IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 08/04/15

Guests: Robert Costa, Haley Barbour, Dan Kildee, Jeremy Ben-Ami, John McCormack, Francesca Chambers

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The Trump 10 are in, Perry`s out. Yes, it`s oops again. Let`s play HARDBALL. Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.   Well, we`ve got the lineup. It`s Trump at the top, John Kasich just squeezing in. We now know that 10 Republicans will meet in a primetime debate two nights from now that could well decide who goes on to Iowa and New Hampshire and who begins to fall by the wayside. Here`s the lineup announced by Fox just in the past hour. Front and center, Donald Trump. He`s followed by Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, Chris Christie, and finally, yes, John Kasich made the cut. And here`s who`s been left out of the main debate and relegated to the kids` table, or the happy hour, whatever you want to call it, earlier in the evening. Rick Perry didn`t make the cut. Oops again, as I said. Rick   Santorum -- boy, he used to be a big-timer. Not anymore. Bobby Jindal, no way. Carly Fiorina, out of the game. Lindsey Graham, out of the tame. George Pataki and Jim Gilmore, the latest contestant. He is also out of the game. I`m joined right now by the former chair of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele, Salon editor-at-large Joan Walsh, and "The Washington Post`s" Robert Costa. Thank you all. Joan, I`ll start with you because you`re smiling and I like you so much. But the fact of the matter is, I think Kasich really timed it right. He`s the one candidate who I think is the most appealing, if you`re center- left or center. But the fact that he squeezed in, that Rick Perry`s out   and that Trump has got the catbird seat -- he`s the tent pole. JOAN WALSH, SALON.COM, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. MATTHEWS: He`s the -- as we used to say in Catholic school, the May queen. WALSH: The May queen! I remember that. MATTHEWS: Everybody`s going to be dancing around him, remember? WALSH: The May queen. He`ll love that. MATTHEWS: He`s going to -- and Megyn Kelly and everybody else is going to be gunning for the big guy. It`s all about Trump, it seems to me. WALSH: Yes. I think this is terrible news for Rick Perry, who`s actually run a better campaign, at least a more coherent campaign this time   around, Chris. And it`s great news for John Kasich, who was really worried about being left off the stage a couple weeks ago. And I think it`s a huge opportunity for Kasich, who has wanted to set himself up as a more compassionate conservative, as somebody who`s governed more from the center, who`s done some good things around Medicaid, who`s done some good things around drug treatment and really could be the person. I would look to him to possibly be the person to stand up to Donald Trump if things get ugly and lay out a different path to the presidency. Jeb Bush has been hugely disappointing in playing that role. So I would look to Trump -- to Kasich to be the person who wants to grab the spotlight.   MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, that`s -- you have just framed my discussion right now. WALSH: Well, good! MATTHEWS: Who will stand up to him besides the anchors, who will have to score their own points? WALSH: Sure. MATTHEWS: Will any one of the members of the debating team here say to Trump, Mr. Trump, you are so full of it? The stuff you say about immigrants, the stuff you said about John McCain is rot (ph). MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIR, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think...   MATTHEWS: Is somebody going to say that? STEELE: I think -- well, I think Joan`s right. John Kasich is in the best position to do that. He`s got the home court advantage, if you will. When it talks about governing and it talks about leadership... MATTHEWS: It`s in Cleveland. STEELE: He`s in Cleveland. And he can talk about, well, you know, What we did down the road, how we fixed the bridge over there, how we handled Medicare and Medicaid. So he has sort of that advantage, I think, to play that card should Trump go there. And certainly, I think... MATTHEWS: Why do you -- why do you assume in that, because I think it`s all our assumption, that for some reason, Jeb thinks he can rope-a-   dope this thing, just skip past it, don`t fight with the guy. It`s like road rage -- I`m just going to drive on. STEELE: I don`t... MATTHEWS: I`m going to let this guy yell at me... STEELE: I don`t think Jeb is... MATTHEWS: ... I`m not going to fight with him. STEELE: I wouldn`t say that Jeb is taking that position. I think Jeb is probably doing a wait and see. If attacked, he will respond, kind of thing. But he doesn`t plan to be the one who leads the advance on that. And I don`t think Kasich will, either. MATTHEWS: Robert, who`s the fighting stance right now, going into it?   Anybody? ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, I just got off the phone with Trump`s people. They say Trump spent all day today in Trump Tower in New York. They said he`s going to hold back a little bit. He won`t take the first shot... MATTHEWS: Well, who will, then? COSTA: Well, we see Ben Carson? No, soft-spoken. Kasich -- I think he`s a firecracker! I think he`s someone who wants to get some attention. He has a personality that`s in a way similar to Trump. MATTHEWS: OK... (CROSSTALK)   MATTHEWS: You start on this, Joan. Mike (INAUDIBLE) Mike Wallace, Chris Wallace, his son, is going to be one of the obviously the top anchors here. And he`s saying that some one of the -- one of the three anchors, questioners, is going to put a fastball right down the front, high and in the middle, for one of these candidate -- candidate -- for Trump, rather, to take a shot at one of the other ones, like they`re going to fire -- what do you think of Jeb Bush on this thing? What do you think about Jeb Bush and, We come here for love -- illegal immigrants come here for love? Somebody`s going to try to fire Trump up... WALSH: Right. MATTHEWS: ... with some kind of a fastball. What do you think?   WALSH: Well, you know, I think... MATTHEWS: That`s their goal, he said. WALSH: Look, I think Trump is at a crossroads, too. He`s got to be thinking about, Am I going to be a serious candidate, or am I going to be a bully, a punchline, a carnival barker, all these other things. I mean, he`s doing very well being who he is. But he`s got -- he`s got a ceiling. And we`ve got -- we don`t know if the ceiling is 20 percent, 25 percent, or higher, 30, 35. I don`t know that... MATTHEWS: Well, what`s it take to get you through to, say, South Carolina? Maybe only 25 percent... WALSH: Well, absolutely right...   MATTHEWS: ... because you know, as long as there`s four or five candidates... WALSH: He may think that that`s enough for him. But he could be thinking that, Look, maybe this is a time for me to think about laying out a policy agenda. Maybe this is a time for me to show that I can be a statesman and not just a blowhard. I`m not -- he`s not calling me, so I`m not saying I have any information. WALSH: Yes. WALSH: But it`s an interesting time for him. I think it`s an interesting inflection point in the campaign, to see if he feels like he   has the room to develop a little bit more of a serious side. I doubt it, but somebody over there has to be saying, Look -- take a look at this. MATTHEWS: Well -- well, let me go to Robert. (INAUDIBLE) story that got pushed this afternoon -- "New York" magazine pushed the story that Trump called Rudy Giuliani for help with dealing with Roger Ailes, who runs Fox News, to get Megyn Kelly to go light on him? It turns out, Rudy denies it. We called him. But (INAUDIBLE) kind of story floating around like that? Why would Trump ever get caught, or why would he ever expose himself as that chicken that he had to call for, Gee whiz, help Megyn to lay off me? COSTA: No, I don`t think Trump people -- Trump...   MATTHEWS: How did a story like that get going today? COSTA: Because... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: ... news organization. COSTA: Trump`s allies are calling around to friends, and they`re saying, We`re a little concerned about Fox News. We`re a little bit concerned about this debate. They`re... MATTHEWS: Who would his friends be? COSTA: Well... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: ... the old guys that`s been around forever, Roger Stone   maybe? COSTA: You know who`s around Trump (ph). (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Well, there`s Pat Caddell now. There`s all kinds of names floating around. COSTA: Carter`s guy, he`s floating around. But look, Trump`s people, they thought they could ride this summer, get a lot of energy. MATTHEWS: Yes. COSTA: But they`re -- they -- they`re -- they are concerned, Wallace, Megyn Kelly going to come right at him, as you say... MATTHEWS: Of course, they`re going to come after him!   COSTA: ... with the fastball. STEELE: Well, because he`s... (CROSSTALK) COSTA: ... and they want to have an answer, and they don`t want to overdo it with Fox, knowing how... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Fox is going to have the highest rating it`ll probably ever have in history. WALSH: Right. MATTHEWS: And it`s got to come out and show it`s not just... (CROSSTALK)   COSTA: ... Trump got high. He got high fast in the polls. He wants to stay there. He... MATTHEWS: Who will prick the balloon? Who will put a big puncture in it? STEELE: I still believe... MATTHEWS: Anybody? STEELE: ... the only person who punctures that balloon is Trump himself. I don`t think -- look, you look at how -- what happened after his comments on McCain. You look at... (CROSSTALK) COSTA: They think Walker may. They think Walker`s donors are telling   him maybe it`s time to pick a fight. STEELE: I just don`t -- I think... COSTA: Walker has seen his campaign a little flat, not... (CROSSTALK) COSTA: ... going to take an aggressive shot... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: I think Walker wins -- if this guy lasts three or four months, Walker or Kasich picks up after him. Anyway, on "MORNING JOE" today, Trump explained why he thinks the polls show him doing so well. Isn`t that a nice question? Why are you doing so well, Mr. Trump?   (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Here, let`s watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that people are tired, they`re sick and tired of incompetent politicians. Nobody knows the politicians, you know, better than me. Don`t forget, three months ago, I was on the other side of the ledger. I was the fair-haired boy in the RNC. When I get up and speak, I get the biggest crowds. We get standing ovations. And all we do is talk about how great our country could be. And I mean that. Our country has such potential. But if it continues to go at this path, it`s going to be almost impossible to bring it back. It`s   really far down the line. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Joan, what happened to the old notion that, man (ph), in order to woo support from other people, had to be a little humble, that you couldn`t go around bragging about yourself all the time? This guy is breaking all the rules. And I think I used to act like him when I was younger. But the fact is, he`s getting away from being boorish. He is doing all this stuff that Chris Christie did, but he`s doing it -- he`s much worse to reporters than Chris Christie ever was. WALSH: Right. And he`s... (CROSSTALK)   MATTHEWS: ... seems to be doing well, and the media hasn`t tagged him. And he has these self-sealing tires he drives on. He gets punctured -- he punctures himself, and they just seal up again and he keeps rolling! WALSH: He`s also running down the country. I mean, the way he talks about the country is so negative. And that appeals to a segment of the Republican base. We know that. But you know, one thing I think he`s right about is that people do feel like... MATTHEWS: That doesn`t appeal -- who -- how does running down the country appeal to anybody? WALSH: People -- look, people who think that Barack Obama is an illegitimate president, who`s...   MATTHEWS: No, the country, you said! WALSH: Well, the -- people feel that way -- listen to what he said. I`m saying, that`s what he said, Our country is in danger. And it... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: ... not running down the country, it`s worried about our country is different than... WALSH: If you replay that... MATTHEWS: ... talking down. WALSH: There`s something very negative about the way he talks about where we are now. We`re still actually a great country, and by many measures, we`re doing better than we were eight years ago.   But at any rate, I think one thing he`s right about is this notion that his base is very frustrated with the Republican Party. And why not? They have promised time and again and broken their promises. They`ve promised crazy things. We`re going to repeal "Obama care." They can`t do it. We`re going to shut down the government and we`re going to defund "Obama care." No, can`t do that. We`re going to refuse to lift the debt ceiling. We`re going to defund Planned Parenthood. No, you can`t do that. And so Trump is somebody who doesn`t really have to deliver on anything, but he can point to these guys who`ve raised the hopes... MATTHEWS: OK...   WALSH: ... of the right-wing minority, and then they can`t deliver on any of it because the country doesn`t want it. MATTHEWS: I agree with all. Let me go back to the Republican Party and its general failure. You know, I`ve got -- Haley Barbour is going to come on in a few minutes. I taped this a few minutes ago, an hour ago, so -- and he gets in to the question of how he wants Trump to say, I`m not running third party. He wants a commitment to that. So that`s going to be interesting, commit to that... COSTA: Every single insider -- they want that. They`re really fearful Trump`s going to continue... (CROSSTALK)   MATTHEWS: I want to get back to the problem... STEELE: So what if he does? You really think at the end of the day... (CROSSTALK) STEELE: ... he`s going to hold that? MATTHEWS: OK, let`s go to the problem in the Republican Party. The number two guy in the polls that set up this debate is Jeb Bush, the one everybody -- every money person I talk to in the Democratic Party, I think every Republican money guy thinks it`s Bush. They just think it`s Bush because he`s got money, and money people think money talks. OK, fine. But look at what happened to his numbers. The latest NBC/"Wall Street   Journal" poll found that Jeb Bush -- his favorability has dropped dramatically. Only about a quarter of Americans view him positively. Four in ten Americans have an unfavorable view of him. Among Republicans, only about half view him favorably, a decrease from last month. According to NBC`s "First Read," these aren`t just tough numbers for Jeb, they`re hard to get the nomination numbers. I believe, if we spend this fall talking up Donald Trump, there`s no way you can go to Bush after that. You got to go to somebody more working class, more regular, more new, like Walker or Kasich. You can`t go back to the old establishment. You`re shaking your head. STEELE: Well, I -- I...   MATTHEWS: You think you can go all the way back... STEELE: I think -- I think that number two spot is a sweet spot for Bush right now. It gives him cover. It gives him opportunity on the ground to continue to build out his base. MATTHEWS: But where`s all the anger go? STEELE: The anger -- we had anger in `08. MATTHEWS: Well, where`s it going to go? (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: I`ve got my hands up like Trump! STEELE: Chris... MATTHEWS: My hands are up!   STEELE: Chris -- Chris, we had... MATTHEWS: Where is the -- where does the anger go? (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: You can`t do that. STEELE: I mean, but at the end of the day... MATTHEWS: You can`t do this! STEELE: At the end of the day, the base understands and the base -- you know... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: They take it again from the rich guys. (CROSSTALK)   WALSH: Right. MATTHEWS: We`re not going to run another Bush. STEELE: But this rich guy who`s in the lead right now they consider to be one of them. MATTHEWS: That`s right. But I`m talking about... (CROSSTALK) COSTA: The debate`s not about playing... MATTHEWS: OK... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Joan, do you think they`re going to tuck it in again and say, OK, we`re going to run with the old WASPy Whig Party...   WALSH: No. MATTHEWS: ... the same old wealthy people with good notions to make them feel a little better. WALSH: I think that`s a really -- I think that`s really a big worry for the Republican Party and for people like Michael. I really think you`re right that it`s going to be very hard to accept a Jeb Bush. And can we also say, my God, Jeb Bush is running a terrible campaign. I mean, I don`t know how being number two and sometimes number three actually is good for him. MATTHEWS: OK... WALSH: He seems to be counting his money. He made another   misspeaking today, where he said, oh, he thinks, why do we need a half billion dollars for women`s health? And then he had to walk it back and say, Oh, I only meant that about Planned Parenthood. He walked back the size of ISIS. He walked back the question in Iraq. He walked back... MATTHEWS: OK (INAUDIBLE) WALSH: ... the minimum wage. (CROSSTALK) WALSH: He`s terrible. MATTHEWS: Can we agree both front-runners are not doing that great? Hillary`s not doing that great, either. (CROSSTALK)   WALSH: ... a lot better than he is. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: But you had to say that out of the side of your mouth. You didn`t say that with enthusiasm. You just said... (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: OK, much, much -- OK, great. We`ll argue about that. I just -- we`ll see. STEELE: Bernie... MATTHEWS: Anyway, I think -- I think she`s doing better than he`s doing. Bush is shrinking. WALSH: We can agree.   COSTA: It`s summer. It`s summer. STEELE: It`s summer. It`s summer... COSTA: I`m just saying you can`t write him off. (CROSSTALK) WALSH: You can`t write him off. He`s counting his money. You can`t write him off, it`s true. MATTHEWS: God, money talks. BS walks. Remember that? Ozzie Myers (ph). Anyway, Michael Steele, on that sad note, Robert Costa and Joan Walsh. As we get ready for Thursday`s Republican debate, we`re going to talk to former presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani tomorrow night. He`s coming   to HARDBALL here. Coming up, by the way, the Republican establishment never saw it coming. Donald Trump`s on the top of the field heading to the first debate. He`s the tent pole right in the middle. And now former party chair Haley Barbour wants Trump to use Thursday`s debate to promise on the record he will not make a third party run for president if he doesn`t get the Republican nomination. We`ll see if he does that. MATTHEWS: Plus, today, of course, Tuesday. Clown Car Tuesday keeps coming around, finds Scott Walker behind the wheel this time. He`s playing the ugly game of pretending he doesn`t know what religion President Obama is. What pandering to the worst in the far right!   And Donald Trump`s creating his own party, it seems, building a movement. Now he`s got Sarah Palin in his cotillion. He`s working to get street cred with conservatives. Finally, "Let Me Finish" with those working men and women out there backing Donald Trump right now. And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRES. CANDIDATE: And I will tell you, it`s three agencies of government when I get there that are gone, Commerce, Education -- and the -- what`s the third one there? Let`s see... (LAUGHTER)   UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) five. PERRY: Oh, five? OK. So Commerce, Education and the... REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: EPA? PERRY: EPA, there you go. (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seriously? Is EPA the one you were talking about or... PERRY: No, sir. No, sir. We were talking about the agencies of government. EPA needs to be rebuilt. There`s no doubt about that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you can`t name the third one?   PERRY: The third agency of government I would -- I would do away with Education, the... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commerce. PERRY: Commerce, and let`s see -- I can`t, the third one. I can`t. Sorry. Oops. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: "Oops." Who can forget that infamous moment from Rick Perry back in the 2011 CNBC debate among Republican primary candidates. Thanks to a surge from John Kasich, by the way, Rick Perry has now sunk down to the kiddie table or the -- what`s it called, the happy hour this Thursday, narrowly missing the cut for the primetime debate.   But we`ll be there with full coverage of both events. Join me Thursday night live from Cleveland, the home of the Indians, from 7:00 to 9,:00 and back again from 11:00 to 1:00 in the morning Eastern time. We`ll be right back now. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. With a record 17 candidates vying for the nomination, the Republican Party has a long road before their convention next summer. Their fortunes in 2016 will rest entirely, of course, on the person they choose to eventually face their likely Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton. Well, back in April, former Republican National Committee chairman   Haley Barbour urged his party to pick a candidate who can win voters in the middle of the ideological spectrum. Quote, "When Democrats move further to the left and Republicans further to the right, you risk -- the risk is you hollow out the middle. Never let purity be the enemy of victory. If you demand perfection in your candidates or your party, you`re going to be disappointed because only one perfect person ever walked the earth, and he ain`t going to be running for election next year." Well -- but when Republican voters were asked in a new NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll what was most important to them in selecting the Republican nominee, only 12 percent said their top concern was choosing a   candidate who can beat the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton. Fifty-four percent said it was more important to choose a candidate who comes closer to their views on issues. I`m joined right now by the long-time former Republican Party chair Haley Barbour, who was also for a long time governor of Mississippi during Hurricane Katrina. He`s written a new book called "America`s Great Storm," which comes out later this month in time for the tenth anniversary of that disaster. Governor, we`ll have you on for that. I`ve read the book. I`ve blurbed it. You were the only good guy to come out of that whole hell, anyway.   Let`s talk about the -- your party because you`re a pragmatist, and yet your party seems to do what the old liberals used to say in the Democratic Party, "NDC," "November Doesn`t Count.` We`re going to vote for who we care about, who we like the most. HALEY BARBOUR (R), FMR. MISSISSIPPI GOVERNOR, FORMER RNC CHAIR: Well, I think any time you ask people in a poll, What`s the most important thing -- agrees with me, strong leader. And that`s very natural. But as you get closer to the election, it gets more and more on your mind, We got to win. You don`t get to govern unless you win. And in the two-party system, where both parties are broad, diverse parties, both parties, purity is the enemy of victory. And I see the Democrats going hard to the left and saying so.   You have seen fluff and... MATTHEWS: You think that Bernie Sanders is pulling Hillary over? (CROSSTALK) BARBOUR: I don`t. I think Hillary`s campaign plan is to run hard left. They have said publicly, we`re not going to do what Bill Clinton did. We`re not going to try to capture the center. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: You don`t think that`s a smart move, do you? BARBOUR: I really don`t. I had the privilege of working for Ronald Reagan, a guy who got more   than 60 percent of the vote. And he flew under bold colors. But he had divided government the whole time. And he wanted to get things done. So, when the time came, he compromised on virtually everything to make a huge amount of progress. MATTHEWS: Anyway, Republican candidate Ted Cruz says the party should avoid what he calls the mushy middle, directly the opposite of what you`re saying. Here`s what he said on CNBC late last year. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we run another candidate in the mold of a Bob Dole or a John McCain or Mitt Romney, we will end up with the same result, which is millions of people will stay   home on Election Day, which is what happened for all three of them. If we run another candidate like that, Hillary Clinton will be the next president. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: What do you make of that? He`s saying don`t go anywhere near the middle because you will end up with mush. BARBOUR: Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion. My view is that we have to have somebody, a solid conservative, who will be for the right things, but who understands that you don`t get to impose things unless you have huge, huge majorities. MATTHEWS: Well, that`s usually a governor, because governors have to   work with the other side most of the time. BARBOUR: That`s right. And that`s my experience. MATTHEWS: You have got Kasich out there. You have got Walker out there. You have got Jeb Bush out there. They all know how to work with the other side. BARBOUR: You have got seven governors in the race. Well, eight when you count Jim Gilmore, who got in yesterday. MATTHEWS: Yes. BARBOUR: I do believe you should run your party, run your campaign so that 60 percent of voters think I might vote for that guy. I might vote for that party.   That`s what Reagan did. And he and Nixon in `72 were the only candidates in my lifetime that got over 60 percent of the vote. MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at this, because you know what`s going on right now this week. It`s called Donald Trump. Republican front-runner Donald Trump first won the attention of the political world back in 2011 by making the outrageous claim that President Obama wasn`t born in the U.S. Let`s take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I feel strongly about the fact that Barack Obama should give his birth certificate. Three weeks ago, when I started, I thought he was born in this   country. And now I really have a much bigger doubt than I did before. If he has a birth certificate, he should release it. All I want to is see this guy`s birth certificate. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) TRUMP: If he weren`t lying, why wouldn`t he just solve it? And I wish he would, because, if he doesn`t, it`s one of the greatest scams in the history of politics and in the history, period. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Of course, President Obama did release his birth certificate, but as recently as last month, Trump said he still doesn`t know if the president was born in this country. Let`s watch him.   (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: I`m asking you now, do you accept that President Obama was born in the United States? (CROSSTALK) TRUMP: No, I don`t know. I really don`t know. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: What`s this game about? And can you run a guy that doesn`t even accept the legitimacy of his predecessor? How can he succeed President Obama in office after he says he shouldn`t have been there because he`s not a citizen? He wasn`t born naturalized -- or natural-born American?   BARBOUR: I don`t think that`s the biggest problem for Donald Trump. MATTHEWS: Why he is doing this? BARBOUR: Well, you will have to ask him why he`s doing it. But Donald Trump`s biggest problem for having a chance to win the Republican nomination is, he will not rule out running as an independent or a third-party candidate. Every Republican -- literally, there was a poll the other day; 80-some percent of Republicans said, if Trump runs as an independent, that gives the White House to the Democrats, just like Ross Perot gave the White House to the Democrats, when Bill Clinton only got 43 percent of the vote in one 1992. I think that is what people...   (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Is he a loyal Republican, Haley Barbour? Is he a loyal Republican? BARBOUR: I don`t know him well enough to make that assessment. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: You`re saying you want... (CROSSTALK) BARBOUR: But what I`m saying is, if he is, he should say it in the debate. I will not run as a third-party candidate. I want to have a Republican president. And, of course, he`s going to say he would like for it to be him. But   if it`s not him, then he`s not going to sabotage the chance to elect a conservative Republican president. MATTHEWS: If he runs third-party, is that the end for anybody you nominate in your party? BARBOUR: I don`t see how we can win if you get a guy who can get 3 or 4 percent as a third-party candidate. And I don`t see how anybody who is serious about running for the Republican nomination cannot rule that out. MATTHEWS: Do you have a sense when you look at Donald Trump in his history -- he`s been back and forth on a lot of issues, like abortion rights and things like that, the usual issues we argue about. Do you think he`s a Republican? Do you look at him as a fellow   Republican? BARBOUR: I take it at face value. MATTHEWS: Well, has he ever said he`s a Republican? BARBOUR: Well, he hasn`t said he`s a Republican to me, but he and I don`t talk all the time. MATTHEWS: Right. Well, I`m going to give you a shot... (CROSSTALK) BARBOUR: But, look, here`s the fact. MATTHEWS: Yes. BARBOUR: The guy has touched a chord in the country. The country is angry. The country is unhappy. It`s got good reason to be.   Both on our economy and our national security, we have been going the wrong direction. And he`s tapped into that. But you and I both know polling taken in the summer of this year is not predictive of what`s going to happen in the spring of next year. MATTHEWS: Yes, but let me just ask you this. You`re the best guy I know off the record when it comes to politics. If it`s off the record and nobody`s watching, you`re absolutely down the middle, straight. You don`t have to be a partisan. And it seems to me that this is leading somewhere. How do you go from the big polls all supporting Trump right now to an establishment figure like Bush? It seems to me that`s a hell of a move, where somewhere in the middle between the two of them are   Kasich, Walker, people like that, that are a little more working-class, a little more regular, a little more like the Trump voter than a Bush. Do you think he`s influencing your election by being such a big deal now, or will he vanish in importance by next year? Is he an influence on your party? BARBOUR: Well, I think that remains to be seen. MATTHEWS: Really? You mean it may not have an influence? BARBOUR: What I do believe strongly, that this is largely about celebrity. I thought Rand Paul made a very important point over the weekend. He said to some reporter, well, if you all put me on TV twice an hour from   8:00 in the morning to 8:00 at night every day, I would go up in the polls, too. MATTHEWS: Yes. You know, you put most of these people on the air from 8:00 to 8:00, we`d all be asleep. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: I`m sorry. I don`t buy that theory one bit. I don`t buy it at all. Anyway, thank you, Haley Barbour. You`re a loyal Republican. We will have you back when the book is out. It`s called? BARBOUR: "America`s Great Storm." It`s the story of the worst natural disaster in American history.   MATTHEWS: Well, you`re the expert on it, because you`re the one guy, I would say, who looked good in that whole thing. Up next: President Obama continues his lobbying campaign in support of the Iranian nuclear deal, but can he convince Jewish groups to back the agreement? Well, he can in some cases. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CRUZ: I believe this Obama Iranian nuclear deal is the single gravest national security threat facing America. It is a catastrophic deal. Over a hundred billion dollars will flow into Iran. Iran is the world`s leading   state sponsor of terrorism. I pointed out a couple of weeks ago that if this deal goes through that the Obama administration will become the world`s leading global financier of radical Islamic terrorism. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Opponents of the nuclear deal with Iran have been using near apocalyptic warnings like that one to kill the agreement. But it`s not clear it will work. President Obama continued his lobbying efforts today meeting with Jewish leaders, both supporters and critics of the deal. But in a dueling address today, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu told 10,000 participants in a live Webcast aimed at American Jewish people   that the nuclear deal -- quote -- "paves Iran`s path to a bomb." I`m joined right now by U.S. Congressman Dan Kildee, Democrat of Michigan, and Jeremy Ben-Ami, who is president of J Street, a progressive pro-Israeli group, pro-Israel group that supports -- I want to start with Jeremy, who is here. How do you make the case against this onslaught of big money, big ads in "The New York Times"? You would get the sense that the American Jewish community is scared to death, thinks it`s the worst deal in the world, and yet the polls show the opposite. JEREMY BEN-AMI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, J STREET: I think the case has to be rooted in the fact that this is actually a good deal.   The facts actually are 100 percent on the president`s side. It is not a question of whether or not Iran is a good regime. We will stipulate that it`s a bad actor. The question is, does this stop the country`s pathways to a nuclear weapon? And every single expert on the topic -- put aside politicians and fear-mongers -- the people who are experts, nuclear proliferation experts, security experts, military people, say this deal is a good deal and it stops Iran`s pathways to a bomb. MATTHEWS: Congressman, I read the papers, like we all do. And I get this sense day after day that the pressure, political pressure from AIPAC, the American-Israel political action committee, and the others is so strong, the money they`re spending, $40 million -- now   maybe that is not the biggest money in the world, but it`s a lot. They have now formed a new group to spearhead the effort. Citizens for a Nuclear-Free Iran released this ad. Look at this ad and tell me what it does to members of Congress, sir. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NARRATOR: Iran keeps their nuclear facilities. Military sites can go uninspected. Restrictions end after 10 years. Then Iran could build a nuclear weapon in two months. Iran has violated 20 international agreements and is the leading state sponsor of terrorism. Congress should reject a bad deal. (END VIDEO CLIP)   MATTHEWS: But what that ad doesn`t tell you, Congressman, is that Iran could build a bomb in two months right now. The only thing standing between them and building a bomb right now is this deal. Your thoughts? REP. DAN KILDEE (D), MICHIGAN: That`s the thing. And, first of all, members of Congress really should think about what legacy they want to leave, not what the politics of the moment are. This deal, we can criticize it and scrutinize it, but the only way to evaluate this deal is against what the real possibilities are if this deal does not go forward. And that is that, as you said, Iran could have a bomb within months. And we really have to measure the quality of this deal, what it does. It   gets us years and years with scrutiny, with eyes on the ground in Iran, so that, if they cheat, we will know it. The alternative is much more treacherous than any of the criticism that this deal, you know, might endure. And I think members of Congress are going to have to think about what legacy they want to leave. Are we going to embrace diplomacy and give it a chance, knowing that all of the other options that we might use are still available to us if Iran cheats or goes down the wrong path? And I think that`s what members of Congress should think about, not the politics of the moment. MATTHEWS: I get a sense, gentlemen in the end it is going to be Nancy   Pelosi, the leader of the Democrats in the House, that is going to have to save this for the president. It`s getting very tricky, treacherous even. BEN-AMI: Well, you have seen some really important Democratic leaders in the House who had not really shown their cards before come out in the last couple of days supporting the president, Adam Schiff, senior Democrat on the Intelligence Committee. MATTHEWS: Barbara Boxer, senator from California. BEN-AMI: Barbara Boxer. MATTHEWS: I was so impressed by Durbin coming out, Senator Durbin. BEN-AMI: Sandy Levin. MATTHEWS: Yes.   (CROSSTALK) BEN-AMI: You`re seeing some momentum. MATTHEWS: These are people I have known all my political life and I have always respected. But I understand this is strong pressure from AIPAC. Congressman Kildee, how does it look to you, as a politician, when you look at your caucus over there? You are not going to get much help from the Republicans. Can you hold 146 members against this effort? KILDEE: Well, the number, it`s probably going to be close. We hear members, you know, coming out every day announcing their position. My view is -- and I know something about Iran. I, for the last 2.5   years, have represented a family that has one of the Americans being held in Iran. MATTHEWS: Yes, Hekmati. KILDEE: So, I think members who really look at this deal and really evaluate the deal against the logical alternative that is in front of us, they are going to come out in favor of it. I think if members look at this it`s in terms of a political calculation and not what it means in terms of the security of the region and the security of the world, they may come to a different conclusion. But I think you`re right. I think we will have the votes in the House, but I think we`re going to have to be persuasive.   My goal is to call on members to examine their conscience and examine the deal and come to a conclusion, and I think they will say yes. MATTHEWS: I think they should read a copy of "Profiles in Courage" on this occasion. I mean it. KILDEE: I think you`re right. MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, U.S. Congressman Dan Kildee. And thank you, Jeremy Ben-Ami. Up next, it`s clown car Tuesday, a little lightening effect here. And today it`s how Ted Cruz cooks his bacon and a new page in the birther playbook, as if it needed one. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.   (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DARA BROWN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Dara Brown. Here`s what`s happening. The massive Rocky wildfire burning in Northern California continues to grow. It`s destroyed more than 100 square miles and is threatening nearly 7,000 homes. Jurors deciding the fate of Colorado movie theater gunman James Holmes heard testimony today from victims` family members. The jury is deciding whether Holmes should receive the death penalty or life in prison without parole. And three major U.S. airlines have barred the transport of animals   killed by trophy hunters. The move was sparked by outrage over the killing of a protected lion in Zimbabwe -- back to HARDBALL. MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. It`s clown car Tuesday again. And with Donald Trump sucking all the oxygen out of the GOP field, his rivals will do and say anything, it seems, to get some attention -- some attention. Last month, Lindsey Graham set his cell phone on fire after Trump gave out his personal cell phone in a campaign event in Graham`s home state of South Carolina. Rand Paul took a chainsaw to the tax code as a rock `n` roll rendition of "The Star-Spangled Banner" played in the background.   And Mike Huckabee claimed that the president`s nuclear agreement with Iran is, quote, "marching the Israelis to the door of the oven." And then, yesterday, Texas Senator Ted Cruz became the latest Republican contender to distinguish himself from his opponents, in a new video produced by the conservative media outlet "IJReview", Cruz demonstrates how to cook bacon, as he put it, Texas-style, wrapped around the barrel of a machine gun. Here he is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Texas, we cook bacon a little differently than most folks. (MUSIC)   CRUZ: Mmm, machine gun bacon. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Wow. Kasie Hunt is an MSNBC political reporter, John McCormack is senior writer for "The Weekly Standard", and Francesca Chambers is White House correspondent for "The Daily Mail". Kasie, I don`t know how to make fun of people when they do that. Where do we go from there? What`s the satire on that? That seems like it carries the satire with it. Bacon wrapped around a gun at the time we have police shootings, we have people getting killed, people shooting cops, we have murder rates in   Chicago and Baltimore that are frightening. This guy is out there enjoying his machine gun. By the way, machine guns have been outlawed since the `30s. Your thoughts? KASIE HUNT, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, that`s -- yes, we`re undergoing difficult things. I think on the lighter side of this, obviously, this "I.J. Review" has done this with several candidates. MATTHEWS: What`s the message? HUNT: Well, look, I think the message is he`s trying to reach out to people who, you know, respond to that. MATTHEWS: Who like machine guns?   HUNT: Who like machine guns, who like -- I mean, look, I`ve been hunting with Ted Cruz, I will say, full disclosure. The guy is pretty comfortable with a gun. This is not something that is out of the ordinary. But I think he`d be the first person to tell you that, as he told me, it`s not something that he necessarily grew up with right away. It`s not something that`s been incorporated into his life even though he does have the basic knowledge of how to do it. I think you`re seeing him try to reach out to that -- MATTHEWS: What does this got to do with running for president, John? JOHN MCCORMACK, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD" SR. WRITER: This has to do with campaigning in the age of the internet. IJReview, they seek to be a   conservative sort of "BuzzFeed". The Internet loves bacon, conservatives love guns. You put the two together and you get instant equals clicks. I think that`s really all there is to it. It`s meant to be a goofy thing. I don`t think it`s meant to be a serious, or a statement about anything. MATTHEWS: Why would it get me to vote for him, or anybody in the middle politically? Why would it appeal to anyone? MCCORMACK: People who like guns, people who like someone who`s laid back enough to make a goofy video like this. I think a lot, to younger voters, I mean, this is what "IJReview" -- MATTHEWS: Younger voters who are into machine guns.   MCCORMACK: I know. I mean, there`s people who are -- it`s not a machine gun, first of all. A machine gun is fully automatic. MATTHEWS: I thought they said it was a machine gun. MCCORMACK: I think he`s -- it`s exaggeration. It`s an exaggeration. FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, THE DAILY MAIL: It was an AR-15. MATTHEWS: Explain. Was it bup, bup, bup, bup, or just hold the trigger down? CHAMBERS: It was actually not a machine gun. MATTHEWS: So, it`s semi-automatic. CHAMBERS: Rachel Maddow spent a lot of time -- MATTHEWS: Semiautomatic.   CHAMBERS: It was an AR-15. You asked who the audience is for this. Absolutely, I think that you`re right, that it`s young people. And not necessarily young people on the right. Young people of the Internet age that like viral videos and like to see bacon cooked on a gun. I think that`s the audience for this. And I think as you said earlier, Chris, that Trump is sucking all the air out of the room, so some of the candidates are getting desperate to make headlines, and to get earned media. I guess what we`re talking about right now. We`re talking about Ted Cruz and this video and we`re not talking about Donald Trump. So it`s successful. MATTHEWS: But you`re positive about this?   CHAMBERS: I`m not necessarily saying that I`m positive about it. I`m just saying -- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: You guys, look -- look at your hands. I just caught your hands. This the Donald Trump day. Hey, isn`t this great? CHAMBERS: I`m saying it was effective at stealing back headlines from Donald Trump. Effective. MATTHEWS: Like this, hey, it`s this. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Anyway, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker earns a seat in the clown car because he says he still isn`t sure President Obama is a fellow   Christian. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MODERATOR: Is President Obama a Christian? GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You`re not going to get different answers than I said before. I said I don`t know. I presume he is by his comments in the past, but I`ve never asked him about that. And as someone who`s a believer myself, I don`t presume to know someone`s beliefs about whether they follow Christ or not unless I`ve actually talked with them and understand them. But he said he has, so I`ll take his word. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: What`s the answer for it, Francesca? I don`t know. Why do   people question -- if somebody said to me, I`m Jewish, I say, you`re Jewish, you just said so, you are. You are in this country what you say you are. That`s how people accept other`s religious decision making and identity. Why would you say, I don`t know? He says he is, but I don`t know. What does that mean? CHAMBERS: Well, I think he now has to stick with the original answer that he gave, because if Scott Walker now comes back and says, I`ve decided that President Obama is a Christian now, and then he would look like he`s flip-flopping. MATTHEWS: Why are people questioning? There`s no religious test for   office in this country. It`s in our Constitution. Why are people questioning each other`s religion, John? MCCORMACK: I think the smart thing to say politically is just, "yes, next question." But a charitable interpretation of this is that Walker is saying, "I believe there`s more than just a label." You got to have some level, maybe he`s an evangelical who thinks a personal relationship with Jesus or some credo beliefs. I don`t know what it is. The question I would ask Walker is, what would Obama have to say to you to convince you of that? I think that`s the most charitable interpretation. You know, Hillary Clinton got the trouble when she said I assume Obama   is not a Muslim as far as I know. So, anytime you -- MATTHEWS: Why talk like that? MCCORMACK: Yes, when you hint at this, you get this trouble. I don`t read anything sinister in this, unlike, you know, Mark Penn, Hillary`s chief strategist. He said in 2007 that Obama was fundamentally un-American in his thinking and values. Now, that -- (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: The questionnaire you fill out. You really believe the guy`s religion is what he says it is? HUNT: I think what you saw there is an example of -- to a certain extent Walker being his own political strategist and saying, you know, he   took a lot of heat for saying this the first time from people who might have otherwise been considered in his own camp. He`s obviously not taking that advice and he`s also probably concerned as being viewed as a flip- flopper, if you put that in context. MATTHEWS: Well, it`s a fairly depressing roundtable so far. We`re going to stick them. We`ll give them another shot. Up next, the big city billionaire and self-described mama grizzly. Why Donald Trump and Sarah Palin have come together in this race for 2016? And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Well, happy birthday to President Obama who turned 54   today. In honor of the occasion, former President Bill Clinton tweeted, "Happy birthday, POTUS. Hopefully when FLOTUS isn`t looking, you can have some cake." He also used the #44turns54. How hip. And for her party, First Lady Michelle Obama tweeted "Happy birthday to a loving husband, wonderful father and my favorite dance partner." I didn`t know Obama danced. Anyway, "54 looks good on you." That`s pretty good line. And we`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Back with our roundtable, Kasie, John and Francesca. You know, I think it`s really smart that Sarah Palin has been brought   into this cotillion with Donald Trump. He`s now building kind of a team Trump, a Trump party. What do you think, John? MCCORMACK: I think it`s smart. I mean, she`s got a very intense, passionate base. It might not huge, but it`s so intense. I think she also protects him from his greatest vulnerable, which people are figuring out that he`s a reality TV star, not a conservative. That he`s supported partial birth abortion. MATTHEWS: She`s got the bona fides. MCCORMACK: I think so, yes. They`re impeccable. So, I mean, he`s for partial birth abortion, the stimulus, he   supporter Canadian style single-payer health care. This is not a conservative. This is a guy who wants to play to the crowd and get a lot of attention. I think that -- MATTHEWS: It shows -- Kasie, I think it shows him a leader. I think you always can tell if somebody is leader or not. You look behind, anybody following? That was the problem with Obama for a long time, nobody back there, just him. This guy looks like he`s building a force in the party. Even Ted Cruz seems to be hobbling along behind him saying, you know, your guy, the hunting buddy of yours, you got to hunting with? HUNT: That is a little -- that`s an over exaggeration.   MATTEHWS: I take it back. You only went with him once. HUNT: I was covering him, OK? No, but they, look -- MATTHEWS: Was somebody shooting at him, you got to cover him? HUNT: No, no one was shooting at him. He was with Steve King. No one got accidental -- MATTHEWS: Steve King, the one from Iowa? HUNT: Congressman Steve King in Iowa. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: What is it? Cantaloupe leg Hispanics he was looking for up there. HUNT: He has an annual pheasant hunt. I was covering Ted Cruz in   those annual pheasant hunt. MATTHEWS: How did you do? HUNT: I didn`t pick up a gun, full disclosure. MATTHEWS: So, tell me about the serious question here. What about Sarah Palin? Because I think Sarah Palin is a little bit yesterday. But I think he brings her back in the game and establishes her gender balance there. She`s a woman, sort of an Annie Oakley type, cowboy type, Westerner. I think it`s smart. HUNT: I think the reality is that there`s a lot of crossover between people who were really excited about Sarah Palin, and people who are now telling Republican pollsters they`re going to back Donald Trump.   MATTHEWS: What`s the message? Is the message from the establishment, OK, we didn`t go to eastern colleges? But we`re Americans as you are? HUNT: That`s a big part of it. That`s a big part of it. I mean, a lot of the people who are supporting Donald Trump, you know, they`re not necessarily billionaires. He`s not tagged with what Mitt Romney was tagged with. He`s viewed as somebody who has achieved something that a lot of normal people feel like, you know what, if he can do it, maybe I can do it, too. And if I have this money, I would live like that. And for Romney, he didn`t come across -- MATTHEWS: That`s a Republican value by the way, self-made people. THJEY   CHAMBERS: Absolutely. To speak to your point, a lot of people who are supporting Trump did not go to college at all, not just eastern liberal colleges. They didn`t go to college at all. I think what Sarah Palin does do is give him credibility. She may not have a large following -- MATTHEWS: She went to about 20 colleges in her case. CHAMBERS: She has a quite large following when it comes to the conservative movement. MATTHEWS: In this show, she has a following. There`s producers that really like her. CHAMBERS: She has a very large following in the conservative movement and she gives her credibility with that group.   MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at. Here`s Sarah Palin. She wrote this Valentine online essay on Trump`s candidacy, "The folks I meet commiserate about wussified slates of politicians, but then unsolicited they whisper their appreciation for Trump because he has the guts to say it like it is". John? MCCORMACK: I mean, I think Sarah Palin learned the wrong lesson which is that anyone who`s being attacked by the media must be doing something right. I think conservatives learned that lesson with good reason. But this is one case where that`s wrong, this guy is not a conservative. MATTHEWS: You don`t think it`s a conservative. MCCORMACK: Not at all. I think he`s a show showman. And he`s --   MATTHEWS: You just called him out. I thought he was selling it pretty well there. Another time I`m confused by this roundtable. Anyway, Kasie Hunt, John McCormack and Francesca Chambers, you`re all being challenging me quite well tonight. When we return, let me finish with this -- those working men and women out there backing Donald Trump right. They`re a fascinating group. Let`s pay attention to them and what they`re saying about our country. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with something powerful about this week`s Republican debate. It`s the belief that Donald Trump is drawing his   strongest support among those Americans who didn`t get the privilege of going to college. I call it a privilege because while many didn`t make the most of their four years of higher education, the mere opportunity to pursue a university education is not something everyone gets, not by a long shot. So, let me just say this to those who did get this privilege and who think they`ve got a right to look down on those who didn`t. Well, it`s something you should put into your head and keep it there. Many years ago, I was working as a U.S. capitol police officer and spending a good deal of time with men who had served previously in the military. And one was a fellow from West Virginia named Leroy Taylor, a   real country boy. He took me under his wing. He was the working guy telling the college kid how the world worked. "You know why the little man loves this country?" he asked me one night during our evening shift. "It`s because it`s all he`s got." I tried to hold onto that fact of life that insight into the ways all these years since. And that one statement of basic fact that I think it`s more human knowledge that whole courses you take in college. When I look at the workmen and women out there now backing Donald Trump, I think back on what I learned from that country boy I worked with back in the `70s, and what he said about the little boy loving his country, because it`s all he`s got comes home to me like a rocket.   The voter out there looking to Donald Trump has come to believe that his country, the United States of America, is not being protected by the political class, that is not protecting the border, that not protecting against growing debt, not protecting our jobs. It`s giving away those things to other countries and to people who come into this country illegally. When you love your country and it`s all you`ve got, you put a very high price on it. The support this going to Donald Trump right now strikes me it`s going there because the big shot, well-educated types, the best and the brightest have let the trust of the working fellow slip through their hands. They don`t trust them and they`re showing their contempt by going   to Trump. Got it? That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END <="" p=""> Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,   copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>