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Trump shutdown proposal. TRANSCRIPT: 1/22/2019, All In w. Chris Hayes.

Guests: Tim Kaine, Omar Jadwat, Michelle Goldberg, Rick Wilson, Charles Homans, Jose Andres, Sean Patrick Maloney

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: January 22, 2019 Guest: Tim Kaine, Omar Jadwat, Michelle Goldberg, Rick Wilson, Charles Homans, Jose Andres, Sean Patrick Maloney

NICK SANDMANN, JUNIOR, COVINGTON CATHOLIC HIGH SCHOOL: I don`t -- my position is that I was not disrespectful to Mr. Philips. I respect him. I`d like to talk to him. I mean, in hindsight, I wish we could have walked away and avoided the whole thing.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: And that`s HARDBALL for now. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.



DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am proud to shut down the government.

HAYES: 32 days into the Trump shutdown.


HAYES: A Stephen Miller sneak attack.

MILLER: I should say, I am shocked.

HAYES: Tonight, Donald Trump`s latest attempt at a bait and switch.

TRUMP: I`ll take all the heat you want.

HAYES: And the answer to that burning question.


HAYES: Plus, Chef Jose Andres on his mission to feed federal employees in crisis. And as the President`s lawyer obfuscates --

RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: We have all the tapes in our possession.

HAYES: The growing calls for House Democrats to start public hearings yesterday.

MICHAEL ISIKOFF, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, YAHOO! NEWS: Congress has its own duty to get to the facts and act on them.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. It is now day 32 of the Trump shut down. And with millions of Americans continued to suffer, Donald Trump is once again demonstrating why he has overseen the longest shutdown in U.S. history. Because it is impossible to negotiate in good faith with the President of the United States.

On Saturday, you`ll remember, the President offered what he billed as a compromise the end of the shutdown. It was to put a gently a non-starter. For one, Trump negotiated the deal not what the Democrats need to win over but rather with his own vice president and his own son-in-law who he hired to work in the White House.

In exchange for billions for his border wall that Mexico was going to pay for, Trump offered only temporary protections for a subset of immigrants that the Trump administration itself is put into legal limbo. So it was not a good deal. In fact, it would have encouraged Trump to take hostages in the future. But at the very least it had at least the veneer of being a compromise. Only now we know the truth. It wasn`t a compromise, it was more like a scam.

Last night, Senate Republicans posted the Trump-approved legislative text that they plan to vote on this Thursday. And in addition to what Trump promised, it included radical provisions that he conveniently forgot to mention that would drastically restrict asylum. After reading the bill, conservative legal writer Gabriel Malor wrote that this will and should get zero votes from Democrats. Malor adding this is not the compromise that Trump described.

The plan cooked up by Trump or more likely his hardline advisor Stephen Miller would bar children from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras from seeking asylum in the United States. Instead, they`d have to apply for asylum for abroad. There is no system set up for them to do that. And the new rules would potentially require these children to continue to live among the violence that they are so desperately trying to escape. And that is just one of the hardline new limits on asylum that the President is now demanding in order to reopen the government to pay for the wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.

Now, we have seen this thing before. The shutdown only began because Trump changed his mind at the last minute and said he wouldn`t sign a bill to keep the government open that had passed the Senate with wide bipartisan support. And remember early last year when he made this promise?


TRUMP: You are not that far away from comprehensive immigration reform. And if you wanted to go that final step, I think you should do it. This group and others from the Senate from the House comes back with an agreement, I`m signing it. I mean, I will be signing it. I`m not going to say, oh gee, I want this or I want that. I`ll be signing it.


HAYES: There`s that day. We all saw it. That was broadcast on live television. Come back with the deal, I`m signing it. I`m not going to say, oh gee, I want this, I want that. And then they came back with an agreement and Trump would not sign it. Instead, the White House tried to ram through a Stephen Miller fever dream to restrict illegal immigration to its lowest level since the 1920s.

Meanwhile, we`re more than a month into Trump shut down. The bad news just keeps coming. Today, FBI agent said the shutdown was hampering counterterrorism and sex trafficking probes. The Transportation Safety Administration is now pleading for backup workers around the country and the breadlines for federal workers are growing in Washington beyond.

Democrats desperately want to find a way to get the government back on track but they`re dealing with the president who simply is not a trustworthy partner. You cannot make a deal with him because he will hide the truth and he will lie and he will change his mind over and over again. And that is why we are suffering through the longest shutdown in history. And that is why when it comes to immigration, in particular, the only way to deal with this president is to defeat him.

Joining me now former vice presidential candidate and current Democratic Senator from Virginia Tim Kaine. Senator, can you make a deal with this president? Do you agree that the bad faith is so pernicious it makes it essentially impossible to strike any kind of deal on immigration?

SEN. TIM KAINE (D), VIRGINIA: Chris, up to today, this president has shown a fantastic ability to blow up a deal and no ability to make a deal, and especially no ability to make a deal with Democrats. He doesn`t even want to talk to us or take our views into account. But now he`s got to deal with the Democratic House and a strong unified Democratic Party in the Senate.

HAYES: So what is going on now? We`ve got these two votes that are happening on Thursday. One of them is the proposal the President laid out which has huge restrictions to asylum, no permanent reprieve for folks in TPS and DACA and the other is just a clean continuing resolution that would open the government until February 8th. How do you understand these two votes?

KAINE: Well, Chris, I`ll tell you what should happen. We should reject the President`s proposal if it`s just jammed down our throat with no chance to adjust it or change it, but put it in committee where we could have a hearing about it and offer amendments to it. And we should pass the bill just opening government to February 8th to give us the opportunity to dialogue about and improve the Trump proposal.

That`s what I hope we`ll do on Thursday. Reject the Trump proposal but put it in committee to improve it and make it better, reopen government. I was at the -- I was at the food -- the restaurant today that Jose Andres has opened for federal employees. It`s a cold day in Washington and it looks like the breadline out of the depression. People standing out waiting in the cold to get their soup or sandwich, but we`re not in a depression.

The White House says the economy is great and the stock market is great so why are people waiting in a bread line like during the depression? It`s because of this president. We can fix that on Thursday.

HAYES: So I want to -- I want to be clear on this. So you said -- your preference is Senate votes to reopen the government on February 8th, you move the president proposal through a normal committee process, amendments and changes.

KAINE: Absolutely.

HAYES: But here`s the problem. We`ve been through this rodeo twice now. You guys struck a big deal. It was the grand bargain. Funding for the wall, DACA reprieve, he tore it up and he wanted immigration restrictions that would be the most onerous since 1920. Now he comes out he says I`ve made a deal with myself and my vice-president and my son-in-law. Here Democrats enjoy. And in the fine print are these massive restrictions to asylum, changes to asylum. Won`t that just happen again? Do you see my point here?

KAINE: No, I get that.

HAYES: Can you deal with him? Can you deal with him.

KAINE: I get you. I get you. Well, look, it`s less dealing with him and it`s more dealing with each other. In Congress, we have to deal with each other. The four elements of the President`s proposal, border security, DREAMers, Temporary Protected Status, asylum, these are all issues that we can talk about and try to find some accord on. And what we need to do is be willing to be an Article One branch and act and then the House would have to act. The President is going to decide what he`s going to do.

What I object to you, Chris, is when the majority leader says we can`t act as the -- as the Congress unless the President says mother may I No, we got to act and do what we think is right. We put the bill on his desk. If he vetoes it, then we`re going to focus on overriding the veto. But we need to stop letting his tweet, his eye roll, his every whim stop the article one branch from doing what Congress should do.

HAYES: So final question is this. My understanding is McConnell is holding these two votes because he thinks they`ll both fail, right? He`s given -- he`s given the Republicans something to vote for so they can all say I voted to open the government and he thinks that the clean is going to fail. And then aren`t we just back to square one? Am I missing something?

KAINE: If you are right, we are back to square one. But I think there`s going to be enormous pressure for Republicans to vote Yes on the February 8th version as long as they believe Democrats will in earnest engage with them in a discussion about these topics. Again, set the president aside. These are important topics. And I think we can find with like-minded colleagues some bipartisan paths forward. What the President will do, who knows what he`ll do. Rather than worry about it, let`s do our job and he can figure it out.

HAYES: All right, Senator Tim Kaine, thank you for making some time.

KAINE: Absolutely, Chris.

HAYES: And joining me now is the Director of the ACLU`s Immigrant Rights Project Omar Jadwat. Omar, when you read the legislative taxes, it was published online last night. What was your reaction?

OMAR JADWAT, DIRECTOR, ACLU`S IMMIGRANT RIGHTS PROJECT: I mean, this is no kind of compromise. There is -- there is a wish list here of anti- immigrant proposals, gutting asylum protections, specifically cutting protection for kids from Central America out of our Asylum system. We`ve never done anything like that to you know, single out a particular group from a situation that I think even the administration would recognize is incredibly violent.

HAYES: So it would -- it would create a situation which there`s American asylum law for everyone in the world and then there`s a special Asylum law for Central Americans.

JADWAT: Children.

HAYES: Children.


HAYES: Where they can`t apply in the way that everyone else can.

JADWAT: That`s right. And that there`s numerical caps on how many people can get it and there`s no judicial review at all, no ability to say you got it wrong. It`s up to a bureaucrat who`s sitting in that country to decide whether or not you get asylum. It`s a radical change to our asylum law and one that would set a precedent, right, that brings us right back to where we were before we passed the refugee act in the first place.

We recognized we made a mistake, right, in the World War II era when we turned ships around they came to our shores.

HAYES: Children, I will note.

JADWAT: Because --

HAYES: Loads of children fleeing the Nazis.

JADWAT: You know, ethnic and racial prejudice and we decided we weren`t going to go down that road of saying this group of people can get asylum, this group of people can`t. If you meet the statutory standard, if you can show that you have a well-founded fear of persecution, you get asylum in this country. That`s an important thing that we shouldn`t be turning our backs on.

HAYES: Well, do you -- from your perspective, is there continuity between what happened the last time on the last deal on this deal, because in which you have a deal that`s on the things that are on the table, border security, TPS, DACA, and then this other agenda pushed into the --

JADWAT: I mean, the goal posts, right, not just moved but totally reset, right? Now we`re talking about a whole set of things that weren`t even mentioned in the President`s speech when he supposedly introduced this so- called compromise. And so we`re in a -- we`re in a different place and you know, with all respect to the Senator, I don`t think there`s enough lipstick you know, that you can put on this pig --

HAYES: That`s your feeling about what`s on the table in that legislative time?

JADWAT: It`s -- yes, it`s really you know -- and even the protections that claims to be offering for people who currently have TPS or DACA, you know, are hollow, they`re narrow. They`re going to leave people out and they`re going to slam the door on people going forward in the future. It`s a -- it`s really backwards.

HAYES: I`ll ask you the same question I asked the Senator. Can any deal ever be made with this president on this issue?

JADWAT: I don`t -- you know, I honestly don`t know.

HAYES: Your eyes. I saw your eyes. I think professionally I`m supposed to not say no.

JADWAT: We have a real problem with this administration and their ability or inability to deal in good faith on these questions. I think that`s clear to anybody who`s paying any attention even just to the last few days much less if you go back to February and you go back before that, right? And so it`s a real problem but you know, we have to find a way out of it eventually.

HAYES: Omar Jadwat, thank you for being with me tonight. Now, I want to bring an MSNBC Contributor Michelle Goldberg, Columnist of the New York Times and Republican Strategist Rick Wilson, Author of the book Everything Trump Touches Dies. The -- my favorite detail from today -- one of the things that makes this entire thing particularly absurd is the extensible crisis on the border, but of course all of the functions of government that would monitor that are working without pay.

Today, a report, the State Department has just had to cancel this big international conference on border security and preventing WMD across borders due to the shutdown over yes, border security. Michelle?

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: Right. And of course, we`re not -- we`re not paying -- you know, we`re not paying the FBI, we`re not paying law enforcement. The whole thing is preposterous and I`m really disappointed by how people are talking. I mean, including to some extent you know, Senator cane but also the media in general about how they`re talking about what Trump has offered. It`s really not a compromise. What it is, is a sort of upping the ante right?

Like, first he asks for five something billion dollars for a wall. And then he says, well, what if I throw in huge new restrictions on asylum and more prison beds? Like you know, that`s not a compromise.

HAYES: Right. Some other things that I want.

GOLDBERG: Right. I mean, it`s kind of a continuation of the status quo but worse.

HAYES: So someone likened it to working out a deal with your roommate to lower the rent and then taking that to the landlord. Like that`s not the way it works. That`s not who you`re negotiating with. And there`s also -- I think, Rick, there`s to me the pernicious fingerprints of Stephen Miller on this --


HAYES: -- it in the way that he is opposed, he wants to reduce immigration, unauthorized authorized legal in every possible way because he has concerns about the demographic integrity of the current majority in the country and that`s fundamentally what`s driving this.

WILSON: At some point, Stephen Miller`s hand appears in every immigration deal that this White House has had.

HAYES: Exactly.

WILSON: Remember, the Democrats offered him $25 billion for a wall if they would do DACA and President Miller decided that wasn`t going to be what he wanted. And there`s something deeply wrong with Stephen Miller. I think we can all acknowledge that. And you know, maybe someday he`ll have a relationship with a live human woman and this guy with something will straighten out his mind.

HAYES: Well, I don`t know if that has anything to do with it.

WILSON: But until then, he`s going to continue to be in this bizarre like hostility to anybody who`s like -- who`s -- who comes to this -- wants to come to this country. The guy is just a dark and weird figure and he wrecks Trump`s idea that Trump is this master negotiator and so we have like the short of the deal here every day where this thing goes crazy and off the rails. Every time Trump you know, speaks about, it gets less likely that he`s going to get what he wants.

At this point you know, the motivations for the Democrats to compromise are basically zero. They`ve offered nothing of substance and stopping Donald Trump from doing this is --stopping them from doing this it has become something that the Democratic base will not tolerate you know, paying for this guy`s wall.

HAYES: Well, it`s also the fact that when you do things like this, then you make it impossible negotiate right? I mean, when everyone got the bill text last night and everyone literally across the ideological spectrum lawyers who know this and we`re reading him like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what`s all this asylum stuff? No one ever said anything about this. It`s like you can`t negotiate with that, Michele.

GOLDBERG: Right. And I don`t think it`s clear that he ultimately wants a negotiation settlement, right?

HAYES: That`s a good point.

GOLDBERG: I mean, if he wanted any of this he would have done it when he had all of the leverage of a Republican-controlled House.

HAYES: That`s right.

GOLDBERG: I mean, what he wants is to kind of do some sort of dominance move with regards to Nancy Pelosi and then possibly get something that he can talk about in his re-election bid. But he has no interest in coming to any sort of good-faith compromise.

HAYES: Well, and he`s also in a situation, Rick, which he`s been you know, the Times wrote a good piece on this. This is sort of an M.O. for him, right? Stiffing people that he could be paying and kind of walking away from things and basically just using the fact that he cares more about winning and less about shame or the material conditions than the counterparty to basically just say yes, you`re going to have to take me to court to get your money or whatever.

In this case there`s no court that see this is the thing we`re in. There`s nothing to force him back to make a good-faith offer.

WILSON: But, Chris, I disagree somewhat with that because there is a court and that`s the court of public opinion. And Donald Trump`s numbers are crashing out including with people in his own base because they see the victims of this shutdown as people that look a lot like them. They`re -- you know, these government employees, the 800,000 government employees that are right now on their -- you know, going into their month -- their first full month of not getting paid look a lot like the middle-class folks that the Trump seizes his base.

HAYES: Right.

WILSON: And so, I think he`s starting to pay a price for that politically with folks that should be supporting him and he`s certainly paying a price for the rest of countries already like deeply opposed to shut down. And you`re right. Trump has no shame. He lacks the gene for shame but occasionally he will get forced into a box where he`s forced to do something. And because right now, look there`s only going to be a certain number of more days where these Border Patrol guys are going to be able to say, well, someone could gas and my truck to show up for work.

HAYES: That is also a good point because they are also working without pay right now. Michelle Goldberg and Rick Wilson, thank you both for being with me. Next, as he has admitted on camera, Donald Trump owns the longest government shutdown in history. But the man perhaps most responsible for reopening the government is only now coming out of hiding. We`ll take a long look at what`s Mitch McConnell`s up to in two minutes.


HAYES: It appears to me that the only person in Washington D.C. more shameless than Donald Trump is Mitch McConnell. Remember last month, McConnell literally warned the President right into a microphone into cameras and said flat-out a government shutdown was not a good idea.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I think a government shutdown is not a good option. That`s my view. The American people don`t like it. I don`t know how many times you remember my favorite country saying there`s no education in the second kick of a mule. We`ve been down this path before and I don`t believe we`ll go down this path again.


HAYES: Then the shutdown happened and Mitch McConnell just disappeared almost as if he wasn`t going to let himself get kicked. At anytime during the shutdown, of course, McConnell could have allowed it well, at least since January a lot of Senate vote on any of the nine Democratic proposals in the House to reopen the government. Instead, he called them "pointless show votes."

And now the President has worked how to deal with himself to end the government shutdown, McConnell has decided he`s going to vote on a bill similar to the President`s. The New York Times magazine profile McConnell explains things this way. "The shutdown distilled the essence of McConnell`s position in Trump`s Washington. A man of institutions and establishments whose own legacy was now tied to that of a president who seems hell-bent on burning both to the ground."

Joining me now, the author that great peace New York Times Magazine Politics Editor Charles Homans. Charles, great piece. Really good. Really good. Here`s my theory. I want you to respond. I think McConnell is the closest Trump has to a Dick Cheney that exists.

CHARLES HOMANS, POLITICS EDITOR, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: I think that`s a plausible theory. I mean, I think that he -- they`ve had a sort of curiously symbiotic relationship so far during the Trump`s time in office where he`s enabled a lot of what McConnell has wanted to get done for a very time. And McConnell in many ways has sort of buttressed his own you know, Trump`s own ambitions which he did not have very clear sense of how he was going to pursue once he was office.

HAYES: Yes. That`s what I mean by the shady analogy. He`s ruthless. He has an agenda. There are things that Mitch McConnell really believes in and wants to see happen, unfettered corporate speech and money, huge stockpiling of judges, right? He wants those things. He`s determined to get them, and he knows enough about government whereas Trump does not.

HOMANS: Yes. I think that`s exactly it. In many ways, McConnell is a real virtuoso legislator who`s been at this for a very long time and has really mastered -- really the only person I think who`s fully mastered how to operate in the Senate as it exists now which is of course largely a you know, function of the way that he --

HAYES: Created it.

HOMANS: Exactly. And so I think that he knows how to get things done. I mean, the judges are a great example of how he sort of worked around the Senate that he and I think most people now assume really is not capable of passing much in the way of laws that are not wildly uncontroversial.

HAYES: Yes. Your point about him understanding better than anyone. He created that world and he understands it. We even saw Tim Kaine in the first block talking about well, we can come together and negotiate. That`s not McConnell`s thing. This is him talking about the decision to sort of block the nominee whoever it was when Justice Scalia died.

And we asked McConnell how he felt about his legacy, Trump is being so closely linked, he rejected the premise. I don`t think so. I think the most consequential call I made was before President Trump came to the office. The decision not to fill a Scalia vacancy, I think that`s the most consequential thing I`ve ever done. It was quintessential McConnell. It was enormous departure from norms, massive hardball, but he just didn`t care.

HOMANS: I think that`s right. I mean, I think that he you know, he has his arguments for why it was not a departure but I think many people would disagree with those arguments and I think that both he and his detractors would now agree that this was something that really is sort of a Rubicon. I don`t -- it`s hard for me to imagine this rule not holding for any future president. I mean, it`s really hard to see how anybody gets on the Supreme Court. You know, they`re -- anything other than a majority rule circumstances at this plant.

HAYES: Yes. There`s going to be no more divided rule nominees.

HOMANS: Right, yes. It`s hard to imagine -- I think hard to imagine that happening or you know, there will be arguments for why that shouldn`t happen.

HAYES: Where did you see his role now in this shutdown?

HOMANS: I mean, it`s interesting because he very much has tried to stay out of the glare of cameras on this.

HAYES: He hasn`t been -- you can`t find him.

HOMANS: Right. And it`s interesting because if you look back at other moments and he`s pointed I think justifiably to the role that he played in defusing some of these things during the Obama years. But obviously those were totally different circumstances. There was a sort of Nixon goes to China aspect of him negotiating with Joe Biden in 2013. He can correctly point to having gotten a lot for conservatives that you know, people from the Tea Party winning of the party who were not as tactically savvy about these things. You know, things that they you know, they would not have been able to get.

But now it`s not the case. The President is the problem. He knows the President is the problem even if he can`t really say it out loud.

HAYES: He knows it. That`s the thing that`s so remarkable watching this. He`s on camera saying don`t do this.

HOMANS: Right.

HAYES: And what his amazing ability to me is to be able to come out in front of the cameras 40 days later and act like he never said the first time.

HOMANS: Yes, and I think that you know --

HAYES: Its` a Mitch McConnell superpower.

HOMANS: He also negotiated at least a temporary solution to this with Ryan before Ryan left office. So he`s -- and you know, the main thing the change that made that not a viable solution was Trump`s decision to demand the wall. So he knows that and I think he knows that there`s not a really good way out of this. But at the same time, it`s an interesting situation where I think his sort of partisan loyalties and his constitutional loyalties are in a pretty interesting point of conflict.

HAYES: We always know which one of those two wins. Charles Homans, thanks for joining us.

HOMANS: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: Coming up, as the Mueller probe continues in relative silence, when will House Democrats start public hearings? I`ll talk to one of the newest members of the Intelligence Committee about their strategy next.


HAYES: Much will be off-limits when Michael Cohen testifies before the House Oversight Committee on February 7th according to two Republican Committee members. In a letter to Cohen`s attorney, Congressman Jim Jordan and Mark Meadows say they were told by Cohen`s media advisor Lanny Davis that Cohen`s testimony will exclude any matter under investigation. Who knows if that`s true. It would include both the Russia probe and the campaign finance crimes investigated by federal prosecutors in New York.

And if it is true, it means the Cohen hearings wouldn`t produce any new answers to the urgent questions swirling around for months about whether the President of the United States broke the law to get elected and whether he has continued to do so in office. Lawmakers like to say they`re waiting to see what Robert Mueller comes up with. That they don`t want to step on investigator`s toes. But as investigative reporter Michael Isikoff pointed out on last night`s show, there is no historical precedent for that kind of approach.


ISIKOFF: When Sam Ervin held the Senate Watergate hearings, did he ask Archibald Cox`s permission to hold those hearings? When Peter Rodino began impeachment hearings on Richard Nixon, did he ask for Leon Jaworski`s permission to do so? No, because everybody accepted that Congress had a job to do. We`re now going to see whether Elijah Cummings, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, will step up to the plate and do their job here, and that means public hearings, not behind closed doors.

HAYES: Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney is a Democrat from New York and one of the newest members of the House Intelligence Committee, what do you -- let`s start with the basic thrust of what Michael said last night, which I happen to agree with, the need for public, transparent hearings. What do you think of that?

REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY, (D) NEW YORK: Well, I think it`s obviously a terrific idea where it`s appropriate. I don`t think you`re going to see any of those chairman shrink from their responsibilities. But I think the number one goal I know particularly on the intelligence committee is also to return a level of seriousness and professionalism to the conduct of these proceedings, which has been in short supply under Republican control where it descended into this partisan circus.

But there are public hearings scheduled with Michael Cohen in front of the oversight committee, that`s already on the calendar. The committees are just getting constituted this week. I think you`ll see very aggressive oversight by this new Democratic majority, and it`s long overdue.

HAYES: You said you agreed, quote, where appropriate. What is the where appropriate caveat to your mind?

MALONEY: Well, because -- particularly with respect to the intelligence committee, there`s naturally going to be an opportunity in closed session to discuss highly classified or sensitive materials, which we know are central to a lot of these investigations, and I think what you`ll see is the new chairman absolutely committed to transparency, but also you`ll see him take seriously his responsibilities to protect the United States and to conduct the committee with the seriousness and professionalism that it used to have.

But nobody`s pulling any punches on congressional oversight. I guarantee you, there are a lot of Democratic chairman and chairwoman up here who are ready to go and provide the kind of oversight this administration desperately needs.

HAYES: It`s not a question of pulling punches to me, it`s more about publicness versus behind closed doors. So in the intelligence committee, obviously, all of that has been behind closed doors. We now know that there are transcripts, obviously, but the committee chair, Adam Schiff, has said he`s going to move to share them with Robert Mueller, but shouldn`t those be made public as well?

MALONEY: If you`re talking about the transcripts, I think what you`re going to see is an orderly process there to make sure there`s no disclosure of secrets or confidential information.

Look, nobody in the new Democratic majority is going to do anything to hide the ball. The only thing we`re going to take seriously is the professionalism that should characterize the proceedings up here. It should not be some partisan circus. We should not be pursuing some political objective. We should be searching for the truth. And when you`re dealing with highly classified material, it`s important sometimes to do that behind closed doors.

And one thing that Michael Isikoff left out was that we have also seen examples of where congressional committees have gotten away federal prosecutions, particularly in the Iran Contra investigation, where in fact subjects were not ultimately subject to criminal accountability because a bunch of members of congress went too far.

So, I want the truth out. I think the chairman absolutely shares that objective. And I think you will see very public oversight done in the Judiciary Committee and in the Government Reform and Oversight Committee, and in the Intelligence Committee where it doesn`t threaten our nation`s secrets.

But getting the job done right is also a priority and being professionals and nonpartisan I think is also important.

HAYES: I want to ask you about something the president`s lawyer said last night, which confuses all of us, and maybe you have a clue into it. He said, "I`ve been through the tapes, I`ve been through all the texts, I`ve been through all the emails, I knew none existed." Isaac Chotner (ph) of The New Yorker saying, wait, what tapes have you gone through?

Good followup question.

Giuliani: "I never shouldn`t have said tapes. There were no texts, there were no emails, and the president never told him to lie."

"So there were no tapes you listened to, though?"

"No tapes. Well, I have listened to tapes, but none of them concern this."

Do you have any idea what he`s talking about?

MALONEY: No, And i think it`s a sad state of affairs when Giuliani has become a noun, meaning incomprehensible stuff, or a verb, when you make a fool out of yourself and have to say something different the next day on TV.

You know, those of us from New York remember a different Rudy Giuliani. And it`s quite sad to see the depths that`s he`s sunk to.

Some of us remember a steady hand after 9/11, and even when you disagreed with his politics, you thought he was a serious person. Unfortunately, he`s lost that in service to the president.

HAYES: Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney, thank you very much.

Still to come, the chef that travels to disaster stricken areas to feed those in need, opens up a food kitchen on Pennsylvania Avenue for unpaid government workers. My interview with Chief Jose Andres ahead.

Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.


HAYES: Thing One tonight, Martin Luther King Jr. Day has come and gone, and as usual all sorts of people tried to co-opt his message for their own political purposes. Most notably, Mike Pence, quoting Dr. King to push for Trump`s border wall, the NRA tweeted about Dr. King`s denied application for a concealed carry permit to make their case to the right to self defense, even the white supremacy spouting Congressman Steve King, no relation, used the words about MLK about the dangers of staying silent about things that matter.

But, it was the brand spanking new governor of Tennessee, Republican Bill Lee, who may have had the worst day when he spoke at Tennessee State University`s MLK Day of service and convocation yesterday.


GOV. BILL LEE, (R) TENNESSEE: I wonder what Dr. King would think about where we are today. And I think that he would think that there has been much progress made, but he would think we have a long way to go. And that is what I believe as well.


HAYES: After the governor spoke, he took his seat on stage, and our old friend, the Reverend Dr. William Barber took his turn.


REV. DR. WILLIAM BARBER, POOR PEOPLE`S CAMPAIGN: Politicians can`t say how they love Dr. King and how he stood for love and unity, but then you deny and refuse to support his agenda. Right, governor?


HAYES: You`re going to want to stay tuned for Thing Two in 60 seconds.


HAYES: So Reverend William Barber spoke at an event in Nashville yesterday, honoring Dr. Martin Luther King. He followed the new Republican governor of Tennessee Bill Lee, and Barber was just not having any of it.


BARBER: Politicians can`t say they love Dr. King and how he stood for love and unity, but then you deny and refuses to support his agenda. Right, governor? I mean since you came, right congressman?

So let me show you what I mean, governor. Dr. King would not have been for a wall. And how many of y`all not against a wall? Everybody here that`s not against a wall, politicians, everybody, and will tell Donald Trump you don`t need to be building a wall to separate people. We need be spending money to get people health care now stand on your feet.

Now everybody who doesn`t stand on your feet, you get to see. Wait a minute. How many folk in here believe like Dr. King that everybody ought to have what Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, asked for 100 years ago and that`s your health care for every citizen? Everybody believe that, stand up.

Now if you can`t stand up for that, then don`t say you love Dr. King.

Governor, whats your last name? Lee. No, that ain`t no -- that`s not no Navajo name. That`s like Barber, even I`m mixed with it, that comes out of England. So, how is it that a whole bunch of folk that are nothing but immigrants themselves now want to pass some laws that if they were in place in the 1920s their own great grandmamas wouldn`t have been able to can come here.


HAYES: For the record, Bill Lee says he`s a seventh generation Tennessean, but three days into his new job I think the governor maybe got the message.


BARBER: You may be seated. I`m just saying, I`m too old to play now.




BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My understanding is is that Professor Gates then shows his ID to show that this is his house, and at that point he gets arrested for disorderly conduct, charges which are later dropped.

I think it`s fair to say number one, any of us would be pretty angry. Number two, that Cambridge Police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home.


HAYES: I remember the moment President Obama said that, because I was standing in the room, and it did not seem like he was saying anything particularly controversial. He was referring to a police officer handcuffing one of the most famous academics in the country on his own front porch, because he mistook the 58-year-old black man for a burglar.

And yet what followed was one of the most surreal reactionary backlashes of recent memory with conservatives inveighing against the president, and ultimately managing to push him into a painfully awkward beer summit on the White House grounds in which the professor, Henry Lewis Gates Jr. and the officer, were invited to have a conversation about it all.

I was reminded of that story when Laura Ingram reported today the president was inviting the students of Covington Catholic to the White House, but the White House immediately moved to knock that down.

Both the Gates incident and the Covington Catholic incident on the Mall captured the conservative imagination, inspired passionate outrage against what the right saw as a rush to judgment, both similar to the reaction defensive Justice Brett Kavanaugh when he was accused by Dr. Kristine Blasey Ford of sexual assault when they were both in high school.

Each of those stories are quite different in the particulars, we should note. The nature of the charge of wrongdoing against the white men and boys, the seriousness of the offense, the position they occupied, and details of what they did or did not do wrong. And in each case, in the specifics, there was a case surely to be marshaled on behalf of the white males accused of wrongdoing.

But it`s not particulars that drive the passion that make it the lead on Trump TV with 20 minute segments. Conservative writer David French summed it up succinctly, "last year conservatives wives looked at furious attack on Kavanaugh and thought that could be my husband. Now conservative moms look at the wild attempt to destroy the Covington kids and think that could be my son."

The defining conservative experience of this era is the palpable terror and rage at a social hierarchy that has threatened to tip over and land on its head, one in which those who enjoy a basic kind of American privilege, the right to due process and second chances, and charitable readings of their actions and even mistakes, find themselves seemingly without warning tossed instead onto the unforgiving bomb fire of snap judgment and harsh punishment.

And I understand why they are scared of that, why they want to fight it, because America is already the most punitive developed nation on Earth for poor people, for people of color, for those who don`t have Brett Kavanaugh`s pedigree or the authority of the badge or $10,000 a year to spend on private school tuition or money to hire a PR firm.

We throw millions of lives on to that bonfire every year, they just don`t normally look like the teenagers in MAGA hats.

And the answer isn`t a society that`s more punitive, or social media mobs doxxing children, one that permanently marks for life teenagers of all social strata, but rather a society of empathy, compassion, and accountability evenly, equitably, and justly applied.

But, funnily enough, it is hard to get the modern conservative grass roots mobilized on behalf of that goal, when the kids being stamped and judged and locked away don`t make them think that could be my son.


HAYES: 32 days into the longest shutdown in history, one of the most iconic images has been bread lines for federal workers. 32 days in, and thousands of people are facing eviction. Air traffic controllers are resigning. TSA officers aren`t showing up to work.

A new study says the shutdown has already had the same economic impact as a hurricane.

Now, as hundreds of thousands of Americans are now looking at another missed paycheck, keep in mind that 40 percent of Americans don`t have $400 available in case of an emergency.


HAYES: Joining me now Jose Andres, award-winning chef and humanitarian. His World Central Kitchen helps bring food to people in need across the world.

Jose, tell me a little bit about how you set up this kitchen, what motivated you to do it.

JOSE ANDRES, CHEF, FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: Well, let me tell you, Chris, we believe at World Central Kitchen that we have a food crisis. We have many people in the federal government right here in Washington, D.C. and many other cities across the country, mothers, single parents with children, already without one paycheck, probably the next one they`re not going to get it. And they need to feed their children. That`s why we`re doing it, to make sure that no American will go to bed hungry.

HAYES: You know, it`s striking how busy it is behind you. I`m wondering has the demand been what you expected? and what are you hearing from the people that are coming through to eat there?

ANDRES: Well, this began three days ago. I opened actually three days ago, this kitchen, but many of my for-profit restaurants we`ve been doing from day one as have many of my friends in Washington, D.C. like Ann Pizza (ph), and Sweet Greens (ph), many others. So the private center, we`ve been doing it for weeks.

World Central Kitchen, we are an NGO that are supposed to be feeding Americans and people around the world after emergencies. This to us is an emergency.

People, people are telling us all types of stories. We have not only federal workers, but contractors, people that they are trying to apply for Food Stamps, what we know as SNAPs, and they are being denied those Food Stamps. So it`s people that have no option, a job that is not paying them, and then trying to apply for food stamps and they are not receiving the aid they expect.

All of a sudden, we`re going to have in the next few days even a bigger problem.

HAYES: You`ve done these kinds of kitchens in the wake of disasters. You did it in Puerto Rico, you`ve done it in California. What are your thoughts about having to do it in this condition in which there is no natural disaster, has been no hurricane, there are no fires, the only thing that`s stopping the government from being shutdown is the president`s insistence on his wall?

ANDRES: Well, let me tell you one thing, I just came back from Tijuana a few days ago. World Central Kitchen has been feeding there, the many refugees that are in different shelters right on the border. And quite frankly, those are men and women that they need the job. They need to provide for the children. They need to provide for the families. To me, that`s not a national emergency.

This has been happening forever. So for me that somebody is trying only to create this out of nothing, quite frankly breaks my heart. This is a problem has been created by our government, by the White House and by congress. Actually, this shouldn`t be happening. Government is here to serve the people, not the people being taken hostage by the government. So this needs to end now.

How we do it, by opening a kitchen right on Pennsylvania Avenue, equal distance from the White House and congress. What we are hoping to do is that our politicians, hopefully maybe our president, will show up, will break bread here with the fellow workers, and they will see that people are really suffering, and it`s a suffering that should end, because they have the power to end it in any second. They only need to come together to the table and agree with each other and put an end to this shutdown.

HAYES: Have you had politicians come through?

ANDRES: Yeah. We`ve been having already many politicians, senators, congressmen. Today we had good day of men and woman serving. We saw Senator Kainspend almost an hour with us. I saw Congressman Castro, he spent a lot of time with us, too.

We`ve been having again many. Tomorrow is more coming. We hope it`s a place where Republicans and Democrats together will come to serve the fellow workers, to listen to their problems, to see everything they are facing right now, especially not being able to put food a in the table to feed their children.

HAYES: You were very active in Puerto Rico. You were there on the ground almost immediately. You fed a tremendous amount of people. You have a book about it. What are your reflections on some of the news that the president has been working hard to take money from funding from Puerto Rico that they have objected to some of the allocations passed out of congress and we still don`t really know the full story of what happened there.

ANDRES: Well, let me tell you one thing, I hope it`s not true. Puerto Rico is a beautiful part of America in the Caribbean. Puerto Rico should be next to Washington, D.C., the next two states to join the United States of America with voting full rights.

So I`m going to say this, the people of Puerto Rico, the American people of Puerto Rico, they don`t want our pity, they want our respect. We need to keep helping them to come back stronger so I hope it`s not true. I hope that it is not happening, that we are more advanced that they are dedicated to Puerto Rico away, and I hope that if anything, congress will realize that what we have to do is to come up with a Marshall plan to help Puerto Rico keep moving forward.

Puerto Rico is an opportunity for America to seize, let`s hope congress sees that and we keep investing in Puerto Rico, not taking money away from Puerto Rico.

HAYES: All right, Jose Andres, you`re doing amazing work. And thank you for making a little bit of time to talk to me today.

ANDRES: Thank you very much. See you, Chris.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.