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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 9/22/2016

Guests: Rev. William Barber, A.J. Delgado, John Feehery, Steve McMahon, Wesley Lowery

Show: HARDBALL Date: September 22, 2016 Guest: Rev. William Barber, A.J. Delgado, John Feehery, Steve McMahon, Wesley Lowery

STEVE KORNACKI, GUEST HOST: A city on edge and a nation divided.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

And good evening. I`m Steve Kornacki, in for Chris Matthews, who is in Ireland to receive the Tip O`Neil Irish Diaspora Award.

Meanwhile, Charlotte, North Carolina, is bracing for violence tonight. The National Guard has arrived to try to prevent what would be a third consecutive night of unrest in the wake of the police-involved shooting of 43-year-old Keith Lamont Scott.

Demonstrations spiraled out of control around 8:00 PM last night. Riot police deployed tear gas as protesters vandalized and looted stores. Forty-four people in total were arrested. Several were injured, and one man died late today after he was shot last night outside the Omni Hotel in Charlotte. The city`s police chief said this morning that they are trying to determine who carried out that shooting.

Meanwhile, the governor of North Carolina declaring a state of emergency. He deployed the National Guard, and this afternoon, Attorney General Loretta Lynch also pleaded for restraint. She announced that she was sending Justice Department to the city.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORETTA LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: The Department of Justice is sending four members of our community relations service to Charlotte. But I urge those responsible for bringing violence to these demonstrations to stop because you`re drowning out the voices of commitment and change and you`re ushering in more tragedy and grief in our communities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: And with Charlotte on edge, city leaders are investigating the circumstances surrounding Tuesday`s shooting of Keith Lamont Scott. Police say that Scott did not heed their calls to drop a gun, and while Scott`s family insists that he wasn`t carrying a firearm, a witness`s photograph obtained by WCNC television appears to show a gun at Scott`s feet moments after the incident. Police verified the gun in the photo is the gun they found at the scene.

Police are also reviewing videos that captured the incident which have not been made public. Police chief Kerr Putney described those videos today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY PUTNEY, CHARLOTTE CHIEF OF POLICE: The video does not give me absolute definitive visual evidence that would confirm that a person is pointing a gun. When taken in the totality of all the other evidence, it supports what we`ve heard and the version of the truth that we gave about the circumstances that happened that led to the death of Mr. Scott.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: And NBC News now confirms the Scott family has seen the video of the shooting -- this just in the last few hours -- but they would not say whether it supports the police account of what happened.

Meanwhile, the officer involved in the Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting of Terence Crutcher was charged late today with first-degree manslaughter.

I`m joined now by Dr. William Barber. He`s the head of the North Carolina state chapter of the NAACP. Reverend Barber, thanks for taking a few minutes.

So the central dispute right now, the central factual dispute between the police in North Carolina -- the police in Charlotte and the family of the man here who was shot involves whether he had that gun. The family said, No, he had a book. The police say -- the police chief is adamant he had a gun.

Based on what you`ve seen, that includes that picture that we just showed, based on what the police chief has said down there, is what the police saying -- is it at least plausible to you that that version could be correct?

REV. WILLIAM BARBER, NORTH CAROLINA NAACP PRESIDENT: Well, I met with more than 50 clergy today, diverse clergy who`ve been involved in the protests - - and 99.9 percent of the protesters have been nonviolent protesters for justice. Those who`ve been violent have been a part of provocateurs. But the unrest is because there`s been no transparency.

What we need is not a military state, but a transparent state. The video could tell this. We understand from the police chief that there were videocameras on -- body cameras that were off. We know that three possible scenarios -- there was a gun, there was not a gun and the gun was planted, and there was something between the officers that caused that.

Number two, there was a gun, but he had a right to carry a gun. You have to understand that North Carolina is an open carry state. You can carry openly. So if he had one, it doesn`t mean he didn`t have a right to carry.

And then the third is that our (ph) man was shot, who brandished it at the police in a violent way. We don`t know which one of those scenarios are true, and the only way we can know that is through full transparency. That is why the clergy and the NAACP are calling for the tapes to be released. They are public documents. They belong to the public. That`s why we have them.

We disagree with our governor, who actually has fostered and passed a bill that goes into effect October 1 that disallows the ability to release tapes.

And we`re calling for an independent investigation, both state and federal. That`s what needs to happen in order to have a sense of trust and transparency in the city of Charlotte.

KORNACKI: The police chief has said his main objection to putting the tape out there is -- he said -- he -- for a -- from the standpoint of the family here, from the standpoint of the family, he said he doesn`t want them to have to relive their worst moment as a family over and over in public. He says that`s what the video would do.

Now, what we know tonight is that the family got an opportunity with their lawyers to view this video. The lawyers would not commit at their press conference this afternoon whether they`d make a statement after that. They haven`t so far.

If the family were to come out now and say, you know, Upon reflection, upon consideration, we would prefer this not to be released, would you go along with that?

BARBER: Well, I don`t think that`s the issue, is would we go along with it. We`ve already heard reports where the lawyers are contradicting what the police chief and the narrative has been giving out. You know, the first day, there was a gunman. Now it`s inconclusive.

The reality is, across America, we know that where there tends to be video and where it`s out, it tends to be a different reaction. In Tulsa, for instance, they had a video. It`s out. They got an indictment. There`s been a very different response.

The reality is, we need to be able to see these videos, we need to know what is happening in this particular situation.

Remember, this is a city where a few years ago, Jonathan Ferrell was killed, a young college student who got in an accident, was asking for help. He was shot unarmed. Later on, the officer was indicted, was prosecuted, but there was a hung jury. And there`s been no attempt to re- try, in fact, folk (ph) have claimed that the jury hung had spoken.

So there`s a lot of distrust. And in this area, where we have all these cell phones and videos and different pictures, we need the evidence to be out there so that there can be some sense of transparency. And we must have independent state and federal investigations.

KORNACKI: And this story obviously reverberating far outside North Carolina politically at the height of this campaign season. The presidential candidates are reacting to the police-involved shootings in Charlotte and Tulsa, as well.

Donald Trump, who yesterday said that the officer responsible for the shooting death of Terence Crutcher might have choked and received pushback after making that statement -- the pushback coming from the police union that endorsed him last week, the Fraternal Order of Police reminding Trump yesterday that, quote, "He must be mindful of the due process rights and presumption of innocence accorded to all, including police officers." Again, that from a union that endorsed Trump.

Trump, who has touted law and order as a theme of his campaign, today reacted to the scenes out of Charlotte with a call for a national anti- crime agenda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: How can we lead when we can`t even control our own cities? Our job is not to make life more comfortable for the violent disrupter, but to make life more comfortable for the African- American parent.

More law enforcement, more community engagement, more effective policing is what our country needs, and we need it quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: Reverend, Donald Trump has said he is trying to reach out to black voters. This is part of that effort. What`s your reaction to what you`re hearing from him this week?

BARBER: Well, there`s so much hypocrisy and insult in what Donald Trump says. Here`s a man who has inflamed racial tension, who has applauded members of his rallies who have actually hit African-Americans. He has joined in this narrative that, somehow, to be against racial injustice and against racism engaged by police is to, in fact, be anti-police, when, in fact, the black community and the white community that is also marching with Black Lives Matter and the NAACP and the Latino are not anti-police, we`re anti-bad police. In fact, good police are anti-bad police because it makes it bad for all good police.

Remember, his campaign started talking about overturning the 14th Amendment. When he reaches out to the black community, he doesn`t say the things in front of the black community he says in front of the white community. For instance, in front of the white community, he questioned the birth of the president. He didn`t do that in front of the black audience.

In front of the white community, he talks about rolling back "Obama care," but in front of the black community, he doesn`t tell them that that means that three million black people will lose their health insurance. In front of the white community, he talks about public education and vouchers. In front of the black community, he doesn`t say that that will lead to more poverty schools and resegregated schools.

So he is exactly the wrong one, based on what he`s done already. And even today, he floated frisking, when in fact frisking has been found -- not frisking, excuse me -- profiling, and stop and frisk, has been found unconstitutional, and not effective.

And so actually, his proposals alone -- we need trust, we need transparency, we need better training, we need more than just discussion about racism, we need racial transformation.

And we need to understand something. This is very simple. That`s why you see black and white people together with these protests. A badge and a gun, the ability to serve a warrant and take a person`s family member out of their house, the ability to use lethal force is too much power for a bigot, for someone that is trigger-happy, and for someone that does not understand that their first role is to protect and serve, not to shoot and kill.

KORNACKI: All right, Reverend William Barber from North Carolina, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.

BARBER: Thank you so much.

KORNACKI: And as the reverend just said, Donald Trump has advocated the controversial policy of stop and frisk in response to the news this week. That policy was put to use by the New York Police Department to search citizens without cause up until the end of the year 2013.

Trump again defended the practice this morning, clarifying that he only wants it implemented in the city of Chicago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: But stop and frisk worked. We had tremendous shootings, numbers of shootings. Now, Chicago is out of control. And I was really referring to Chicago with stop and frisk. If they see a person possibly with a gun, or they think may have a gun, they will see the person, that they`ll look, and they`ll take the gun away. They`ll stop, they`ll frisk, and they`ll take the gun away. And they won`t have anything to shoot with.

How it`s not being used in Chicago is -- to be honest with you, it`s quite unbelievable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: But many have pointed out that stop and frisk didn`t necessarily work as Trump described it. According to a report by the New York state attorney general, only 3 percent of the nearly 2.5 million stops between 2009 and 2012 resulted in actual convictions. The Brennan Center also reported that the end of the policy did not result in a surge in crime.

Furthermore, the practice was not limited to guns. As "The New York Times" pointed out, officers often searched the subjects` pockets for contraband like drugs without any legal grounds for doing so.

And as we`ve reported, the policy disproportionately affected African- Americans and other minorities. Over half of those stopped in 2013 were black. Nearly a third were Hispanic. The judge who overturned the practice called it a policy of indirect racial profiling.

Joined now by A.J. Delgado, senior adviser to the Trump campaign, and former Ohio state senator Nina Turner, who`s an MSNBC political analyst.

So A.J., let`s start with you. Donald Trump introduced the idea of stop and frisk this week. He says now he was only talking about Chicago.

Here`s what I`m curious about, the politics of this. I went back and looked. In New York, when this was a major issue a few years ago, 67 percent of black New Yorkers said they were opposed to this policy. So if you`re Donald Trump, who says he`s out there reaching out to black voters - - this is the policy he proposes. This is not going to help him with black voters, is it?

A.J. DELGADO, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Well, I resent the implication that a law and order candidate or pushing law and order policies is somehow antithetical to the African-American community. On the contrary, they go hand in hand.

(CROSSTALK)

KORNACKI: But A.J., I just -- what I`m asking about -- I`m not making that implication, I`m just giving you the poll numbers.

DELGADO: OK.

KORNACKI: The policy was in place in New York, two thirds of black voters were opposed to it. He says, I want the policy for Chicago now. I`m saying, won`t that hurt him with black voters, since we have polling evidence that it was very unpopular with black voters?

DELGADO: No, I think it was unpopular because they were fed misinformation from the media as far as to how stop and frisk actually worked in the community. When you look at a place like Chicago or Ohio, where Mr. Trump was speaking -- by the way, at an African-American outreach event, which we greatly applaud him for. When you look at a place like Chicago, where they basically stopped using stop and frisk -- the numbers are the police department has decreased its usage by about 80 percent.

I think the African-American community in Chicago, if you would ask them, Are you perhaps in favor of looking at this policy, maybe coming up with a sensible approach around this, some reforms, but using it quite heavily once again, I think we might be surprised to see what they`d say.

It`s time to put an end to the violence there, Steve. And when you see children being shot on the streets, African-American children, who should be safe -- I`d be curious to see how African-Americans would feel about an actual policy proposal, not like Hillary Clinton`s, but one like Donald Trump`s that specifically might actually help the community.

KORNACKI: Well, Nina Turner, let me ask you. Stop and frisk here in New York basically over a generation, you did see a big drop in New York and nationally, too, in violent crime in the `90s. The early 2000s, stop and frisk was in place. Of course, critics of the program say, Hey, it`s been out of existence in the city in a major way in the last few years. The crime rates haven`t spiked.

But you look at what`s going on in Chicago. Could there be some positive from implementing a program like that in terms of the crime rate?

NINA TURNER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Not stop and frisk. And you know, even Mayor de Blasio, when he talked about how crime has gone down in New York over the last three years, it was very clear that that was unconstitutional and it was a racist policy.

We know that, disproportionately, African-Americans and Latino folks were stopped and frisked, as if they are somehow more criminal than somebody else. And what I will say is that if a community speaks up -- the African- American community was polled, and it wasn`t the skewing of the mainstream media, in that they do not like that policy.

Now, Chicago does need some help. There`s no doubt about it. There`s no way for us to spin out of that, that the violence in that city and some of the violence that we see in cities all across this country need to be addressed not when we`re in crisis, but coming to the table together.

But stop and frisk is not the type of policy that should be used to really bring about the peace and trust and accountability that we need in our communities across this country.

KORNACKI: Well, meanwhile today, Donald Trump`s running mate, Mike Pence, said that this country should put an end to the debate about "institutional bias or racism" -- those are his words there -- "within law enforcement" after tragedies like this. Here`s Pence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRES. NOMINEE: Donald Trump and I believe that there`s been far too much of this talk of institutional bias or racism within law enforcement, that -- that police officers are human beings. And in difficult and life-threatening situations, mistakes are made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KORNACKI: A.J., let me ask you about that. When you look at -- we just put the stats up there, the stop and frisk program, how that disproportionately affected African-Americans. We look at these officer- involved shootings, again how they disproportionately, just when you look at the statistics, affect African-Americans. Isn`t race some component of this?

DELGADO: Yes, always there is. But listen, at the end of the day, when you have a policy like stop and frisk, whether it was disproportionately affecting certain communities or certain people look at it that way, let`s take a look at the actual stats. You had hundreds. In just one year alone, in 2014 in New York, I think it was 400 guns were taken off the streets because of stop and frisk. So whether we can get into a debate as to whether it disproportionately impacts racial communities or not, the fact is it does remove crime.

And yes, Pence has a point, but Donald Trump, let`s keep in mind, also said that Tulsa, the officer there, did behave inappropriately. He criticized her. And I don`t think those are mutually exclusive. I think Pence is absolutely correct that we need to stop this talk of institutional racism in our police departments.

TURNER: Oh, my goodness.

DELGADO: Many of these brave officers like the one in Charlotte are African-American themselves.

KORNACKI: Nina Turner?

TURNER: Steve, just -- listen, institutional racism exists in this country. African-American community is not delusional about this. What is happening in Charlotte is not just about Charlotte, it`s about Tulsa, it`s about Cleveland, it`s about Baltimore, it`s about Ferguson. It is about the fact that racism exists in the DNA of America, and the only way that we`re going to deal with is to confess our sins. It didn`t start with police and it doesn`t end with police. It is the entire system.

And as an African-American mother of an African-American son who is a law enforcement officer, who has been racially profiled throughout his life, who does wear a badge and a gun, who I do worry about on both ends, let me just tell you this. We have to deal with these issues in a very real way, and the African-American community is sick and tired of this same sad song being played over and over and over and over again.

And just like novelist James Baldwin and activist James Baldwin said -- he said to be black in America and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage all the time.

And when we have leaders who don`t even want to acknowledge that we have institutional racism in this country, political, economic, financial -- we have to admit that and we have to do something about it.

And all communities need the police, but we need transparency, we need accountability, we need trust. And they are not mutually exclusive, but it is OK for the African-American community to call foul. And that is what we are doing all across this country.

And we`re sick and tired of the same old song being played over and over again, yet in the wake of all of this, there are dead black men and dead black women in this country. They hold up their hands, they die. They on the ground, they die. We got to stop it and stop it right now!

And I`m going to tell you another thing, Steve. We ain`t got to wait for presidential candidates. We need governors and mayors, people on city councils and state legislators right now to use the power of public policy to change this right now!

KORNACKI: All right, Nina Turner...

DELGADO: And that`s why Donald Trump is in Toledo!

KORNACKI: ... and A.J. Delgado, I got to leave it there. Thank you for the time, though. We appreciate it.

DELGADO: Thank you.

KORNACKI: And Coming up -- just four days to go now until that first presidential debate, and new poll numbers providing a clear picture about where this race stands right now. We have got the numbers and a preview of what to expect Monday night when Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off for the very first time.

Plus, back to our top story of the night. We are going to go back to the ground in Charlotte, North Carolina, for what could be another tense night there.

And New Jersey governor Chris Christie is trying to shore up his political legacy. It has come under threat from the ongoing "bridge-gate" scandal, and the promise this week by a prosecutor who says the governor knew about the lane closures on the George Washington Bridge as they were happening. That is something that Christie has long denied.

And finally, the HARDBALL roundtable will be here. They`re going to tell me three things about this presidential race that I don`t know.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: Donald Trump is on stage at a campaign event in suburban Philadelphia right now. He`s been pushing hard to flip the state of Pennsylvania.

We have new polling that shows how this race stands with just four days to go now until the first presidential debate.

Right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KORNACKI: And welcome back to HARDBALL.

We`re just four days away now from the first presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. So, we figured, let`s take a look at where the presidential race stands heading into that debate. So, here we are at the big board.

What we thought we would show you is this. Look, the national polls that came out this week were very good news for Hillary Clinton. She seems to have the lead nationally. She has an advantage right now in that race to 270, the Electoral College fight. So, Trump is sort of playing from behind in this race.

If you`re Donald Trump, what is your path to victory at this point? What would it take to catch Hillary Clinton, overtake her, and cross 270?

We want to give you a sense of what he is up against and what kind of advantage Hillary Clinton is sitting on right now heading into that debate.

So, what you see right here, we`re kind of penciling in Clinton with 262, Trump with 206 at this moment. This would be the Trump path. Here`s what he needs to do. First, every state that`s red right now, this is a Romney state from 2012. This is a red state. The first thing Donald Trump has to do is he has to lock down the red states, win all the Romney states.

Now, there`s one big if there. That`s North Carolina. The race is basically dead even there right now. It`s a big if. But Donald Trump, if he has a path to 270, he has got to hold onto North Carolina. That is the first step for Trump.

Then, if he can do that, he`s got to make inroads into blue America, into blue states that Obama won in 2012, that Obama won in 2008. And so what you`re seeing here, the states that are sort of gray on your map right now, these are probably the best-shot blue states for Donald Trump, if he`s got a path.

So, bear with me here. Take a look at how this would work.

Donald Trump -- first, look at the state of Ohio. The polling average there right now actually has Donald Trump ahead. Again, this is a state Barack Obama won twice, but, right now, Donald Trump is leading in the polling there. So, if he can get that, you see that would put him on his way, a little bit closer.

Where else can he look right now? Well, how about down to the state of Florida? Obviously, always an important state. The poll average is dead even right now, Trump not ahead, but certainly he`s got a shot in Florida. So, if you`re Donald Trump, you have got to win Florida, too. That gets you a little bit closer.

Where else can Donald Trump look? Well, how about Wisconsin? This is a bit of a surprise. A lot of talk about Pennsylvania. I think Wisconsin now has replaced Pennsylvania as the next big target for the Trump campaign.

You see, in the average there, he`s down close to five points, but the more recent polling -- we had one come out just yesterday from the gold standard pollster in that state that put him at three points. Donald Trump has been making more progress in Wisconsin than he has been in Pennsylvania.

So the challenge for Trump -- and this is a big challenge -- I cannot overstate that -- a big challenge for Trump is, he`s got to get ahead in Wisconsin. But, if he could do that, look, that would move him to 263. He`s getting really close here.

Take a look up at the state of Maine. Now, why is it sort of funny-looking like this? It`s because they give out their electoral votes in a weird way there, one of only two states that does this. You get two for winning the state, but also if you win a congressional district in the state, you get the vote for it.

Well, guess what? Donald Trump looks like he has a pretty big advantage in the rural district there in Western Maine, so Trump very well could get an electoral vote out of Maine. And if he does that, 264, well, take a look at Iowa. He`s actually ahead in the polls in Iowa right now. What is Iowa worth? It`s worth six electoral votes. That would be 270.

How about Nevada? He`s actually ahead in the polls out in Nevada right now, the most recent ones. That would be 276. So, you see Donald Trump`s path. It`s Florida, it`s Ohio, it`s probably Wisconsin, it`s that vote in Maine. And if he can do that, then get either Iowa or Nevada or both, if you could, and he could hit 270. He could be over that number, again, a lot of big ifs in here, if he can hold the red states, if he could flip Wisconsin.

But there is a path for Donald Trump right now. If there is, that`s what it looks like.

Joining me now to talk more about the state of this race heading into that big presidential debate Monday, we have got Steve McMahon. He`s a Democratic strategist. And John Feehery, a Republican strategist.

So, Steve McMahon, let me start with you. In terms of Hillary Clinton`s campaign, as we said, they got good news in the national polls this week. We have got her up six in our NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll. The Survey Monkey online poll put her lead at five points. How good should the Clinton campaign feel right now, vs. how worried should they be heading into this debate?

STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think they should feel really good for a couple of reasons.

First of all, national polls tend to be kind of the leading edge, and state polls tend to be the trailing indicator. And you see her actually opening up her lead. The race is probably a structural five-point race, a five- point advantage for Hillary Clinton or a Democrat.

You said it at the beginning. She starts off with 242 Electoral College votes. I don`t think Donald Trump is going to do something that nobody since that -- that nobody since -- it hasn`t happened since 1984, and that`s win Wisconsin. So, I think they should be feeling really good about where they are right now.

KORNACKI: Yes, I mean, John Feehery, my takeaway, when I sort of go through that exercise, is Donald Trump needs a push here.

He`s got himself competitive, but he needs something that`s going to move votes, especially in a state like Wisconsin. I guess a debate could do that.

Do you think he`s capable of getting the kind of performance, the kind of moment in this debate on Monday night that could do that?

JOHN FEEHERY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, listen, if you look at this debate, you see that Donald Trump has to exceed the soft glow of low expectations, because no one expects him to do that well.

And I think he`s going to exceed those low expectations. So, I think I will give him a bump. The other thing he`s got to do, he`s got to appear presidential in his tone and temperament. And that`s going to be a big challenge for him.

You saw the last debates, the Republican debates. He really went after Jeb Bush. He really went after Marco Rubio. And he can`t do that with Hillary Clinton. If he tries to be that aggressive with Hillary Clinton, I think it`s going to backfire. Tone and temperament is so important for Donald Trump in this upcoming debate.

KORNACKI: Yes. Can he do -- the other thing in these primary debates, he had 10 candidates on stage. You had commercial breaks.

Donald Trump would get about a two-minute burst of attention and then disappear for 20 minutes. I mean -- I mean this seriously, because this is not a guy who talks about policy that much. Does he have 90 minutes of material to go through that`s not going to get him into trouble?

FEEHERY: Well, that`s the big question.

I think he does, but, you know what? He`s going to have to be an expert at the filibuster and find ways to have his big, big ideas spoke in big sentences that take a lot of time.

KORNACKI: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

KORNACKI: Steve McMahon, I also -- I was talking to somebody today. We were thinking back to the 2000 debates, Bush vs. Gore.

And the one thing that seemed to work in Bush`s favor there, besides Al Gore sighing, was the expectations game. Going into that, it was seen as a big mismatch. Gore was this world-class debater. Bush had trouble getting the sentences straight sometimes. The expectations game worked in Bush`s favor.

Is that something Trump has to rely on here?

MCMAHON: Well, I think John`s right. I think the expectations are very low for Donald Trump, and probably they shouldn`t be, because, as we all know, he`s quite a showman.

I do, though, think it is going to be difficult for him to hold his temper. Hillary Clinton is not going to be an easy debate opponent. Donald Trump will get frustrated. He probably will overreact.

And if he does, I think that`s a danger, not only because it shows his temperament is not suitable to president, but also because, when you`re doing that in a debate against a female candidate, it`s more of a challenge than if you`re doing it to Jeb Bush or somebody else.

So, I think he`s got to walk a tightrope here. I think expectations for him are low. If his tone and temperament are right, that may be a win for him, but he does have to talk for at least 45 minutes. And if I were Hillary Clinton, I just might let him talk for more, because the more Donald Trump talks, the more trouble he gets into, and the better it is for the Hillary Clinton campaign.

KORNACKI: Does she come with a plan, though? Does she come with a game plan to try to provoke him?

And are there any risks if that`s her strategy? If she has got some lines of attack that are designed to get some kind of reaction from him, is there a risk there for her in doing that?

MCMAHON: Well, I don`t think so, because she`s a very, very -- the one thing about Hillary Clinton is, she is steely and she is tough. And I`m sure she`s going to come with some stilettos to plant in his ribs, and I`m sure they`re going to be planted there.

And the question for Donald Trump is, how does he react? Does he react in a way that`s presidential or does he overreact? I think he will overreact, like he`s always done before. And when he does, I think Hillary Clinton will pounce.

FEEHERY: Well, we will see, Steve.

And let me just say real quick, I think the expectations for Hillary are really through the roof. People expect her to win this debate. The problem for Hillary is, she kind of retreats into her big policy books. She doesn`t speak to the American people. She speaks to the inside-the- Beltway crowd.

And that`s a danger for her, because Donald Trump speaks to the wider audience. He doesn`t get into deep policy discussions. And for Hillary, she also has a stamina problem. Is she going to be able to handle, you know, with the frustration of dealing with a Donald Trump who doesn`t really answer her questions, doesn`t really play by her playbook?

And you`re never quite sure what Donald Trump is going to come up with. Can she handle that? Does she have the stamina to handle dealing with Donald Trump for 90 minutes?

KORNACKI: All right, John Feehery, Steve McMahon, again, four days away until that big first debate.

Thanks to both of you for joining us for a bit of a preview there.

MCMAHON: Thank you.

KORNACKI: And up next, we`re bracing for more unrest potentially in Charlotte, North Carolina. Tonight, the city remains in a state of emergency. We are going to go live there on the ground. We will talk to a reporter with the latest developments.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. PAT MCCRORY (R), NORTH CAROLINA: I want to let you know, first of all, this. As governor, I firmly believe that we cannot tolerate any types of violence directed towards citizens or any type of destruction of property.

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KORNACKI: And welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory earlier today warning against violence in Charlotte.

Night has fallen now in downtown Charlotte after a second night of violent protests last night. And right now, pastors are holding a vigil, but the city remains in a state of emergency, as the National Guard is in Charlotte tonight.

The family of Keith Lamont Scott -- he is the man who was shot to death on Tuesday by police -- has called on protesters to remain peaceful.

For more on what`s happening on the ground, let`s turn to Wes Lowery of "The Washington Post." He joins me now from Charlotte.

So, Wes, we saw what happened obviously the last two nights. What is the sense down there tonight in terms of, will things be different, or are they bracing for more of the same? WESLEY LOWERY, "THE WASHINGTON POST": So, they`re certainly bracing for more of the same.

Now, this is that hurry-up-and-wait time, right? We`re in the early evening. It`s not really dark outside yet. And what we have seen in city after city, whether it`s Ferguson, whether it`s Baltimore, Milwaukee, Baton Rouge, is that the element of these protest demonstrations in the aftermath of a fatal police shooting changes very rapidly once you go from daytime to the evening and then the late evening.

And so, right now, what we know is, we have got groups of demonstrators beginning to gather in a public park. As you noted, there are currently ministers kind of gathering in a prayer vigil. But what we assume will happen is that, as nightfall comes, those crowds will start to change a little bit.

And they likely will move back into downtown. And that will be the question of what exactly happens. The state police, the National Guard, as well as local police, have started setting up some barricades. They`re kind of out in force, with the hope that they can kind of preemptively detour any, you know, potential damage or destruction.

But, you know, in a lot of ways, it`s a hurry up and wait. We will see what happens tonight.

KORNACKI: Boy, and just folks at home can see here on the left side of the screen, what you`re looking at are some aerial shots of downtown Charlotte. That`s the park. We`re zooming out right now. We had just zoomed in a second ago.

That`s the park where the protesters are gathered right now. Again, it`s a peaceful vigil being led by some pastors at this moment, again, taking a sort of wide aerial view there of downtown Charlotte.

Wes, just give us a sense, too. I think when we see something like what happened last night, watching this live, the scale here in terms of how many, roughly, the people there do you think are peaceful protesters, vs. how many are this other element that shows up? What`s the balance like?

LOWERY: Of course, I mean, the typical experience, and my understanding from what`s been happening here in Charlotte, it`s not unlike many of the other times when we have seen this type of physical, violent unrest in places, right, where you have a large element, your primary element of people who have shown up to peacefully demonstrate, now, angry people, traumatized people, upset people, but the vast majority of them, if there are 1,000 people, you`re talking about hundreds of people who are there peacefully.

And then, at some point in the night, there starts to be a turn. Whether that be some of your older folks and families start going home. Perhaps more teenagers start emerging and coming into the streets. You start to see a different element appear.

And you start to see the anger start to -- you know, start to really kind of caramelize in that way. And that`s very often when the violence begins. And the violence can -- and violence can be very relative. It can start with a water bottle being thrown at a police officer or a rock being thrown at a police officer, and then escalate, because what we have seen in so many examples, in so many cases that you start to develop a bit of a mob mentality when you have that many people out there who are that angry.

And then you have the police, who at times do things that may escalate it, whether that be firing tear gas or rubber bullets.

KORNACKI: All right, Wesley Lowery from "The Washington Post" down in Charlotte, thanks for the time.

LOWERY: Any time, Steve.

KORNACKI: All right.

And coming up: the unrest in Charlotte coming just days before that first presidential debate, putting the issue of race front and center in the presidential race. The HARDBALL roundtable is coming up here with what we can expect to see from Trump and Clinton on Monday night.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

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KORNACKI: All right. We`re back.

And for more now on what we can expect at Monday`s big first debate, let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable. Nick Confessore is a reporter with "The New York Times," Beth Fouhy is senior editor at MSNBC and NBC News, and Raul Reyes is an NBCNews.com contributor.

So, talking about this a little bit earlier.

Beth, finish this sentence. It is a good night for Hillary Clinton on Monday night if --

BETH FOUHY, SENIOR EDITOR AT MSNBC AND NBC NEWS: Oh, great question.

KORNACKI: Trying to phrase the same question I ask all the time differently.

FOUHY: If Donald Trump fails to be compelling as a potential commander in chief, if he does not meet that test.

KORNACKI: And in terms of meeting that test, Nick, what does he have to do?

NICK CONFESSORE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: The bar for him is incredibly low, unfortunately for Hillary Clinton. I think the image of him as a buffoon and someone as erratic is so baked in the public consciousness, that if you`re an undecided voter that`s coming in for the first time to really focus, and he can get through 90 minutes basically playing against type a little bit, seeming like he could potentially fill that chair in the Oval Office, it is kind of a win for him in terms of the voters he has to get.

KORNACKI: What does that mean, practically? Does that mean he has to avoid say something inflammatory? Is it just he has to complete a 90- second answer without -- I mean, what does that look like?

CONFESSORE: Speak in complete sentences usually helps. I think he has to try avoid getting knocked around by the moderator in an obvious lie. It`s going to be hard for him. He says them all the time. He has to look and sound like he knows a little bit about his ideas and his policies.

Again, his policies are kind of deeply developed. But I do think that people know he`s not a polished politician and know he doesn`t have deep, sophisticated policy ideas. He`ll never be as good as Hillary Clinton on those terms.

The question is, if he`s somebody who`s a like wild card, is he not too much of a wild card?

KORNACKI: Raul, what do you make of that? Is the bar so low that Donald Trump can clear this thing with an average performance?

RAUL REYES, NBCNEWS.COM CONTRIBUTOR: Actually agree. The bar extremely low for him. I think his only challenge, though, is he has never had this type of format for an hour and a half, no commercials, no breaks.

You know, think about his performance in the Republican debates. He was there with so many other competitors and there was always a time pressure. He could stall or deflect and then they would go to a commercial. Hillary Clinton, after given 11 hours of testimony to Congress, an hour and a half is nothing. I think she does great with long-format answers.

I think for Trump, the challenge will be that he will not be able to deflect, he will not be able to run out the clock and just staying on message. I think many people who have followed him and observed him say he seems to have some type of attention-definite disorder thing going on, he likes to jump around. It will be very hard for him I think to stay on point.

And that`s one thing that I think, aside from the policies could strike many people to be presidential, the inability to stay focused and concentrate and have a one-on-one dialogue, and to avoid bullying or insulting a female candidate, who is making history.

KORNACKI: And that plays differently, doesn`t it, Beth? I remember in the primaries, when he went after Jeb Bush, now you`re low-energy Jeb, and, you know, he`s shushing him and all these things. It played a certain way with voters.

I also remember when he started giving Carly Fiorina a bit of that same treatment going after her physical treatment, it played very differently.

FOUHY: Right. Well, and we all know that he likes to give nicknames to different candidate, different opponents. He had, you know, little Marco, and low-energy Jeb. He`s been calling us, as we all know at this table, we get e-mails from the Trump campaign every day, crooked Hillary.

KORNACKI: Can he say that on the debate stage?

FOUHY: Well, that`s the big question. We`re all debating whether he brings that to the debate and what effect that will have. Because as Raul said, she`s making history. She is the first woman major party nominee for president.

If he comes off at all as sexist towards her, belittling, crooked Hillary, that`s really going into territory he may not want to --

CONFESSORE: And the question is, like, how invested are voters today actually in the politics in the traditional presidential debate? How much do they really want to see that? This is not a year where people are really excited about that traditional kind of format or candidate. That`s the question mark for me.

REYES: And not only that, but I think Trump runs a big risk picking up on your point. I think almost any professional woman in America can relate. Whatever the political affiliation, can relate to the experience of being in a situation, where she is belittled or the victim of some type of micro- aggression by a male superior, who she views as an equal, but who is treating her in a way, just based on her gender. And I think Trump, that`s one reason why he has a problem with female voters.

I think he could really run it into the ground if he insults Hillary to her face. If he comes across as (INAUDIBLE). It`s a huge risk.

KORNACKI: I`m even remembering 2008, Barack Obama in that full-time thing before New Hampshire. It`s probably the worst moment for Obama in the primaries, when he said to Hillary Clinton, you`re likable enough.

Remember what happened? That was the Saturday night before the primary, and Obama was way ahead in the polls. Clinton seemed dead coming out of Iowa. Nobody could figure it out. A couple days later, she wins New Hampshire, no poll picked up on it.

A lot of people bet, though, looked at that moment and said, that created - - and it may not have just been women, but that created sympathy. She seemed like the underdog being picked on.

FOUHY: Well, the polls did show that women had come back to her in New Hampshire after they had abandoned in her Iowa. And we`ll never know if it was that momentum that you described, is the thing that changed them and brought them back to Hillary Clinton that time.

But, yes, it`s a huge risk to look sexist, but the other thing going on, and it`s a problem for Hillary, she`s also seen by so many people at this point as a Clinton. She`s part of that Democratic power couple who`s been around for 25 years. Whether you love them or hate them, they`re baked into your brain. And there are enough people there who just see her as part of sort of establishment politics, part of a dynasty that everybody -- many people may be ready to get rid of.

Out at Trump`s rallies, there are people in the audience every day saying, lock her up, lock her up. There`s so much emotion around Hillary Clinton, both bad and good. That`s what she`s walking into.

KORNACKI: Should she have -- Nick, should she come in armed with lines that are designed to provoke him? Should that be part of the game plan, or should they just count on that being something that`s spontaneous? They get lucky if he slips up and says something inflammatory that seems over the line.

CONFESSORE: I`m sure it`s part of the game plan. It should look spontaneous, right?

KORNACKI: Can you pull that off?

CONFESSORE: I think actually her secret weapon, her most effective approach in this situation is what I call snarky grandma. And we`ve seen her deploy it before. She`s incredibly good at it -- a low-key sarcasm, a slight undermining of the overbearing guy at the other end of the stage. I`ve seen her do it time and time again in these debates. She`s very good at it and I think it will get under his skin.

He does not have a great emotional toolbox for dealing with that kind of humor. And she can deploy it very, very well. I`ve seen her do it. If she can do it on this debate stage, it will help her a lot.

KORNACKI: Where is she weakest, most vulnerable in a setting like this?

REYES: In a setting like this, I think Trump`s -- whatever you think of him, I think it`s safe to describe him as erratic. I think her weakness is Trump`s sheer unpredictability and the fact that he could come out, if he`s feeling and acting on impulse as he often does with some time of incredible insult or bringing up something related to, for example, Bill Clinton`s affairs and indiscretions in the past. How does she respond to that?

And even though certainly she is the queen of preparation, she has worked out these scenarios in advance and role played them and done all that, there`s still no way to always be on it in the moment, and especially nowadays in the world of social media, we have to remember what might play well in the room plays so differently in the national press, plays so differently on social media and also among viewers at home.

So I think she`s juggling a few things at different levels, but he`s -- to me, although he`s so unprepared, he is a very difficult person to be debating against because you don`t know who you`re going to get.

KORNACKI: Yes, it`s like watching a football game. The best seat is actually in your living room watching it. Exciting to be in the hall, but you don`t see what everybody else is seeing.

Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us.

Up next, these people are going to tell me something I don`t know. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

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KORNACKI: All right. Again, the countdown is on. We are just four days away from the first presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. And you can watch it right here live Monday night on MSNBC. Chris Matthews is going to be joined by Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow for complete coverage. That`s going to start at 7:00 Eastern on Monday.

And then, of course, the main event, Lester Holt will moderate the debate. That will begin at 9:00 Eastern Time. And Chris will be back with postgame analysis. All of this coming up Monday night.

And also catch a special edition of HARDBALL on Sunday night. That`s going to be at 8:00 Eastern, as we get ready for debate night.

We`ll be right back.

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KORNACKI: All right. We are back with the HARDBALL roundtable. This is where they get the easiest job in the world.

Nick, tell me something I don`t know.

CONFESSORE: All right. The Trump cafe in Trump tower is doing a brisk business with the GOP, according to campaign filing reports. The GOP spent over $1,000 there, in recent weeks, which is enough for 74 taco bowls as we calculated.

KORNACKI: We know he`s fond of those.

Beth Fouhy?

FOUHY: Back to the debate, September 26th, our debate on Monday night, first debate of this presidential year. Also the 56th anniversary of the first Kennedy/Nixon debate in 1960.

KORNACKI: There you go. Perfect historical bit there.

And, Raul?

REYES: If you`re looking for a job, Donald Trump is hiring. The bad news is he`s only hiring foreign workers. His -- one of his resorts in Florida just has a hiring post out for foreign workers to come and work in the resorts down there.

The strange thing about it, not just to point out his hypocrisy in bringing in guest workers, is that he`s doing it in Florida. This is something the Clinton campaign is going to pounce upon, probably cut an ad in Florida. And it just speaks to the disorganization in his campaign that they`re doing this right now.

They could wait two months. He is literally bringing in foreign workers right now.

KORNACKI: All right. Raul Reyes, Beth Fouhy, Nick Confessore, thanks for joining us.

We`ll be right back after this.

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KORNACKI: All right. That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END