calculated to gain the admiration of other people. Such attempts are likely to fail, though, since people rarely want only to admire preferring instead to be admired. It`s a recipe for social strife and personal misery," end quote. Now at the table today, Jonathan Meltzer, professor of psychiatry at Vanderbilt University and director of its center for Medicine, health and society. Danielle Moodie-Mills, contributor to NBC and co-host of "Politini." And joining us now from Columbus Ohio is William B. Irvine, professor of philosophy of Wright State University, and author of "a slap in the face, why insults hurt and why they shouldn`t." So professor, since you are the expert of insults, we go to you first. And we just looked at Donald Trump`s insults, and he uses many devices, one of which is to say, I don`t mean to say, but -- what can we learn by what he does? WILLIAM IRVINE, PROFESSOR, WRIGHT STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, I have been following his insults in the recent days, and one of the things that`s strikes me is that for the most part these are playground level insults. They are not very clever. You can find other politicians who had much better insults than that. LOUIE: What is a better insult? IRVINE: My favorite example would be Winston Churchill who said of one of his opponents that he was a sheep in sheep`s clothing. That at least has some wit to it. MOCK: I know. And speaking of wit, right, like we know within the community where a lot of people say that there`s a read or shade involved, right. So Jonathan, why is it that the insults with the grain of truth, why do they hurt the most? DR. JONATHAN MELTZER, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR MEDICINE, HEALTH AND SOCIETY: I like that we just heard Trump has to up his game in the insult category. Insults are not that quite a Churchill level yet. But, you know, I would say that, you know, taking -- at first, I guess there`s a standard psychological or psychoanalytic perspective on this. You know, there is something about an insult that is very personal, not just to the person that is receiving the insult, but the person who is the insulter. So if you take a kind of (INAUDIBLE) stands, an insult is a projection. You are taking something that you yourself are in secure about. And then you put it on somebody else. So it would feel very personal because it is personal. But it`s not just personal about the person receiving the insult, it`s actually the insecurity of the person who is giving the insult. And in this case, you know, if you wanted to do a psychological profile of Trump -- LOUIE: Go, go. MELTZER: I mean, there are many very practiced politician, something that Republican fields whether you agree with them or not. And so maybe there is a level of insecurity about what Trump is going through right now, and in a way projecting this, you know, in a way it puts him on top of the false hierarchy in a way but it`s probably based on something deep within himself. LOUIE: Donald is pretty good at this insult. MELTZER: I tell you. LOUIE: So Danielle, I want to get your perspective, but there is also the response, right? And so, we have a couple of responses to Donald Trump. And I want to start with John McCain. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Joe, I put all that behind me. For me to look back in anger at anyone is nonproductive. (END VIDEO CLIP) LOUIE: And then we got Rick Perry. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let know one be mistaken, Donald Trump`s candidacy is a cancer on conservative and it must be diagnosed, excised and discarded. (END VIDEO CLIP) LOUIE: So we have, Danielle, you know, John McCain is saying I`m not going to engage. Rick Perry saying I am going to insult. DANIELLE MOODIE-MILLS, NBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that`s part of what prof. Irvine said in this piece. He said the in order to deal with insult that you need to pacify them. Or you need to really look at yourself and kind of make a joke about yourself. I think that Trump`s idea, what he wants his campaign strategy is to alienate and humiliate his -- the other candidates so that he can show himself as the alpha dog. That`s what he wants and then them to be behind the pack. That`s his goal. But it not going to get him to the White House, though. Just saying. LOUIE: Well, let`s just saying. MOCK: William, let`s bring you back in here, professor. What is the best way to respond to insults? IRVINE: The best way, the easiest way is to do absolutely nothing and response to them. You just carry on as if nothing had been said. It`s really effective. The other person wonders whether you heard them and they may try to repeat the insult in which case you can say, well, I heard you the first time and just press on. And even better way, if you have your wits about you, is to follow an insult against you by an even bigger insult of yourself. So you engage in self-deprecating humor. Because what they just did, the insulter, is the insulter hit you with what he or she thought was her best shot and you are just laughing it off. LOUIE: Why do we like the insult quickly here, professor? We are talking about it today. IRVINE: We like the insult -- actually, it`s a curious thing. First of all, some insults are actually benign insults. I have joking relationships, I have friends with whom much of conversation is devoted to playful insults. Within a relationship there is going to be a certain level of insults because they are a way to defuse what would otherwise be tension between the parties, you know, sore points. And then there are other times when you are simply trying to assert your social dominance over another human being. LOUIE: Hierarchy. IRVINE: Yes. It is also possible to insult scaringly possible to insult somebody without even realizing you are doing it. One way to insult somebody is by saying or not doing something and a sensitive person will take that as an insult. LOUIE: Well, we are glad, professor because we take everything you said insultingly. (LAUGHTER) LOUIE: Sir William Irvine who called us in Ohio, thank you so much for joining us this morning. Jonathan and Danielle, you are stick around. Good thing. MOCK: Yes. Still to come, my first ever letter of the week. Can you guess who I am sending it to? Before we go, a moment with Senator Lindsey Graham. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am curious as to what you think about potentially not having a place in the debates? We had a pretty -- SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it sucks. Brad Pitt would be in the debate in August, and anybody with any celebrity would be in the debate. I think this is a dumb way to weed out the field. Donald Trump, you`re fired. He`s a jack ass. Without being jack ass. You don`t have to run for president and be the world`s biggest jack ass. If my numbers go up it`s because I called Donald Trump a jack ass. But you want give him the new (INAUDIBLE), maybe you put them on the Internet. If all else fails, you can always give your number to the Donald. This is for all the veterans. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LOUIE: Tonight, another vigil is planned for the two women killed and nine others injured when a man opened fire in a movie theater in Lafayette, Louisiana. Funeral services for 21-year-old Mayci Breaux and 33-year-old Jillian Johnson are scheduled for tomorrow. Meanwhile the investigation into what motivated the alleged gunman John Hauser that continues. MSNBC reporter Jamie Novogrod live in Lafayette this morning for us. Jamie, and what is the latest? JAMIE NOVOGROD, MSNBC REPORTER: Richard, good morning. As you said, police have not been able to figure out a motive and it`s puzzling them. I could even say it`s haunting them. They are very interested in figuring out a motive because it`s important from an investigative standpoint, but also from an emotional standpoint. They say that they owe it to the families. Tomorrow, as you say, there are funerals for the two young women who are killed here. Police today say that they discovered a journal inside the hotel room that the shooter John Russell Hauser, rather, had been living in for weeks prior to the shooting. They say, Richard that in the journal, he mentioned the exact time and place of the film screening where the shooting took place, which means that there was an element of premeditation there, police say. Police are also working to confirm that Hauser visited at least three other theaters, one in Lake Charles, one in Baton Rouge, Richard, and another, a- third here in Lafayette. LOUIE: And again, the vigil tonight there in Lafayette. Thank you so much, Jamie Novogrod in Lafayette, appreciate it. Still ahead for you, Janet`s letter of the week, and her interview with Laverne Cox of "Orange is the New Black." Stay with us, much more to come. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: So running for president is hard. Every word is dissected. Candidates are hit with questions of every variety day after day, and sometimes, well, they kind a blow it. Not because of a misinterpreted response, but because they gave a really bad answer. Take for example, Governor Martin O`Malley who misfire at last week`s (INAUDIBLE) nation conference. When a candidate steps in it that badly, the best thing to do exactly what O`Malley did, move on, apologize and at least try to move on. But - then another former governor turned presidential hopeful weighed in, and he said that apology wasn`t necessary. Which is why I am sending a letter this week to that candidate. Former Florida governor, Jeb Bush. Dear governor Bush, it`s me, Janet Mock. Let`s start with what you actually said. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are so uptight and so politically correct now. You apologized for saying, lives matter. Why just precious? It`s a gift from God. I frankly think it`s one of the most important values we have. In the political context, it`s a slogan, I guess, and should he have apologized? No. If he believes white lives matter, which I hope he does he shouldn`t apologize to a group that didn`t seem to disagree with him? (END VIDEO CLIP) MOCK: Governor, if anyone is clear about what a slogan actually looks like, it is you. After all the slogan on your campaign posters, Just Jeb, is clearly meant to distract from let`s call it complicated associations with your last name. So you should know when you see and hear black lives matter that it`s not a slogan. Black lives, because black lives matter is not asking anybody to ignore facts but it`s challenging us to actually face them. You see, when we have long -- what we have long recognized in this country is that black labor matters, the economic foundation of this country was laid upon the backs of enslaved people whose value as human being was defined solely by their worth as commodities. The civil rights movement forced us to acknowledge that black suffering matters. By putting their bodies directly in the line of fire, they left no choice but for the nation to confront and respond to the injustice of Jim Crow. More recently we acknowledge that when the fault lies with the single racist gunman instead of a system of racist news tuitions, black death matter. It took the murders of nine African-Americans praying in their church to finally make the state of southern - I mean, South Carolina recognize the folly (ph) of flying a single traitorist flag. And as popular artistic appropriators made clear, we understand that black culture matters. But governor, our historic and ongoing inability as a nation to recognize inherent value and humanity of black bodies contradicts what you said about our nation`s values, because the truth is in the United States, all life is not treated as precious. If anything, black life has been largely regarded disposable which makes a distinct declaration that black lives matter. A radical act that calls for radical action, action that must dismantle the criminal justice system that leads to the over incarceration of black bodies at the rate of six times of that of white bodies, action that must wrecked of a system of economic injustice that has left a legacy, a legacy of a black unemployment rate more than double at the rate of white employment. And with a history of housing discrimination that is contributed to a persistent gap in wealth between White and Black households. Action that would not see another precious life added to a list that already includes (INAUDIBLE), Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray, Tamira Rice, Sandra Bland and so many more. Governor, to openly proclaim that black lives matter, a boldly embrace and center blackness is to make a statement in defiance of all of these injustices. And for you to dismiss it, signals your privilege, something you know a bit about. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: In this country of ours, the most improbable things can happen as well, take that from a guy who met his first president on the day he was born, and the second on the day he was brought home from the hospital. (END VIDEO CLIP) MOCK: Indeed, Governor Bush. An improbable thing has happened, because after a very public reminder from the movement for racial justice, your democratic opponents realize that not only does black life matter but it will also be an unavoidable issue in the 2016 election. So, you may want to get ready because the movement is going to want to hear what your campaign truly stands for and I really don`t think that just Jeb is going to cut it. Sincerely, Janet Mock. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LOUIE: You might have heard about this last month. Caitlyn Jenner introduced herself to the world, and tonight she will make her television debut in "I am Cait." Now in the clip released before the show`s premium, Caitlyn discusses the violence some Trans-Americans face. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CAITLYN JENNER, ACTOR: I feel bad that especially young people are going through such a difficult time in their life. We don`t want people dying over this. We don`t want people murdered over this stuff. What a responsibility I have towards this community. (END VIDEO CLIP) LOUIE: Caitlyn has plenty of reason to worry here, the epidemic of violence against Trans people, especially trans women of color shows no signs of color here, 13 trans women were killed in 2013 and all but one were black or Latina. MOCK: And we`re only halfway through the year, and already 11 are dead according to the LGBT news magazine, "The Advocates." That`s why this morning, I want to make a point of saying these 11 women`s names, Papi Edwards, Lamia Beard, Ty Underwood, Yazmin Vash Payne, Taia Gabrielle Dejesus, Penny Proud, Kristina Gomez Reinwald, London Chanel, Mercedes Williamson, and as of this week, India Clarke and K.C. Haggard. On Tuesday morning, India Clarke was found beat into dust in a Tampa Park. She was 25. And on Thursday night, 66-year-old K.C. Haggard was killed on the sidewalk in Fresno. According to a local trans activist who view footage of the incidents, Haggard sought help after being stabbed but, quote, "no one stopped." She collapsed on the sidewalk and in many pedestrians just did nothing but look at her body on the ground as she bled out. Joining us now are Chase Strangio, staff attorney at the ACLU LGBT and aids project and in Cleveland, Alicia Garza, special projects director at the National Domestic workers Alliance and co-creator of the #blacklivesmatter. Alicia, thank you so much for joining us. You are in Cleveland for the movement for black lives national convening where organizers are being intentionally intersectional about addressing anti-transgender violence as part of the work, right. So what do you see as the connection and commonalities between black live matter and the violence disproportionately facing Tran`s women of color? ALICIA GARZA, CO-CREATOR, #BLACKLIVESMATTER: Well, just to say I think at the relationship between Black Lives Matter as a movement and the violence that is facing trans women of color and black trans women in particular is that it`s an important conversation for us to be having, especially within the black community. What we are seeing here is not only is there an epidemic of violence against black bodies, but certainly within black communities there`s an incredible epidemic against black trans-bodies, And when we talk about black lives mattering, we have to make sure that we are talking about all black lives. And certainly, we are pushing within our movement to insure that black trans-women and their experiences are centered, because quite frankly, when the average life expectancy of a black trans-women is 35-years-old in this country, we have a lot farther to go. LOUIE: Chase, 35 years old. What can we do policy wise? What can we do legally in law? CHASE STRANGIO, STAFF ATTORNEY, ACLU`S LGBT AND AIDS PROJECT: So thank you both for having me today and for naming all of the people who have been murdered this year. I think just as an initial matter as we conceptualize what this violence means, we have to think about it both in terms of violence perpetrated by individuals, but also the systemic violence perpetrated by the state that makes it so that black trans-women in particular have a limited life expectancy that subjects them to premature death. And so, when look at our legal landscape, we have to understand that all of the violence exerted on black bodies that Janet was speaking about in her letter to for governor Bush that we had to understand that is the same violence targeting black trans-bodies. And that we have to understand that our legal interventions must be holistic. We must decrease barriers to healthcare for trans-people. We must decrease barriers to access to housing, to employment, but we also critically must interrupts the cycles of the violence that we just disproportionate incarceration for trans-women of color and black trans-women in particular. LOUIE: So legally, what is the one thing you want to see legally? STRANGIO: Legally, the one - I mean, I think it`s impossible to pick one thing because when we are looking at the systems it`s all interconnected, but the base of this violence has to be located in the criminal legal system and we have to end mass incarceration and we have to disrupt the criminalization of black bodies and black trans-women in particular. MOCK: It`s so powerful, right, we talk about legalities and on the books do we want to see in order to push this conversation forward. But we also know that the other piece of it, not just policy change but also culture change is also important. So I feel like the media`s representation of trans-women, you know, black trans-women is necessary to change it. What do you think about the landscape particularly right now with trans-women of color in media? MOODIE-MILLS: You know, what I think is -- the first issue is that we need to stop misgendering people in the media. And there needs to be some type of fine that is put into place for outlets, for media outlets whether they be print, online, radio or what have you that decide that they are just not going to call people by their name, right? And that they are going to misgender them just because they can. And that`s what we saw with K.C. Haggard, we saw in the press, we have seen it all over the place and it`s ridiculous. There are guidelines that have put in place by GLAD, right, that have been put out to all press outlets. And if you don`t follow them, you should be fined by the FCC. It should be that serious. MOCK: Well, that`s a powerful point to make. I think that there is so much to it. We talk about who gets proper treatment in the media and who doesn`t, right. Alicia, I want to bring it back to you. One person that is getting a lot of attention in the media and whose story is told, and obviously a very celebratory way is Caitlyn Jenner, and you know, reality TV and television. Do you believe that that will -- her story will help change the discourse around this issue? GARZA: I think what it will do is it will provide more exposure to the experiences of some trance women. What I would love to see is more exposure for black trans-women and trans-women of color who certainly don`t have cameras following them, right, but are experiencing extreme and in some cases very painful conditions. What we saw, for example, in the case of K.C., right, is that someone could be murdered on the street and be standing there asking for help and nobody would reach out, right? So you know, I am interested in seeing how those images get populated throughout the media, but I am more interested in thinking about how is it that we visibilize and make visible the experiences of a trans-women of color who are not, you know, living with the level of prestige. I think that`s where we really need to dig in. MOCK: Alicia Garza in Cleveland, thank you so much. And our thanks to Chase Strangio here in New York. Danielle will be back with us in the next hour. LOUIE: And coming up on this topic, Laverne Cox on the vulnerability facing some in the Trans community. MOCK: And I had a chance to sit down with the "Orange is the new black" star. I will bring you that conversation when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: Before Caitlyn Jenner publicly proclaimed her transness, the most widely recognizable Trans woman in America was actress Laverne Cox who appeared on iconic "Time" magazine cover declaring the Trans move it the next civil rights frontier. Laverne`s portrayal of Trans prisoner Sophia Versed (ph) in Netflix`s "Orange is the new black" is a key part of the success of the series, now on its third season. He is also key reason why the show was nominated for an Emmy for outstanding drama series this year. While Laverne`s reach extends far beyond the small screen, the path- clearing actress is also a fierce advocate for trans-people who lack both the spotlight and the privileges that fame affords her. On my show "So Popular" on MSNBC.com`s Shift Network, I had a chance to sit down with Laverne recently and we talked about what it will take to protect the lives of trance people, particularly women of color. The impact of Caitlyn Jenner`s transition and story in visibility and the importance of trans-visibility in popular culture. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LAVERNE COX, ACTRESS: I am hearing so many more stories out of transcript that a friend of mine is doing in (INAUDIBLE) here in New York. That is about taking the experience from the lives of the real trans-people in elevating those stories. So for me, that`s really what it`s about. It`s about elevating more of our stories and telling more of our stories and more of us being visible. And the visibility piece, (INAUDIBLE) reminded us in his trans 100 key note that visibility, unfortunately, my visibility, your visibility because it would be so many brilliant trans did not save lives, did not save all the trans-women of color who being murdered with impunity. So then we need hearts and minds have to significantly change. That even with all the talk, obviously, we need public policy, we need anti-discrimination protections, but we know just because we have public policy that that does not mean that people are still not being murdered and people still not experiencing discrimination. So the hearts and minds of people have to change. That though that would be attacker who is going to, and this is really (INAUDIBLE) about patriarchy. How do we - patriarchy has to be dismantled because - homophobia and Trans about patriarchy. It is about that patriarch`s imaging around what it means to be a man, how his manhood may or may not be threatened by the existence of somebody else. So that is a really key piece. And then we need policies in place to protect our students, for example. I love ab1266 in California. I know a lot of Tran`s students felt so much safer to be themselves because of that public policy. Obviously, these are choosing to be enforced and need to be accountability when they are not informed. MOCK: One of the greatest moments that I think is probably going to shift so many hearts and minds as you mention is Caitlyn Jenner. Public revelations of her identity. I think about, you know, she was one of the, I think one of the first, probably, public figures who the experience isn`t necessarily affected, who explicitly said black trans-women are being murdered with Diane Sawyer piece. And I wonder what do you think the impact of that story will have on these necessary policy and culture changes? COX: What I always believed is that it`s about multiplying transgender stories, and it`s not just about one Tran`s story. That we have Caitlyn`s story now. We have my story. We have your story. So we are beginning to - we were able to see the diversity of experience. And because of Caitlyn`s, the reach of her public platform, so many people -- I was in Paris at a club. I need to have fun, too. In Paris at a club last weekend and I met this guy, and he was like he had seen what I had written on my Tumblr about Caitlyn. And he didn`t know that I was on the cover - he is a fan of "Orange is new Black," but didn`t know that I was in the cover of "Time" magazine. His alleged family doesn`t read "Time" magazine. I don`t think there is anyone who does not know that Caitlyn has transitioned. I really I don`t know if there is anybody who is now - he has not entered that consciousness and to their awareness. And so, the conversation is like being ignited in a very different way. And I think it`s really always about how we have the conversations, how we raise critical awareness around these issues, but I think I am very excited to see what Caitlyn does next with this amazing platform that she has. But I think that kind -- this kind of awareness that she has created is - I mean, you can`t buy it. MOCK: It`s vast and wide and it`s a Kardashian type of thing, too, which, you know, they have a call in media that is just so strong. COX: Whether people who watch "Keeping Up with Kardashians," are not being know Kim Kardashian is and they know who Caitlyn Jenner is and that`s really powerful. (END VIDEOTAPE) MOCK: That`s was just some of my interview it Laverne Cox of "Orange is new Black." And you can see more of our conversation on my show, "So Popular," on MSNBC.com. LOUIE: Great interview. Coming up next, we will talk to the family of Sandra Bland as her name continue to be a rallying cry for the Black Lives Matter movement. MOCK: And on a lighter note, we will get into that twitter beef that nearly broke the Internet this week. More "Nerd Land" at the top of the hour. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: Welcome back. I`m Janet Mock. LUI: Yes. Welcome to the second hour of "Nerd Land" here. I`m Richard Lui. Melissa is off today. You can probably tell Janet and I are in today. Yesterday, hundreds of people gathering and some waiting in line for more than an hour to say a final farewell to Sandra Bland at the suburban Chicago church that she attended for much of her life. During a funeral service before an overflow crowd at the DuPage AME Church in Lisle, Illinois, Bland`s family and friends celebrated her life and remembered her dedication to fighting for social justice. Her mother Geneva Reed-Veal spoke at length during the service about a road trip she and Bland recently took together. She said of her daughter, this. Her purpose was to stop all injustice against blacks in the south. Bland died two weeks ago in a Texas jail just three days after traffic stop ended with her arrest on charges of assaulting a public servant. On Thursday, a Texas prosecutor said, the medical examiner determine the cause of Bland`s death to be a suicide by hanging and said, the autopsy found no evidence of a violent struggle before she died. Now, during yesterday`s service, Bland`s family and friends remained insistent in their disbelief that she took her own life. The circumstances surrounding Bland`s death and arrest drew increased scrutiny this week in the wake of new information released from Texas authorities. A dash cam video provided by the Texas Department of Public Safety shows the encounter that begins with Officer Brian Encinia stopping Bland for failure to signal a lane change before the interaction escalates when Bland questioned his request to put out her cigarette. Now in that recording, Bland initially refuses Officer Encinia`s demand to exit her vehicle before leaving the car when he threatened to use his taser against her. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BRIAN ENCINIA, TEXAS STATE TROOPER: Get out of the car. Get out of the car, now. SANDRA BLAND, FOUND DEAD IN A JAIL CELL: Why am I being apprehended? You`re trying to give me -- ENCINIA: I said get out of the car. BLAND: Why am I being apprehended -- ENCINIA: I`m giving the lawful order, I am going to drag you out of here. BLAND: So, you are going to drag me out of my own car! ENCINIA: Get out of the car! I will light you up! BLAND: Wow. ENCINIA: Now! BLAND: Wow. ENCINIA: Get out of the car! BLAND: For failure to signal, you are doing all of this for failure to signal? ENCINIA: Get over there! (END VIDEO CLIP) LUI: Jail booking forms, you see here, released by the Waller County sheriff`s office have also been called into question for what appeared to be conflicting answers given by Bland about her mental health history. Both a traffic stop and Bland`s death in the Waller County jail remain the subject of ongoing investigations by the Texas rangers who are operating with the assistance of the FBI. And in the meantime, her family and friends, joined by supporters across social media are still awaiting a definitive answer to the question of what happened to Sandra Bland? Joining us now from Chicago is a member of her family, Sandra Bland`s sister, Sharon Cooper, she is joined by their family Attorney Cannon Lambert. Also here in New York, Jonathan Metzl, director of the Center for Medicine, Health and Society, professor of psychiatry at Vanderbilt University. And Danielle Moodie-Mills, contributor to NBC BLK and co-host of "Politini." Thank you both for staying with us. Sharon, we will start with you on this. And I know that the times are not easy, services were held yesterday and we just played some of the sound which is difficult for many to listen to. SHARON COOPER, SANDRA BLAND`S SISTER: Uh-mm. LUI: How are you doing? How is this service yesterday? How is the family coping with this? COOPER: I don`t mean to sound trite, and thank you for having us on this morning, the service was great and it was overwhelmingly heartwarming to have so many people to come out and celebrate Sandra`s life. LUI: Right. COOPER: To be in a position where the church was filled to capacity and that sometimes folks had to be turned away simply due to the fact that there was no parking or no seating, it was just overwhelmingly joyous for my family and I to put her to rest in such a peaceful way, and it was celebratory in nature, and we just -- the gratitude that we continuously express just cannot say thank you enough and the family is doing still as well as can be expected in light of the ongoing investigation surrounding her death. MOCK: Sharon, thank you so much for sharing pieces of Sandra`s life with us, and I just want to ask you about, you know, what has been consistent is your family`s belief and your belief that Sandra did not take her life. COOPER: Uh-mm. MOCK: Can you tell us what you believe happened and about the skepticism of what the Texas authorities have said about Sandy`s death? COOPER: Absolutely. As you can imagine, with the home going services scheduled for yesterday, I have to tell you that I went off the grid, the social media grid for about two days. Late Friday afternoon, you know, to formerly grieve Sandra`s passing and imagine my surprise when I, you know, fully re-engage in the investigation in the matter today to find that there is new dash cam video with a different angle, which is just surprising to me, because when we initially met with the lead investigation from the Texas rangers, we were expressly told that there was one dash cam video only, and so I am now at the point where I simply do not trust the investigation. And that is why we have been calling along with senators around the world, Senator Dick Durbin expressed yesterday that we are calling for the involvement of the DOJ because we simply cannot trust the Texas rangers at this point in terms of their level of authenticity with the investigation. MOCK: You know, Sharon, I -- first, I want to express my heartfelt just condolences to you and your family. One of the things that you have said on many news outlets is your thanks to social media for kind of keeping the story going, and holding traditional media`s feet to the fire, frankly. How should we proceed next in getting justice for your sister? How should we proceed next? What do the next steps look like? COOPER: I will tell you, the tweets that I have received thus far, they are just virtual hugs, if you will. The fact that it`s not just our family that is still right, and Sandra has been gone for almost two weeks as of tomorrow, and we don`t have answers, we`ve made attempts to get them and you have people on social media who just don`t understand as well, who have collectively joined that conversation. So, every tweet that I continue to get, every Facebook post that I continue to get is the world standing in solidarity with our family to say, this does not make sense to me either and I want some answers as well. MOCK: There are so many questions and Cannon, I want to bring you in here, what has the family been told about the progress of the investigation? I know we`ve been kind of told that there may have been reports about a second autopsy being ordered. We would love some clarity around the investigation? CANNON LAMBERT, BLAND`S FAMILY ATTORNEY: Yes. The investigation, as we understand it, by the Texas rangers and by DPS and the like is still ongoing and it`s not complete. I think to echo what was said earlier, though, is that when you have U.S. senators asking for DOJ involvement and because of some of the discrepancies that we have gotten in terms of the information that`s been displayed to us. You know, obviously more questions have to be answered. When you ask what can the media do or what can people do in terms of the next step, and the next step is, continue to ask the questions that are standing in front of us. So that this family can kind of begin getting closure. LUI: Sharon, as we finish this conversation, what was it like for Sandra to be at home, to be in Illinois? Give us a sense of what that was like? COOPER: It felt like she felt an overwhelming sense of peace, peace and joy, and I just felt that for her. The outpouring of love, it was truly something to be part of, and it was an honorable thing to be part of, and there was just a feeling of amazement and wonderment there. It was greater than anything that we could have imagined. LUI: Sharon, thank you for your strength and for being with us here today. We definitely appreciate that. Cannon Lambert as well in Chicago. Appreciate you both. MOCK: Thank you both. LUI: Jonathan and Danielle will stay with us. MOCK: And stay right here, we will have more on this story when we come back. LUI: And later, we will get into that Twitter feud that had everyone taking sides this week. Stick around. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: The arrests and death of Sandra Bland has raised questions about the perception of black women in America. In an article for "The Huffington Post," the episcopal priest and Professor Kelly Brown Douglas writes. "The caricature of black women as angry as the female version of the criminally dangerous black man. Both stereotypes portray black people as hostile and as a threat to wider society. Both suggest people who need to be controlled. Both images have been subtly insinuated into the American psyche, so that to see a black body is to assume it is guilty of something." In the "New York Times," Roxane Gay, author of the bestseller "Bad Feminists" writes, "There is a code of conduct in emergency situations. Women and children first, the most vulnerable among us should be rescued before all others and in reality this code of conduct is white women and children first. Black women, black children, they are not afforded the luxury of vulnerability." So Danielle, the stereotype of the angry and hostile black woman is one that is so prevalent to this day that I believe that many people who may have read or at least seen the Sandra Bland video may perceive it in different ways than black women would actually view the video. DANIELLE MOODIE-MILLS, CO-HOST, "POLITINI": The whole idea around presenting black women as angry is the way to detach them from their womanhood. If we can be seen as the emotional and hysterical people, then it would obviously be assume that authorities needs to tame us, right? That a society needs to tame and temper our behavior. And so you see a video of Sandra Bland who was asking the right questions, right, of an officer who refused to answer her, who refused to see her humanity. So he can dismiss her as being belligerent, so he can dismiss her as being, you know, as being offending his character and his authority. And that just allows them to tame us. To take whatever action they deem necessary in order to keep us subservient and submissive. LUI: And those points, Loretta Lynch just on ABC was discussing that dynamic. And I will play a little bit of that, and then Jonathan I`ll get your reaction to it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think that it highlights the concern of many in the black community that a routine stop for many of our members of the black community is not handled with the same professionalism and courtesy that other people may get from the police. (END VIDEO CLIP) LUI: Jonathan? DR. JONATHAN METZL, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, you know, I think that there is kind of symmetry between the conversation we were having with Miss Cooper before, particularly about the question of mental health and mental illness in this case and the question of violence and stereotypes of violence. And as a psychiatrist, I am often like many psychiatrist asked to weigh in on cases like this and I am very, very torn in this case, because on one hand I think that the Texas kind of demonstrated a casebook of whatnot to do if somebody indeed does have a history of depression or trauma or some of the things that are being vetted around. On the other hand, we know particularly from the angle of race that systems themselves produce insanity, they produce a particular kind of structural violence, produces mental illness in a way. And so, I really want to resist this question about Ms. Bland`s own mental state because I do think that what is being lost here is that there is a long history of structural violence like what we`ve seen here producing mental illness. LUI: You are on the stand, you got to ask the question that Danielle is asking. The removal of personhood and humanhood -- METZL: Yes. LUI: -- by bringing this dynamic of the angry black woman. What do you say? METZL: I say that when we bring this question of mental illness into it, we get the system off of the hook in a particular way. In other words, if we just make it about an individual person`s psychology, we don`t have to take seriously the bigger question that somebody was here pushed against the ground, they were treated in a particular way, and so in a way I would say that I would keep telling the structural story here to say that the stereotype is not one that is coming organically from people of color`s biology or their mind, it`s coming from a system that once treat them in a particular way and not take seriously the bigger context. MOCK: And right, you bring up very enter, it`s an enter laying and enter sectional issue, right, Danielle? Do you think that the Sandra Bland case will -- in her arrests specifically in her death, will it spark a larger discussion about the unique needs to center not only black people but also black women within our, you know, the way in which we talk about police violence? MOODIE-MILLS: That has been one of the major questions around Black Lives Matter even though it was started by three black women is, where is the conversation around black women`s lives. And I do, I do think that in an awful way, right, the purpose of this conversation and us continuing to fight for justice for Sandra Bland is us continuing to fight for justice for black women and how black women are presented in the criminal justice system, which is in mass. And so, you know, one of the things -- I am not a doctor, right, but I have said many times whether if you are on Twitter on what have you, that we are suffering right now as a black community from post-traumatic blackness disorder, right? Where we are seeing every single headline, every single day, is something that is awful, it is a killing, it is a murder, it is hearing that Casey Huggard (ph) was stabbed. And people literally walked around her body and thought that that was something that you do. You stop and you do something. But when people see black bodies maimed or pulled out from something, it`s a justifiable sense that they deserve that because there`s something wrong with our blackness and it comes back to this idea that we need to be tamed and to be put down because we are threatening, we are emotional and we have two much energy that needs to be restrained. LUI: Danielle, Jonathan, thank you so much for that. Up next, new charges for the man accused of killing nine people inside a Charleston church. MOCK: We will dig into the important issues of these new charges and what Attorney General Loretta Lynch had to say about them. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LUI: And welcome back. Tomorrow the man accused of killing nine people in a Charleston, South Carolina church will be arraigned on new federal hate crime charges and the immediate aftermath of the June 17th shooting, there was some debate about this, Dylann Roof`s motive. Even though a witness said, Roof stood up, declared he was at the Emanuel AME Church to quote, "shoot black people." But his indictment on federal hate crimes charges Wednesday, makes it clear that what federal authorities believed was his motivation. Roof already faces nine counts of murder in state court but South Carolina does not have a hate crime law. And by mounting a federal case, the Justice Department is spelling out its belief the killings were rooted in racial hatred. Here`s Attorney General Loretta Lynch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We have here a defendant who was alleged to have harbored discriminatory views towards African-Americans, to have sought out an African-American house of worship, one that was particularly noted because of its age and significance and he also sought out African-American parishioners at worship, implicating several hate crimes statutes and we think that this is exactly the type of case that the federal hate crime statutes were in fact conceived off to cover. Racially motivated violence such as this, is the original domestic terrorism. (END VIDEO CLIP) LUI: And joining us now to talk more about the hate crimes charges, Vince Warren, executive director of the Center for Constitutional Rights. Vince, as we look at what Loretta Lynch was saying here, the original terrorism. VINCE WARREN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: Yes. This is a classic example of the federal government stepping in where actually where state law does approach the -- make the right approach but doesn`t quite get to the nature of the problem here, and the problem is not that he just intended to kill people, but he intended to kill black people in a church. Those are two things that are typically associated with hate crime laws and that the federal government is stepping in because South Carolina is one of five states that doesn`t have any hate crimes legislation. MOCK: What is the importance of putting that particular distinction on this -- like you know, this nine-person murder? WARREN: Well, let`s be clear that under state law, he is already being charged for nine murders and attempted murders, but the reason why hate crimes happen is because, number one, it`s supposed to detour the type of behavior that is targeting people because of who they are, protected class two, these types of crimes tend to send a message to communities more than regular murders do. And three, that is really, it`s looking to create some sort of healing in communities through this type of prosecution. MOCK: So, the message that it would send to extremists communities, right? And what would lead a young person to develop those kinds of extreme views that leads to that kind of violence. METZL: Well, I would like to pick up on what on what Vince are saying, because I mean, the goal here, I mean, you couldn`t have a more guilty person right now. It`s very, very clear. I think the purpose of calling this a hate crime is several. One is that there is a tendency, particularly when a shooter is white to individuate the problem. We`ve very often say, oh, this is just one bad apple, this is one person who had a particular meant to illness. And what a hate crime does is it allows us to put a crime within a particular social context, almost like terrorism to say there`s a bigger politics to this. And it leads us to not only put it in the political context, it also lets us talk about race. I think the worry in South Carolina was that if it was not a hate crime, the racial aspect even though it was clear as day here would not have been at the fore. And the last part is, it doesn`t let us just talk about the race of the victims, it also lets us talk about whiteness in a particular way, that there`s a particular race at play here, not just in the victims but at the perpetrator of these crimes. And so, I think it`s very important because it allows us to tell the bigger cultural story which helps us to address the question that everybody wants to know which is why did he do it. LUI: So, that`s on the outside you`re talking, this on the inside as we look at hate crimes or look at motivation and laws, look at intent certainly. But to understand hate within itself, how does that work? You are in there pushing for a case, pushing for your client, and it seems -- how does this come about? WARREN: Well, you have to look at the facts and circumstances. LUI: Right. WARREN: So, it does matter that there was a witness there that said that he uttered those words and that is evidence that is going to be used to show that this crime was motivated by trying to kill a particular group. But, you know, there`s actually a broader concept here which is that hate crimes, while they are very important and I think that they are necessary - - LUI: Right. WARREN: We`re still in a situation where we are trying to prosecute our way out of a social problem, and the other side of this is while it`s very well and good that the prosecutions are moving forward, we have to ask ourselves if the government expands itself to have this type of power either in the terrorist context or the hate context, while we might agree in this particular case, it`s a lawful use, if that was a good thing. Now everybody is like, why is the government spying on us? So, it`s also a challenge when you passed laws and you used political motivation in the context of a particulars. LUI: So, how do you improve hate crimes? WARREN: Hate crimes have to be improved in two ways. Number one, we have to make sure that the prosecutors are using the right evidence to be able to prosecute particular crimes based on evidence that we can all agree on is hateful. We have to be careful about using these types of cases in celebrated cases where there`s a tendency to over prosecute based upon large groups that the government wants to investigate. I think it`s fine to prosecute individuals but if we think about this, if the shooter had been Muslim, it would be an entirely different conversation, and they would be infiltrating the entire Muslim community and not trying to really assuage the black community. So, this type of power can be used for good but we have to be very, very careful about how we use it. MOCK: But it doesn`t continue to just kind of uphold the ways in which we then, you know, say that, white victimhood is one in which we are going to prosecute, you know, people of color, more harshly? METZL: Well, it`s also been important to note that our current hate crime legislation comes out of the civil rights era, out of the, you know, 1968 legislation. So, in a way, there is a racially protective aspect and you are taking care of groups of people that have not been treated fair under the law, so I agree with you, it`s a balance. MOCK: So, what does it all say about Loretta Lynch`s approach to racial justice in her work? WARREN: Loretta Lynch is I think approaching her position with all of the brilliance that we expected her to approach it with. But I think also with a certain amount of heart that you don`t always see in attorney generals, which I find very refreshing. She seems to be quite clear from the comments that we have seen, number one, what the prosecutorial authority is, but I think also what that authority means in the context of the current situation. So, it is not nothing that there is no hate crimes legislation currently in South Carolina, just like it`s not nothing that a flag was flying over the capitol. LUI: Jonathan talked about that. Federal versus state hate crimes and why that makes a difference here? METZL: Sure. But I mean, you know, I do wonder very often, you know, if Ed Meese was the attorney general right now, would we be having the same level of intervention from the federal government. I completely agree that in a way, the federal government comes in at times when the state government is not -- potentially not paying attention or doesn`t have the infrastructure to pay attention to the particular aspects. Like I actually wanted to ask Vince if he was surprised that the attorney general used the word "terrorism" in her description of this? WARREN: Yes. I was not surprised. But I do find the aspect of it problematic, because we really should not start conflating heinous crimes that are committed with terrorist crimes. They are separate and distinct, although it might field to the community when that targeting is happening that it`s the same thing. But they are separate in this thing. And that`s a road that I think we need to be concerned about. But I do think if we think about federal intervention and state laws, this goes back to the strategies in 1950s and the `60s, where in the south there were no state mechanisms to get justice. And that civil rights lawyers and advocates really looked to the federal government in things like this. And so, this is a long continuation of a battle. But what I think is interesting, is that South Carolina seems to be tipping a little bit, this discussion about the flag, and the chance that after six or seven tries that the hate crimes might actually pass this time. I am not suggesting that we have a complete ground shift, but it`s a different strategy that I think can be deployed moving forward. LUI: And when you look at states that do or do not have hate crimes in place, what does that tell us about those specific states? WARREN: Well, I think it tells us, number one, that these laws get passed by legislators and so that the legislators are responding to communities that see these things as important. I would venture to say the reason why South Carolina has not had hate crime statutes is not because people have not put them forward but because whatever the values are that those statute represent had not really sunk into the value system of the legislature before. METZL: I think it would be interesting in Louisiana where we had just another tragic shooting, that seemed to be at least at some level connected to hate ideologies, but the victims were white and it was a different kind of shooting. Louisiana does have hate crime legislation. And it will be interesting to see what plays out there in light of the case also. LUI: All right. Jonathan Metzl, Vince Warren, great conversation. Thank you so much. MOCK: And we do want to note this one correction. The arraignment for Dylann Roof has been moved to Friday, July 31st. Still to come, President Obama is on his way to Ethiopia this morning. LUI: Why it`s another important first for the commander-in-chief. We`ll tell you about that after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LUI: President Obama continues his trip in East Africa today, starting the day with a speech in-front of thousands in Nairobi, Kenya. And then participating at a town hall style meeting about civil society before heading to Ethiopia. NBC News senior White House correspondent Chris Jansing is traveling with the President and filed this report for us from Nairobi. CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Richard and Janet. Well, today`s speech was always supposed to be sort of the highlight of his visit to his ancestral homeland but it really was an opportunity to see the enthusiasm of the crowds and motorcade on the way in. Thousands of people lining the streets. Some could not contain themselves and they were actually chasing after it and shouting his name and we saw after the 45-minutes speech, people were pushing so hard to have a chance to shake the hand of the leader of the free world that the secret service actually hustled him back on to the stage and off. That`s the popularity that he wanted to use in the speech to push for change here, a country that is seen economic growth, the move towards democracy but it is still at the crossroads of progress and peril. He again reiterated that this is a country that needs to move away from corruption, it`s costing too much. And for the first time we heard him really pushing for women and girls and saying it`s not acceptable for them to be second class citizens anymore, and they talked about the areas of cooperation, like counterterrorism and ways in which he expect the United States and Kenya to move forward. He now has gone on to Ethiopia, a country with many of the same problems with things like terrorism, with corruption and even a more difficult challenge with democracy and there are a lot of people who suggested that the President should not go there in the last election, the prime minister got 100 percent of the vote, but as his aides point out he goes to places like China, and that you don`t always go to places where you agree with the leadership but you go there to push for our democratic values -- Richard. LUI: All right. NBC`s Chris Jansing there. Thank you so much for that in Nairobi for us. MOCK: Up next, before they worked it out, it was an all-out Twitter feud. LUI: Oh, yes, it was. What Nicky and Taylor tell us about feminism, pop culture and body politics? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: Tuesday, MTV announced the nominations for the video of the year. And then the internet broke. As you might know, Nicki Minaj whose video for Anaconda broke the Viva record for the most views in 24 hours last August took issue with her exclusion from the video of the year category. She tweeted this, "When the other girls drops a video that breaks record and impacts culture, they get that nomination." She followed with, "If your video celebrates women with very slim bodies, you will be nominated for vid of the year." Taylor Swift who is highly publicized start-studded that blood video topped the viewing record set by Anaconda apparently took Nicki`s criticism personally. The former country music star tweeted Nikki her take on the issue. "Nicki Minaj, I`ve done nothing but love and support you. It`s unlike you to pit women against each other. Maybe one of the men took your slot." The two continued to tweet back and forth with Swift eventually making this offer, "If I win, please come up with me. You are invited to any stage I am ever on." Nominees Bruno Mars and Ed Sheeran decided to jokingly join the apparent feud by ribbing each other. Artists like Azalea Banks and Katie Perry, the woman who allegedly inspired the bad blood video also jump in with tweets of their own. And then came think pieces with reminders that feminism fully inclusive, egalitarian feminism is about so much more than girl grow crew love. Take journalist Jill Filipovic for example who wrote, "Even among some of the most fortunate and famous women in the world, womanhood is a different experience when you are a woman of color, and women who deviate from straight white American norm are sidelined by the same people who claim to be advocates for women generally." Now, Taylor Swift or Taylor was swift to apologize for her -- I mean -- (LAUGHTER) "I thought I was being called out. I missed the point. I misunderstood and then misspoke. I`m sorry, Nicki." Minaj accepted the apology on Twitter and during her Friday "Good Morning America" appearance. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NICKI MINAJ, SINGER: She was, you know, super, super sweet and she apologized, she said, you know, look, I did not understand the big picture of what you were saying and now I get it. So, we`re all good. But yes, I was just saying, I posted something on my Instagram, and it showed the stats of other videos that had been nominated previously, and there just seemed to be a little funny business going on. (END VIDEO CLIP) MOCK: Legendary side eye. Twitter talk it over and artist is back and forth calls into question industry bias, feminism in the music world, and the success of women in color in popular culture. Back at the table, Danielle Moodie-Mills, contributor to NBC BLK and co- host of "Politini." And joining us, journalist and lawyer who we just quoted, Jill Filipovic. Jill, did Taylor Swift finally get the point or maybe her missing the point initially, culture fans get the point. JILL FILIPOVIC, JOURNALIST AND LAWYER: I hope so. I was glad to see Taylor apologize. I was glad to see her say, you know what, I misinterpreted, this wasn`t about me, this is about a bigger issue. And I`ve been really pleased to see that every time Nicki Minaj was asked about it, she gets one sentence that Taylor Swift twitter beef, and then she gets right back on the topic of racism and sexism in the music industry. And I think that pivot, I mean, having that conversation on "Good Morning America" is a huge deal and it`s really important and it`s really excellent that she keeps refocusing on her point and making the conversation about this much more important topic than just the Twitter beef. MOCK: Richard, I really want to know what do you think about this whole Twitter beef. (LAUGHTER) LUI: You are the expert on this. MOCK: I am the expert. LUI: You are the expert on this. Yes. MOCK: Okay. So, what I find interesting about this conversation is how the men kind of jumped in a little bit, and I wonder was that trivializing the intense conversation that Nicki was trying to have. MOODIE-MILLS: Yes, it absolutely did. And once again, we have men that comment and trivialize something that is a very important issue. And I was absolutely annoyed by it. Like here`s Nicki Minaj talking about the music industry and talking about how women of color are traditionally sidelined unless of course they are backup singers for white artists, which we have seen. We start Janelle Monae able to collect an award because she was a back-up singer for, you know, for fun. And so this idea that, oh, here is something serious, let`s then, you know, pivot to like -- LUI: Right. MOODIE-MILLS: -- poke fun at each other misses the extreme point, which is that there is racism and misogyny in the music industry in America, and this is just one area where, its example, where you can see it, a spotlight being shined on it because of these two big stars. LUI: And going at the level lower into the table here is, when we look at feminism which really bring me up in the lead up to this conversation, is how feminism is different for those who -- and this is obviously a topic discussed at length, how it`s different but exhibiting itself here in this Twitter feud, how it`s different between white women and black women or women of color, and that difference, when we talk about the idea of what feminism is. MOCK: Yes. I also wonder how do we keep everything intersectional, right, when I am talking about my own feminism, I`m constantly trying to think about the spaces in which I am not speaking at all. Right? Ebolism sometimes, you know, I have often speak what trans mess and being a woman of color, being a black woman and what all those speak about. So how do we have these conversations because they bubble up over and over and over, right? And we saw it with Amy Schumer recently as well. LUI: And discuss how it is different for those who may not be at that level, because when we talk about men or others engaging in the conversation, it could be that they just don`t understand that there are some distinctions there. FILIPOVIC: Definitely. And I mean, that`s part of the reason why I think we really cannot make celebrities feminist spokes people, I think that`s great. That Taylor identifies he`s a feminist. I think it`s great that Nicki Minaj I don`t think publicly identifies he`s a feminist, but it`s this very publicly independent strong, you know, self-assured woman, I think all of that was incredibly important. You know, but if you have somebody like Taylor Swift who just had her identifying as feminist a year ago and probably is not super well versed in feminists theory and maybe it doesn`t know what the word intersectional is. I don`t think you want her to be the spokeswoman for a feminism. I think that she can be a great entry point for feminism. And I hope that by, you know, publicly identifying as a feminist publicly kind of screwing up here. It does opens up this greater debate where people that are Taylor Swift fans that many have also never heard the word intersectional can see on Twitter that this, you know, sort of debate is blowing up. They can click if they want to read the, you know, tens of think pieces that have been written about it. And hopefully then broaden their understanding, and that people like you, Janet, who is much more educated in what feminism means, who comes to it, from a very different place than somebody like Taylor Swift does. And can say, oh, feminism does mean all these different things, and it means different things for different women and you know, Taylor Swift feminism is not the beginning and end of what this movie -- MOCK: And that is also what I love about popular culture as an accessible tool to talk about this deeper issues and hopefully educating enlighten people about them. But I have to talk about the EW, the Entertainment Weekly online story that reported on the Twitter feud between these two women, right? When -- I did not really see it so much of the feud but that`s a whole other thing. But I want to talk about the -- LUI: Tell us. MOCK: You know, they had -- kind of replace -- they were forced to replace the story after they used a very interesting photos that kind of skewed the way in which Nicki Minaj was portrayed within. MOODIE-MILLS: And you came back with your own pick stitch which was brilliant, because of course, again, we have the angry black woman troop that they were using in this time instead of, in words, they were using the imagery, right? And so they had this very, you know, beautiful angelic looking Taylor Swift, you know, like this, and then Nicki Minaj with this crazed wide-eyed, you know, probably a stamp from a video, and here is the split. And you are like, well, wait a minute, Nicki Minaj was the one having a very intellectualized conversation about how she says herself and other women in the music industry and why they are not being recognized. And I think one of the best things that they have said and I think it`s on the cover of "Ebony" right now, and the man -- Sandburg (ph) said it, when she was talking about Caitlyn Jenner is that, you know, you have these white women who love black culture but dismiss the understanding and the cultural weight that black people have to actually go through. So Nicki Minaj is having a conversation about how black women influence the music industry like nobody else and then are pushed aside because as not seeming mainstream. But you appropriate black culture than you`re getting an award for it. LUI: All right. Thank you. MOCK: Yes, thank you so much, Danielle Moodie-Mills and Jill Filipovic. Up next, making a splash and busting nets. LUI: That`s right. The piranhas are in "Nerd Land." Stick around for that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MOCK: Growing up in Hawaii, I spent a lot of time in water. It was kind of hard to avoid when you`re on the island, right? LUI: You`re bragging. MOCK: I am. I man. But this isn`t the case for many black people. The USA Swimming Foundation found that 70 percent of African-American children cannot swim. And according to the CDC, black children ages five through 19 drown in swimming pools at rates five-and-a-half times higher than those of white people. But a group of Brooklyn youngsters on the Bed-Stuy YMCA Piranha Swim Team are defying those statistics or schooling their competition in the poll. The Bed-Stuy Piranhas had been making a splash since the `90s, and 18 of their 45 swimmers qualified for state championships this year. LUI: Joe Piranhas go wide. Joining us right now, 11-year-old Ashley Renwick, one of the Piranhas that qualified for the state championship in the 50-yard free style. Yes, we also have her younger brother, team-mate eight-year-old Matthew, and then the guy behind all this, Dordy Jourdain, the executive director of the Bedford-Stuyvesant YMCA -- DORDY JOURDAIN, DIRECTOR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BEDFORD-STUYVESANT YMCA: Thank you. LUI: Welcome all three. JOURDAIN: Thank you for having us. LUI: Ashley, favorite stroke, what is it, free style, I guess? ASHLEY RENWICK, BED-STUY YMCA PIRANHA SWIM TEAM: Yes. LUI: Yes. Why? A. RENWICK: I qualified for it in state championship. LUI: Right. A. RENWICK: And I placed 11th. LUI: Eleventh? Congratulations. And we`ll have this picture of you right here, right? That`s you and -- you must be fast. MOCK: So, what got you started swimming? What made you want to get in that pool? A. RENWICK: Well, we started when we were eight-months-old. MOCK: You`ve been doing it forever basically. A. RENWICK: Yes. LUI: Do you start when you`re eight months as well? MATTHEW: No, I started when I was one. Because -- LUI: You are an old guy. One-year-old, come on. Joking. JOURDAIN: That would be our shrimp program, that`s you`re (INAUDIBLE) MATTHEW RENWICK, BED-STUY YMCA PIRANHA SWIM TEAM: Yes. MOCK: What are some of your favorite swimmers that you see like in the Olympics, or on the national stage? A. RENWICK: William Neil and Olia Atkinson. MOCK: She`s from Jamaica, is that correct? And how about yours? M. RENWICK: Michael Phelps. Because he`s good at butterfly, and butterfly is also my favorite stroke. MOCK: And I also hear, you left, you`re going to leave track to dedicate full-time to swimming, is that true? M. RENWICK: Yes. Because I`ve been doing swimmer much longer and I`m better at it. And I just started track. Yes. LUI: You can do everything. You`re kind of like an all-fielder is what we like to say. Daugherty, I`m a big Y fan, 20-year-old, I shouldn`t say 20 year old -- for 20 years -- MOCK: For 20 years. LUI: Yes. For 20 years. I was a Y kid. This is so important. Talk about the swim programs. We have the dynamics that Janet was describing in terms of that 5.5 likelihood to drown for African-Americans versus non- African-Americans. JOURDAIN: Right. Well, first of all, we are incredibly proud of our Bedford-Stuyvesant YMCA Piranhas. They`re success in the pool, they`re challenging of the myths around young black people and swimming. It takes a real amount of dedication and hard work to swim at the level that they do. And the fact that they exhibit these values at early ages is really truly wonderful. Swimming programs at the Y, we feel it is vital that swimming skills are incredibly vital to young people and their success. And their ability, the challenges related to drowning. LUI: A couple years between the two -- the three of you, when you were growing up, and when you look at here Ashley and Matthew, different experience from when you were growing up. JOURDAIN: Absolutely. Growing up for me, swimming wasn`t a part of the activity that we participated in. I had been a city kid. Black -- basketball, the community pool which is only open in July, in August. It`s not recommended for learning to swim. So, those were challenges. This is where -- a community based organization that provides swimming, structural swimming year around for young people. MOCK: And Ashley, what advice would you give to other kids who maybe a little scare to learn how to swim? A. RENWICK: You just should relax and not be too tense. MOCK: Just relax and not be too tense. Matthew? M. RENWICK: Yes. Because, like, if you get, like, scared, it`s not going to help at all. And later on you`ll see that you`ll really like it. MOCK: And it`s a lot of fun, I`m sure, right? Ashley Renwick, Matthew Renwick and Dordy Jourdain, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. LUI: Good piece of advice for us. Right? It could be that every day. Just like, relax, breathe. You know, you could do that every day before we go on TV. That`s our show for today. Thanks for sticking around with us. Janet myself enjoyed it. MOCK: Yes. And Melissa will be back next Saturday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. And you can catch my Shift show, "So Popular" Fridays, at 11 a.m. Eastern on MSNBC.com. Now, it`s time for preview of "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT." Alex. ALEX WITT, MSNBC HOST, "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT": Appropriately named, "So Popular." I love that show. You should know that. Thank you guys. Good to talk to you both. And for all of you out there, coming up at the top of the hour, has the criticism aimed at Donald Trump hurt his campaign for president? We`ll show you a new NBC News poll about how he`s doing in the early voting states. Also, the arrest of Sandy Bland. Were the state trooper`s demands legal? And what legal recourse remains for her family? I`ll speak with Defense Attorney Tom Mesereau. And tonight, a story about acceptance and transformation. There is for the first time, what we can learn from "I am Cait," and Caitlyn Jenner`s journey. Don`t go anywhere. I`ll be right back from Los Angeles. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END