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Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript, 6/29/2016

Guests: John Feehery, Steve McMahon, Annie Linskey, Ken Vogel, Jennifer Jacobs, Sherrod Brown

Show: HARDBALL Date: June 29, 2016 Guest: John Feehery, Steve McMahon, Annie Linskey, Ken Vogel, Jennifer Jacobs, Sherrod Brown


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in my home town of Philadelphia, a city getting fired up to nominate Hillary Clinton for president of the United States.

Well, tonight, the double-barreled threats to this country and to our leaders are clear and present -- a terrorism that stalks us in the headlines, the loss of economic livelihood that undercuts the American dream, that drives children from their home town, searching for something better than mere survival.

Donald Trump is out there today for all to hear, offering to meet the terrorist threat with an "eye for an eye" message, promising to ditch Clinton-promised -- or Clinton-passed trade policies in favor of a tough new economic nationalism.

Bernie Sanders, still very much in the fight, now warns that unless Democrats also put up their economic dukes, Trump is headed for an historic electoral upset. In other words, if the party of FDR, Harry Truman and Jack Kennedy doesn`t have enough fight for this battle, the economic nationalist running as a Republican will.

And so we see the table set. Nobody in his right mind right now is going to be out there this hot summer standing for complacency, defending the way things are politically. The battle will go to the party, the person, the "kick them in the butt" message that rings true in a dangerous time.

And nobody believes we can beat terrorism by hunkering down and waiting it out. Nobody believes we can save and grow real American jobs with another string of trade deals signed by people in white shirts, bright ties and smiles.

These are tough times for a country looking for tough leaders. Is it Trump? Is it Hillary? Or is it someone else waiting to come forth with a message and a conviction that takes our breath away?

And with that, we go to the hard news just in. Donald Trump hit the themes of trade and terror in his speech up in Maine today. Let`s watch.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I want to terminate the deal and do a good deal. And that`s all I want. I want to bring jobs back to our country. I want to bring money back to our country. (INAUDIBLE) we`re going to lose a trade war? We`re already losing the trade war, folks!

She hasn`t done anything about what`s going on, all right? ISIS was formed during her tenure. ISIS is now worse than ever. ISIS is looking strong. ISIS is signing up people over the internet. They know how to use the Internet better than we do. And we do nothing about anything. They`re taking our youth...


MATTHEWS: NBC`s Hallie Jackson`s up in Bangor, Maine. Hallie, it seems like the Trump line of attack is clear. He`s the one ready to bring fire back to those stealing our jobs, those threatening us with terrorism. Hillary is the status quo. He`s saying it so clearly. She`s the candidate of the current trade deals like NAFTA and TPP because she was for it before, and also, she`s the one who has to defend the existence, I suppose, because she`s a Democrat, of ISIS.

He is clearly saying, I`m the change. She`s the way things are.

HALLIE JACKSON, NBC CORRESPONDENT: He`s about as explicit as anybody can be, when he gets on the campaign trail, Chris, and when he delivers those policy speeches that we`ve seen him do a couple of times in the last week, reading off the teleprompter, staying on script. That is his message. He is change. She is status quo.

It seems to be resonating, or at least he hopes it will, with people like the ones here in and around Bangor, Maine. Obviously, it`s a blue state, nor really a battleground. It hasn`t gone Republican since 1988, but Trump hoping to peel away at least one electoral vote here.

His message has been resounding. He`s the one who can renegotiate some of these bad trade deals, in his view, and he`s the one who can be toughest on terror, trying to essentially...


JACKSON: ... out-tough Hillary Clinton and...


MATTHEWS: OK, great. Is he back -- is he back on -- is he back to the solid stuff, like economic nationalism, whether it`s trade or it`s terrorism, but basically, economic nationalism, patriotism, if you will, in a rough way? Is he back on that course and away from bashing people ethnically, like he was doing a couple weeks ago with that judge he called a Mexican?

JACKSON: He hasn`t stepped into hot water since then, Chris, but he has not shied away from it, either. We were on the phone earlier this week, myself and Donald Trump, and he again re-upped (ph) that nickname that a lot of people find offensive for Elizabeth Warren, "Pocahontas," calling her the rapist (ph).

On the campaign trail, he`s mostly stayed on this on sort of it, as you called it, nationalist message, really trying to hit Hillary Clinton hard, hitting some of his former rivals in the GOP, too, by the way, saying that if they don`t endorse him, they shouldn`t be allowed to run for public office.

But his supporters, his surrogates, haven`t seemed to have gotten the message. He was introduced by Howie Carr here in Maine tonight. Carr, talking about Warren...


JACKSON: ... made (INAUDIBLE) sort of "war whoop" motion with his hand in his mouth, and it was echoed by some in the audience.

MATTHEWS: Yes, he`s the guy that went after her, saying she doesn`t look "Sioux-ish." That was his joke. Howie Carr, of course, a columnist for "The Boston Herald." He`s already played that ethnic game before, going after her, not with "Pocahontas," but with the other line of attack on her saying that she had some native American roots.

Anyway, Hallie Jackson up in Maine, it`s great to have you back on the show.

Donald Trump went after the Chamber of Commerce in his speech today, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Let`s watch that.


TRUMP: But here`s what -- because, you know, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is totally controlled by the special interest groups, folks, just so you understand it. And they`re a special interest that want to have the deals that they want to have. They want to have TPP, Trans Pacific Partnership, one of the worst deals -- it`ll be the worst deal since NAFTA.


TRUMP: No, it`ll be a worse -- it`ll drain the rest of your businesses out of Maine, believe me. It`ll be the worst deal since NAFTA.


MATTHEWS: Let me bring in now two strategists for more, Republican John Feehery, of course, and Democrat Steve McMahon.

John, you first. This is an interesting development now. You`ve got two outsiders, Bernie Sanders still in the field right now, at least for a while, saying that Hillary Clinton and the Democrats better get their act together because Donald Trump`s steal their lunch if they don`t move on the issue of economic nationalism and trade deals.

On the other hand, you`ve got Trump out there selling it out there harder than ever. I think it`s his strong suit, kicking the butt out of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which is fair with me because he makes some good points with who those guys look out for.

I think his populist message -- if he gets away from the ethnic crap -- and there`s no better word for it, going after people because of their parents` ethnic back grounds -- and gets back to this economic message -- I think he gets back onto the Brexit vote, he starts to exploit the same feelings that a lot of those Brits had when they voted to get out of Europe. Your thoughts.

JOHN FEEHERY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, listen, trump`s message is very, very powerful politically. Sixty percent of Republican voters do not like these trade deals. They don`t like the open trade. They don`t like free trade. They want to do something different. And so it`s very politically popular.

From a policy perspective -- I think this is what a lot of the Republican leaders are worried about -- is it probably doesn`t work very well. You don`t want to go into protectionism because it will actually...


FEEHERY: ... slow down the economy and more people lose their jobs. I mean, we do have unemployment at 4.7 percent, so we`re not going completely down the tubes.

MATTHEWS: What do you say to the guy up in Scranton or Eerie, where they see all their friends have left town. The only people left are working in judgeships or lawyers or doctors. Except for the professions, there`s no jobs in those towns anymore. People have left -- and people aren`t from those parts of the country anymore. They`re not there anymore.

I mean, I wonder whether Trump is the only guy -- and of course, Bernie Sanders. Let`s be fair. Bernie Sanders talks to those people, but I don`t think he quite gets the economic -- or rather, the nationalist piece of this, the idea, We Americans are not being looked out for. He`s more of an international theorist or philosopher, socialist, he calls himself, rather than a guy saying, You know, America is getting screwed around here. Our country`s getting screwed around. I`m getting shoved around. We got to shove back.

FEEHERY: Well, I think that -- I think that`s right, Chris. And I also think if you talk about, for example, the steel industry -- I mean, China is dumping steel all over the world and it`s putting Americans out of work and has been for quite a while. And if we don`t do something about -- about that, our steel industry`s going to go down the tubes.

So Trump has got that message exactly for those people in Pennsylvania, in Ohio, in Michigan, who really rely on the steel industry, Indiana. You know, so I think that that message politically works very well for him.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about the other barrel of his attack going (INAUDIBLE) Trump, and then we`ll get the Democrats` response here. Yesterday, Donald Trump said we should wage a more vicious campaign against the terror groups. Let`s watch.


TRUMP: We have to be so strong. We have to fight so viciously and violently because we`re dealing with violent people, vicious people!


TRUMP: And you know, we have laws to uphold. We have laws. They don`t have laws! So we can`t do waterboarding, but they can do chopping off heads, drowning people in steel cages. They can do whatever they want to do.

And you know, they eat dinner like us. Can you imagine them sitting around the table, or wherever they`re eating their dinner, talking about the Americans don`t do waterboarding and yet we chop off heads. They probably think we`re weak, we`re stupid, we don`t know what we`re doing. We have no leadership. You know, you have to fight fire with fire.


MATTHEWS: You know -- you know, definitely, Steve -- and you and I talk the same way when we`re off the air. You know how regular people talk. Trump, whatever you think of him -- and a lot of I know people don`t like him at all, and there`s good reason not to -- he talks like a regular guy. He doesn`t talk like he`s at the Brookings Institution or the Council for Foreign Relations. He talks in the English language of Americans.

And when he talks about the enemy sitting around laughing at us because we`re not as tough as they are -- whether they do it or not, and he has no idea what they`re talking about at the dinner table in Kabul or in Istanbul or anywhere else. He doesn`t know what -- but it sounds like a guy on route 40 in some place where they sell chops (ph) and it says "Cocktails" in the window and they`re drinking beer at the bar. This is the way people talk. And he`s talking like that.

How`s Hillary respond to that? How do Democrats catch up to that kind of American identity, angry at the world for causing us to be scared? People don`t like being scared.

STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You know, you`re absolutely right, Chris. And generally, this is a debate that occurs inside the Democratic Party usually in primaries, where you have people -- like a long, long time ago, when I worked for Dick Gephardt -- you know, he was somebody who was - - who was raising -- raising his fist against the unfair trade deals against...


MCMAHON: ... middle class and union jobs being run out of this country. And generally, that`s a conversation that occurs inside the Democratic Party.

Here you`ve got kind of a role reversal. Hillary Clinton is playing the role of a president. She`s being reasoned, restrained, rational, all the things that you want a leader to be.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump is giving voice to the emotions and the vengeance that so many people feel and the frustration that many people feel on the terrorism side that we seem to be not making very much progress, even though, if you look at it rationally, it may be the case that we`ve -- we`ve -- - we`ve taking out so many of their leaders that this is kind of...

MATTHEWS: Have we been...

MCMAHON: ... all they`ve got left.

MATTHEWS: ... too sophisticated?

MCMAHON: Well...

MATTHEWS: I`m going to ask you, Steve. You`re as smart as I am. Have we been too sophisticated and saying, you know, we learned in grad school that trade was good...


MATTHEWS: ... you know, that we should buy cheap stuff from countries that can make it cheaper because the people work for less. But when you come down to it, what happens when our guys and women coming out of high school with -- with (INAUDIBLE) people looking for jobs. There aren`t any jobs. The jobs were somewhere else because we were so sophisticated, we say, Well, let the people make steel who make it cheaper.

Well, then we don`t have any more steel workers.

MCMAHON: Yes. Well, you know...

MATTHEWS: You know, we did that with shoes. We did it with textiles. We said, Oh, we don`t make shoes anymore. They make them in Britain. They make them in Italy. OK, then we don`t make textiles. They make them in the South. Now they make them in China or Indonesia, or they make them somewhere else. We don`t make anything anymore.

Well, how do people get jobs making things then, if we don`t make them here? I mean, I think we may have gotten very sophisticated. Trump`s saying, Let`s not go past eighth grade on this. Let`s not go to grad school.

MCMAHON: We`ve been...

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk the way regular people went to high school talk.

MCMAHON: We`ve been very sophisticated...

MATTHEWS: I`m thinking about this.

MCMAHON: We`ve been very fancy, but at the end of the day, America has a choice to make because, you know, you can get shoes made for 65 cents an hour instead of paying someone in a union to do in it Maine or someplace where they used to make shoes.

But the reason did you that before was because you valued a middle class and you wanted to create middle class where people who made shoes could buy two cars and a home and send their kids to college and maybe take a vacation in the summertime.

We don`t seem to have that or value that as much anymore. And so the manufacturing jobs have left. The union jobs have left. The manufacturing jobs that are left now don`t pay 28 or 30 or 40 bucks an hour like they used to, which could sustain a middle class. They pay $6, $8, $10 an hour. And that`s a judgment that society has made, or allowed to be made for it, that Donald Trump is actually tapping into I think very effectively. Bernie Sanders did it...

FEEHERY: Chris -- Chris...

MCMAHON: ... and you`re going to -- I`m sorry.

FEEHERY: Can I jump in real quick just to say I agree with what Steve`s saying. Through the last 20 years, when I worked on the Hill, I saw this argument increasingly take hold amongst Republicans, especially amongst their constituents who are tired and tired -- getting sick and tired of these trade deals and worried about it and made it more and more difficult to vote.

i would say this. Trump is making visceral arguments that really are gut arguments, whereas, you know, Hillary is making intellectual arguments that do very well in the ivory tower. The problem is...

MATTHEWS: I agree.


MATTHEWS: ... intellectual time. This is not -- I think it`s a time...


FEEHERY: ... -visceral time...


MATTHEWS: Yes. The problem is that Hillary Clinton is defending the way things we`ve been doing them...


MATTHEWS: ... trade deals. Anyway, we`ll -- anyway, she said she`s against this new TPP. We`ll see. I think you guys are smart. I`ll say that. I think you`re smart, John Feehery and Steve McMahon, because that`s where the fight is in the heart of a lot of this country.

Coming up, there`s still no claim on responsibility for yesterday`s terror attack in Turkey, but the director of the CIA, the guy we have to listen to, says he expects ISIS to try a similar attack here in the United States. That`s what we want to hear, a yes or no, and he says it could be a yes (INAUDIBLE) and what`s being done to keep this country safe, if enough`s being done.

Next, also, plus more on Bernie Sanders sounding the alarm, as I said, that same forces, the gut forces we`ve just been talking about, (INAUDIBLE) England`s decision to leave Europe could end up putting Donald Trump in the White House. Bernie Sanders, democratic socialist, said that, not somebody on the right, not Pat Buchanan.

So how can Hillary Clinton counter the kind of campaign Trump`s running right now after it worked so surprisingly well in England? By the way, he`s back in the fight this week. Pay attention. Trump is off his bad time. He`s back in his fight. Pay attention.

And President Obama will be campaigning with Hillary Clinton next week. That might help. But he`s the status quo. In eight years, he`s gone from thinking -- well, we`ll see. I think they`re getting along quite well. In fact, I do think he`ll be the best weapon she`s got come November. Anyway, can he use his popularity to get voters fired up? He could be up to 60 percent by this November. We`ll see if he can help Hillary get up past 50 percent. We`ll see that.

Anyway, finally, "Let Me Finish" with the question of our time. Who`s the leader who will face down the powder keg of terrorism and lost American jobs?

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, United States Senator John McCain spoke today at the bipartisan Policy Center in Washington about the state of politics today. He injected some classic McCain humor when it came to this unpredictable 2016 presidential race.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: If you believed that Donald Trump was going to be the nominee and you believed that Bernie Sanders was going to come close, please raise your hand. If you just raised your hand, please don`t drive an automobile here in the metropolitan area.


MCCAIN: You are a danger to yourself and others. You`re crazy.


MATTHEWS: Well (INAUDIBLE) happening. Anyway, Bernie Sanders not (ph).

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. It`s been more than 24 hours since three shots -- or three suicide attackers armed with guns walked into the Ataturk airport over in Istanbul and detonated several deadly bombs. And right now, the governor of Istanbul is reporting that there are at least 41 victims now and more than 230 wounded. In other words, 40 are dead. That death toll does not include the three suicide bombers themselves.

While there is no current claims of responsibility, the prime minister of Turkey has said that the indications are ISIS carried out this attack. ISIS.

Well, late today, President Obama on a trip to Canada offered Turkey any assistance available, and then he had this to say.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We`re still learning all the facts. But we know this is part of our broader shared fight against terrorist networks, and we will continue to work closely with Turkey to rout them out. And meanwhile, we`re going to do what`s necessary to protect our people.


MATTHEWS: Well, back here in the U.S., CIA director John Brennan -- he`s the guy to listen to -- speaking to the Council on Foreign Relations made clear he thinks ISIS was responsible for the Istanbul attack and warned that they most likely want to conduct a similar large-scale attack here in the U.S. Here`s what he said.


JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: It would be surprising to me that ISIL is not trying to hit us, both in the region, as well as in our homeland.


MATTHEWS: NBC`s Richard Engel joins me now from Istanbul.

Richard, the other day, you really gave us some great reporting on the fact that 35 or so people from the ISIS operation, killers, had been moved into Syria with the idea of basically being like time-release capsules, that they have a mission, all of them, to commit some sort of horror there.

Do we have that same kind of intelligence level that we have those kinds of people coming from ISIS into our country?

RICHARD ENGEL, NBC CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: No is the simple answer, or not that I`m aware of, I should say.

I got this piece of intelligence about two weeks ago that there was a major concern that something was going to happen in Turkey during the month of Ramadan because ISIS had deployed more than 35 of its militants from Syria into Turkey with the objective of carrying out attacks.

Now, it was never clear from the warning that I got whether these militants were going to carry out attacks exclusively in Turkey during Ramadan or if they were deployed into Turkey with the objective of moving on to other targets, moving -- using this as a springboard to get to Europe or potentially the other -- or the United States.


ENGEL: So the question I`m asking tonight is, there were three militants who died in suicide bombings at the airport where I am right now.

What about the 30-plus who remain unaccounted for just from that batch that was dispatched by ISIS? That is a concern I think people should be having right now. And I know U.S. officials are concerned that there could be follow-on attacks in Turkey at the very least.

MATTHEWS: Richard, I know you`re the best foreign correspondent around, but I want to ask you to reach out a bit to the political side of things back home.

When you read the papers, when you read the dispatches from America about what the candidates are saying, especially Trump, what do you make of this argument that terrorism can be faced down almost with an eye-for-an-eye approach, with torture included? Is there a get tough -- what would you do if you really wanted to a right-wing American president, a real tough kick- butt, antiterrorist person, male or female? What would that person do that we`re not doing now? What would be a tougher line be?

ENGEL: Well, it`s a hard question to answer.

And I have spent a lot of time talking to experts about this, talking to counterterrorism officials. And they think that you do need to be tough, that ISIS does need to be attacked in its homeland, that this is not a group that you can negotiate with, that it has to be driven out of its so- called caliphate in Iraq and Syria.

And that now is happening to a degree. It`s happening piecemeal with Bashar al-Assad`s forces doing some of the damage, Russia doing some of the damage, the Iraqi army, Shiite militias doing some of it, and, of course, yes, U.S. airstrike doing it.

Most people believe that more of that needs to be done and needs to be done in a more organized way. So there is an argument to be made for getting tough. There is an argument for getting tough in this country, that Turkey, for too long, turned a blind eye to ISIS militants who were transiting through.

But, that said, most people that I speak to who know a lot about this subject think that Trump`s approach, banning Muslims, a lot of the rhetoric, is completely counterproductive, that it alienates people, that it fosters this narrative that their jihad is correct, that the United States is on an endless crusade against Islam, and that it just plays into the hands of ISIS recruiters.

So you can be tough without being politically bombastic and, frankly, xenophobic and racist.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you so much, Richard Engel. I always expect to hear something great from you, and you just did it. Thanks so much from Istanbul.

Let`s turn to MSNBC terrorism analyst and author of "Defeating ISIS: Who They Are, How They Fight, What They Believe," Malcolm Nance.

Malcolm, the big question to you. It`s the same one. Can you assess the terror threat that we just heard from the CIA director, Brennan, in terms of what just happened in Turkey? Is it as clear and immediate a threat as we`re hearing the reporting coming from Richard Engel, is that there is going to be more trouble there in Turkey? Do we have the same degree of risk here at home in the near and present situation, right now, this month, next month?

MALCOLM NANCE, NBC TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, the level of threat that we have had going to the United States has not changed in the last two years.

ISIS is an expeditionary force, but they`re also aspirational force. They want to carry out operations in the United States. And where they can inspire a person to do it, they will do it. Where they can carry out an organized terrorist cell operation, like you saw in Istanbul, like you saw in Brussels, in Paris, they will do it.

But you have to understand, also, this is a group you under pressure. They`re like a ball of mercury that is being stepped on. And as they do that, they go under pressure and their caliphate is starting to crumble apart, they`re spreading out their operations to create as much mayhem as possible and to create political instability.

And it`s successful.

MATTHEWS: What`s the downside for them? What`s the downside for them, besides the loss of the individual lives of the terrorists, which they seem to be willing to expend? What`s the loss to them to just go crazy against us this month of July coming up?

It`s so much going in our country, including the Fourth of July and all the events coming up, with big combinations of people being brought together, obviously. We all know that without advertising it. What is the downside of them just going at us this summer, ISIS?

NANCE: Well, there`s no downside for a terrorist group, because a terrorist group`s objective is to create terror and to get you to make concessions that you would never make in a normal society and to change the fabric of your society.

That`s the beauty of a group like ISIS. We can kill them by the thousands and we are killing them by the thousands on the battlefield. But it only takes one or two of them to do an attack which is so heinous, as we saw in Orlando, in order for to us tear ourselves apart.

That`s part of their objective.


MATTHEWS: How do we tear ourselves apart? How does that ricochet?


MATTHEWS: How does that work?

NANCE: Well, politically, politically. Right now, we see that we have two political parties here, one of which is literally saying that we should give up all American values, that we should adopt the exact same tactics of the Gestapo and the Nazis.

MATTHEWS: I get you.

NANCE: And ISIS is eating that up.

They`re doing the same thing in France, which was the objective of their attacks last November in Paris, which is to destroy the social fabric of Europe and the United States and Turkey and our allies in order to make us feel that we have to hurt them more. And of course that hurts individual civilians on the ground, and that that will foster support to ISIS.

So, as long as we don`t play their game, and don`t let ISIS be our travel agent, our political advisers, and we don`t let ISIS dictate what Islam is, we can defeat them. We`re being pretty tough right now. We`re killing them by the thousands.

But tough talk is not going to do it. Global coordination of all anti- terrorism efforts are going to do that. I just proposed that in Brussels at a counterterrorism conference that we create a global international joint terrorism task force, akin to NATO, of all law enforcement. And that is what it is going to take.

MATTHEWS: Is there any way to vet immigrants coming into this country from different parts of the world where there is a lot of terrorism? Is there any way to do it and not create what you call Gestapo tactics?

NANCE: Sure, there absolutely is.

Look, in the intelligence community, we have a lot of resources. And if there is one thing the United States is very, very good at, and that is acquiring hard documentation on individuals overseas through the expenditure of money. We`re very good at buying intelligence. We`re also very good at electronic intelligence.

And without going into sensitive methods, we can vet individuals. We can check them across every biometric database in Iraq, what little that we can get out of Syria, Turkey. There are other intelligence agencies in this world. And as we work synergistically, it can be done.

By just kicking people out and ignoring the realpolitik of the world, we will harm ourselves.

MATTHEWS: I like the way you talk, sir, Malcolm Nance, who knows what he is talking about.

Up next, campaigner in chief? Eight years ago, they ended their rivalry. And now President Obama is Hillary Clinton`s perhaps biggest guy supporting her, set to hit the campaign trail. I have said before he is going to be Mr. October. He is starting early. I think it`s Reggie Jackson. And he`s starting in what -- it`s still June, and he`s going to be her biggest campaigner.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Milissa Rehberger. Here`s what`s happening.

President Obama addressed a joint session of Canada`s Parliament a short time ago. He`s been attending a North American Leaders Summit in Ottawa.

Vice President Biden visited the Turkish Embassy earlier to express his condolences following Tuesday`s attack. He said ISIS, the group suspected of carrying out the attack, will be wiped out.

And stocks rallied for a second session after two days of heavy selling following the U.K.`s Brexit vote. The Dow rose 284 points. The S&P added 34 and the Nasdaq climbed 87 -- back to HARDBALL.

MATTHEWS: Well, now for some upbeat political news.

Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Now that Hillary Clinton has all but won the Democratic nomination for president, President Obama is getting ready to hit the stump for his former rival and secretary of state. The two are expected to hold their first join rally together next Tuesday in Charlotte, North Carolina, a battleground state, of course, that Obama won in 2008, but to prove it was a battleground, lost in 2012.

As Politico reports, Hillary could use a little more excitement around her candidacy. The president thinks he can help generate it by making an affirmative case for her election. White House Communications Director Jen Psaki told Politico, "He can make the case as the highest-profile convert to be her supporter."

Why in the world somebody would say it`s a convert after eight years blows my mind. Anyway, the former Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said: "That is one place where we need to see some improvement, on the intensity side of the Clinton question."

Anyway, can Obama provide the jolt of energy and excitement around Hillary`s campaign that Democrats are looking for right now?

Annie Linskey covers the Clinton campaign for "The Boston Globe." Ken Vogel is a chief investigative reporter for Politico, in fact, the chief investigative reporter. Jennifer Jacobs is national political reporter for Bloomberg Politics.

Talk among yourselves now. This is the roundtable.

I want to start with Ken, but everybody else jump in on this.

What do you make of this? And why did Jen Psaki say the president is a convert? Believe me -- it`s been eight years they have been working together and been political allies, ever since Obama beat her in a close election in 2008. Anyway, Ken, explain the language of convert here and the firepower of the president as her biggest booster.

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: Well, Chris, they are looking to convert voters who are not particularly excited about Hillary Clinton. We`re talking about Bernie Sanders voters. We`re talking about slices of the liberal base that are not really enthused, that don`t have that energy for Hillary Clinton that did have that energy for Barack Obama, in fact, helped Barack Obama beat Hillary Clinton in 2008.

So, this idea that he has gone on a journey from being leery of her, calling her likable enough, to being one of her most ardent, steadfast supporters is something that they think can be paralleled and can be mirrored with the Democratic electorate, and particular parts of the Democratic electorate.

ANNIE LINSKEY, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": Yes, I think Ken is absolutely right.

I also got a sense. I was in Ohio today -- or this week -- to see Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton together. And you got the sense that the Democrats really want to see a united party. And I had not been to a Hillary Clinton event -- I have been going all year to various events, and I have not been to one with so much electricity and so much energy.

And it wasn`t necessarily, you know, really love for Warren, as much as just this notion of, we`re all standing together and this eagerness to take on Trump.

VOGEL: And you know who would bring the most energy perhaps at this point? They`re looking to bring along Bernie Sanders supporters, so Bernie Sanders and getting him out there. He, my sources tell me, is still a ways away from doing that.

MATTHEWS: Jennifer, are you there?


MATTHEWS: Speak up.

What do you think of this new duet? Duet, people call it. First time. I do think there`s something about -- we`re used to buddy films. We always love "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." We love them when they get together, the duo. Is this going to -- is two -- is one and one going to add up to more than two?

JACOBS: Yes, well, I think Obama could be really effective in campaigning for her.

You think of the voters he does really well with, and that`s blacks and Hispanics. His approval rating with non-whites is more than 70 percent. And what she needs to do, she knows that Donald Trump fails miserably with that particular voter pool.

So, what she needs to do is raise her numbers with that particular electorate to Obama levels that he got in the last elections. And Obama is somebody that can go to these people. He loves a crowd. He loves to give a speech. He really animates mainstream Democrats and young liberals.

And he is really loved by blacks and Hispanics. And so he doesn`t necessarily have to make them wildly excited about her. But he has to make them feel compelled to vote. He can say -- he can talk about a vision. He can talk about the future and say, she is my chosen one. She is the one I would like her to carry on my legacy. Please don`t let it slip away.


MATTHEWS: Yes, that`s so good.


MATTHEWS: Ken, the trade is already there. As you just said, the Jennifer, the trades are already in there, the fact that Obama already benefits from helping Hillary because his legacy is protected. He doesn`t to have offer her the -- he doesn`t have to be offered the vice presidency, whereas Elizabeth Warren, every time she campaigns, people say, well, is she going to get the vice presidency? Isn`t that good, Ken? It works well for both of them?

VOGEL: Yes, I agree.

And it`s almost like it -- not only does it help Obama, but it could hurt him if he were not out there campaigning aggressively for her to reinforce his legacy and show that she is the anointed one to carry it on.

If Donald Trump wins, we can be sure that some of these pieces of his legacy that are maybe not so set in stone -- Obamacare comes to mind, the Iran deal -- we could see him doing away with them. Hillary Clinton, we know, on both of those issues is going to stick by them.

So it`s low risk for him, high reward. In fact, it would be high risk for him if he was not campaigning for her. And let`s not forget Jennifer cited his favorability numbers among African-Americans. But he is well above 50 percent, in some polls, as high as 56 percent approval rating overall. That`s better than Hillary Clinton. It`s a lot better than Donald Trump.


MATTHEWS: That`s a lot better than anybody.


MATTHEWS: Go ahead.


Well, you know what? What I think is so interesting, too, if you just look back to 2014, and the Senate race in North Carolina, Obama is going to be going North Carolina, which is an interesting place to be for him to be for Clinton.

And just two years ago, Kay Hagan, the senator from North Carolina, was running away from Obama. She lost that race. And now you have seen a complete flip in the president`s popularity. And I think that`s one of the like key pieces.

MATTHEWS: So interesting.

LINSKEY: Yes, that Clinton is really going to benefit from his -- from having him.

I would also say, if you go to Brooklyn, and you talk to folks there at Clinton headquarters, they are going to tell you that Hillary Clinton needs four groups in order to win. She needs blacks, Hispanics, women, and millennials.

And heard from Jennifer that the president is helping her with two of those key groups. So, it`s something that clearly -- clearly the Clintons are excited about this.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, Politico, the magazine, also reported today that: "Obama is not going to stop mocking and trolling Trump. The only person who enjoys that more than the Democratic base and the press is the president himself, who alternates between seeing the Republican nominee as a charlatan and as a dangerous amplifier for hatred."

So, whoever wanted to speak then, go at it, because I think the president so far enjoys driving Trump crazy. The danger will come when Trump finds a way get to back at him and pulls him down to Trump`s level and then the president loses some of his glow.

LINSKEY: Well, you saw that today when he was speaking with Justin Trudeau in Canada.

I mean, I think that the question that came up in the press briefing today was about climate change. And, somehow, Obama got straight into Trump.

But you will notice that the president does not use the words "Donald Trump" very often. It is always very thinly veiled. So, I think that`s at least for now that`s how he is avoiding it.

JENNIFER JACOBS, BLOOMBERG: It doesn`t seem like President Obama takes very many things personally but he does remember that Trump was the one who kept the birther issue alive for longer than it should have been. So, in this particular case, it does seem like he takes some particular glee in cutting down Donald Trump and making him feel small.

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO: I think this is a risk, though, Chris, and, guys, in him sort of using humor too much to poke fun. What the Democrats are trying to do with the Clinton is trying to do is show him to be a real risk, a serious rick. Not to be trusted. To kind of poke fun at him, I think -- you miss some of that and you risk sort of, frankly, firing up his supporters.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: That was another problem with another world leader in the 20th century. People laugh at them rather than thought about him, anyway.

The roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, these three will tell me something I don`t know. We`ll be right back.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: We`re back now with the HARDBALL round table.

Of course, Annie, you start. Tell me something I don`t know.

LINSKEY: Well, I think there`s been a lot of talk about Elizabeth Warren as vice president, as a potential vice president. And one thing that is getting missed in that discussion, if she is indeed the pick, that will open the Senate seat. And people in Massachusetts are talking a lot about Joe Kennedy as her replacement. So there is this idea that there could be another Kennedy reclaiming the family seat in Massachusetts.

MATTHEWS: Yes. If you want to make some money, call me up and say you`re betting on Elizabeth Warren for V.P. You can make some money, OK? Call me first, though. I want that opportunity.


VOGEL: Well, Chris, we reported that Corey Lewandowski, Trump`s fired campaign manager, had a $1.2 million book deal offer on the table from Harper Collins, but that the publishing house rescinded the offer because he refused his nondisclosure agreement and they were worried about having Trump would have some control over the book.

Corey pushed back on this today on Twitter, saying it`s untrue. In fact, I`ve talked to a source who has seen a company of the proposed contract and said that it call for a 60,000-word manuscript that took readers behind the scenes of the Trump campaign including publishing never previously public accounts of stuff going on involving Trump and his inner circle. You can see why that type of contract would conflict directly with a nondisclosure agreement.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I would think that Donald Trump would not like that book.

Anyway, Jennifer?

JACOBS: There is a big fund-raiser for Trump in the Hamptons next week on July 9th. Trump will be there himself as well as Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican Party. I would recommend looking for some big names showing up at that event.

MATTHEWS: How do the little people get in that one?

JACOBS: Probably wouldn`t.

VOGEL: Through the kitchen.

MATTHEWS: Another fight against the elite.

Anyway, thank you, Annie Linskey. Thank you, Ken Vogel, as always. Thank you, Jennifer Jacobs.

Coming up, Donald Trump embraces the themes that led England vote to leave Europe. Will Trump`s take back our country talk lead to a surprise outcome here in November as it did in Britain? And what can Hillary Clinton do to keep it from happening? That question has been raised by Bernie Sanders.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: You can may HARDBALL with us all week long online. Follow the show on Twitter and Instagram and like us on Facebook. You`ll get access to interviews, videos, behind the scenes photos, as we hit the road covering this wild presidential campaign of 2016.

By the way, we`ll be right back, a bigger story.



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, I was just reading where the United States Chamber of Commerce is upset with me, and they usually go the Republican way. They`re upset with my statements on trade. And I said, let me ask you a question. And I tweeted, why? Why would you be upset?

I`m all for free trade. The problem with free trade is you need smart people making deals. We don`t have good deals. And free trade is killing us.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was Donald Trump, of course, making war today on the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, not a bad move, by the way, for him to make up there in Maine.

Anyway, as Trump continues to rally voters, Senator Bernie Sanders is sounding an alarm, those are his words, telling Democrats to wake up, warning Democrats that what happened in Britain, the rejection of the current status of the global economy could happen here at home and it could land Trump in the White House.

In an op-ed for "The New York Times" today, Senator Sanders writes, quote, "The notion that Donald Trump could benefit from the same forces that gave the leave proponents a majority in Britain should sound an alarm for the Democratic Party in the United States. Millions of American voters like the leave voters are understandably angry and frustrated by the economic forces that are destroying the middle class," close quote.

Well, that was a hell of a statement.

Joining me right now to respond is Senator Sherrod Brown.

Senator Brown, what do you make of Bernie Sanders` alarm bell that what Trump is selling is what sold in Britain?

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Well, I`ve heard that from others too. It`s obviously way more complicated than that. The number of minority voters, the diversity of our country compared to Britain, I think that clearly we need a different trade policy, we know that. But we also we`re seeing Donald Trump running, who wants to eliminate, wants to repeal Dodd-Frank.

If anything, one would think we learn from Brexit is we need a strong, stable banking system, not one to repeal the consumer bureau and repeal Dodd-Frank and give Wall Street what it wants. That would be the worst kind of response.

And last, Donald Trump will scare people with the way he will try to manage this economy. And I think that will become increasingly clear as this campaign goes on.

MATTHEWS: Well, short of putting you on the ticket, how does Hillary Clinton who`s going to be the nominee of your party, we all know that, how does she reach that guy up there in that part of the country, in Ohio or Pennsylvania, who does feels that they`ve lost their economic nationalism, their country is not looking -- the elites aren`t looking out for him?

BROWN: Well, I think when people see the hypocrisy of Donald Trump, the suit I have on today is made by union workers about six miles from my house in Brooklyn, Ohio, right outside Cleveland.

Donald Trump wants to out -- he outsources his ties to China, his suits to Mexico. We can make that in Ohio. The glass where he`s outsourced, we can make that in Toledo. The furniture he`s outsourced to Turkey, we can make in Norwalk or Fulton County, Archbold, Ohio. I mean, when he says that none of this stuff is made in Ohio, that`s why he had to outsource, I think the hypocrisy is going to come through. It needs all of us pointing out that hypocrisy.

For Trump, it`s always about Trump and how he makes more money. This guy`s made a lot of money from trade agreements, yet he blasts them and says he wants to change it. He didn`t say that back then. Now he`s saying it because he wants to be president. But it`s not going to work, people are going to see through it.

MATTHEWS: We want to see more of you on this show, a lot more, Senator Sherrod Brown.

BROWN: You`re on, thanks.

MATTHEWS: We`re still pushing for you to be V.P. nominee. I know you don`t want to talk about it, but you make more sense on this than anybody.

When we return, we want to finish tonight with the question of our time. Who is the leader who will face down the powder keg of terrorism and lost American jobs?

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with the question of our time. Who is the leader who will face down the powder keg of terrorism and lost American jobs?

Whatever else the candidate says, the question he or she needs to answer and clearly is how he or she is just the person to protect us, protect us from bombs going off in airports, bullets flying where we school our children, where we live ourselves. Is he or she the one to protect us from the loss of jobs in the night? Jobs being robbed from us and whisked off to Mexico or China or wherever else cheap labor awaits and with it the main chance for better profit?

Give us a strong, convincing answer to these entangled questions of economic and personal security the voters is saying, and then maybe we`ll try to focus on what else you have to say. Donald Trump has answers, yes, he does. He talks of punishing companies for heading south across the border, punishing China for that old game of devaluing its currency in order to cheapen its products and overpriced ours. He talks of using torture as an eye for eye footing.

What are the Democrats promising? I mean, right out front, what`s the party`s clear exciting right now alternative to what Trump`s put out there on terrorism, disappearing jobs and national worry? Whatever it is, it`s hard to get on a bumper sticker, much less in front of a baseball cap.

But the Democrats need to get it out there somehow. Bernie Sanders says that Trump will overwhelm the party in the economic debate if it doesn`t start saying something, if it doesn`t kill the implication that the Democrats are the party of the way things are.

Can anyone disagree with that? Is there anyone out there right now ready to ring out, would keep it up, we love the way things are going, we love the way our industry is being taken away from us in the night, we love the fact our children have to travel far from home to get a stake in something, a job somewhere, we love that but for Social Security and Medicare, the only money moving through our mailboxes goes out in the bills we pay?

I`ll say it again, this time in duet with Senator Sanders -- Democrats, ignore the Trump message at your peril.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. It really is. And thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES", of course, starts right now.