Summary
The Lincoln Project`s Stuart Stevens joins Hayes to discuss what happened to Madison Cawthorn and the Republican moral red line. Just an hour before she was set to interview Trump live on the air in late November, Fox Business anchor Maria Bartiromo text messages Meadows the question she planned on asking the president. The January 6 Committee is preparing to publicly lay out all the evidence they`ve gathered. United States has been implementing Stephen Miller`s dream policy at the border for two years now. There`s been all kinds of redistricting gamesmanship going on in states across the country as Republicans and Democrats try to set themselves up for the best possible outcomes.
Transcript
ANGELA OH, CIVIL RIGHTS MEDIATOR: but we also have migration or immigration, anti-immigrant sentiment. We also have class differences. We also have the differences that have to do with our ancestry at odds. Those are going to work themselves through.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Indeed.
And it`s -- like I said, the word is complexity, complexity.
REID: The word -- the word is complexity. I`ve got to go. I`m into Chris Hayes` hour. I want to thank you, Reverend Angela Oh, Reverend Al Sharpton. That is the REIDOUT tonight. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R-NC): We`re starting to see this coordinated drip campaign.
HAYES: A Republican Congressman under fire.
CAWTHORN: They`re going to drop an attack article every one or two days just to try and kill us with the death by 1000 cuts.
HAYES: Tonight, a new barrage of salacious charges against Madison Cawthorn. Why Republicans are trying to defeat him and how they suddenly found a moral red line.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): What was it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moral red lines.
MCCONNELL: Moral red line.
HAYES: Plus, the big news on the January 6 hearings and new text messages from Mark Meadows showing Fox News hosts instructing the White House in the wake of the election.
MARIA BARTIROMO, HOST, FOX NEWS: It`s the DOJ investigating.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Missing in action. I can tell you where they are.
HAYES: And how is it that Stephen Miller`s policies are still controlling immigration at the border? And why are Democrats allowing it? When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. You know, right-wing Republican Congressman Madison Cawthorn of North Carolina has been in a bit of trouble lately. He`s been making headlines all over the place and seems to have enemies everywhere he looks including a significant portion of Republicans and conservatives who have it out for him.
Now, at first blush, that does not make a whole lot of sense. Madison Cawthorn is a rising star in the party. But we`re going to explain why this is happening and what it says about what kind of behavior Republicans will and will not patrol, what they will and will not go after, what they will and will not abide, because Madison Cawthorn is a perfect illustration of where their red line actually is.
Ever since Donald Trump came down the golden escalator at Trump Tower in 2015 announcing his bid for the presidency, it`s been this kind of floating unanswered question. Under what circumstances were Republicans truly unite against one of their own? How far is too far?
Just this month, Senator Mitch McConnell refused to say where he draws the line. That comes after he called Donald Trump morally responsible for the insurrection, but still says he would support the ex-president in another run for the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The moral red lines, where do you draw them?
MCCONNELL: I`m perfectly comfortable with the way I have conducted my political career. And I`d be happy to respond to any specificity you want to apply to the term -- what was it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moral red lines.
MCCONNELL: Moral red line.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let me give you --
MCCONNELL: I`m very l comfortable with my moral red line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The vast majority of Republicans joined McConnell and standing by Trump after he incited the deadly insurrection, an attempt on the lifeblood of American democracy. And most of them have stood by and said nothing is members of their party speak at the conferences of avowed white nationalists and Holocaust deniers.
And as this kind of atrocious behavior happens more and more often, it feels baffling, frustrating, why can`t they do anything? Well, in some cases, they can just ask our buddy Madison Cawthorn. Now, the 26-year-old was elected in 20, winning the seed that Mark Meadows actually vacated when he became Donald Trump`s chief of staff. And it was an upset after both Trump and Meadows endorsed Cawthorn`s opponent.
But Cawthorn quickly and successfully became a MAGA darling, joining the cohort of outrageous far-right House members that now includes Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, and Matt Gaetz of Florida, and Paul Gosar of Arizona. Now, suddenly, he`s in a lot of hot water. And the calls are clearly coming from inside the House.
It began about a week ago and Politico published these photos that appear to show Cawthorn wearing women`s laundry -- lingerie at a party, which they say were provided "by a person formally close to Cawthorn and his campaign." Cawthorn did confirm the veracity in the tweet that blamed his liberal opponents, which seems unlikely. "I guess the left thinks goofy vacation photos during a game on a cruise taken away before I ran for Congress is somehow going to hurt me.
I don`t speak for the left, but I don`t think it came from the left and I don`t really care about the photos. A few days later, this article appeared in the conservative magazine The Washington Examiner detailing an allegation from multiple watchdog groups that Cawthorn may have violated federal insider trading laws.
The accusation, and you`re really not going to believe it until you hear it, it centers around the Let`s Go Brandon cryptocurrency, a meme coin set up in the wake of the chance mocking President Joe Biden`s, of course. Last December, Cawthorn appeared in this Instagram photo posted by the creator of the coin and commented "LGB legends. Tomorrow we go to the moon."
[20:05:07]
The next day, LGB coin did exactly as the lawmaker predicted, spiking 75 percent after a NASCAR driver announced it would be the primary sponsor of his 2022 season. The watchdog groups alleged the evidence suggests that Cawthorn may have advanced nonpublic knowledge of the deal and warrants an investigation from the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission.
In the wake of those accusations, North Carolina Senator Thom Tillis, oh, he`s upset. He`s disturbed. He thinks there`s stuff to respond here. He spoke out against his counterpart in the House saying, Cawthorn "owes North Carolinians an explanation." He also called for an inquiry by the House Ethics Committee.
Oh, but that wasn`t all. On Wednesday, an anti-Cawthorn political action committee requested the Office of Congressional Ethics investigate the congressman for multiple alleged violations of House rules, three of which are related to gifts and loans they say Cawthorn gave a member of his staff named Stephen Smith. Then yesterday, the Daily Mail published several of the salacious exhibits included in that request.
Now, just to be clear, the Daily Mail is a British tabloid that runs all sorts of gossip. This is a recent piece on Tiger King star Joe exotic, to give you an idea of the sort of standard we`re dealing with here. What they published about Madison Cawthorn is obviously ultimately part of this campaign to destroy him.
They echo the salacious accusations made in the ethics complaint that Cawthorn is engaged in an improper relationship with Smith, his senior aide. They published a video which purports to show Smith touching the U.S. Congressman inappropriately, as well as some of their Venmo payment history from June 2018, which they described as being littered with suggestive messages.
Now, again, just really clear, none of this is confirmed. We haven`t independently verified it. And again, on the Daily Mail stuff, I have no idea about the context of messages or the video if they`re real or they`re like ironic in kind of a dumb and childish way. Honestly, I could not possibly really care less. But the point of them all, obviously, is to tank Madison Cawthorn`s prospects in his conservative Southern District.
Now, instead of denying these wild accusations, Cawthorn released a video blaming RINOs, but never really denying any of the allegations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAWTHORN: We have the North Carolina political establishment and one RINO senator who have really targeted me. They`re coming hard. They`re putting hundreds of 1000s of dollars and millions of dollars to be able to defeat me. And they`re starting to say just these ridiculous salacious lies.
I hear from my supporters all the time. I just got this call people polling. They said that you want to raise our tax dollars, which is absurd. I want to remove the federal income tax and I want to cut Social Security spending when that is the exact opposite of what I want -- what I want to do.
We`re starting to see this coordinated drip campaign. When I say a drip campaign, it`s where they`re going to drop an attack article every one or two days just to try and kill us with the death by 1000 cuts. And that is really their main strategy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Again, there`s a broad sort of buffet of accusations here. I don`t know if they`re true. Some of them seem to be like worth investigation. Some of them seem kind of ridiculous. But it`s clear they`re part of a full-scale attack. This is a barrage like Cawthorn described where they, certain forces that are posed to him on the right in the Republican Party, are just throwing everything they can at him.
Now, Madison Cawthorn has made it easy for them. But why have they chosen Madison Cawthorn as their target? Like, what did Madison Coughlin do to deserve this treatment? He did support the Trump coup, but that of course wasn`t it. They don`t punish people for that. There was however his comment about Republican coke orgies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAWTHORN: Look at all these people, a lot of them that I -- you know, I`ve looked up to through my life, always paid attention to politics, guys that you know -- then all of a sudden you get invited to like, oh, hey, we`re going to have kind of a sexual get together at one of our homes. You should come. And I`m like, what did you just ask me to come to? And then you realize they`re asking you to come to an orgy.
Or the fact that you know, there`s some of the people that are leading on the movement to try and remove, you know, addiction in our country, and then you watch them doing a key bump of cocaine right in front of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Now, in the Republican Party, it is one thing to talk about how the libs are degenerates, worshipping Satan, grooming children in pizza shop basements. That`s fine. It`s a whole other thing to suggest that your fellow Republicans are doing the things that Cawthorn alleged there, key bumps with cocaine, I think was the term.
They were very upset about that interview to the podcast. House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy told Cawthorn, he "lost his trust in him" which is very serious. That`s something he never said to say, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, even after she spoke at the podium next to a white nationalist Holocaust denier.
And Senator Thom Tillis even endorsed Cawthorn`s opponent saying Cawthorn had fallen well short of the most basic standards western North Carolina expects from the representatives. And I mean, OK, I guess they like the -- they didn`t like the key bumps, the coke orgies, fine. There`s another major factor at play here too.
[20:10:09]
As Charlie Pierce describes it in Esquire, Cawthorn picked a fight with a Koch brother mini-me. That Koch brother mini-me would be Art Pope, the multimillionaire who`s a right-wing force in the state and bankrolled the Republican takeover of the North Carolina State Legislature. "Cross Art Pope as a Republican in North Carolina and you have the political half-life of a dead vice president."
And Cawthorn clearly crossed him to be clear when he decided to run in the newly drawn -- redrawn 13th district, which had been tailor-made for the Republican Speaker of North Carolina House. As Pierce puts it, Cawthorn meddled the primal forces of nature, and he will atone.
So, yes, there are lines you cannot cross the Republican Party. The story of Madison Cawthorn shows that you cannot go up against the wrong rich mega-donor with a right-wing agenda he needs to implement and favors, he needs to dole out to politicians who carry his water. You cannot openly question the moral degeneracy of your Republican colleagues. You can, however, support the overturning of American democracy, the installation of a dictator against a will the people. And for that, you won`t get in any trouble.
As others have pointed out, what is happening Madison Cawthorn is kind of what it would look like if Republicans say, really turned on Donald Trump after he incited an insurrection, or even if he decided to hold Marjorie Taylor Greene or Paul Gosar accountable for their actions. But of course, they have not.
I suppose it`s some combination of the fact they`re scared, they don`t actually care about the infractions. And that`s the thing, right? They don`t care about democracy, about whether this system endures, the will of the people. They care about, you know, their personal reputations for being non-coke orgy attenders and maintaining their hold on power. And Madison Cawthorn has threatened that.
Stuart Stevens is a senior adviser at the Lincoln Project, author of It Was All A Lie: How The Republican Party Became Donald Trump. And he joins me now. Stuart, as a lifelong Republican politics practitioner, it is really something to watch the kitchen sink. I mean, the knives out just day after day -- one is in the Washington Examiner, this is in the Daily Mail, this isn`t Politico, these photos. Like, they are just really, really unloading here.
STUART STEVENS, SENIOR ADVISER, LINCOLN PROJECT: Yes, I`m kind of scratching my head how it`s okay for the Republican Party to think that they`re going to have a sexual assaulter who is a pathological liar, has a thing for Hitler as president. But if you have that as your congressman from North Carolina, this is just an outrage.
You know, I think what`s happening here is you know, Madison Cawthorn doesn`t have any power, so it`s OK to do this to him. And it`s sort of like somebody that knocks off a bank for $10 million, and then tries to get credit for turning in a wallet. Call me honest. This is just all performance art. They don`t -- as you point out, they don`t have any problem with his voting record.
And it`s clearly not a moral line here. It`s just about some sort of inside power game and the fact that they want to be able to say that they don`t approve of this stuff, although clearly, they do because the leader of the Republican Party is worse than Madison Cawthorn.
HAYES: Yes. And it`s also noteworthy that like they were sort of waiting to jump on that podcast interview, which I think you know, was part of what they got. But also, none of this has -- yes, none of this has to do with the insurrection stuff. And it`s so striking, even here Kevin McCarthy say like he has lost my trust as a statement, which is really genuinely harsher than I have heard from him.
Again, Marjorie Taylor Greene got up to the podium with this guy who was saying, like, go Putin, like after Putin had invaded Ukraine at like, you know, essentially avowed white nationalist conference. I don`t know if they call themselves that, but that`s what they are. And there was never anything as harsh as she had lost my trust.
STEVENS: Yes, I mean, look, Kevin McCarthy we know is a liar. So, I`m sure behind the scenes, he sent yelling from different to Cawthorn. You know, this is what happens when you have a party that just loses any kind of moral center. There`s nothing there. It`s just all about power. So, when you don`t have any standards that you stand for except defeating the other side, it just all becomes like a mess. And that`s what the Republican Party is.
It exists to beat Democrats. It doesn`t really stand for any political philosophy that you can articulate. I mean, listen to this guy. He wants to abolish the income tax. But he`s fine. You know, he was part of the 57 percent who voted not to certify the election. That`s OK. I just think it`s a sign of how lost the Republican Party is.
HAYES: There`s also -- the fact that you`ve got -- you know, Tillis is going after him. All these -- all these folks have sort of decided to go after sort of make an example of Cawthorn. But also, like, on this kind of like these salacious innuendos, there`s really a question of like, whether this works, right?
I mean, you know, I`m reminded of the fact that Cawthorn won his first race because even though Trump and Meadows endorse his opponent, he was seen as more like, more MAGA than the MAGA person. And the same thing happened with Roy Moore against Luther Strange in Alabama where Trump tried to endorse Luther Strange, but like the base kind of knew what it wanted. It`s just not even clear to me that all this stuff even works anymore.
[20:15:32]
STEVENS: I don`t think it does. Look, Donald Trump is a guy that talks in public about having sex with his daughter, and they were nominated and got elected President of the United States with Republican Party. He runs the Republican Party today. He`s a guy that used to walk through the dressing room of a Miss Teen Universe, or USA contest. It`s just -- it`s a facade here that because this guy is sort of an obviously a troubled kid, has issues, there`s not going to be any backlash to attacking him or trying to say, well, this is outrageous.
So, it just kind of becomes like a freebie here. I can prove that I really have morals because I`m going to object to this guy appearing in a picture on a cruise in lingerie. It`s like, really, but like Donald Trump is OK? It just doesn`t parse.
HAYES: Yes. And it`s and it becomes also this sort of club enforcement, right? Like, we get to say who runs in that seat. We get to say who is in and out. There`s sort of reassertion of that prerogative, which in many ways they`ve lost, right? I mean, that`s the other thing. You can sort of - - you can watch the sort of glee with which they`re prosecuting this because it`s an attempt to like, essentially assert control that is not really that tangibly there anymore.
STEVENS: No, not at all. Look, I`m sure this is about some inside politics in North Carolina. Cawthorn is not a very likable person. He`s not someone who like, goes out of his way to do favors if he kind of doesn`t fit in it. So, it`s like easy. It`s sort of like high school bullying. It doesn`t really have anything to do with substance. It`s just where the Republican Party is, which I think is just completely lost.
HAYES: Stuart Stevens, thank you so much for your time.
STEVENS: Thank you.
HAYES: Still ahead, new text messages revealing the close partnership between Fox News and the Trump White House. How Mark Meadows use Fox News in his unofficial calm shop, and the host not only supplied the questions ahead of an interview with the president but threw in an answer too. And all that is just scratching the surface.
Don`t go anywhere. We have much more to get you right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:00]
HAYES: Day after day, we continue to get new revealing text messages from Donald Trump`s chief of staff Mark Meadows. The latest messages show an unseen level of partnership between Fox News host and the White House. Just an hour before she was set to interview Trump live on the air in late November, Fox Business anchor Maria Bartiromo text messages Meadows the question she planned on asking the president.
Bartiromo wrote, "Hi, the public wants to know he will fight this. They want to hear a path to victory and he`s in control. First question, you said many times this election is rigged, and the facts are on your side. Let`s start there. What are the facts? Characterize what took place here." And here`s what happened just an hour later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Mr. President, you`ve said many times that this election was rigged, that there was much fraud, and the facts are on your side. Let`s start there. Please go through the facts. Characterize what took place?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Verbatim, verbatim, the same thing. There you go. She literally sent the question to Meadows before the interview. The best part also is that Bartiromo also gave this kind of pep talk before the interview. I`ll quote again. Please make sure he doesn`t go off on tangents. We want to know he is strong, he`s a fighter, and he will win. For the record, Trump did not take her note on tangents.
She`s not the only Fox host in touch with Meadows. He and Sean Hannity had a number of exchanges, according to these documents that we`ve got. We already knew about some of the from the day of the insurrection that were made public by the committee investigating the insurrection.
But now we`re learning about more than 80 messages sent between Hannity and Meadows. In one early December conversation, Hannity seems to be setting up a business partnership with Meadows writing, "If this doesn`t end the way we want you, me, and Jay are doing three things together. One, directing legal strategies versus Biden, two, North Carolina real estate, three, other business.
In another exchange, Hannity wrote, I was screaming about no ads from Labor Day on. I made my own. They never ran it. I`m not pointing fingers. I`m frustrated. Then there was this on Election Day with Meadows giving marching orders. He writes, stress every vote matters. Get out and vote. On the radio. Hannity respond, yes, sir. On it. Any place, in particular, we need to push? Meadows then lists Pennsylvania and North Carolina, Arizona, and Nevada. To which Hannity response, got it. Everywhere. Is turnout low? Meadows replies, no, it seems good. But some of our people said it was going to be a landslide. I don`t want that out there.
That same afternoon, here`s Hannity working a very similar get out the vote message on his radio show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS: I am acting as though and knowing that every single solitary vote matters. What I can report to you, and this is information. I`ve been on the phone all day with people all over the country is every state that matters, and we`ve gone over them probably ad nauseam, is showing incredible heavy turnout in Republican areas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:07]
HAYES: I mean, yes, that`s pretty boilerplate stuff. But again, knowing who Sean Hannity was text messaging, the conversations that were had between them, it really is quite striking that basically what you`re dealing with here is just like a full on partnership behind the scenes.
Joining me now from Media Matters, Laura Millican who`s the senior vice president there and who has been doing -- Julie Milliken, sorry, and the Vice President of Media Matters a media watchdog group. And she joins me now.
Julie, again, I think we all know this at some level. But it is remarkable just how granular the coordination is here.
JULIE MILLICAN, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, MEDIA MATTERS: It is, isn`t it? I think that goes back to your original point here is that the texts themselves don`t necessarily come as a surprise if you`ve been watching Fox, but at the same time, they`re extremely stunning to see it all playing out.
You know, Fox News has been a longtime arm of the Republican Party that translated into a full-blown propaganda outlet when Trump administration came into power. The organization or the news network and Trump have a longstanding relationship. They have a very symbiotic relationship.
Sean Hannity has been described as Donald Trump`s, you know, Shadow Chief of Staff. And I think those text messages showed that this is exactly that. He was coordinating, colluding with Trump`s chief of staff. Bartiromo who the network purports is a, you know, one of their suppose it straight news anchors is literally handing not just questions but talking points to Trump and advice to Trump on how he should be responding all in the service of undermining our election results in 2020.
So, it`s really quite stunning to see it all play out, though not entirely surprising if you`ve watched the coverage of the network.
HAYES: I mean, the Bartiromo stuff, it`s -- you know, it`s not just the questions are verbatim. Like, here`s the script, again, to the President of the United States. This is a principal -- like this is the most powerful person that you could possibly interview, right? But also, the coaching on the answers. Like, it`s not enough -- there`s not enough faith that the people on the other end can take care of that if you give them the questions. But actually, you got to like both like sandwich in a little. Like, please like, keep them -- let`s stay focused. This is what we need from him. Like, it`s sort of a little sad, actually, that like, you know, it`s not enough to give the questions.
MILLICAN: I give her credit for trying, I guess, in one sense, because he certainly didn`t heed her advice at all. I believe that interview lasted about 45 minutes and consisted of him rambling on, pushing all manners of conspiracy theories about the election results, and none of which, of course, she pushed back on.
But it is interesting that even they realize that, you know, he`s not necessarily making the best case for himself, and they have to try to do what they can to keep him on message.
HAYES: And obviously, this is -- you know, there`s no standards here that are uniformly applied. But we should note that like, you know, Donna Brazile. the questions that she apparently was sent, that work came from the hacked e-mail of Neera Tanden that was hacked by Russian GRU intelligence. Like, that was a talking point for the right forever.
Jeff Zucker at CNN like, basically lost his job in part because an internal investigation appeared to show that he had made me shared questions with Governor Andrew Cuomo before he was on the show. Like, that was apparently a fireable offense. This is just appears to be like complete standard practice over there.
MILLICAN: Absolutely. I mean, hypocrisy knows no bounds on the right for one. And two, yes, it is -- what we saw here is a news -- supposed news network, so-called news network, working hand in hand with a Republican administration to advance propaganda that undermines our election.
And that should be concerning to anybody, frankly, that this is a -- this is the type of thing that you would see in Russia, for instance, you know, these are the type of things that if it was happening on the left, the right would be rightly outraged about. It would be a huge issue. I don`t think this is acceptable for any sort of, you know, functioning democracy to have this type of relationship.
And what we saw them do with this is actively tried to overthrow an election result, it led to an insurrection. And it`s frankly, just, you know, upsetting to see. And unfortunately, like, it hasn`t changed.
HAYES: Well, I`ll just come clean and say I`m not texting anyone questions to their interviews. And also, I am not in any business ventures in North Carolina real estate with Mark Meadows, with anyone I cover, or anyone. Julie Millican, thank you for --
MILLICAN: That was. ---
HAYES: Thank you very much.
MILLICAN: Thank you very much. It`s great talking with you.
HAYES: Still to come, the public hearings for the January 6 investigation begin in June. I`ll talk to a member of the committee about what needs to happen between now and the first hearing and what we can expect right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:31]
CHRIS HAYES, NBC NEWS HOST: The January 6 committee is preparing to publicly lay out all the evidence they`ve gathered.
Over the past nine months, Chairman Bennie Thompson announcing at least eight public hearings starting June 9th, some of them being held in primetime.
But until then, the committee is still gathering information and evidence. Chairman Thompson says they are preparing to send requests this week for testimony to several GOP lawmakers, including Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California, Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio, and Pennsylvania Congressman Scott Perry, along with at least one senator.
[20:35:02]
HAYES: Congresswoman Elaine Luria is a Democratic Virginia, serves on the January 6th committee, and she joins me now.
Congresswoman, obviously, the chairman broke this news yesterday in conversations with reporters. And I know you don`t want to get out ahead of the chairman. It`s still early, but broadly, how should we be thinking about these public hearings that are upcoming?
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): Well, Chris, it`s good to be back. Yes, I think that people have been waiting for a long time to hear the dates of the hearings. So, as the chairman said, starting June 9th.
This will be an opportunity for the committee to lay out the work that we`ve been doing for a year, essentially, collecting information about all the events leading up to January 6th that have occurred that day, and really paint a coherent picture of all the things that went into this plot, this attempted coup, this insurrection that sparked the violence, I think that it will be of great interest to understand the risks that this posed to our Democracy.
HAYES: Meadows obviously, has been fighting the committee`s subpoena. Mark Meadows, of course, that`s been referred to the Department of Justice, there`s been no word from the Department of Justice there. I know the committee is going to reach out to some other sitting members.
Is there any reason -- do you have any expectation you will get the testimony of these folks before the hearing begins?
LURIA: Well, you know, this is a large investigation, we`re continuing to collect evidence, to do interviews, and we`ll be kicking off the hearings on June 9th, but we will continue to collect evidence to talk to people who have information that`s valuable to the committee.
So, you know, as I`ve said many times, you know, a subpoena is, you know, something that people have to comply with. Mark Meadows has chosen to ignore that. And obviously, that`s working his way through the courts now, but in a request from the committee, are very important and seeking information for the American people.
HAYES: Do you have any concern given that we`ve now learned quite a bit of what`s happened, the Mark Meadows text messages, which I know you can`t or won`t verify one way or the other, that have been made public in many respects, some by the committee themselves, others through unknown means that are out there, that that will blunt the impact of the -- of the hearings, given that along the way a lot has been disclosed?
LURIA: Chris, I don`t think so. The information that is, you know, been released by the committee and you know, the subpoenas and letters we`ve issued, things that have become known to the public and otherwise, it`s just the tip of the iceberg.
There is so much information having interviewed 850 witnesses, I think we have about 100,000 documents. I think that there is much more that will be of interest as we tell the story from the beginning to the end.
HAYES: When people think about these midterms, right? And do you have any sense? I mean, obviously, this committee is important from an oversight standpoint, right? It`s important sort of just on first principles.
But I do wonder whether you have any hope there`s a political point here as well about who wields power and how they do or whether this is just so removed from voters` minds, that it`s just too far down the list in what people are prioritizing? What do you think?
LURIA: Well, you know, one thing I would say, you know, being a member of Congress, who serves on the committee, and I`m out in my community talking to people, one of the most common things people say and come up to me, and you know, sometimes even people say, I didn`t vote for you. You know, but they thank me for my work on the committee, because they really think that this is important to get to the bottom of what happened.
And you know, what I`d say is, you know, we were talking about members of Congress, who the committee is reaching out to, and the list is going to get longer. The constituents of those people, I think they`d want to know if they were amongst the group of people who essentially tried to orchestrate a coup.
You know, who were -- you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene reaches out and says, you know, Hey, Mark Meadows, just letting you know that there`s a few members of Congress, and we`re sitting around talking about, you know, whether we should implement martial law, you know. Who were those other members of Congress? And don`t you think that their constituents would want to know that that was something that they were involved in?
HAYES: That`s a good point. Congresswoman, Elaine Luria, thank you very much for your time tonight.
Still to come, how Stephen Miller used the pandemic to turn migrants away at the southern border and why that policy is still in effect today.
Plus, the latest on the redistricting fights, it could decide who controls the House after the midterm elections. All that`s coming up, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:43:56]
HAYES: I don`t think a lot of people know this, but the United States has been implementing Stephen Miller`s dream policy at the border for two years now. And that policy is still in place and basically being kept in place by a crazy combination of rogue lawless judges, by Republican and right-wing demagoguery and by some Democratic cowardice.
It is a policy that has gone on for too long, it has to stop because the current situation is outrageous and untenable, and somehow it is flying under the radar.
So, asylum law in the United States has evolved over the years in part because we`ve learned from mistakes from the past, like in 1939, when the U.S. notoriously refused to allow hundreds of Jews fleeing Germany on the ship known as the St. Louis to enter the country, forcing them to return to Europe. More than 250 of those passengers were later murdered in the Holocaust.
Now, Federal law says immigrants are not authorized to be in the U.S. cannot be deported if they have a credible fear of violence in their home country.
And over the past decade, asylum claims have gone up, typically at the southern border as endemic violence has grown in South America, particularly Central America.
[20:45:05]
HAYES: Right now, there are people from Ukraine who are trying to enter the United States from Mexico, fleeing the war there.
Again, the idea here of asylum, and it`s around the world, people show up at the border desperate for safety, and they basically throw themselves on the mercy of the country they land in. That`s what asylum is. That`s what`s happening here in the U.S.
Now, there was a huge surge of refugees from Central America in 2014 under Barack Obama, you might remember. It led to a complete right-wing meltdown.
And then, another huge surge happened again under Donald Trump, leading Trump and his top anti-immigrant adviser Stephen Miller to start -- well, kidnapping children essentially.
But that produced an understandable backlash and was dropped ultimately a walk back.
Now, you got to understand, Stephen Miller`s primary goal in life is just to limit the number of people coming to the U.S. as much as he can. It`s what he lives for.
That is why Miller then helped implement a policy known as Remain in Mexico, the Trump administration started enforcing in 2019.
Now, the major change in that policy, was it even if asylum seekers passed this credible fear screening, right? That they got interviewed by an official who said, yes, they`re scared to go back, they have a credible fear. They were then sent back to Mexico to await their asylum hearing. A process that can take years and offers its own dangers, all kinds of horror stories coming out of what those folks on the Mexican border are subjected to while they wait for their hearing.
But that was not enough for Stephen Miller. New York Times reported that since Trump entered office, Miller had "repeatedly tried to use an obscure law designed to protect the nation from diseases overseas as a way to tighten the borders". That law is known as Title 42. And it enables the CDC to stop people from entering the country due to the threat of a communicable disease.
Miller`s problem was that Title 42 had never been used since there was no justification. And then, the pandemic came along, then COVID.
And before the first wave of COVID had peaked in this country, the Trump administration invoked Title 42 in March of 2020.
The Associated Press reported Vice President Mike Pence directed the CDC to seal the borders, overruling the agency scientists who said there was no evidence the action would slow the coronavirus.
Stephen Miller, a top aide to the President Donald Trump who had been a vocal opponent of immigration pushed for the expulsion order. That was a Stephen Miller special, he was all over that said Olivia Troye, a former top aide to Pence who coordinated the White House Coronavirus task force.
Now, the medical reason to enact Title 42 was really thin, that`s not what he did. They did it because Stephen Miller had the weapon he needed to close the border.
But Donald Trump and Stephen Miller have been gone for over a year. And both of those programs remain in Mexico and Title 42 are both still in effect, as I speak to you tonight, despite being essentially right-wing anti-immigrant policies that effectively suspended the multi decade`s tradition and international and domestic law and practice of asylum.
They are in place not because the Biden administration is like oh, they`re fine. The Biden administration has tried to revoke both of them and has been stopped by judges who tell them they do not have the legal authority to revoke these provisions, even though Joe Biden is the president and courts have found that presidents have a lot of control over immigration, including right-wing courts have found that in the past.
Not only that, there is now a growing movement to extend Title 42, the so- called public health measure. Republicans really want it done. And this is even though asking the Republican around the country and they say the pandemic is over and they`re cheering no masks on airplanes and just missing vaccines and other health public health measures saying we`re done with COVID, done with COVID.
How dare you talk about COVID back in school? Oh, except for the southern border. No, no, no, obviously the southern border where COVID obviously still exists and it`s such a threat that we need to extend Title 42 in perpetuity, give me a break.
And some Democrats, like Senators Raphael, Warnock and Jon Tester, Catherine Cortez Masto and Maggie Hassan, are saying they don`t want to ditch Florida Title 42 either. None of them of course represent states along the southern border.
There`s a political fear here, again, not a crazy political fear. They`re terrified of the optics, lots of people showing up at the border.
This demagoguery that was whipped up by Fox News that stoke the fear of a migrant invasion every single day for years, they`re still running it constantly. It is now being wielded to fundamentally it has suspended and now destroyed the structure of asylum as constituted in this country in the wake of the Holocaust.
Now, if people really want to do that, OK, and I think there are people that do, that all these Democrats who are supporting Stephen Miller`s Title 42 should just come out and say it.
In fact, Congress can write a bill. Hey, we`ve moved on. Never again was a long time ago, for St. Louis it was a long time ago.
[20:50:02]
HAYES: If people get sent back to their certain deaths, tough. But it is utter cowardice to hide behind this public health measure and some terrible right-wing judges to withdraw the U.S. from its asylum requirements and abandon this moral imperative to help those who need it most.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: It may not feel like it but the midterms are not that far away. Election Day is in just over six months, control of both houses of Congress is at stake.
There`s been all kinds of redistricting gamesmanship going on in states across the country as both parties try to set themselves up for the best possible outcomes. Places like New York and Florida and Ohio. We`re going to talk about all those states and why one is not like the others with one of the most foremost election experts. Dave Wasserman is the House Editor of Cook Political Report with Amy Walter and he joins me now.
[20:55:25]
HAYES: Dave, you`ve been following the redistricting story, you know, all year, last year as well. And I feel like there`s basically been three acts.
So, act one was Republicans are poised to gain a lot of net seats, just through redistricting. If they sort of play their cards right, they`re super aggressive.
Act two was, actually, not so fast for a variety of reasons. State court decisions, how Texas Republicans chose to gerrymander. It`s looking like it could be almost breakeven.
Now, we`re in Act three. What has happened in act three?
DAVE WASSERMAN, HOUSE EDITOR, THE COOK POLITICAL REPORT: Yes, Chris, this redistricting round has been whiplash inducing. And just a couple of months ago, it looked like Democrats were going to gain seats in redistricting, it looked like a bright spot in an otherwise bleak election cycle for Democrats.
Now, because of developments in Ohio, where Republicans have essentially run out the clock on legal challenges to a gerrymander that could give them 13 out of 15 seats in Florida, where Governor Ron DeSantis overpowered his own legislature to pass a map that would give Republicans 20 out of 28 districts in a state that`s pretty closely contested.
And then, in New York, where a state Supreme Court made up of entirely Democratic appointees struck down a Democratic gerrymander that was supposed to be the counterweight to Florida. And that adds up to a plot twist at the very end of this process that`s giving Republicans an even bigger advantage than we thought heading into the midterms.
HAYES: Yes, so you put it this way. And I think this is well said. Florida, New York, and Ohio all have extremely similar anti gerrymandering language enshrined in state constitutions passed by voters, but only New York is on track to enforce its reforms. And that`s the difference powering GOP gains in 2022 redistricting.
Let`s talk about the Ohio situation, which seems particularly sort of wild. I mean, am I right that they`ve just basically like, ignored the court`s order that the maps have to be tossed?
WASSERMAN: Yes, Chris, you know, in January, the state Supreme Court in Ohio struck down the Republican proposal as contrary to the state constitution, and there was an amendment passed by voters by considerable majority that reformed the process that said that perhaps could not give one party in undue advantage.
And the Chief Justice Maureen O`Connor, who`s a moderate Kasich (PH) Republican, she ruled not only against the congressional maps, but the state legislative maps.
And then, Republicans went ahead and passed a map that was substantially similar to it. And the court decided that there wasn`t enough time to hold the trial before the primaries.
So, on Tuesday, there`s going to be a primary where voters are voting under gerrymandered lines. And effectively they figured out an end around for this reform that Democrats have not benefited from in New York. And that makes all the difference in this redistricting cycle.
HAYES: Yes, and in New York, instead, what you`ve got is a fairly aggressive Democratic gerrymander. I think that it would be fair to call it that. It would have netted Democrats probably a few -- a few seats.
And again, that was challenged under -- these are all state court challenges, right? And the New York State Supreme Court rejected the congressional maps and those are Democratic judges, at least, you know, I think appointed, right? And they basically say, look, this does not comply with state law.
WASSERMAN: Yes, look, the net result of this is that you`ve got predominantly red states sending gerrymandered delegations to Congress, and predominantly blue states sending neutral delegation to Congress.
Keep in mind that California, New Jersey, Washington State, Virginia, Colorado, they are all employed independent or bipartisan redistricting commissions the cycle and in New York and Maryland, state court struck down Democratic gerrymanders.
If you have -- if you have red states, that are gerrymandering the lines to maximize Republican seats in Texas, Tennessee, Ohio, Florida, then you`re never going to end up with a House map that`s fair or equitable.
WASSERMAN: Right. So, you`ve got this situation, right? Also, like these reforms have been implemented, right, these sort of good government reforms in the states, you know, Colorado, Virginia, the independent commissions, then you`ve got other states where it`s like brass tacks politics, New York was sort of the last like Democratic -- like, the sort of last bastion of that like, all right, we`re just going to maximize Democratic seats.
And now, you`ve got judges in New York throwing that out, which produces this outcome, which looks like it`s going to be probably the final outcome.
Dave Wasserman, who has been telling this for us, thank you very much for taking us through that.
[21:00:09]
WASSERMAN: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: That is ALL IN for this week. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" with Mehdi Hasan starts right now. Good evening, Mehdi.