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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 4/21/2017

Guests: Jonathan Allen, Amie Parnes, Jean-Bernard Cadier, Margaret Carlson, Ryan Streeter, Michael Tomasky, Christian Bale, Oscar Isaac, John Prendergast

Show: HARDBALL Date: April 21, 2017 Guest: Jonathan Allen, Amie Parnes, Jean-Bernard Cadier, Margaret Carlson, Ryan Streeter, Michael Tomasky, Christian Bale, Oscar Isaac, John Prendergast CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST:  "Shattered."

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Jack Kennedy once said that victory has 100 fathers, defeat is an orphan.  Well, tonight, we discuss the first detailed account of why Hillary Clinton, with first class mind, top drawer staff and vast campaign wealth lost the 2016 presidential campaign.

What went wrong with her second run for the White House?  It`s all in a new book called "Shattered," which is how many of Hillary Clinton`s supporters could feel after reading this book and reliving the hell of November 2016 all over again.

Journalists Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes spoke with more than 100 sources throughout the Clinton campaign providing them information about the true inside of her world.  They learned that the dysfunction, infighting and leaking that dogged Clinton`s failed 2008 effort persisted again eight years later, writing, "The campaign was an unholy mess, fraught with tangled lines of authority, petty jealousies and distorted priorities and non sense of greater purpose.  No one was in charge, and no one figured out how to make the campaign about something bigger than Hillary."

But Allen and Parnes concluded the most significant challenge that reemerged from the 2008 campaign in 2016 was the candidate herself.  The authors say, quote, "What Hillary couldn`t quite see is that no matter how she recast the supporting roles in this production or emphasized different parts of the script, the main character hadn`t changed, nor could the campaign see the iceberg -- that`s what I`m calling it, like we`re seeing off of Newfoundland and staring them right in the face, the unpredictable and aggressive iceberg of Donald Trump.  Their general election opponent came to them by surprise."


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  With me, I ate (ph) a lot of states that aren`t even in play for anybody else.  I mean, I had all of the Rust Belt states.  I owe state -- I own states that -- I will get states that are unbelievable, that are unthinkable for the Republican Party.


MATTHEWS:  Well, authors Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes join me right now.  You know, I did -- when I saw that iceberg this morning, that giant iceberg looking out the window from Newfoundland, I go, This must have been what it was like when you`re the Hillary people, all these geniuses, and all of a sudden, this gigantic thing hits you on election night.

How come they didn`t spot it before, Amie...


MATTHEWS:  ... this thing called Trumpism, whatever it is.

PARNES:  Yes, she -- we have a scene in the book where she`s actually wondering -- you know, there was this rise of populism happening around her.  She doesn`t quite understand it.  She`s talking to an adviser while flying on an airplane and saying, I don`t really understand what`s happening.  I can`t quite grasp what`s going on around me.

And I think that was actually very emblematic of the president and something that kind of foreshadowed what the general election would look like, as well, when she opposed Trump.

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, did you see it?  Did either of you see it, this populist -- I thought -- I talked about it on the show all the time.  I got a record of that.  But it was always, like, two thirds of what I saw.

I said nobody likes -- nobody likes -- a lot of people don`t like illegal immigration, but nobody seems to like the loss of manufacturing base in this country and nobody really likes all these stupid wars.  So I thought he had the trifecta.  But I kept looking at the polls and I did not see him winning in Pennsylvania or the other states like that, but it was there.  That iceberg was there.

JONATHAN ALLEN, CO-AUTHOR, "SHATTERED":  Yes, we talk about this in the introduction to the book.  What we saw was what everybody else saw, which was the polling that showed her winning the presidency, and we trusted the only data available.

MATTHEWS:  And in the states.

ALLEN:  ... right -- in terms of what did we think on election day.  That said, we`d done so much reporting going in that showed some of the flaws and some of the weaknesses and some of the things that she was unable to do as a candidate, that the campaign was unable to do, that we actually didn`t have to go back and change very much.  In fact, funny little side story...

MATTHEWS:  Did you see who was going to win ahead of time in the Electoral College?  Did you see who was going to win in the Electoral College?



MATTHEWS:  What about the -- every campaign -- I remember interviewing -- I`m older than you guys.  I interviewed Carville before the campaign in `92 when they really did pull a great campaign together.  I mean, he and Stephanopoulos and all those people and -- they put together a hell of a campaign.  And Paul did, too, all those people, and the candidates, Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

He said a campaign is about a big idea, that accent of his -- big idea.  Was there a big idea to the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2016?


MATTHEWS:  A big idea.

ALLEN:  That`s the problem.  She`d been running for president for so long, at least 10 years, and she still wasn`t able to convince enough voters in the right places that she had a vision for the country, that one big idea under which everything else could kind of be subsumed.

MATTHEWS:  What about the woman thing, the fact -- first woman president?  Was that something she -- I get the feeling that she sort of ran on that the first time but seemed to hesitate campaigning on that argument, give the women of this country, the majority of people who vote...

PARNES:  Right.

MATTHEWS:  ... a candidate who can be president.

PARNES:  She actually didn`t run on it last time.

MATTHEWS:  I didn`t think so.

PARNES:  Yes, and kind of over-corrected this time and sought to do that.  In our first book, we actually talk about that, where she`s kind of, you know, grappling with that at the end, the fact that she (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS:  So you believe that she did it -- she ran on gender to some extent in `08 but didn`t do it in `16.

PARNES:  She didn`t do it in `08, and she did in `16.


PARNES:  Yes, in a lot of -- and she wanted to address that actually at the very end of the `08 campaign.  She wanted to kind of correct it then, and she did for the 2016 campaign.  She spoke to women.  She tried to aim towards women.

MATTHEWS:  Let`s talk about the conditions again.  My reference to the wild thing about icebergs showing up all of a sudden.  Did she know there was a difference between `08, because I don`t think I knew it either, or anybody, the change in the cosmos, the way things felt, the zeitgeist, if you will?  The country was in a mood in `16.  Bernie did incredibly well.  Nobody could predict it.  In fact, Bernie confronted me with that one day, said, You want to call me a fringe, a fringe.


MATTHEWS:  You know?  And he came on with that Brooklyn accent and everything, and he just wowed everybody, especially young people.  Nobody saw that coming.  And on the other side, on the right, I guess you`d call Trump -- I`m not sure right even means Trump -- whatever that thing is out there, Trump.  That also surprised.

ALLEN:  But there was a harbinger for her in 2008 when she ran against Barack Obama, who ran as an outsider and lit up the grass roots against her.  Remember, she was supposed to be the candidate that was nominated in 2008.  She ran as a steady candidate, as somebody who could get things done...

MATTHEWS:  3:00 o`clock in the morning.

ALLEN:  ... against Barack Obama, who -- right, against Barack Obama, who was change.  This time in 2016, she changed a lot of the tactics, but that big sort of overarching message against Bernie Sanders she ended up winning, first female nominee of a major party, huge accomplishment, and we talk about that in the book.

But then by the time she gets to Donald Trump, she`s hemmed back into this place where she is being the status quo against a candidate of change in a change election.  And I think one of the lessons -- and there are a lot of them in this book -- for future Democratic candidates, Republican candidates, people who watch the political process is the voters want to know what you`re going to do for them that is different than what`s going on right now.  It`s that one big idea you`re talking about.

MATTHEWS:  The name of the book is -- by the way, I (INAUDIBLE) because I love this kind of book.  The beach is coming, but even before the beach comes this summer, you can buy this book and read it.  It`s called "Shattered."  It`s -- it`s catnip.

Anyway, in the book you write about campaign manager Robby Mook`s strategy starting in the primary.  You say, "He and his team were trying to keep the margin closer by turning out supporters in vote-rich areas, which often meant having to talk Hillary and Bill out of traveling away from the population centers to convert Bernie`s fans.  These decisions were guided by data analytics, which evaluated the likelihood that each voter would show up and back Hillary, and Mook`s dogmatic belief that it was better to focus on turning out supporters than persuading a rival`s voters to switch candidates."

In other words, instead of going out and proselytizing and trying to get moderates or people on the left, if you will, progressive left, to vote for her, they said, No, we`re going to go to the regular Clinton voters.

PARNES:  Right.  And analytics was something that actually really angered Bill Clinton.  He was saying, you know, I`m getting a different feel on the ground.  He was reporting back to Brooklyn and saying, Something doesn`t feel quite right.  But they were so reliant on data and analytics that they were kind of reporting something back to him.  But he was always kind of sounding the alarm, raising the red flags, going, This isn`t quite right.

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Did you notice -- did you notice covering the campaign that your anecdotal was different than the statistics?  I kept getting it at the end, my brothers and people (INAUDIBLE) and (INAUDIBLE)  I keep hearing things that people are not really -- they shouldn`t be for Trump and they are.

ALLEN:  That`s what...

MATTHEWS:  That people, the pro-life people, showing up and -- this doesn`t fit with the numbers we`ve been getting from the experts.

ALLEN:  And that`s what we found when we were reporting the book.  We couldn`t -- we for a long time had difficulty with this gap between the sort of stories that we were reporting and the fact that she was up in the polls, which is why we say -- you know, we expected her to win on election night.

MATTHEWS:  OK, let`s -- let`s talk about the supreme court poll in Pennsylvania, which amazed me.  The guy said that if you poll with a real person on the phone, Hillary won by 8.  If you poll with a robocall, a recorded voice, Trump won by 3...

PARNES:  Right.

MATTHEWS:  ... which told me what I always thought, which was people weren`t proud to be voting for Trump when they`re talking to some perfectly articulate person (INAUDIBLE) this person will think I`m a racist if I say I`m for Trump.

PARNES:  Right.  Right.  It`s funny, too, because one of her advisers circulated a memo back in the spring that basically said, Add a few points to each poll, and predicted that some...

MATTHEWS:  Who`s this person?

PARNES:  We can`t say!

MATTHEWS:  Why can`t you say?  This person is the one hero of your book!  This person said always add 3 points...

PARNES:  Right.  In fact...

MATTHEWS:  ... to Trump.

PARNES:  ... Donald Trump can win.

MATTHEWS:  Why would this person want to stay secret?  Why don`t they tell us who -- I want a genius here.


ALLEN:  Chris, you`re a wonderful interviewer...

MATTHEWS:  I know!

ALLEN:  ... but we`ve got to hold back on the source.


MATTHEWS:  OK, let`s talk about this.  Anyway, staff from the Clinton campaign itself dispute the reporting in this book.  I want to get the one fact they want to fight about.  Nick Merrill, who is a respected guy, the press secretary for the campaign, issued a statement saying, "President Obama and Secretary Clinton spoke only once on election night, only once.  The rest of that recounting is simply incorrect, which we told the authors.  It`s an indication that whoever they were speaking to had no idea what they were talking about, but it was a knowable fact that we made clear didn`t happen."

OK, let`s talk about that.  How many times did Hillary Clinton talk to Barack Obama election night when she lost?

PARNES:  Twice.  And not only that, there`s a call that came in from David Seamus (ph), his political director, to John Podesta, right after John spoke on the stage at the Javitts Center.

ALLEN:  To Robby Mook.


ALLEN:  From Seamus to Mook.  And then there was an Obama call to Podesta.  There were about four calls between the White House...

MATTHEWS:  How many times did the two presidents -- the president and the candidate talk?

ALLEN:  Two.

MATTHEWS:  For sure.

ALLEN:  Yes.

MATTHEWS:  You stand by that.

ALLEN:  Yes.

MATTHEWS:  So these people that are -- why would Nick Merrill be putting out -- why are they arguing about this factoid, this one fact thing?

ALLEN:  I can`t explain their strategy.  I would say this, though...

MATTHEWS:  Your voice is getting lower now, by the way.


MATTHEWS:  I mean, you`re not belting it out there, Jon.  You`re sure of this?

ALLEN:  No, no.  Yes.  Absolutely.  Two calls.  And let me say this, too.  This is -- the story that we do here, the tick-tock at the end of this campaign on election night, in the Peninsula (ph) Hotel, as she`s finding out she`s losing the presidency, is the time in this book and in reality where she is the most sympathetic throughout this entire campaign process.

You really -- I mean, as you read through this, you really get -- you get a feel for what she`s going through.

MATTHEWS:  Who`d she blame personally, when she lost?

PARNES:  Comey and Russia.

ALLEN:  And a little bit Obama.


PARNES:  Comey and Russia.

ALLEN:  And a little bit Obama (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS:  And not about her own people.  She wasn`t blaming Mook or blaming Podesta or anybody else or...

PARNES:  No, no, no.

MATTHEWS:  ... or Benenson.  Anyway, you also say that Bill Clinton wasn`t happy with Mook`s strategy, writing, "Mook wanted Bill in places where the most Hillary-inclined voters would see him.  That meant talking to white liberals and minorities in cities and their close-in suburbs.  That was one fault line of massive generational divide between Bill and Mook, that separated old-time political hustling from modern data-driven vote collecting."

I`m with the old-time hustling.  I think most candidates win because they go outside.  Kennedy did it back in the `50s in Massachusetts.  You can`t just go to the usual suspects.  You can`t just be Walter Mondale and rely on the unions to come in and the liberals to come in because it`s never 50 percent!

ALLEN:  Right.  You can`t just...

MATTHEWS:  Don`t they know this?

ALLEN:  You would think.  Bill Clinton`s whole game in politics is persuading people who are on the fence or don`t agree with him.

MATTHEWS:  He did it five or six times in Arkansas.

ALLEN:  Right.  I mean, he knows...

MATTHEWS:  A conservative state.

ALLEN:  Go out and talk to folks who don`t agree with you, and some will like you even if they don`t agree with you.  Tip O`Neill said you got to ask for votes.

MATTHEWS:  I -- I`ve written that (INAUDIBLE)


MATTHEWS:  Amie, here`s a question.


MATTHEWS:  How many times did I pound on this desk and say to Hillary Clinton, Pick Sherrod Brown as your running mate.  He`s Rust Belt.  He`s a gravelly-voiced guy that talks and looks a bit like that voter you`re trying to get in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio.  Pick him.  Don`t pick the guy down from Virginia who`s got nothing to say to these people!

PARNES:  I know.  And she likes Sherrod.

MATTHEWS:  I said, Pick Sherrod Brown!

PARNES:  They were old neighbors...

MATTHEWS:  Why didn`t -- I know why she didn`t -- why didn`t she make the decision?  Give up that one Senate seat and take the country!  These are big decisions!  You have to make them!

PARNES:  Yes, and you know, it`s interesting.  She wasn`t very excited by her list of candidates, from what we report in the book.  She wanted -- she kind of...

MATTHEWS:  What stopped her, really, from picking the guy that would have won the election for her?

ALLEN:  Fear, caution.

PARNES:  I think so.  Yes, caution.  And the Senate.  There was...

MATTHEWS:  Jack Kennedy picked Lyndon Johnson!

ALLEN:  To win.

MATTHEWS:  He just wanted to win.

ALLEN:  (INAUDIBLE) and then figure out what you do.


PARNES:  Back then, they really thought they could win the Senate.  There was this whole debate about plucking him and...

MATTHEWS:  Yes, well, it`s great, great stuff.  I think it`s candy, this stuff.  I mean, I love this stuff.  "Shattered."  People buy these books.  Not only that, they`re going to read them all the way through!


ALLEN:  We hope so.

MATTHEWS:  This isn`t (INAUDIBLE) David McCullough (ph), you know, next to somebody else.  This is a book to pick up and read.  Anyway, the book is called "Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton`s Doomed Campaign."  Thank you Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes.

Coming up now, this weekend`s election in France is shaping up to be another fight between nationalism and globalism, far right versus somewhere in the center.  And now two American presidents, Trump and Obama, are jumping in, getting involved in this fight.  Anyway, the anti-immigration nationalist is getting Trump behind him, and we can see the most eruptive election in years over there, very much like we just had here.

Plus, freedom of speech on campus.  U.C. Berkeley, a public university, cancels a speech by Ann Coulter.  They`ve since rescheduled.  But the college Republican group that invited Coulter is threatening to sue the college.

And the Academy Award-nominated actor Christian Bales come (ph) here with us tonight.  He plays a journalist in the new movie "The Promise," which bears witness to the Armenian genocide.  That`s a story that needs to be told.

Finally, let me finish tonight with "Trump Watch" for this Friday night.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS:  Attorney General Jeff Sessions is being slammed for dismissing the state of Hawaii.  Sessions was criticizing a federal district court ruling blocking the Trump administration`s Muslim travel ban when he said this.


JEFF SESSIONS, ATTORNEY GENERAL:  I really am amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the president of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and constitutional power.


MATTHEWS:  Well, an island in the Pacific.  Hawaii senators were quick to respond.  Democrat Brian Schatz tweeted, "Mr. Attorney General, you voted for that judge, and that island is called Oahu.  It`s my home.  Have some respect."

And today Sessions was asked about his comments in an interview on MSNBC.


SESSIONS:  I wasn`t diminishing the judge or the island of Hawaii, that beautiful place.  Give me a break!  I was just making the point that`s very real.  One judge out of 700 has stopped the president of the United States from doing what he believes is necessary to protect our safety and security.


MATTHEWS:  And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.  President Trump tweeted earlier this morning about Sunday`s French election -- that`s this Sunday -- after yesterday`s attack in Paris, which ISIS claimed credit for.

President Trump had this to say.  "Another terrorist attack in Paris.  The people of France will not take much more of this.  Will have a big effect on presidential election."  Well, he elaborated during an interview with the Associated Press, saying the attack will help the far-right anti- immigrant candidate Marine Le Pen.

According to the Associated Press, the president says he wasn`t endorsing Le Pen, but he said she`s the strongest on borders and she`s the strongest on what`s been going on in France.  "Whoever is the toughest on radical Islamic terrorism, whoever is the toughest at the borders will do well in the election."  That`s Trump talking.

So why is the president inserting himself into France`s presidential campaign?

Jonathan Capehart`s an opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and Jean -- Jean-Bernard Cadier is a correspondent for French news channel BFMTV.

Jean-Bernard, I want you first because you are French.



MATTHEWS:  Is this a parallel election to our own from last year?  Is this a battle between the far right candidate, Marine Le Pen, who opposes a lot of this immigration over there, basically blames it on the Muslim community, the terrorism, and against a more moderate candidate against her?

CADIER:  It`s certainly could be for the second round, for the runoff two weeks from now depending on what happens on Sunday.  It`s the same wave that pushed President Trump here, that pushed Brexit in Britain, that is pushing Marine Le Pen, that`s for sure, anti-immigrant, anti-globalization, nationalism.  That`s for sure.  And the attack...

MATTHEWS:  Is it strong enough to win?  Trump won.  At least, he won in our Electoral College.

CADIER:  It could be strong enough to win, especially because they had an attack -- we had an attack two days before the first run (ph).  This definitely could help Marine Le Pen being elected.  Why?  Because it could push her because she`s the strongest on borders, she`s the most anti- Muslim.

It could help Francois Fillon.  And Francois Fillon is a conservative guy.  He`s not that bad.  He`s like Sarkozy.

But they could be together for the second round.  And, in this case, according to all the polls, he is the weakest against Marine Le Pen.  So, this attack could in two weeks from now help her. 

MATTHEWS:  So right against far right, right -- far right wins? 

CADIER:  Far right could win, or right.  Or, according to the polls before the attack, center, the surprise, this young guy, Emmanuel Macron, who is totally untested in terms of attacks.  And he could be the victim of those attacks.


What do you think of this?  What do you think about Trump getting involved?  I think -- I`m going to say at the end of this show, I have always respected the French, because when the British are with you, you say, ho- hum, they`re always with us.

But when the French are with us, then you know you`re right. 


MATTHEWS:  It`s just true.  It`s just true, because, in the first Gulf War, they were with us all the way.  They were with us when we had missiles on Cuba.  De Gaulle was with us.  He said, of course I`m with you.

It always seems to me a check.  Now, they`re not easy to deal with all the time, but when they agree with you, you`re right.  That`s my thinking. 


MATTHEWS:  I have got a French guy here. 

Go ahead.


Look, I think it`s always dicey when an American president inserts himself into another country`s election, another country`s referendum, as we saw with President Obama when he inserted himself into the Brexit conversation just before the vote.

MATTHEWS:  It didn`t help. 

CAPEHART:  Well, no, it didn`t help, but also he was criticized for that, although he was criticized for everything that he did on the international stage. 

But, with President Trump, with his tweets, like, he can do the wink and nod if he wants to about, oh, I didn`t endorse Marine Le Pen.  But he said, as you read, she is the strongest on borders.  She`s the strongest on immigration. 

MATTHEWS:  He endorsed her. 


MATTHEWS:  Anyway, Donald Trump is not the only American president, along the lines with Jonathan, to comment on the upcoming French election, because former President Obama talked on the phone to centrist candidate Emmanuel Macron yesterday. 

The president`s spokesman said the call wasn`t an endorsement -- quote -- "President Obama appreciated the opportunity to hear from Macron about his campaign and the important upcoming presidential election in France, a country that President Obama remains deeply committed to as a close ally of the United States, and as a leader on behalf of liberal values in Europe and around the world."

So we know what that means.  Barack Obama, by our politics, is somewhat center-left.  He`s not hard-left, by any means.  He`s center-left, and he`s endorsing a candidate who you say is centrist. 

CADIER:  And Obama, still, he`s extremely popular in France, probably over 120, his approval rating. 



CADIER:  He`s still very popular.  This could have a big impact on all of these undecided people who didn`t know exactly where to go. 

And there are a lot of undecided.  That`s why we`re so uncertain about this election. 

MATTHEWS:  You have had some great presidents, de Gaulle. 

CADIER:  Yes. 

MATTHEWS:  De Gaulle and Mitterrand, I think.  Mitterrand was great from our point of view.  He was very much with us in the Cold War. 

Thank you.  Socialists don`t like communists.  We should teach people that every night.  They don`t like socialists. 

Anyway, Jonathan Capehart and Jean-Bernard Cadier. 

And up next: a red-hot fight over free speech out at Berkeley.  The University of California is reversing its decision now to cancel a speech by Ann Coulter, but Coulter and the College Republicans are fighting back.  And that`s ahead here. 

This is HARDBALL, where the action is. 



Gridlock in San Francisco after a power outage left 90,000 people without electricity.  A circuit-breaker failed and caused a fire. 

Another outage in New York caused subway delays today.  The nation`s civil engineers have given the U.S. power grid a grade of D-plus. 

Dramatic new video from Paris, as a gunman is taken down after killing a police officer yesterday.  The attacker spent 11 years in prison for another attempt to kill a police officer -- back to HARDBALL. 

MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

In the 1960s, the University of California at Berkeley birthed, you might say, the free speech movement when the school lifted a ban on on-campus activities. 

Well, today, it`s home to a modern-day battle over free speech.  The most recent dramatic chapter is swirling now about whether or not Ann Coulter will deliver a previously scheduled speech on immigration set for April 27 to the Berkeley College Republicans. 

Well, the university out there initially canceled Coulter`s speech, citing -- quote -- "grave concern of violence on campus."  But the college chancellor proposed an alternative date.  Coulter responded to that proposal last night on "Hannity."


ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, "IN TRUMP WE TRUST":  You cannot impose arbitrary and harassing restrictions on the exercise of a constitutional right.  I don`t happen to be available on May 2.  This is a form -- I mean, it is anarchy, when you are only enforcing the law in order to allow liberals to speak. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, Coulter is vowing to speak on Berkeley, whether the school approves it or not. 

This comes in the wake of violent protests that led the college to cancel a scheduled speech by former Breitbart News editor Milo Yiannopoulos in February.

For more on this, I`m joined by the HARDBALL Roundtable tonight, Margaret Carlson, columnist for The Daily Beast, Ryan Streeter, director of domestic policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, and Michael Tomasky, columnist at The Daily Beast as well.  All are on set.

OK, let`s go, Margaret, because -- because this makes the university look out of touch with a debate that was going to follow their decision, as if they didn`t know canceling a person who is within not the mainstream, but definitely we`re used to hearing her.  And people do buy her books, and she does talk a lot and write a lot, and it`s part of the conversation. 

And they say, not here.  It`s not going to be part of the conversation here. 

MARGARET CARLSON, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST:  And unlike Trump rallies, we haven`t seen violence at an Ann Coulter speech. 


CARLSON:  And, you know, Berkeley is the home of the protest, and certainly they know how to handle this.  This is what happens at Berkeley.

MATTHEWS:  So, what is going on with violence, anarchist thing, this anti- fascist thing on the left, followed by this right-wing thing?  Do you know what`s going on with these groups, because they`re different?  They don`t go to school all day and go out and watch a speech at night. 



MATTHEWS:  They`re schooled in this kind of action.  They`re up for it. 

STREETER:  It`s changed a lot in the last five years, and it`s definitely gotten crazy now. 

I think that you have got a kind of crisis on the campuses.  If this were just Berkeley, I would say we have a unique kind of phenomenon, but this is happening in multiple places. 

I actually that you`re seeing the rise of...

MATTHEWS:  Who are these groups? 

STREETER:  I don`t think we know exactly who these groups are. 

MATTHEWS:  The violent groups.

STREETER:  But what I think we`re finding out is that some of these administrators, the campus -- our universities have really grown their budgets that adding people that are not faculty members, but are actually people who help organize some of this or at least encourage it. 

And I think I will have some data for you on this actually in a couple of months.


MATTHEWS:  OK.  I`m amazed, Michael, that there`s money in this.  She`s getting paid.  This isn`t just the local Republican club has asked you to come out as a kindness, the kind of stuff we had growing up with Democrat and Republican clubs.  You didn`t get paid. 

She`s getting a bundle for this. 



TOMASKY:  Yes, you get paid a lot now. 

But, look, I think that, you know, this generation, the younger generation, this actually goes back on campuses, on elite campuses anyway, interestingly, elite campuses, not really like land grant campuses.  But this goes back a number of years.  And...

MATTHEWS:  What, the idea that you can shut down somebody?

TOMASKY:  Yes.  Yes.  It does.  It`s been happening for a while. 

And Jeane Kirkpatrick got blood flung on her, I think.  I can`t remember when that was, maybe in the `90s or something like that.  They don`t value free speech that much.  They consider free speech to be kind of a bourgeois value.


TOMASKY:  And they`re more interested in...

MATTHEWS:  Who are these people who think that? 

TOMASKY:  Well, I don`t know, just kids, college kids on the left. 


MATTHEWS:  What about the people who our age, or my age certainly, who run these colleges, who get paid because they`re considered to be grownups and make judicious decisions based upon the principles the university is founded on, which is free thinking, argument, debate, left and right?

That`s how we do things here.  That`s why we come here, to hear radical ideas exposed to us, because we`re not getting them at home.  That`s why we come to college. 

CARLSON:  Right. 

And, by the way, Ann Coulter is no Milo Yiannopoulos. 


CARLSON:  She`s more mainstream than that. 


CARLSON:  But college students, these kids today feel like they`re flowers who will wilt under -- yes.


MATTHEWS:  OK, make your point, because it`s something called, I have to be safe from hate speech. 

CARLSON:  Yes, from opinions I don`t agree with, and, yes, it`s hateful. 

MATTHEWS:  Protected from it.

Well, why don`t you just don`t go?  And, by the way, I would recommend the best way to blow away somebody like Ann Coulter is, don`t say a word about it. 

TOMASKY:  Right. 

MATTHEWS:  Don`t even show up.  Don`t even comment on it.  Let her bore herself to death. 

Anyway, the Roundtable is sticking with us.  They`re going to come back, as Trump gets nervous about his first 100 days in office.  We`re going to go after Trump when we come back. 

You`re watching HARDBALL, where the action is. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, it`s arrived.  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 

Next Saturday will be the 100th day of President Trump`s administration.  And all of next week, in fact, we at HARDBALL will be profiling the biggest challenges the president has faced in the past three months, from Russia to health care. 

Today, the president, in an early morning tweet, tried to tamp down expectations by tweeting -- catch this -- "No matter how much I accomplish during the ridiculous standard of the first 100 days, and it has been a lot, including Supreme Court, media will kill."

It`s a shift from his campaign rhetoric, of course, when he frequently touted his first 100 days and how much he would accomplish. 


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Just think about what we can accomplish in the first 100 days of a Trump administration. 


TRUMP:  We`re going to have the biggest tax cut since Ronald Reagan, even bigger. 

You`re going to have such great health care at a tiny fraction of the cost, and it`s going to be so easy. 

So, we`re going to build a wall.  It will be a great wall.  Mexico`s going to pay for the wall. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, in a speech back in October of 2016, not a million years ago, then candidate Trump rolled out a 100-day action plan to make America great again. 

Here`s what he pledged. 


TRUMP:  On November 8, Americans will be voting for this 100-day plan to restore prosperity to our country, secure our communities, and honesty to our government.  This is my pledge to you. 


MATTHEWS:  We`re back with the HARDBALL Roundtable. 

Remember those Catechism books we had about Jesus putting his hands up?  He does it just like he`s God.  Where did he learn that? 

I`m afraid he did learn in those Catechism books.

CARLSON:  It`s all Sermon on the Mount.

MATTHEWS:  Yes, it`s unbelievable.

Anyway, Margaret Carlson is Daily Beast.  Ryan Streeter is with the AEI, American Enterprise Institute.  And Michael Tomasky is also with Daily.

We got a lot of Beasties here. 

Let me ask you just right off the top.  You got a couple minutes.  Give him a report card and give me it anecdotally.  What do you think of Trump`s first 100 days so far?  We`re almost there.

CARLSON:  An ungentlemanly sea.  How is that? 

MATTHEWS:  Well...

CARLSON:  And you notice how he says everything is so easy, like a 6-year- old who adds two and two?  Oh, that`s so easy. 

Then he comes in and he says, gosh, it`s complicated, this health care business. 


CARLSON:  Everything is a little more complicated than he thought, and he can`t keep anything straight. 

And his Cabinet doesn`t agree with him much of the time.  And he thinks an armada is going to North Korea, when it`s going in the opposite direction.  And it`s really quite a lack of accomplishment.  He moved it today, the goalpost, to 90 days.  Did you hear that?  And, in 90 days, which is now his measurement, he`s accomplished more than any other president ever. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, 90 days.

I guess if you spend your entire adult life studying zoning variances and deeds, I mean, he`s had a very narrow education, I can tell you.  You can tell.  He makes no historic references, not even movie references.  He makes no references except to himself.  That`s his reference point.  You don`t learn much that way. 

Your thoughts.  Give me your broad thoughts.

STREETER:  I would say he was for the 100-day measure before he was against it, before he realized it got complicated.

MATTHEWS:  You mean the ridiculous -- the ridiculous thing, he calls it today, ridiculous standard.

STREETER:  The ridiculous -- the ridiculous thing.

I would go with a C by his own standards.  They put out their 100-day plan.  They got a lot of the executive order work.  If you actually go look at what they`d said they`d do in the first 100 days, through executive door, through using the Congressional Review Act, they managed to pull back some of these regulations.

But they have about 10 pieces of legislation in there as well.  And so I think really the problem for them going forward is not just the past 100 days, but it`s the actual policy objectives that they have agreement on within the administration about what success looks like on jobs, on tax reform, on health care. 

And that`s where I think their biggest trouble is right now, is not just whether or not they have been organized the first 100 days, but, going forward, are they going to actually...

MATTHEWS:  How about an F?  How about an F? 


MATTHEWS:  No, really.  I would suggest, before you get there, no health care, no tax reform, nada on legislation, nothing.  The only way they got Gorsuch through is breaking the rules, so nothing.  That would be a report. 

Your thoughts? 

TOMASKY:  Nothing.  OK. 

I will go D, because where...

MATTHEWS:  What do you give him a D for? 

TOMASKY:  Well, because we`re not in a depression, and we`re not at war yet. 

MATTHEWS:  Oh, OK.  I`m talking about legislation, which is the way we have always judged 100 days.

TOMASKY:  Legislation, complete F.  Legislation, complete F. 

MATTHEWS:  That`s the way we always judge the president.

TOMASKY:  That health care thing -- that health care thing was a complete disaster.  It was a total -- it was a bigger disaster for Paul Ryan than for Trump, but it was a disaster for Trump too. 

And let`s not forget this central fact.  The president of the United States and his campaign are under investigation by the FBI.  That`s a pretty big boulder that you can`t move out of the room. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, late this week, and -- late this week, NBC learned that House Republicans were in talks to resurrect a bill that would repeal the Affordable Care Act. 

According to Politico -- quote -- "A frantic and impatient White House is pressuring House GOP leaders for another showdown vote on repealing Obamacare next week" -- that`s next week -- "so it can notch a legislative win before President Trump`s first 100 days in office."

Well, today, President Trump was asked about it.  And here`s what he said. 


TRUMP:  We will see what happens.  No particular rush, but we will see what happens. 

But health care is coming along well.  Government is coming along really well.  A lot of good things are happening. 

Thank you, folks. 


QUESTION: You`re going to get a health care bill next week?


QUESTION:  ... next 100 days?

TRUMP:  I don`t know.  It doesn`t matter if it`s next week.  Next week doesn`t matter. 


MATTHEWS:  That was sort of Reaganesque.  Remember this thing at the ear?  I barely hear you through the helicopter blades.  I mean, what kind of interview -- you can talk to him as a walks at a 45 degree angle away from you.  Somebody got that press opportunity. 

What did he just say there? 

MARGARET CARLSON, THE DAILY BEAST:  Nothing, you know.  The next week is going to be great, but it doesn`t really matter anyway.  He`s now actually adopting the 100-day thing because he wants to get that health care thing through. 

MATTHEWS:  He`s fickle. 

Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us.  Up next, these three will tell me something I don`t know. 

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS:  We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable. 

Margaret, tell me something I don`t know.  When did I first meet you?  1980. 


MATTHEWS:  You cooked a meal for our --

CARLSON:  Rehearsal --

MATTHEWS:  Rehearsal dinner.  That`s how long I`ve known her. 

CARLSON:  More than 30 years ago. 

So I just learned this, that Lisa Bloom, who represented O`Reilly`s accusers, is the daughter of Gloria Allred, who represents one of the accusers whose case is coming up May 17th in which Donald Trump is saying he has immunity.  But she says Jones v. Clinton, no immunity.  It`s only for your public acts, not your personal ones.  That case is going forward. 

MATTHEWS:  Is Trump`s going to have to answer for it? 


MATTHEWS:  Go ahead. 

RYAN STREETER, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE:  You know there`s a skills gap.  There`s about 5.5 million jobs every month that don`t go filled.  We know jobs are sort of outpacing where people are trained. 

What you don`t know is that states -- innovative states are going to fix this problem before we figure it out in Washington, D.C.  There`s new data analytics that states like Texas, Colorado, in a very bipartisan way, are using that are allowing employers to find people, allowing students to understand what the price premium for certain skills will be.  And I think we`re going to see more matching over the next ten years. 

MATTHEWS:  So, people are going to take courses to allow them to get a job. 


MATTHEWS:  It makes sense. 

MICHAEL TOMASKY, THE DAILY BEAST:  Government shutdown.  Government shutdown.  Look out.

It`s probably not going to be next week.  They`re going to pass a one-week thing to put it off for one week.  The Trump administration pushing hard for the money for the wall and the money for their deportation force and the Democrats aren`t going to have it.  A lot of Republicans are nervous about it too.  People I talk to today think the odds of a shutdown just went up a little bit.

MATTHEWS:  Well, they got to get all Republicans because no Democrats voting for that wall. 

Anyway, Margaret -- no Mexican is either. 

Margaret Carlson, Ryan Streeter and Michael Tomasky.

When we come back, the Academy Award nominated actor Christian Bale on his new film, "The Promise", about something you haven`t heard much about but should, the Armenian genocide in the last century.

And we`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I`m not safe.  No one here is safe.  Don`t you see what`s happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I`ve lived through these Turkish threats before. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Threats?  They want us dead.  I have to get us out of here before there`s no time left.  Trust me.


MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was a clip from the upcoming film, "The Promise," starring Oscar Isaac as an Armenian medical student whose life is upturned by World War I.

And Christian Bale, who plays an Associated Press journalist reporting on the Armenian genocide.

Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Mr. Myers, I am Farouk Bashar (ph), commander of this region.  What is the "Associated Press" doing here, Mr. Myers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Reporting on the -- on the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   There is no war here, merely the evacuation of the civilian population to a safer region. 

A Turkish official, a man of unshakable humanity and courage, informed us that Farouk Bashar (ph), a general notorious for barbarism, has been instructed by the highest authorities to spare no village.

Are these words your fabrications or the words of some lying Turkish traitor?  Prove to me that you did not fabricate these words.

Give me the name of the high ranking Turkish official.  I will confirm he gave you this information and release you.



MATTHEWS:  Well, the movie will be in the theaters on Friday this week and draws attention to the mass killing and deportation of over a million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

Turkey, by the way, denies the genocide.

Joining me right now is Christian Bale, who starred in movies like "The Dark Knight Rises," "The Fighter" -- I loved that movie -- and "American Hustle," a great movie.


MATTHEWS:  Oscar Isaac is known for his role in "Star Wars: The Force Awakens," and my friend John Prendergast is the co-founder of The Enough Project, which seeks to end genocide.

Mr. Bale, thank you for joining us.

I want to ask you, what attracted you to a movie about something that so few Americans are even aware of?

BALE:  Just that fact, actually.  I was really embarrassed to me that I wasn`t aware of it, either.  I mean, one and a half million people slaughtered and I was learning about it like many Americans and people around the world probably were when it was approaching the 100th anniversary.

And as I was reading the script, I was watching on the news the Yazidis, who have been surrounded and slaughtered on the mountain -- 


BALE:  -- by ISIS and I`m reading the script about Armenians stuck on the mountain of Musa Dagh being slaughtered, as well, and thinking how tragically relevant this still is today.

MATTHEWS:  Let me go to John, my friend.

What`s the story here, because tell me about the Armenian holocaust.  I know it was a big issue in Congress when I worked there.  The lobbyists worked like hell for the Turkish government, to keep this quiet.

Why did they want to keep it quiet?

JOHN PRENDERGAST, THE ENOUGH PROJECT:  Well, I think that it`s the biggest stain on Turkey`s conscience in Turkey`s history.  And at the beginning of World War I, the Turkish -- the Ottoman Empire, at the time, felt that the Armenian population was siding with the Russians and decided as a measure to destroy the fifth column, let`s just exterminate the Armenian population.

And through massacres of the men, through mass rape of the women and through these death marches into the Syrian deserts, they accomplished their goal for the most part.

MATTHEWS:  But why is it so quiet, that Christian and people like me, I know it from politics, but people -- you don`t hear people, they talk about the Holocaust in World War II.  You don`t hear much about the World War I holocaust.

PRENDERGAST:  The word genocide hadn`t even existed.  It wasn`t even created when this happened and began in 1915 in Turkey -- in the modern-day Turkey.  And so we didn`t have a word for it.


PRENDERGAST:  There wasn`t any concept that focused on the idea that a population could be annihilated, could be exterminated on the basis of their identity, in this case, their religion.

MATTHEWS:  Let me go to Oscar about the importance of the story to you, sir.

OSCAR ISAAC, ACTOR:  Well, likewise.  I didn`t know anything about it when I first got the script.  And as I read it and was horrified and educated about it and learned about it, I just felt like it was an incredibly important thing to do. 

And then to now, you know, the releasing the movie and to know that 100 percent of the proceeds of the film go to charity, to humanitarian causes, to creating the UCLA Promise Institute, which, you know, is incredible.  So I think they`ve just got to get to $20 million -- to be a part of something like that is -- it`s incredible.

MATTHEWS:  Christian, let me ask you about today in journalism.  It`s a -- you know, Trump spends his hours -- I mean, his minutes, his tweets at dawn attacking the mainstream media.  I mean the real media, not opinion, opinion, but news people, trashing the major journalism in this country.

What do you think it says about the need for journalism in crisis moments like this holocaust you covered in the movie?

BALE:  There`s no more urgency for it, is there, than now?  That actually really became relevant during the filming and after, as well, when this -- post-truth era.  You know, this -- I think that hopefully, it will inspire incredible journalism because people will start to recognize how important it is to -- a free press is to a democracy.

And the fact that with the Armenian genocide, there was so little documentation, because they restricted access -- 


BALE:  -- by journalists.  They denied -- it was illegal to take photographs.  It was a German soldier, Armin Wegner, who got most of the photo documentation out there.

But despite the fact that there were many U.S. missionaries whose accounts all corroborate each other about the genocide, there were no real consequences afterwards.

And the tragic thing is that may well have provoked the numerous genocides that we`ve seen since then, you know, with Ukraine and with the holocaust and in Rwanda and then with, you know, the Yazidis, as I was talking about.

But to me, the real question is, well, what can be done?

And like Oscar was saying, this is a fantastically philanthropic move by the filmmakers and I`ve never come across this before, to give 100 percent of the proceeds to charity.

But now please over to John and he`s not a used car salesman like me, just kind of flogging a film.  He`s really out there making change in the world.


BALE:  What can be done by people watching?

MATTHEWS:  John, tell me about the holocausts in our recent history.  Where are they?  In Sudan?  Where are they talking about, where people are trying to wipe out another tribe or ethnic group?

PRENDERGAST:  Well, I think in Iraq, we have the Yazidis.  We have South Sudan now, which is the world`s next genocide, potentially.  And in Sudan, in Darfur and in Nuba Mountains.

And the issue is really what can be done, as Christian said?

And in a lot of cases, we`re not going to send in the 82nd Airborne.  But what we can do is take a chapter from the counterterrorism efforts.  There is an incredibly exhaustive effort to chase the assets of terrorist networks.  We could do the same thing with folks that are war criminals who are committing atrocities who are moving all of their finances into the international system.

They`re stealing the wealth of these countries.  In Armenia, it was the same thing.  They stole the wealth of the Armenians.  It wasn`t just a political move.  It was also a financial one -- massive asset transfer.

In all of these genocides, you see the same thing.  People steal the wealth of those that are victimized and they put it into the international financial system.  That`s a vulnerability of those people and we don`t go after it.  And I think that`s a -- that`s the next frontier.

MATTHEWS:  You know, Oscar, I`m familiar a little bit, like we all were, with "Hotel Rwanda," which pointed to the holocaust, the actual genocide that was going on in Rwanda.  And I was thinking, this is different than shooting at the other guy across a field or something, or from a trench to another trench.  You`re shooting at another people and trying to kill them because they are that other people, not because they`re warriors.

ISAAC:  Well, yes.  I mean and you hear -- it`s unfortunate that you hear a lot of similar kind of word usage nowadays.  You know, the thing that Turkey did, at the time, it said, now, it`s Turkey for the Turks.  And they decided that these ethnic minorities were the enemy, they were others.  They were not entitled to the same citizenship as the Turks at the time.

And you hear similar rhetoric nowadays.  So it is -- 

MATTHEWS:  You sure do.

ISAAC:  Yes, it is a strange thing to see happen again and again and again.

MATTHEWS:  Christian Bale, I have a question for you, because I`ve become something of a student of a guy you`re going to have to study to play, and that`s Dick Cheney -- Cheney.  That`s his family name.  He doesn`t care if we call him Cheney.

How are you getting ready for that?

He`s sort of an interesting guy.  He`s not one of my best heroes.  What do you make of him?

BALE:  Look at that, a spitting image, isn`t it, maybe?


BALE:  So, it`s no wonder -- 

MATTHEWS:  No, but you can do any accent.


MATTHEWS:  You can do Wyoming -- 


MATTHEWS:  You can do the Wyoming -- 


BALE:  No, actually, Chris, we`re not sure yet.  We`re trying to decide, do we make a film about Dick Cheney or Lon Chaney, the man with 1,000 faces?


MATTHEWS:  I think you could get Lon -- I think the original Lon Chaney, but not Lon Chaney, Jr.  Get the real bad guy.

Anyway, I don`t wish you well with that character, but it`s going to take - - it will be a lot of fun playing the villain.  It always is.

Thank you, sir.

BALE:  Thank you very much.

MATTHEWS:  The movie is called "The Promise."  It`s coming out Friday in area theaters.

Christian Bale, a great guy.

Oscar Isaac, I just mentioned, a great guy.

Thank you, John Prendergast.

BALE:  And Oscar now has become a dad.

MATTHEWS:  Congratulations.


MATTHEWS:  That`s another role that`s interesting.  That`s a real one.

When we return, let me finish tonight with Trump Watch.  You`re watching HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS:  Trump Watch, Friday, April 21st, 2017. 

All eyes are on France this weekend as the people of the fifth republic vote for president.  For obvious reasons, our president has engaged in this contest.  He`s taken sides with Marine Le Pen, the hard right candidate taking a tough line on immigration from North Africa. 

President Obama`s also gotten involved in the French voting, making nice comments about the centrist candidate Emmanuel Macron. 

I would think it better for us Americans to stay out.  The French and us are great, vibrant democracies.  I love the country.  I also think it`s up to them who to elect their president. 

And while we may be interested in who wins, it`s not really our business to tell them how to vote.  And I will say this, whenever we Americans take a foreign policy action, we can pretty much count on the British being with us.  We have no reason to expect the same confidence when it comes to the French.  That said, it`s my experience that when they do, the French do agree with us, it`s a sign we`re right.  I trust them to make the right decision on whom to lead them. 

And that`s HARDBALL for now.  Thanks for being with us. 

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.