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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 5/27/2016

Guests: Ann Coulter, Richard Fowler, Jennifer Jacobs, Ken Vogel, Bob Shrum, Artie Muller

Show: HARDBALL Date: May 27, 2016 Guest: Ann Coulter, Richard Fowler, Jennifer Jacobs, Ken Vogel, Bob Shrum,  Artie Muller CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST:  Border war. Let`s play HARDBALL. Good evening.  I`m Chris Matthews in Washington. Well, the Trump tempest roared into San Diego today, bringing thousands of  protesters along with it.  You`re looking at footage right now of those  protests outside the convention hall where Donald Trump just wrapped up his  rally, at least four major groups of organized demonstrations against  Trump, including the San Diego Democratic Party. Well, police shut streets and attempted to separate Trump supporters from  his detractors, but there were clashes like this one between protesters and  the police.  Police have begun making arrests.  More than 10,000 people packed into the auditorium to hear Trump speak, and  the line to get in stretched for blocks.  Trump told the crowd he was going  to build a wall, of course, between United States and Mexico.  He also said  he was going to do great with Latinos and African-Americans.  Let`s watch  that part. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  We`re going to build  the wall!  We`re going to build the wall!  We`re going to build the wall.

Latinos for Trump!  I love you!  You know... AUDIENCE:  Build the wall!  Build the wall!  Build the wall! TRUMP:  Build the wall!  We`re going to do great with the Latinos because  I`m going to -- I`m bringing back jobs!  The Latinos, African-Americans --  we`re doing great with African-Americans!  They want jobs!  We`re losing  our jobs to everybody! I started talking about illegal immigration, tremendous problem.  I don`t  think this would be a problem that would even be discussed, frankly, if we  didn`t do it and put it as part of our campaign. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS:  NBC`s Katy Tur and Jacob Rascon are in San Diego.  I`m also  joined by MSNBC`s Joy Reid, the host of the new great show "AM Joy" -- well  named -- and author Ann Coulter.  Thank you all for joining us.  And I guess we start with the reporters.  Katy -- I`m now hearing feedback.

I just love the hear it.  Katy -- that echo notwithstanding.  Let`s talk  about this issue.  The big crowd -- how would you rate Trump`s crowd today? KATY TUR, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Unfortunately, Chris, I am going to guess  that you stopped talking because I can`t hear you any longer. But here`s what`s going on right now.  There are thousands of protesters  that are here.  The police were trying to keep the Trump supporters  separate from the protesters.  By doing that, they made the Trump  supporters, 10,000 of them inside, file out the back door of the convention  center.  But as you can see down in the distance, underneath the "Historic heart of  San Diego" sign, a number of Trump supporters went all the way around into  the Gaslight district to where the protesters are. A moment or two ago, we saw a number of fights break out, punches being  thrown, arrests being made.  Thousands of protesters here, many of them  peaceful, some here to look for a fight.  Some tried to break through  barricades to confront cops, getting pushed back down.  But San Diego was at the ready for anything, any sort of confrontation.

They`ve got riot police here.  They`ve got SWAT police, who had been lining  the convention center.  Now, though, many of those SWAT police are still  there, but a number of other high (ph) tactical police down in the melee  itself, trying to keep order. But again, Chris, what they were trying to do here was they were trying to  keep the supporters of Donald Trump and the protesters separate.  Most of  the time, when there is an issue, it`s when the two sides come together.

So they tried -- slightly successful, slightly unsuccessful, as you see.

We`ll see if anything else happens as this day unfolds.  Back to you. MATTHEWS:  Well, you know, it`s been called a clash.  I guess I use this  word, too.  But what I`m looking at here is police in a stationary position  and people throwing stuff at them.  Is that a clash?  Can you hear me, Katy? Well, let`s go to Jacob Rascon.  We`ll get better sound equipment here.

Let`s go to Jacob Rascon. This looks to me, the way Katy described it, the protesters want to get to  the Trump people, and the police are trying to do their job and keeping  them from doing so.  I don`t see that as a clash.  I see somebody doing  their job.  But go on. JACOB RASCON, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  We see this, Chris, almost every time it  gets really bad.  This is what happens.  The protesters stick around  through the rally, and then the Trump supporters, who you`ll see right  here, are let out, usually by another way.  And then the protesters who are  still around, usually the ones who are more prone to want to pick a fight,  are the ones who are over here, for example, trying to find the supporters.  As Katy said, we had a number of fights break out.  We had moments ago  three people walk past us in handcuffs.  And as you`re going to see here,  you have more protesters who are now crossing the street, and they are  trying to get over to the Trump supporters.  So best laid plans.  San Diego police has been really on top of this with  the barricades, with the buffer zones, 100, 200 feet.  But this is what  can`t really be controlled, is after everything is over, and the Trump  supporters and protester go their separate ways and simply try to meet  somewhere else.  And then the clashes happen.  That`s what we saw in Albuquerque.  That`s what we saw in Chicago.  That`s  what we saw in a lot of areas.  It`s what -- it`s best laid plans, they  work until after the rally is finished.  That`s what we`re seeing out here,  Chris. MATTHEWS:  And Jacob, you`ve been great at this.  By the way, your  reporting`s been great.  I just want to -- have you been able to hear from  any of the -- I mean, a crowd is made up of individuals.  There are  individual people in that crowd.  They may be behaving like a crowd, but individually, have any of them told  you -- is it that they don`t like the bad trash talk from Trump about  rapists?  They don`t like the wall talk?  What is it they don`t like?  They  don`t like the deportations, probably.  I`ve seen some of those signs. RASCON:  Yes, the wall is one of the big issues.  And of course, we`re 20  minutes away from the border right now, Chris.  In Albuquerque, that was  the big issue, as well.  The talk of deporting the illegal immigrants, as  Trump says, that gets at them. But what we have found, and we found it here, is that once the organized  protesters, the four or five groups who came -- very organized, very  prepared -- once they left, what we started to see were those who were  angrier stick around.  And they started to shout not only "F Donald Trump,"  but "F the police, F the police." And we saw, and I think you showed some of the video earlier, it was almost  as soon as the organized protesters left that we saw the angry ones climb  up and try to actually get past police.  And that`s when they were hit with  the baton, hit with the baton, and then the entire crowd turned on the  police and started to shout, "F the police."  And then what`s when we saw  the SWAT officers. (INAUDIBLE) turn over here and see this. MATTHEWS:  Yes, watching -- we`re watching... RASCON:  You`re seeing on the left side, Chris -- you`re seeing some Trump  supporters.  And then on the right side, you`re going to see the Trump  protesters.  This is what has happened many times.  The barricades are put  in place.  Everything`s prepared.  It works for hours, and then after the  rally, they find a way to meet each other. TRUMP SUPPORTERS:  USA!  USA!  USA! MATTHEWS:  So here we`re hearing "USA!" from the American -- well, the  people taking the conservative view, let`s put it that way, the ones with  the U.S. flags.  This is some -- it looks to me like they want to stick  around and taunt a little bit, too, the pro-Trump people.  Is that going  on, as well? TRUMP SUPPORTERS:  USA!  USA!  USA! RASCON:  Chris, I`m going to be honest, it`s very hard to hear your  questions. MATTHEWS:  Yes. RASCON:  But again, I`m going to tell you... TRUMP SUPPORTERS:  USA!  USA!  USA! RASCON:  ... what you`re looking at are the Trump supporters in the "Make  America great again" hats.  Usually, they come out of the rally and they`re  riled (ph) up, and they`ve just been with Trump for an hour.  They`re very  excited.  They`re very eager to talk about protesters.  A lot of times,  Trump talks about the protesters in the rally.  They`re excited when  (INAUDIBLE) What we`re seeing now, there are no police officers in between.  There`s no  buffer zone in between the Trump supporters and the protesters.  Again,  this is where it gets messy. MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, take care.  Take care of yourself there, Jacob.

We`ll be back to you and Katy in a minute.  We`re going to bring in our commentators, Joy Reid and Ann Coulter.  Joy  Reid first, my colleague, what do you see here?  What does it mean to you? JOY REID, HOST, "AM JOY":  You know, Chris, I think that this is the shape  of things to come.  I think that we are going to have a long, hot summer  leading into a fall campaign that is going to break down along this very  fault line because I think that immigration and unlawful migration was sort  of the casus belli of the Trump war against the Republican Party and  against Republican elites.  It was the straw that broke the camel`s back in  terms of the bargain that Republican elites have for 30, 40, 50 years made  particularly with working class white voters.  You give us your votes,  we`ll get low taxes for ourselves and deregulation.  And we`ll give you  sort of cultural tschotchkes.  We`ll say we`re with you on prayer in  school, religion. MATTHEWS:  OK... REID:  We`re with you on gay marriage.  But when it came to immigration  reform, something that George W. Bush wanted to do, something that the  Republican National Committee saw as a way to expand the Republican  electorate by bringing in Latinos -- that was it.  And I think Trump ran  right into that breach.  He has got these votes. This is their issue.  This is the fundamental issue that animates support  for Donald Trump... MATTHEWS:  Yes. REID:  ... this idea that... MATTHEWS:  Well, what -- what... REID:  ... we are taking this country from them. MATTHEWS:  Who else is stopping illegal immigration?  Who else is doing  anything to stop illegal immigration?  (INAUDIBLE) anywhere doing it, to  stop it? REID:  Well, I can tell you that at the moment, net migration from  Mexico... MATTHEWS:  No, no!  Who`s doing anything... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  I know.  I know.  I know the arguments.  I know. REID:  ... zero, right?  So... MATTHEWS:  That`s not an answer, though, Joy.  What in the law -- who is  coming up with a way with (ph) enforcing the law?  Is anybody? REID:  Well, I think if you ask advocates for the dreamers, et cetera, they  would point very angrily at the White House and say that the Obama  administration, which has had more deportations than George W. Bush ever  did -- they`ve been very aggressive, ICE has, about deporting people from  the country. So the administration, actually, right now has been the sort of tip of the  spear of being extremely aggressive.  And in addition to the fact that the  economics have reduced migration to zero, I think a lot of particularly  younger activists actually are pretty angry at the Obama administration for  the way that... MATTHEWS:  I know they are. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  I can understand different sides here, and I can also understand  that nobody`s come up with -- it`s the one part of our legal system, one  part of our social system where no one`s come up a connection between the  law that we pass and enforcement.  OK, pass the most liberal program in the world for bringing people into the  country, and then enforce it.  I don`t hear Democrats or progressives  talking about enforcement of any kind, for any kind of law, no matter how  liberal it is, Joy.  That`s my problem, that you can`t have a legislature  in Washington that`s controlling the country, representing the people, that  can`t seem to pass any law on immigration they`re willing to enforce.

That`s the problem. REID:  Well, the reality is, though, that Democrats actually did get a law  through.  I mean, you have a bill that the Republican House of  Representatives... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  What did that do to stop illegal immigration?  Would that have  stopped -- would that have stopped illegal immigration? REID:  A lot of advocates for the dreamers, et cetera, feel that the law  was actually too heavy on enforcement and that the balance of enforcement  versus admittance was actually weighted on the side too much of punishment.

Democrats and some Republicans, to their credit... MATTHEWS:  OK... REID:  ... people like John McCain, tried to get that law passed, but  Republicans wouldn`t allow it.  MATTHEWS:  I know. REID:  They won`t allow immigration reform to get through the Senate and  the House.  They just won`t allow it. MATTHEWS:  OK, I hear the words "immigration reform," I`ve heard the word  "reform" all my life, and I`m a little skeptical whether "reform" means fix  the problem, if you think there is a problem. Ann Coulter, I think there`s a disagreement here, and it`s pretty profound,  between people who think illegal immigration`s a problem and those who  don`t.  They say, We`ll live with it.  People come in here.  We`ll take  care of them (INAUDIBLE) best (INAUDIBLE) assimilate if we can.  If we  can`t, we`ll just live with it. I don`t hear Democrats out beating the drum to fix a problem of illegal  immigration.  I don`t hear it.  I don`t hear Republicans stopping illegal  hiring for one second or one cent wanting to stop the illegal hiring. ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE AUTHOR AND COLUMNIST:  No.  You just had it  exactly right.  Who are the other Republicans who want to enforce laws that  were passed and are on the books?  Well, there`s one in the Senate, Jeff  Sessions.  There are about five in the House, and that`s pretty much it.  You have 100 percent of Democrats and 95 percent of Republicans who are  indignant that the public wants written federal laws on the books enforced.

That is some sort of extremist position! Well, OK, if you want open borders, pass a law for open borders.  But in  fact, both Republicans and Democrats have contrived, have gotten together  and tried to pass amnesties three times in the last 10 years, at least  twice being supported by the president and the majority party in both  houses.  And how did it get shut down?  By the American people rising up in a rage!

And I mean, the unfortunate thing about these protests you`re showing,  which really do make me so angry because there were 10,000 people inside  the stadium tonight -- the reports are it was one of the most diverse  crowds anyone has ever seen.  You have Mandarin Chinese with signs for  Trump, "Make America great again" written in Mandarin. MATTHEWS:  Yes. COULTER:  You have groups, huge groups of Hispanics, and they`re all  chanting "Build the wall" because you got it right before when you slipped  and said something about the protesters versus the Trump supporters and you  called the Trump supporters the Americans.  They are the Americans! MATTHEWS:  That was a slip.  No, first of all, that was a slip.  I was  looking at the American flags against the Mexican flags.  And it was a  slip.  And I tell you... COULTER:  But they are... MATTHEWS:  ... I don`t know, I assume most of the people... COULTER:  ... standing for being Americans... MATTHEWS:  ... there are Americans... COULTER:  ... whether they`re Mandarin... MATTHEWS:  But I assume most of the Hispanic people there are Americans or  they wouldn`t be out protesting. COULTER:  No, but whether they are Hispanic or Mandarin, the ones inside  the stadium are Americans and think of themselves as Americans and want the  laws enforced!  And it`s just unbelievable... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  You caught it.  It was a slip.  I mean, it wasn`t intentional.

I can tell you.  Let me go to Katy Tur right now.  Katy, what are we doing?  What`s going on  right now? I can`t hear anything.  What`s going on?  We can`t hear... TUR:  Well, right now, right in this melee, this crowd right now, there`s  two people who are going at it debating the merits of the wall.  And what  you have is the protesters on this side and you have the Donald Trump  supporters on the other side.  There`s a Confederate flag, as well as some  American flags and Mexican flags here. This scene has been playing out in city across city.  And you might think  that the Donald Trump campaign would be unnerved by this.  But the reality  is, when I`ve had private conversations with a number of their aides, they  say this sort of thing only helps their cause.  It only helps their  message.  These images are images that gird his supporters, that embolden  them, that make his supporters like him more because they feel that he is  being -- standing up for their rights, instead of backing down to what they  call PC culture.  Right now, we have riot police behind me who are trying to move the line.

They have their batons out.  They`re trying to push these protesters back.

It`s really not working very well, frankly. MATTHEWS:  This is terrible.  We`re going to keep covering this... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  I hope it doesn`t get any better.  (sic) I mean, this is  terrible, what`s going on right now. TUR:  ... right this way. MATTHEWS:  Confederate flags, American flags Mexican flags.  This -- I`m  going to stick with this.  Jacob Rascon, are you there and reachable?  Is  the sound working with you?  We can`t get to Jacob.  I`d rather get back to  the action here. Joy, your thoughts here about this.  American flags, Confederate flag now  showing, Mexican flags -- I never thought the Mexican flags was a  particularly good public relations move here by the protesters.  But your  thoughts. REID:  Well, I think that -- and I think Ann really sort of got to it.  A  person who was a Trump supporter landlocked in Indiana or in West Virginia  is not concerned about Mexican migrants pouring over the southern border.

That isn`t the point.  It is a symbol for a larger context, which is what I call demographic  panic, this notion that "they," in scare quotes, are taking away the  country from "us," in scare quotes, this idea that there is an ethnic sort  of war being waged against people who consider themselves more legitimately  America.  This is old America versus new America, and I think that  symbolically... MATTHEWS:  Well, you think that`s true? REID:  I do.  I think... MATTHEWS:  You think people were here legally -- let`s just try the law  question.  I know it`s ethnic, but -- people who`ve been here a generation  or two legally, even if their parents came not that way, do you think  people don`t think of them as Americans? REID:  I do.  I think that if you look at polling, particularly of Trump  supporters, they overestimate the percentage of Hispanics who are in the  country illegally.  They think it`s like 70 percent, when it`s like 15  percent, right?  They think and perceive people who are of Hispanic  heritage as being illegitimately in the country.  If they hear someone  speaking Spanish... MATTHEWS:  Well, they`re voting.  That can`t be the case. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  ... percent of the electorate is Latino. REID:  Right.  And they believe that if they`re voting, they`re voting  illegally and they`re sneaking into the polls and they believe if they`re  speaking Spanish, they`re violating some sort of compact with the rest  America.  There is a sense of demographic panic that`s taking place... MATTHEWS:  Yes. REID:  ... as the younger generations are more and the more non-white.  And  let`s just be frank.  "Illegal immigration," quote, unquote, unlawful  migration is a symbol for demographic panic.  And that is what Donald Trump  is stoking. MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Well, I made that same mistake myself tonight, looking at  the American flags and saying "the Americans."  What a terrible mistake.  I  apologize for that to everybody.  I mean it. COULTER:  But it isn`t!  As I told you, they have Mandarins in the  audience.  They have Hispanics in the audience! MATTHEWS:  OK, I didn`t see all those, Ann. (CROSSTALK) REID:  Asian-Americans. COULTER:  ... exactly the opposite demographic panic!  It has nothing to do  with demographics! REID:  It`s called Asian-Americans, Ann.  Asian-Americans... COULTER:  It has nothing to do with... REID:  ... not Mandarins. COULTER:  It has nothing to do with -- with -- with demographics. REID:  That`s throwback language.  It`s not 1913.  They`re called Asian- Americans, not Mandarins. COULTER:  Anyway, I was saying it has nothing to do with demographics.  It  has to do with whether you are here legally or illegally, whether you  consider yourself an American, whether the laws on the books are going to  be enforced!  We are having an invasion of people... REID:  But if... COULTER:  ... across the southern border... MATTHEWS:  OK... (CROSSTALK) REID:  If your default in discussing Asian-Americans is to call people  "Mandarins"... MATTHEWS:  I think we`re... (CROSSTALK) REID:  ... not bringing back arcane language here, Ann.  Let`s just... MATTHEWS:  OK... REID:  ... talk about people as Americans, Asian-Americans.  That`s the... COULTER:  No!  You`re not going to police my language!  They are Mandarins! (CROSSTALK) COULTER:  It`s written in Mandarin! MATTHEWS:  I think somebody just said and I agree with, which is if you  consider yourself American, you are. Anyway, my thanks to Katy Tur and Jacob Rascon on the ground in San Diego.

Joy Reid and Ann Coulter, thank you for that. Coming up, the Democratic playbook.  Donald Trump has defied all  expectations in his candidacy so far, but he`s also brought together  Democrats in the fight against him.  How do Democrats like Hillary Clinton,  Barack Obama, Elizabeth Warren unite in a winning strategy against Trump?

That`s going to be something. Plus, on the eve of this Memorial Day weekend, I`m going to speak with  Vietnam veteran Artie Muller (ph) as his motorcycle event, Rolling Thunder,  rolls into the capital -- the nation`s capital right here around me and  also talk about their invited guest to Rolling Thunder who`s not -- well,  his name is Donald Trump. We`ve also got the HARDBALL roundtable tonight coming here, and they`ll  tell me something I don`t know this Friday evening. And finally, "Let Me Finish" tonight by paying tribute to an unusual hero  of the equality movement.  And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS:  Well, Marco Rubio has emerged from hibernation, after bowing out  of the Republican presidential race back in March. And he`s vowing to do all he can to prevent Hillary Clinton from becoming  president.  Earlier today, Rubio tweeted -- quote -- "In Florida, only two  legitimate candidates on the ballot in November.  I won`t vote for Clinton.

And after years of asking people to vote, I won`t abstain.  If you can live  with a Clinton presidency for four years, that`s your right.  I can`t and  will do what I can to prevent it." As far as Rubio`s political future goes, he said he doesn`t expect to run  for reelection in what could become a vulnerable GOP Senate seat in Florida  this November.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)  (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  It was bad enough when  he started his campaign in his very first hour criticizing and insulting  immigrants.  You know.

He called immigrants rapists, murderers, criminals.  It was disgraceful.

And then he went onto insult women, to insult John McCain, a war hero, to  insult, to make fun of a man with a disability, to denigrate Muslims.

Honest to goodness, there`s nobody left by the time he gets finished.


That was Hillary Clinton last night in California blasting Donald Trump, of  course, whom she hopes to face in the general election.  But before that,  she must first finish off, if you will, Bernie Sanders, who is mounting a  very aggressive challenge ahead of the California primary coming up on June  7. Chris Jansing covers the Sanders campaign for NBC News. Chris, what`s happening?  You`re not where the action is right now, this  awful stuff going on in San Diego right now.

  CHRIS JANSING, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  I know.  I`m just hanging out over the  Pacific Ocean.  And I`m listening to what`s going on there.  And I`m  thinking, we thought the Democrats had a lot going on. And, actually, to be fair, they do.  The last 24 hours have been dominated  by this back and forth over whether or not Bernie Sanders would actually  debate Donald Trump.  They were talking about the biggest stadium in  California and getting the networks to pay millions of dollars, how many  millions of people would watch it.  Would it be the biggest debate in the  history of debates?

And, of course, in the end, after saying he would, then he wouldn`t and  then he would, Donald Trump late this afternoon puts out a statement and  says, look, it looks like Bernie Sanders is in second place.  I`m not going  to debate the second-place person.

What it did do was obviously, though, was really tweak Hillary Clinton at a  time when was once a double-digit lead here in California has dwindled to  within the margin of error.  Last couple of polls had them two and three  points apart.

In the end, look, you know what the numbers are, Chris.  This isn`t going  to change the outcome of this.  What it would do, if Bernie Sanders wins  here, is give him some more momentum going into that convention.  He`s  already won these delegates on the platform drafting committee.

But they want more.  And when I say they, his supporters, who I talked to  again this morning south of Los Angeles.  They want him to continue to  push, push Hillary Clinton to the left.  They have got some issues that are  key for them, things like the $15 minimum wage.

So, this is really a fight here.  They`re both up on the air on television.


JANSING:  Both of them are having all of these events.  And they think that  by the time the 7th comes around, Bernie Sanders could have had 250,000  people to events here in California -- Chris.  MATTHEWS:  Chris Jansing from beautiful California right there on the  water.  What a shot.  Thank you so much, Chris, for that reporting.

Assuming that she will be the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton is  throwing everything she has at Republican Donald Trump already.  But will  any of these attacks stick?  Great question. Bob Shrum is a veteran Democratic strategist OK.  And Ron Reagan is an  MSNBC political analyst. OK.  Here we go.

Bob Shrum, Donald Trump goes after Hillary Clinton on everything.  I think  he basically goes after her.  He is after the Vince Foster story, accusing  them of hanky-panky or mayhem or whatever the hell he`s accusing them of  these days, going back to Whitewater, digging up some more dirt on that  apparently, having his research staff dig that up. Everything he throws at her, and it keeps her busy.  I guess that`s his  strategy.  Just have her always on defense.

BOB SHRUM, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Well, she`s not on defense.  I think  she`s doing a very good job of going after him.

What she wants to do is define him going into the general election.  He`s  helping by what he says at all these rallies.  I do hope that they  supplement this with a real positive advertising campaign for her before  the convention, because she needs to reconnect with people.  They need to  have a better understanding of her.

And then, in the acceptance speech, which is the only unmediated  communication that`s watched by tens of millions of people, she needs to be  able to deal with the stereotypes about her, not by refuting them  specifically, but demonstrating qualities of leadership, empathy, the  capacity to connect with people.

MATTHEWS:  How about the trustworthiness one?  Would you address that  personally?  Would you take that on?

SHRUM:  You can`t address trustworthy by saying, I`m trustworthy.  You have  to demonstrate it.

But I think, if people see her in an acceptance speech, where they`re  really listening to her, and they believe her, they believe that she means  what she says, that will begin to change that number.

Look, Al Gore moved about 17 points in an acceptance speech in 47 minutes  in 2000.  So, I think that`s the challenge she faces.

MATTHEWS:  Ron, what do you think of this?  You haven`t been on lately.

So, I`m wondering what your big thoughts are about this.  Look, Hillary  Clinton is running for the nomination.  It looks like Bernie Sanders could  knock her off in California.  He could win the last round even after she`s  -- it`s going to be like the War of 1812.  The last battle comes about  after the war is decided.  But it`s not going to be clear-cut at all, it  looks like. RON REAGAN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR:  No.

I mean, listen, if Bernie Sanders takes California, that`s a big chunk of  delegates.  It`s winner-take-all there.  He could nearly catch her.  I  haven`t done the math just recently, but he could nearly catch her in terms  of pledged delegates.

But she still -- she needs to be pivoting towards Trump.  She`s still the  presumptive nominee.  And she needs Bernie Sanders` supporters, of course,  to be on board with her.  So, she can`t waste her time attacking Bernie  Sanders.  She has to assume that she`s going to be nominee, play nice with  him.

Elizabeth Warren, the possibilities of her as a V.P. choice, that would be  very pleasing for the Sanders supporters, one would assume.  Now, Elizabeth  Warren has been doing a great job going after Trump on Twitter.

MATTHEWS:  Well, that`s the great question.

Bob, you first, and then Ron on that, because I watched the 2000 race you  mentioned, and I watched Ralph Nader running as the third-party candidate.

He was getting up about nine points, pushing almost to double digits.  Gore  had to move over to the left to catch him.  He got him down to three  points, not enough, of course, because of Florida. But he got him down, but at the cost of moving away from the center.  Can  Hillary Clinton risk going over to the left to try to match Bernie?  Will  she lose the center? SHRUM:  I don`t think in 2000 we moved to the left.  The truth of the  matter is that we went after Nader on -- with advertising.

(CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  But you joined him in his critique of the corporate country, the  corporate America, didn`t you?  SHRUM:  No.  No.  No.

Gore had his own critique of what was going on.  He certainly wasn`t  repeating what Nader said.  Look, I think there`s a basis here for Sanders  and Clinton to get together.  I think it involves a reform of the  nominating process and I think it also involves some platform  accommodations.

But in New York, she basically endorsed the $15-an-hour minimum wage.  I  don`t think this is going to be as tough as we commentators and people in  the media make it out to be.  I think he`s going to come on board.  He said  she`s clearly better than Donald Trump.

And I think he is going to help to bring his people around just as she  helped to bring her people around in 2008.

(CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  I didn`t understand you.  When you say we -- won`t be as tough  as we commentators, you mean you`re saying it`s not going to be tough, but  I`m saying it`s going to be tough, so the we doesn`t really apply here,  right? (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS:  What do you mean by that we?

(CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  No, what it means is, I`m wrong and you`re right is what you`re  really saying.

SHRUM:  No.  What I mean is the media love this fight and assume there will  be a fight.

MATTHEWS:  Stop talking about media.

(CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS:  OK.  You`re on the air as a commentator.  OK?  You`re one of  them.  So, I`m playing innocent here. (CROSSTALK) SHRUM:  I know.  I`m commenting on the media.

But I do want to say, by the way, Ron`s absolutely right about the  potential power of Elizabeth Warren on a ticket.  And it`s not just because  she appeals to the left.  I think her appeal goes across the board.

MATTHEWS:  Ron, you think that ticket is a good ticket, the two, Hillary  Clinton and a woman to her left, Elizabeth Warren?  You think that makes  sense? SHRUM:  I do, and for a variety of reasons.  I think Elizabeth Warren is  just very strong.

In fact, the danger to Hillary Clinton is being overshadowed by Elizabeth  Warren.  But Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton on the same ticket vs.  Donald Trump pushes all of Donald Trump`s buttons, doesn`t it? He`s going to be going up against two tough women who can, frankly, take  him apart in a debate.  Either one of them could.

MATTHEWS:  With Carly Fiorina for secretary of commerce.  We will throw  that one in to drive him really crazy. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS:  Anyway, thank you.  Have a happy, a good Memorial Day weekend,  as we mark an important part of our country`s legacy. Anyway, Bob Shrum and Ron Reagan, thank you.

SHRUM:  Thank you.

MATTHEWS:  Coming up, marking Memorial Day.  We honor those who died for  our country this weekend. And Up next, I`m going to speak with a Vietnam vet who has organized  Rolling Thunder to bring attention to prisoners of war and Americans  missing in action.

HARDBALL back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)  MATTHEWS:  That`s Memorial Bridge crossing for Virginia.  You can see  Arlington behind there, Arlington Cemetery. Anyway, welcome back to HARDBALL. That`s the sound of Rolling Thunder, the motorcycle rally rolling into  Washington last year.  Nearly 19,000 bikers attended then, bringing the  crowd total to over a million people here. Well, the event, which has been held every Memorial Day weekend for nearly  30 years now as a tribute to prisoners of war, basically in Vietnam, and  Americans missing in action over there, this year, Donald Trump will be in  attendance, where he`s set to speak here in Washington on the Mall Sunday  afternoon.

Artie Muller, a Vietnam vet, is executive director of Rolling Thunder.

What`s the message, sir?

ARTIE MULLER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ROLLING THUNDER:  Well, Chris... MATTHEWS:  I mean, it`s fun.  Everybody comes to town here.

MULLER:  Well, yes.

But through the years, our government has constantly told us that anybody  that was captured and alive was dead.  About seven or eight years ago,  Russia found one POW they had during -- they captured during World War II.

And they put him in an insane asylum because they thought he was crazy.

A new doctor was in there, and the guy said a few words.  And he said this  guy isn`t crazy, he`s just Hungarian.  So, after being held up for 50 years  like that, they finally let him go back home to Hungary.

And February of this year, Russia found -- had another prisoner.  And he  was in Hitler`s Panzer group, the tanks.  And he was captured during the  war, and he was 14 when he was in the group.  And he just got released this  past February.

MATTHEWS:  What about Vietnam?  Anybody, any infantry guys?  We never  discovered any infantry?  And we know the flyers, they got out, but what  about the infantry people?  Do we have anybody over there, any evidence of  an American still held?


There`s been plenty through the years.  And, what do call, DPMO just takes  it, looks at this, and says, well, that person is a liar.  They`re crazy.

What do you call it?  They don`t do the investigation they`re supposed to  do.

They really never sat down and talked to these countries and said, well,  why don`t you turn over any POWs you do have?  Find them and we can end  this issue.

I don`t care what country is it, and whether it`s Southeast Asia, whether  it`s Russia or China or North Korea.  Nobody is gaining anything by holding  these. MATTHEWS:  Yes.

It makes sense to me.  I don`t know why they would torture somebody.  They  probably -- well, I don`t know.

MULLER:  Yes, neither do I.

And a lot of it is maybe they don`t want to be caught with holding the bag.


Thank you.  Good luck this weekend.

Why are you having Trump, by the way?

MULLER:  We just figured... MATTHEWS:  Do you invite everybody, or just him?  Did you invite Hillary? MULLER:  No, we invited him.  No.  MATTHEWS:  Most of the guys like Trump?



MULLER:  We need some change in the government.

And I think Congress and the Senate is a little afraid of him because they  can`t buy him.  We need somebody to take over this country and run it the  way it`s supposed to be.

Obama has put this country in such debt.


MULLER:  How are we going to repay that debt?  We et Hillary in there, it  will be more debt.

We have our military that`s retiring, and they`re making them pay for their  health care now.  And she says, well, if I become president, I`m going to  give all the illegals free health care.  How can we afford that package  when we can`t afford... MATTHEWS:  Did she say that?

MULLER:  Yes, she did.

MATTHEWS:  OK. Well, thank you, Artie Muller.  I got to check that one out.  Thank you for  coming on. MULLER:  Thank you.

MATTHEWS:  Up next, too good to be true?  Bernie says he is willing to  debate Donald Trump, but what does the GOP nominee-to-be say?  We have got  his answer next. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.  (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I think it would get high  ratings.  It would be in big arena somewhere.  And we can have a lot of fun  with it.  We`ve had a couple of calls from the networks already.

KATY TUR, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  If you raise $10 million, you`ll get on  a debate stage with Bernie Sanders?

TRUMP:  I`d love to.  You know, I would love to.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. That was, of course, Donald Trump yesterday sounding interested at that  point at a debate with Senator Bernie Sanders.  Well, today, he changed his  tune.  He said, "Now that I`m the presumptive Republican nominee, it seems  inappropriate that I would debate the second place finisher.  Therefore, as  much as I want to debate Bernie Sanders and it would be an easy payday, I  will wait to debate the first place finisher in the Democratic Party,  probably crooked Hillary Clinton or whoever it may be." Trump sounded a similar note at his rally this afternoon.  Let`s watch him  from here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP:  You know what, you don`t want -- if you`re in first place, you  don`t want to debate a guy who`s in second place.  But it could be I`ll end  up with Bernie.  But I hear what they`re going to do.  They don`t want  Bernie, because, look, he`s a socialist.  Give me a break.

Have we come that far?  Have we come that far?  I don`t think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS:  Well, here`s how Senator Sanders responds to the news that Trump  won`t debate him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I heard that he was  going to debate me.  I heard he was not going to debate me.  I heard he was  going to debate me, and now you`re telling me that he`s not going debate  me.

Well, you know, I hope he changes his mind again.  I mean, Mr. Trump is  known to change his mind many times in day.  I would -- Trump goes around,  he`s a bully.  He`s a big tough guy.

Well, Mr. Trump, what are you afraid of?

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS:  Well, why Trump changed his mind?

I`m joined with tonight`s roundtable.  Richard Fowler is nationally  syndicated radio host.  He`s right to Jennifer Jacobs is right one over  there, she`s nationally political reporter for "Bloomberg Politics", Ken  Vogel is chief investigative reporter for "Politico". So, in order, let`s start going here.  Why did this not happen?  Pretend  we`re all Don King here.  What happened to this fight?  How come it`s not  happening? RICHARD FOWLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  I think Trump has no need to debate  him.  I mean, he`s like, I can sit back and watch this whole popcorn fight  finish between Hillary and Bernie and not get in the middle of it.

But to be honest, the only person that benefits from Bernie/Trump debate is  Bernie Sanders.  It puts him on a main stage, that puts his ideals out  there.  And so, he wants to debate like hell.

MATTHEWS:  I think he would be declared winner from the start.

FOWLER:  Oh, yes. MATTHEWS:  I just see these things, go Bernie, beat the spread.  You know,  he beat the flashy guy from New York.  I can see the way it works. JENNIFER JACOBS, BLOOMBERG POLITICS:  But Trump could have had him stand up  there and be forced to either attack or defend Hillary Clinton.  Trump  could have stood there and lashed out at Hillary Clinton over and over  again and waited to see.

MATTHEWS:  Hillary would be the collateral damage.

KEN VOGEL, POLITICO:  I find it one thing we can say what it wasn`t about  was propriety.  Trump said, it would inappropriate, like all of a sudden,  Trump cares about what is appropriate.  Come on now.  We don`t believe  that.

I actually wonder if maybe his people were telling him or maybe the  Republican Party was telling him you don`t want to get in the way of this.

Let them duke it out.  It could have really caused mischief.

MATTHEWS:  You first along back here, in roundtable style.  Here we are  Friday, 27th of May, right, getting close to July.  Which way is this race  shifting, inside the Democratic Party and across the board between the two  parties?  Which way is it -- where are the movement that you see right now?

Who`s winning, who`s losing? VOGEL:  Yes, some of these polls are even ahead of Hillary Clinton in key  battleground states were really shocking.  And I think we see some --

MATTHEWS:  We`ve got a new one with him ahead. VOGEL:  Some of the same adjustment of expectations that we saw during the  Republican primary, people were like, you know what, maybe he`s not a  laughingstock.  Maybe he has a chance.

He`s the Republican nominee.  He has a chance of beating Hillary -- he has  a chance of being next president of the United States despite the fact that  all conventional wisdom would say his candidacy that really has no  traction.

MATTHEWS:  Jennifer -- Jennifer, what`s going on?

JACOBS:  Oh, I think it`s just a strong contrast with Hillary Clinton and  Bernie Sanders.  Her -- she and her campaign like to be 100 percent in  control of everything.  And that`s just not happening in the 2016 cycle.

You saw Donald Trump dispatch all his GOP competitors.  And Hillary Clinton  just hasn`t been able to do that.  It just seems like she`s maybe on two  tracks.  She`s got one track where she`s trying to get to the numbers to be  the nominee and, secondarily, she`ll wait and figure out how to bring the  Sanders people on board.

MATTHEWS:  We have to take a break.

By the way, I just want to go over somebody said before tonight.  I have to  get this straight.  When I saw the Mexican flags, and I saw the American  flags arriving, I said the Americans.  I should have never made that  reference.  I feel terrible.

Just because you`re waving an American flag doesn`t make you better than  somebody on the other side of the argument who doesn`t have the flag with  them.  It`s not true.  It`s not true.  That isn`t the fact.

Anyway, up next, a live update as protests get heated in San Diego.  Well,  watch, this is still going on, this stuff.

HARDBALL back after this.


Let`s go back to San Diego and NBC`s Jacob Rascon.

Jacob, what`s happening right now?

JACOB RASCON, NBC NEWS:  All right.  So, in the last few moments, what  we`re seeing is riot, police in full riot gear who have come in between the  supporters and the protesters.  But, really, there are supporters who are  mixed in with the protesters.  I personally saw several fights break out.

They started throwing water and somebody had pepper spray.  One of the  supporters sprayed it.  Everybody else could -- you could smell it.  You  could feel it.

I was hit in the head with some water.  On and off, there were fights  because some on either side had just mixed in with one another.

Right now, what I`m looking at is police in full riot gear with batons  pushing people back, pushing me back.  As I`m speaking, I`m watching and  for the most part, they are divided.  Trump supporters on one side.

Protesters (AUDIO GAP) Protesters crowd, they chose to come over.  Go ahead, Chris.

MATTHEWS:  I was going to ask you, why are the Trump people sticking  around?  Just to taunt the protesters.  Why don`t they leave?

RASCON:  So, it`s on both sides, Chris, I would say.  The protesters who  come and stick around want to stick around because they want to meet the  supporters who are coming out.  And I don`t know who starts it really  because the supporters are let out and the protesters start yelling at  them, but the supporters also just saw Trump, they heard him talk about  building a wall, they`re excited about it.

And they come out and this is what happens.  We see the clash.

MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you, are they still separated, the two crowds,  physically?  The Trump people and the protesters, are they still separated?

RASCON:  You know what, as we were speaking and I was telling you that the  police in full riot gear were trying to separate them, there aren`t enough  of them to separate the crowd.  Because right now I`m looking at a big  crowd of supporters and protesters face-to-face, throwing water bottles at  each other, shouting insults.

And it`s worth noting that getting in between most of these fights are a  few people, one man in particular wearing a "free hugs" shirt, several  others who jump in between all the fights they can, who are sort of  neutral.  Not the police, of course.  And say, don`t fight, keep it  peaceful.  Usually they`re successful.  But there aren`t enough of them.

As I said, we`ve seen several fistfights break out.

Now, it`s worth noting as well -- I see my cameraman.  We kind of got lost  in the fights.  The police have declared for the first time an unlawful  assembly, which is the warning, the first one that they give before they  say they`re going to make arrests for the first time.  They`ll make a  couple more warnings then start moving in and arresting people.  That`s  what has happened in Albuquerque.  That`s what happened in Anaheim.  And  that`s what will happen here.

MATTHEWS:  Hold on now, Jake.  Take care of yourself.  Let`s bring in Jim  Cavanaugh, the expert.

Jim, it seems to me, as you said in an earlier appearance on this network,  this is going to be a rolling thing.  It`s going to go from now at least to  the conventions.  Will police have to mount up, bulk up with more officers  on the street, more weaponry, more whatever, horses even, and that will  rile up the crowds to escalate as well?

JIM CAVANAUGH, MSNBC LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST:  I don`t think we`re going --  I think we`re going to see this all summer.  I don`t see an end to it

I think you see the thin blue line in action here, but it`s reserved police  action.  These are officers dealing with civil disobedience, so far on a  minor scale.  I mean, it`s water bottles thrown, a lot of the taunting,  people dancing in the street.  But, you know, fights break out, some  arrests made.

But like Jacob said what`s going to happen now is unlawful assembly is  declared and you`ll see that team of tactical officers in the near future  probably try to move that crowd, without gas, just by walking and walking  and try to move the crowd to disperse the crowd.  They`ll kind of try to do  that slowly.  If there`s violence, they`ll try to arrest those people  quickly.

MATTHEWS:  So I don`t know how to explain this.  Maybe you can.  But we`re  looking at people who are angry.  And it seems to me that they`re angry  because of the insult.  It`s like insult to injury.

They`ve had a hard time, some of them in this country, when a lot of them  have had problems with not having documentation, all that.  And then to  have someone go out there and call them rapists, you know, build a wall to  keep you out, to keep anybody like you out.  What has caused this anger  level?  Were they trying to figure it out? CAVANAUGH:  Well, I think, you know, you`ve hit it on the head, Chris.

When we talked the other day, you talked about pride.  You talked about it  earlier today.

That the people with the Mexican flag are Mexican-Americans.  The people  with American flag are American.  All these people are Americans.  And  they`re all going through these opposing views.

When you insult someone`s heritage, insult them for who they are, when you  insult someone for who they are by calling Senator Warren a derisive name,  like Pocahontas, you insult all Native Americans.  People take these things  emotionally deep.

So, the commanders of the police have to understand that.  There`s a lot of  emotion there.

MATTHEWS:  Yes, okay.

CAVANAUGH:  They`ve got to keep those separated.

MATTHEWS:  Well said, Jim.  We`ve got to get back now to  Jim Cavanaugh --  thank you..

Let`s go back to Jacob Rascon. Jacob, you`re there. RASCON:  Yes, we just watched what was almost a fistfight between a member  of the media and one of the protesters.  And then again we have on my left,  we have the police in full riot gear, they`re standing there making sure  that they don`t spill onto the streets over there.  They have the batons  out, of course.  Then over here, if we swing around, we`re going to now  look at where the protesters and supporters are not separated.  They mingle  here one and another.

We see here on the left, several of the protesters.  We see here on the  right a lot of make America great again hats.  It`s really that maybe there  aren`t enough of them right here.  We know there`s a big police presence  300 feet away.

We`ve seen the SWAT team.  We have seen the few hundred police officers.

But they`re not here, they`re not separating for some reason any longer  this crowd.  Again, they`ve declared an unlawful assembly.  They say they  will protest, that they will arrest people.

I`m hearing it again, the warning about the unlawful assembly.  Usually,  they give three or four of these warnings and then start closing in.  They  go after one or two, they arrest them, and then some people get scared and  they leave.

We`ll see if that happens again.  We`ll go in here.  It looks like police  in full riot gear are trying to get in and separate the crowds really for  the third or fourth time.  We`ll see if they`re successful this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They moved him out like he was Donald Trump (ph).

MATTHEWS:  Let me go back to Jim Cavanaugh.

Jim, you see the maneuvering going on by the police.

CAVANAUGH:  Yes, it`s very good, Chris.

What they`re trying to do is separate.  But of course, you understand that  you can`t tell by everyone what they look like, who they support.  So they  try to do it in general to get between people.

What they try to read too though is the psychology of the crowd, the mood.

And right now, it`s not very violent or anything and they`re reading that,  the police are reading that.  Because if you start with a lot missiles  being thrown and windows being broken and fights and assaults, then the  tempo of the violence increases.  With a crowd, it can happen quickly.

So they`re keeping it down.  The police aren`t pressing it very hard but  they`re making their announcements.  They know this crowd is OK right now  for violence.  It`s not a mob.  It`s just demonstrators.  It`s democracy,  it`s always a little messy.

But I think San Diego PD is right now, they have their finger on the tempo,  they`re doing just the right thing.  Not too much, not too little.  Just  the right thing.

MATTHEWS:  Richard Fowler wants to get in here -- Richard.

FOWLER:  Well, Chris, I`ve covered both Ferguson and Baltimore, and I think  what you can sense from that crowd is there`s a lot of anger in this  country.  Whether you`re Mexican, whether you`re African-American, there`s  anger.  And this anger`s playing out in this election, right?  You see it  on the Bernie side, you see it on the Trump side.

Politically, what Hillary Clinton is going to do here is figure out a way  to encapsulate this anger and use it for her campaign.  Right now, she`s  not doing it, but this is --  MATTHEWS:  Well said.  I think that`s a part of the story we`ve got to  cover greater.  We wish more opportunities than just looking at this kind  of situation.

Anyway, Jacob, you`re back on.

RASCON:  All right, Chris.  We just want to talk to somebody who`s willing  to talk without saying F-Trump.  This is Daniel. Daniel, you`re from San Diego?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  From Chicago originally, I came here when I joined the  Marine Corps.

RASCON:  Why did you feel it was important for you to come out here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Just to show that Trump is pure evil.  If you vote for  him, it`s evil.  It`s not good for our country.  I`ve got to show support  for the protesters against Trump.  He`s not helping the country.

RASCON:  What is your top beef with Trump?  What most makes you upset about  him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  What he says about Mexico, building a wall.  Like it  wouldn`t be the USA without Mexico.  We`re all the same.

And I know he`s making a difference between the rich and the poor.  He  cares about the rich people, he don`t care about the average people.

RASCON:  You`ve been here watching the back and forth, the fighting, the  police coming in.  What do you make of all of this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It`s crazy.  Like I think it would be crazy, somebody`s  running for president and you see how many people what this brings up.  Him  just running for president.  Look at it, brings out all these different  emotions, it`s crazy.

(CROSSTALK) RASCON:  I think we`re going to go.  Thanks, Daniel.

Go ahead, Chris.

MATTHEWS:  Thank, Jacob Rascon, good reporting there.

We`re hearing a very loud crowd there.  It`s hard to tell how close they  were.  They must have been very close to your microphone because it was  really a roar.

Let me get some thoughts here.

Jennifer, you`re watching this as well.

JACOBS:  It looks like neither side wants to let the other side win.  They  don`t want to back off and let the other side -- give them more space.

They just feed off each other`s energy.  It seems like there`s some real  outrage on the one side and the other side, they seem to just -- you know,  it`s those racial contrasts played to those nationalist white voters that  Donald Trump is trying to maximize.

MATTHEWS:  We`re also hearing passions on the other side.  The protesting  side.

VOGEL:  It`s a microcosm.

MATTHEWS:  As Richard pointed out, we don`t know.  That voice we`re hearing  in a crowd, of course.

VOGEL:  And it`s a microcosm of Donald Trump`s campaign.  He is exploiting  something that is out there, a real feeling among the electorate.

MATTHEWS:  Does this work?

VOGEL:  It obviously did work, he`s the Republican nominee.

MATTHEWS:  No, no, I mean, in the general?

VOGEL:  That`s the open question.  Hillary Clinton may not be the perfect  opponent to challenge it, because she is also so deeply unpopular, in a  totally different way.

MATTHEWS:  No, but she doesn`t cause riots.

VOGEL:  That`s right.  The exact opposite.

FOWLER:  Riot is based on the idea of excitement.  Whether it`s anger or  excitement -- what Hillary Clinton has to do is catch it, put it in a  bottle.

MATTHEWS:  Historically, America goes to the safe candidate.  Hillary looks  safer than this.

Anyway, my thanks to NBC`s Jacob Rascon doing great reporting out there in  San Diego.  Also to my roundtable, Richard Fowler, to my left, Jennifer  Jacobs, they didn`t give enough time tonight.  Well, we have to cover the  news. That does it for me and HARDBALL tonight. Our coverage continues with my colleague Chris Hayes on "ALL IN." THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY  BE UPDATED. END