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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 9/23/2016

Guests: McKay Coppins, Jeanne Zaino, Sahil Kapur, Katie Peralta, Colette Forrest, Rick Tyler, Jennifer Granholm

Show: HARDBALL Date: September 23, 2016 Guest: McKay Coppins, Jeanne Zaino, Sahil Kapur, Katie Peralta, Colette Forrest, Rick Tyler, Jennifer Granholm

STEVE KORNACKI, GUEST HOST: Charlotte on edge.

This is HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Steve Kornacki, in for Chris Matthews.

We are following developments out of Charlotte today in the case of Tuesday`s fatal police shooting of Keith Lamont Scott. NBC was first to release video today capturing the shooting. The video was provided to us by the attorney for the Scott family, and it shows Scott`s interaction with police. You can hear his wife`s voice in the recording as the scene plays out.

The video obviously is disturbing, and while you will hear the gunshots, you will not see anyone shot. We do not know all of the circumstances that led to this incident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up!

RAKEYIA SCOTT, KEITH SCOTT`S WIFE: Don`t shoot him. Don`t shoot him. He has no weapon. He has no weapon. Don`t shoot him!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t shoot. Drop the gun! Drop the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gun!

SCOTT: Don`t shoot him! Don`t shoot him!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

SCOTT: He didn`t do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun! Drop the gun!

SCOTT: He doesn`t have a gun. He has a TBI.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

SCOTT: He`s not going to do anything to you guys. He just took his medicine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun! Let me get a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) baton over here.

SCOTT: Keith, don`t let them break the windows. Come on out the car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

SCOTT: Keith! Don`t do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

SCOTT: Keith, get out the car. Keith! Keith! Don`t you do it! Don`t you do it! Keith!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

SCOTT: Keith! Keith! Keith! Don`t you do it!

(EXPLETIVE DELETED) Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him? He better not be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead! He better not be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead. I know that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) much! I know that much. He better not be dead.

I`m not going to come near you! I`m going to record, though. I`m not coming near you. I`m going to record, though. He better be alive because (INAUDIBLE) He better be alive. How about that?

Yes, we here, over here at 50 at 50 -- 9453 Lexington Court. These are the police officers that shot my husband, and he better live. He better live because he didn`t do nothing to them!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is everybody good? Are you good?

SCOTT: He good. Ain`t nobody touch nobody, so they`re all good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You good?

SCOTT: I know he better live. I know he better live. How about that? I`m not coming to you guys, but he`d better live. He better live. Y`all hear this and you see this, right? He better live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

SCOTT: He better live. I swear he better live. Don`t shoot him! Don`t shoot him! He has no -- he better (EXPLETIVE DELETED) live. He better live. Where is -- he better (EXPLETIVE DELETED) live, and I can`t even leave the damn -- I ain`t going nowhere! I`m staying in the same damn spot! What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? That`s O.K. Did you all call the police? I mean did you all call an ambulance?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: The city of Charlotte has been wracked by days of violence and protests since the news of the shooting. Last night, protests remained largely peaceful. The family has called on the police to release any and all videos that they have.

And Hillary Clinton today echoed that request in a tweet that said, "Charlotte should release police video of the Keith Lamont Scott shooting without delay. We must ensure justice and work to bridge divides."

And late today, Clinton`s campaign announced that she will be visiting the city of Charlotte this Sunday, that just a day before the first debate.

NBC`s Ron Mott joins us now. He is in Charlotte. So Ron, the dispute this week between the family and the city in the aftermath of this has been whether he had a gun and whether that officer who shot him felt threatened. You have his wife there saying he doesn`t have a weapon. You have the police saying repeatedly there, Drop the gun, drop the gun. Obviously, there`s a lot of audio here, not as much in terms of a video record.

What is the family hoping that releasing this will achieve?

RON MOTT, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think releasing this tape is clearly emotional. You can hear it in this wife`s voice. And that`s going to evoke some sort of a reaction from people who are closely watching the developments in this case.

One development we can tell you about tonight, Steve, just came out late this afternoon from the mayor herself, Jennifer Roberts. It`s a statement echoing what Secretary Clinton has said about the release of the bodycam and dashcam video.

She says, quote, in a statement, "I respect the investigative process, and I want to ensure the integrity of the independent investigation of the State Bureau of Investigation. I urge you to use every resource at its disposal to get this done and release the information to the public as quickly as possible."

Now, this is a dramatic change in position that the mayor had just last night at 11:00 o`clock Eastern time in an interview with Brian Williams, where she reiterated the government`s position here that they believe releasing the tape was not necessarily -- would not necessarily be beneficial at this time, while the circumstances of this shooting from Tuesday continue to be investigated.

Now, today, the local police department, the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department, transferred custody of this case over to the State Bureau of Investigation. It`s an independent investigation now because there are police officers involved in this shooting.

The FBI now will make all statements going forward with respect to this case, so there is now even more pressure now to have this public release of these bodycam and dashcam videos that the family saw with their attorney, along with the police department. Those are the only parties who have seen the official tapes of the shooting from the police officers` vantage point.

As you mentioned, the tape released by Mrs. Scott does not show his shooting, but it does, in fact -- you hear the emotion and her pain following it -- Steve.

KORNACKI: You certainly do. NBC`s Ron Mott on the ground there in Charlotte. Ron, thank you for that.

And we`re joined now by MSNBC law enforcement analyst Jim Cavanaugh, and also with us, Colette Forrest, a community activist and member of the Charlotte NAACP, and Katie Peralta, a reporter for "The Charlotte Observer."

Katie, let me just start with you, reporter on the ground there. This pressure we`re hearing about, just in the last few minutes here, the mayor of Charlotte weighing in. You have Hillary Clinton weighing in. You have the family putting this video out in the hopes of prodding the police department to release the dashcam video, any bodycam footage that they have.

What is your sense of whether that will make the police department budge and release their video?

KATIE PERALTA, CHARLOTTE OBSERVER: Honestly, I have no idea. I wish I had a better educated sense of where this was going. But in all honesty, it does evoke a lot of emotion. I can say that for certain. People on all sides of this discussion are going to feel something when they listen to that tape. And I think you`re going to see that playing out in protests throughout the weekend, demonstrations. Whether or not they remain peaceful, I think that remains to be seen. What the CMPD does I think is anybody`s guess.

KORNACKI: Well, Jim Cavanaugh, law enforcement expert, let me ask you. Just watching and listening to that tape we just played in its entirely -- again, the central dispute here the this week between the family and the police has been about whether Keith Lamont Scott had a weapon, had a gun. And again, you hear his wife there saying, He doesn`t have a weapon. You have the officers there saying repeatedly, Drop the gun, drop the gun.

What is your reading based on what you`re seeing here? Does it shed any light on that?

JIM CAVANAUGH, MSNBC LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it does, Steve. I think the totality of the circumstances show that Mr. Scott had a gun, but having a gun does not mean that the shooting is justified.

So let`s just back up for a minute. So the police chief said they found a gun there. There`s a photograph that`s released a few days ago of a gun at the scene. And now this video is released. If this video is broken down very carefully, you can see behind the officer in the red shirt, just after Mr. Scott is shot, an object on the ground behind him. The officer moves back with his left foot and sort of secures that, straddles that item. I believe that`s the pistol.

And he stays with it. You can see it starts at about -- on the NBC frame about 1:05 seconds into it. 1:08, the officer kind of moves his left leg back, he straddles that pistol, I believe, on the ground. He stays with it.

Later on, when the still shot`s taken, that officer has moved ahead to Mr. Scott, and they`re trying to render some kind of aid, first aid to him, and the gun is visible, which showed up in the still shot. So I think, really, the totality of the evidence shows there`s a firearm involved.

Now, that doesn`t mean the shooting is justified. Also, the frame shows -- there`s a few frames that show early on, about 50 seconds into it, Mr. Scott`s back, as he`s coming back by the pickup truck. So we know we heard the descriptions of him walking backwards. It`s very brief in this iPhone video. It has to be slowed down and stopped to see it, but he actually is -- you see his back toward his wife. And it looks like his hands are down, from the way you can see it.

So the officer who fired is going to have to articulate that, you know, there was some reasonable cause to -- that he believed that his life and the life of others was in imminent threat of death or serious injury. That doesn`t -- you can`t just shoot someone for having a gun. So you have to - - you know, there`d have to be some other reason to do that.

But I think the calls about, you know, he did not have a gun, the evidence seems to be mounting against that pretty clearly, and the discussion needs to probably move on from that.

KORNACKI: Colette Forrest with the Charlotte NAACP, let me ask you, just watching this video, what do you see in this video?

COLETTE FORREST, ACTIVIST: To me, even hearing the speaker talk and speak to it, there`s confusion because he says there`s an object, but he later on says the officer had to move his leg to be able to clearly see what`s visible.

I think that we need to have the video released, so either to exonerate CMPD and to validate what they`re saying, that there was a gun present by Mr. Scott, or to vindicate the Scott family, as they have said the entire time that he had no gun.

We`re talking about an individual that suffered a brain injury. That`s when she says TBI. that`s traumatic brain injury. I grew up with this family. Mr. Scott`s mother worked with my auntie at a health care facility. Mr. Scott`s twin sisters took care of my grandfather when he was dying of cancer. So he comes from a care-taking, health-providing family.

So if you truly wish to move us past the point of peace, release the video so it can either corroborate with what CMPD is saying or it can vindicate what the Scott family is saying.

But the longer that you dig into your refusal, I feel like you`re only building the distrust that the community, African-American and others, feel and are feeling towards the position.

And as it relates to the recent reversal of Mayor Jennifer Roberts, what we have to recognize -- she`s up for reelection next year. So she is not looking at what`s best for the community or what`s best for the family because if she did, she would have immediately called for the release of the video.

Right now, she`s trying to salvage her very infancy (ph) mayoral campaign for next year and to try to restore some sort of credibility to her mayor`s office.

KORNACKI: Well, earlier today, Charlotte police chief Kerr Putney addressed the questions regarding the release of the videos. This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF KERR PUTNEY, CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG POLICE DEPT.: I know the expectation that video footage can be the panacea, and I can tell you that is not quite the case. There are a lot of other factors that have to support and corroborate even what you might visually see. But the process is painstakingly slow sometimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: Katie Peralta, I guess that`s the question here, too. I mean, there`s the issue of whether the video should be released. There`s also the question of would the video resolve some of the central questions here. The police have been saying even if the video was put out there for the public to view, that there is ambiguity in this, an ambiguous video.

And watching the video today, as I said, you`ve got the police saying, Drop the gun, you`ve got his wife saying he doesn`t have a weapon. You`ve got her saying -- you`ve got the wife saying, Don`t do it, don`t do it, unclear exactly what she`s referring to there. Seems there`s some ambiguity.

Would it necessarily clear things up to have that police video out there, or is the possibility here we may never be able to fully piece this together?

PERALTA: I think that last point you just made, that we might never be able to piece this together, might be a really -- real possibility.

You know, it`s now more than two days after the fact, and there are still so many questions that linger. And I think that the longer we wait, or you know, the longer they wait to act on this or to do anything or to be transparent, which they have stressed from the beginning is something of utmost importance to them -- the longer that they wait, the worse it looks, you know, and the more frustrated people are going to get looking for answers.

It just seems a little bit strange that still, at this point, there are so many questions. And if there is this evidence that could be available, I don`t know -- you would think that maybe -- I don`t know. It`s just -- it remains to be seen what they`re going to do with this, but I think that it`s going to certainly cause a lot of heated debate here in Charlotte.

KORNACKI: And again...

FORREST: And Chief Putney...

KORNACKI: I`m sorry. Go ahead, Colette.

FORREST: Because Chief Putney himself is saying initially that the video doesn`t resolve anything exhaustively, and there is ambiguity, then why wasn`t his first statement, Let`s do an exhaustive, right now? I don`t want to speak in a definitive pose. Let`s do an exhaustive search of evidence and gather the facts before we speak to it.

But straight out the gate, he was definitively saying he had a gun. He was definitively saying it was pointed towards the officer. So if he`s now saying, backing up, as Jennifer Roberts is, that there`s a lot of ambiguity and the video will not answer all questions, then why on God`s earth did you come out of the gate so definitively?

KORNACKI: Well, and Jim Cavanaugh, can you speak to that, the law enforcement, the police chief down there making definitive statements at the very beginning of this, saying that the video is ambiguous, not releasing it, but being definitive in his version of what happened.

Is that unusual from a law enforcement standpoint? What was going on there?

CAVANAUGH: Yes, I think the chief probably should have, you know, held his statement. That`s a good point that was made there by the speaker because, you know, he may be getting reports up the chain of command that the officer who fired, you know, had a gun pointed at him, and he`s reporting that.

Really, what he needs to do is say, OK, we`re going to investigate it, and look at the video himself. I think the video may show that Mr. Scott had a gun, or the object in his hand may not be clear in the video, but it`s going to turn out to be a pistol. They`re going to have the pistol that`s been recovered, maybe traced. I think you see it in the new iPhone video.

But it`s possible Mr. Scott never pointed the gun, or you can`t see that in the video. So then the officer would have to articulate why he fired. Did he see a movement? Because he would have to be able to articulate his reason for pulling the trigger.

But one thing that people haven`t discussed, Steve, is I believe Mr. Scott was somewhat confused here because the first vehicles that arrived that shot into the parking lot there were unmarked. There is a marked cruiser that comes in, but initially, there`s some unmarked Suburbans and vans. And you know, he`s sitting in the truck facing away from them. I think he probably becomes confused, maybe thinks it`s a robbery.

You know, I`ve been on many raids like that. People don`t know what`s going on. And then he becomes confused, and maybe if he was medicated, maybe he just wasn`t acting right. So I think there`s some confusion on the part of Mr. Scott, who was involved in no crime, committing no criminal act, may have legally possessed the gun.

I`m not saying that having the gun means you can shoot him. I`m just saying the facts are mounting that there is a gun there, and it is in the video, you hear the officer`s commands. There`s an officer in a red shirt who`s standing next to the passenger door of the truck, looking right in, looks like it`s there in still pictures. So I do think probably there`s a pistol here.

The question is whether there was a justified use of force by the officer who fired. That`s a different question.

KORNACKI: OK. Jim Cavanaugh, Colette Forest, Katie Peralta...

FORREST: And when you talk about the gun...

KORNACKI: I`m sorry, we`ve got to get into a break here. But I appreciate all of you joining us.

And again, this situation, obviously, Hillary Clinton going there this Sunday, certainly, we have not heard the last of this. And we will be keeping an eye on what is happening in Charlotte throughout the hour.

We are also, while we do that, continuing to look ahead to the first presidential debate. That will be coming up this Monday. Both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are off the campaign trail as they enter their final preparation before that face-off. We`re going to talk to two of our political experts about what to expect.

Plus, how can Clinton beat Trump in that first debate? And what does Trump need to do if he wants to put a win on the board? We`re going to talk to two people, one from each side, who know just what it is like to prepare for the biggest stage in presidential politics.

And the latest polls -- they show Clinton leading nationally. Trump maybe needs to do something to close that gap at the debate, but we`ve gone inside the numbers to find out just how big Trump`s challenge is going to be. The polls right now show people have some serious questions about whether he`s a plausible president.

And finally, the HARDBALL roundtable`s going to be here to tell me and you three things about this presidential race that you might not know.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: We are just three days away from the first presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, and you can watch it all right here Monday night on MSNBC. Chris Matthews is going to be joined by Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow for complete coverage. That`s going to start at 7:00 o`clock Eastern time.

And then 9:00 o`clock Eastern, the main event, Lester Holt moderating the presidential debate. When that is over, Chris will be back with post-game analysis and late-night coverage, all of it coming up Monday night here on MSNBC.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We are just three days away from the first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. In this crucial period, the candidates seem to be preparing in very different ways. Hillary Clinton has spent three days off the trail this week. She`s been studying up on debate material, watching video of Trump`s past debate performances.

According to "The New York Times," the goal is to get under his skin -- quote -- "Mrs. Clinton has a thick dossier on Mr. Trump after months of research and meetings with her debate team, including analysis and assumptions about his psychological makeup that Clinton advisers described as critical to understanding how to knock Mr. Trump off-balance. Mrs. Clinton has concluded that catching Mr. Trump in a lie during the debate is not enough to beat him. She needs the huge television audience to see him as temperamentally unfit for the presidency and that she has the power to unhinge him."

Trump`s approach seems more lax. Here was his campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I don`t think he`s locked up in a cabin for two weeks, like other people have been or currently are, cramming their heads with microchips and binders.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: But he`s a brilliant man.

QUESTION: But is he practicing, Kellyanne?

CONWAY: Of course.

QUESTION: I mean, is he doing mock debates?

And, if so, who`s playing the part of Hillary?

CONWAY: No one is playing the part of Hillary. We all know Hillary Clinton very well. She`s easily flummoxed. She did not see Bernie Sanders coming in the primaries this year. She did not do well in debates against Barack Obama in 2008. And she never saw -- she never anticipated our comeback in the last five weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: And for more now, I`m joined by Hugh Hewitt, host of "The Hugh Hewitt Show" on Salem Radio Network, and Jonathan Capehart, opinion writer for "The Washington Post." Both are MSNBC political analysts.

So, Hugh Hewitt, the Trump campaign loves this contrast, the idea that Clinton is huddled with a team of researchers and psychologists and they`re spending all this time on it, and, meanwhile, Trump`s sort of just going to show up and be himself. That`s the contrast they like.

Do you think Trump`s actual approach, though, is that hands-off, or is he quietly, behind the scenes, doing more studying than we realize?

HUGH HEWITT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: When I was on the stage, when I was there four times with him, is, he is a practiced television professional who has spent hundreds of hours on stage.

But he is not a binder breaker, as Kellyanne Conway just did. I think Secretary Clinton`s greatest strength is that she comes off as -- everyone is kind of high school. She`s the toughest teacher in the high school. She is the AP teacher with the very hidden heart of gold.

I don`t think she should try and bait him. She will kill him. He will kill her if she tries to bait him, because he`s the better performer. She`s the better student.

KORNACKI: What do you think of that, Jonathan Capehart? Risk for Hillary Clinton if she shows up with these attacks designed to get under his skin and, as they say, unhinge him?

JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, look, I think that Secretary Clinton is in what I call a damned-if-you situation. She is damned if she does, damned if she doesn`t.

She`s damned if she tries to overtly get under his skin, if she goes on the attack first, if she personally attack him. She`s -- there`s a danger of him either looking like the AP teacher with the hidden heart of gold or, as someone said I think on our air, that, you know, she might look like Tracy Flick from the movie "Election," someone who is sort of unctuous and annoying, but hyper-smart and totally determined and motivated.

And I think that -- I think there`s a lot of psyops going on here, where everyone`s communicating either in print or on television what their candidate is or isn`t doing.

But I do think that Donald Trump runs the risk of -- at a time when polls show that people view him as someone who`s temperamentally unfit and not ready to be president, to sort of wing it on a night when many people think that the biggest television audience ever will be watching, two people debate to see who should sit in the Oval Office, arguably, the most important and toughest job in the world.

KORNACKI: Yes, well, Hugh, so this is -- Hillary Clinton had a little different preparation for this than Donald Trump.

In the Democratic primaries, it was basically one on one up there with Bernie Sanders. She got more of an experience like she`s going to have on Monday night. In the Republican primaries, 10 candidates, commercial breaks, Trump could talk for two minutes, disappear for 10 minutes.

So, this in many ways is a new setting for him. To be in a more rigorous environment like that, he`s going to have to fill a lot more time. If he`s trying to appear presidential, it`s less about attacking the president, more about proving substance.

Do you think he`s up to it, filling 90 minutes in a way he didn`t have to in the primaries?

HEWITT: Very much so.

I think -- I watched him very closely. He stayed on the podium. He`s physically up to the task. It will not even be a problem for him. I don`t know if she`s fully recovered yet from the pneumonia. We will see whether that is there.

But I have got to say, for the parents out there who have just heard Jonathan reference the movie "Election," don`t have your kids watch that movie. That`s not really the movie you want them to learn about elections from.

(LAUGHTER)

HEWITT: But I will -- she`s a prohibitive favorite.

The Patriots are going in to play the Browns a week later. She is the Patriots. Donald Trump, on the oddsmakers` side, are the Browns going into the debates.

KORNACKI: Even if the Pats are on their fourth-string quarterback by then? We will see.

Jonathan.

(LAUGHTER)

CAPEHART: Steve, a couple of things to keep in mind that you brought up.

This will be terrain that Donald Trump has not trod before. It is a 90- minute debate, no commercials. But the other thing that people haven`t clued in to, clued in on, no audience reaction.

If you looked at all of those debates between Donald Trump and the 15, 16 other people, he fed off the applause or the boos or the laughter or the cheers from the audience. There will be none of that. That is Donald Trump`s oxygen.

And whether he can sustain a 90-minute performance one-on-one with no commercial breaks, without the ability to hide is -- remains to be seen. I`m not convinced.

KORNACKI: All right. Jonathan Capehart, Hugh Hewitt, thanks for the time.

Up next, we have got two people who know what it`s like to get ready for the biggest stage in presidential politics. That is straight ahead.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Milissa Rehberger. Here`s what`s happening.

President Barack Obama today vetoed legislation that would allow families of victims of the September 11 attacks to sue Saudi Arabia, saying the bill would hurt U.S. national security interests. The move sets Mr. Obama up for a possible first veto override by Congress.

And representatives of the U.S. and Russia met today, but made little progress on how to stop the Syrian civil war. That is according to U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry -- back to HARDBALL.

KORNACKI: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

The outcome of the first presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump depends in large part on whether they can successfully execute their strategies once they come face to face on Monday night.

Republican pollster Frank Lutz says that, for Hillary Clinton to win, she is going to need to prove her case that Donald Trump is unfit for office. Here`s his advice to Clinton. He says -- quote -- "Your mission is to demonstrate that every time he talks on the global stage, his words could defile the office, embarrass the country, and, yes, even provoke a war. Your objective should be to put Donald Trump and everything he has stood for on trial."

As for Trump, he needs to break that narrative and deflect Clinton`s attempts to box him. As conservative commentator Pat Buchanan writes -- quote -- "Trump has to convince a plurality of voters who seem prepared to vote for him that he is not a terrible risk and that he will be a president of whom they can be proud. The Trump on stage at Hofstra University will have 90 minutes to show that the malicious cartoon of Donald Trump is a libelous lie."

But Buchanan also points out the disparity between the candidates when it comes to expectations. He says: "Trump does not have to show a mastery of foreign and domestic policy details. He has to meet and exceed expectations, which are not terribly high."

I`m joined now by MSNBC political analyst Rick Tyler, who played Donald Trump in mock debates when he was an adviser to the Cruz campaign, as well as former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, senior adviser to the pro- Hillary super PAC Correct the Record.

Well, Rick Tyler, with an introduction like that, let`s start with you.

If you want to prepare a candidate to face Donald Trump on this stage, you have done it. The Clinton campaign`s trying to do it right now. What`s your advice to them?

RICK TYLER, FORMER TED CRUZ CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: I think it`s probably feeding his own words to him.

And that is, she needs to memorize a lot of his quotes about foreign policy and some of the absurdities that he`s said and just challenge him on that.

Having said that, I think that she has to convince the country that she is likable and honest and is in command of the facts. Those are her strengths. Donald Trump has to convince people that he has the temperament to be president.

My speculation and my guess is, Donald Trump will -- actually will show up and will be disciplined for this 90-minute debate. And because he`s graded on a bell curve, he will actually probably perform very well.

KORNACKI: Well, so, OK, Jennifer Granholm, let`s pick it up there. If that`s what happens, if Kellyanne Conway, who`s been trying to discipline Donald Trump -- she`s done a pretty good job keeping him off Twitter, I would say. He`s certainly toned it down on there, if that`s the standard.

If she succeeds in getting him to show up at this debate and do what Rick Tyler is talking about, which is, he`s there, he`s sort of trying to look presidential, he`s not trying to mix it up, we`re not necessarily seeing the primary season Donald Trump that we saw in the debates, what does Hillary Clinton do?

Does she try to prod him? Does she try to provoke him, or does she just try to be more presidential than him on that stage?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: Well, I`m sure there will be some element of trying to play his words back to him and see how he responds.

I`m sure there will be some element of drawing out and calling him out on the lies that he`s told in the past. I bet you there will be some kind of debate bingo card, which lists the top 10 Donald Trump lies, like, you know, that he opposed the war in Iraq or he opposed going into Libya.

But what this is really for her is a chance, in an unfiltered way, to talk to people and say why she is going to fight for them, what is in her heart, to come across -- and I think Rick is right about this -- to come across in a way that counters the impression that the right has tried to build up about her, that she`s not likable, but that she really is.

She`s got a sense of humor. Everybody knows she knows the policy. She`s got that down. But she has a chance to speak directly to people about why she`s going to fight for them and why he is completely unacceptable.

KORNACKI: Well, what`s the key, Rick Tyler? You have studied him. You have gone head to head with him.

TYLER: Yes.

KORNACKI: What`s the key? If you want to throw Donald Trump off his game in one of these debates, what do you do?

TYLER: Well, I think that`s exactly what they have prepared for.

And that is, feed his words to him, where it`s obvious that what he has said is wrong, and she`s trying to make a fool of him, or to mock him somehow. That would normally get under his skin. It may get under his skin, but he can`t allow it to.

And I think that`s probably what his debate team is coaching him on, that if he gives in to that temptation, that he`s going to lose.

KORNACKI: And, Jennifer Granholm, let me ask you about the expectations.

We have a Pat Buchanan quote there. I keep thinking back to George W. Bush, Al Gore, those 2000 debates, those fall 2000 debates, the expectation gap heading into those debates. Al Gore was supposed to be this peerless debater. George W. Bush was supposed to be sort of clumsy on stage. Those were the perceptions.

When people saw them head-to-head, they were surprised in many cases. They said, well, Bush was a little better than I thought, and Gore maybe was a little weak. That disparity ended up benefiting Bush.

Are you concerned that could happen with Trump here, too?

GRANHOLM: Of course.

Correct the Record has done a compilation of all of the network anchors who have admitted that he`s being graded on a curve. So, we`re hopeful that, you know, stations like MSNBC, NBC, are going to hold him to the same standard.

KORNACKI: But, Jennifer, can I ask you...

GRANHOLM: Yes.

KORNACKI: But can I ask you, not from the standpoint of a top-down, what the media tells people to think, perspective.

I`m saying, from the perspective of Americans who have seen a version of Donald Trump in the primary debates, who was very sort of in-your-face with opponents...

GRANHOLM: Yes.

KORNACKI: ... if a different Donald Trump shows up at this debate, just to the everyday voter watching that on TV, forget what I say or anybody says in the media, are you concerned how that voter is going to react?

GRANHOLM: Yes, but here`s the thing.

She has an opportunity to point this out. The man has had -- spent his whole life conning people. And here he is conning you again. Mr. Con Man is now conning you into thinking that he can be presidential.

This is one time. This is 90 minutes. But, remember, he`s got a full record that we can continue to remind you about. Don`t be fooled.

TYLER: The only problem with that, Governor, is that, you know, this is -- there`s going to about 100 million people that are going to tune into this debate, and there`s going to be a significant number of them who have not been paying really that close of attention, certainly not like you and I.

And there`s no context. There`s not going to be enough time to explain on either side, you know, to prosecute, if you like, Hillary`s lack of leadership as secretary of state or Donald Trump`s many scandals over the years, not to develop them.

And so people may come and look at Donald Trump, and if he is disciplined, and they will see a Donald Trump they didn`t expect. And it`s always about expectations. If they come to say, oh, this is the guy everyone`s been talking about, gee, he seems kind of reasonable to me, and it will be -- it will actually -- my prediction is, both of the candidates will probably do fairly well in the debate.

I don`t think there will be any defining moments of a winner or a loser. And that`s usually how most debates go. It will be the post-narrative of the debate, the day after. That`s the day the campaigns can never forget. They have got to make sure they get their story out there.

And whatever narrative develops out of that, that`s who will win the debate.

KORNACKI: All right, Rick Tyler, Jennifer Granholm.

GRANHOLM: Yes, I think that`s true. I agree with that.

KORNACKI: All right.

Well, I have got end to it there. But thank you both. I appreciate it.

TYLER: Thank, Steve.

(CROSSTALK)

KORNACKI: Some good pregame talk right there.

Up next: the big challenges facing Donald Trump heading into that first debate. Hillary Clinton has got the lead in the polls now, and a majority of Americans say they have serious questions about whether Trump can actually be president. The plausibility test, that`s ahead.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC GUEST ANCHOR: All right. Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We`re just three days away now from the first presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump and heading into that big showdown, let`s take a look at where the race stands right now and what the big challenges are facing the candidates, as they head into it.

So, let`s give you, first of all, nationally, it`s good news for Hillary Clinton this week. Remember, last week, the stories were about the polls tightening. Maybe it was the fallout from Hillary Clinton`s health scare at Ground Zero on the 9/11 anniversary.

But this week, look at this -- the past three national polls, a new one out just tonight, McClatchy and Marist puts her up by seven points. Our own NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll, seven. NBC News/Survey Monkey Online Poll puts her ahead again.

These are healthy leads that Clinton seems to be reestablishing an average, all the polls out there, it`s a three-point lead. That`s trending up for her as well. So, that`s good news for Hillary Clinton.

We can also show you this. The polls we have out there raise a real question about where the ceilings are for these candidates. How high can they climb in their support? And really the question is, is Hillary Clinton`s ceiling higher than Donald Trump?

And look at this, if you go back to the beginning of September, you can count nine polls where Hillary Clinton has scored 48 percent or higher, nine polls where she`s hit at least 48 percent. How many for Donald Trump? Zero. So Hillary Clinton has been able to climb higher in these polls so far than Donald Trump has.

When the race has tightened, it hasn`t so much been because Donald Trump`s numbers are rising, it`s been because Hillary Clinton`s support has been falling. So, that could be key as we get to Election Day. Is that offering us a clue about whether the ceiling is just too low for Donald Trump? That`s something to think about.

Also this, think about this heading into the debates. Some basic questions voters have about these candidates. A simple question here, is the candidate qualified to be president? Look at that advantage Hillary Clinton has over Donald Trump, just 30 percent of voters right now saying Donald Trump is qualified to be president. So, there`s a plausibility test there -- a plausibility problem right now for Donald Trump. That`s something he has to address at this debate.

How about this, as well? The question, does the candidate not respect ordinary Americans? Well, Hillary Clinton`s numbers not good this, 48 percent say she does not respect ordinary Americans.

Remember, the Trump campaign has been trying to drive that message home focusing on her deplorables comment. But Donald Trump, 60 percent of Americans say he doesn`t respect ordinary Americans. That`s a challenge for him.

Then, how about and this one? I mean, we just don`t see numbers like this in presidential races, but we do this year. The question is, is the candidate racist?

Half the voters right now say that Donald Trump is racist, just 21 percent for Hillary Clinton. Of course, with the news in Charlotte this week, the news in Tulsa, the issues of race and policing, likely to come up in this debate. That number probably worth keeping in mind, as well.

So, some of the numbers to have in your heads as we head to the debate. Right now, we`re going to head over to the HARDBALL roundtable. We`ve got McKay Coppins, he`s a senior political writer with "BuzzFeed", Jeanne Zaino is an author and political scientist, and Sahil Kapur is a national political reporter for "Bloomberg".

And I`ve been too slow walking over here, so I`ll keep talking as I climb the stage, take my seat, and say hello to the panel.

McKay Coppins, all those numbers we just ran through there. Is it realistic to think that Donald Trump after 90 minutes of this debate on Monday night against Hillary Clinton, that that number of people who say he`s not qualified to be president, that that falls? That the number of people who say he`s a racist, that that falls. Can he make progress on Monday night?

MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: He might be able to chip away at the margins. But, I mean, look, when half the voters, 50 percent say that a candidate is racist, that`s a pretty heavy charge to level in this country. And I think most voters take that very seriously.

And I don`t think most people watching a debate for 90 minutes, no matter how well a candidate performs, is going to change their minds overnight. Now, if he turns over a new leaf or something in this debate and continues it through Election Day, maybe he can chip away at it a little bit more. But I don`t think that you can fundamentally change the electorate`s perception of you with one debate.

KORNACKI: And, Jeanne, this is something I`ve been wondering about, because we talk so much about, these are the two most unpopular nominees ever put forward by the parties. And Hillary Clinton`s personal negative numbers, unfavorable numbers, they are through the roof. Donald Trump`s in most polls, they`re through the roof and even a little bit more through the roof than hers. But they`re both very high.

My question, though, when I start seeing poll numbers like that, on the question of racism, I don`t know if this can really be measured in polling. Is there a possibility, though, he is more unlikable, he is more severely objectionable to people than she is -- they may not like both of them, but the degree to which they dislike him is more intense?

JEANNE ZAINO, POLLSTER: Absolutely. And that`s what the Clinton team is hoping, right? They`re hoping they can make the case. This new ad out today, where she has this horrific series of statements that he made about women. And she has these young girls watching these statements.

It is horrifying for any woman or father or brother to watch this thing. That`s what they`re hoping to do, say, even if you don`t trust her, even if you have issues with Hillary Clinton, you cannot trust him. He is far, far worse.

And, of course, the Trump campaign is hoping to do the same thing with Hillary Clinton. They`re hoping to say that, you know, I may not be your favorite Republican, but I am far better that that Clinton or any Clinton, because that`s something that really brings Republicans together. So, they`re hoping that`s true and, you know, we`re going to have to see.

KORNACKI: You mentioned the ad the Clinton campaign is out, we have that. Let`s take a look at what the Clinton campaign is putting up here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I`d look her right in that fat ugly face of hers. She`s a slob. She ate like a pig. A person who`s flat-chested is very hard to be a 10. Does she have a good body? No. Does she have a fat (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You treat women with respect?

TRUMP: I can`t say that either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: All right, Sahil. So by the same token here, with all these negatives we just went through with Donald Trump, all the negatives the Clinton campaign sees there, he`s only -- he`s within striking distance of her, and especially when you start looking aft some of these battleground state polls, he is not that far behind. So he needs something, but he maybe doesn`t need that much.

SAHIL KAPUR, BLOOMBERG: Well, he needs, I think number one to break Hillary Clinton`s firewall in Colorado, Virginia and Pennsylvania. Those are the three swing states where she`s maintained a lead even as she`s slipped in other states. Donald Trump needs to win the swing states. He`s competitive, and flip one of those.

And I think the only way he can do that, with he`s got to pass the plausibility test. He`s got to move those numbers. If not, if this many people cannot imagine him as president, don`t think he has the basic qualifications for the job, that`s a very difficult thing to fix and that`s what he`s got to try to do. Because otherwise, he can get very close to her in recent polls, but he`s not going to be able to flip these swing states.

KORNACKI: The roundtable is staying with us.

Up next, Ted Cruz finally comes around. He is backing Donald Trump despite their ugly, and that is putting it mildly, primary battle.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: And you can play HARDBALL all week long online. Follow the show on Twitter and Instagram and like us on Facebook. You`ll get access to interviews, videos, behind the scenes photos as we cover the wide presidential campaign of 2016.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: And we`re back with the roundtable. McKay, Jeanne and Sahil.

Well, we have come a long way since the Republican primaries from when Donald Trump alleged that rival Ted Cruz`s father may have had something to do with the Kennedy assassination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: His father was with Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Oswald, you know, shot. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. What is this, prior to his being shot, and nobody even brings it up? I mean, they don`t even talk about that. That was reported and nobody talks about it. But I think it`s horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: After refusing to endorse Trump at the Republican convention in July, though, Ted Cruz today posted on his Facebook page that he will be voting for Donald Trump this November.

McKay, what`s going on? Was Ted Cruz surprised at the reaction of the Republican Party to his -- what he did at the convention?

COPPINS: Yes, well, so, yes, I have heard from people close to Ted Cruz that he was not expecting quite such a dramatic reaction at the RNC. But I think what also is going on here is that Ted Cruz is up for re-election in 2018. He`s just by nature of the very combative, divisive first term in the Senate he has had, he does not have a ton of allies in the state Republican Party or the National Republican Party, the kind of allies that an incumbent traditionally has.

He`s worried about a primary and he needs to make sure the conservatives are still on his side and he`s -- I think made the calculation that supporting Trump is a necessity to keep those people on his side.

KORNACKI: Will it do it, though, or is it too late, too transparent?

ZAINO: You know, it`s a politician playing politics. Nobody is surprised by this. We saw Marco Rubio, "I`m not running, now I`m running." "Oh, I can`t stand Donald Trump, now, I`ll go speak at the convention." You know, Ted Cruz, the same thing.

I do think voters actually do forgive them. So, I do think it will work, because I don`t think anybody is surprised when a politician says, it`s in my best interests now to endorse. So I`m going to do it. I don`t think anybody is going to will look askance at that. I think it`s going to work for him.

KORNACKI: OK. The roundtable is sticking with us. Up next, these three are going to tell me something I don`t know. That shouldn`t be too hard.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: All right. We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Sahil, we`ll start with you. Tell me something I don`t know.

KAPUR: So, a new study out today by the Rand Corporation provides a rare glimpse into the candidate`s health care plans. Hillary Clinton`s plan is expected to ensure 9 million people at the cost of $90 million. Donald Trump`s plan to repeal and replace Obamacare with a more deregulated system is expected to add $33 billion to the deficit and cost up to 20 million Americans their coverage.

KORNACKI: Something we might be hearing about in that debate.

Jeanne?

ZAINO: Well, I had a chance to talk to Congressman Rick Lazio who, you know, famously was the one who approached Hillary Clinton on the podium in the New York Senate race as we all remember, and it was just fascinating to hear him talk about his recollection as to what happened, and what he says his campaign manager approached him before, said your numbers look good, but you got to be tough out there. You can`t let her get the better of you.

And that`s when he approached and it wasn`t rehearsed and he said, you know what, I regret it because it was never me. That`s all we remember from that debate, which goes to show no matter what you say, it doesn`t matter. It`s how you present and you got to be yourself.

KORNACKI: You think he ever gets tired of talking about that?

(LAUGHTER)

ZAINO: He hates it. Poor guy.

KORNACKI: McKay?

COPPINS: My colleague Ruby Cramer at BuzzFeed covers the Hillary Clinton campaign. She has a great in depth story about a debate inside the Clinton campaign and among Democrats earlier this year about how to approach Donald Trump from a messaging standpoint and the ultimate decision by the Clinton campaign to, quote, "disaggregate" him from the rest of the Republican Party, saying that he`s even more extreme than the rest of the Republicans.

This is causing a lot of waves in progressive and Democratic circles who are worried about down-ballot races and the implications on the rest of the election. I think this is something we`ll keep hearing about. Check out the story.

KORNACKI: OK. McKay Coppins, Jeanne Zaino, Sahil Kapur, thank you all for being here.

That`s HARDBALL for now.

And "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END