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Hardball With Chris Matthews, Transcript, 6/27/2016

Guests: April Ryan, Carol Lee, Colleen McCain Nelson, Dana Loesch, Cecile Richards

Show: HARDBALL Date: June 27, 2016 Guest: April Ryan, Carol Lee, Colleen McCain Nelson, Dana Loesch, Cecile Richards

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Team Hillary goes on the attack.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews back in Washington.

Well, Hillary Clinton today teamed up with Senator Elizabeth Warren and made Donald Trump wish those two had never met. Hitting the tycoon fresh from his time on the links in Scotland and down in the polls here at home, Clinton and the nightmare of Wall Street went for the guy`s jugular.


SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the United States because she knows what it takes to beat a thin-skinned bully who is driven by greed and hate! She knows you beat a bully not by tucking tail and running, but by standing your ground and fighting back!

Just look at her history. She`s been on the receiving end of one right- wing attack after another for 25 years, but she has never backed down.


WARREN: She doesn`t whine. She doesn`t run to Twitter to call her opponents fat pigs or dummies. No, she just remembers who really needs someone on their side.


MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, if this was an audition for national running mates, the gentlelady from Massachusetts nailed it, showing her chops at what presidential candidates most like in their number twos, hitting the guy they`re running against and not being afraid to hit hard.


HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), FMR. SEC. OF STATE, PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I am so delighted to be here with my friend and a great leader, Senator Elizabeth Warren!


CLINTON: I am very grateful for that introduction. But more importantly, I want to thank her for fighting every single day for families like hers, families like yours and millions of hard-working Americans who deserve to have more folks on their side!


CLINTON: And I must say, I do just love to see how she gets under Donald Trump`s thin skin.


CLINTON: She exposes him for what he is, temperamentally unfit and totally unqualified to be president of the United States!



MATTHEWS: Boy, that`s a great line. Anyway, Donald Trump pushed back against Warren in a phone interview with NBC`s Hallie Jackson. He once again tossed out the old "Pocahontas" label.

According to Trump in that conversation, "I hope that she`s selected as the vice presidential running mate. I will speak very openly about her if she is. She is one of the least productive senators in the United States Senate. We call her Pocahontas for a reason." Well, Trump added, "She made up her heritage, which I think is racist. I think she`s a racist, actually, because what she did was very racist."

Well. Meanwhile, Trump`s surrogate, Scott Brown went even further. He challenged Senator Warren to take a DNA test.

NBC`s Kelly O`Donnell is on Capitol Hill right now, and Colleen McCain Nelson covers the Clinton campaign for "The Wall street Journal."

Well, Kelly, weigh in here as you can, as the supreme objective reporter. Is this going to -- is she actually auditioning for a vice presidential running mate, or is this something to get through the night, in a sense, to bring in the Bernie people, excite them for awhile, be a bridge, if you will, to someone a little more predictable as vice president, like Tim Kaine?

KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, both of those things are real. There`s no doubt that the Clinton team wants to bring along those Bernie Sanders supporters who have yet been hesitant at this point, and Elizabeth Warren is formidable.

We are told that she has been through the vetting process. That has begun. She`s been interviewed by the top Democratic lawyer who does that for Democratic nominees, so that`s serious. We`ve been told to look at her in a serious way.

And she certainly showed her skills, as you point out. That role of being the attack dog, which is usually reserved for vice presidents is something that, clearly, Elizabeth Warren feels comfortable doing, and she has done it both on the stage and on social media, and that is strong.

But there are many people who say there`s a big downside with Elizabeth Warren, and to some degree, it`s one beyond her control. She comes from a state with a Republican governor, who would appoint her replacement if they were elected as the Democratic ticket, and that would be a negative for a new President Clinton, needing as many Democrats in the Senate to try to get things done in the first 100 days. That`s something that certainly the Clinton team is factoring in.

That also applies to some other top picks, like Sherrod Brown of Ohio or Cory Booker of New Jersey. They too have Republican governors.

But Elizabeth Warren was able to do a few things today. She can stoke that excitement about, is she in the running, is she likely to be the first female vice presidential nominee for a Democratic ticket? And at the same time, the Clinton team can proceed and perhaps choose someone else, but not lose the kind of fire Elizabeth Warren brings.

MATTHEWS: Well, Colleen, you jump in here. I think, Colleen -- let me ask you the question. Maybe Hillary Clinton in the end won`t pick her as VP running mate for a lot of those reasons that Kelly just mentioned, and other reasons, maybe she just doesn`t want to be upstaged if you will, as they say in show business, because she is a star.

But here`s the thing I`d like to know about. That may all be true, that she`s just a stalking horse for Tim Kaine or someone else. But she looks like she`s running for vice president. I mean, I can usually tell if somebody wants something. I think she wants to be a star in this role. And I think she`d like to be vice president based upon how good she has been doing in this role. What do you think? Is she running for VP?

COLLEEN MCCAIN NELSON, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, she certainly hasn`t pooh-poohed the idea. When she endorsed Hillary Clinton and was asked if she was qualified to be president because former governor Ed Rendell had suggested that she was not qualified to be president, she said, Absolutely I`m qualified. I`m prepared to be commander-in-chief.

So she certainly is confident that she could handle this role. She seems to be embracing it with enthusiasm. And it`s worth noting that Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren...


MATTHEWS: Did you see that hug? Did you see that hug? (INAUDIBLE) and she is into this like a real campaigner. I`m sorry -- not just somebody...


MATTHEWS: ... play the part for three or four weeks before you pick the other guy. She looks like she`s going for it. I like that, actually.

NELSON: They don`t -- they haven`t had a close relationship in the past, and so this has been kind of a getting to know you better period for Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren. And so after Elizabeth Warren endorsed Clinton, you saw them having a private meeting at Hillary Clinton`s house. They`ve had phone calls. They referenced that today. So they`re kind of getting to know each other, and they seem to be bonding over their shared enemy in Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: Well said. here`s more from Senator Warren attacking Donald Trump in Ohio, as I said, in Cincinnati today. Let`s watch it.


WARREN: Donald Trump says he`ll make America great again. It`s right there. No, it`s stamped on the front of his goofy hat.


WARREN: You want to see goofy? Look at him in that hat! But when Donald Trump says "great," I ask great for who, exactly?


WARREN: Yes! For millions of kids struggling to pay for an education? For millions of seniors barely surviving on Social Security? For families that don`t fly to Scotland to play golf? When Donald Trump says he`ll make America great, he means make it even greater for rich guys just like Donald Trump!



MATTHEWS: Kelly, that populism is something that Elizabeth`s known for, Elizabeth Warren`s known for. That`s how she got the job as senator from Massachusetts. The people up there love her because of this.

Hillary`s not a populist. She`s a pro. She a -- Kelly, she`s really good at all this government thing that we all -- you and I take an interest in. But she`s not one of the people out there in the little villages that`s come out and said, I want to bring the -- I got a pitchfork in my hand, whereas Elizabeth Warren, despite her Ivy League and all that background, she acts like she`s got a pitchfork.

O`DONNELL: And she`s able to deliver those blows to the head, if you will...


O`DONNELL: ... without looking like she`s the bad guy.


O`DONNELL: She does it with a bit of self-deprecation or a softer tone, yet what`s in her message is stinging. And there have been times when she was not really on the same page with Hillary Clinton, who, of course, has represented New York in the Senate, where Wall Street is the home base, and so this is kind of a new relationship.

It certainly would be a very different story if Elizabeth Warren did not want this job. She would not have come out in the way that she has, in very public strokes, over the last few days. And today was a notable day. If they wanted to test the imagery, test the reaction of the crowd, test the message, this was a very good day for both Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren.

But again, in the end, when the calculation has to be made by Hillary Clinton about who best adds something to her ticket, it may be that there`s another choice, and the front-runner appears to be Tim Kaine, who would perhaps be more helpful with Virginia. So it`s a complicated choice, and Hillary Clinton, unlike some nominees in other years -- she has a lot of good options, and that`s a good place to be.

MATTHEWS: She sure does, Kelly. Great reporting, and I agree with you on everything. I think Kaine`s still the favorite because of those reasons.

What do you think? I`ll give you one last shot, Colleen. Isn`t Kaine still the favorite, given the fact Virginia will be close, he is kind of -- has a number two quality to him. He looks like a guy who would accept the role of being two doors down from the president and not be a threat to him.

I don`t mean that negatively. VPs aren`t supposed to be threats to presidents of the United States!



NELSON: ... he has executive experience. He was governor of Virginia...

MATTHEWS: Mayor...

NELSON: he ran the DNC. There`s no obvious negative with Tim Kaine. And I think he would say that the so-called boring factor, which he embraced, and I`ve had other Democratic operatives say they don`t see that as a downside. And that might be good for Hillary Clinton. We don`t want to get too far ahead of the process. She`s got several people to consider. But Tim Kaine certainly has a lot to offer.

MATTHEWS: And he`s Irish, too. Anyway, let me ask Colleen the same question. You think Kaine is still the favorite? It was in the -- Chris Cillizza in "The Washington Post" put him at the top of the list again today.

NELSON: He has a lot working in his favor, and not least of which is the fact that Hillary Clinton is comfortable with him. And in talking with people who are close to this process, they say that at the end of the day, Hillary Clinton is going to want to choose someone she considers a partner, someone she actually likes being around, and they have an existing relationship. She feels comfortable working with him.

And also, people close to Clinton talk about the fact that at this point -- and the race could certainly shift over the coming weeks before they make a final decision, but at this point they don`t feel like they need to make a Hail Mary decision. They don`t necessarily think they need to go bold on this decision. They see some value in making a safe choice that she`s comfortable with. And from watching Hillary Clinton campaign over the last year-plus, we certainly know that she is fairly cautious and often she opts for the safe choice.

MATTHEWS: Yes. You don`t throw a Hail Mary pass when you`re two touchdowns ahead in the last quarter. Anyway, thank you, Kelly O`Donnell, and thank you, Colleen McCain Nelson.

Well, a pair of new polls out verify just what Colleen said there. Look at these problems for Donald Trump. The NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll, our poll, shows Clinton leading Trump by 5 points nationally. Since May, Trump has dropped 2 points in that poll.

But the poll from "The Washington Post" and ABC just out is even starker. Clinton leads Trump by 12 points. There`s your two touchdowns. And that`s a huge shift from last month. Clinton gained 7 points while Trump lost 7 in that recent month.

Joining me right now is Thomas Perez. He`s, of course, secretary of labor. He is here in a personal capacity as a Hillary Clinton supporter. Thank you so much for coming.

THOMAS PEREZ, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: Good to be here with you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: So what do you think about this? Is it going to be Kaine, or is it going to be somebody wild like Elizabeth Warren? And that would be...


MATTHEWS: Two women, first woman -- first two women?

PEREZ: I will leave that for Secretary Clinton to decide. What I`m all about every day in my personal capacity is making sure that we build on the progress of this president and take it to the next level because the differences between these two, Chris, candidates could not be more stark.

MATTHEWS: OK, well, let me ask you a question, the tough question. You look at the polls, and nationally, Hillary is up definitely a couple of notches now, maybe an average of 7 points. OK. That`s a very good average to be above.

But if you look at Pennsylvania, Ohio, some of these tricky industrial states where people do have jobs problems, where industry has caved over the last several decades, they`re looking like Brexit. They`re looking like England. They`re looking like those parts of the U.K. that voted to get out of Europe. They don`t like the way things are.

How does Hillary bring them back?

PEREZ: Well, again, I would look at the polling back in 2012 and 2008 at that point in the campaign, and you saw similar numbers. And...


MATTHEWS: ... in those states, where they like Trump.

PEREZ: Yes. And the reason Hillary Clinton is going to do very well there is because she`s all about how we can make an economy that works for everyone, and not just the few at the top. Donald Trump is a fraud. He`s in it all for himself and...

MATTHEWS: What about trade? Hillary Clinton had supported, Bill Clinton definitely had supported the Trans-Pacific trade agreement. Then Hillary decided, politically, I believe, to be against it. I don`t know where Bill Clinton is on this.

Where are you on trade?

PEREZ: Well, again...

MATTHEWS: Where`s labor on trade?

PEREZ: Labor supports Secretary Clinton. Why does labor support secretary Clinton...

MATTHEWS: Do you support the trade deal or no, the Obama trade deal?

PEREZ: No, but labor supports Secretary Clinton. And the reason why labor supports Secretary Clinton -- the AFC-CIO just endorsed her, the UAW endorsed her -- is because this campaign is about -- it`s not about slogans. It`s about substance. Donald Trump talks about, Oh, I`m going to go after China and...

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you a policy question. Is trade -- are trade agreements good for American labor?

PEREZ: Well, again, the labor movement has raised a number of very important questions about trade agreements, and one of the things that they know is we need to learn lessons from our history, including the mistakes that have been made. But they also...

MATTHEWS: Well, they want a very strong platform -- they want a very strong plank in the Democratic convention, coming out of this convention in Philadelphia against trade agreements.

PEREZ: Well, again...

MATTHEWS: Are you comfortable with that?

PEREZ: Well, again -- again, here`s what the differences are, Chris, between Secretary Clinton and Donald Trump on the issues of trade. Donald Trump talks a mean game about bringing jobs home, but you look at the jobs that he creates through his own lines of business -- his suits are made in Mexico, so he`s going to build a wall along the Mexican border...


MATTHEWS: What`s the difference in their trade philosophy?

PEREZ: Oh, there`s huge differences. He`s all talk, no action, and she`s substance. She talks about forming -- having a trade prosecutor so that you can take on China, who`s been dumping steel. Build on the progress of the Obama administration and take it to the next level.

She talks about building -- making sure we create jobs here. We reward businesses who are creating jobs at home and we punish businesses who are outsourcing jobs overseas.

MATTHEWS: Would she punish a company that wanted to pull out? Because Trump keeps saying he`ll go after Nabisco, he`ll go after anybody else who moves out of the country?


MATTHEWS: Would President Clinton do that?

PEREZ: Her platform is all about rewarding businesses who create jobs at home.


PEREZ: And if you want to -- if you want to take your business to another country, then you`re going to pay a penalty. But she...

MATTHEWS: I`m glad to hear that.

PEREZ: She`s all about...

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you a question, political question. Have you been vetted for VP?

PEREZ: You`d have to ask the campaign that.

MATTHEWS: You`ve never been questioned.

PEREZ: You have to ask the campaign.

MATTHEWS: No, have you been questioned?

PEREZ: Have I been questioned?


MATTHEWS: Have they called you in and said, We`re checking you out for VP?

PEREZ: I don`t -- I don`t know who they`re checking out, Chris.

MATTHEWS: But they`ve never checked you.

PEREZ: Again, you`d have to ask them. I don`t know, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Have they asked for paperwork? Have they asked you for paperwork?

PEREZ: They don`t -- I don`t know what they`re doing, Chris...

MATTHEWS: Have they asked you for anything...

PEREZ: Chris, I would -- I would...

MATTHEWS: So I just take it as a yes.

PEREZ: Chris, here`s -- here`s the -- here`s the deal. Here`s why I have been so heavily involved in her campaign from the outset. This nation is at a crossroads right now. This is not simply -- the Trump train wreck is not simply a train wreck for workers in Ohio. It`s a train wreck for American values. It`s what we stand for as a nation.

When you -- in times like this, we need someone who`s going to bring us together, not someone who`s going to divide us. And Donald Trump, he is -- he`s a disaster. He`s -- he`s -- on domestic issues, it`s all about him.


PEREZ: On foreign policy issues, he`s a loose cannon. You know, ready, fire, aim is not a strategy for national security.

MATTHEWS: Thank you. Well said.

PEREZ: ... and it`s not a strategy...


MATTHEWS: I`m glad you said that.

PEREZ: Take care.

MATTHEWS: I think you must be under observation for VP. You can`t tell me. I understand why. Anyway, thank you, Secretary Perez, secretary of labor in this administration.

I`m very excited to tell you now about a special hour coming up here on HARDBALL on Monday July 11th. The one and only Bill Maher`s going to be our guest for the whole hour -- Bill Maher. This guy gets audiences because he`s outrageous. You know, he can say things nobody on regular television can say. He is something.

That`s two weeks from tonight here on HARDBALL, Bill Maher, the whole hour.

Coming up, by the way -- Donald Trump may be down in these newest polls, but the forces driving Trump`s campaign, nationalism and anti-immigration, just won big in England`s vote to leave Europe. Could Trump parlay the same feelings among disaffected voters and workers in places like Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan into an electoral triumph come November? That`s ahead, and it`s real.

Plus, a huge victory for abortion rights activists as the U.S. Supreme Court strikes down tough restrictions on abortion clinics in Texas. We`ll get reaction to today`s ruling.

And the HARDBALL roundtable tonight is here as Hillary Clinton strikes deep against Donald Trump. She`s accusing him of using the chaos after Britain`s vote to leave Europe to push his own business interests. She`s saying he`s selfish.

Finally, "Let Me Finish" with the danger of ignoring what just happened across the Atlantic.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell won`t be headed to prison, after all. The Supreme Court has just ruled today on that. The high court tossed out McDonnell`s bribery conviction in a unanimous decision, noting the federal government had too broadly described the law.

McDonnell had been convicted in 2014 for accepting nearly $175,000 worth of cash and gifts, including a Rolex watch and designer clothes for his wife. Prosecutors now have the option to retry McDonnell under the new guidelines.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Global stock markets were hammered again today as the world continued to grapple with the magnitude of Great Britain`s decision to leave Europe basically.

Earlier today, Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London and leading contender to replace David Cameron as prime minister over there, wrote an op-ed where he celebrated Britain`s new independence.

He wrote: "I can tell you that the number one issue was control, a sense that British democracy was being undermined by the E.U.`s system and that we should restore to the people that vital power, to kick out the rulers at elections and to choose new ones."

And those leaders are looking decidedly more nationalistic these days. Last week`s decision was a resounding victory for insurgent politics and nationalist movements fueled by populist anger and distrust of the political elite.

And here in the United States, that anger spurred by economic anxiety and is leading voters to Trump.

For more on this, I`m joined by MSNBC political analyst Hugh Hewitt, who hosts "The Hugh Hewitt Show" on Salem Radio Network, and Dana Loesch, who is a conservative radio talk show host as well down in Dallas.

I have the sense that as bad a candidate as Trump has been lately, the stuff he said focusing on the guy, the judge, in a way that was stupid and self-interested, talking about his golf course as if it was more important and the money it brought in than the economy and the life of Britain itself, stupid statement after stupid statement, and yet he still has something there, something that the public in its anger, its frustration with immigration, its frustration with trade, wants to be heard, and he is saying it.

Hugh, you first. There`s something and it`s been resounding from Europe.

HUGH HEWITT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it`s called patriotism.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Go ahead. Explain it.

HEWITT: It`s called patriotism.

And I think what happened in Britain -- I had John Fisher Burns, perhaps the greatest living foreign correspondent, on the radio this morning from "The New York Times" and he said there beats in every English heart that Shakespearian summoning of the sceptered Isle and the shimmering sea.


HEWITT: What Donald Trump is talking about by making America great again is not just Reagan, but a lot more than that, that resonates, and you have been talking about them all night, about Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio voters.

And they are going to turn out for Donald Trump regardless of how often Hillary Clinton, who is basically the British Labor leader, Jeremy Corbyn, better pantsuit and better makeup.

MATTHEWS: Is she that bad? Is she that bad? Come on. She`s not that far left.

HEWITT: Oh, she`s that far to the left.


HEWITT: And if she put Elizabeth Warren on that ticket, you have added President Rousseff of Brazil and you have got the hardest left ticket in the world.


MATTHEWS: Hugh, Hugh, your lack of love for Trump has become this torrid anger against Hillary. She`s not Dilma Rousseff. She`s not her.


MATTHEWS: Never mind.

HEWITT: That`s Elizabeth Warren. I think Hillary is Jeremy Corbyn.

But back to Trump, if he keeps on tapping into this patriotic resurgence, the person I`m worried...

MATTHEWS: I`m with you on that.

HEWITT: ... about, coming out of your last segment, is Tim Ryan in Northeastern Ohio, because if she can go back and get Roman Catholic Democrats Mahoning and Trumbull County, she carries Ohio and Western Pennsylvania and Beaver Falls and Sharon, that is who I`m worried about, because that`s who are Donald Trump voters right now.

MATTHEWS: Do you think she`s that smart, this woman you have labeled a lefty?



HEWITT: Oh, when it comes to politics, the Clinton machine is the deadliest machine since Tammany. Come on, Chris.


Dana, you`re on.


DANA LOESCH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I wrote a book about this.

MATTHEWS: Go ahead. I know you did.

LOESCH: I wrote a book about this called "Flyover Nation," and it explains this, because the reason that we are in this position, the reason that we have Donald Trump as our candidate, the presumptive nominee -- I know we got to go and solidify that at the convention -- but people just kind of want to see the system burn.

And I think it is ironic that it`s a guy from New York that flyover nation picks to do that, but he`s been the only person so far that is just going to be this mallet that people can wield to smash the system in D.C., and that`s why.

And I read an article today just in Politico, Chris, that gets into how all of these disaffected voters, particularly those in Southern Missouri and some in Kentucky and in Virginia, these have for so long been a dependable voting bloc for Hillary Clinton. You are talking about the working class, people who work in the mines, all of this.

But now they are kind of leaning towards Donald Trump. And I think that this, plus seeing how much this has spread worldwide with the Brexit as well, I think Hillary Clinton kind of has a lot to worry about going into November.

MATTHEWS: Let me go back, well, both of you on this question because it gets back to what you, Hugh, we talked about for all those months in the primaries. He ran this campaign, this same campaign against the Republican establishment that he`s running nationally.

He may be the first politician in history to run the same general election campaign that he ran in the primaries. No pivot, none of that crap, just being the same guy, I`m running against the establishment, which is pro- trade, pro-loosey-goosey immigration. They don`t really have -- we don`t really have an immigration policy.

What I was grabbed by, Hugh, along the lines you spoke, one of the reasons the British people were angry, the majority of them were, is that their immigration policy wasn`t even being set by the people they elected. It was being set in Brussels.

I feel like Patrick Moynihan, Brussels.

HEWITT: Brussels.

MATTHEWS: Why should somebody in Brussels decide what your immigration policy into your country is? That`s the extraordinary thing. And I understand why they didn`t like that.

HEWITT: Well, you are the first honest Democrat.

MATTHEWS: Oh, thank you.

HEWITT: You are the first honest Democrat.

LOESCH: Kudos.

HEWITT: Because a lot of people want to say it`s only anti-illegal immigration. It`s not. It`s anti-Brussels, anti-Washington, D.C., anti- elites governing daily lives.


MATTHEWS: We don`t have an immigration policy right now. We don`t have one. Anyway...

HEWITT: But we all -- whatever it`s not, it`s not being run by people in Texas and Arizona who are bearing the burden of it.

LOESCH: Yes. They are penalized for it, not to interrupt you.


LOESCH: Really quickly, Chris, I had dinner with a Border Patrol agent just the other day. And he was saying, you know what? It frustrates us to no end that Washington, D.C., sets the policies for our state and we can`t even uphold our own laws.

MATTHEWS: I think that`s interesting.

And it`s one of the reasons why in the Southwest, there`s a big diversion between the Hispanic population, Latinos, and the people that are very angry about illegal immigration. And we`re not just -- all kinds of people.

Anyway, this question I have for you. Is putting Elizabeth Warren out there as a stalking horse, which I think she is, Dana, is this going to help relieve the Democrats` problem on these fronts, in this patriotic -- does it make people in the country feel, at least the Democrats know what populism is? Or doesn`t it?

LOESCH: I think in a way it does, just floating her out there as bait, for the lack of a better way to put it.


MATTHEWS: What`s the bait and switch, though? Is that going to go over well?

LOESCH: Yes. I don`t know if that will. For right now, she`s sort of satiating all of the people who are disaffected from Hillary going and they were going towards Bernie.

But now if it looks like they are having a golden girls moment with Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren out there...


MATTHEWS: You can talk like this. Golden girls?


MATTHEWS: I don`t think they`re in that age group. Anyway, they`re not in that age group, first of all.


MATTHEWS: But I have to give it to Dana. Good luck on your book, "Flyover Country" (sic).

LOESCH: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Just looking at it. And it`s an interesting idea. It`s about time somebody wrote it.

LOESCH: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: And I want to say this, that the question Hillary Clinton has to answer is, does she really get it? And do you think she gets it, Hugh? She doesn`t want to answer it, what you`re talking about it.

HEWITT: No, she doesn`t get it. She does not get it.

And here`s the question I think we ought to be watching for more parallels, Chris.

MATTHEWS: I think she doesn`t want to get it. Yes, go ahead.

HEWITT: There`s going to be a leadership election in the conservative party.

If Theresa May, the home secretary, or Liam Fox, the former defense secretary, emerges as the leader, that`s not good for Trump. But if Boris Johnson emerges as the leader, that means that that which powered Brexit is gaining strength. And if he doesn`t get it, that means that Hillary Clinton -- if Theresa May emerges, the serious woman, the home secretary, the person with experience in foreign affairs, that`s a very good omen for Hillary Clinton. Watch that space.

MATTHEWS: Yes, lot of crazy things happening. Ireland may be reunited. Scotland may go independent. And we may get Boris Johnson at Westminster.

Thank you so much, Hugh Hewitt and Dana Loesch. Thanks for joining us, both of you.

LOESCH: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Up next: The Supreme Court delivers a victory for abortion rights activists and supporters. I`m going to speak with the president of Planned Parenthood herself about this decision down in Texas and what it means for women across the United States.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


GIGI STONE WOODS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Gigi Stone Woods. Here`s what`s happening.

Five hundred National Guard troops are on the ground, 200 more are on the way to assist residents in flooded parts of West Virginia; 23 people have died. President Obama signed a disaster declaration on Sunday.

Meanwhile, in Kern County, California, authorities are searching for potential victims of the Erskine wildfire. Two people are confirmed dead; 250 homes have been destroyed; 2,000 firefighters are battling the blaze, which is 40 percent contained.

Those are the headlines -- now back to HARDBALL.

MATTHEWS: So much big decision-making at the Supreme Court today. The court handed abortion rights advocates a major victory today in what is considered to be the biggest abortion case in nearly 25 years.

The court ruled 5-3 in favor of Texas clinics that argue that the strict laws make it harder for women to get abortions. Well, since the law was passed in 2013, more than half the clinics in that states -- in that state were forced to close. Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Anthony Kennedy, the Republican, ruled in favor of Texas clinics.

And Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito dissented.

Well, joining me right now is NBC justice correspondent Pete Williams.

This is unusual. It shows that maybe an eight-member court might be an effective instrument of justice here, just eight.

PETE WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple things to think about.

First, if Antonin Scalia had been on this court, instead of 5-3, it would have been 5-4, probably the same outcome. Secondly, of all those justices, the only one who spoke up and said there`s nothing wrong with the Texas law was Clarence Thomas.

The chief justice and Sam Alito had problems with some technical aspects of how the case came to the Supreme Court. But it is a pretty strong smack- down of the Texas law. And basically the court said that it raises obstacles to women`s access to abortion without any medical benefit, so, therefore, it`s an undue burden.


WILLIAMS: And, therefore, this decision now, it doesn`t by itself undercut the other laws, but it can be used by opponents of laws in other states to challenge them.


MATTHEWS: Does this reaffirm Casey and Webster and all the cases subsequent to Roe v. Wade that we`re going to -- bottom line, a woman, given the term period requirements, first term, second term, is entitled under the law to her own decision-making?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. It`s Casey all over again.

And the language of Casey, remember what the Supreme Court said in Casey, which was almost 25 years ago. States can put restrictions on access to abortion, but they cannot unduly burden a woman`s right of access to abortion.

And that`s the holding today. The Texas law, the Supreme Court said, is unconstitutional because it`s an undue burden. So, it puts new life in that test.

MATTHEWS: Last question. The justices, particularly Justice Kennedy, seemed to be seeing through the motive of the opponents.

They were doing this not to protect the life and limb of one of the patients in these procedures, abortion procedures, but they were doing it to stop abortion.

WILLIAMS: Yes. That`s what the ruling says, that these were a pretext, that they don`t do anything for women.

As a matter of fact, Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a concurrence says the Texas law actually makes it worse for women by making it very hard to get an appointment. A lot of women might try to get some illegal means.

MATTHEWS: Or drive 200 miles and find a doctor who will have a waiting list.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Yes. What`s it called? Supply and demand.


MATTHEWS: And they wanted to reduce the supply.

Anyway, thanks, Pete Williams, as always.

WILLIAMS: You bet.

MATTHEWS: Just after news of the court`s ruling broke, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton tweeted the following: "SCOTUS` decision is a victory for women in Texas and across America. Safe abortion should be a right, not just on paper, but in reality."

She also tweeted this: "This fight isn`t over. The next president has to protect women`s health. Women won`t be punished" -- that`s a word that she took from Donald Trump, of course -- "for exercising their basic rights."

Joining me right now is Cecile Richards, the president of Planned Parenthood.

Thank you.

Congratulations, I guess, is in order, because the decision clearly supports Roe v. Wade.


This was a really important decision for women of Texas, but women all across the country. And it was so refreshing to have the court really focus on the impact on women. As you said, the state had claimed that these laws were actually out there to protect the health and safety of women, but they did just the opposite.

And I think the other thing that`s really important is that now very highly qualified medical doctors who had been prevented under this law from providing care to women will be able to do that once again. It`s a really important win.

MATTHEWS: Is this an election issue this year? I look at the two candidates, and we are all going to be students of Hillary Clinton. We have been that for years, but now Donald Trump. Is there a decision, a real one, when you look at both these people? Do you really believe Donald Trump is pro-life, for example? Do you think he is?

RICHARDS: All I can say is, I read what he says, and one of the most -- there are two very disturbing things that Donald Trump has said, one, of course, that he wants to punish women who have had abortions.

And the other is -- and I think this is so important for today`s decision - - that he would appoint justices who would overturn Roe vs. Wade. This is a very relevant decision. And what we have found from voters, not only women voters, but men as well, they consider Roe vs. Wade established law. This is a right that women have, and we are not going to go backwards.

Donald Trump would like to take us back to the 1950s, and I just don`t think this country is going.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, do you have any reservations about Tim Kaine, the senator, former governor of Virginia, as a possible running mate for Hillary Clinton? Do you have any reservations yourself?

RICHARDS: There are a lot of folks who have been discussed, Chris, and I think the exciting thing about this election is Hillary Clinton has been four-square and the Democratic platform as well on being completely supportive not only of Planned Parenthood, but of the right to abortion by women. They have committed to overturn the Hyde amendment, which is tremendous.

MATTHEWS: How does that relate to my question?

RICHARDS: Well, in what -- the way it relates is I believe that -- and I expect that whoever she chooses as her running mate will support her position and support the position of the Democratic Party.

And that`s very exciting and important. And I think it`s going to be a defining issue for folks in this election.


MATTHEWS: Are you saying that you believe the platform would control the policy stances of the vice presidential nominee? That`s why you`re not concerned?

RICHARDS: I just expect that whoever she chooses as a running mate will be four-square with her on the positions she`s taken on women`s health, women`s rights, abortion access and Planned Parenthood.

MATTHEWS: OK. I get where you`re coming from.

Thank you so much, Cecile Richards. And, again, congratulations for the courts.

I really think Justice Kennedy is amazing. And I think we should find out what that DNA is and make sure it survives him on the court.

RICHARDS: It was a big decision, yes.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, yes, thank you so much. RICHARDS: Thanks a lot.

MATTHEWS: Up next: Hillary Clinton seizes on Trump`s Brexit comments, trying to paint him as only in it for himself. By the way, that`s not too hard to do after what he said about: My golf courses benefiting from the fact Brexit that just won.

That`s a strange thing to make in a presidential run.

Anyway, the HARDBALL roundtable is coming up to talk about Brexit, Trump and Hillary Clinton`s amazing attack on him today, alongside her new apparent, at least for the day, running mate, Elizabeth Warren.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The Clintons have turned the politics of personal enrichment into an art form for themselves.


They`ve made hundreds of millions of dollars selling access, selling favors, selling government contracts, and I mean hundreds of millions of dollars.



That was Donald Trump earlier this month, accusing Bill and Hillary Clinton of looking out for their own financial interests before the good of the country. And now, the tables have turned after Trump appeared to celebrate -- that`s a word I believe he did celebrate -- the financial turbulence created by the Brexit vote, saying that Britain`s declining currency would be good for his business.

Here`s how the Clinton campaign seized on Trump`s remarks with a new ad airing this week.


AD ANNOUNCER: Every president is tested by world events, but Donald Trump thinks about how his golf resort can profit from them.

TRUMP: When the pound goes down, more people are coming to Turnberry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TV ANCHOR: Stocks tank around the world.

TRUMP: Brand new sprinkler system, the highest level.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TV ANCHOR: He`s talking about his new sprinkler system.

AD ANNOUNCER: In a volatile world, the last thing we need is a volatile president.


MATTHEWS: Well, joining me for tonight`s roundtable, I`m glad to be back to the roundtable after a week off, is April Ryan, especially bad, where did that come from? -- happy to be back here.


MATTHEWS: White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks -- why did I say bad?


MATTHEWS: David Corn, MSNBC political analyst and Washington bureau chief for "Mother Jones", and veering off to the right, Carol Lee is White House reporter for the "Wall Street Journal" but from the news pages, not from the editorial pages.

Let me ask you about this crazy Trump, because sometimes he says something and catches reality. Little touch of reality. Then he goes completely off. What is he talking about saying this Turnberry golf course is going to make more money because of the drop in the British pound? A whole country loses. He says that`s OK, because it helps me up here in this golf course of mine.

It doesn`t show presidential anything.


MATTHEWS: Can you answer this one question? Why did he do it?

CORN: The one thing Donald Trump seems to care about more than anything else in the entire world is Donald Trump. When Orlando happened, he talked about people are telling me I got it right. When there`s a crisis in Britain, it`s like how it`s going to affect him.

MATTHEWS: And when a judge he thinks is going to rule against him.

CORN: He sees the whole world through this lens of Donald Trump.

MATTHEWS: Somebody said today, Carol, this is a Wall Street term, notion, that he is the brand Trump. So, even when the brand Trump deals with a personal financial thing, that`s the same entity. So, when I`m running for president, it`s the brand Trump. It`s always the brand Trump.

You know what I mean? The glamorous family, everything is the brand, the building he comes out of, he does everything out of Trump Tower, he does it from golf courses, his press conference at Mar-a-Lago. Everything is the one -- that`s kind of a weird way of looking at the presidency.

CAROL LEE, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: He`s also just wired differently than people are used to seeing running for president. He`s a businessman, he`s not a politician and he has --

MATTHEWS: Yes, but right now, he`s a politician.

LEE: I know but he`s not yet made that transition. And so you keep seeing, he will do the teleprompter speech, then you see him resort back to just speaking off the cuff.

MATTHEWS: Could it be because he`s footing the bill for this campaign, most of it, he feels he has a right to promote his brand, that he ought to make some money off this thing?

CORN: He`s not making money. He`s losing money.

RYAN: You know what the issue is? He`s trying to do it all now before, if he does become president, and when he has to put everything in that blind trust and have other people --


CORN: He doesn`t have to.

RYAN: Wait a minute. How is he going to run for president and become president and be president and try to run his place in Scotland and New York --

MATTHEWS: OK. Here`s a question for you -- how come he`s gotten away with not releasing his tax returns?

RYAN: Because he doesn`t have to, because it`s not by law.

CORN: Listen, to your point, we said this a week or two back, he has over $100 million, $200 million in loans from Deutsch Bank. He would be a president of the United States who owes all this money to a foreign bank and he doesn`t have to put any of it into blind trusts if he doesn`t want to. So, you have all these --


MATTHEWS: Let`s go, Hillary Clinton has been great on the attack today. Elizabeth Warren is a great pistol-popping whatever. She knows how to shoot and she shoots right from the gut.

RYAN: Be careful with that analogy right now.


RYAN: Guns.

MATTHEWS: OK. Didn`t mean that.

RYAN: You`re all right. Go ahead.

MATTHEWS: I will try to use a better metaphor. Boy, she can pack a punch.


MATTHEWS: She`s really going after this guy in a way that Hillary -- I watched Hillary today. I`m a student of Hillary, like we all are, laughing with joy that her traveling partner, this woman who can do it better than her, does it so well with such joy, you know?

LEE: That`s the best way, if you are a politician to deliver a criticism is not to seem like angry and to have fun with it. They seemed to be doing that today.

MATTHEWS: You know, FDR, when he destroyed his opponent, Tom Dewey and Kennedy, they went after Nixon. They loved doing and they destroyed their opponents as they laughed.

LEE: And it`s the most effective way to deliver a punch.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Hillary Clinton had a big day today, as did Elizabeth Warren, who I think is running for V.P., even if Hillary doesn`t really intend to pick up her. It was clear that she wants to be picked up. Am I right?

CORN: Well, I think this was an audition.

MATTHEWS: Audition, well said.

The roundtable is sticking with us.

Up next, these people tell me something I don`t know.

An audition, you think it`s really an open audition?


MATTHEWS: Well, the Democrats on the House Select Committee on Benghazi, remember that, issued a 340-page report today. It`s meant to be a prebuttal of sorts to the upcoming account of Trey Gowdy and the other Republicans on the committee, the majority members.

Anyway, according to Democrats, quote, "in our opinion, Chairman Gowdy has been conducting this investigation like an overzealous prosecutor desperately trying to land a front page conviction rather than a neutral judge of facts seeking to improve the security of our diplomatic corps."

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

And, April, tell me something I don`t know. I did say bad, by the way, to start the show.

RYAN: You meant glad.

MATTHEWS: OK. I`m the man for bad and a man from glad.

RYAN: Oh, my goodness. Either way, something that you don`t know -- over the weekend, I was on "A.M. JOY", and we were talking about Tim Kaine-mania possibly the one who is going to be picked by Hillary Clinton.

After I got off the show, I got an e-mail right away from a congressional leader who just talked to Elizabeth Warren last week. He said, "I`m going to tell you something, HRC is going to pick Elizabeth Warren." I said, "Why?" I had to call them. Basically because she has some kind of something from the campaign that she feels she`s in line.

MATTHEWS: Yes, she`s been vetted, according to records. So, it would be real. Maybe we are. Maybe Hillary hasn`t made up her mind yet.

RYAN: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Hillary Clinton.

CORN: Big case today on abortion.

MATTHEWS: Huge case.

CORN: Five-three win for the pro-choice side, saying that this Texas law was too restrictive. Of course, Clarence Thomas dissented and, of course, he went to great extremes to say this shows that the court is basically kaput, doesn`t believe in the law.

He ended up with this quote, "We have passed the point where law has any further application." Now, the interesting thing is those aren`t his words. He cited that quotation. It was from Antonin Scalia. So, even on this day --

MATTHEWS: He survives.

CORN: -- Scalia is there in the courtroom.

MATTHEWS: The ghost of Scalia.

Anyway, Carol Lee?

LEE: So, the president is going to Warsaw next week for the NATO Summit and look for him to forge new E.U. NATO collaboration to try to mitigate any of the security measures cooperation they might lose if and when --

MATTHEWS: I never thought of the security end of things.

Thank you, April Ryan. Thank you, David Corn. And thank you, Carol Lee.

LEE: Sure.

MATTHEWS: When we return, let me finish with the danger of ignoring of what just happened across the Atlantic. I`ve got a big thought about that, I think.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with this:

I think we should pay attention to what just happened across the Atlantic. I think there`s a lesson there for us Americans about the current mood in this world. So much of what we heard about Britain`s move to divorce itself from continental Europe sounds very much like what we`re hearing from interviews in places like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan, older industrial areas, much like those in Great Britain who voted against the advice of their supposed intellectual betters.

For years, these people have been told by the better people that free trade policies were good for them, and immigration and cultural change were good for them, that they should just settle down and accept their station in life and accept the fact that the better people would look out for their interest.

Well, they sat and listened, didn`t they? They heard all the smart, well- educated establishment types tell them that they should go along with what`s been happening to them.

And then, one day the head of the conservative party in the United Kingdom got scared and said if the people let him keep his job at the top, he would let vote at bottom. Well, they just did. And as I said, there are real, genuine similarities to what we`re hearing from states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, we`re hearing that they are in the mood to say no, not in this case to membership in the European community, of course, but membership in a political for which they see little benefitting them.

So, if you`re with the half of this country that doesn`t figure to vote for Trump or two-thirds who believe he`s simply not qualified for the office, don`t assume this election is over just yet. With all his obvious faults, with all his obvious failings as a presidential candidate, much less as a plausible candidate, keep in mind the message Trump is delivering, like those who fought and won the battle of Britain, he talks about this country and how it`s getting shoved around, not just by other countries but its own elites. He speaks about jobs lost to foreign trade deals, of illegal immigration, and he touches of the same deep-seated anger that drove the country of Winston Churchill from the Europe Britain had twice fought so gallantly to liberate.

Trump may be foolish about in things but when he speaks of fighting for this country, he`s not on a fool`s errand nor should Hillary Clinton ever presume he is.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.