Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: January 4, 2017 Guest: Karen Bass; Jess McIntosh; Anton Gunn, Kevin de Leon, Adam Schiff, Nancy Giles, Randal Pinkett
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN" starts right now.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
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SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: We`re united in our opposition to these republican attempts to make America sick again.
REID: Democrats unite to fight for Obamacare as the President-elect warns republicans over the risks of repeal.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: And as he said this morning in a tweet.
REID: Tonight, the fight to save Obamacare has officially begun and democrats have a plan.
Plus, the headquarters of the resistance, California, hires a high-powered attorney.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t want to go there, OK?
REID: Inside Donald Trump`s love for Wikileaks as he escalates his fight with American intelligence.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Wikileaks, I love Wikileaks.
REID: And from Rockettes to marching bands to brand-name celebrities, Donald Trump`s trouble attracting the star power he craves for his big day.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You are not summoned to perform for the king or for the dictator.
REID: ALL IN starts now."
Good evening from New York, I`m Joy Reid in for Chris Hayes. With just 16 days until Donald Trump becomes president, democrats say they have a battle plan for what will be the first big fight of the Trump administration. Obamacare, along with a fancy new slogan that they plan to use to make their case.
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SCHUMER: The republican plan to cut healthcare wouldn`t make America great again, it would make America sick again.
REID: That was incoming democratic leader Senator Charles Schumer this morning after Schumer and his democratic colleagues met on Capitol Hill today with President Obama to discuss their strategy to fight GOP efforts to repeal the health care law. Also on the Hill today was Vice President- elect Mike Pence who vowed the GOP`s repeal and replace plans are on track.
PENCE: As I said today to members of the senate, that the first order of business is to repeal and replace Obamacare.
REID: Senate republicans have now taken the first step in that direction, voting today to start debate on a budget resolution to repeal substantial parts of the law. But repeal is the easy part, it`s the replacement that`s the problem.
SCHUMER: For years they`ve talked about repeal but for five years now they have had nothing to put in its place. Now, they`re responsible for the entire health care system and it will be on their backs and I believe a year from now, they will regret that they came out so fast out of the box to repeal.
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REID: Now, democrats can`t stop republicans from hobbling Obamacare, but they can help make the process politically painful and potentially disastrous for the GOP, and they have a strategy. As POLITICO reports, democrats plan to hold rallies in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia, featuring Americans who have benefited from the law. Leading up to nationwide rallies on January 15th warning of the chaos they say would ensue if the law is repealed. Democrats also plan to use the amendment process to force republican to take politically toxic votes on popular provisions like protecting people with pre-existing conditions. And they`re encouraging Americans to bombard their representatives with phone calls opposing repeal. Republicans have signaled, they plan to repeal the health care law in the near term, but maybe delay the effective date possibly for years as they work on a replacement.
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REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We have a plan to replace it. We have plenty of ideas to replace it, and you`ll see as the weeks and months unfold, what we`re talking about replacing it.
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REID: But voting for repeal while delaying a replacement could mean massive financial losses for hospitals and insurers and potentially result in millions of Americans losing their healthcare coverage. The American medical association yesterday came out against the delayed replacement plan and some prominent republicans, including Senator Rand Paul, are warning about problems if they delay on a replacement. But republicans don`t have much in the way of good options. Replacing the law effectively means overhauling the entire American health care system. And let`s just say that`s not an easy task. Just ask democrats, especially if you want to keep the parts of Obamacare that Americans like.
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LESLEY STAHL, AMERICAN TELEVISION JOURNALIST: When you replace it, are you going to make sure that people with pre-conditions are still covered?
TRUMP: Yes, because it happens to be one of the strongest assets.
STAHL: You`re going to keep that.
TRUMP: Also, with the children living with their parents for an extended period we`re going to --.
STAHL: You`re going to keep that?
TRUMP: -- very much try and keep that in. Adds cost but it`s very much something we`re going to try and keep.
REID: Well, Donald, you can`t keep all the good stuff like coverage for people with pre-existing conditions while eliminating the ostensibly bad stuff like the individual mandate that make that coverage possible. Trump himself seems to realize the political peril his party now faces and today, he seemed to walk pretty close to opposing repeal, Trump tweeting that, "Republicans must be careful in that the Dems own the failed ObamaCare disaster" and later adding "it will fall of its own weight, be careful". Now even if that were true and it most likely is not true, it would be political suicide for republicans to simply let the law stand after spending years and years casting it as a democracy-threatening disaster.
But the costs of repeal could be very, very high, particularly in the Rustbelt States that narrowly gave Trump his win. Take a look at these maps. The one on the left shows the percentage of Americans with health care coverage in 2013. See how it`s all dark there? And look at the one on the right. It shows the percentage of Americans with coverage in 2016. See, see all that light blue there on 2016 map? That`s where people got coverage and as you can see it was disproportionately right in those rust belt states. Well, now millions of people in those states face the possibility of losing their health care coverage and the party that is poised to take it away, that coverage, doesn`t seem to have any real plan in place to replace it. This morning on MSNBC, West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin, arguably the most conservative democrat in the senate, laid out the stakes.
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SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Donald Trump won West Virginia by 43 percent. 43 percent. Unbelievable, OK? Now, a lot of the people didn`t know and they really still don`t know how they got health care called Affordable Care Act or Obamacare, but I`ll assure you one thing, they`ll know when -- who did it and got rid of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
MANCHIN: They`ll know that. They might not know how they got it, they`ll know how they got rid of it.
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REID: Joining me now is Democratic Representative Karen Bass of California. All right, congresswoman. So the last thing that you just heard from Joe Manchin who`s arguably -- I mean, he is quite a red state conservative. As democrat his -- Trump won his state by 43 percent but you heard him say "a lot of people don`t know, they really still don`t know how they got health care called ObamaCare but they`re sure going to know who got rid of it for them." What is the democrats` plan to let those people know if republicans get rid of their health care, who done it?
REP. KAREN BASS (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, you know, I think first of all a lot of people think that Obamacare just covered people that didn`t have insurance. There`s a whole lot of parts to the plan that cover everybody, such as pre-existing conditions. Our health care caps. You know, I used to work in the emergency room in Los Angeles and the people that come to the emergency room or who came during those years were people who, one, had caps. In other words, I was on chemotherapy for two months, my insurance company said I hit my limit, they won`t cover my chemo anymore. Or somebody who had diabetes or hypertension and they couldn`t get health insurance so they come to the emergency room as a last resort. So if they get rid of Obamacare, those people will be back flooding emergency rooms and that`s one thing that has happened since ACA has been in place.
You`ve seen a decline of people who use the emergency room. Another thing is for prevention care. So you go and you have your colonoscopy. Well, you didn`t realize that with Obamacare, you now no longer pay for that colonoscopy. So if they get rid of Obamacare, you are going to have people complaining all over the place that, one, they didn`t have -- they don`t have coverage anymore, they`ve been cut off, they`ve been kicked off, and, two, the costs are going up because they`re -- they are paying for things they didn`t cover when they had Obamacare. People will realize the difference.
REID: Yeah, imagine people going into their doctors` offices and suddenly finding out they have a co-pay they didn`t have. Are democrats then going to make the connection? Because congresswoman, I got to tell you. One of the biggest criticisms of the party, even at the president, has been that when Obamacare was rolled out, democrats kind of walked away from it, some ran away from it, but never really explained to people what Obamacare is. A lot of people have what they had connect and in Kentucky and didn`t know that it was Obamacare.
BASS: I agree.
REID: Are the democrats going to do something concrete, meaning to run ads, meaning have specific stories showing, so that people know no, no, no, when you`re getting that co-pay, that was Obamacare?
BASS: Exactly, that`s absolutely right. And I agree with you. The other thing that I don`t think that we pointed out is that Obamacare has been a jobs plan. So when you talk about cutting off Obamacare, you are talking about serious layoffs in -- that are going to happen in hospitals because rural hospitals have had to depend on it. And a lot of these hospitals are in republican states. And so, I think the pain is going to be very wide and very deep and it is going to be our responsibility to make it very, very specific. I can tell you that my phones in the capital and in my district office were flooded today with people calling up and saying, well, is my insurance going to be cut off now? Am I going to have to pay for this? Well you know, I`ve had cancer, you know the only way I`ve been able to get health care is because of Obamacare so when the faucet is shut off, I believe the pain is going to be deep, it`s going to be wide and it is our responsibility to make sure that everybody understands who is responsible.
REID: Yeah, it`s pretty pointed that the three states you guys are starting off are in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and one West Virginia. Think about those coal miners` benefits for their black lung. That`s Obamacare.
REID: All right, I want to ask you a quick question on your way out. Mitch McConnell had a pretty interesting-- we`ll take a quick U-turn for a moment. Mitch McConnell had a little pretty interesting quote today that I want to play for you, and it`s about another thing that republicans have been holding up, and that`s the Supreme Court seat, which they held open for a very long time because they didn`t think Barack Obama as president had the right to make a nomination. Take a look at Mitch McConnell talking about democrats pretention holding up a Supreme Court nominee of Donald Trump`s.
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SEN. MITCH MCCONELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEAER: Apparently, you had a new standard now, which is do not confirm a Supreme Court nominee at all. I think that`s something the American people simply will not tolerate.
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BASS: I mean, I can`t believe that he actually even said that when he was the one that said that they were not going to even have hearings, confirmation hearings. Well you know what, I`m very proud of the senate. I hope they hold that line. The idea that Trump, I mean, if his cabinet is any example as to who he would put forward would be on the Supreme Court, it would be disastrous. And I can see that protections that we`ve had in our country for decades being rolled back, so I think it`s a great stand. We need to emulate what the republicans did in 2016.
REID: Yeah, I -- that had nothing do with Obamacare, I just want to give you a chance to hear him say that and get your response. Congresswoman Karen Bass, thank you for your time tonight. I appreciate it.
BASS: Thanks for having me on.
REID: All right, joining me now, Democratic Strategist Jess McIntosh and Anton Gunn, who is a healthcare strategist extraordinaire. I`m going to come to you first on this, Jess, because here`s the thing. Republicans have been saying for so long that they`re going to repeal, repeal or replace, repeal and replace. It`s -- a catch phrase but they never had a risk of ever having to do it because they always had Barack Obama to save them from themselves.
JESS MCINTOSH, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Right.
REID: Now that they have to do it, do you think they will actually go forward?
MCINTOSH: You know I don`t. I think the republicans really like to govern by catch phrase because they don`t actually like to govern. The reason why the president spent so much political capital putting the Affordable Care Act and remember how long and awful it was to be a democrat working on the Hill at that moment, that was, that was really intense. He did that, we all did that, because it mattered so much. Because we cared so much about making sure that millions of Americans got insurance who didn`t have it before. We cared about fixing that problem because democrats believe the government can fix certain problems that need to be fixed. Republicans don`t share that belief, at least the republicans today don`t. They don`t believe that government is a solution to the problems that America is facing. So they, they obstruct.
They, they use this catch phrase obstructionism and that`s how they brand their party. Their party is very little more than a brand right now. Now, we have to see them actually implement these tenets. No one is going to be spending political capital to get this done. No one is going to put their name on we`re going to have the replace package here, and if Trump decides to start tweeting that the republicans in congress are doing it wrong, they`re going to turn around and run away faster than it will make his head spin.
REID: Well -- the thing is, there once was a republican health care plan. It`s called Obamacare.
MCINTOSH: Yeah, they did that.
REID: So since democrats took their plan, right, and there isn`t a new plan on the table, they keep saying "oh no, we`ve got a secret plan, we`ve got a secret plan", what would be the political you know, importer, or political -- what are the incentive to go through the same senate finance process that we saw democrats go through, to go through that excruciating public horrible process of trying to reconfigure the entire American health care system in public? Would that help republicans at all politically?
MCINTOSH: No, I mean, it certainly didn`t help democrats politically and-- especially when democrats had to do it while republicans were standing there yelling "death penal and you`re going to push grandma off a cliff". If we go back to a system where, like congresswoman bass was saying "chemo patients are kicked off their insurance after a couple sessions", that is an actual death penal. That you really will have Americans saying I can`t afford life-saving treatment.
MCINTOSH: So you`re going to do it under the guise of real stories being told. It`s not going to be a talking point. It`s not going to be a Sarah Palin blog post. It`s going to be actual Americans who live in the states that these people are supposed to be representing. So there`s this, this other layer that they have to get through which is the political perception of what happens when they yank health care away from millions of Americans who need it.
REID: Well, then there`s the part two, because the thing republicans are actually quite good at is the atmospherics, it`s the staging. And they were able to create this thing called the tea party that started about calling homeowners deadbeats if they couldn`t pay their mortgages but suddenly became this really well-funded faux grass-roots kind of thing, which just went after health care every minute, every minute. It had all the optics that you needed. Do you see evidence that democrats can figure out how to message discipline, get an-you know, adds on the air and actually do the mechanics of politicking?
MCINTOSH: I don`t think that we can replicate the republican strategy because we are bound by principle and we are bound by an ideology that government is supposed to do good for the people that it`s-represented to, or that it`s elected to represent. I don`t think that we can have a Democratic Tea Party. That said, I think that we can do a much better job of sloganeering and running ads and telling real people stories. It`s not about getting everybody to wear shirts that`s say "Make America Sick Again". It`s making sure America knows the real-life consequences to their families and neighbors of what republicans are trying to do. That`s the democratic mandate.
REID: And I do believe now we have Anton Gunn, a health care strategist who used to be with the Department of Health and Human Services. So Anton, let`s talk about sort of the practical things, what democrats would actually be showing the country is happening as ObamaCare is rolled back. Can you talk about how -- can you possibly unwind this law without -- and leave in place, let`s say, leaving somebody who`s 26 on your insurance? Can you do both those things?
ANTON GUNN, HEALTH CARE STRATEGIST AND FORMER HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS AT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: You can`t do both things. See, the biggest problem is most people have no full understanding of all the incredible things the Affordable Care Act has done over the last six years because they`re not having the conversation with the right people. If you talk to any CEO that runs a large hospital in any major metropolitan area, whether you`re talking about Detroit, in Henry Ford, or you`re talking about Tulane Medical Center, these are major health care systems who are taking care of the people who now have coverage because of the Affordable Care Act. These are people who are getting treatment for very important life-saving conditions that will all go away if they try to undo this law.
So, you can`t just say you want to do one part and can`t do the other because there`s so many benefits beyond the insurance. We love to talk about the under 26. We love to talk about a 20 million people who now have coverage. But what about the mom who had a baby and was finally covered after her first child wasn`t covered at all and she had to pay out of pocket $17,000 because her pregnancy was considered a pre-exist condition? What about the father who didn`t get a double bypass when he need it and passed away because he didn`t have health insurance coverage? These people are now getting treatment all across the country and so you can`t undo parts of it. You can`t undo the fact that we`ve improved the quality of care that people received in healthcare because the ACA put so much more of framework around delivering value for people who are using health care services, improving doctors` ability to deliver care at a higher quality so that people can actually get better faster and live the lives that they want and deserve.
So, all of this conversation around we got multiple plans. Well, if you`ve got multiple plans, that means you don`t have a plan at all. And so you can`t repeal the ACA and leave this gaping hole in a health care system that has been reformed, I mean, it`s almost like the conversation about whether you should eat broccoli and spinach. Everybody knows broccoli and spinach is good for you. And what the republicans are trying to get us to do is understand that we don`t need broccoli and spinach, they want to give us a happy meal box, but they`re not going to tell us what`s in the happy meal box. But what I`m clear about, broccoli and spinach is good for you whether you like it or not and happy meals are not good for you at all. So we got to get beyond this conversation and the rhetoric and get deeper into what the law is actually doing to save people`s lives.
REID: But here`s the thing, because, you know, happy meals are really well advertised as well. I mean, Anton, very quickly, why didn`t the administration advertise all these great things years and years ago so that people felt the value and understood the value of the Affordable Care Act. I mean, you have southern states that are letting rural hospitals close rather than take the expansion of Medicaid because they`ve been able to convince their own citizens who are suffering that it`s better to suffer than have Obamacare. Why wasn`t all this message rolled out before?
GUNN: Well, see, that`s the funny thing. We did roll all of these messages out before. We spent a lot of time doing it. But the problem is, when you spend a billion dollars trying to confuse, distract and dissipate the whole idea that health care reform needed to be done and the benefits of the law, it`s hard to fight those messages. When you have members of congress that are willing to go on television and radio shows and tell bold-face lies about the, you know, what the Affordable Care Act is but have no clue about it, it`s hard to beat against that. And we did everything in our power to try to convey those messages but frankly most of the American public didn`t want to hear those messages. They`re into the catch phrases, as we heard, they`re into the 142nd characters, but it`s hard to talk about payment reform and delivery system reform in 140 characters. It`s hard to talk about in a snapshot and a sound bite.
But it`s easy to talk about it when you talk to a family who`s gotten life- saving treatment at a place where they were uninsured five years ago. They walked into the emergency room. They could not get treatment that they needed but now they`re getting care and they`re getting better. And so I`ve talked to these CEOs and health systems, I`ve talked to the leaders who run hospitals, I work with a lot them and they believe the Affordable Care Act means a whole lot to them and it`s allowing them the opportunity to do what they do best, and that is to save lives. And I`m not talking one or two lives, I`m talking tens of millions of lives in cities all across the country.
REID: Yeah, well we do know for certain that now, that the uninsured rate in 2009 was 16.4 percent, now it`s 10.9 percent. I wish we had more time, one word answer for each of you Anton and Jess, yes or no, do republicans fully repeal and not replace the Affordable Care Act or do they repeal and replace it? Yes or no do they repeal it, Anton?
GUNN: They`re going to repeal it. I believe they`ll do that. Yes.
REID: All right, bold prediction from Jess McIntosh. Anton Gunn and Jess McIntosh, thanks to both of you.
And still ahead, Obamacare is just one of the battles democrats are preparing for in the Trump era. Up next, California takes bold moves to brace for the incoming President, recruiting a former U.S. Attorney General. And later, Donald Trump`s self-imposed deadline for repealing allegedly new information on the Russian hacking has come and gone.
The incoming president escalated his fight today with his own intelligence agencies, meanwhile. So inside Donald Trump`s love affair with WikiLeaks ahead.
REID: Opponents of Donald Trump, particularly frustrated liberals, are looking for ways to properly channel their anger and their deep foreboding into a strategy for fighting back. Not just against Trump but against also the 115th congress which is likely to make their agenda, Trump`s agenda, along with threatening even cherished programs like Medicare. And perhaps the strongest challenge comes from the world`s sixth-largest economy -- the state of California. Already, the University of California System has said that it would fight Trump on immigration. U.C. President, Janet Napolitano, said in a statement last month that the university would "vigorously protect the privacy and civil rights of the undocumented members of the U.C. Community".
And Governor Jerry Brown has vowed to challenge any attempt to -- by Trump to interfere with climate science. But today, in what appears to be a rather exceptional move, the state legislature hired Barack Obama`s former Attorney General Eric Holder to represent them in any legal fights against the new republican White House. It`s a move that seems to signal that California is poised to become America`s liberal front line against the incoming President.
And joining me now is Kevin de Leon, California`s Senate leader. So Kevin, explain to us the process or the decision to hire Eric Holder and how that different -- differences from having or how that`s different from having an attorney general?
KEVIN DE LEON, CALIFORNIA`S SENATE PRESIDENT: Well, thank you very much, Joy, for the invitation. It`s an honor to be here with each and every one of you. I will say right now that we`re confronting a dichotomy of democracy. Where it appears that, it`s something unique in our history, and it appears that the most overt opponent to our state of the state appears to be the incoming head of state, and that is the President-elect, Donald J. Trump. Given the campaign rhetoric, one of the most bruising and controversial polemic and polarizing campaigns in modern political history, we actually thought perhaps this is just campaign rhetoric.
But it`s very clear that our worst fears were being confirmed. After he`s appointed individuals to head up HHS that want to dismantle and eviscerate the Affordable Care Act. When the Kris Kobach, the chief architect of of senate bill 1050 of Arizona is one of his close political counselors and we have someone like Jeff Sessions to be the nominee of the Department of Justice, that sent a very clear message to us in California that these individuals would be -- would pose a clear and present danger to the economic prosperity and the well-being of the values and the people of California. So that`s why we have secured the legal services of the recent former attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder. We`re very proud that he will be representing us, providing legal strategy and counsel and he`ll be working very closely with the incoming attorney general as a legal team. I think the more legal firepower the better for the state of California and for the people of California.
REID: Well, it`s certainly unprecedented. And of course Xavier Becerra is going to be the attorney general replacing Kamala Harris. So, you walked us through, why Holder? Tell us what, from California`s point of view, are, let`s say the three most pressing issues. The things you`re most worried about. You ticked off a few, but what are the three areas of greatest concern for Californian?
DE LEON: Three areas of greatest concern in California obviously is health care, the ACA. We have 6.5 million Californians of every single hue, every geographical area in the state, who had benefitted greatly from the ACA. If, in fact, Tom Price and Donald Trump moves forward by eviscerating, and the republicans in--on the Hill by eviscerating the ACA, you`ll have 6.5 million Californians who will no longer have any access to any type of health care. This is equal to a middle-class tax increase on Californians who have to foot the bill for people end up in the emergency rooms for their care. That is the big issue. And that would be a big economic blow for California, because we have roughly about 200,000 jobs in the health care service industry that directly related to ACA.
Second thing, is climate change, environmental protections, the clean air that we breathe into our lungs, the clean water that our children drink every single day. If they roll back regulations and actually dirty our air with more harmful toxic pollutants, people are going to get sick, especially children. And lastly--
REID: The third thing?
DE LEON: The third thing is separating children from their mothers which is massive deportations. Expanding the criteria of who is a violent criminal felon and actually making mothers and nannies, you know, criminal felons and separating children from their mothers. So those are three big issues for us in California.
REID: Yeah, well, Kevin de Leon, one out of eight Americans live in California, sixth-largest economy in the world. So it could have a huge effect on the rest of the country. As California goes, so maybe goes the nation. Kevin de Leon, thank you very much for being with us.
DE LEON: Thank you very much.
REID: And coming up, why Donald Trump would take the word of Julian Assange over U.S. intelligence. A look at Trump`s recent love for WikiLeaks after this quick break.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Russia give you this information or anybody associated with Russia?
JULIAN ASSANGE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF WIKILEAKS: Our force is not a state party so the answer for our interactions is no.
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REID: WikiLeaks Chief Julian Assange in an interview on fox news last night, denying the Russian government was the source of thousands of hacked Democratic Party emails released by Wikileaks during the campaign. Notably, Assange specifically rules out that his source was a quote "state party". Meaning, he didn`t exactly say the leaks had no connection to Russia.
Nevertheless, his denial seems to have impressed one Donald J. Trump who used his favorite means of communications to state this morning -- to state this morning, "Julian Assange said, a 14-year-old could have hacked Podesta," Hillary Clinton`s campaign chair -- who is Hillary Clinton`s campaign chair, "why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!"
One might ask why the soon to be President of the United States would take the word of the guy, said to have leaked stolen American emails over the conclusions of the entire U.S. Intelligence Community, delivered with utter unanimity and about as much as certainty as you can get in matters like these. By the way, today was the day that Trump said that he would reveal his own secret information about the hacks, still no word on that. And this isn`t the first time that Trump has appeared to favor Assange and his organization. During the campaign, he repeatedly hailed Wikileaks for releasing information that hurt his opponent, Hillary Clinton.
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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT: This just came out. This just came out. Wikileaks, I love Wikileaks. Wikileaks has provided things that are unbelievable. Boy, that Wikileaks has done a job on her, hasn`t it? Oh, we love Wikileaks. Boy, they have really -- Wikileaks. Wikileaks. Wikileaks.
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REID: But it was just a few short years ago that Trump was singing a very different tune. In 2010, Wikileaks released hundreds of thousands of military communications and diplomatic cables which, at the time, were seen as damaging to the U.S. Trump was asked about it backstage at Fox News.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He claims it will be on, he`ll talk about Wikileaks. You had nothing to do with Wikileaks.
TRUMP: No, but I think it`s disgraceful. I think there should be death penalty or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Same goes for Fox News host, Sean Hannity, who flew all the way to the U.K. this week to interview Assange at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London where the Australian has been living since granted asylum there in 2012. Assange still faces extradition to Sweden on charges of rape and sexual assault.
Hannity has been full of praise for his interview subject, including once telling Assange "I do hope you get free one day." But it was a very different story back in 2010 when he devoted an entire segment to questioning why the Obama administration had yet to put Assange behind bars.
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SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST "HANNITY": These are real lives that are now in jeopardy and in danger. That was step one. Then 390,000 other documents were released, many of them classified documents and now we have this. What is -- why? Why didn`t they go after this guy? Why didn`t they arrest him? Why didn`t they stop this from being published when we had so much time to do it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Even Sarah Palin, who was herself hacked by Wikileaks in 2008 and who later called Assange, quote, "An anti-American operative with blood on his hands" even she did an about-face today, actually apologizing to Assange on her Facebook page. She apologized.
Not even -- not every Republican is jumping on the Wikileaks bandwagon. Today House Speaker Paul Ryan called Julian Assange, quote, "A sycophant for Russia." Well, Senator Lindsey Graham had a forceful message for Donald Trump.
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SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I hope the president-elect will get his information and trust the American patriots who work in the intelligence community who swear oath and allegiance to the Constitution and not some guy hiding from the law who has a record of undercutting and undermining American democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Tonight, a new report suggests Trump`s friction with the intelligence community is not just rhetorical. The president-elect`s plans for the U.S. top spy agency next.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You take on the intelligence community they have six ways from Sunday of getting back at you. So even for a practical supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he`s being really dumb to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think the intelligence community would do if they were motivated to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know, but from what I am told they are very upset about how he has treated them and talked about them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: I`m joined by Congressman Adam Schiff, Democrat from California, and a ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thank you for being here.
I will pick up and ask you the same question that my colleague Rachel Maddow asked Chuck Schumer. You sit on the Intelligence Committee, what has been the reaction of the leaders of the intelligence community to just being essentially spurned by the incoming president?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: I think people are really incredulous that he continues to take the side of the kremlin that essentially he disregards what the intelligence community has to say of the enormous consensus among the intelligence agencies that basically because the facts are at odds with his own preferred version of events, he is going to shun and ignore what the intelligence community has to say.
I`m running out of adjectives and expletives to describe the situation. It`s really so appalling and here he is taking the side of Julian Assange, you know, I think what it does show more than anything else is that in Donald Trump`s world, you`re for him or against him. Here during the campaign what the Russians did was helpful, he`s not going to bite the hand that fed him and what Wikileaks did was helpful and so he`s going to praise them, but as you saw in those clips that you played of Sean Hannity before and after, Donald Trump before and after, there`s no consistency here at all far from it. One final point I would make because I think the president spoke to this so eloquently during his press conference a couple weeks ago, what we are seeing here is such a hyper-partisan environment within the GOP that they are willing to overlook all the qualms that they have about Russia over the last half century or more. They`re willing to overlook the way that Julian Assange has endangered our national interests. If it`s good for the Republicans and bad for the Democrats and that is a terrible development in our democracy.
REID: Congressman, do you get the sense that is lasting? That Republicans and Donald Trump are going to continue to have this fealty or to give Russia a huge pass on even spying on American and hacking into American e- mails and give Assange a huge pass? Do you think that`s lasting or do you think it`s temporary because they don`t want Donald Trump`s election to seem invalidated?
SCHIFF: I think it`s temporary because a lot of the members of the House and some in the Senate have districts or states where Trump is more popular than they are, they`re still afraid of their own shadow, but you have courageous GOP member who are speaking out, people like McCain who are not going to sit idly by while Trump takes actions that are unamicable to our national security and cozy up to the kremlin. I think others will find their voice too.
REID: Congressman, in closing, there is a report in the "Wall Street Journal," they`re reporting the incoming Trump administration is looking to actually make serious restructuring, a change both the director of National Intelligence Office to essentially cut it and also make changes and restructuring to the CIA.
Cutting back on staffing at the Virginia headquarters, moving people into field posts, that kind of thing. That seems alarming and a response, maybe, to what Donald Trump doesn`t believe or believes from the intelligence agency. What do you make of those proposals?
SCHIFF: I think that`s exactly right. If this "Wall Street Journal" report is accurate, under the guise, ironically, of saying we want to depoliticize the office of the director of National Intelligence or the CIA, what the president-elect would be doing is exactly the opposite, would be politicizing it, would be effectively punishing the intelligence agencies for speaking the truth. Punishing them for speaking out about Russian interference in our democracy. That would be a terrible step.
REID: Yes, it would certainly be unprecedented. Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much.
SCHIFF: Thank you.
REID: Thank you. Coming up, top celebrities are making big plans for inauguration day -- to do just about anything but attend the actual event. Why Donald Trump can`t stand the celebrity snubs, ahead.
Plus, tonight`s "Thing 1 and Thing 2" starts right after this break so stick around. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) REID: "Thing 1" tonight, after congressional Republicans ill-fated attempt to gut the House Office of Congressional Ethics, we`ve heard a lot about the cases of corruption both large and small that Congress`s independent watchdog has investigated over the years.
Today, we learned some interesting details about a hair-raising investigation by the oversight office that involves a GOP congressman and his pet rabbit. That story is "Thing 2" in 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) REID: Just yesterday, the House Office of Congressional Ethics survived an 11th-hour attempt by the new Republican Congress to gut its oversight powers. Already we`re seeing the benefits of having a watchdog overseeing the behavior of those in Congress.
For the past year, the OCE had been investigating Congressman Duncan Hunter, that`s him vaping during a congressional hearing, for misuse of campaign funds. The investigation into Congressman Hunter`s alleged misuse of funds has been public for some time now. But thanks to a comment made by his office in response to questions about the OCE, we now know that one of the things Representative Hunter was specifically being investigated for was spending $600 of his campaign`s money on, quote, "in cabin rabbit transport fees." In other words, the congressman spent $600 in campaign donations on airfare for his family`s pet rabbit. Rascally. Now a spokesperson for Representative Hunter`s office told a local paper that the $600 rabbit ride was mistakenly charged to his campaign account and that might be true. But how to explain some other expenses that the OCE as well as the Federal Elections Commission have been investigating? Expenses like $1,300 in steam video games spent over the course of two months. Another alleged mistake his office blamed on his teenaged son or how about nearly $300 in food from Jack-In-The-Box. Also a mistake. The $1,200 in utility bill payments, also a mistake. The list of mistakes goes on and on. So far, the congressman has yet to repay his campaign upwards of $49,000 and the full report is set to come out some time soon, perhaps forcing the poor Hunter family rabbit to fly coach. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (VIDEO CLIP)
REID: So for all his efforts to sell himself as a supremely successful businessman and author of books on being a successful businessman, Donald Trump has always sold himself as a celebrity, a showman. That`s been a very important part of his persona to who he thinks he is.
Why else would he star in "The Apprentice" and "Celebrity Apprentice?" And it clearly bothers him that having attain it had presidency he feels he`s being robbed of the celebrity praise and affection he feels his new standing deserves. The frustration was showing when Trump tweeted "Jackie Evancho`s album sales have skyrocketed after announcing her inauguration performance. Some people just don`t understand the movement." Although what Trump calls skyrocketing others call a bump that coincided with a TV appearance that she had made. The 16-year-old`s "America`s Got Talent Season 5" runner-up is one of the few entertainers who have accepted an invite to perform at the Trump inauguration. So has country band, "Big and Rich," and now with his inauguration just 16 days away, Trump can really start fuming about comparisons to his predecessor, President Barack Obama, who had performers like Aretha Franklin sing at his actual inauguration. And at the inaugural concert had Denzel Washington, Bruce Springsteen, Mary J. Blige, Tom Hanks, Garth Brooks, and U2, and that`s literally naming just a handful of the huge superstars from his first and second inaugurations. Beyonce, by the way, Queen Bey was involved in both Obama inaugurations, both. When we return, Donald Trump is feeling disrespected. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: The harsh truth is there is reverse McCarthyism going on in the entertainment industry. The evidence is there`s nobody booked.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: Because they don`t want to --
O`REILLY: It`s two weeks away.
KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: They don`t want to play for Donald Trump.
KRAUTHAMMER: This is a republic.
KRAUTHAMMER: You are not summoned to perform for the king or for the dictator. In some places if Kim Jong-Un calls you to sing you better show up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Celebrities refusing to participate in the Trump inauguration is getting plenty of attention. Joining me now, Nancy Jiles, a contributor for CBS News "60 Minutes" --
NANCY GILES, CONTRIBUTOR, CBS "SUNDAY MORNING": Sunday morning.
REID: That`s right. And Randal Pinkett, winning contestant on "The Apprentice," which was hosted by one Donald J. Trump. Thank you for being here. I have added you to other shows.
GILES: I love it.
REID: Correct your check. I`ll go to you first, Nancy, on this. It`s a bitter shad and fruid (ph), I am sure, of people in the left that Donald Trump cannot pull celebrities the way Barack Obama did or really George W. Bush did for his inauguration. But is there anything to this idea put forward, let`s give him a break --
GILES: The Bill O`Reilly idea?
REID: It`s not that they don`t want to perform for Donald Trump, but they`re afraid that somehow the left will destroy them.
GILES: No, there`s nothing to it. And who would have ever thought in the history of my life I`d be sitting here with the two of you saying I agree with Charles Krauthammer. That`s really weird.
Bill O`Reilly is locked in the `50s where at that time the studio heads did have a lot of power and there were fears of being on the wrong list or accused of being a communist and people lost work and did control their talent. Now come on, the stars control things way more than the studios do and it`s a funny thing. If you start your campaign by saying Mexicans are drug dealers and rapists, if you say things to black people like your lives are hell, what do you have to lose? If you say mean things about women, about grabbing their body parts and saying that`s all right, it might offend people and make them not necessarily want to lend their talents to your presidency. It`s weird, isn`t it?
REID: Who`d have thunk it? Randall, the other spin coming out of Trump
world is that Donald Trump doesn`t want those people, he wants the people. He wants Jackie Evancho because she`s the movement. Do you -- knowing Donald Trump, having worked with Donald Trump and been on the show with him, do you think it`s legit that he really doesn`t care whether celebrities show up?
RANDAL PINKETT, FORMER WINNER, "THE APPRENTICE": No, no Donald`s ego is damaged right now. It`s bruised and an ego that can fill the room, right. So there`s no mystery that he wants the most famous inaugural celebration and he has to be fuming right now and what I`ve heard is we know Mark Burnett is producing the inauguration.
REID: Who produced "The Apprentice."
PINKETT: And he brought in Suzanne Bender, a former "Dancing with the Stars" and "American Idol" producer at the last minute to pull off a Hail Mary to try to get some celebrities to sign on because they`ve had such a difficult time doing it. So I know Donald`s ego feeds off celebrity. It fed off "The Apprentice," it fed off "Celebrity Apprentice" and he`s not happy with the way things stand --
REID: What do you think he`s blaming it? Do you think that Donald Trump is capable of admitting that maybe the kind of campaign he ran and attacks on these groups offend people in the arts community who have lots of LGBT people and people of color?
PINKETT: Yes, I don`t think Donald will give the entertainment community the credit they deserve from the standpoint I think people are really standing on principle and you could look at the opportunity that they might have to gain favor with Donald, we`ve seen that with the auto industry.
And for them to decline in my opinion when the opportunity to perform at the inauguration has always been considered an honor, to decline that means you must be standing on principle because you could have incredible publicity.
REID: And Nancy, what do you think it says on the other side of it that there has been so much cohesion in the arts community in opposing Trump?
GILES: I`m happy to hear that. It gives me hope because it`s been a hopeless kind of time for me since the election and I`m glad to know people that are creative and open and want to express themselves and create art and move this world forward in many ways are united against hateful speech. At the very least, even if it turns out he doesn`t believe anything he said he still ran his campaign on smut, basically, smack.
GILES: And that don`t play with the arts.
REID: Yes, indeed. And I have to ask you before we go, Randal, there`s been a big sort of to-do about Talladega`s marching band, a historically black college, their band was supposed to perform, a lot of alumni are not happy about it, it`s in my social media feed. The president said the school hadn`t decided. Do you know whether they`ll perform?
PINKETT: The last report I got was that the Talladega marching band will perform at the inauguration. There was a big debate amongst alumni and students, many on the side of saying the school should not perform because it would give the appearance of support of the president, which is the big issue we`re talking about and the last report I heard is they will perform.
REID: Well, we shall see because there won`t be a lot of them. There are no D.C. bands. Nancy Giles and Randal Pinkett, thank you both. That is all for ALL IN this evening.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END