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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 6/27/22

Guests: Katie Hill, Corbin Trent, Betsy Woodruff Swan, Tim Miller, Colleen McNicholas


As a result of Friday`s Supreme Court ruling from the court`s Trump`s elected right-wing majority, abortion is now completely banned in seven states and bans are forthcoming in around a dozen more. Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez along with others in her party, Senator Elizabeth Warren among a bunch of others have been on the front lines of the Democratic responses. The Committee made a surprise announcement that their next hearing will actually be tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. Eastern to "present recently obtained evidence and receive witness testimony." The Giulianis, dad and son were out campaigning at a ShopRite grocery store in Staten Island and told that Rudy Giuliani was viciously attacked by a grocery store worker.


JOY REID, MSNBC ANCHOR: And that is tonight`s "REIDOUT". Be sure to join us tomorrow night on the Reid -- on the REIDOUT for the latest on the surprise January 6 hearing that was just announced today, followed at 8 p.m. Eastern by our January 6 recap show. ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES starts next.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR (voiceover): Tonight on ALL IN. As abortion services and in states across America, what do the Americans who represent a large majority do about institutions that continue to fill them?

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D-NY): This is not just a crisis of Roe. This is a crisis in our democracy. This is a crisis of legitimacy and President Biden must address that.

HAYES: Then, a secret witness and a surprise hearing. What we know about tomorrow`s previously unscheduled hearing to present newly obtained evidence? And in the criminal investigation, what we know about the Justice Department`s seizure of John Eastman`s phone. Plus, this Senator pretending to be on the phone is now changing his story.

SEN. RON JOHNSON, (R-WI): I`m on the phone right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not. I can see your phone. I can see your screen.

HAYES: And new revelations in the alleged assault of Rudy Giuliani from grocery store surveillance video.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER UNITED STATES ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL: All of a sudden, I feel a shot on my back like somebody shot me.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. As a result of Friday`s Supreme Court ruling from the court`s Trump`s elected right- wing majority, abortion is now completely banned in seven states and bans are forthcoming in around a dozen more. We`re already hearing just heart- wrenching stories of clinics being shut down, pregnant women unable to access abortions. It`s the most significant step back in terms of individual rights in recent memory.

And we should be clear about one thing. The U.S. is, for better or for worse, a two-party system, and the responsibility for the end of abortion rights in this country lies entirely with one of those parts. The reason this came about is that the Republican Party has committed itself full force for the past half-century to overturning much of the broad civil rights revolution of progress for the last 60 years, but specifically overturning Roe as their number one target.

Republican presidential appointees have basically controlled the Supreme Court since the Nixon administration with the help, of course, of the Electoral College, which helps them win elections while losing the popular vote. But for decades, they were unable to attain their goal of actually overturning Roe. It`s not until 1992 when the court weakened but didn`t overturn the right to an abortion and Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Republican Party in the conservative movement, evangelicals became fully radicalized in the goal. That was the justification for the religious rights deal with Donald Trump. Trump was very obviously not a religious man. He had previously been quite outspoken about being publicly pro-choice and not to mention the many, many allegations of sexual misconduct against him. Just wasn`t an attempt to cite scripture at the religious University liberty with the now infamous two Corinthians gaffe.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Right here, this is a major theme right here but two Corinthians, right? Two Corinthians 3:17, that`s the whole ballgame. Where the Spirit of the Lord, right? Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty and here there is Liberty College but -- Liberty University but it is so true. You know, when you think -- and that`s really -- is that the one -- is that the one you like? I think that`s the one you like because I loved it.


HAYES: Is that the one you like? It`s Second Corinthians two, but none of that mattered, obviously. Evangelicals, Conservative Catholics, and establishment Republicans like Mitch McConnell, they all supported Trump. They all lockstep together and stole Merrick Garland`s seat on the Supreme Court. They all closed ranks behind Brett Kavanaugh after he was accused quite publicly and memorably of sexual assault. And then they forced through Amy Coney Barrett`s nomination just days before a presidential election. And all of that was precisely to get us to this moment.

The twice impeach Donald Trump who lost the popular vote both times he ran, appointed three Supreme Court justices. He single-handedly shifted the court far enough to the right, it could finally undo abortion rights in this country. So the Republican Party is why we are here. The new Trump court made its intentions known over the past year. And if you need another sign this was happening, I mean, a draft of the actual decision itself leaked for the first time in modern history. So no one can say they didn`t know this was coming.

Now, the question is for the other party, the Democrats, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do next? Democratic Party leadership shouldn`t sugarcoat it, pretend there`s a magic wand they can wave to reverse this terrible decision, there isn`t.


But they do need to articulate a plan to fight back. And right now I got to say that is shockingly absent. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi`s first reaction was not a detailed plan to respond to something we knew was coming, it was to read a poem, among other things. House Majority Whip, Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina called somewhat infamously, the decision "anticlimactic." Even President Joe Biden`s response which was, you know, a nationally televised address ultimately amounted to go vote, which massively undersells the immediate urgency of the current state of affairs.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be very clear and unambiguous. The only way we can secure a woman`s right to choose the balance that existed is for Congress to restore the protections of Roe v. Wade as federal law. No executive action from the president can do that. And of Congress, as it appears, lacks to vote -- to vote to do that now. Voters need to make their voices heard. This fall, we must elect more senators and representatives who will codify woman`s right to choose in the federal law once again.


HAYES: Now, again, that`s a clear concrete path forward, right. Federal Legislation codified Roe and the president is correct, Democrats don`t currently have the votes to override a filibuster and codify abortion protections in law and they are lacking two votes to get a filibuster to carve out, right? So again, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, James Clyburn, all these people, they are correct, electing more Democrats is absolutely necessary, but not sufficient to accomplish that goal.

But again, just telling people to vote as the sole guidance when your party already controls both chambers of Congress and the White House, it`s just can`t be enough. It`s not enough. Especially because, let`s be honest here and I don`t want to get too dark but it is what it is, there`s no reason to believe this Supreme Court would let a legislative version of Roe stamp.

I think a big part of the problem. There`s a disconnect right now between I think leadership and the most sort of mobilized Dem -- members of the progressive Democratic Party. The older generations of politicians who right now our Democratic Party leadership have lived through the most impactful expansion of rights in modern American history. I mean, the expansion of social safety nets, Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, and then the series of landmark Supreme Court cases you know, beginning with Brown v. Board but really the Warren Court that expanded contraceptive rights, abortion rights, civil rights, gay rights.

So it`s not crazy that it feels like Democratic leaders kind of take these victories as the cornerstone of their civic faith. But deep in their bones, they feel that over time, things improve even when it`s hard, even when things look bleak. That everything will eventually sort of work out if you trust the institutions, you trust the court. But the thing is, and I`m over-generalizing here, I think younger people on the left and center-left see a much more acute threat.

A threat posed by this reactionary movement, this rogue Supreme Court, the very foundation of American democracy because there is no coasting in this moment. No trust the process, no faith in our institutions to save us, our institutions keep producing terrifyingly bad outcomes. It`s not just the January divide but there`s a big generational divide. It`s a generational divide that Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez articulated yesterday.


OCASIO-CORTEZ: I think that it does speak to a generational change within the Democratic Party. And I believe that there are -- you know, there is an establishment within the Democratic Party that has a nostalgia for a better time of politics from decades ago. You hear this very often when you hear certain Democrats say that they wished for a strong Republican Party. But the fact of the matter is, is that we have a new and very different Republican Party that more people are recognizing.

But frankly, the roots of which have already been there, which is a lack of respect for the instance of American institutions, a lack of respect for the law, and a deep desire to debase very, very critical underpinnings of our democracy. And so I do believe that there has been a weak democratic strategy in the past and we cannot continue to use those same playbooks.


HAYES: Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez along with others in her party, Senator Elizabeth Warren, who we have in the program last week, among a bunch of others, right, has been on the front lines of the democratic responses decision channeling the outrage, demanding that this time, the response must be different.


AOC, for her part, offered a number of practical solutions or concrete actions in the short-term on Twitter, including expanding the number of seats in the Supreme Court, yes, but also increasing access to at-home abortion pills or attempting to repeal the Hyde Amendment, which prohibits federal funds for paying for abortions, expanding abortion clinics on a native and federal land which people talking about. But again, the -- you can argue about the specific some of those, there`s not the votes for it, some of them might be bad on the policy merits. But the most important thing is to propose things, right? I mean, this is what Cortez -- Ocasio- Cortez says, Democrats need to try.

And again, if there`s one hope for the Democratic Party -- and the Democratic Party doesn`t matter as much as just the broad center-left or majority of the country, right? The one small silver lining in the aftermath is an unbelievable catastrophe. It is a catastrophe. Is that the country is behind them.

There are more of them than there are in the opposition. A majority of Americans, nearly 60 percent oppose overturning Roe. Go up to Americans and ask them do they think a raped 14-year-old should be forced to carry her rapist`s child to a term which is the law of the land and we`ll be in more and more states? And they will tell you, no, by large majorities. Democrats need to harness that. They need to make sure the party that is brought that state appears to be -- and this is not an abstraction to be clear here. There are 14-year-olds around this country right now who will be encountering that. They exist. It`s not a thought experiment.

Democrats need to make the party that brought the state of affairs about, to own it, to not live it down. You have the majority. You have public opinion on your side. You have the wind on your back. And you better use it to make them pay for this. For supporting this hideous decision every chance you get.

Katie Hill serves as a Democratic Congresswoman from California. She`s the founder of Her Time Political Action Committee, which mobilizes women to run for elected office, and Corbin Trent, former spokesperson for Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the founder of the progressive democratic No Excuses Pac. They both join me now.

Katie, let me start with you. I haven`t talked to you in a while. I think you`ve had a child since I saw you so congratulations on that that`s awesome.


HAYES: You know, the seat that you were in was not -- you know, it wasn`t like some seat that was like plus 40 Democratic, right, it was a -- it was a swing seat. So you`re very attuned to the -- you know, the politics of the Middle, basically the politics of swing voters and this does seem to me like if there`s anything here for Democrats, they do have the majority on their side. Do you feel confident about that in the -- in the kind of district that you represented that that`s the case?

HILL: Yes. Here`s the deal. We need to be talking to women because fundamentally, women get this, right? We get whether you have a friend that you`ve had to take to help get an abortion or if you have known somebody or have had a pregnancy loss of a wanted baby, and you know, that tragedy, this decision could mean and does mean for people that they could die because they can`t just have something with a baby that they wanted in the first place.


HILL: Like, people really need to understand that this has -- this has huge amplifications for your ability to choose when you have kids. It`s the majority of people who get abortions are infected mothers themselves. So we need to be just having this conversation of saying like, do you really get what is going on here? And then our leaders -- I`m mortified, frankly, that our leaders have not stepped up in a bigger way to say this is a fire. This is the first step, as you mentioned, the first step backward in rights that we`ve had since my grandmother`s generation.

I mean, we`re -- this is a catastrophe. This truly is. And it`s hard to prepare for when the wildfire actually strikes and you actually have to evacuate your house.


HILL: But we`re here now. We`re here, and we need to have concrete plans and we do. We know what they are. So that`s what my organization`s working on. We`re working on immediate plans, immediate actions for people can take today what we need to do for short-term political answers, executive actions, and then what we need to do in the long term because the answer is not, wait until November and vote.

HAYES: Yes. And I think, Corbin, to Katie`s point, I mean I think it`s a good metaphor that like understanding this as like, the wildfire has reached the house and that`s what it feels like, where I think that`s in some ways, just in tone a little bit of the disconnect, right, that a bunch of people I think hundreds of thousands if not millions of people feel like that`s what we`re living through. And it doesn`t feel like that like even as a starting point before you get to you should do this or you know let`s elect two more senators who override the filibuster and John Fetterman says we`ll do that in Pennsylvania. You know like what you can do that just sounding the note of alarm that is coincident with the level of crisis.


CORBIN TRENT, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: I think there`s been so few instances, at least in my lifetime, where I`ve seen the Democratic party`s leadership respond to things in such a poor way. But I mean, you know, you can`t really lead, I don`t think unless you`ve got a direction to hit.

HAYES: Right.

TRENT: And it didn`t seem like even though as you mentioned in the opening that they had advanced warning of this, that they knew this was coming, and not -- for nothing, it`s been something that the Republican Party`s been working on hard for 50 plus years. You know, there still was not OK, now we`re ready to go. You know, we saw the singing on the steps. We saw the poem. I mean, it was -- it was really disappointing and quite scary, right, that we`ve not got the capacity to bring together a trifecta in any meaningful way to protect people in this country. And, you know, it`s like the representative, Ocasio-Cortez mentioned, this is a generational thing.

I think it`s also something like there`s this bubble I believe, in the House and the Senate in DC, maybe in general because of the age of the leadership there, where it`s a very different culture than most of America. You mentioned, you know, you`ve talked to most Americans about this, about a 14-year-old girl being raped getting an abortion. And, you know, I think there`s still like this idea that abortion is taboo or that gay marriage even, you know, there`s this -- there`s this complete disconnect because of the -- of the age group possibly or just because of the cultural differences of the leadership, I think, and it really causes some problems and what they`re willing to push for.

You know, I mean, even in our landmark, you know, accomplishments as a -- as a party over the last 20 years, you know, something like Obamacare, that was a Republican plan, right? So, so often the Democratic Party, at least in my lifetime, has been on the defensive over and over and over and trying to sort of wear this cloak of we`re almost like Republicans just cooler instead of going out there and fighting for ideas that are way more popular, policies that are way more effective, and leading this country -- I mean, you know, like you mentioned again, in the monologue, I think there`s something, again, that Representative Ocasio-Cortez said that you`ve got the leadership of this party going out saying that we need strong Republican Party.

They did that during an election cycle, right? President Biden was out during an election cycle saying that we need a strong Republican Party while down-ballot candidates are trying to fight for a majority of swing seats.


TRENT: It`s insane. We have a really strong Republican Party. In fact, they just overturn Roe. They`re playing damn strong with this strong Democratic Party.

HAYES: Yes. And I think you know, Katie, that to, Corbin`s, I mean, let`s be clear. Like Nancy Pelosi`s House has passed the House version of law to codify Roe, Right? It`s not like they slept on it. It`s not like they didn`t do that. And you know, she`s also right and Democrats are also right that like, you can`t wave a magic wand and let -- and have Kristen Sinema and Joe Manchin overturn the filibuster. They won`t do it. So it`s like I don`t want to be -- I want to be realistic like, it isn`t Nancy Pelosi`s fault like the House Democrats have passed this basically, but there has to be something to give people short of another 30 years and maybe we get enough people on the court.

HILL: We know -- we have known for a long time that this is coming. Yes, that`s not OK. We have known that this is coming. We know that we have a reality that we live in, right, a reality in which the majority of Congress is still made up of men and where we have a rogue Supreme Court that was put in place by extremist senators and an extremists president and is acting in the extreme way that they promised.


HILL: So, are you really going to sit here and say that our answer is oh, well, we knew this was coming but shoot just vote November, you kidding me? Like right now what are we going to do? And I think that the answer is partly tone. Do you understand that women are going to die right now? Every single politician needs to be talking to the abortion clinic that`s nearest them, if not the one -- like if they don`t have one in their district or in their state even, they need to be talking to people to say, what is happening? What is happening to the women who are possibly dying right now and what are we going to do about it?

So, we need protections for medicated abortion. That can happen at the executive level. We need -- we need to -- sources to people to travel out of state for care, to you know, really clarify privacy concerns with period tracking apps, like all of those things can happen and don`t need to wait.

In the meantime, every single person -- I don`t care if you`re a Democrat or Republican, if you`re an 18-year-old woman who thinks she`s never going to have kids, or if you`re a grandma in her 70s or 80s. You need to be asking your representative, what about this?


HILL: What does it mean if someone I love needs an abortion? What does it mean if someone I love loses pregnancy and needs to have that taken care of medically? And if you can`t answer it, if your politician or your representative can`t answer it, an answer to what happens today then they need to be out. And that focus needs to be on the seats that we can win and the seats that -- and we can win everything should be on the table right now. We`re talking about women that fundamentally get this everywhere across the country and that don`t normally vote and I don`t -- I don`t understand how we can be accepting anything short of that.

HAYES: Katie Hill and Corbin Trent, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. Last week, the January 6 committee said there will be no more hearings for the rest of the month.


Today, in a surprise change of events, they announced a last-minute hearing for tomorrow. So what newly obtained evidence can be so urgent the committee couldn`t wait to reveal it to the public? Oh, and by the way, what do we know about why the Department of Justice says?


HAYES: In June, the January 6 Committee held five televise hearings, during each one they laid out a strong case against Donald Trump and his allies with revealing testimony from Republicans closest to the ex-President. Now, last Thursday, was to be their final hearing for a couple of weeks, that`s what we`re anticipating, and then today, really out of nowhere, the committee made a surprise announcement that their next hearing will actually be tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. Eastern to "present recently obtained evidence and receive witness testimony." We will apparently be hearing from one unnamed witness.

Now -- until now, the committee had always announced the witnesses and topics in advance, right now, we don`t know at all what to expect from tomorrow`s hearing. Betsy Woodruff Swan is a national correspondent for Politico, she`s been following all the January 6 hearings, and she joins me now. Betsy, what do we know?


BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: We know this is a really weird situation that typically the committee has been announcing that there will be a hearing, not necessarily with witnesses` names a week ahead of those hearing dates. Typically, they`ve been much more engaged, doing a lot more to kind of lay the groundwork publicly from what`s happening in these hearings. In this case, however, it`s very, very unusual. There`s only barely 24 hours for people to get ready to cover this hearing and for networks to determine whether or not they`re going to air it live. It`s an extremely weird situation.

That said, this is not the first kind of strange plot twist that`s happened with select committee hearings. At the very first hearing, Vice-Chair Liz Cheney laid out what sounded like a fairly clear roadmap for about six hearings, each with a different subject matter that the committee would get into that roadmap, of course, has been jettisoned. They had to totally reschedule one here in the Justice Department for reasons that they didn`t provide a huge amount of detail on regarding that above other hearings forward all the way into July and now they`re scrambling and having this hearing on incredibly short notice.

The challenge with the committee is they`re trying to do two things simultaneously. They`re both really hard. First, they`re trying to present to the public a coherent story about a complicated and in some ways, legally complex set of events.

HAYES: Right.

SWAN: At the same time, they`re trying to gather as much information as they possibly can about those events. It`s two different tracks and when one track gets ahead of the other, weird stuff happens.

HAYES: Well, I think that`s well said because I think my -- what I have seen and what`s have been reported is that I think that the presentation of the evidence has shaken some stuff loose and produced more information, and then now that they`re dealing with that information. In that regard, I mean, huge news today, John Eastman, the number one sort of pro-coup lawyer for the president says that federal agents seized his phone. I think it happened perhaps the day before the other pro-coup lawyer, the one working in the Department of Justice, Jeffrey Clark, had his home raided. This strikes me as an enormous deal and then suggests there are some pretty big doings happening over at DOJ.

SWAN: No question. Last week, there was just an explosion of activity within the Justice Department directed at people, particularly who were connected to the alternate elector`s schemes. There were a host of subpoenas delivered obviously there was a search warrant executed at Jeff Clark`s house and now, Eastman himself has revealed that he also was the subject of a search warrant.

Often, when DOJ engages in action like this, where it`s lots and lots of people all at the same time, it`s because they`re worried about potential coordination or destruction of evidence among those people. There`s a reason they`re you know stretching it out over several weeks. That`s a likely explanation as to concerns that may exist within the department that would explain this time.

And what`s also notable is that both the Jeff Clark search warrant and the John Eastman search warrants are connected to the Justice Department`s Office of Inspector General, the very powerful internal DOJ watchdog that has the authority to make criminal referrals and also has the authority to investigate allegations of crimes committed by DOJ employees. The fact that the OIG, Office of the Inspector General, is involved in another new wrinkle that points to frankly, just how many law enforcement officials are really, really concerned about the January 6 situation.

HAYES: Yes, I keep thinking about the associate White House Counsel telling Eastman he`s going to need a good criminal lawyer of the day after January 6, and here we are. We, of course, will be covering those hearings tomorrow live here at MSNBC and we will have our special primetime wrapped up -- wrap-up hosted by Rachel Maddow and the rest of the crew, including yours truly, tomorrow night at 8 p.m. Betsy Woodruff Swan, thank you.

SWAN: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, what happened to Rudy Giuliani during his visit to a Staten Island supermarket? We will get to the bottom of it. Plus, the Republican senator implicated in the coup plot changes his story again, his newest version of events just ahead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much did you know about what your chief of staff was doing with the alternate slates of electors?

JOHNSON: I`m on the phone right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not. I can see your phone. I can see your screen.




CHRIS HAYES, NBC NEWS HOST: We got an election day tomorrow in several states including right here in New York. One of the Republicans running in the primary for governor here on the Republican side is former Trump aide Andrew Giuliani, the son of former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who had his law license suspended for trying to steal the election.

So, he has plenty of time on his hands these days to help his kid run for office.

This Sunday, the Giulianis, dad and son were out campaigning at a ShopRite grocery store in Staten Island. And in that story, to hear him tell it, America`s mayor was viciously attacked by a grocery store worker.


RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: All of a sudden, I feel a shot on my back. Like somebody shot me. I went forward, but luckily I didn`t fall down. Lucky I`m a 78-year-old who`s in pretty good shape., because if I wasn`t, I`d have hit the ground and probably cracked my skull.



HAYES: Oh, Rudy Giuliani told the New York Post that the worker also verbally attacked him: "I feel this tremendous pain in my back and I`m thinking what the -- all of a sudden, I hear this guy say you`re an effing scumbag."

Giuliani also told the New York Times he was left with "red marks on his back but was not bleeding".

He told his Facebook audience, the physical assault was extremely painful.


GIULIANI: I got hit on the back as if a boulder hit me. It knocked me forward a step or two. It didn`t knock me down but it hurt tremendously.


HAYES: Again, that was how Giuliani described it. And then, the grocery store released the actual footage of the alleged assault. This is what it showed.

There is Rudy standing right there in the middle with his back to us looking away from the camera. Then, out of nowhere. What? Whoa, wait, that`s it? That`s what felt like a boulder, a gunshot? Let`s take another look in slow motion. Rudy standing there. He`s talking and then somebody slaps him on the back. The two men appear to exchange words and that`s it. That was the assault as Rudy tells it.

Now, the police arrested the man there, the worker, charged with him assault. Worker`s lawyer released a statement saying in part: "Our client merely patted Mr. Giuliani, who sustained nothing remotely resembling physical injuries, without malice to simply get his attention, as the video footage clearly showed. He was then needlessly held by the NYPD and customer for over 24 hours.

It goes without saying nobody should lay hands on anyone, not Rudy Giuliani and not anyone, regardless of their intention.

The tape of the interaction does make Rudy Giuliani`s description of the assault seem pretty ridiculous. Well, it`s a good reminder to take what these guys say with just the largest possible grain of salt on planet Earth.

Same is true of Senator Ron Johnson`s ludicrous claim last week when he first pretended to be on the phone, and then said he was unaware of his staff`s involvement in the fake electoral scheme.

Well, the truth is now finally starting to come out. And of course, that was a lie. We`ll explain next.



HAYES: So, last week, we got a lot of new evidence from the January 6 committee, but one important thing, they revealed shocking evidence that implicated Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin and his office in Donald Trump`s coup plot.

The committee revealed this text exchange between Johnson`s chief of staff on the left your screen and a Mike Pence staffer, asking Johnson`s office to pass along fake electors on January 6th, like in person, apparently.

The Department of Justice is of course currently investigating this very plot. They`ve served a bunch of subpoenas on it.

So, Senator Johnson has tried to deny, minimize and spin it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Johnson, how much did you know about what your chief of staff was doing with the alternate slates of electors?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I`m on the phone right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not. I can see your phone. I can see your screen.

Can you explain what your chief of staff was doing? Does your chief of staff still work for you, Senator? Did you support his efforts to try to get those slates to the vice president?

JOHNSON: No, I had no knowledge of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who`s the person --

JOHNSON: Well, I don`t -- you know, I had no involvement in an altered slate of -- slate of electors. I had no idea that it will be delivered to us, that delivered staff to staff, by chief of staff do the right thing, contact the vice president`s staff. They said didn`t want it, so we didn`t deliver it. That`s the end of story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who`s the person that delivered it to your office?

JOHNSON: I have no idea.


HAYES: OK, heard that? Two days after Senator Johnson`s pretend phone call, he made an actual phone call to a local right-wing radio show and what do you know? His memory improved.


JOHNSON: I was originally sent a text at 11:36 by -- your friend, I just met him, Judge Troupis. Six minutes later, I set up a text exchange between my chief of staff and Jim, it just says Jim Troupis meet Sean Riley.

We found out now, this came from Pennsylvania Congressman Mike Kelly`s office. We couldn`t remember who delivered this to us, OK?


HAYES: OK. Now, that`s a very different story. Now, for his part, a spokesperson for Republican Congressman Mike Kelly of Pennsylvania said: "Senator Johnson`s statements are patently false. Mr. Kelly has not spoken to Senator Johnson for the better part of a decade. He has no knowledge of the claims Johnson is making related to the 2020 election.

So, we know now is that in his first attempt to swap this all way, the senator clearly lied. Now, a colleague in the House is saying he`s lying again, although who to believe between the two is a tough one.

And the middle of what should be a highly contested re-election battle this year in Wisconsin. The senator and the staff had many more questions to answer about their participation in the coup attempt.

Tim Miller is a former communications director for Jeb Bush`s 2016 campaign, now writer-at-large at The Bulwark, author of Why We Did It: A Travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell, which is just out now. Tim, it`s good to have you here in the studio.

TIM MILLER, WRITER-AT-LARGE, THE BULWARK: Hi, Chris, good to be with you.

HAYES: I mean, you know, you work for -- you worked for politicians, right? They`re spinning and then there`s lying. There`s like shading the truth. He just pretty clearly just flat lied, staff to staff. No knowledge of this, like that wasn`t true.


MILLER: Well, throughout this whole process, Ron Johnson has been lying. You know, at The Bulwark, we published an article by a Wisconsin Republican county chair Mark Becker back before January 6th, between the election and January 6th, where Becker called Senator Johnson and said he was disappointed in him for going along with the stop the steal nonsense.

And Johnson said to Becker on that phone call, I just have to do what I have to do, it`d be political suicide to go against the president on this. We`re just going to wait and see how it turns out and everything will be fine.

So, he was lying that whole time between the election and January 6th, he knew. I think that there is reason to believe that Johnson was more involved in this that he`s even letting on now. Not just because he lied, obviously, but because what you`re hearing from other people in Wisconsin, from staff members.

And in addition to that, we keep learning this Mike Lee, it`s the same story with Mike Lee in Utah.

HAYES: Yes, Mike Lee is also another one. I think what`s important here is like this plot, which is like specifically on the fake electors, and transmitting them that Johnson is implicated in is the subject of like, multiple search warrants being issued by the Department of Justice.

Like, the Department of Justice is really investigating this as a straightforward criminal matter.

MILLER: For sure. And it`s going to be hard to believe that some of the Johnson or other Republican Senate staffers even from the more establishment if that really exists anymore, side are going to be on the receiving end of some of these e-mails.

Look, here`s the thing with Johnson and this way, it`s all it`s always hard to tell with these sorts of senators, like, he`s obviously lying. But in the old Watergate thing, these are just not very bright guys and things got out of hand, right?

So, it is kind of hard to tell the extent to what --

HAYES: Oh, totally, yes. But I also think Johnson is an interesting case to me. So, you got this part of it. I don`t know if you followed his vaccine stuff. It`s been -- some of the most like, aggressively irresponsible and flatly dangerous stuff we`ve seen from any elected politician in the country.

I mean, it`s really uptick when you rank it. He posted this with COVID-19 panel focusing on vaccine skepticism, he was hugely on the hydroxychloroquine. Like really dangerous stuff.

And it`s like, this is a guy -- this is not the senator from the plus 30 Trump`s state.


HAYES: He`s from the state that Biden won. And he acts like a guy who`s just never going to have to face swing voters the rest of his life.

MILLER: Now, look, he`s a prime example -- not to plug the book. But what I write about a little bit about this book is bottom up.

You know, Ron Johnson is dealing with a lot of Republican -- going into Republican chicken dinners, going to Republican events. And he`s -- all this stuff is bubbling up from the ground up. This is --

Ron Johnson, remember, when he first ran, he`s like a business guy who`s going to be a non-ideal -- non culture war kind of business Republican. He knows what is going to -- what is going to make these voters tick. And now the mob is in charge of him.

And so, that is what`s happening on hydroxychloroquine. He was going out there and some of the Russia disinformation stuff and then had to back away from that when it kind of seemed right at the beginning of the Ukraine crisis that maybe the base was going to be more on the Tucker Carlson camp, then kind of ended up being.

And so, Johnson, I think, on conspiracy theory, after conspiracy theory has been following his own base, and he`s got a close election this fall. But I think that right now, he doesn`t -- for whatever reason, he doesn`t feel like he has to worry about that. I think that he`s irrationally confident because of his own chamber and because it`s worked out.

HAYES: Yes and your point is well taken, which I read about in the book about the how demand driven is, right?

But I also think with the vaccine stuff, what became clear to me and again, I don`t know what his diet of consumption is but it was like, as you watch him hit this, it was like, yes, he was pandering. But it also seemed clear and clear to me that like, he was just reading terrible information.

Like, he had brain worms. And that was really concerning to me, because you`re watching this guy out there being like, you know, in the same way of like trumping like, well, the Italians did this, and it`s like, oh, no, you`re a U.S. senator. And you`re up there being like, shove that hydroxychloroquine down your throat.

MILLER: Yes, apart -- oh, he`s getting bad information. And part of that is brain worms, but let me tell you what`s another thing that`s driving it and I saw this time and time again, when I was talking to Republicans, he`s so mad at the media and at the left for going after him and this sort of things and he`s bitter in a great -- which is crazy. You think that this is crazy. You`re a United States senator, like, I bet you`re rich, like everything is turned up Ron Johnson, what do you -- what do you have to be aggrieved about? But he is. He doesn`t like to be criticized. He doesn`t like the way that he`s been criticized.

And so that when people give them information that`s like, here`s how you can make the elites and MSNBC host look dumb, then then he`s like, you`re speaking my language.

HAYES: That`s the two components of the nuclear reactor of modern reactionary politics is like huge amounts of privilege and genuine sense of grievance and victimization. And you put them together, you get Donald Trump, you get all of them, that`s the thing at the core of the reactor. And Ron Johnson is very much that.

Tim Miller, whose new book is Why We Did It: A Travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell. Great to have you here.

MILLER: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: When we come back, what happens in an abortion clinic when a statewide ban goes into effect with the undoing of Roe look like at the last abortion clinic in the entire state of Missouri, after this.



HAYES: Ever since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, the states where abortion is still allowed keeps changing hour by hour as bans go into effect in some places and then courts put a hold on bans in other states. As far as we can figure out right now, here`s where things stand.

Abortion bans are in effect in seven states, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma and South Dakota. Those bans were triggered by the Supreme Court decision and also, Wisconsin where a pre-Roe ban is once again the law.


More bans some near total are expected at least 15 other states, including Texas, Ohio and South Carolina, all states which already ban abortions before most people even know they`re pregnant. And Mississippi of course where the Supreme Court just allowed a 15 week abortion ban.

Two other states Louisiana, Utah already have laws in place to ban abortions. But those laws were put on hold by local courts today, which means abortion care is still available in Louisiana and Utah for now.

But Friday`s unprecedented decision by the Supreme Court left countless other people across the country in desperate need, as abortion services just suddenly closed down.

Dr. Colleen McNicholas is an Ob Gyn in Missouri, which was one of the first states to ban abortion after the Supreme Court ruling. She`s also the chief medical officer of the Planned Parenthood Clinic in St. Louis, which was the very last abortion provider left in the state until abortion became illegal on Friday.

And Dr. McNicholas joins us now. Thank you so much, Doctor, I really appreciate it.


HAYES: First of all, just tell us what the legal situation -- how you heard about it on Friday. And what those consultations with your lawyers were about what it meant.

MCNICHOLAS: Well, the truth is, Chris, that we have been planning for this moment for many, many years. For those of us who are practicing in states like Missouri, and other restrictive states across the country, we knew this moment was coming.

You know, Missourians have been navigating hoop after hoop, restriction after restriction for years, and, you know, at least for the last couple of years, have been fleeing the state to get care in places where they can do that in a dignified way.

On Friday, ironically, we were sitting shoulder to shoulder with Secretary Becerra in our last abortion clinic in Missouri, where we were talking about what we expected the impact to be.

You know, it was a conversation with the secretary, with Congresswoman Bush, with patients who have had abortions with us and with us as providers. And so, it was quite surreal to be ending up that roundtable with a call from the back of the room that said the decision has dropped.

And before we could even leave the room to process that, we heard that our attorney general implemented our trigger ban. And so, within a matter of moments, Missourians lost complete access to abortion care.

HAYES: What is the state of the law? Is it -- is it a total ban on abortions in the state of Missouri?

MCNICHOLAS: It is a total ban with very narrow medical exceptions. And of course, as I`m sure you`ve heard from other physicians, you know, medical exemptions to abortion bans really mean nothing. It puts physicians in an incredibly difficult position to have to decide when a patient is sick enough to get lifesaving care.

And so, we`re really going to see a tremendous impact, I think on maternal mortality broadly, as more and more states ban abortion.

HAYES: What are you doing now for your patients who you can no longer provide this care to?

MCNICHOLAS: You know, well, our affiliate is fortunate and that we just 15 miles away from the St. Louis Clinic, we had opened in 2019, a facility in Southern Illinois, the Planned Parenthood in Fairview Heights.

And so, we have already been for the last few years helping our Missouri patients, those who could travel just across the river to get that care in Illinois.

We`ve partnered with the independent clinic in our area Hope Clinic, to make sure that as a region, we are not only addressing the fact that folks need to come to Illinois, but we`re also addressing what I think is the real critical component in the short term, which is making sure they can get from their home, whether that`s 50 miles away, or 1,500 miles away to our clinic, and then back home.

This navigation piece is going to be critical as we`re looking to mass mobilize tens of thousands of people for basic health care in this country.

HAYES: Are patients worried? I know they`re worried but about their legal exposure? Are they -- are those conver -- are you having those conversations? I mean, I know I don`t think the Missouri law criminalizes women who seek abortions, but it just doesn`t seem that far away.

MCNICHOLAS: Well, even if there are laws or statements or promises from prosecutors and legislators in states like Missouri, that say they`re not going to prosecute women. We have no reason to believe that they won`t.

In fact, we already have seen examples of this. Pregnant people being criminalized for pregnancy outcomes, miscarriages and or self-managed abortion.

You`re absolutely right, we should be expecting that next, whether it`s criminalizing patients who are having abortions or providers who are doing those procedures for them.

HAYES: Dr. Colleen McNicholas there in St. Louis, thank you so much for taking a little time away from your very important work to talk to us.

MCNICHOLAS: Thanks, Chris.


HAYES: That is ALL IN on this Monday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Chris, I have to ask you are you going to be there tomorrow night when we do our primetime recap of tomorrow`s January 6th hearing?

HAYES: I am going to be there. I was in Los Angeles for the last one. But I will absolutely be here sitting at the table right one seat away from you.