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Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript 11/11/2016

Guests: Hugh Hewitt, Ron Reagan, Yamiche Alcidor, Martin O`Malley, Ken Vogel, Jay Newton-Small, Annie Linskey, Shirish Date, Jean Kennedy Smith

Show: HARDBALL Date: November 11, 2016 Guest: Hugh Hewitt, Ron Reagan, Yamiche Alcidor, Martin O`Malley, Ken Vogel, Jay Newton-Small, Annie Linskey, Shirish Date, Jean Kennedy Smith

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HARDBALL HOST: Will the real Donald Trump please stand up?

Let`s play HARDBALL.

MATTHEWS: Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Well, there have been two big competing messages coming from the President- elect, Donald Trump. The first is a message of unity and reconciliation. The second message came in a late-night tweet, of course.

The next president criticized those thousands of protesters taking to the streets in opposition to his election, and the media, of course, which he accused of inciting those protests.

Trump wrote, "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters incited by the media are protesting. Very unfair!"

Well, a few hours later, Trump seemed to do a complete 180. He tweeted, "Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud."

Why is Trump still tweeting about his critics and suggesting the media is out to get him? Is he like the boxer who continues punching his opponent after the bell rings?

Well, the election is over, Mr. Trump and you won. And a sign of stability for many republicans, Vice President-elect Mike Pence was named by Trump the chair of the transition team. Other names on the team include three Trump children, Donald Jr., Eric, and Ivanka, as well as his son-in-law, as well as Jared Kushner.

Meanwhile, in an interview with "The Wall Street Journal," President-elect Trump offered a positive tone. "I want a country that loves each other. I want to stress that." That`s his words.

According to the journal, "Asked whether he thought his rhetoric had gone too far in the campaign," the president-elect responded, "No, I won."

Mr. Trump suggested that he would now turn more positive, saying that was true of his victory speech early Wednesday morning, as well as his comments with Mr. Obama at the White House, Thursday. It`s different now, he said.

Well, joining me right now is Hugh Hewitt, the host of "The Hugh Hewitt Show," on the Salem Radio Network, author and MSNBC political analyst, Ron Reagan, and New York Times reporter Yamiche Alcindor. Thank you all for joining us.

Well, these two competing messages, what I - what I saw is, and I agree with Trump on this point, I thought he speaks tonight after the night he won, brought the markets under control, which were 800 bad deposits of about 300 or 400. So, it stabilized the international markets, which is a responsible thing to do.

I thought his meeting with the president was fine and even respectful, talking about the president`s accomplishments in a positive way, never heard that before. Then I thought the tweeting was crazy, and I wonder, what`s running the mind of Donald Trump.

Mr. Hewitt, we`ve been through a lot of this together now. We are war veterans. We`ve been in the bunker. But let`s see if we can figure out, is Donald Trump a little loony? Has Donald Trump got a Mr. Hyde - a "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" thing going on, where he uses "Mr. Hyde" when he wants to -- which one`s the good guy, I forgot -- or the bad guy?

He uses both the good guy and the bad guy, usually the bad guy. Which one is he?

HUGH HEWITT, SALEM RADIO NETWORK HOST: Well, I think he`s the good guy. We`ve had the best 72 hours --

MATTHEWS: Jekyll`s the good guy, Hyde`s the bad guy.

HEWITT: Yeah, the good guy - the good guy is Hyde. We`ve had the best 72 hours that the republicans and conservatives had since the financial panic in the fall of 2008.

And the putting of vice President-elect Pence in charge of the transition, more good news. The meetings yesterday with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, great news. The fact that the Supreme Court is saved, terrific news.

And I think Donald Trump is going to find being president as much fun as did Ron`s father. And hopefully, as gracious as he was in the Oval Office and as winsome towards his critics as his father was.

I haven`t been feeling this good in years, Chris. Because I think the opportunity to undo some of the damage of the last eight years, legislatively, is in front of us. To rebuild the military, which is an urgent need, and Donald Trump has promised and to put, you know, originalists on the court. There`s not just one Supreme Court vacancy. There are 99 other federal judges and Harry Reid broke the filibuster, so it`s all majority rule.

MATTHEWS: OK. Except for the filibuster rule still applies to Supreme Court justices. So, the democrats -

HEWITT: Nope, nope.

MATTHEWS: -- can still filibuster at the Supreme Court level.


MATTHEWS: You can say that if you want to, but it`s not true.

HEWITT: That`s not true, given the way that we broke it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, that`s an argument, not a fact.

Let me go to Ron Reagan here. Ron, what`s your reaction to the two Trumps or do you just see one? Tell how you look at it. Take some time.

RON REAGAN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, this is -- the two tweets that you mentioned, the first of which was almost certainly written by Donald Trump, the second of which may or may not have been, are exemplary of the drama that is about to play out both in public, because of course, Donald Trump is the President of the United States, but also just as importantly within Donald Trump himself.

The question we`re going to have answered here shortly is whether Donald Trump will remain the sort of puerile figure that he was during the campaign, thin-skinned, unable to contain himself, incoherent frequently, or whether Donald Trump can become the kind of man he needs to be to be the President of United States.

Now, Hugh used to work for my father in his administration. And he`s aware of my father. He`s familiar with my father. He doesn`t know him as well as I do, of course.

But since he brought my father up, I have to say, as a point of personal privilege, perhaps, that I find myself in a state of cognitive dissonance here when I watch Donald Trump about to take the Oval Office.

I remember sitting in the oval office with my father. Though we disagreed about politics frequently, I was always impressed by his enormous dignity.

Yes, he had fun, sometimes, being President of the United States. But he saw it as a gigantic responsibility, one that required preparation, deep thought, long thought about issues and Hugh will back me up that Ronald Reagan, despite his critics saying that he was shallow and all of that, had all of those other - those other qualities. He thought long and hard about issues here.

So now, I think about Donald Trump sitting in that chair. And I think about the dignity that my father had. And I -- the only way I can think of to explain this to you in this cognitive dissonance that I feel right now is asking you, all of you, if you can imagine in your wildest dreams ever hearing an audiotape of my father bragging about his fame and how his all it allows him to molest women at will.

I think we all know the answer to that. The presidency demands enormous dignity. And we are shortly going to find out whether it has the power to compel dignity.

MATTHEWS: Do you want to respond to that, Hugh?

HEWITT: Yes, I think Ron is very right. His father was one of the most thoughtful and underrated thinkers of our past century. And I hope, for example, Donald Trump studies his presidency and says, how did Ronald Reagan start?

He started with Jim Baker, Ed Niche and Mike Dever. So rather than trying to arrange the White House into one person, if you put Reince Priebus as Chief of Staff and Steve Bannon as (INAUDIBLE) and Kellyanne Conway, you`ll get at least shadow of what Ronald Reagan did.

A lot of inputs so that he could retreat to the Oval Office and think everything that Ron said. And obviously, he knows his father better than anyone else in Washington D.C. is absolutely true.

MATTEHWS: Yes, I think from the outside, I knew that about your father, about President Reagan. He would -- well, he had tremendous -- we have to do this in another night.

He had tremendous understanding of the constitution. He understood the role of the opposition. He understood the role of the other people elected by the people. And he put it all together. That was his salute to the constitution, recognizing how it all worked together.

Anyway, one of the most consistent themes of Donald Trump`s campaign was to call to repeal and replace Obamacare. Let`s watch this one.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: My poll numbers are going through the roof. You know why? I really believe a big part of it is Obamacare, because we`re going to repeal it and replace it.

Obamacare has to be replaced. And we will do it and we will do it very, very quickly. It is a catastrophe.

If we don`t repeal and replace Obamacare, we will destroy American health care forever.


MATTHEWS: But now, President-elect Trump seems to be softening that hard line, somewhat. Here`s what he told "60 MINUTES" today for a broadcast on Sunday night. Let`s watch.


LESLEY STALL, CBS HOST: When you replace it, are you going to make sure that people with pre-conditions are still covered?

TRUMP: Yes, because it happens to be one of the strongest assets.

STAHL: You`re going to keep that?

TRUMP: Also, with the children living with their parents for an extended period, we`re going to -

STAHL: You`re going to keep that?

TRUMP: -- very much try and keep that in. It adds cost, but it`s very much something we`re going to try and keep.


MATTHEWS: Well, that`s something. He`s taken the two most popular features of Obamacare and saying he`s somehow going to finance those without having a larger pool of people being insured by Obamacare. That`s the hardest thing in the world to square that circle.

Anyway, according to The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Trump, said, "A big reason for his shift from his call for an all-out repeal was that Thursday meeting at the White House with the president, who he said, suggested areas of the Affordable Care Act to preserve."

Well, here`s Trump again, "I told him, I will look at his suggestions, and out of respect, I will do that," Mr. Trump said.

Either Obamacare will be amended or repealed and replaced. Yamiche, that`s news. "Amended" is a word of conciliation. But I`ll tell you there is the squaring of a circle problem. We went through this whole thing as they put together Obamacare.

Yes, the middle class would like to have their kids being covered before the kids have jobs and a way to pay for, even the responsibility to take upon themselves to insure themselves in their 20s, for example. Of course, people who have Diabetes II or something like that, they have something which is a pre-existing condition would very much like to be insured.

But if you only insure people who have serious health conditions and have extra kids as dependent, it`s going to run out of money quickly. So you can`t have one without the other. So I don`t know where Trump`s headed with this. Is he headed towards an acceptance of the large part of Obamacare?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, NEW YORK TIMES NATIONAL REPORTER: It`s really unclear what he`s going to accept in Obamacare.

I`ve talked to so many people, so many supporters over the last year who really, that was their driving force, was the fact that he was going to replace this with something completely new. So, I think a lot of his supporters are now kind of wondering, well, what`s that -- what`s he going to replace it with?

And I think that he has a mandate, really, from his supporters, to repeal Obamacare. He made that a very big part of his campaign. I think it`s going to be really interesting if he then just starts to amend it and whether or not that`s going to lead to a sort of revolt of the people who put him into office.

MATTHEWS: Well, the problem would be if he repealed it, all the people covered by it now are out of insurance.

Ron, I want to go back to you on this. This is a problem and you can`t - I mean, he wants to fix that. It takes a few months to figure out how to fix it. If you have a more conservative version of it, fine.

But you can`t just drop everybody from their insurance. They`re going to die. I mean, you can`t just do -- that`s probably a strong statement. But they`re going to lose insurance, let`s put it that way.

REAGAN: Well, yes, and this has been a problem forever with the republicans and Obamacare. First of all, Obamacare is Romney care and Romney care is a publican plan. This is the republican alternative to universal single-payer health care. So, yes, there are these features of Obamacare that everybody loves.

Nobody likes the fact that if they`re sick, they can`t get health insurance. So, you`re going to tell the insurance companies that, I`m sorry, if somebody comes to you and wants to buy a policy, you have to allow them to buy a policy, and you can`t charge them more for that policy, just because they have an illness.

But that will not work, period, unless you mandate that everybody buys insurance. I mean, that`s just a fact.

MATTHEWS: Ron, I like the gray part of your hair up front. You`re getting to be a very mature gentleman hair up there.


REAGAN: I`m following Hugh.

MATTHEWS: Hugh looks great.

Hugh, let me ask you this about -- I was impressed today that the guy from Jersey got jumped again, third loss of the year, didn`t get elected president, didn`t get elected vice president, and now getting dumped in the transition pause.

This was a hell of a decision. Who made that? Kushner? Who in the Trump organization said, no more Jersey governor. This guy`s got too much - too much baggage. We`re going to bring in Mike Pence and make him head of transition. Who did that?

HEWITT: Well, President-elect Trump yesterday spent part of his day with the Speaker of the House, constitutional officer Paul Ryan, and with the Senate Majority Leader, Mitch McConnell, who`s very effective, and I wouldn`t be surprised if they both whispered to him, we like to work with Mike Pence a lot.

We get along very well with him. If we want to get off to a fast start, why don`t you kind of ask him how to staff up? Because a lot of the names on this list that are floating around are establishment names.

That means people who have good conservative reformist ideas, but also now, as you do, Chris, and as everybody knows, Washington is a unique place to do business in. Better to have someone who`s been there for a long time, like Mike Pence, and Chris Christie hasn`t been dumped. He`s been made vice chair. He`s still around. It`s a big circle, but Mike Pence is going to be the big player here, as Joe Biden was for President Obama.

MATTHEWS: Well, it was a good bet that Mike Pence made on this guy. He bet on the horse and the horse won. Ron, I love the way you think about this. Thank you, it`s great to have your perspective and friendship. Thank you so much.

Yamiche, more time to you next time. I got these two other guys. They sort of got all the ideas tonight from me. Anyway, you`re the best.

I love The New York Times now. I hope it`s getting over its efforts to prevent us from having Trump, because they didn`t work.

Anyway, coming up, the path forward for democrats, what`s the best strategy for progressives as we enter the Trump era? Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders say they`re going to try to work with him on improving the economy, especially for working people. But, they`re also drawing their battle lines for the fights ahead.

So, it`s interesting to watch the sophistication of what you might call the left in this country, although the left isn`t very left here.

Plus, as Trump begins to build his administration, we`re learning more about the political factions vying for Trump`s power. The ones within the group there, and there are reports that some of his loyalists are looking for political payback against republicans, establishment republicans. The HARDBALL roundtable is here for that one.

And after what has been for many a very difficult week, don`t you think? I want to share with you my interview with Jean Kennedy-Smith, sister of President John F. Kennedy and Senators Robert and Ted Kennedy in this exclusive conversation at the end of the show tonight.

We`re going to -- she`s going to tell us what it was like to grow up with an incredible Kennedy family, and also, about our very personal new book, "The Nine of Us."

Finally, let me finish with a huge question about where president-elect Trump has taken himself. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: In that "60 MINUTES" interview that`s going to air Sunday, Donald Trump described the phone call he got early Wednesday morning from Secretary Clinton.


STAHL: Hillary called you. Tell us about that phone call.

TRUMP: So, Hillary called and it was a lovely call. And it was a tough call for her. I mean, I can imagine. Tougher for her than it would have been for me and for me, it would have been very, very difficult.

She couldn`t have been nicer. She just said, "Congratulations, Donald. Well done." And I said, "I want to thank you very much. You were a great competitor." She`s very strong and very smart.

STAHL: What about Bill Clinton? Did you talk you talk with him?

TRUMP: He did. He called the next day.

STAHL: Really? What did he say?

TRUMP: Actually called last night.

STAHL: What did he say?

TRUMP: And he couldn`t have been more gracious. He said it was an amazing run. One of the most amazing he`s ever seen.

STAHL: He said that?

TRUMP: He was very, very really very nice.


MATTHEWS: Leslie Stolt does a great job, doesn`t she? We`ll be right back after this.



ELIZABETH WARREN, UNITED STATES SENATOR OF MASSACHUSETTS: We will stand up to bigotry. No compromises ever on this one.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Elizabeth Warren, of course, the Senator from Massachusetts, last night with my colleague, Rachel Maddow, preparing to stand up to a Donald Trump presidency. Anyway, she was there and also at that place.

Senator Warren and her senate colleague, Bernie Sanders, now, two of the de facto leaders of the Democratic Party, you might say, said they will stand up to bigotry against minorities. Interesting, here it is.


WARREN: Bigotry in all its forms, we will fight back against attacks on Latinos, on African-Americans, on women, on Muslims, on immigrants, on disabled Americans, on everyone. Whether Donald Trump sits in a glass tower or sits in the White House, we will not give an inch on this. Not now, not ever.

BERNIE SANDERS, UNITED STATES SENATOR: This is America, and we are not going to throw out 11 million people in this country who are undocumented. We`re not going to turn against one of the largest religions in the world, people who are Muslim.

I do not want to see Muslim kids -- and we`re hearing about this, already, who feel intimidated in the country and frightened, living in the country where they grew up. That is not America. We do not want to continue the attacks against the women.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, anti-Trump protesters are now on the streets now again. This is the third straight night.

You`re looking, by the way, at a live picture at the demonstration or the protest down in Miami, where demonstrations are blocking a roadway down there.

But how do Democrats, in the age of Trump, counter his presidency? Is knee-jerk resistance the best or only answer at the moment? The party appears leaderless, the Democrats.

Amber Phillips of "The Washington Post" writes: "Democrats are a body without a head right now. Sanders and Warren are two of the Democrats` most high-profile figures left standing, and they know it. There`s never been a better moment for either of them to try to fill the political vacuum with their left-wing populist ideological message."

Well, anyway, the big first fight among Democrats could come over the race for party chairman of the DNC. Four names have already said they`re interested people in the job, U.S. Congressman Keith Ellison of Minnesota, who`s being backed by Sanders, and the likely Democratic leader of the Senate, Chuck Schumer, is all behind him -- former chairman and Vermont Governor Howard Dean, New Hampshire party chair Ray Buckley, and former Maryland Governor Martin O`Malley.

Governor O`Malley joins us now.

Governor O`Malley, are you in this race? Are you into this to get the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee?

MARTIN O`MALLEY (D), FORMER MARYLAND GOVERNOR: Yes, I`m certainly looked at it.

Chris, I have been approached by members of the DNC and encouraged to give it a very, very serious look. And that`s what I`m doing. Look, our party needs to rebuild. We did about -- we did worse with all of our traditional constituencies that made up the Democratic Party coalition. And the other side was far more energized.

We need to understand what the message is here. And I truly believe that when we arrive at that moment of understanding, which I believe is around economic message, that we will get to the point of rebuilding our party and building up a bench and having a 50-state strategy and speaking to the issues that concern people most.

And that is their sense that their national government no longer works for them, no longer understands their hard work and their suffering and that they`re not getting ahead. And that`s where we trailed off. I don`t know.

We have to take some time to figure out how much of this was messenger, how much of this was message, how much of this was a lack of organization at the grassroots. And that`s what we`re in the process of doing as a party.


Well, Hillary Clinton came out there and advocated for all the different elements of the Democratic coalition. She was for labor. She had the good labor support. She was for minorities. She had said all the right things for minorities. She expressed herself, I thought, clearly.

I`m trying to think of what group she didn`t speak well for. But putting all those elements together, people who are pro-Israel, pro-labor, pro- teacher, it seems to me, having watched it over the years, that never adds up to 51 percent. You need that second thing on top.

Bill Clinton had it with his charm and his talk to working people who work hard and play by the rules. He was also a bit conservative on some things.

O`MALLEY: Right.

MATTHEWS: What`s the missing ingredient that Hillary didn`t have, that kept her from going from 40-some percent to -- well, she ended up winning the popular vote. But winning the Electoral College, what stopped her? What lacked?

O`MALLEY: Well, look, at the end of the day, what people care about -- there`s some who even say that there`s one issue and one issue only. And that is, do you care about me? Are you on my side?

And when people feel like their own national politicians aren`t on their side, then voting becomes purely an act of protest. Donald Trump ran right through two parties, not just the Democratic Party. He ran through the Republican Party.

And that tells us -- I think it`s a humbling experience for all of us, as Americans, that so many of our neighbors are so fed up and ready to check out on our democracy, that they would turn to this -- turn to Donald Trump here.

So, look, as a party, we need to get back to the message that we are for opportunity for all. And while all of us would like our presidents to succeed, we don`t want Donald Trump to succeed in ordering our troops to commit war crimes. We don`t want him to succeed in loading up for-profit prisons with eight million people in internment camps.

Those are things we cannot compromise on. We need to be passionate about our values and we need to speak of issues that people care about most around their kitchen table. And that is their own kids` future.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you so much. Well said, Governor Martin O`Malley.

O`MALLEY: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Annie Linskey is a political reporter with "The Boston Globe." And also senior political reporter -- we also have Perry Bacon with us, senior political reporter for our NBC News.

I want to start with Perry, because we talk all the time.


MATTHEWS: But let`s just teach some -- do some teaching now. Who are the leaders of the Democratic Party? What are the factional options? If you`re a Democrat, who are you looking to, to tell you what`s going on?

BACON: I think, first of all, the Congress has the biggest role in terms of blocking Trump. So, that`s Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.

MATTHEWS: Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

OK, that`s the established elected leadership.

BACON: Leadership.


BACON: And I think you have Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, who have these national followings, who -- Bernie ran. Warren almost ran. Big followings.

And then I would say there`s a younger group, maybe I would say Kamala Harris in California, Cory Booker of New Jersey, a younger crowd of people. I would say Sherrod Brown I want to list as well, people who are...


MATTHEWS: Yes. You know what you`re just doing? You`re listing all the people I want. We all had a meeting of producers today, the people we want on the show, Cory Booker and Sherrod Brown and Kamala Harris, the new senator from California.

BACON: There`s a younger generation of people who I think are going to have to step up.

MATTHEWS: So it`s the young people. It`s the established leaders who have been there forever and will be there for a while, especially -- well, Chuck Schumer`s going to be there for a while -- and Pelosi.

And then you have sort of the progressive, very strong progressive, who have that whole -- usually, when the moderates, Hillary Clinton being a moderate, loses, then the progressives say, don`t blame us, blame the moderates, it`s our turn.


I mean, look, I think the day after the election -- actually, hours after the election, I was just calling all of my sources to ask them that exact question. Like, who is the leader of the party right now? Who is the leader?

And it was a hard question for people to answer. And I think, when you mention Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, who, you`re right, they are the leaders of the party now, they are from New York and San Francisco. And that is a picture of the coastal elites that wasn`t enough to win an election.

And so the Democratic Party needs to figure out a way, not necessarily, as O`Malley said, and build up a 50-state strategy. They need a four-state strategy at this point. They need to rebuild that blue wall that just crumbled.

MATTHEWS: So, what are the Democrats going to do? What do you bet?

BACON: I think they`re going to do a couple of things.

I think, first of all, you saw those protests. They definitely got to have an outside strategy to appeal to the people who are very upset about Trump winning. I think this protest movement is not going away. So, you have to have someone who can speak to that.

MATTHEWS: Where does it go to? What does it end up doing, just petering out?

BACON: I don`t think it will. I think we have to know what Trump is going to do. If Trump does deportations, like...


MATTHEWS: Can you see the streets filled with young people? They are. Saw them in New York. We all -- you saw them.


BACON: Other places.

MATTHEWS: Are they going to stay there in the streets from now until inaugural day?

BACON: I don`t think they`re going to stay -- well, A, I don`t know. But I suspect they will stay there.


MATTHEWS: Because it gets cold out, you know?

BACON: But I do think, will they come back if Trump takes action against...


BACON: Of course. I think they can come back.

MATTHEWS: We`re going to hear more about that.

Please come back. We`re short on time tonight.

Thank you, Ann -- thank you, Annie.


MATTHEWS: And thank, Perry.

Up next, the Democrats, as they prepare their strategy, Trump`s building his team, and we`re learning more about the role of the Trump children and some of the strong hard-liners that Trump has now surrounded himself with.

The HARDBALL roundtable will be here for this troubling question.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We have less than 90 days now before the transfer of power is complete. Donald Trump is finalizing his transition team. Well, behind the scenes, warring factions in Trump world are playing a game of tug-of-war as to who really gets the final say.

Late today, we learned that vice president-elect Mike Pence, a Republican stalwart, will lead the team, replacing Chris Christie, who now assumes or becomes number two in this whole thing, a title of vice chairman, which means practically nothing.

Anyway, the transition staff also includes three children of Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric, Ivanka, and also his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Throughout the campaign, they have counseled their father and fiercely guarded the family brand. They will now set about the task of filling Cabinet positions for the new Trump administration.

Rudy Giuliani, an early supporter, was asked about his own prospects within the administration. Here`s what he told the press.


RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: I have no expectation. All I do is give my advice.

Donald has been my friend for 28 years. All of my work on behalf of him has been out of great loyalty and friendship to him. I can see already how he`s going to be a great president, and I`m glad I could play a small role.

QUESTION: What`s your advice for him in picking his Cabinet?

GIULIANI: That, I give to him personally.


MATTHEWS: Meanwhile, we continue to watch those anti-Trump protests out in the streets tonight. We`re seeing demonstrations in the streets of Atlanta and Miami right now.

For more on what we can expect, I`m joined by the roundtable, Jay Newton- Small, contributor for "TIME" magazine, Ken Vogel, chief investigative reporter for Politico, and Shirish Date, who is senior political correspondent for The Huffington Post.

I want to start with you, because you`re on top of this. I know you are.

Just explain to people who are trying to figure -- people on the left, for example, who are scared to death of this guy, what are the three factions fight for the heart of this new administration?


KENNETH VOGEL, POLITICO: Well, all these factions, all of these forces were really -- played a role in the change that we saw today, with Chris Christie being replaced as head of the transition team by Mike Pence.

We have the family. You mentioned them, Jared Kushner, the son-in-law, married to Ivanka Trump, extremely influential, was very influential actually in getting rid of Corey Lewandowski, the first campaign manager. He had clashed with some of the folks around Christie.

Interestingly, Christie had prosecuted Jared Kushner`s father years ago, though that, I understand, is not one of the main reasons why.

MATTHEWS: Oh, yes?

VOGEL: There were also social...


MATTHEWS: It would be with me. It would be with me. If somebody tried to knock my father off, I would say, I remember that.

VOGEL: And we understand that it did.

MATTHEWS: Isn`t that the reason we went to the Iraq War? Because W. didn`t like what Saddam Hussein did to his dad or tried to do?

VOGEL: They would argue there are some serious policy implications there.


MATTHEWS: OK, jump in, Jay, because I think it`s fascinating, because I`m -- of course, I think the kids are good, in a sense that they care about the long-term. That`s one thing about children. That`s why people in Third World countries want their oldest son to replace them, because they`re going to look out for them in the long run.

So, I would -- those kids have a long -- the ideologues scare me, people like Steve Bannon, Steve -- Bossie. They are hard-liners who will use the horse they`re on right now to go where they want to go.


MATTHEWS: Because they have always wanted to go in that hard-right direction, so Trump`s now their horse. But are they caring about the horse or where they want to go? Your thoughts?

NEWTON-SMALL: Well, so I think we`re going to see -- we`re going to learn a lot from who he picks as chief of staff. And if it`s somebody like Steve Bannon, you know he`s going to go...

MATTHEWS: That`s frightening.

NEWTON-SMALL: Yes, like really hard against like the establishment still, right?

And so -- and that`s really -- the second tier are sort of the guys who came up to the campaign with him, the Kellyanne Conways, the Steve Bannons, all those folks. And the third -- and Rudy Giuliani, Chris Christie, all those people who worked for the last year-and-a-half to get him elected.

And the third tier is really the establishment, right, like everybody else in the Republican Party. And so you see this sort of really fascinating competition between the second tier and the third tier on who`s going to be in the Cabinet.

MATTHEWS: OK. Who`s winning? Who`s winning? Who`s winning?

VOGEL: Well, we will see tonight, frankly.

MATTHEWS: What is tonight?

VOGEL: We understand that there could be a chief of staff decision as soon as tonight, and he`s choosing...


MATTHEWS: Why is he rushing?

VOGEL: ... we understand, between Steve Bannon, who does represent that populist wing, and Reince Priebus, who very much represents the establishment.

MATTHEWS: Priebus makes sense. I`m not his biggest fan, but I have got to tell you, a guy like him knows what he`s doing.

Shirish, let me ask you about something I care about. The one thing I liked about Trump, not the only -- some parts of him, I -- very mixed bag about. Some things, I detested, obviously.

I thought that he was anti-war. I thought he was going to take us back from that crazy neocon world of, we have to fight the next -- there`s always a war in the in-basket.


MATTHEWS: There`s always a war we want to fight.

John Bolton for secretary of state? That`s to throw back everything he suggested to the people who are sick of these wars. He`s a super hawk.

DATE: Yes. Well, he didn`t want to get involved in wars, and yet we have got to knock the hell out of ISIS, right? So, which is it?


DATE: And how do we do that without actually going to Syria in great numbers?


DATE: So, yes, I look at everything he said during the campaign and now ignore it, because the day before the election, he was saying crooked Hillary, and the night of the election, Secretary Clinton, you have done wonderful work and thank you for your service. So...

MATTHEWS: What do you think his voters think of that?

DATE: They think it`s magnificent, that, isn`t he a wonderful leader now?

MATTHEWS: Yes. They signed on to him before he said anything.

DATE: I think there will be some who are disappointed by...


MATTHEWS: Yes. But they seem to like him as a being.

NEWTON-SMALL: He`s entertaining.

DATE: Right.

MATTHEWS: No, they do have a -- the force field for him was so strong, it withstood -- Billy Bush, he`s out of a job for listening to the guy. I`m sorry. He was listening to him. And that`s what happened to him.


NEWTON-SMALL: Even today, he was -- he basically backtracked on all of his promises to Israel. He`s not going to move the embassy.

VOGEL: Obamacare.

NEWTON-SMALL: He`s not going to rip up the Iran deal.


MATTHEWS: I have watched that embassy number since I was born. And everybody when they would run said they are going to move it to Jerusalem, knowing the catastrophe that would create over there. People would be dying. They would be dying over -- well, I have a view about that whole thing. Somebody would die over rocks.

But the fighting over just outrageous over these symbolic moves. You mess around with the Temple Mount or anything, it`s all crazy.

Let me ask you about the Cabinet. What do you see happening? I mean, we have been hearing Bolton. We have been hearing Rudy Giuliani for secretary of state. We have been hearing Newt Gingrich for secretary.

Let`s just take that one job. It`s the most important Cabinet position, I think we agree. What do you hear?


Certainly, all those names are folks who we have heard.


MATTHEWS: How about reasonable people like...

NEWTON-SMALL: Stephen Hadley.

MATTHEWS: ... Stephen Hadley or...

VOGEL: Yes. That`s what`s so...


VOGEL: You raised the contrast between the...

MATTHEWS: Or Richard Haass?

VOGEL: ... noninterventionist rhetoric.

MATTHEWS: How about Richard Haass? How about the head of the...


VOGEL: Right. No, no, these are all like neocons. These are folks...


MATTHEWS: Well, Haass is not.


VOGEL: No. I mean the other folks who we just talked about, John Bolton, Jeff Sessions, these folks who are being considered for secretary of defense. They`re traditional Republican hawks.


You have been great tonight. You have been great. Here we go.

Come back and tell me something I don`t know.

We will be right back.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Jay, tell me something I don`t know.

JAY NEWTON-SMALL, TIME MAGAZINE: The people who really delivered this election for Donald Trump were surprisingly women. Non-college-educated white women swung very hard for Donald Trump. He was tied with them with Hillary a month before the election. They swung and he won them --

MATTHEWS: Near the end, too, I think.


KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: Talking to folks inside Trump`s transition team, and they are absolutely relishing, getting to people who opposed Trump in the primary to go pound sand.

MATTHEWS: Oh, great. That`s really helpful.

VOGEL: From everything from inauguration tickets to lobbying contests.

MATTHEWS: That`s really going to help them.

S.V. DATE, THE HUFFINGTON POST: For the last two months, Donald Trump has been complaining how much hard work it was, this campaigning stuff is. Wait until he gets in the office. I think he`s going to hate the job.

MATTHEWS: He`s going to need like -- Jim Baker, is he available?

Anyway, thank you, Jay Newton Small, Ken Vogel, and Shirish Date.

When we come back, a real treat at the end of this. My conversation with Jean Kennedy Smith, the sister of President Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, and Ted Kennedy. She talks for the first time about what it was like to grow up with that incredible family, the Kennedy family, in a very new personal book she`s written, "The Nine of Us."

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Tonight, we expect Hillary Clinton to make her first public appearance since her Wednesday morning concession. We got word late today that Secretary Clinton will likely address her campaign staffers tonight at a staff party in Brooklyn. That`s coming up tonight. I think it might be televised.

Keep watching us, because if it is televised, you can bet it`s going to be on MSNBC.

HARDBALL back after this.


MATTHEWS: We are back.

Well, whatever you think about the history we`re going through right now, most of us hold something close to reverence for the period of the early 1960s, when John F. Kennedy was our president. He remains this country`s most popular ex-president, the one people most would like to see actually up there on Mt. Rushmore.

Well, tonight, a personal look at the Kennedys from Jean Kennedy Smith who grew up with Jack and Robert and all the rest. Here`s our exclusive interview.


MATTHEWS: Ambassador, what was it like, you`re a Kennedy, growing up in the eighth -- you`re the eighth kid of nine kids. What was that like?

JEAN KENNEDY SMITH, AUTHOR, "THE NINE OF US": How much time do we have?


MATTHEWS: But you`re at the little kids` table, you`re way at the back of the pack.

KENNEDY SMITH: Yes, it`s true. Well, we were a very close family, you know? My brothers were home a great deal, because they were at boarding school and all of that. But right from the beginning, mother and my father was very engaged in what we were all doing. And we were all told to be sort of some for each other.

And Bobby was just above me, so he had to keep an eye on me and Pat, who was also my next older sister. I was very close to both of them growing up, and Teddy on the other side. I was right between them. I knew them very well.

And being the eighth of nine, you know, everybody told you what to do. So the only person I could tell what to do was Teddy. And that wasn`t easy.

MATTHEWS: Can you remember them now? In your book, you seem to remember them pretty well.


MATTHEWS: -- attorney general and senator from Massachusetts and all that, and your sister and all of that, before all the celebrity of the Kennedy family, before all the tragedy, before everything, you seem to have a pretty good memory.

KENNEDY SMITH: Oh, yes, well, we did everything together, you see. Mother delegated everything. Pat, you take care of Jean, when we go to the movies, dad always say, Jack, you look after Bobby, all of that.

So, we all, we were engaged with each other and everything we did. And we were all included. So, most things, at least. And so --

MATTHEWS: Did it seem normal to have nine kids? Did that seem abnormal to have a family that large?

KENNEDY SMITH: No, because we all had fun. We really did have a great time. You didn`t have to call a friend or call anybody to come over, because we were perfectly happy. If we didn`t like part of the day, we grabbed Eunice and go for a sail or something. So, it worked out very well.

MATTHEWS: When you were still a kid, you had an older brother, Joe Jr.


MATTHEWS: Who of course went off and got killed in World War II.

KENNEDY SMITH: He was my godfather, too.

MATTHEWS: Yes, and they were -- the kids were so much -- the older boys, like Jack Kennedy and Joe and Kick were all so much older than you. Were they like uncles or aunts --

KENNEDY SMITH: No, they were sort of -- they were an older brother, but they were very solicitous for the younger ones. And Joe was my godfather, as well as my oldest brother. He would always write me letters at school and see how I was doing and are you sad and stuff. You know, is work easy, we`ll see you next weekend, and don`t worry about anything.

MATTHEWS: How do you reconcile a picture of Jack Kennedy as president, a celebrated, handsome president, leader of the world, puts a man on the moon, Cuban missile crisis, all that stuff, Peace Corps, all the good stuff. How do you connect that to him as a brother, growing up as a kid?

KENNEDY SMITH: Well, I`ll tell you right now, actually, there`s a picture in this room of him, that he gave -- there it is. And it says, "Dear Jean, don`t deny you did it. This was right after he was president."

And so he gave it to me personally and I thought, isn`t that wonderful that he recognized I made all these speeches for him. And then, of course, I had a little peek at Pat`s. "Dear Pat, don`t deny you did it." So he said to everyone, don`t deny you did it.

We were all so happy, and then we found out we were all being congratulated, but nevertheless --

MATTHEWS: But you know all the secrets when he was young, he wasn`t this prince charming. He was sick all the time. He was in bed. He had something like leukemia, they thought he had for years, he was getting his blood checks all the time, he had the bad back, he had later Addison`s disease, but he was a sickly kid lying in bed reading under the covers, like sort of a dorky kid, who wasn`t that cool.

And nobody thinks about him that way.

KENNEDY SMITH: No. Well, because he never really was that way. I mean, I saw him a lot when he was sick. But he would be in bed. He would have a book that he loved.

I mean, you never stop reading. Never. And I never saw him -- when I saw him I saw him reading, I just knew he loved books and I didn`t bother him or anything. It was just -- he never complained.

And a couple of times when actually when he was president I would see him get in the car, you know, and hold his back. But other than that, I never heard him say anything.

MATTHEWS: What do you make of that?

KENNEDY SMITH: Because he wasn`t a whiner.


KENNEDY SMITH: You know, some people are whiners.


KENNEDY SMITH: And he wasn`t. He -- you never said how are you feeling? Because he didn`t want to talk about it, and then he would always play touch football with us. That`s in the book.

MATTHEWS: OK, talk about that. I didn`t think I`d ask you about that, but this obsession with touch football. The Kennedys almost introduced the game. It was two-handed touch, right?


MATTHEWS: Was it one-handed?

KENNEDY SMITH: One-handed.


KENNEDY SMITH: Because it was something we could all play together without a lot of organization or anything. So we just split.

MATTHEWS: Talk about Bobby because football was -- he determined to get the letter at Harvard, he got the letter at Harvard. He played with a broken leg at one point, in the Yale game. He didn`t actually play but he was in uniform and he got off the bench and they gave him credit for that.


MATTHEWS: What was that drive about? Why did he have to be such a jock? Why did he have to do that?

KENNEDY SMITH: Because he had drive for everything. Whatever he wanted to do, he wanted to do well. And he had -- he loved sports from the get go because Jack didn`t do much. He did the best he could. And Joe was away a lot. And he just took charge of a lot of things in the family.

MATTHEWS: Jack got the swimming letter.

KENNEDY SMITH: Yes. He was a terrific swimmer. He was a really good swimmer.

MATTHEWS: When did you get the idea growing up that your family was headed to the White House? When did it click, my God, my father has a plan here and he wants his oldest kid to be president? When did that get around the house?

KENNEDY SMITH: You hear the discussions in the book we discussed very much about the war, the Second World War and what we were going to do and what Roosevelt was going to do and what America was going to do. It was a very ongoing conversation.

And as you probably know, my father was against America getting involved in that. So it was very animated conversation. So, they were expecting something and he was very much in the conversation.

MATTHEWS: Did anybody ever take on your dad, defend FDR, because I know he didn`t like FDR`s war policy, didn`t like getting in the war? He didn`t believe in that.

KENNEDY SMITH: No, he didn`t. Not at all, no. We didn`t actually have many arguments with my father.

Now, generally, we respected him who he knew, we thought, everything. He was very engaging when he talked. He didn`t tell us what to think or what to do or anything like that.

I mean, he really say, Jack, what do you think, what do think we should do? Should we send all these men to war in Europe? What does Europe mean to America? (INAUDIBLE) made you think about why are we in this?

And so, he kept it very lively like that, asked their opinions a great deal. And I think they very -- they respected that a lot that they were heard. It made them more and more interested. He`d sort of lead the conversation that way.

MATTHEWS: Your family`s always, even when they`re on the liberal side of things, I shouldn`t say even though, but they are on the liberal side of politics, absolute patriots. Almost --


MATTHEWS: And you all join the military, everybody got in, all the brothers did, they all fought. And one was killed, one was almost killed, Jack, and Bobby and Teddy went in as well. It does seem to be something in your family, the love of this country is powerful stuff.

KENNEDY SMITH: Yes, oh, absolutely. Well, I mean, they thought that was one of our things that we have to realize that no whining in this house. You read that chapter. And that was all because if you were complaining, you know, you should be so grateful to live in America. You should be thinking about all the time what you can do for this country.

No whining in this house. So, that was very strict.


MATTHEWS: Oh, that`s a real story, and she`s the real thing. Of course, Jean Kennedy Smiths book is called "The Nine of Us: Growing Up Kennedy". It`s filled with personal stories about coming of age of that incredible family.

By the way, this weekend, go buy your books, go to Amazon and get this book. It`s a great -- it`s not too early to get a Christmas present for your friends. It`s a hell of a good book about real people who happen to be the Kennedys.

When we return, let me finish with a huge question of where President-elect Trump is taking us. This won`t be as sublime as what I just had there, that interview with Jean Kennedy Smith.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a huge question of where President- elect Trump is taking himself. This is a critical time in a critical question. Why? Because before he takes the country in any direction, he will first take himself in that direction.

If Mr. Trump picks a bunch of angry people eager for trouble types, that will be the name of the game for the next four years. If Mr. Trump picks a group of people looking to advance changes they truly believe are good for the country, eager to find ways to do it and people to do it with, that`s an all together different thing.

And one area that worries me is foreign policy. I was impressed with Trump`s opposition, at least in hindsight, to the Iraq war. If he was so ready to say it was a bad war, a bad decision, I saw a sign of hope because the political establishment of this country, Democrats and Republicans, backed that horrendous decision down the line. That decision, which cost so many lives and through the Mideast open to the hell we have burning over there today.

So I sit here worried, is he really going to pick a war hawk as his secretary of defense? Is he really going to let the people who took us to war in 2003 who were the cheerleaders for disaster take another bite at the apple?

Just listen to neocons, they`re dying for another for another U.S. entry in battle over there. It began with Iraq, then it was Libya, then it was the endless call to throw our young men and women into Syria. The endless battle cries against Iran.

Picking someone like John Bolton for secretary of state or any position of power would be a betrayal of months and months of offering this country an alternative to the stupidity of the Iraq war.

The first job of any president-elect is to do no harm. Picking John Bolton or any neocon hawk would be for Donald Trump to jump into bed with a viper.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

And to all the veterans who served our country, thank you for your service.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.