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Mueller Investigation Flynn for Kidnapping plot Transcript 11/10/17 All In with Chris Hayes

Guests: Barbara Boxer, Michelle Goldberg, Kevin Roose, Laura Bassett

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: November 10, 2017 Guest: Barbara Boxer, Michelle Goldberg, Kevin Roose, Laura Bassett

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: And that`s HARDBALL for now, thanks for being with us. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.



SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Do you remember dating girls that young at that time?


HAYES: Roy Moore speaks out.

MOORE: I don`t remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother.

HAYES: Tonight Roy Moore`s selective defense and the Republican Party, trapped between Roy Moore and corporate tax cuts. Then --


HAYES: Explosive new reporting that President Trump`s National Security Adviser may have been secretly bribed on behalf of a foreign government.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: General Flynn is a wonderful man.

HAYES: And from Roy Moore to Louis C.K. as allegations against powerful men multiply, why the "If it`s true" response season enough.

SEN. MIKE LEE (R), UTAH: If they`re true, he should step aside.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. Fresh off its worst election night in at least five years, the Republican Party today finds itself trapped in a Roy Moore dilemma. The GOP candidate for U.S. Senate in an Alabama Special Election next month, Moore stands accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl when he was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney. Three other women say that Moore pursued them when they were teenagers. Moore denies the "on the record" allegations, which were first reported yesterday by the Washington Post. While Republicans on Capitol Hill seem to be hoping they`d just go away.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leader McConnell, do you believe the woman who made these accusations against Roy Moore? Leader McConnell, do you believe these women who made-on-the record accusations against Roy Moore, Sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leader McConnel, what more information do you need to hear to decide if these allegations against Roy Moore are true?


HAYES: That was at a meeting on the Republican tax plan for which Roy Moore could provide the crucial vote. Like many other Senate Republicans, Mitch McConnell has called on Moore to withdraw from the race if the allegations are true. No word yet on what they`re willing to accept as proof or whether Post reporting with four women on the record about their encounters with Moore including the mother of the 14-year-old girl, plus over 30 other sources, whether that meets the threshold. That caveat, if true, would seem to leave a whole lot of room for Moore`s claims that the allegations are false. In a radio interview today with Sean Hannity, Moore denied even knowing the 14-year-old Leigh Corfman, but he did not rule out the possibility of having had relationships with other teenagers while in his 30s.


MOORE: I don`t know Ms. Corfman from anybody. I`ve never talked to her, never had any contact with her. Allegations of sexual misconduct with her are completely false. I believe they`re politically motivated. I`ve never known this woman or anything. With regard to the girls, you understand this 40 years ago, and after my return from the military, I dated a lot of young ladies.

HANNITY: Would it be unusual for you as a 32-year-old guy to have dated a woman as 17? That would be a, what, 15-year difference. Or a girl 18. Do you remember dating girls that young at that time?

MOORE: Not generally, no. If I did, you know, I`m not going to dispute anything, but I don`t remember anything like that.


HAYES: Not generally, no. If I did, I`m not going to dispute it. Now, not everyone is willing to take Moore at his word. Former Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney tweeted, "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside." Senator John McCain called on Moore to withdraw yesterday after the story first broke. And in a statement, today, Virginia Congresswoman Barbara Comstock, one of the most vulnerable House Republican said Moore should not serve in the U.S. Senate. But Moore has made it clear he has no intention of dropping out of this race. His name will almost certainly be on that ballot, which means the only person standing between Roy Moore and the U.S. Capitol is his Democratic opponent Doug Jones, a former prosecutor who put away members of the KKK.

We`ll see if Jones picks up any big Republican endorsement. Meanwhile, Moore supporters have been circling the wagon portraying the former judge as the victim of a politically motivated smear campaign. His brother Jerry telling NBC News, "it`s kind of like when Jesus Christ was hung on the cross. I`m not saying Roy`s like Christ, I`m saying the allegations, the way they`re treating him is like the way they treated Christ." He went on to say there "ought to be something filed" against Moore`s accusers, echoing an Alabama state Rep named Ed Henry who told the local paper, if they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. Already, Rush Limbaugh is calling one of the accusers a "wacky woman" on his national radio show, while well-known alt-right figure posted her photo and workplace on Twitter before taking them down. The White House for its part repeated the "if true" caveat, adding a bit of extra wiggle room.


SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, PRESS SECRETARY, WHITE HOUSE: Like most Americans, the President believes that we cannot allow a mere allegation, in this case, one from many years ago, to destroy a person`s life. However, the President also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside.


HAYES: Do you the hear that part? Mere allegation, a mere allegation, this source -- this story with 30 sources and four on the record. It was that same Press Secretary just a few weeks ago stated from the White House podium that all the women who have accused the President himself of sexual misconduct, there are over a dozen of them, that all of them are liars. Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that from the podium. It was just over a year ago the President was elected to office even after those allegations were made public, many of them on the record and after voters heard audio if him of course famously bragging about committing such acts. Last night an event in New Hampshire, one-time Campaign Chief Steve Bannon recounted just how they made it through the Access Hollywood tape laying out a potential template for his friend, the man he`s endorsing, Roy Moore.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST, WHITE HOUSE: The Bezos, Amazon, Washington Post that dropped that dime on Donald Trump is the same Bezos, Amazon, Washington Post that dropped the dime this afternoon on Judge Roy Moore. Now is that a coincidence? On Billy Bush, Saturday, we got a, you know, kind of the high command and award council, nobody went around the room and they were telling some guys go on "60 minutes" and crying on Ivanka`s shoulder and other people you know, do this and do that, and apologize, and apologize, and apologize. I say we double down now, right? You`re Donald Trump and they`re not, right? I said, (INAUDIBLE) I said, let`s go have a rally.


HAYES: Steve Schmidt is a Republican Strategist and MSNBC Political Analyst. That appears to be the strategy of Bannon and his wing and the Alabama Republican Party. As someone who has worked your whole adult life in Republican politics, what is your reaction to that?

STEVE SCHMIDT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I don`t have the words to express my shame. It`s disgraceful. What we`re talking about here, Chris, is a 14-year-old little girl. Roy Moore is a pedophile. He`s a child molester. That`s what`s alleged here. This story is immaculately sourced. There are 30 corroborating sources that are contemporaneous to the accounts of the woman from the time and the years after. It`s obviously true. The notion that this is some sort of conspiracy that`s been built, designed by Satan in the words of Roy Moore over many years is pure nonsense talk. This whole notion of if the allegations are proven true, there will be no trial here. There`ll be no judge to render a verdict. This is not a court of law. These are credible allegations.

The Republican National Committee should severe all fundraising relationships with this campaign. Every Republican member of the United States Senate should signal that should he be elected that he`ll refuse to, that they`ll refuse to caucus with Roy Moore. Every one of them should call on him to drop out of this race. They should repudiate it. The moral wrought in the Republican Party, the wrought, the stench, the cancer of Bannonism is a plague on this country. It is a sad, sad day. Ronald Reagan, Abraham Lincoln, Dwight Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, they`re rolling over in their graves tonight. Shame on Mitch McConnell, shame on Paul Ryan for not speaking out, not doing the right thing here, shame on them.

HAYES: You know, there`s these two camps, there`s the Bannonite camp and the Alabama Republicans who are kind of rallying around Moore, the people around him, and folks on Trump T.V. who have been saying you know, it`s fabricated. The women make things up. And then there`s people like Mitt Romney and Barbara Comstock and John McCain to their credit saying this in and of itself is disqualifying. Then today you had this -- there`s this other category, which is the biggest category, the kind of I`m not sure. Today you had Mike Lee first asking for his name to be pulled off the fundraising document, the picture of him with Roy Moore. First, he wanted his picture removed, then later after the interview, he rescinded his endorsement as did Steve Daines of Montana rescinded their endorsement. Is that enough?

SCHMIDT: No, it`s not enough. There needs to be a repudiation, not just a recession of an endorsement. He should be called on to get out of the race when he is accused of doing this molesting a little girl. We`re talking about a 14-year-old little girl. This is disgraceful. It couldn`t be more disgusting. This is predatory criminal behavior. It`s child molestation. The conspiracy theories that have run rampant on extremist radio, on extremist political T.V. today certainly it shouldn`t be defined as conservative. It has no -- it has no connection to the conservatism that I grew up with.

It has no connection to any rectitude or probity that you would expect of some of our nation`s highest-ranking leaders. It is a sad and appalling moment. And if I could say, the courage of this woman to come forward, knowing what was going to come at her, we should all reflect on that. And I do think that what you`ll see in Alabama, there`s a lot of pessimism about Doug Jones` chances here. There`s a way to go in this race. And I think that certainly, the Democratic Party should be all in on this race, all in for Doug Jones on this race. And you`d like to see Mitt Romney, John McCain, some of the others who have been so principled on this, they ought to endorse Doug Jones in this race.

HAYES: That to me strikes me. That is going to be the choice. I mean, it`s almost no way to get him off the ballot even logistically. It`s going to be Roy Moore on that ballot and Doug Jones and maybe a write-in candidate. And if you really think Roy Moore is unfit, then I agree with you that Doug Jones is the option. Steve Schmidt, really, really great to have you tonight. Thank you.

SCHMIDT: It`s been my pleasure.

HAYES: Barbara Boxer is a former U.S. Senator from the State of California. And Senator, you know, you served that picture of those men there, Chuck Grassley and Mitch McConnell and a few others. You served with these men for decades in the United States Senate in some cases. Are you surprised by the way they are reacting to this in not being more full- throated?

BARBARA BOXER, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: Truly, I am. And I am so thankful to people like Steve Schmidt that give me hope for this country and John McCain and yes, Mitt Romney and the others who read the story. And you know, I held back until I read every word of that story. And if I -- if I could just ask the people of Alabama, just read the story and follow your heart and your mind and don`t be blinded by anything else but that story because we know it`s real. You just have to read it. You can feel it as a human being, as a mom or a dad or as a victim.

But let me say I am surprised, particularly Mitch who I worked very well with towards the end of my tenure. I`m surprised because he went through the Packwood case. And this was another situation where Bob Packwood was re-elected to the United States Senate. He had run on a very strong feminist agenda from Oregon and right after he won, the Washington Post wrote up with of these incredible in-depth investigative stories like this one and named sources of about 15, 16 women who said he had abused them, no children. By the way, that`s a whole other thing we can talk about, and Mitch, for several years there I had to fight so hard with Bob deal with Mitch McConnell.

And finally, Bob Packwood`s diaries came out. The truth will always come out. And in this case, there were 30 people, as you mentioned who really made this story real. So I`m shocked. At the end of the day, Packwood left in disgrace. Ron Wyden took his place and he`s been there ever since. Mitch ought to know, this isn`t the going away and he -- let me tell you what I think they ought to do. They have to send the Ethics Committee team out there. I served on the Ethics Committee for many years. I chaired it for a while. Then I was the highest Democrat on there. Send a team out to meet with these accusers. You don`t have to talk to Roy Moore. Just talk to the accusers. Talk to the community and get involved. Don`t just say, if it`s true, find out for yourself if it`s true.

HAYES: Do you think there`s any recourse? I mean, McConnell in the Packwood case ultimately sort of came out against Packwood, right? I mean, he did --

BOXER: Well, it took a very long time.

HAYES: It took him a while, right?

BOXER: Well, let me tell you. It took so long and truly I was taken to task so many times on the floor because I wanted to open up the discussion of Packwood and they tried to keep it quiet. It was a very ugly thing. I mean, I wrote a book on it. I had very a different take on it than Mitch. But the point is, for 2 1/2 years after that, he was there and it did not do the Republican Party or the United States Senate any good to have a predator among our group. Now, look, in the whole country, since we started, it`s been less than 2,000 Senators.

Please, there`s got to be somebody better than this man, who not only in my mind after reading the story do I think he`s a pedophile, but he`s also just the biggest hypocrite on the face of the earth. The biggest hypocrite who ran around saying how moral he was how immoral everybody else is. I say to the people of Alabama, they have this opportunity regardless of what we say, it doesn`t matter, it`s what you want to do. What is the image you want to send? And there are so many other people, if you don`t like the Democrat, write in somebody. If you don`t like that person, you know, write in your own name. You don`t have to vote for this man just because he has an R behind his name.

HAYES: You don`t have to vote for this man --

BOXER: R for repulsive if could say. R for repulsive, that`s what I would say.

HAYES: Former Senator Barbara Boxer, I really appreciate you being here tonight.

BOXER: Thanks.

HAYES: Tonight from Harvey Weinstein, to Roy Moore, to Louis C.K., on and on, we`ll talk about this unprecedented cultural moment -- social moment that we`re going through and reports that Special Counsel Robert Mueller is looking into allegations about a deal involving Michael Flynn $50million and a Turkish prison island. The details in two minutes.


HAYES: NBC News reporting tonight that Special Council Robert Mueller`s office is currently investigating whether Michael Flynn who spent 24 days as National Security Adviser under President Trump discussed cutting a deal with senior Turkish officials shortly before the inauguration to forcibly remove a legal resident in the United States and deliver him into Turkey`s custody in exchange of a secret payment of upwards of $15 million. Potential target was this man, Fethullah Gulen a cleric living in Pennsylvania who Turkish strong man Recep Tayyip Erdogan blames for the last year`s failed coup attempt. The Wall Street Journal reports that the discussions allegedly involved the possibility of transporting Gulen on a private jet to the Turkish prison island of Imrali according to one of the people who has spoken with the FBI.

And in a statement today, Flynn`s lawyers call the allegations broadly false but did not address them specifically. Reportedly under investigation are both Flynn and his son, Michael Flynn Jr. who both worked together at the Flynn Intel Group. In March the elder Flynn belatedly registered as a foreign agent after it was revealed that the Flynn Intel Group was paid $530,000 to secretly lobby on Turkey`s behalf while Flynn was working on Trump`s campaign in 2016. Also, Flynn penned an op-ed that ran on election day hailing our ally Turkey and seeking the expulsion of Gulen. Flynn cast as the radical Islamist who may run a dangerous sleeper terror network. I`m joined now by one of NBC News Reporter who issuing the byline of this story, National Political Reporter Carol Lee. Well, that`s a heck of a story. What do we know about what investigators know?

CAROL LEE, NBC NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, we know that they`re looking into whether there were these two asks from Turkey to Michael Flynn. There was the Gulen one that you just walked through very well and then there was another one that would essentially the request was to drop charges against an ally of President Erdogan of Turkey, who`s jailed in the U.S. for helping Iran avoid U.S. sanctions, among other things. So these -- the Special Counsel is looking into whether these two things -- these two things -- at least those two things were proposed to Flynn and Flynn accepted that if he was able to accomplish these tasks once he was in the White House, that there would be a payment indirectly or directly of upwards of $15 million.

We also know that they`re looking at whether this discussion about this occurred at a meeting in December of 2016 at the 21 Club Restaurant in New York and that whether Flynn and Senior Turkish officials had this discussion there at that particular meeting. And we also have learned that they`re looking at what, if any, role Michael Flynn`s son may have played in such a deal.

HAYES: So I just want to be clear because what we do know, what was revealed is that he is working during the campaign while his an adviser, he`s working as essentially unregistered foreign agent for Turkish interest to the tune of a half a million dollars. This focuses on the period after the election victory Donald Trump had transitioned into the actual time he`s serving in the U.S. government in one of the most high ranking security posts. Correct?

LEE: Correct. And if you -- the contract that the Flynn Intel Group, which an ex-lobbying firm, had with Turkey ended the day after the election, so then you know, soon after he was named National Security Adviser, he obviously took a number of meetings, phone calls and discussions with foreign leaders and other you know dignitaries and things like that. But this is -- this is what the Special Counsel is looking into is whether this was different, whether these conversations had a different tone and potentially you know, involve something that`s highly illegal.

HAYES: The tale to me always -- and the thing that`s always -- an election op-ed about Fethullah Gulen and a relationship with Turkey as opposed to go vote for Donald Trump when you`re the senior adviser in that campaign, looks a lot like someone who thought that you know, he was running out of the opportunity to monetize that relationship to a candidate as opposed to a guy who feel super strongly about Turkey on election day?

LEE: Yes, and you know, these -- this issue, the Gullen issue is one that you know, President Erdogan of Turkey is obsessed with.

HAYES: Obsessed with.

LEE: He just brings this up in meetings with U.S. officials all time and has pressed them to extradite this cleric and he clearly, you know, saw if these allegations turn out to be true, you can envision Turkey seeing someone like Flynn, that they had a relationship with as somebody they may propose something like this to.

HAYES: All right, Carol Lee, thanks for being with me.

LEE: Thank you.

HAYES: And with me now is MSNBC Legal Analyst, former Assistant U.S. Attorney Nick Akerman who`s part of the team that prosecuted Watergate. I mean talk about whoa, if true.

NICK AKERMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: This is unbelievable. I mean, this borders on quid pro quo bribery. It borders on a huge conflict of interest. I mean, it`s a part of the same pattern that you`ve seen in this administration where people are in this for themselves and not in it for the good of the American people. They`re trying to line their own pockets. So this is all a part of the same pattern that we`ve seen right across the board.

HAYES: You know, it`s a good point because the Manafort -- the most-- one of the most-incriminating e-mails Manafort sent was turning around to his assistant in Ukraine after he gets to be appointed to be you know, on the campaign and says, how do we use to make whole? Like how do we monetize this position? We know that Flynn was monetizing his position essentially during the campaign. The question is, was he trying to do it as the National Security Adviser of the United States of America?

AKERMAN: Well, it certainly appears that way. I mean, first of all, he was lying to the FBI at the time. He was questioned about his meeting with Ambassador Kislyak the Russian Ambassador. He did not tell them about the sanctions which was continuing theme also that started right with the Trump Tower meeting June 9th with Don Junior and continued right through to the time that Trump became president, which is why Congress vote a law that basically handcuffed the president. So this was an issue that rings true in a lot of respects. The real question is, if he took $15 million and was willing to take $15 million to pull what was basically kind of a James Bond escapade to take out this cleric from Pennsylvania.

HAYES: I mean, was it an extradition or a kidnapping, or a forcible removal? I mean, however you want to characterize it. It`s a remarkable thing to consider.

AKERMAN: It`s not a normal extradition because in the United States of America --

HAYES: There is judicial process.

AKERMAN: You go into court and you have papers. And --

HAYES: Which is why -- we should just be clear, the reason this man resides in the Poconos, Pennsylvania, and it is a weird story that a man who`s this sort of an exiled cleric who runs a spiritual social movement in Turkey that the government blames for (INAUDIBLE) happens in the Poconos but the reason he`s still there is, he is not extraditable by the normal judicial procedures.

AKERMAN: That`s right. And that`s the way it works in this country. Another theme running through this administration is that they had no regard for the rule of law. And this is just another example of that. And if they`re doing it for $15 million, that`s even worse.

HAYES: He already prior to this seem to have exposure on the foreign agent registration. And the reason that I thought of that was, one of the counts of the indictment against Manafort is about filling a register, right?

AKERMAN: And there`s good reasons why you want people to register. It`s because you`re disclosing to the world and to the U.S. government that yes, I`m acting on behalf of this government. Here, it was all hidden. It was hidden when he met with people to talk about getting Gullen out of the country and it was hidden when he purposely decided not to let this operation in Raqqa go forward. And it basically set the U.S. military back several months.

HAYES: You are referring to a reporting earlier in the year that he was a key decision-maker about the timing of essentially the final assault on Raqqa and delayed it.

AKERMAN: Because he did not want the Turkish government, didn`t want the Kurds involved in this, you know, whole expedition.

HAYES: Right. What they did -- the Turkish government really doesn`t like the armed Kurdish forces that have been effective fighting ISIS. They are afraid that this have happened too soon. They essentially would take Raqqa and take the lands and that would give them a stranglehold that the Turks are incredibly skeptical of because of their history.

AKERMAN: Right. Even though the Turkish government doesn`t have the wherewithal all to do it themselves.

HAYES: Right. So I mean, you got -- there are so many questions about who exactly Michael Flynn was working for and at that moment. If any part of this story ends up being true, we`re obviously going to learn about it. It is absolutely explosive.

AKERMAN: But the biggest question is why was it that Donald Trump said to James Comey, you got to drop this investigation? That`s the big question.

HAYES: About Michael Flynn, that`s a great point. Nick Akerman, thanks for your time tonight.

AKERMAN: Thank you.

HAYES: Ahead the Mueller probe digs deeper in the President`s inner sanctum as Stephen Miller reportedly faces questions about the firing of James Comey. That`s next.


HAYES: Special Counsel Robert Mueller`s investigation is methodically working its way through the innermost sanctum of the White House. After having interviewed Communications Director Hope Hicks, the Mueller team has now interviewed White House Senior Policy Adviser Stephen Miller according to CNN report, citing unnamed sources familiar with the investigation. Miller`s chief relevance to the Russia investigation may be his role in the President`s firing of James Comey. according to the New York Times, Miller wrote a memo largely dictated by the President himself, citing President Trump`s reasons for firing then FBI Director James Comey. One of the President`s lawyers reportedly stopped the release of that letter because he found it angry and problematic.

Mueller though has a copy of it. And the copy of it was reportedly in the hands of Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein when he drafted his own now-infamous letter which formed the basis of Comey`s termination. So the Miller memo and testimony can be crucial in building the case for obstruction of justice. Meanwhile, former Trump Foreign Policy Adviser George Papadopoulos is reportedly upset that the President is now trying to distance himself from Papadopoulos even though Papadopoulos lied to the FBI out of loyalty to Trump according to the reporting of NBC News, which sends a message of course to anyone making a calculation for themselves right now about whether President Trump will have their back. And he won`t.

The right wing shock jocks who infiltrate YouTube and social media next.


HAYES: Within hours of the mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas on Sunday if you were to search YouTube for information about that massacre, you might have come across a video by a right wing shock jock naned Elmer T. Williams. And there you would find a rambling video monologue that was full of false claims, but posted soon enough to take advantage of breaking news interest and even become temporarily prioritized by YouTube`s own algorithm.

On Sunday night right after the Texas shooting, Williams told his subscribers and anyone who happened to stumble on his video after searching, the gunman was probably, quote, either a Muslim or black. After the suspected was identified as a white male, Williams posted another video falsely speculating he gunman could be a Bernie Sanders supporter and probably a member of the left wing group ANTIFA.


ELMER T. WILLIAMS, YOUTUBER: This is the millennium, meaning that he`s probably a Bernie Sanders supporter. Almost all of the ANTIFA people, they`re are in love with Bernie Sanders because he`s a socialist, freaking idiots.

I mean, we keep seeing all of these church shootings. And there don`t seem to be any outrage.


HAYES: New York Times business columnist Kevin Roose happened to come across these videos. And when asked YouTube questions about Mr. Williams account, all of Williams` YouTube videos were turned down, his account terminated for violation of YouTube policy on hate speech. But Williams had 90,000 subscribers,sometimes posting 20 times per day, and his posts, according -- until YouTube acted to take him down, were monologues peppered with gross falsehoods.


WILLIAMS: This is breaking news that nobody has this story but your doctor. They said this particular ban that Donald Trump has implemented on the Muslim affects your former President Barack Hussein Obama.

It appears that some left wing kook, it was actually Rand Paul`s neighbor, he decided to put one of those football tackles on Rand Paul.

I Bet you his neighbor is a Bernie Sanders or Hillary supporter.


HAYES: The New York Times business and tech columnist Kevin Roose, who wrote the piece on YouTube`s rapid response partisans joins me now.

It was really a fascinating piece. I mean, so there is a bunch of things happening here. Let`s talk first about -- I mean, someone uploading to YouTube is fine, neither here nor there, the most troubling part is this sort of algorithm elevating it so that like you go to YouTube to be like whgat happened in Sutherland Springs and you`re getting this?

KEVIN ROOSE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah, when I did the search for the Sutherland Springs shooting, I think something like five or six of the first 10 videos that showed up were these kind of conspiratorial shock jocks who upload these videos. And they do it very quickly, because YouTube does have an algorithm that weights videos according to credibility and page size and things like that, but before any of the major networks could get their videos up, there were already dozens of these kind of videos out there. And so they`re playing like a speed game, essentially, and they`re winning. They`ve learned to sort of game the algorithm.

HAYES: There`s also -- this happens on Google News and other platforms as well, where right after an event like this, The stuff that`s rising to the top is the most conspiratorial.

ROOSE: Yeah, and it`s engaging. I mean, you can see why people watch it. It`s a lot more interesting to think that you`ve stumbled into a guy explaining a conspiracy story than to just have a straight news story. And so there has been a weaponization of the algorithm and platform to purvey these sort of crazy conspiracy stories.

HAYES: How big are the audiences for this world? I mean, obviously Info Wars, which is the sort of ultimate or conspiracy channel on YouTube is a massive reach. But there is a huge ecosystem beneath that.

ROOSE: Yeah. So, Elmer Williams, I called him. He lives in Houston. He has made something like 10,000 videos, 20 a day sometimes, he has been doing this eight years. He says he`s gotten 200 million view, 90,000 subscribers. And he`s sort of a marginal figure, like he is not the top tier of the Alex Joneses of this ecosystem and still he`s big enough that YouTube actually invited him into their partner program which allows him to make money by showing ads on his videos.

HAYES: And he says something -- what`s the quote here. He says if YouTube didn`t punish me, I could easily be making over $30,000 a month.

ROOSE: Yeah. And I don`t whether know if that`s true. Look, I don`t know if he`s exaggerated. The fact that he is being paid to produce these or was until YouTube shut down his account.

And I think that`s the difference between what we`re seeing on other platforms like Facebook and Twitter. In those cases, some of the misinformation specialists are having to pay to place adds, get their message out there.

In the case of YouTube, they`re actually getting paid to do this.

HAYES: But the similarity across all of it that strikes me is that it`s like this question of are you a printing press or are you a newspaper?

Like, if are you a printing press and someone says, like, make a thousand of these flyers, you make them, and you don`t look at the content at all. If are you a newspaper and someone says print this you say, well, is this true?

And all the of the platforms, it strikes me -- YouTube, Facebook, Twitter are all caught in an uncomfortable place between the two.

ROOSE: Absolutely, because they are like printing presses in a way, and they`re democratized platforms where anyone can upload anything. And that`s -- I think that`s good, but they`ve also taken on the responsibility of showing curated agorithmically sorted front pages to people. And that`s what brings in the editorial judgment that they have, thus far, not been willing to take on.

HAYES: And these sorts of stamps of approval, right. So, it`s like if you are partnered with them, that shows up in some way, and that`s some kind of judgment they`re making. It`s unclear what the content of that judgment is?

ROOSE: Yeah. I think they do it in various ways. I mean, YouTube`s partner program is available to all pages above a certain size. I think in this case they made a mistake by letting him into his program, because he shouldn`t have had an account at all, according to their terms of service, because he had been previously banned from another account.

So, he`s sort of a repeat offender. But there are lots of guys out there who actually aren`t technically breaking any of the rules.

HAYES: All right, Kevin Roose, it`s a great piece. Thanks for coming by.

ROOSE: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: Coming up, Louis C.K. responds to sexual harassment accusations say the sexual harassment stories are true. We`ll talk about the latest in this watershed moment for allegations and what to make of this social moment ahead. Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.


HAYES: Thing One tonight, we told you last night about some of the extraordinarily unqualified people that President Trump has nominated for his administration and for federal judges, including four judicial nominees who have dubbed unqualified by the American Bar Association, which is extremely rare, two of those nominees were unanimously voted not qualified, and that is something that hasn`t happened since back in 2006, and that nominee was withdrawn.

Now, Brett Talley, that second person there, he has practiced law for, you want to take a guess: three years. He`s practiced laws for three years. Brett Talley has also never tried a case. But at 36-years-old, he is now up for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench.

His rabidly partisan beliefs have been on full display less than two weeks after the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School. He urged readers on his blog to join the NRA. Last year he tweeted about, quote, Hillary "Rotten" Clinton and suggested she should be jailed.

So that is who is nominated.

The Senate judiciary committee just held a vote on this man, Brett Talley. Never tried a case. Three years out of law school. Every single Democrat voted not to confirm him and his three years of experience practicing law to a lifetime position on the federal bench. But can you guess how each of these Republicans voted? That`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.



SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Mr. Talley graduated from law school 10 years ago. What`s more, in a senate questionnaire, he stated, I have not tried a case. He has been nominated for a lifetime appointment as a federal district court judge, but has no trial experience.


HAYES: That was the ranking member of the Senate judiciary committee, Democrat Dianne Feinstein at the confirmation hearing for one of President Trump`s judicial nominees, 36-year-old conservative blogger Brett Talley. Yesterday, Talley was approved by the Senate judiciary committee on a party line vote. Every Democrat opposed him while not a single Republican objected.

So now Senator Mitch McConnell will hold a full Senate vote on Brett Talley. And every Senator must decide whether a blogger who the Bar Association unanimously calls not qualified, who tweeted about Hillary "Rotten" Clinton and has all of three years experience practicing law should receive a lifetime appointment as a federal judge.


HAYES: Today, comedian Louis C.K. admitted to sexual he watched several women. The New York Times reported yesterday he had previously asked several women to watch him masterbate and had done it with several of them. In a statement today, the comedian said, quote, these stories are true.

Louis C.K. is only the latest in a very it`s the latest in a very, very, very long string of men recently accused of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct or sexual assault. The flood began last month after dozens of women stepped forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein of rape and abuse.


LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: Tonight a bombshell new allegation against Kevin Spacey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Legendary film producer Harvey Weinstein is fired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The company has suspended its entertainment chief Roy Price amid sexual harassment allegations.

HOLT: Also tonight breaking tonight, star comedian Louis C.K. accused by five women of sexual misconduct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CNN is reporting allegations regarding our friend Mark Halperin.

MATT LAUER, NBC NEWS: That has led to accusations against former president George H.W. Bush.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Portia De Rossi claims Steven Segal exposed himself to her.

HOLT: New allegations of sexual misconduct and assault against a growing list of powerful men. This time, they include legendary actor Dustin Hoffman, well known director Brett Ratner, Emmy award-winning actor Jeremy Piven, and also the chief of NPR News.


HAYES: It`s a singular moment we`re in the midst of right now as more and more women, and many men, too, speak about their experience with sexual harassment or assault and about how hard it is for them to be believed.

And that is perhaps the core question now in the Alabama Senate race where Republican Roy Moore is facing allegations reported in The Washington Post of sexual contact with a 14-year-old girl. What does it take for people to believe these accusers, even as some lawmakers and media outlets call them liars and opportunists. That`s next.



SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Do people do it for money? Do they do it for political reasons? How come? Is that more common than people would think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, definitely. I mean, they`ll do this for...

HANNITY: They will lie to make money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, undoubtedly. And these individuals, a lot of these women, it`s all about money and they bank on the fact that these corporations...

HANNITY: And this is where you thread the needle, because there are women that are victims of predators.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are, but very few and far between.


HAYES: So hard. So hard.

Laura Bassett, senior political reporter for The Washington Post where she covers women`s rights, and Michelle Goldberg, columnist at The New York Times. She`s written about the Weinstein scandal and the widening allegations of sexual harassment. Good to have you both.

Where to start right now? I mean, it feels, you know, I want to -- when I wrote my first book, I did reporting on the Catholic church scandal. And this feels like that, but for all of society where it was like -- there were decades of secrets and trauma that people have kept in and it just started to come out.

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, NEW YORK TIMES: And I don`t find it. I mean, to me it`s not liberating, it`s this kind of grim slog where on the one hand, it`s like our consolation prize for having this monstrous misogynist as president that we`re going to expose all these other people are going to be exposed. But what it just -- to me it makes me despair about the prospects for gender equality.

HAYES: Huh, why?

GOLDBERG: If this behavior is so pervasive, if you basically have to tear down almost every cultural institution in America.

HAYES: Everything, from academia to...

GOLDBERG: Right, in order to have some hope of parity. And also just the growing realization of how many men that I`ve interacted with that I actually had no idea had such contempt for women.

HAYES: You have written about this. You wrote this piece that women recall the first time a man masterbated in front of them without consent, which was -- I have to say, like part of the process of this as a man is like is having the scales fall from your eyes about what women are exposed to? What has it been like to cover this?

LAURA BASSETT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yeah, well, I think that -- and people do understand that it`s worth pointing out that the stories that make the news are the Harvey Weinsteins and the Louis C.K.`s, it`s because they`re a celebrity that it makes news. But for most women, it`s not actually news that men do this.

For me, for a lot of women, for most women that I`ve talked to, we have been sexually harassed in every job we have ever been in, including -- I mean, the media, the fourth estate is supposed to be the police of institutionalized sexual misconduct, and yet it`s all over the media. We have all been harassed by men we work with.

And then, you know, of course, the stories of random men masterbating in front of us throughout our lives. I mean, the first time it happened to me I was five-years-old. And the reason my story is about the first time it happened to you is because it`s happened multiple times to many of us. And so I think what we are reading about in the news is just the very tip of the iceberg.

HAYES: I understand the feeling of like a grim slog, because it does feel -- there is sort of a lot of trauma around this, and I`m on the outside looking in at that trauma, but even I can feel it, right? But there is something about like the the standard of believing. Like belief, that does seem to have changed in a palpably encouraging way in the last month.

GOLDBERG: Right, again, it`s why all these people are suddenly coming forward, right? Because a lot of these stories were known. There was one story, there is somebody who, a media figure who recently resigned. I tried to report that story a year-and-a-half ago, and people were not willing to talk publicly and now they are, because they know that they will be believed. They know that -- and they know that these -- that this is no longer considered acceptable, that`s the other thing. There is sort after a question of some of this behavior was, not Harvey Weinstein`s scale, but maybe some of the lesser, you know, (inaudible) tier that was just considered -- that was what is considered acceptable has changed extremely quickly. And so now people have grounds to make complaints, that just didn`t exist previously.

BASSETT: I`m also heartened by seeing so many men doing a lot of genuine self reflecting and thinking really hard about how they contribute to a rape culture all the time. I`ve had men in my life approach me and, say, OK, if I want to hit on a co-worker, what is OK? You know, is any office romance OK? If I want to DM someone, what makes it creepy?

And on the one hand, I`m frustrated that I have to explain how not to sexually harass people, on the other hand, let`s have those conversations. I would rather that than what was happening before.

HAYES: There is a lot of auditing I think that people are doing, men are doing, of their behavior that I think is really useful and needed and overdue.

GOLDBERG: It is. Although, I really worry -- I mean, I really worry that as we conflate like creepy direct messages with harassment and rape and conflate these sort of borderline cases with systematic harassment, I very much worry about the coming backlash.

You know, the reason that this is happening in left of center cultural institution, but not really in right of center cultural institutions is because at least everybody in left of cultural institutions agrees that there is a problem, even if they`re behaving hypocritically and so you have kind of...

HAYES: Right. Even if you even see that in the statement of Weinstein who is just sort peak of this whole thing.

GOLDBERG: Right, so people are willing to act on, you know, you kind of -- a couple of credible charges come forward and people are very quickly, you know, losing their jobs, being stripped of titles, all those sorts of thing. And I hope that that continues to be the rule. I worry that people are looking for an excuse not to have to do that.

HAYES: Well, and Roy Moore seems to be a test case right now. I mean, you have people saying like not only is it fake, not only is it not true, but like even if it is...

BASSETT: Right. The most stunning comment I read was, well, Jesus and Mary -- Joseph was way older than Mary. She was a teenager when she had Jesus, and so this is -- you know, in the Bible says it`s OK.

HAYES: And you have seen Rush Limbaugh talking about -- oh, and you`re not going to be able to look at women`s breasts.

GOLDBERG: But again I think goes to the different set of standards. I mean, on the one hand you have this clearly liberal culture is full of.

HAYES: Hypocrites, right?

GOLDBERG: Full of pigs, but at least there are these standards that allow people to be held accountable.

HAYES: All right, Laura Bassett and Michelle Goldberg, thanks for being here tonight. That is All In for this evening.



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