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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 08/17/15

Guests: Robert Costa, Omarosa Manigault, Zerlina Maxwell, Amos Brown, AriBerman, April Ryan, Adolfo Franco

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Trump wants all illegal immigrants out of the country. Does that include the man you, Mr. Trump, have spent all these years calling an illegal immigrant? Does that include the president of the United States? Let`s play HARDBALL. Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington. The man who spent years declaring the president of the United States an illegal immigrant now has a plan for 11 million of them -- send them all home. Question. Mr. Trump, does that mean Mr. Obama, too? Does he have to go back to that country you said he was from, or should we forget all that? And by the way, what would we take seriously that you have to say, Mr. Trump? NBC`s Katy Tur joins us now from lower Manhattan, where Donald Trump reported for jury duty today. Katy, what a wild goose chase you`re on as a reporter. You go to jury duty to follow Donald Trump. He`s been released. How do you explain that crowd out at the courthouse today? KATY TUR, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, everywhere he goes, he draws a big crowd. The vast majority, though, today were reporters, and whenever we see go to him in New Hampshire or Iowa or South Carolina or Arizona or Michigan, he`s always drawing a lot of reporters specifically because no one is quite sure what exactly he`s going to say. I don`t think his staff even knows what`s going to come out of his mouth half the time. But also, when you`re there, you are seeing very large crowds of supporters. Even here today, when people were realizing that he was coming out of the courthouse, there were lot of pedestrians on the street who stopped to cheer for him. He even signed a dollar bill.   But in places -- the early voting states, places like Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, immigration does seem to be very hot topic for them. Even though they`re not directly involved in the immigration battle, if you will -- they`re not border states by any means -- they do seem to have immigration as one of their higher priorities, and he does seem to be appealing to those people, speaking to them directly, telling him that he will get those undocumented immigrants out. It`s unclear, though, if he was able to factor in how much that would cost into his plan. He said that he would fund the border wall but basically upping the fees for visas, among other things. But in order to get the 11 million undocumented immigrants out of this country, independent analysis says it would cost anywhere-- MATTHEWS: Yes. TUR: -- between $1 billion and $2 billion. And we were asking him about that today, whether or not he factored that in. He dodged that question, basically saying that this is our country and we need to close the borders, get them out and make it great again. MATTHEWS: Katy Tur, thanks for that report from the courthouse. What a strange world we live in. Trump released his first big policy position over the weekend. It was hard-line and it was on immigration. It sets out three principles -- a nation a nation without borders is not a nation, a nation without laws is not a nation, a nation that does not serve its own citizens is not a nation. Hard to argue with those principles. Anyway, in an interview on "MEET THE PRESS" yesterday Trump made clear that anyone who entered this country illegally must be made to leave it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to make a whole new set of standards. And when people come in, they have to come-- CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": You`re going to split up families. TRUMP: Chuck--   TODD: You`re going to deport children. TRUMP: Chuck -- no, no. We`re going to keep the families together. We have to keep the families together. TODD: But you`re going to (INAUDIBLE) TRUMP: But they have to go. But they have to go. TODD: What if they have no place to go? TRUMP: We will work with them. They have to go. Chuck, we either have a country or we don`t have a country. TODD: It`s not clear-- TRUMP: Chuck, it`ll work out so well. You will be so happy. In four years, you`re going to be interviewing me and you`re going to say, What a great job you`ve done, President Trump. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Robert Costa`s national political reporter for "The Washington Post." David Corn is the Washington bureau chief for "Mother Jones." And Eugene Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist with "The Washington Post," who yesterday appeared finally on "MEET THE PRESS." (LAUGHTER)   MATTHEWS: Thank you (INAUDIBLE) Let me -- let me -- let me tell you why I think Trump is going to get paid (ph) in (ph) on this in Iowa. Everybody else uses the politically appropriate term of "undocumented workers," doesn`t even say immigrants. If you`re saying "undocumented workers," you`re not going to try to get those people out of the country. You`ve already accepted them, it`s just a different kind of word (ph). They left their driver`s license at home. It`s just a question of getting the right paperwork in their hands. That immediately conveys the idea you`re not serious about illegal immigration. He, on the other hand, says, `I`m talking about illegal immigrants." Now, he`s crazy when he talks about the president, and that establishes to me -- I don`t know why he does anything he does in public life because you say things like that, you can`t be taken seriously. But on the issue of immigration and the voter, I think the voter here is -- This guy means it! David-- DAVID CORN, "MOTHER JONES," MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well-- MATTHEWS: He`s not one of these guys jockeying how to keep the Hispanic groups happy, how to keep the Catholic church happy, how to keep the farmers happy. I just want to say the truth. He sounds like truth. CORN: Well, and his policy proposals, which he put out today -- the particulars don`t even matter that much. I think anywhere from 10 to 25, maybe even 30 percent of the Republican primary base are people who want someone who is angry and as outraged as they feel. They don`t like pressing one for English, two for Spanish, and they want someone who`s just going to be like your uncle who says, This is what I believe, and the particulars don`t matter. They want-- MATTHEWS: By the way-- (CROSSTALK) CORN: -- the hatred! MATTHEWS: Slow down for a second. I will give him a little more credit than hatred. You don`t agree with him, fine. But there`s another point of view out there. Do we have a border plan that anybody else will enforce? Now, I give credit at the end of the show to Schumer and to Lindsey Graham because they signed onto the bipartisan bill, which does stop people from getting hired illegally in this country. But all these other politicians are pander bears! Nobody wants to say anything about illegal immigration for fear of losing the Hispanic vote! What`s he doing? At least he`s saying something!   ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST": And he`s sending a huge message to the base. Look who he sought counsel from, the one-- MATTHEWS: Bush ain`t going to say this! COSTA: -- U.S. senator he called was Jeff Sessions of Alabama, who`s the favorite of the conservative activists. MATTHEWS: Who has a bill. COSTA: They love him. (CROSSTALK) COSTA: -- a true border hawk. He`s saying, Look, I may be liberal on other issues, I may have disappointed you and may have been a Democrat, but on the things that matter, on immigration, I`m with you on the hard right. MATTHEWS: And he -- Gene, he says something. EUGENE ROBINSON, "WASHINGTON POST," MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well-- MATTHEWS: You can -- like you disagree with it, you don`t like the sound or the smell of what he says. ROBINSON: Right.   MATTHEWS: But you know what he`s saying! At least we know that! We don`t know what -- what are these other guys saying? ROBINSON: Absolutely. He says something, and people apparently eat it up. Now, what he says is totally impossible, right? I mean, let`s just establish that. It`s totally impossible-- MATTHEWS: Well, I think it`s immoral, too. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: -- and their roots here -- I don`t think -- I don`t think -- you`d have to be pretty right-wing-- ROBINSON: In fact-- MATTHEWS: -- to pick up some guy who`s been here-- CORN: Well, there are millions-- ROBINSON: It matters less that it`s impossible than that he says it. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Why is it important?   ROBINSON: He says it forcefully, and he continues to say it. MATTHEWS: Why is it important again, why he gets -- because it`s going to help him carry Iowa! (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: You know, in Iowa especially-- (CROSSTALK) CORN: There are millions of Republicans, I think, who want, who actually want these people deported. They may agree it can happen or not happen, but they want to see the effort. And he says, I`m going to try it. This has to happen. MATTHEWS: So a guy who`s opened up a flower shop, the guy who`s opened up a paper delivery system-- CORN: Out! Out! (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: -- he`s gone. CORN: Out.   COSTA: But what`s the real political credit-- (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: He`s not really gone. He`s not going legally, but-- MATTHEWS: See, I would like to think, because I`m a reasonable person, that there`s a happy medium between that crazy talk and doing nothing, which is make it -- remove the incentives for the guy sneaking across the border tomorrow night! (CROSSTALK) CORN: That was the bipartisan Senate bill! MATTHEWS: I know. But Trump`s plan immediately won over Iowa hard-liners, like Congressman -- talk about the crazy -- well, who knows -- Steve King, who`s attacked illegal immigrants in the harshest terms like -- oh, God, cantaloupes -- he`s called the plan bold, strong and whatever. Anyway, Wisconsin governor Scott Walker also finds himself now trailing behind Trump in Iowa. Now he sounds like he likes Trump. In an interview with Fox News today, Governor Walker made it sound as if he, too, has wanted to build a wall at the border. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Earlier in the year, I was on "Fox News Sunday" and laid out what I thought we should do, which is secure the border, which means build the wall, have the technology, have the personnel to make sure it`s safe and secure-- (END VIDEO CLIP)   MATTHEWS: We should note that Walker never mentioned a wall in the interview he was referring to, never mentioned! But now he`s all for it. That was just the start of it. Today, Governor Walker also came out against automatic citizenship for children of those who entered the country illegally -- in other words, the 14th Amendment. Well, here`s Walker with MSNBC`s Kasie Hunt. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Do you think that birthright citizenship should be ended? WALKER: Well, like I said, Harry Reid said it`s not right for this country. I think that`s something we should -- yes, absolutely, going forward, I think (INAUDIBLE) HUNT: We should end birthright citizenship? WALKER: Yes. To me, it`s about enforcing the laws of this country. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: You know, (INAUDIBLE) the 14th Amendment, which came out of the Civil War and basically was to protect the newly enfranchised African- Americans. It also happened to say that if you`re born in this country, you`re a citizen. It`s really simple! And he wants to get rid of that for-- (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: -- talk about enforcing the laws of this country -- that`s the law of this country!   (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: That would take three quarters of the states to basically get rid of the 14th Amendment, as we now know it, which I think the American people, as anguished as they might be in certain quarters, are not going to change the Constitution on this. COSTA: Least surprising interview I`ve seen all day. I`ve been on the phone with donors to Walker, Huckabee, Carson. They see all this stuff happening with Trump, and they think they`ve got to move right now in Iowa because Trump is moving up. MATTHEWS: You know what they reminded me of? You know what they remind me of? (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: No, remember -- remember the movie "Doctor Strangelove," one of the great movies ever? Remember Slim Pickens riding the rocket? They`re all riding Trump! They`re all going, Yahoo! (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: This is great! They`re all riding Trump. To where? To where? (CROSSTALK) COSTA: -- Iowa bounce. What happens, because a lot of these guys-- MATTHEWS: How do you -- how do you get--   (CROSSTALK) CORN: -- at the next debate-- COSTA: -- evangelical-- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Robert Costa, how do you get Trump`s vote-- COSTA: When you talk to allies of Huckabee, Santorum, they all say, Remind the evangelicals in Iowa, who love Trump on immigration, that he`s not one with them on the social issues. MATTHEWS: Oh! (CROSSTALK) CORN: But I think on the immigration issue, they`re going to see people trying to get even to his right, and probably in the next debate, you`ll have a debate with each candidate saying, I`ll build it 20 feet high, 24 feet high-- MATTHEWS: OK, let me-- CORN: -- 28 feet high!   (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: -- try to out-Trump Trump. (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: I`m sorry. It`s not going to work. MATTHEWS: Anyway, here`s the latest polling-- CORN: They`re going to try! (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: -- he continues to lap the field. In new a Fox News poll just out now making headlines, Trump leads with 25 percent. He`s 13 points ahead of Ben Carson and 15 points ahead of Ted Cruz. Jeb Bush is in single digits. Something`s not working for Jeb. By the way, he`s very pro- immigration. Anyway, Trump is narrowing the gap against Hillary Clinton. Now, this is the big number, this is a Fox number, but in June, Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, the secretary, trounced Trump by 17 points in a hypothetical match-up. It`s not getting so hypothetical, actually. Now Clinton`s leading-- (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: -- Trump by just 5 points, 5 points! That`s--   (CROSSTALK) ROBINSON: -- couple things have happened. One, Trump has become a genuine candidate for president of the United States. Now, I think we have to agree on that. He is a candidate, and people are saying he could be a candidate. I can`t-- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Anybody here think-- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK, Is it plausible? I want to test this. We have three smart people. ROBINSON: OK. MATTHEWS: Can you answer this question? Is his nomination by the Republican Party plausible? COSTA: Republican Party has-- MATTHEWS: Is it plausible? I`m pretending (ph) to ask you a question. COSTA: Crowded field? Yes.   MATTHEWS: Is it plausible? CORN: Not plausible, possible. ROBINSON: It`s certainly possible. MATTHEWS: Oh, possible, certainly possible and plausible. Anyway, thank you. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Thank you, Robert Costa, David Corn. We have -- the jury has reached its decision. Look out! (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Gene Robinson, Robert Costa and David Corn. Coming up -- Donald Trump says he cherishes women. That`s a good line -- cherishes all women. What`s this about? Can he earn their vote? I`ll speak with a woman who knows him well, former "Apprentice" contestant Omarosa Manigault. Plus, this front page news in "USA Today" today -- Biden poses threat to Clinton. But will the vice president actually move from showing interest, as he apparently is, to actually jumping in? That`s our question tonight.   And speaking of questions, elections all come down to, I believe, a simple yes or no. Do you like how things are going in your party right now? How about the country? Where the candidates stand on those key points, yes or no? It`s binary. And we`ll remember the life and legacy of Julian Bond as Civil Rights icon who spent his life fighting for equality. And I remember him from the `68 Democratic convention in Chicago. He was one bright light then. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Well, this is wild. Wisconsin governor Scott Walker took on protesters today who showed up for his "Soapbox" appearance at the Iowa State Fair. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WALKER: (INAUDIBLE) a great test with the protesters because you think you want someone tough. There`s a lot of people that talk tough. I`m the only one who stood up to 100,000 protesters, stood up to the big union bosses. I`ll stand up to Washington, regardless of party, and fight for the American people! Again, unintimidated! I am not intimidated by you, sir, or anyone else out there! I will fight for the American people over and over and over and over again! You want someone who`s tested? I`m right here! You can see it! (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Walker talks there about standing up to the union bosses. Actually, a new Gallup poll shows that 58 percent, a strong number of Americans, approve of labor unions generally. The all-time low was back in 2009, when it was 48 percent. So the unions are coming back, generally speaking. We`ll be right back.   (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Donald Trump has now honed a fairly reliable stump speech in his quest for the 2016 Republican nomination for president. He has issues with China, Jeb Bush and immigrants, of course, most lately. And lately, he`s added one emphatic promise to our country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I will be great on women`s health issues. I cherish women. And I will be great on women`s health issues, believe me. I will help on women`s health issues more than anybody, including on the Democratic side. Women`s health issues -- you watch. You watch. I cherish women. I mean, my mother was this incredible woman. I have great children. I have a great wife. I cherish women. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, these assurances came after the debate GOP, obviously, out in Cleveland and his remark then to moderator Megyn Kelly the following night after that debate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: She gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions, and you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her -- wherever. (END VIDEO CLIP)   MATTHEWS: Wherever. Anyway, in the wake of that firestorm, can Trump`s promise to cherish women voters win over women voters? Well, joining me right now is Zerlina Maxwell, who writes for "Essence" -- that`s a great magazine. And also with me is the woman -- a woman who knows Donald Trump quite well. Omarosa Manigault has worked for Trump Productions. She`s appeared on 75 episodes of "The Apprentice" over the course of three years. And so here we go, Omarosa. We have to get you here, but let`s take a look at a couple things. Let`s look at this first. OMAROSA MANIGAULT, FORMER "APPRENTICE" CONTESTANT: OK. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MANIGAULT: Your mama should know. Your mama should know, Piers. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: Your mama should know. PIERS MORGAN, TALK SHOW HOST: -- Omarosa, and remember-- MANIGAULT: Your mama should know. MORGAN: -- I`m on this side this time.   MANIGAULT: Who cares? Donald makes the ultimate decision. Don`t get it twisted. This is not CNN. I`m a grown woman. I run a company. I run half of the West Coast for "OK" magazine. You`re not going to-- (CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Omarosa, easy! Omarosa, easy, easy, easy! (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: -- all about making good TV, and we`ve done that for 10 years and 13 seasons. TRUMP: We have done that. I agree. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Anyway, Omarosa`s made hundreds of thousands of dollars working with Donald Trump and has a unique perspective on the 2016 race since she also worked in the Clinton White House. Thank you for joining us, Omarosa. (INAUDIBLE) and I want Zerlina to get in on this. It`s an open discussion. I`m actually going to fade a little bit here. Tell me what it`s like -- all my life, I`ve worked for politicians, worked with them or watched them, and oftentimes, there`s a tremendous difference between what you see on television from them, and sometimes, it`s worse. Sometimes it may be better. Most of the time, they`re better in person.   But is Donald Trump better in person or different in person when you get -- when the lights go off and you go back to the Green Room and you talk him about the show? How is he different professionally than he is theatrically? MANIGAULT: You know, I don`t think people realize that Donald Trump has an incredible sense of humor. He`s funny. He`s laid back. You know, he has a lot of chill. If you knew him, he has a great swag (ph), too. And you don`t really see that. That doesn`t translate because they`ve kind of managed to make him look like a caricature of himself. But he is a really fun guy to be around, and he`s not always so serious. MATTHEWS: Who created that picture of him that you describe, the caricature? MANIGAULT: You know, I saw a caricature where they`re making fun of his hair or he`s -- you know, he`s got his hand out doing the, "You`re fired" hand. I mean, people make fun of all the big moments, but there are also very significant moments that people miss. Donald Trump does care about women. He has worked to make sure that people know his passion, and we`re going to have to know more about his positions on issues that are important to women, and you`ll see that in the next couple of weeks. MATTHEWS: OK, let`s take a look at what he said about Carly Fiorina, a woman who`s running against him. She`s risen in the polls. Trump`s going after her. He tweeted this after Fiorina took a swipe at him at the Cleveland debate. Quote, "I just realized that if you listen to Carly Fiorina for more than 10 minutes straight, you develop a massive headache. She has zero chance." Your reaction to that quickly? And then we will go to Zerlina. MANIGAULT: I think that, at the next debate, you`re going to see them kind of sic Carly on Donald Trump. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Who is they? Who is they? MANIGAULT: I think the Republican establishment is very intimidated by Donald Trump. They can`t control him.   (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: And they can control Carly. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: They can manage Carly, but they cannot manage Trump. MATTHEWS: Why do you assume that they would control the woman -- the only woman candidate running? MANIGAULT: Do you know what? She`s going to fall in line. She`s indebted to the donors who give money to the Republican primaries. She`s indebted to their positioning. She`s indebted to FOX News. Donald Trump is unfiltered. He`s unbothered. He`s unbought, he`s unbossed. You can`t control him. And so you are going to see in this debate, you just watch, Chris, they are going to sic her on him, and she`s going to go and she`s going to get tore up. (CROSSTALK) (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: I don`t miss anything, Omarosa. Thank you. But stick with us, Omarosa. Just hang in there. MANIGAULT: Sure.   MATTHEWS: You have a point of view we haven`t heard on this show lately. But we want to hear from Zerlina. Zerlina, what do you make of what you just heard? ZERLINA MAXWELL, "ESSENCE": Well, I mean, I`m sure that Donald Trump might be a nice guy to people that he likes or women that he likes who are in his inner circle and that he has given sort of the stamp of approval to. The problem, though, is that he`s trying to attract women as voters. And you don`t do that by making period jokes or talking about people`s appearances. MANIGAULT: Well, he never made a period joke. (CROSSTALK) MAXWELL: He has a long history -- he has a very long history of talking about women, either dismissing them as bimbos, like he did with Megyn Kelly last week, or calling them ugly dogs, like he did with Rosie O`Donnell or "The New York Times" columnist Gail Collins. I just think that he has to put forth specific policy propels. He hasn`t said whether or not he is going to defund Planned Parenthood or shut down the government over Planned Parenthood. MANIGAULT: He has made statements about that. MAXWELL: And so I think that as he`s talking in specifics -- and also I think he should, you know, say look, I was inarticulate or said things that were offensive about women, and now I don`t think those things.   I think that the fact that he keeps saying things makes us women and women voters believe he might believe women`s place is in the home or women`s place is only to be decoration. MANIGAULT: He has never said that, nor did he make a period joke. (CROSSTALK) MAXWELL: He did make a period joke. That was a period joke. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: He did not say anything about her period. But let`s just get to some real issues. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Let`s stop for a second. Ladies, just one second. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: There are some important issues, but name-calling is not an important issue. MAXWELL: No, I`m not calling him names.   (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Let me ask you all, why did -- let me ask you, Omarosa, why -- Omarosa, why do you think women thought he was talking about menstrual there? I don`t know what he was talking -- I can`t read minds. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: He said, "or whatever." You have to be vulgar to think that he was talking about a woman`s period. Let`s not go crazy here. Donald Trump really did feel that where she was coming from was not with good intention. If she wanted to know where he stood on women`s issues, she would have asked a question about a women`s policy-issue-based question like wage gap and gender-based-- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Would have he said blood coming out of your eyes or wherever to a male? Just asking. MANIGAULT: Let me tell you-- MATTHEWS: No? MANIGAULT: If that question about-- (CROSSTALK)   MATTHEWS: Well, why did he say to it to a woman? MANIGAULT: -- Rosie O`Donnell was asked by any of the male moderators or about his bankruptcy asked by any of the male moderators, he would have went after them just as aggressively. Let`s not paint with a big old brush. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: I`m asking. MANIGAULT: Just because he insulted Rosie O`Donnell does not mean that he does not like all women. (CROSSTALK) MAXWELL: I did not articulate that he didn`t like all women. I`m saying that there`s a long history of similar remarks. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: You specifically talked about the names that -- he responded to her when she insulted his family. And I will tell you, you come up to my family, I`m coming after you, too. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK. Omarosa, will you vote for Donald Trump?   MANIGAULT: I`m a Democrat. I can`t even vote in a Republican primary. But I am his friend and I can speak to his character. MATTHEWS: Well, wait a minute. If he`s candidate for president of the Republican Party, would you vote for him? MANIGAULT: I can`t wait to see him go toe to toe with Hillary Clinton. And as soon as that happens, then I will make that decision, Chris. MATTHEWS: But you can imagine -- you can imagine voting for him? MANIGAULT: Well, I could imagine voting for the person who advances my interests. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: No, no, come on. Don`t get -- you`re such a pol. (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: You know my position. You know I have worked for the Clintons. You know that I worked in the White House. I never hedged on that. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: But you can`t -- I`m asking you a simple question and this is an easy yes or no.   MANIGAULT: OK. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Can you imagine voting for Donald Trump? MANIGAULT: It depends. MATTHEWS: You can`t imagine or you can imagine it? MANIGAULT: It depends. I would like to see, just like the rest of America, where his positions are on key issues. MATTHEWS: To what effect? Do you want to see those-- (CROSSTALK) MANIGAULT: In the African-American community, I want to know if he`s going to be hard or soft on the economy, whether he`s going to create job opportunities in my community and where does he stand on education? MATTHEWS: And if he does? And if he does? (CROSSTALK)   MANIGAULT: And if he does, I would consider it, absolutely. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. And you, Zerlina, would never vote for him in a million years, right? MAXWELL: No, I`m not voting for Donald Trump. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. I love clarity. Thank you both for coming on, Omarosa Manigault and Zerlina Maxwell. MANIGAULT: Thanks, Chris. MATTHEWS: An interesting discussion. Coming up, remembering a civil rights icon. Talk about a change of pace. Julian Bond, his legacy on civil rights and voting rights up next.   And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Tributes continue to pour in for the civil rights icon Julian Bond, who died this weekend. President Obama said in a statement -- quote -- "Julian Bond was a hero and I`m privileged to say a friend. He helped change this country for the better and what better way to be remembered than that?" That`s a next statement. A founder of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, Bond was elected in the Georgia General Assembly at the age of 25. Three years later came this dramatic moment. I will never forget it, the Democratic National Convention, when Julian Bond`s name was put in nomination for vice president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wish to offer a nomination, the wave of the future. It may be a symbolic nomination tonight, but it may not be symbolic four years hence. We offer a nomination with the greatest pleasure, the name of Julian Bond. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Boy, did he look good then. He was only like 28. I think he wasn`t even legal enough to be vice presidential nominee. You had to be 30 to do that. You have to be 30 to do that.   Anyway, Julian Bond went on to become chairman of the NAACP and remained a strong champion of civil rights, as we all know. And in recent years, he spoke up passionately in favor of same-sex marriage. Here he is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JULIAN BOND, FORMER CHAIRMAN, NAACP: When someone asks me are gay rights civil rights, my answer is always, of course they are. Gay and lesbian rights are not special rights in any way. It isn`t special to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary universal entitlement of citizenship. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: That`s why he had 25 honorary degrees. The man could speak clearly about what it is to be an American. Anyway, voting rights remained a defining issue for him. I spoke to him in June of 2013, not long ago, the day the Supreme Court gutted the great Voting Rights Act of `65. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BOND: This is Justice Roberts` dream. He has been trying to do this since he was in the Reagan Justice Department as a younger lawyer and has finally made his dream come true. He`s been able to maneuver the Supreme Court so they have cut, gutted the Voting Rights Act and just as you said made it impossible to block attempts to suppress block voting. This is a good deal for the Republicans. It`s an awful deal for the United States. (END VIDEO CLIP)   MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by Dr. Amos Brown, a former -- actually a board member of the NAACP and a one-time student of Dr. Martin Luther King at Morehouse College. Julian Bond was in that class with him. Actually, they were classmates. And Ari Berman is the author of "Give Us the Ballot: The Modern Struggle for Voting Rights in America." Gentlemen, we only have a little time, but you first, Dr. Brown. Tell us about this man`s role in history and how you knew him personally. Give us the insight on him. DR. AMOS BROWN, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, he was a very gentle, scholarly, and well-cultured man. And I am saddened that my very close friend is no longer with us. He was catapulted into doing great things because of the upbringing that he received in his father`s home, where he saw and heard that he composed the Talented Tenth that Du Bois spoken about that was to be a missionary group to the 90 percent of African-Americans who needed to be enfranchised, needed to be educated, and given the opportunity to enjoy all of the amenities of this nation. MATTHEWS: A natural leader. Let me go to Ari Berman. You`re doing great work on this, Ari, more recently talking about him. Talk about him, his role in terms of gay rights as well. How did he fit into the contemporary arguments? ARI BERMAN, AUTHOR, "GIVE US THE BALLOT: THE MODERN STRUGGLE FOR VOTING RIGHTS IN AMERICA": Well, he was so important in terms of civil rights broadly. He was always for voting rights. He embraced gay rights. And if you look at Julian Bond at the Voting Rights Act, he was someone who was present at of the creation of the Voting Rights Act. He was SNCC`s communications director in Selma, Alabama. He was one of the first black elected officials after the passage of the VRA in 1965. And then, 50 years later, he was still engaged in this battle, as you mentioned, criticizing the Roberts court`s gutting of the Voting Rights Act, urging the Congress to restore the VRA. And so it was sad that, right before Julian`s passing, he felt like he was fighting life all over again, that people like him--   MATTHEWS: Yes, who doesn`t? BERMAN: -- and John Lewis were engaged with the same battles that they thought they won 50 years earlier. MATTHEWS: I know. We keep celebrating what they are already tearing apart. Anyway, I interviewed him about the Voting Rights Act and voter suppression efforts like these phony photo I.D. laws across the country. Here is what Julian Bond had to say, for this is his warning to the Republican Party. Let`s watch him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BOND: So, you have to have them ask themselves, do we want to see a Republican president elected in the next decade or so? Do we want 20 years from now there to be a Republican president of the United States? If we do, we have got to change our behavior. We have got to be attractive to black voters, we have got to be attracted to Hispanic voters. And the way we are behaving now, we`re not attractive to either one. In fact, we`re repulsive to both of them. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Dr. Brown, younger people than you and I don`t know the fact that back in 1964 and `65, overwhelmingly, the Republicans in the House and Senate supported civil rights and voting rights. It was the Dixiecrats who stood against it. And now the Republican Party has taken on the old role of Dixiecrat. BROWN: Well, there had to be someone who would stop our progress that we fought for so hard. MATTHEWS: Yes. BROWN: And I must say Julian was not just concerned about civil rights for black people, but he was concerned about human rights for all people.   He learned that in Dr. King`s class, where Dr. King taught us something about personalism. That is that all persons are to be respected as having worth and dignity and that, in this nation, there should be liberty and justice for all, and all meant all. MATTHEWS: Back to you, Ari. Is this fight over voting rights and all this game-playing by these state assemblies, by the Republicans in the legislatures, one after another, following the ALEC organization -- they go around finding ways to screw the black voter. And it`s as simple as that. I`m not saying they do it because they are black. They do it because they think they are all Democrats. It`s partisanship. I`m not calling it racism. It`s partisanship. Is this going to stop or keep going? BERMAN: Well, it`s going to keep going in 2016, unfortunately, Chris, because this is the first presidential election in 50 years without the full protections of the Voting Rights Act. And so you are going to see in states like North Carolina, Wisconsin new voting restrictions are going to be in effect. They are going to be more difficult to be challenged. And Julian told me that he believed that voting rights were untouchable. He thought we had moved past this issue, and he was shocked at how brazen the Republicans had been in recent years in pursuing these new restrictions, in gutting the Voting Rights Act. And he`s absolutely right that voter suppression is a short-term strategy. You can`t ultimately prevent everybody from voting who doesn`t agree with you. But, unfortunately, that`s the strategy the Republican Party has chosen and is pursuing for the 2016 election. MATTHEWS: Well, think of it this way. It`s even worse. States like Pennsylvania, where I come, where the -- where our ancestors fought the Civil War and many, many thousands of them died to end this kind of crap, you have got their current Republicans out there fighting against voting rights. It`s a shame. It`s worse than a shame. Thank you, Dr. Amos Brown, for joining us for the memory of Julian Bond, a great man who just died. And I`m glad we could salute him tonight. And, Ari Berman, thank you. BROWN: Thank you very much. (CROSSTALK)   MATTHEWS: Ari`s book is called "Give Us a Ballot." It`s too bad we can`t do these eulogies and tributes before somebody does pass away. They would get to hear what they deserve to hear. Up next, will he or won`t he? Joe Biden mulls a bid for the presidency, as Democrats are split over whether -- and they`re really split, the Democrats, which is I think a sophisticated answer. I don`t know what to tell the guy if he would ever listen to me. I don`t know whether I want him to run or not. I tell you, I like the guy. Most of us do. We will see. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) RICHARD LUI, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi. I`m Richard Lui in the MSNBC newsroom. A hacking at the IRS first disclosed in May may be far worse than initially reported. The agency originally saying the data of 114,000 taxpayers was compromised, but the breach may have exposed the info of more than 330,000 people. Royal Dutch/Shell has been given final approval to begin drilling for oil off the coast of Alaska. And the U.S. is extending condolences to Thailand after an explosion left 12 people dead and 81 others hurt. It`s unclear here if the blast is related to terrorism -- now back to HARDBALL. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TOM HARKIN (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I have to tell you, I get around a lot. And people here are not talking about those e-mails.   I don`t get where this is coming from. Hillary is a fighter. Look, I served with Hillary for several years in the Senate on the same committee. I saw this fighter. In terms of Joe Biden, we haven`t we haven`t heard the last of him in terms of what he can offer to the United States in the future. But what this calls for right now is Hillary Clinton, it`s time for a woman, past time as a matter of fact for a woman president. I think the field is out there. It`s set right now. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Wow. Welcome back to HARDBALL. That`s Iowa`s former senator, Tom Harkin, a very popular guy who stayed out of a fight eight years ago between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. But today or this weekend endorsed Hillary Clinton. Harkin said, the former senator said there is no room for Joe in the field. It`s set. He said the field is set. But Biden supporters out there don`t think so and Biden himself was making calls to friends and allies from his vacation in Kiawah, South Carolina, to discuss what a presidential campaign would look like should he run. Well, according to Gallup, Democrats are split over or not he wanted to run. This is a fascinating number. I think it`s really smart by the public out there -- 45 percent say he should run, 47 percent said he shouldn`t. That tells you how finally cut this is. But the relentless questions about over front runner Hillary Clinton`s handling of State Department e-mail has provided an opening for somebody and that means for vice president himself and that wasn`t there a few months ago. Time for the roundtable. Howard Fineman, and this is the big stuff for Howard. I love giving him the big stuff. (LAUGHTER)   MATTHEWS: Global editorial director of "The Huffington Post". We didn`t do little things for Howard. HOWARD FINEMAN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: Global. MATTHEWS: Global, I mean, read it, buddy. April Ryan is, of course, White House correspondent who`s available to opinionate on just about any matter around the world. She`s an American as a I am, American Urban Radio Networks. And Adolfo Franco is a Republican strategist. ADOLFO FRANCO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: That`s right. MATTHEWS: A real -- I love real strategist. What campaigns have you won? FRANCO: Well, we had -- MATTHEWS: What campaigns you won as a strategist? FRANCO: Well, I haven`t won as a strategist.   MATTHEWS: OK, what did you do? FRANCO: For McCain and Romney. MATTHEWS: But you strategize? (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Just to get this right because I always love ways of people are described, I know what this guy does. FRANCO: Yes, yes. MATTHEWS: Name a great strategy overhead. FRANCO: I think the biggest strategy was try to reach out to the Latino community in a way we had never done in the McCain campaign. MATTHEWS: What was that? FRANCO: We did more press, we have more outreach, we had more surrogates than we`ve ever had. MATTHEWS: More?   FRANCO: Yes, yes. FINEMAN: You have to say that that was innovative because very little was being done. (CROSSTALK) FRANCO: It was. MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s go. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Let`s go. Here is the question: is he moving toward a run or moving against one right now as we speak? FINEMAN: As we speak this minute -- as we speak this minute, he`s moving towards it. Now that doesn`t mean he`s going to do it. But calling around today, I was surprised at the extent to which there said people right near him are saying that they`re getting more and more calls. Now with the indirect effect of the e-mail thing and whatever troubles Hillary is having, which I agree are not fatal by any means. MATTHEWS: Is there a bet on the explosion? FINEMAN: They are sort of loosening some tongues and potential money.   MATTHEWS: April, you`re catching my eye on this. APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: I`m catching your eye. MATTHEWS: A lot of times, I known over the years, guys who announced in 1964, weird years for anything could happen, men and women ran like in 1980. Sometimes you just want to be on the ballot because anything can happen. Whoever is on the ballot if Hillary -- if this thing this does explode, the Trey Gowdy team does kick her out of campaign somehow, you want to be on the ballot. RYAN: And this is the time for -- this is the year, non-traditional presidential campaigning time for anything to happen. For Joe Biden to come in at this moment if he does after vacationing and making this decision, he anything can happen. MATTHEWS: Is it bad for him to sit there and hope something explodes? Because right now he can`t beat her. RYAN: Let me say on a couple fronts, if he comes in, there is a windfall of money. I`m hearing from Draft Joe Biden campaign, that in about four to six weeks, about $1.5 million to $2 million they will guard in four to six weeks for money for Joe Biden starting out if he does come in and then also -- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Unlimited money. RYAN: She`s got unlimited money, but at least starting out. But then, you also have the negative side. You have the negative side where, as a White House correspondent, Joe Biden has not made available to the press. If he does run and talk to the press, Joe Biden is sometimes the gift that keeps giving. He likes to be very real. Yes, he talks too much and that`s one of the things the White House tried to work with him on to help him but the problem is he is so real, he has been able to finesse things on the Hill. So, people on the Hill understand him. But when it comes to the public and the press, that`s going to be a problem for him.   MATTHEWS: If you advised him, would he be judged by past problems with plagiarism and stuff? Or the fact that people want to give him a break? Which way is the press going to go? FRANCO: They are not giving him a break. Really, I don`t think -- with all due respect seriousness, for a couple of reasons, first of all, she`s a bad candidate, looking so bad that he started to look good. The fact of the matter, the reason there isn`t a Biden candidacy, is because he`s always been a lousy candidate. You`re right, April. No, no, he`s gaffe-prone -- (CROSSTALK) FRANCO: How many times -- RYAN: His work on Capitol Hill. FRANCO: Let me finish here a second. RYAN: Speaks for itself. FRANCO: How many times have we had a sitting vice president who has not been seriously considered until he had -- MATTHEWS: Dick Cheney. FRANCO: Well, I mean, say a vice president of a president who`s been quite successful. This should have been Barack Obama`s third term. It wasn`t largely because he`s the wrong messenger. She was the anointed and everybody knows it. You know it. All the eggs are put in that basket.   (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: This is HARDBALL. My ears don`t blanch when you say lousy. You don`t think he`s a lousy guy, do you? FRANCO: No, I think he`s a lousy candidate. MATTHEWS: OK, he`s a good guy, right? FRANCO: He`s a good guy. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Is Hillary Clinton a lousy candidate -- FRANCO: She`s a terrible candidate for different reasons. I think he`s an undisciplined candidate. I think she`s overly controlled. MATTHEWS: Well said. FINEMAN: Yes, she`s overly controlled. Joe is famously under controlled. FRANCO: Exactly.   FINEMAN: The one amazing thing about him though is he`s a lifetime politician who at the same time seems to be a real guy and spend a lifetime in politics and still being regarded -- (CROSSTALK) FINEMAN: That`s a trick of some kind worth something. MATTHEWS: The image of Joe Biden is Joe Biden. FINEMAN: I was surprised to learn he thought of himself he might run again. MATTHEWS: For president. FINEMAN: For president. FRANCO: The year of the outsider -- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: I can`t stop this. This is out of my control. By the way, he was a senator at the age of 29 when he was elected. I think he had high hopes. The round table is staying with us.   And coming up, politics comes down to, this is my theory, it`s binary, you either vote yes, I like the way things are going in my party or in the country, or no. Let`s take a look at which candidates are no candidates. We don`t like the way things are going and which candidates are really part of the status quo. We`ll be right back and that`s coming up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: When the Iowa state fair this weekend, by the way, Donald Trump offered his helicopter for rides to children who wanted to go for a ride. But of all the media trailing the Donald, one young boy might have gotten the best scoop of all. Let`s listen this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Mr. Trump. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Are you Batman? TRUMP: I am Batman. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP)   MATTHEWS: We`ll be right back because you can`t beat that. (LAUGHTER) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: We`re back with roundtable. You know, every four years, the American people face a choice yes or no. In fact, back in 2007, Barack Obama represented a hard no to the policies of the Bush administration, none more so than the war in Iraq. Of course, Hillary Clinton on the other hand represents the Obama legacy right now and an affirmation of the current president`s policies. In other words, she`s the candidate of yes much like the President Bush, Bush 41, was in 1988 when the American people said yes to him. So, what will 2016 become? An election of yes or no. Howard, in the Republican Party, will the yes faction win or no faction win? FINEMAN: No, I think some version of the no faction is going to win. MATTHEWS: I agree, which is being led by Trump and -- FINEMAN: If you look at the polls, the no candidates are surging. The yes candidates are falling by the wayside. MATTHEWS: Bush is down to single digit, the yes candidate. Keep it the way it is. How do you see the Republicans going? Yes or no?   RYAN: The Republicans are going to have to take a lot of no because with that yes I think it`s going to be a no. FRANCO: Absolutely a yes candidate. Absolutely. MATTHEWS: So you think Bush will win? FRANCO: I do. This is the silly season and the fun season. I think this is ephemeral. I think this will pass. I think people are in equivalent -- MATTHEWS: Why is Bush sinking in single digits? FRANCO: Because part, we talk about Trump all the time. He`s entertaining -- MATTHEWS: We`ve known about the Bushes for 40 years. FRANCO: Once people start making real choices, activists start participating in primaries and caucuses (INAUDIBLE) time and again -- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK, let`s get the Democratic side. The Democratic side, will Hillary Clinton hold her lead? It`s not much right now. RYAN: She`s got to get all of this e-mail stuff behind her to be able to keep that lead and she`s going to have to really start pushing like Bernie Sanders into the no category so she can become --   MATTHEWS: You mean she`s going to run against the way things are. RYAN: She`s got to go more left. MATTHEWS: Is that dangerous, Howard? FINEMAN: Well, it`s dangerous because the public is not in a happy mood. MATTHEWS: Right. FINEMAN: If you ask where the public is, they`re in a no mood. (CROSSTALK) FRANCO: For the moment. For the moment. FINEMAN: In the general election, that favors the Republicans if they have a plausible candidate. I don`t think it`s likely to be George -- I mean, Jeb Bush. FRANCO: But there isn`t a plausible no candidate. (CROSSTALK)   FRANCO: There isn`t a plausible no candidate. MATTHEWS: In 1968, most of us remember, you don`t, April, but `68, it was the convention in Chicago, it was a lot of anger, we ended up with Nixon, the ultimate yes candidate. But in a way, he was sort of a challenge to the system, too. I just don`t see after all this, let`s disagree here -- FRANCO: OK. MATTHEWS: After all this fighting and anger among African-Americans, among Hispanic, among whites, among everybody young and old, everybody`s bitching right now and we`re going to end up with Jeb Bush after all that? FRANCO: But you`ve seen the program. You`ve seen the declarations Trump made today on immigration. You`ve seen -- (CROSSTALK) FRANCO: There are no plans. Even the plan -- you`re going to deport 12 million people. MATTHEWS: What`s Bush`s plan? FRANCO: You`re going to wreak havoc on the economy? At the end of the day, this is a season of frustration. Voters, as they`ve done, n the past, will come to their senses. (CROSSTALK)   FINEMAN: Listen, Richard Nixon had the ability to run the "let`s bring us together --" remember, he road -- ran on the bring us together campaign. I don`t see -- FRANCO: He was a yes candidate. FINEMAN: I like Jeb Bush. I don`t see him having the arm strength. FRANCO: Marco Rubio. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: April Ryan, what a lively show it`s been on a Monday. Adolfo Franco, thank you. You want to disagree, but fair enough. When we return, let me finish with Donald Trump and why his immigration plan may just resonate with American voters. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with the reason Donald Trump is getting huge attention with his immigration proposal. It`s because he`s the only candidate who people at least believe is saying something. Does anyone trust the other candidates to deal with the challenge of illegal immigration? Does anyone believe any politician out there right now who is ready with a plan to end the endless talk about illegal immigration but also the endless failure to stop it?   Look, if illegal immigration doesn`t bother you, or doesn`t even grab you as an issue, you might pay attention to those to whom it does bother. People who care about illegal immigration now have one candidate who`s speaking out about it and a number of others who are either in the progress of saying, "me, too" on this, or saying something no one believes or even remembers the second after they say it. Trump is saying something. Maybe, just maybe, it will get others to speak out with credible workable fixes to the problem. Senator Schumer and Lindsey Graham have both backed the bipartisan Senate bill which includes enforcement against illegal hiring in this country. For that, they deserve credit. The late Ted Kennedy was also for that bill. Either we have a country or we don`t. And that`s what Donald Trump says. Either we enforce our laws or don`t. We aren`t going to send people out of the country who have been here for years. Just maybe, just maybe Trump`s over-the-top idea, though, will get the so-called responsible politicians to start taking responsibility and end this endless babble about which the country`s establishment has proven itself pretty much worthless to fix. I mean it, they don`t do the job. So, he`s talking a plan. And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us tonight. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>