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Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 06/11/15

Guests: Jesse McKinley, Jonathan Gilliam, John Feehery, Stephanie Schriock,April Ryan, Sahil Kapur

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Still trying to catch them. Let`s play HARDBALL. Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in Philadelphia. Well, a dog smells one of these guys. Does that mean they`re close? Are they in that wooded area? It`s day six of the manhunt for two killers who escaped from that maximum security prison in Dannemora, New York. And sources familiar with the investigation tell NBC News that a prison employee, Joyce Mitchell, was going to be the getaway driver for the escapees, Richard Matt and David Sweat, until she got cold feet. These sources said Mitchell helped the pair escape because Richard Matt had charmed her and she thought it was love. Well, two sources said Mitchell will be charged for her role in the prison escape, but for now, investigators are continuing to talk to her. Anyway, the massive search effort continued today and remains under way at this hour in a heavily wooded perimeter not far from the correctional facility where the fugitives escaped. Sources familiar with the investigation also told NBC News that search team are following up on a lead that was developed late last night from an AK-9 -- a K-9 unit or a bloodhound who picked up the scent of one or both of the fugitives. The search involves more than 500 law enforcement personnel right now, along with dog-sniffing and helicopter units. Schools were closed today, and residents in the surrounding communities urged to stay in their houses. NBC`s John Yang is in Morrisonville, New York. John, thank you for joining us. Why do they think they`re still pretty close to the prison? JOHN YANG, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, part of it, Chris, that people familiar with the investigation tell us that Joyce Mitchell, this prison worker, the female prison worker, told investigators that she was supposed to be the getaway driver. She was supposed to provide the ride when these two guys popped up out of the manhole cover.   But she got cold feet. She -- and her -- and what the investigators` words are to us, "chickened out" -- and checked herself into the hospital with a panic attack. So they think they didn`t get very far. They had to go on foot. Then last night, a tip about the area, which is a few miles behind me, and they get there with K-9 units, with bloodhounds. They get a sense, they get a hit on the scent of one or maybe both of them. And that`s why they`re focusing on that area. They`ve been in there doing a close grid search since sunrise. That`s several hours now, obviously, and so far, nothing -- Chris. MATTHEWS: What about this wooded area? They have a perimeter marked off now. It`s a wooded area. Boy, you hear that phrase a lot in these crime cases because they can`t see who`s in there. Does that seem to be limited to that? Are they really putting all their focus in that very limited area, in the forested area? YANG: Well, we know that`s where they are now, but we also know that the helicopters -- and both the -- you know, we`ve got state, federal Customs and Border Patrol helicopters up in the air. They`re not only sort of strafing the search area, they`re going back over other areas where they searched before. So they`re not focusing entirely on this area, but they`re still doing a general search of the surrounding areas, as well. But the ground search, the grid search, where they go, you know, sort of at arm`s length through these areas, through these fields, through these woods, that`s in a fairly focused area right now. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the public reaction. We reported a few minutes ago that people were being told to stay in their houses. Are people actually locking their doors for fear that one of these two murderers might show up at their door or window? YANG: Well, we`ve been talking to people on the phone who live this area, and they say they are. They`re staying inside the house. School was canceled. As a matter of fact, one family said they got the call, the reverse 911 call, this morning saying school was canceled. He looks out his window and he sees his house surrounded by cars and people. You know, he goes out there, talks to a guy who turns out to be from the FBI, and he says he`s been outside his house since midnight. MATTHEWS: Yes. YANG: When we asked him how he`s getting along, he says he`s doing his best, the family is doing its best not to get on each other`s nerves. But they talked about where the safest place to be was, whether they should leave, try to get to a hotel. They decided to stay put -- Chris.   MATTHEWS: What about that wisp of a news bit we had today that there was somebody who spotted one of these two guys in Philadelphia, where I am right now. Anything to that? YANG: No, Charles Ramsey, the police chief, came out, said that they have no reason to believe that that`s true. They think it`s unfounded. There are all sort things, problems with that thing that -- it was a cab driver who picked them up, took them to the 30th Street station, but then picked up two other fares and took them to their destinations before he called 911. They had problems with it, and Charles Ramsey says it`s unfounded. MATTHEWS: OK, great reporting. Thanks, NBC`s John Yang up in Dannemora, New York. NBC News caught up with Joyce Mitchell`s ex-husband, by the way. Tobey Premo and Joyce Mitchell were actually divorced years ago. But here`s what he said he would say to her now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TOBEY PREMO, JOYCE MITCHELL`S EX-HUSBAND: You have a nice son. You screwed up everything. You had a nice house and everything. It looked like you had a nice job. Looked like your life was all being taken care of, and you just screwed it all up. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, joining me right now is Jesse McKinley, a reporter with "The New York Times," and Jonathan Gilliam, who`s a former special agent with the FBI. Let me start with Jesse and this question of grooming. What have you been able to find out the pattern in which prisoners try ingratiate themselves, especially long-term prisoners, lifers, with guards so they can get special things out of them, in this case, an escape route? JESSE MCKINLEY, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, it was interesting in this case. Yesterday, Joe D`Amico (ph), who`s the top cop in the state of New York, basically said that these two guys were model prisoners to a large extent and they`ve been housed in what`s known as the honor wing of that prison. Now, that requires to you behave. It requires you to follow the rules, listen to the COs (ph) at all times. But with that comes certain perks and benefits. And in this case, it appears that Mr. Matt and Mr. Sweat took advantage of it.   MATTHEWS: Are those perks that they get -- are they, like, being able to wear regular street clothes and not a prison uniform, that kind of thing? Or what do we know they are, those perks? MCKINLEY: My understanding of it is it`s stuff like being able to watch television. It`s being able to have a little bit of extra time in the commissary to pick things out. They actually have to go through a process there, as well as -- street clothes are actually allowed in certain parts of the prison and not allowed in other parts. But in this case, these two guys were considered to be reputable prisoners, if you can say it that -- that much. But they did take advantage of it. And in talking to sources that I`ve been in touch with, they basically managed to ingratiate themselves with this woman, Joyce Mitchell, and then use that relationship in ways that we`re not entirely clear about right now, but at least to gain some sort of favor and use that to get through the prison wall. MATTHEWS: I`m hearing dogs bark. How much evidence are we getting from the dog sniffers on these two guys that have escaped? MCKINLEY: Well, the critical tip that set off today`s search came from a K-9 unit about five miles to my west here. The K-9 units have been out in force. I`ve seen several searches today that have involved K-9s in other locations, away from the prison, including one down by the Saranac River. They`re using these dogs a lot. One problem that they are running into, however, the weather`s been inclement. There have been a lot of thunderstorms moving through. That tends to make that job a little bit more difficult for the animals. MATTHEWS: Let me go to Jonathan Gilliam. Jonathan, can you tell us about -- first of all, about the way in which a prisoner, a lifer, would be able to ingratiate himself with a person of the opposite sex, maybe important here, whatever, establishing something like a romantic relationship even. Whatever it was, it seemed to have gotten what they wanted, the promise, at least, of a car -- a getaway car. JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI AGENT: So your question is how. It`s remarkable. Let`s start with that. And the fact is, I think, you know, Chris, if we -- if we just look at the color of the uniforms that these prisoners are wearing, green. And they`re surrounded by woods. So obviously, somebody in this prison system is not thinking things through. And I don`t want to slam anybody, or you know, throw anybody under the bus, but I think we can start there and really start go get an idea for the fact that it appears to me -- we start at uniforms, we looked at this relationship that was allowed to develop, the fact that these guys were able to get tools and get out of this thing -- there`s something broken inside that prison that is allowing these things to go on. MATTHEWS: Do you know much about this term called "grooming," whereby prisoners, hardened prisoners are able to develop relationships systematically with their guards? GILLIAM: Well, sure. I mean...   MATTHEWS: To their advantage. GILLIAM: You got to remember, Chris, these are -- these are two murderers, OK? So they`re predators. And predators will do what they have to do. A lot of people of this caliber are psychopaths, and they will do what they have to do in order facilitate a better life or their chances of getting out. And you know, being a model citizen, getting to wear civilian clothes, getting close to people that aren`t just prison guards, but in this case, a prison worker, which means she doesn`t have the mindset of a prison guard per se. She has a civilian mindset that just happens to be working in that facility. MATTHEWS: And let me -- let me follow now on the question of pursuit. What do we have here to catch these guys, these sort of the age-old bloodhound technique? I mean, it seems to ancient. But is this the technique we have to rely on, the dog sniffing their clothing or whatever, their personal objects connected with them, their scent, and relying on those dogs to pick up that scent perhaps miles away from the prison? GILLIAM: You would be amazed at these dogs. Some of the guys that I`ve talked to have said that they`re invaluable. That`s the word that they use. Their noses are so incredibly strong and efficient at getting scents that, you know, listen, we -- until we develop a better technology, dog sniffing -- it`s one of the best that we have. And you know, that plus teamwork. It`s funny because technology is doing less in this search than anything else. We have great teamwork amongst the FBI, the local and state law enforcement and even the Department Corrections, their SWAT type groups that are out there. And then you have these dogs. I mean, it really comes down to the grid searches, having a large grid and then a smaller grid when they get certain, you know, hits on scents or certain types of input from locals. And then also, what I`ve seen, which I have to hand it to them -- I think they`re doing a really good job -- is they`re not letting go of the of the fact that they could have traveled to Vermont or other locations. You know, there`s -- I think the Canadians are involved in this search. MATTHEWS: Yes. GILLIAM: So they`re really -- they`re really remembering that it could possibly be that they went further. MATTHEWS: Yes, I wonder if they got a break and went out and hitchhiked, even. You never know. People still hitchhike. You know, I used to do it. I don`t know if these guys could pull it off, but if they separated and hitchhiked up the Canadian border, they could have been there in a couple hours. Anyway, thank you, Jonathan Gilliam and Jesse McKinley.   Coming up -- of "The New York Times," thank you. Hillary Clinton may have found an issue to run on that fires up the left and the center. She`s making student loan reform the core of her campaign. It`s another big move perhaps to the left for Hillary Clinton. She`s working on an issue, by the way, which is important here that Elizabeth Warren has been championing and pioneering all along. Plus, Jeb Bush has struggled to take off, and he`s facing questions about a 2001 Florida law when he was governor which required unwed mothers -- catch this -- to publish their sexual history in a local newspaper when putting a child up for adoption. Doesn`t seem like a good idea. Governor Jeb Bush should have vetoed that bill, many people believed, and he did not. Also, the new movie about Brian Wilson, the Mentally ill musical genius of the Beach Boys. The film`s called "Love and Mercy." Director Bill Pohlad is with us tonight. Finally, "Let Me Finish" with this student loan issue myself. It cuts close to home for many people. And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: In a dramatic vote, the North Carolina statehouse today overrode the governor`s veto of a measure that allows state officials to refuse to perform same-sex marriages if those marriages violate their own religious beliefs. The law means magistrates and register of deeds workers in the Tarheel State can refuse to perform marriages if they have a sincerely held religious objection. The state`s governor, Republican Pat McCrory, vetoed the law last month, saying no one who takes a government oath should be allowed to avoid performing duties required by that oath. And he was overridden. And we`ll be back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)   MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. We`re getting a first look right now at the next major phase of Hillary Clinton`s presidential campaign. According to a campaign official tonight, Clinton will outline four key elements of her big speech this Saturday on Roosevelt Island in New York City. She`ll lean heavily on her mother`s experience of being abandoned as a child. Her message will be focused on family. She will say, It is your time. She`ll double down on her rollout message that the deck is stacked in favor of those at the top, by saying that wealth isn`t just for CEOs and hedge fund managers. According to a campaign official tonight, the big goal here is to frame this election as a choice between her economic policies and those of the Republican Party. Stephanie Schriock, of course, is president of Emily`s List, which has endorsed Hillary Clinton`s presidential bid. And John Feehery`s a Republican strategist. Stephanie, thanks for coming on tonight. What do you -- how do you sense this? Has Hillary found the sweet spot here of moving a bit to the more populist side of politics over there, perhaps edging over towards Bernie Sanders and the others, and Martin O`Malley, by talking about big changes in the economy? STEPHANIE SCHRIOCK, EMILY`S LIST PRESIDENT: Well, let`s remember that Hillary Clinton has spent her entire career working for women and families, starting at the Children`s Defense Fund. A lot of what you`re going to hear this weekend is her deep history as being a progressive. And yes, we`ve already seen in the first two months of the soft launch that she`s really focusing on everyday Americans and the economic policies to move the country forward. It`s a real contrast with the Republicans. MATTHEWS: Well, what do you make of her reference to hedge fund managers and CEOs? Because she has talked about the -- the income gap between CEOs and regular people, everybody people, as she calls them. But now she`s going after hedge fund managers, who as we all know, are big contributors to the Democratic Party, as well as the Republicans. Is this going to be an issue now where she`s going after people who contribute to the campaign but yet she`s drawing an ideological wedge between her and them? This -- isn`t this going to get real now? SCHRIOCK: Well, she`s made it very clear that this campaign is about everyday Americans. This is about the voters. These are about folks who are looking for economic opportunity and just a fair shot. And we`ve seen that in the policies that she`s already begun to roll out, whether it`s equal pay for equal work, immigration reform. We`re now starting to talk about debt-free college. This is a focus of where we need to go moving this country forward. And we can`t focus on fund-raising. We`ve got to focus on what`s best for the country, and that`s precisely what Hillary Clinton`s doing. MATTHEWS: So you mean she`s willing to make the choice for the voters, rather than the funders, the contributors.   SCHRIOCK: You know, she is going to have the support she needs from millions and millions of Americans, and she`s going to really focus on moving this economy forward so everyday people have a fair shot here. MATTHEWS: OK. Well, let`s take a look at John Feehery. John how do you respond to this? Because she`s not going over there into the real leftward area that Bernie Sanders is operating in, and Martin O`Malley to some extent, which is basically talking about structural change to the economy, really big-time reintroduction of wealth. She`s talking there about trying help the people in the middle, or the lower level of economic life in this country, catch up a bit. She`s not saying, I`m going to cut and screw the carried interest benefits of the hedge fund operators and the CEOs. She`s not going that far. She`s talking about how not just those people should be doing well. Its a little bit of a hedge. JOHN FEEHERY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: A little bit. Listen, I think that Hillary Clinton`s going to have some of the -- the same messages that Republicans are going to have, which is they`re going to be fighting for the middle class, just like Hillary Clinton, because that`s where the votes are. And I think that for someone like Hillary Clinton -- you know, she`s got to play this game because, you know, one of the biggest funders of the Democratic Party is George Soros. And guess what? He`s a hedge fund manager. There`s plenty of hedge fund managers who fund the Democratic Party. So I think that for her, she`s got to make sure she doesn`t be seen as a hypocrite by, you know, attacking the same people that are -- or biting the hand that feeds her in many ways. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Are you guys going to do something about that on the Republican side? Are you going to go after the tax advantages that the people at the top, the hedge fund manages, get? They get to count what most people consider regular income as capital gains. It`s called carried interest. Are you going go after that on your side, if she doesn`t? FEEHERY: I doubt it. I think what Republicans... MATTHEWS: See, well, then...   (CROSSTALK) FEEHERY: I think what Republicans will do is talk about how the free market outside of -- without too much government interference, can lift the boats- MATTHEWS: OK... FEEHERY: ... kind of like a John F. Kennedy message. I know how much you like John F. Kennedy. MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you this now that you`re giving me some talk here. Let me ask you this. What is the free market doing for students and parents trying to afford higher education today? Apparently, it`s leaving them socked with six-figure loans coming out of college and grad school, over $100,000, $150,000 debts people are carrying. What is your party going to do about that? FEEHERY: Well, that`s a good question. I was talking to a colleague of mine who has over $200,000 worth of student loans. And that`s just too much. And I think that Republicans do have to come up with a message on this, because a lot of families are facing the same thing. College is too expensive. And the value proposition just is not there for a lot of folks. So, we do have to come up with a solution to this. I don`t think that having the government, which currently controls all the student loans, is the best place to get more student loans, to be honest with you. MATTHEWS: Well, try to get a market rate one. Anyway, this is the big news today on Clinton`s plan. She has got a plan coming up this week apparently pretty soon to overhaul student loan debt. And if you`re one of the 40 million Americans saddled with what is now over a trillion dollars all together in student loan debt, this could be a grabber politically obviously.   Politico reports today that this plan could be Clinton`s signature domestic policy issue, with a big announcement coming in July. The details haven`t been finalized. But the emerging Clinton plan may include covering tuition itself, pending loan rates to income levels, in other words, a lower rate for people at the bottom. It could include refi-ing, refinancing your rates, by getting a lower rate because the current market rates are lower right now than the ones you got when you did it. Also, it`s talking about Hillary Clinton may be talking about punishing the schools that default on -- their students default on loans. Anyway, according to Politico, Clinton`s campaign has sought out policy experts with close ties to Senate Elizabeth Warren. What do you make of that, Stephanie, that Hillary Clinton is looking at the same experts that have been serving the policy interests and developments of Senator Warren? What do you make of that? SCHRIOCK: Well, I think Hillary is very wise to be talking to as many good smart policy people and economists as we can. This issue of college student debt is immense. It is weighing down an entire generation and really becoming generations of Americans. And with the goal, with Hillary`s goal of debt-free college, there, I think we`re going to see some policies that get us to that goal. It is something we absolutely have to do. And John just talked about the Republicans needing a message. And I couldn`t agree more. But we haven`t seen any rollout of any policies that are dealing with economic opportunity. And when there are such issues like college debt that we have to deal with, I really see Hillary`s leadership and the Democrats` leadership on these issues moving forward. MATTHEWS: OK. Well, we have a big basketball game tonight in Cleveland. So, I`m going to ask to you -- throw a jump ball out there right now. You first, John, and then Stephanie. Give me one idea for reducing the debt load for students coming out of college. One idea. FEEHERY: Well, I kind of like the idea of, if you work for the government or work for a nonprofit or work in service to the country, you should like expand the G.I. Bill. You should get some help with your debts. I think that that actually is good for taxpayers and good for students.   MATTHEWS: OK, public service benefit there. What do you think, Stephanie? Any thoughts? SCHRIOCK: Well, we have to get around -- able to refinance the debts that so many people have now. We have got an entire generation of graduates who can`t even think about buying a home because they have so much debt. We have to get our arms around that too. MATTHEWS: I know. OK. If we get it -- they`re talking now, by the way, Stephanie and John -- there is talk about getting it down. If you can refi, like you can take with a house today, you can take it from 6.7 or 7 down to 3, which I figured out the math on that. If you owe about $100,000, it would be cutting it down from $500 a month you got to pay to $250 a month. That`s a lot of difference for a person trying to make up a family, a young family. SCHRIOCK: Well, and what that would do to the economy -- what that would do for the economy, that much more money to be able to -- us to spend, to think about expanding into growing a family, to buying a house, so just spending. It would completely change our economic situation. FEEHERY: But the problem is, is that the government right now controls all of the student loans. And so this is a problem with the government. It is not a problem for the private sector. So, this is an issue and it has got to be fixed. But more government doesn`t necessarily help that. MATTHEWS: I know. I know. The reason is government is in it, by the way, is the private sector can`t handle it. You know that. So, don`t be knocking government. They`re not great, but there was not anything else there helping before they came along, by the way. Anyway, I`m going to talk about this at the end of the show. Stephanie Schriock, thank you so much for coming on.   My friend John Feehery, thanks for coming on. And up next, the hot new movie about the Beach Boy Brian Wilson. It is called "Love & Mercy." And director Bill Pohlad joins us now. If you think "The Jersey Boys"` backstory was about crime and corruption and the mob, this one is about a genius who also had serious lifetime mental illness, Brian Wilson. What a genius. And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. The movie is called "Love & Mercy." It tells the story of the tortured genius of legendary Beach Boys front man Brian Wilson. He is the creative force behind some of the most iconic music we know of the 20th century, including, catch these hits, "California Girls," "God Only Knows," "Good Vibrations," "Wouldn`t It Be Nice." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LOVE & MERCY") UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Brian? PAUL DANO, ACTOR: Yes? UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: I think you might have screwed up here.   DANO: Really? Let me see. UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Well, you have got Lyle playing in D and then the rest of us are in A major. DANO: Yes, that`s right. UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: How does that work? Two baselines in two different keys? DANO: Well, it works in my head. It`s in my head, the orchestration. I think it is going to work. Let`s try it. Here`s how I want you do it. So it`s the first beat on the last bar of the intro. Two, three, four. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Isn`t creation something to watch? That`s Paul Dano playing Wilson at the height of the Beach Boys` creativity. But the film also tells story of Wilson later in life, when he is isolated, struggling with mental illness and effectively the prisoner of his own psychologist, who controls every aspect of his life. John Cusack plays Wilson in that period. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LOVE & MERCY")   PAUL GIAMATTI, ACTOR: Do you know who this man is? Brian Wilson. Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys. ELIZABETH BANKS, ACTRESS: Oh. You didn`t mention that. JOHN CUSACK, ACTOR: Well, but that stuff doesn`t matter. That`s ego stuff, you know? BANKS: Are you kidding me? I love your music. I grew up on it. Thank you. CUSACK: That makes me feel really good, Melinda Ledbetter. (LAUGHTER) GIAMATTI: OK. Right? It`s a nice night. Why don`t you get started on the paperwork? OK? (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by the film`s director and producer, Bill Pohlad. Bill, thank you so much for that.   I had never seen in a long time a bad guy in a movie ad bad as Paul Giamatti. Was that really that bad, that this psychologist, this shrink was able to physically capture and control a genius like Brian Wilson every moment of his life? BILL POHLAD, DIRECTOR, "LOVE & MERCY": Yes, it really is accurate. We talked to Brian. Brian was involved in the film throughout the process, so we could easily check to see whether we were kind of going off the rails or kind of exaggerating. I mean, actually, Brian has said a couple times that it was actually worse than the way we portrayed it. So, he was a pretty divisive guy, Dr. Landy. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you how -- what you learned about creativity. I`m always stunned in movies when they try to capture what it`s like, whether it`s Richard Rogers or it`s Brian Wilson, the creative process, where somebody gets in their head, whether they dream it or whatever, a melody. And then they develop it and they orchestrate it and they arrange it. What is that like? And how does that genius work? Because it is entirely creative. POHLAD: Yes. I mean, that was part of what we wanted to explore in the film. I mean, obviously, Brian, as you said, had kind of come up with the most iconic music of our generation, for sure. And how he does it is a bit of a mystery. Certainly, he has suffered from and continues to suffer from a form of schizophrenia -- it is called schizoaffective disorder, a form of schizophrenia. MATTHEWS: Wow. POHLAD: But -- and so he hears things in his head. He hears very complex orchestrations, melodies and harmonies that are so complex that most people can`t really understand them until they`re executed. But he also -- there is a dark side. Basically, he can`t turn them off either. So, it is part of his genius and part of I guess the madness as well. MATTHEWS: Well, these songs are in our heads all the time, our whole life growing up. Every summer in Ocean City, New Jersey, we would have a new Beach Boys song on the boardwalk and then we would have a Four Seasons songs to go with it, against it, competing with it. And they are the songs of my youth anyway.   Here`s another scene from the movie. Wilson creates a melody out of nowhere for his girlfriend. Let`s watch him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LOVE & MERCY") BANKS: That was so beautiful. CUSACK: Thanks. BANKS: What is it? CUSACK: Oh, that`s just something that I came up -- when I saw you. BANKS: What are you going to do with it? CUSACK: Nothing. It`s gone. That was just for you. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: How did you decide to do these two -- it isn`t a biopic. It`s not the guy`s whole life. You took periods of his life when he was zooming with creativity and seemingly functional. And then you show him where is not functional, where he`s so much a prisoner of this bad shrink played by Paul Giamatti. You really feel like he is completely lost. POHLAD: Yes.   No, I mean, again, for me, sometimes, a biopic, where you`re forced to hit all the beats of a character`s life, sometimes it doesn`t allow you to get really intimate with the person. I really thought it would be more interesting to get into Brian`s head and really feel what he feels. So, we -- as you mentioned, we took these two different eras in his life and intertwined them, hoping that by whatever -- that kind of harmony, if you will, it will paint the portrait of Brian a little more deeply, the good side and the bad side of everything that he dealt with. MATTHEWS: Well, I saw the movie this weekend in Washington at the Avalon. I`ll tell you, I really liked it. Here`s another clip from the film that shows just how controlled Wilson`s life became because of that shrink played in the movie by the great Paul Giamatti. Wilson here is going on a date with a some he met at a Cadillac dealership. She was selling cars. She is played beautifully by Elizabeth Banks. Let`s watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LOVE & MERCY") BANKS: Hi. CUSACK: How are you? BANKS: I`m great. CUSACK: You look really great. BANKS: Thank you. CUSACK: You want to go?   BANKS: Oh, did you -- yes. CUSACK: I forgot your apartment number. BANKS: Ah. (INAUDIBLE) CUSACK: Yes. BANKS: Ah. Why does it feel like the prom all of a sudden? CUSACK: I`m not sure. BANKS: Thank you. GIAMATTI: Hey, Melinda. BANKS: Hi. GIAMATTI: You look great. BANKS: Hi.   (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Did you make Cusack look shorter in that movie? He`s a very tall guy? I have met him. And I just wondered is that really -- was there some camera trick there to make him look like more of an average size guy? POHLAD: No, no, that was actually true. I mean, Elizabeth is not short in any way. I think they matched up pretty well. No, we didn`t have to do anything like that. (CROSSTALK) MATTHEWS: Because usually you make the movie stars look taller. Anyway, I thought you made him look shorter. POHLAD: Yes. MATTHEWS: Anyway, in the movie, he`s great. I have always been a Cusack fan, especially since seeing "High Fidelity" years ago. Anyway, the movie is called "Love & Mercy." It`s about the greatest group, one of the greatest groups ever, the Beach Boys. Thank you, Bill Pohlad, for joining us tonight. Up next: Jeb Bush faces questioning about a Florida law that made women write publicly, catch this, of their sexual history . Isn`t that nice. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.   (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Milissa Rehberger with breaking news. A Cleveland judge says there`s probable cause to charge police officers in the fatal November shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. Rice was playing with a pellet gun outside a recreation center when he was shot. The judge issued the ruling after activists asked him to order the arrest of those officers. However, the opinion is largely advisory. The investigation into Rice`s death remains in the hands of prosecutors, who will task a grand jury with deciding whether the officers will face charges. Rice`s family has filed a wrongful death suit against the officers in that case -- back to HARDBALL. MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. An excerpt from Jeb Bush`s 1995 book "Profiles in Character" is getting renewed attention today. First dug up by Laura Bassett of The Huffington Post this week, Bush decries the loss of shame in the book in unwed motherhood. And this is a chapter entitled "The Restoration of Shame." Here`s Jeb Bush -- quote -- "One of the reasons more young women are giving birth out of wedlock and more young men are walking away from their paternal obligations is that there is no longer a stigma attached to this behavior, no reason to feel shame. There was a time when neighbors and communities would frown on out-of-wedlock births when public condemnation was enough of a stimulus for one to be careful. And famous -- infamous shotgun weddings and Nathaniel Hawthorne`s `Scarlet Letter` are reminders that public condemnation of irresponsible sexual behavior has strong historical roots." Well, that excerpt about public shaming has been associated by critics with a 2001 bill down in Florida altering the adoption regulations in that state which then Governor Jeb Bush did not veto, allowing to it become law, if provided that if a mother wanted to put her child up for adoption but could not confirm the identity of the father, she could be compelled by the law, by the state, to publish the private details of her sexual history in a public notice, in a local newspaper. Governor Bush modified the law two years later, but only after a state court found it unconstitutional. Here`s how "The New York Times" summarized the law back in 2003. "It required women to run  ments, disclosing their names, ages, height, hair and eye color, race and weight as well as the child`s name and birth place and a description of the possible father. It also required the women to provide details of the dates and places of sexual encountered that might have produced the child. Women were required to run the  ments once a week for a month in the community where the child may have been conceived." I`m joined right now by Sam Stein of "The Huffington Post, April Ryan with the National Urban Radio Networks, and Sahil Kapur with "The Bloomberg Politics". I want you all to give me your take on this. Why it`s important, do you think, what we know about Jeb Bush? I want Sam to start.   SAM STEIN, THE HUFFINGTON POST: Well, I mean, we`re talking about two things, right? The first is the book, which is talking about women having sexual partners out of wedlock and the whole concept of shaming as a public policy. And the second is the law, which deals more with adoptive services. But there`s one common thread that makes them all important, which is this notion that you could use shame as a tool of public policy, which I think -- you know, if you look back at today seems incredibly antiquated and a little over the line. He was in trouble with conservatives for not vetoing the legislation. I imagine that it would be even more difficult to defend in this day and age when people really do care about privacy rights, about individual responsibility and individual choice. So, in that sense, I do think it matters for his candidacy. SAHIL KAPUR, BLOOMBERG POLITICS: And, Chris, I would just add that in the wake of, you know, when we look at this now it seems very antiquated. It`s hardly -- the `90s was hardly the "Mad Men" era but it didn`t seem too out of place at the time given that we were kind of a moral majority era, you know, where social conservatism was still on the rise. APRIL RYAN, NATIONAL URBAN RADIO NETWORKS: But, you know, Chris, I`m trying to drill down a little bit on this because as a woman, this just screams at me in so many different ways and so many different levels because it`s just wrong. Not just privacy. But to shame a woman -- I mean, whose business is it how many partner partners you had? Whether you had one, none, or 20, or even more? But the issue, I talked with the Florida State Senate Democratic leader, Arthenia Joyner, who told me, who gave me some really good information. She said during that time she was there and she voted no for the bill. But also, she said -- and this is something really interesting -- that Debby Wasserman Schultz was a Florida senator at the time. And she was the only Democrat to vote no. You heard many of the leaders in Florida say they wanted to push this. To get this adoption bill pushed through so fast that they really didn`t read all the information about the bill, to include the fact that you had, what is it, minority children who could have been outed in this. You had, excuse me, not minority -- underage children. And then you had people who were raped, who had to give their information. So, this bill screams in a lot of ways and it`s just wrong, privacy and otherwise. It`s just bad. MATTHEWS: So, you all believe, starting with April, you all believe that there was an intention by the state legislature with Bush going along with it to shame women. It wasn`t to find the father`s identity. You believe the purpose of the bill was to hurt women`s reputation by forcing them to put out their sexual history. You believe that was the purpose of the bill. RYAN: Well, Chris, Arthenia Joyner -- MATTHEWS: April, do you think that? RYAN: Going back to Arthenia Joyner, what she told me today, she said that Jeb Bush passed this bill. He signed it into law, knowing that he wasn`t going to veto it as long as they could change it down the road. Now, this is what she told me, and she remembers back --   MATTHEWS: But he didn`t sign it. RYAN: He didn`t veto -- he signed it but he didn`t veto it. MATTHEWS: He didn`t sign it. (CROSSTALK) STEIN: He did not sign it. To answer your question, I think there are two purposes. One was to discourage mothers at the point of decision from offering up their children for adoptive services. The idea was to have kids, stay with the paternal parents, don`t put them up for adoption, try to create that traditional family. The second was essentially to -- if you were going to put them up for adoption -- give the father a notice that the child was being put up for adoption. But I think you could have good intentions but bad means of getting there. I think what happened here was they rushed through the bill as April noted. It passed with very, very large majority in both chambers of the Florida state and House -- Senate and House. But also, it kind of screwed with the adoption process in the state, as one anecdote said. There was a woman who wanted to give up her child to the paternal father. But to do so, she actually had to publish all her sexual encounters in the past however many year history. So, it didn`t actually facilitate easy adoptions. It actually complicated it. KAPUR: I should add, Chris, that I think part of the reason this is going to be a problem for Jeb Bush, including in the primary, certainly, the general election if he`s up on stage with Hillary Clinton, is that if you`re a Republican woman, you`re coming from a party that says abortion is wrong and illegal. But for someone who has a child, for a woman who has the child and who does the responsible thing putting it up for adoption, when you can`t take care of it, the law says you`re going to be humiliated and shamed for it. So, I think that`s going to involve (ph) a lot of women -- MATTHEWS: Sahil, I`m so with you. I grew up Catholic. I am a Catholic. I have to tell you, adoption is one of the most beautiful things in the world. It`s where a person who can`t provide for a child offers that child to someone who can. It`s a wonderful thing. Why anyone would want to make that onerous or embarrassing or shameful, I don`t get it.   Anyway, here`s Jeb Bush had to say about that `95 book excerpt about shaming of unwed mothers. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: As it relates to the book, the book was written in 1995. My views have evolved over time. But my views about the importance of dads being involved in the lives of children hasn`t changed at all. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: I`m not sure how his views have evolved about shaming. But here`s a report said, he remembered about the 2001 which was six years after that article he wrote in that book. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: I don`t remember what the purpose, what the repeal was. I can remember what the purpose of the law was to enhance the ability to collect child support because men have the responsibility of taking care of their children. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, any way, the roundtable is staying with us. And up next, a little less serious. Is that a pack of cigarettes in President Obama`s hands there? Take a keen look and we`ll talk about it. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics. And cigarettes apparently.   (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: Well, the mounting criticism about which presidential candidates would be excluded from the first Republican debate has triggered a slight change of plans. Rather than leaving as many as eight candidates out in the cold, FOX News which is airing the August 6 debate now says it will hold a forum earlier on the same day for the candidates who failed to qualify for the evening debate. And yesterday, before that, a group of influential Republicans from New Hampshire had sent a letter to FOX and RNC chairman Reince Priebus urging participation of the full field of candidates, and not just the top 10 candidates, according to the poll. Well, I guess it worked. And we`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: We`re back. Well, President Obama was in Germany at the G7 summit earlier this week and a picture on social media sparked suspicions by some that perhaps the president is lighting up again. April Ryan pressed White House spokesman Josh Earnest for details. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RYAN: Does he have a pack of cigarettes in his hand? JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He does not.   RYAN: What was it? EARNEST: I don`t know, April. I wasn`t there. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Well, Josh Earnest said he hadn`t asked the president about the story, but an insistent reporter, that`s April Ryan, continued the questioning. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RYAN: Well, the president, as you acknowledged, reads media reports and everywhere, this picture with him holding -- EARNEST: I`m not sure that`s the way I`d describe it. RYAN: It is everywhere. Check it out. (END VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEWS: Joining me right now at the roundtable, rejoining is that insistent reporter, April Ryan, along with Sam Stein and Sahil Kapur. April, first of all, if you had to bet 100 bucks one way or the other if this thing gets resolved at some point, would you bet he had a pack of cigarettes in his hand or he didn`t? What would your bet be?   RYAN: That`s $100 I can keep in my pocket no matter what, I`m not going to bet. But -- (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: If you were asked the question, you must have thought it was cigarettes. RYAN: I made my mind. That`s asking the question, it has nothing to do with the bet. Anything and everything that the president does is presidential. It wasn`t meant to be anything hard or soft. It was just, we saw a picture and I wanted an answer. The president had said something about he tried when he came into the White House, he was trying the kick the habit of cigarettes. So we see something in a picture, and the box looks about the size, and the fingers are going like, you know -- so I didn`t know, and I asked the question. I asked if he`s -- MATTHEWS: OK. I want to -- I want to be fair and square here. I`ll put the $100 for any of you that want to bet it was cigarettes. You, Sam, first. If we get this resolved, will you put $100 that it was cigarettes? STEIN: So you think it was not cigarettes? So, I can put $100 -- MATTHEWS: I`m just asking you, will you make the bet? We`re talking about this crap. I want to know if you think it`s true one way or the other. If we don`t know what we`re talking about, we shouldn`t be talking about it. Your thoughts? (LAUGHTER) STEIN: It`s your show. You set the agenda here. MATTHEWS: Take your bet? STEIN: I happen to think it was cigarettes but I have no proof.   MATTHEWS: OK, 100 bucks, want to do it? STEIN: No. (LAUGHTER) MATTHEWS: Why not, you don`t even -- your words and thought process is not worth 100 bucks? STEIN: No, it`s definitely not. Not even close. MATTHEWS: I`m going to close the betting window in about three seconds. STEIN: Is it the better question, would you give him the benefit of the doubt to have a cigarette? He has the most stressful job in the world. RYAN: Exactly, exactly. MATTHEWS: No, I just want to get our facts first then we get to our commentary. Let me go to Sahil, do you have thought about whether he was carrying cigarettes or not? KAPUR: Firstly, Chris, I wouldn`t take that bet. Whatever he was holding, he was holding like it could be cigarettes. There`s that element.   RYAN: That`s right. STEIN: We`re just playing it straight. RYAN: That`s right. KAPUR: I wouldn`t judge him. I don`t think it`s an impeachable offense. RYAN: I`ve got to go back to the White House. MATTHEWS: So nobody has any guts to say he was smoking. Why do you think -- why do you think this is important? I give you April last shot at it, because you did have the guts to ask the question. Why do you think it`s important enough to ask the question of the president`s spokesperson? RYAN: Because one, he is the president of the United States. Some people say health reasons, you know, you shouldn`t be smoking. But you have a president who says he was trying to quit. We see him chewing the Nicorette gum, I mean, showing so hard that people make comments about it, because he`s really trying to kick the habit. But at the same time, if he is smoking, and I will say this, I wouldn`t blame him. He literally has the world on his shoulders. He is great. I mean, when he first came into office, he looked like a teenager. Now he`s aging gracefully. His hair is white. There is pressure and there is tension in that job. I mean, I would not blame him if he did taste a cigarette or two, and I don`t smoke. So -- KAPUR: And nor does it impact his ability to do the job, I think, it`s also worth mentioning.   MATTHEWS: OK. KAPUR: It`s a fair question. RYAN: Exactly. MATTHEWS: The willingness to make $100 bet isn`t necessary for your guys` jobs either. STEIN: No. MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you, Sam Stein. Thank you, April Ryan. Thank you, Sahil Kapur. When we return, let me finish this student loan issue, which is a good one. You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: I`m here in Philadelphia tonight to give the commencement address at Peirce College, so let me finish tonight with the student loan issue. This one has the authenticity of real-life people, everyday people as Hillary Clinton calls them. Like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, a solid cause if there ever was one, it has the quality of real life experience. Parents who see their children headed off into the world packed down with oftentimes six figures of student loan debt, which shouldn`t have to be this way.   And the trick here is to find a way to reduce that debt. I left college owing $2,800. That`s $2,800, not thousand dollars. One hope might be to cut the interest rates. That would be good. I paid 3 percent. Young adults are paying twice that amount on principals, of course, as I said, over hundred thousands dollars. What we need to find I think is a way to deal not just with the interest rate, by refinancing, by refis, but the principal. How do we free young couples from the prospect of having this big debt still lingering when they approach their 40s or even 50s. That`s the reality for people today. Senator Marco Rubio reported that he only recently paid off his student loans and he`s running for president. Bottom line: it`s a real problem, a genuine issue, something we should put our heads together over, not whether the president grabbed a smoke over in Germany. Don`t you think? That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>