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Trayvon Martin TRANSCRIPT: 6/12/20, All in w/ Chris Hayes

Guests: Kate Brown, Kavita Patel, William Barber, Sybrina Fulton, Katie Porter

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: In other words, the American culture, and its defeated much tougher men than you. Thanks so much for being with us. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes is up next.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, on ALL IN. The virus, it`s still here and it`s still killing people, although you`d never know it. Watching the head of the task force waltz around unmasked. Some state surging, some reopening, and some like Oregon pressing pause. Governor Kate Brown is here to tell us why.

Plus, why is the Trump administration refusing to tell Americans how $500 billion of our money got spread around the bailout? Congresswoman Katie Porter is here on keeping them honest. Then at a time of sweeping change, Reverend Dr. William Barber on Republican lip service after the murder of George Floyd.

Eight years since the killing of her son Trayvon Martin, she`s gone from tragedy, to activism, to politics. Sybrina Fulton joins me when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. Earlier today, the Vice President of the United States Mike Pence stopped by a diner in Pennsylvania, typical campaign fare, and video that event was shown on T.V. And there, other than a secret service guide appears in the back and later a waitress, almost nobody is wearing masks as far as I can tell. No one, certainly not the supposedly head of the Coronavirus Task Force. Remember that?

And that might seem like a small thing, especially to anyone who has managed to convince themselves they no longer really have to worry about the virus. The reality is the virus is still here. It`s still killing people every day. And the more we learn, the more we know that close sustained indoor proximity without masks, like what they`re doing in the diner, brings with it a high risk of transmission.

It seems the more we learn, the more we learned that masks matter a lot. In many of the countries that have managed to control the virus like Taiwan, pretty much everyone wears masks. In fact, just this week, a British study found that widespread mask wearing could prevent COVID-19 second waves. Not that we are even to the point where you`re trying to prevent a second wave, here in America, sadly, we`re still squarely in the first wave.

We`ve basically plateaued at about 20,000 cases a day and just under 1,000 deaths a day. That is our new devastating normal. We`ve already lost more than 115,000 Americans. Right now, hospitalizations are surging in a number of states, including Arizona, Tennessee, Arkansas, South Carolina, and Alabama.

Two states, Oregon and Utah have paused their reopening efforts amid spikes in cases. In fact, I`m going to talk to the governor of Oregon, Kate brown, in just a moment about that. Two other states with large populations, Florida and Texas, have just reported records for daily highs in new cases. Which is particularly striking, given that Republicans announced yesterday that Jacksonville, Florida is the new alternative location for the Republican National Convention after officials in Charlotte, North Carolina declared the event would not be safe there.

But safety does not seem to be much of a concern for the United States amidst the pandemic that is seen 115,000 people die. Next week, Donald Trump is as you may have heard holding his first campaign rally since the lockdown in where, Tulsa, Oklahoma, where COVID-19 cases just reached a record daily high. That`s right.

Official said the increase has been identified as an outbreak linked to indoor gatherings. OK. The President will be holding his rally at an indoor arena at the Bank of Oklahoma Center, which seats just over 19,000 people packed in there as far as we can tell.

He`s telling his supporters that if they get the Coronavirus at his rally, it`s not his problem. In order to attend they have to agree not to sue Donald Trump if they come to the rally, and they catch the Coronavirus. I mean, at least those people have a choice.

The President has forced graduating cadets at West Point who have been sent home to return to campus so he can deliver a commencement address tomorrow which we think will be outdoors, so that`s good, and he can have a photo-op with them. At least 15 of those cadets have already tested positive for the virus.

The science here as tentative and unformed as sort of dynamic as it is suggests our best hope to fight the virus right now if we want to not have lockdown right, be some version of normal, our best hope right now is wearing masks, washing hands, social distance, but wearing masks, wearing masks, wearing masks.

And yet the President and the Vice President who ostensibly want to get the economy back on track and get back to normal not only refused to wear them, they have effectively turned wearing masks into a culture war issue. And they have stoked this political backlash against those who would dare tell us how to stay safe.

Here`s an example. In Orange County, California, the chief health officer Dr. Nichole Quick resigned amid backlash and a death threat, death threat over an order to wear masks. Residents comparing her to a Nazi and holding protests at her home. This was a scene at Tuesday`s Orange County Board of Supervisors` meeting.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been discriminated five times in the last two days. I have been actually turned away. I cannot go in these businesses without a mask.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re telling me that I have to breathe in CO2 when God gave this body the ability to extract that from my body, and now you want me to put it back in my body? I have natural rights as a sovereign citizen of the United States.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By continuing to keep people in masks, separated, and out of work with no legitimate cause, you are kneeling on the necks of the people and you are continuing to act in a thuggish manner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guys, it`s over. Like really? Like, you know -- I mean, are we still talking about this?


HAYES: You`re kneeling on the necks. She compared wearing a mass to killing George Floyd. And it`s over. Are we still talking about this? Yes, we`re still talking about it. People are still dying from it. But that`s the view of the White House, that woman`s view.

It`s not just happening in Orange County. Ohio, Ohio is state date has been a relative success story in containing the virus. Republican Governor Mike DeWine has been a leader on the issue. He credited Dr. Amy Acton who`s the health director of the state as a hero for her role. And that included advising Governor DeWine to lock down early, very early, let the state in much better position to reopen.

Dr. Acton has now resigned amid lawsuits pushed by state Republicans to strip her of authority and protest at her home where some people conspicuously carried guns. As The Guardian reports, some demonstrations at the statehouse featured signs bearing anti-Semitic messages that`s comparing her to a Nazi. Again, Acton is Jewish and one lawmaker referenced her with an anti-Semitic slur.

Dr. Amy Acton guided her state through a pandemic. And for that, she became a target for reactionary idiots. Look, it`s a complicated world we live in, a complicated time. It`s not like the experts are all in unison about everything. They`re not. It`s not like this isn`t complicated. There have been mixed messages about the virus and transmission, about mask wearing.

When they told us not to wear masks in February, they were wrong about that. And we`re still processing data and there`s still all sorts of countervailing balances between different kinds of risks, right, with what we`re doing. But we have seen what happens -- if there`s one thing we know, we have seen what happens across the world and in this country when leaders just shove their fingers in their ears and say, I can`t hear you coronavirus.

There`s a real danger of letting politics and political forces overwhelm public health entirely. And we sure as heck should not be punishing health experts and leaders for trying to help us help ourselves to stay safe and healthy.

I`m joined now by the Democratic Governor of Oregon, Kate Brown, who was announced a one-week pause in her states moved to reopen after the Oregon Health Authority reported 178 new confirmed cases, marking the highest daily count in the state since the start of the pandemic.

Governor, it`s great to have you. Can you take me through your thinking in ordering that one week pause?

GOV. KATE BROWN (D-OR): Sure, and it`s good to see you. So we are taking a one week pause in our reopening. We have seen a number of cases in Multnomah County increase. We have not been able to trace all of those cases. We have about 30 percent of those cases that we can`t determine the origin, and we`re seeing an increase in hospitalizations.

So my priority as governor is to make sure I protect the health and safety of Oregonians, so we`re putting a pause on further reopening efforts. I liken it to my experience as a kid. I grew up in the state of Minnesota. We went ice skating in the winter. And after we strapped on our skates, we proceeded cautiously onto the ice. And if the ice started cracking, we stepped back.

And we are right now just holding steady where we`re at. If things look better next week, we`ll continue forward. But for right now, we`re taking a pause.

HAYES: So you just said something very interesting to me. You said, of these new cases in Multnomah, there`s 30 percent of them you can`t trace, which means you have trace 70 percent of them, which means this is the state or the local public health agencies have testing and tracing capacity to sort of track down these chains of transmission?

BROWN: Yes, that`s the goal. We`ve been really fortunate here in Oregon. I implemented early and aggressive physical distancing measures and shuttered our economy. And Oregonians have made tremendous sacrifices. And as a result, we`ve seen a relatively low infection rate.

It`s been a challenge then to get the resources for testing that we need from the federal government, but we`re still working at that. And our local public health is working collaboratively with state public health, to make sure that we have adequate capacity for testing, contact tracing, which really needs to -- these folks really need to reflect the communities that they`re working in.

And obviously, we have to have isolation and quarantine strategies that once folks test positive or come into contact with someone who`s positive, we want them to self-isolate. And folks need help doing that. Sometimes they may need somebody to bring them food, we may need to put them up in a motel. They need support and services to be able to do that safely. And local public house has been a great partner with state public health.

HAYES: Let me ask you about your goal here. I mean, it seems to me we`re a little confused or there are different goals, right? So, if you look at a place like South Korea, place like New Zealand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, even Germany to a certain extent, what they basically gotten to is suppression, right. There very, very few new cases a day. There`s some days with zero cases.

We seem to be sort of like let`s kind of ride it out and we`re just going to trade off or accept a certain amount of community transmission as long as we don`t have a spike like we saw in, say, Louisiana, Michigan, or the New York metro area. What is your goal? How do you think about this? What do you want for Oregon? What is acceptable to you?

BROWN: I think there are a couple of pieces that are really important to me. We honestly want to keep the infection rates down low. And more importantly, we want to protect our most vulnerable communities. That includes our seniors, our elders, particularly those living in long term care facilities.

We want to protect our communities of color. Our African American community, our Latino community, our Native American communities have all been particularly hard hit by this disease. So we want to reduce transmission. We want to make sure that we have an adequate supply of hospital beds in the event of a spike, and we want to protect our health care workers.

We have communities around the state including Eastern Oregon that have very limited capacity in terms of healthcare workers. We want to make sure that we have adequate capacity. But we`re also asking Chris -- I asked Oregonians to be kind and be smart. We`re asking each and every Oregonian to wear a face-covering when they go out in public. And you can see folks have gotten quite creative.


BROWN: This is the State of Oregon seal, on the back, we have Bigfoot and Douglas Fir.

HAYES: That`s beautiful.

BROWN: So, this is a great way for people to protect themselves, neighbors, and essential workers. We all should be wearing face coverings when we go out in public.

HAYES: Yes, particularly kitschy ones with state pride. I think that the most important part of this. Governor Kate Brown of Oregon, thank you so much for your time tonight.

BROWN: Great to see you.

HAYES: I`m joined now by Dr. Kavita Patel, Managing Director of Clinical Transformation at the Engelberg Center for Health Care Reform. She`s a former senior White House adviser. She`s also a primary care physician. What is your reaction when you see those two stories, the story in Ohio and the story in Orange County of essentially this kind of political backlash, these sort of town meetings you would see over like a town zoning proposal, you know, very angry people, that effectively chase public health officials out of their position?

KAVITA PATEL, MANAGING DIRECTOR OF CLINICAL TRANSFORMATION, ENGELBERG CENTER FOR HEALTH CARE REFORM: Well, it`s completely unfortunate and unnecessary, Chris. And honestly, it`s because they`re following the example from the top. I mean, we have, as you pointed out, at our highest levels of leadership. We have people who are just blatantly ignoring a preventable illness. And I emphasize that because all the things you just talked about with the governor, are ways to prevent the deaths that are occurring.

HAYES: Well, but there is also something on the other side of this right, which is, you know, the ultimate total prevention is complete lockdown that work in a lot of places, it brought the epidemic down. I mean, the question we all have now is like how to have something that`s not locked down, that isn`t where we don`t just say, well, we`re just going to accept, you know, 1,000 dead Americans a day or 800 dead Americans a day, and what those trade-offs look like.

And it does seem to me the data increasingly points to masks as a key part of that strategy. There has been mixed messages from public health officials or mixed messages from the WHO, the Surgeon General, other epidemiologist in the beginning saying, don`t worry about masks. The data has showed more and more, I think it`s fair to say clustering around the conclusion that masks really matter. What is your read of that right now?

PATEL: I think it`s as you pointed out, even I was in that category of people in February, who did not think that a large part of this transmission was from aerosolized particles, or something is closest talking. And so now we know that -- and especially as you heard about some of the stories of super spreaders, people inquires or people who are just in conversation in close contact with others who have spread the virus, we now know that masks -- and I emphasize that masks just protect others from you.

So I think that`s why -- and also, not all masks are created equal. The N- 95 masks that I use a health as a healthcare worker, it`s called N-95 because it prevents about 95 percent of small particles like the coronavirus from coming through. And a surgical mask like you see people wearing in kind of everyday kind of health care prevents about 70 percent. And then a homemade face mask or something like what the governor showed you is going to get a lot less. It`s not zero, but it`s not 95 percent, Chris.

And what I think is important is actually putting this in context with the other things, physical distancing, hand hygiene, if I had to emphasize that more than anything, it`s that people are also getting lacks about all of those things combined.

HAYES: Final question for you is about -- you talk about supercenter events. And you know, we have seen -- we`ve seen big outdoor parties. We`ve seen protests around the nation. A lot of protesters were wearing masks but not all. People in close -- in close quarters -- again outdoors, those are caused for some considerable concern.

But given everything we know, an indoor rally, and I don`t know what the plan is, if they`re going to like, do it at half capacity and have people spaced out and maybe require masks, maybe, but a packed indoor facility with people yelling and screaming and cheering next to each without masks, it does sound like a worst case scenario for superspreading event. Is that a fair read of the science?

PATEL: No, that`s not only is it a fair read, but we have evidence that that`s exactly how we`re getting these super spreader events. Whether it was in a choir, in a church, in a -- at a party, we know that this is just a setup for disaster.

And then Chris, if you add into that people who have chronic conditions. We know that obesity and age are also critical factors and doing worse with COVID. And all you need for graphic proof is that recent lung transplant that a patient had in Chicago, where you had a healthy set of lungs that completely went to zero all because of COVID. So, there is enough proof out there. This is not rhetoric. It`s science.

HAYES: Yes. I just, I mean, just have the rallies outside. For the love of God, please. Dr. Kavita Patel, thank you very much. Next, after more than two weeks of nationwide protests following the death of George Floyd, we`re seeing just day by day more and more concrete policy changes. Reverend Dr. William Barber on the work that still needs to be done after this.


HAYES: In the wake of the police killing of Georgia Floyd, there has been this growing tally of concrete action at the state and local government levels around the country. Just today, Louisville Mayor Greg Fischer signed a ban on no-knock search warrants following the police shooting a Breonna Taylor. The three officers involved in the shooting and killing of Taylor remain unarrested or indicted.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed a bill making New York police disciplinary records, just make the disciplinary records public which seems like a natural thing for the first time since 1976. Those have been locked away from our eyes. And San Francisco Mayor London Breed announced the city`s police officers -- this is very interesting -- will no longer respond to calls for help on non-criminal matters, which by the way is in many cities the mass majority of calls. They will instead replaced by trained unarmed professionals.

Last week, Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti announced he would seek to cut up to $150 million in the LAPD budget to reinvestment services for communities of color in that city. Of course, there`s a deeper question about both the local and particularly the federal level and to what extent there`s any sort of change in the attitude of Republicans and whether their recent vows for progress or religious rhetorical.

Just yesterday, the Republican-led Senate Judiciary Committee approved a judicial nominee who has questioned whether voter suppression exists, and who the NAACP says, "will not be a fair and neutral judge on issues paramount for people of color."


SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA): This committee is advancing a judicial nominee with an anti-civil rights record. His record in fact is an antithesis to what the American people are marching for and demanding right now.


HAYES: Joining me now on the phone for more on the push for reform, civil rights leader who`s been leading a multiracial coalition for years out of North Carolina, and now nationally, Reverend Dr. William Barber. He`s co- chair of the Poor People`s Campaign, and National Call for More Revival, author of the new book, We are Called to be a Movement.

Reverend, how much of this do you view at the national level from Republicans who, for instance, voted along at a committee to change Confederate generals names? How much do you think this is lip service, how much do you think there`s real action pushing on Republican politician?

WILLIAM BARBER, CO-CHAIR, POOR PEOPLE`S CAMPAIGN: Well, first, thank you so much for having me on. Those folks in the streets, us that were in the street, and us who`ve been marching and pushing for a long time recognize that we really are calling for a third reconstruction, fundamental reconstruction of America in five areas, systemic racism, systemic poverty, ecological devastation, the war economy, and a false modern edge of religious nationalism.

And you have to do all of those, Chris, if you are serious about dealing with racism and classism and the violence that comes from that. Police violence is one of the violent ways in which public policy destroys the lives of black people, people of color, and white people.

What the politicians some of them want is they just want to do something to get folk out of the streets and end it. They want to just what one little thing can we do to prove we`re not racist without really not being racist, and what one of the things that we do to get people to go home.

And that`s not what`s happening in the street. And I say that to either Democrats who want to just pass a moderate deal or Republicans who want to claim to be anti-racist with their mouth. What they really are, is their anti what happened to George Floyd, they`re anti what happened on camera? If it hadn`t happened on camera, that`s-- the question is, we would not be here. But they are not yet ready for full transformative dealing with racism.

The streets are saying, third reconstruction. The politicians are saying, let`s just do something the least amount we can do to get a claim that we have anti-racist but not really fundamentally shift the system. And that`s where the tension is.

HAYES: So, what then becomes of that? Because we -- you know, we`ve seen -- we`ve seen people in the streets quite a bit actually, as I sort of think back about the last years, people have been in the streets over the last 10 years or so in various forms. The movement that you were part of and lead in Moral Mondays in North Carolina where people were getting arrested in the state capitol, there has been a fair amount of street protests that has produced sort of productive tension in the -- in the kind of tradition of direct action. But what do you see as the next step now?

BARBER: Well, remember that moment that we won. That took us four years, but we beat back every racist voter suppression case they put up. We beat them in court. And now we`re paused to have a brand new election tomorrow Monday. We replaced the governor. We were the only state the block Trump down ticket.

And you know, when you think -- talk in terms of reconstruction, it was never a few weeks. reconstruction always happened for years. And so what I see is this is a kind of -- what you see in the street now. It`s about George Floyd, but it`s also about folks saying I can`t breathe. "I can`t breathe" is the kind of shorthand for how people feel. When the -- when the state is blocking healthcare, "I can`t breathe." When the state is suppressing the vote, "I can`t breathe." When the state is forcing meat workers who are mostly black and brown to go into lethal situations without giving them what they need, "I can`t breathe."

So what we have to do is have what`s happening in the street, but we also have to have mandates and public policy. That`s why on June 20, 2020, you all folks can go to www.June20,2020. The Poor People`s Campaign`s national call for moral revival has called for a mass Poor People`s Assembly moral march on Washington digitally.

Now, we had planned to be on Pennsylvania Avenue and put hundreds of thousands of people in the street. We`re going to do it digitally. But what`s going to happen that day is you`re going to see white coal miners connecting up with black folk from Mississippi who are saying together we are going to fight these five interlocking injustices.

They`re going to show the pain, Chris, but they also are building power and registering people to vote because poor and low wealth people connected together hold the key to political transformation in this country.

HAYES: Let me ask you -- final question for you on exactly that note. You have -- you have worked very long and hard at producing these kinds of multiracial coalitions. You studied the way that they`ve come asunder particularly in the south in the past and trying to stitch them together. What do you make of what we have seen about polling, about public opinion on these matters among white folks, and their participation?

I mean, even as we look at Denver, if you look at the protests, it is very striking immediately and all these protests and how deeply multiracial they are. What`s happening?

BARBER: Well, three things. Number one, they are saying moderation is not acceptable anymore. They`re saying that we have to deal with death in America. I`m doing a sermon at the National Cathedral this Sunday called America Accepting Death is No Longer an Option.

People are saying that public policy kills whether it`s police violence or the lack of health care that kills or the lack of clean water that kills or even voting rights, Chris. When you suppress the right to vote, it`s death. They had a death management because then it allows people to get elected, who then blocked health care, block living wages, and all of those things they block that kills.

You know, Dave Chappelle, I heard him today and he said something, what is all this industry is saying, we`re sick of all of it. We`re sick of all of it. And I think we`re at a place now where people -- and my grandmother, she was the greatest theologian I met and a philosopher. You know what she said, Chris? She said, you scratch a liar and you find the thief.

And what people are finding out is you scratch a racist, you find the anti- union, you find an anti-LGBTQ person, you find an anti-health person, you find an anti-living wage. And so, we`ve seen all this racism and white supremacy at the White House, but people are starting to see racism is targeted at black people, but it also has a class element to it, and that racism ultimately is against the democracy.

And so either we`re going to stand together for life or we`re going to continue to allow these deadly policies to exist. And I think what you`re seeing is this third reconstruction, people are coming together and saying, listen, this is not just a one off, this is not just a little blowing off steam, it`s not the king would say, this is serious business industries in this legislative suite in the voting booth. And I think you`re going to see it not for days and weeks to come, but for years to come.

And I`m glad to see it, by the way, and we`re going to stand with everybody to help make the changes that need to happen. If we don`t have the changes, Chris, God help us. That`s the other side. If we don`t turn these mourns and tears into public policy, then God help us as a nation in the midst of a pandemic, in the midst of all of this outright racism, in the midst of all this economic downturn. If we can`t change now, God help us as a nation.

HAYES: Reverend Dr. William Barber, it`s always great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

BARBER: Thank you, sir.

HAYES: Next, her son`s death proceeded what would become the Black Lives Matter Movement as we know it. Now Sybrina Fulton, the mother of Trayvon Martin has qualified to run for elected office. She joins me to talk about her journey next.



BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If I had a son, he`d look like Trayvon. And, you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we`re going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.


HAYES:  A little more than eight years ago, 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman. It was Zimmerman`s eventual acquittal that helped lead to the formation of the Black Lives Matter movement as an organized rallying cry. And that cry has now essentially become the name of this 21st Century civil rights movement which has grown only stronger, stronger than ever, following the death of George Floyd.

We have seen multiple people in this movement who have engaged in protests and advocacy work, move into politics and seek elected office. Congresswoman Lucy McBath, whose 17-year-old son Jordan Davis was killed in 2012, the same year, also in Florida, she now represents a district in Georgia that includes Atlanta suburbs and she`s seeking a second term in November.

Lesley McSpadden, the mother of Michael Brown, was killed by police in 2014, ran for a seat on the Ferguson City Council in Missouri last year, but came up short. And now Trayvon Martin`s mother is running for office. Sybrina Fulton first announced her campaign for seat on the Miami-Dade Board of County Commissioners last year. This week, she announced she has officially qualified as a candidate and Sybrina Fulton joins me now.

It is great to have you on, Ms. Fulton. I wonder if you could just talk about your decision to run for office, how you came to think that was a path for you?

SYBRINA FULTON, CANDIDATE FOR MIAMI-DADE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS:  I worked for Miami-Dade County, the seat that I`m trying to reach right now, I worked for Miami-Dade County for 20 plus years. And as I did my research to try to decide what seat I felt would be best for me, I decided that I`m a long-time resident of Miami-Dade County. I`m a long-time employee of Miami-Dade County. I have gone to elementary, middle school, high school and college right here in Miami-Dade County. And, so, I`m used to being service to the residents. And so I just felt that that was the best place for me.

A lot of times people go for higher levels, but I just felt like, you know, even though I`m a national figure I felt that my passion belongs right here in Miami-Dade County.

HAYES:  I know that you were at George Floyd`s funeral. And I can imagine how difficult that was for you. And I wonder how you deal with being involved in this struggle when the trauma and emotional pain of it must be extremely present in your life.

FULTON:  Absolutely. Sometimes I have to take time out, you know, just for myself, just to grieve other people`s death. Sometimes I find the similarities with what has happened and some of the things that happened with Trayvon, with Eric Garner with, you know, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Jordan (inaudible), Dante Hamilton, Oscar Grant, like I find the similarities and sometimes I just have to be quiet, I have to grieve in my own time and come out in my own time and decide to talk.

It took me a minute for me to even talk about Arbery, Ahmaud Arbery`s death, because Trayvon was minding his own business as well and he was walking through a neighborhood, this young man was jogging through a neighborhood, and people can think they can take the law into their own hands.

And so now I`m just -- I`m just grateful that people are able to see what we have as African-Americans been complaining about for quite some time.

HAYES:  What do you think about the moment we live in now, the phrase Black Lives Matter I think was first posted as a kind of rallying cry in the wake of the acquittal of George Zimmerman, it has become the name for this movement that is the most vibrant social movement of recent memory, I think. I mean, we have seen the most sustained and widespread protests in a very long time. What do you think is happening right now?

FULTON:  I think people are more aware. I think the complaints that African-Americans have been having like other people have actually saw it because -- because of the video. I think this has happened so many times but we didn`t have a video. And so now that we have video, it`s picked up momentum because you actually are seeing a young man being killed by the police right in front of your face. And once you see that, you can`t take it back. It tugs at your heart, it tugs at your mind and you say something is wrong. They did not treat him as a human being.

We all should be treated as a human being, regardless of your race, your religion, your sexual orientation, regardless of any of those things, you should be treated as a human being.

And so we have to get back to the basics, Chris.

HAYES:  Final question for you. I think I had seen some discussion of your ideas policy-wise on the county commission. There has been this call to defund the police in response to police abuse. It`s a long standing call, it`s not just in the wake of George Floyd. But I wonder how you think about reform and what you think about the phrase?

FULTON:  Well, I actually think something has to be done. We cannot have police with the authority to just kill somebody and take somebody`s life so nonchalantly as if his life didn`t have value. And we need to value everybody`s life.

But I think that before you defund the police departments, we need to look at other areas that might be able to help the police department do what they need to do like social services, like parks and rec, to get our young people off the street. And then also you need to make sure the police have the proper training. You need to make sure that they understand that you can say something and you can speak out if something is not going right. We have to know right from wrong, even police officers.

And so now we have come into an end where we have to determine who is policing the police. And so we got to make sure that that`s in place. Before we move forward with anything, we have to make sure that that`s in place. If they need counseling, then we need to give them counseling. If they have drug or alcohol problems, we need to address those issues.

And then we need to make sure that they have some type of sensitivity training, because we cannot have a life being taken as if it has no value. Every life has a value.

HAYES:  Sybrina Fulton, the mother of Trayvon Martin, now a candidate for county commissioner of Miami-Dade, thank you so much for making some time for us.

FULTON:  Thank you, Chris.

HAYES:  Coming up, the Trump administration just announced the public has no right to know who they`re bailing out with half a trillion dollars in business relief loans. Luckily for the public, Congresswoman Katie Porter is on the case and she joins me ahead.


HAYES:  The federal government`s economic response to the Coronavirus and the shutdowns has drawn critiques from across the ideological spectrum. And a lot of them have been pretty on the money, right. There is a lack of transparency. There are a lot of misaligned incentives between different programs. There`s been some really not so great administration of those programs.

All that said, lost amid all of it is something pointed out in a great opinion piece in Buzzfeed news by Tom Gara, a guy I think very highly of. In a lot of ways, things have been pretty damn good. A huge amount of money has been pumped into the system.

Get this, household income -- this is crazy -- actually went up in April. And personal savings spiked to its highest level in April -- all that because of the money that was pushed into people`s bank accounts and pockets. But, Tom Gara points out the economy right now is like a jumbo jet that`s in a steady glide after both its engines flamed out. It`s about -- in about six weeks it will likely crash into the side of a mountain.

Much of the stuff that is helping people out is going to expire, and some of it is going to will expire very soon. A federal law, for instance, that bans evictions on properties that are federally backed mortgages, which is a good idea, that expires on July 25. The extra $600 a week Americans get in unemployment payments, which has been a key part of this, that will end on July 31.

Student loan payments start again at the beginning of October. And the more than four million homeowners who received a six month pause on their mortgage will need to start making payments again at the end of the October.

And the irony is if all that happens, particularly the stuff happening in October -- think about the timing there, right -- if all that happens and people feel that hit and the recovery stalls, it would be terrible for the country, number one, it would also be terrible for Donald Trump who is the incumbent president and who has been using the relief bill in his latest campaign ad to get re-elected, ending all the stuff that`s in the bill that is helping people would be terrible for him politically as the incumbent president running for re-election.

But to their great credit, Democrats in congress are the ones pushing at every step for more money, more support, more relief for Americans. They just passed trillions of dollars in new relief in a house bill called the Heroes Act even though if they are successful, it will likely politically benefit the president, which is to say they are doing the right thing, and that is how it should be.

But do not for a second think the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell with a Democratic president in the White House right now, that he would not be throwing an anchor to the drowning economy.

We have seen this before. He said it was his job to make sure President Barack Obama would be a one term president. When the economy was in shambles in 2009 he pushed against that era`s much, much, much smaller stimulus package. And when Republicans took over the House in 2011, they played an absolutely insane game of chicken with the debt ceiling, all goaded on by Mitch McConnell, that threatened the U.S. to default on the global economy and then it instilled rigid austerity that slowed the recovery and made life miserable for millions.`

Which is just a crazy thing that we have, one party willing to govern in the public interests at a time. That party is by no means perfect, but that is the case. And then there is one that is not. That`s it.

I mean, get this, even Joe Biden is currently campaigning to spend trillions more to help the economy right now, six months before Donald Trump will run for re-election and be boosted if the economy is good.

All that said, the way the Trump administration has been going about this relief and who is getting it is pretty dodgy. And this week, they tried to tell us we cannot know where hundreds of billions of dollars worth of public money went. Well, we are going to talk to someone fighting for transparency and oversight on that very issue next.


HAYES:  Back when the massive Coronavirus rescue package was passed, there were a bunch of Democrats raising concerns that there was not enough transparency requirements in the bill for the money the government would be lending or just giving businesses.

The Trump administration, though, played hardball on that point. They seemed to care about keeping the money free from transparency almost more than anything else in those negotiations. And while there were some concessions they basically won and now we`re reaping the reward.

Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin said on Wednesday they will not be releasing any information whatsoever about the specific borrowers in the federal government`s $500 billion rescue line to the Paycheck Protection Program.


STEVE MNUCHIN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY:  As it relates to the names and amounts of specific PPP loans, we believe that that`s proprietary information. And in many cases for sole proprietaries and small businesses, is confidential information.


HAYES:  Government watchdogs and Democrats in congress are not having it. Congresswoman Katie Porter tweeting out, quote, as a law professor I give Mnuchin`s argument an F and Congresswoman Katie Porter, Democrat of California joins me now.

All right, I`m going to start off this interview, congresswoman, by confessing to being a bit confused. And I have covered this really closely, but I am confused.

So, there was a bunch of money for -- there was like half a trillion for big businesses, which was going to be a Fed lending facility. And then that stuff didn`t really ever get used, because the Fed bailed them out. So we`re not talking about that.

The transparency issue isn`t on the big corporation side, even though that was what I think we all anticipated it would be, is that correct?

REP. KATIE PORTER, (D) CALIFORNIA:  Well, we have transparency issues on both programs, not surprisingly, given it`s the secretary of the Treasury here who is creating the transparency problems at both points.

But you`re absolutely correct that with regard to half a trillion dollars, that`s where we put into the law some distinctive mechanisms, most notably the congressional oversight commission, and that commission is currently awaiting a chairperson. But what we`re talking about today, and what secretary Mnuchin was talking about, is about the Paycheck Protection Program, the PPP, a $650 billion lifeline for our small businesses in which the secretary is refusing to give us the necessary information so to ensure that program is working and working fairly.

HAYES:  All right, so I guess the argument, as I understand it,which I will make to you and you can tell me why it gets an F, is if you are talking about say like a car-washing place in Irvine, California, where you are, or a cafe, that if you knew what the loan was, you would essentially know what their overhead is, what their rent and their payroll roughly is, and that would, I don`t know, help you competitively some way if you want to like buy out the car wash I guess? Is that the argument?

As I try to make it, I`m stumbling, but I think that`s the argument.

PORTER:  Yeah, you sound like one of my students who`s struggling his way towards an F.

So, no, there are at least five reasons why the argument the secretary made is incorrect. First, the traditional SBA loans, the 7A loans, already have to be disclosed. So there`s lots of precedent for disclosing Small Business Administration loans.

And two, the PPP application itself, the application that small business owners filled out, clearly stated that it would be disclosed, the amount of the loan, the terms of the loans, all of these things, so borrowers here have no expectation of privacy. Third, the size of the PPP program is unprecedented. This is a tremendous amount of government expenditure, this is the largest small business program in our country`s history. Fourth, there are already numerous examples of abuse of the PPP program. We saw this with Ruths Chris. We saw this with Steak Shake, with others.

And then the PPP`s implementation has been plagued by inequities, different states not given the same amount of resources, minority owned businesses, the smallest, most vulnerable businesses not getting help. This is why, these five reasons, debunk the secretary of the Treasury`s argument. And it`s why Senator Kamala Harris and I are calling on the Treasury to disclose this information.

HAYES:  So it seems to be when there was a raft of stories about big -- what you would think of large businesses using PPP, right, and that being abused, did the Trump administration and Treasury Mnuchin just be like we`re going to stop doing that because we don`t want those -- it seems to me like they basically said we don`t want more stories like that, so you got -- we just won`t tell you.

PORTER:  Well, I think there`s two things to note. The first is the use of the word stories. These things came to light because of journalists, because of reporting, and yet the secretary of the Treasury is refusing to respond to information requests from news outlets across the spectrum and across the country who are seeking information to find out about those very same kinds of abuses. So that`s the first thing you will notice.

The second thing to know is that I don`t actually think we actually have any information to suggest the Treasury didn`t anything here, but rather that the businesses themselves, when the stories came out, decided to give the money back voluntarily. I don`t have any insight that Treasury itself has been doing any oversight at all, and that`s what concerns me.

HAYES:  Let me make another argument which is related to that, which is basically that there was a kind of like there was a PPP shaming that was happening, which I understood the impulse of, but also if the idea of the program was it`s not a subsidy for the business so much as it`s a subsidy for the payroll, right, like we want to keep people attached to their employer. We want to keep these businesses afloat, if it`s the Atlanta Ritz-Carlton, it`s the Atlanta Ritz-Carlton I don`t care, they employ people. They should keep going.

That like you would create the dynamic of shaming would end up having negative effects on these businesses as they try to like emerge out into the reopened economy.

PORTER:  That`s absolutely true that big corporations are also big employers. And that means that companies of all different sizes might need help during this economic recession, during this pandemic. But we wouldn`t necessarily put the same conditions on all different kinds of businesses. And the reality is these are not loans, these are forgivable loans, in essence free money. And so it`s entirely appropriate for the government to take steps to protect taxpayer dollars, to be an appropriate fiscal watchdog, and make sure companies are not just taking free money to do who knows what with, but that they`re actually taking this money and using to in fact keep people on payroll. And we can`t do that oversight if we don`t know what businesses received the loans.

HAYES:  Right, because you can`t actually check up on the work if they actually kept the people.

PORTER:  Absolutely. And we know we have a sky-high unemployment rate, so we need to be able to figure out is this program working? What business and what industries is it working for? And that`s why I have a bill called the Paycheck Protection Program Transparency Act that would give us exactly this data that we need to do appropriate oversight.

HAYES:  All right, Congresswoman Katie Porter, thank you so much for being here.

PORTER:  Thank you.

HAYES:  That is all for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.