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All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 11/29/2016

Guests: Avik Roy, Sam Seder, Nina Turner, Joan Walsh, Mandela Barnes

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: November 29, 2016 Guest: Avik Roy, Sam Seder, Nina Turner, Joan Walsh, Mandela Barnes

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: You cannot let people die on the street, OK? Now, some people say that`s not a very republican thing to say.

HAYES: Donald Trump`s latest cabinet pick sets up an epic showdown over Obamacare and Medicare. Tonight, democrats draw new battle lines for what could be the first big fight for the Trump White House. Then, from his newly announced victory rallies to lashing out at reporters to threatening to revoke the citizenship of protesters, Donald Trump is already abandoning efforts to unite the nation.

TRUMP: Now, it`s time for America to bind the wounds of division.

HAYES: Plus, new concerns over Sheriff David Clarke`s place in Trump`s cabinet. Then, previewing tomorrow`s big vote on democratic leadership.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: We have a responsibility to find common ground but to stand our ground when we can`t.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Breaking news tonight, NBC news confirms that Donald Trump will announce two more cabinet picks as soon as tomorrow. According to a top transition source, Steven Mnuchin, he`s a Wall Street veteran and Goldman Sachs alum, and serve as National Finance Chairman for Trump`s campaign, who`s expected to be named treasury secretary. While Wilbur Ross, a billionaire investor, is expected to be named Secretary of the Department of Commerce. A man who ran for office on a pledge to "drain the swamp" of globalists, elitists and insiders, now seems to be doing his utmost to fill it to the brim.

Meanwhile, Trump is currently at dinner with Mitt Romney at a Ritzy Manhattan restaurant. We`ll keep you posted if they make any news. It`s not unusual, of course, for campaign promises to fall by the weight side, once the candidate gets down to the business of governing, but with his latest nominations, today, particularly those related to health care, Donald Trump may be in the midst of pulling off the biggest bait and switch in recent political memory. First, let`s revisit debate. Throughout the campaign going all the way back to the primaries, Trump indicated that while he`d repeal the Affordable Care Act. He`d take a different approach to health care than most republicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You cannot let people die on the street, OK? Now, some people will say, that`s not a very republican thing to say. I say, you know, the problem is, everybody thinks that you people as republicans, hate the concept of taking care of people that are really, really sick and are going to die. That`s not single payer, by the way, that`s called heart. We got to take care of people that can`t take care of themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Among a crowded field of 17 GOP candidates, this was one of Trump`s main selling points in distinguishing features. He favored protections for people with pre-existing conditions and he wouldn`t do anything, something he reiterated time and time and time again, to cut popular programs like Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, what republicans refer to as entitlements.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You know, a lot of these guys, they want to cut your Social Security. They want to lower -- they want to do things to your Social Security and your Medicare and your Medicaid. You can`t do it. It`s not fair. You`ve been paying into it. We`re not going to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Not fair, can`t do it. That position is still there at this very moment, @donaldjtrump.com, why Donald Trump won`t touch your entitlements. Of course, Trump was the candidate that republican primary voters ultimately picked as their nominee. The rest is history, which brings us now to the switch. Earlier today, the Trump transition announced two new nominations, Georgia Congressman Tom Price for Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and Seema Verma, a consultant for administrator for Standards for Medicare and Medicaid services, a very important position. Now, Congressman Price`s position holds the distinction of being one of the few republican lawmakers to actually come up with an actual plan to replace Obamacare.

A bill euphemistically titled the Empowering Patients First Act. As controversial as Paul Ryan`s healthcare proposals have been, this one, from Congressman Price is even further to the right, it should be clear. Among other things, Price`s bill would let insurers charge more to patients with pre-existing conditions, if they have a gap in coverage of 18 months or more, it would give out tax credits based on age bracket. The older you are, the more you get with no adjustments for income, as in the Ryan plan which does. Meaning 61-year-old Bill Gates will get more government health than a 19-year-old single mom living below the poverty line. And Price`s bill would simply eliminate the Medicaid expansion, a program that covers millions of people, replacing it with nothing.

And as the current chairman of the house budget committee, Price has also backed Ryan`s plan to privatize Medicare, telling reporters a couple of weeks ago, that he expects Republicans in the house to move on Medicare reforms six to eight months into the Trump administration. It`s pretty clear that the Affordable Care Act has some problems that need fixing, but the one unequivocal success of that law, is that it has expanded insurance coverage to about 20 million people in this country. Since 2013, the uninsured rate has plummeted by almost 40 percent to an all-time low of just 10 percent in the first quarter of 2016. For the first time, 90 percent of Americans have health care coverage. Those gains appear to have been especially pronounced among low-income whites without a college degree, the same demographic that form the key part of Trump`s coalition.

According to The Washington Post`s Greg Sargent, the unissued rate for non- college-educated whites with household incomes under $36,000, fell by 10 percentage points over the last three years from 25 percent to 15 percent. If Obamacare is repealed and Congressman Price`s bill is signed into law, a lot of those same people, many of them, one of senior Trump voters, could lose their coverage. But as Chuck Schumer, the incoming senate minority leader signalled today, democrats aren`t going to let any of it happen without a fight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), INCOMING SENATE MINORITY LEADER: Between this nomination of an avowed Medicare opponent and Republicans here in Washington threatening to privatize Medicare? It`s clear that Washington Republicans are plotting a war on seniors. We say to our Republicans who want to privatize Medicare? Go try it. Make our day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: And joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Howard Dean, former DNC chair, also a physician. Avik Roy, President of the Foundation for Research and Equal Opportunity who advised and helped Mitt Romney on healthcare policy in 2012.

And Avik, let me start with you, because I think this is a fascinating, sort of, substance in civil war brewing. And before we get to the merits of Price`s plan or Ryan`s plan, would you say there is some real inherent intention between the rhetoric of Donald Trump, the promises he made across the board, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, which he was quick to point out, and the kind of vision of both Ryan and Price?

AVIK ROY, PRESIDENT FOR FOUNDATION FOR RESEARCH AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY: Yeah, I would say the way you summarize Trump`s policy point of view, he`s made three-key promises. One, I`m going to repeal or replace Obamacare. Two, I`m going to take care of everybody. This is a guy, as you note in your opening segment, who supports universal coverage. And he said he`s going to do it in a way that is less expensive, less costly than the ACA. Those thee policy objectives can be achieved. There are reform plans out there. The one that we published at the Foundation for Research and Equal Opportunity, we estimate would do that. And remember, the HHS secretary doesn`t write legislation.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: Right? That`s the job of congress. And not just both branches of congress, particularly the senate. You are going to have to get 60 votes in the senate to replace the ACA. So democrats are going to have a say.

HAYES: What`s fascinating to me here is the Medicare privatization angle of this. Because, you know, this is something that Paul Ryan has wanted to do forever. It was part of the Ryan budget, it`s been a dream of Republican think tanks, it`s been a dream of a whole bunch of folks in the senate right for a long time. If there`s one thing that there`s no mandate for, it`s that. I mean, Donald Trump specifically ran by saying, "This is not going to happen." It reminds me of the Bush Social Security fight in 2005.

HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST AND FORMER DNC CHAIR: That`s exactly right, Chris. It is the Bush Social Security fight in 2005. I would have to predict that this is never going to get out of the house, why? Because everybody who votes for this, is going to have an opponent who`s going to call them on it. Actually, this is the best possible way that you could get democrats to pick up more seats in 2018.

HAYES: It`s just a simple Medicare privatization?

DEAN: Yeah, I mean, this is - this basically takes Medicare away from hurt -- people who are hurting, and it gives breaks to people who aren`t, and this is insane. There is no constituency for this except among the right- wing think tank people in Washington.

HAYES: So, that`s my question to you, Avik, right? So the famous line of Barack Obama when selling the ACA, which Republicans have had sort of lorded over his head, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Even if that was sort of broadly conceptually true, in every individual instance, it was not, clearly, some people lost their doctors, right?

Can anyone who is going to undertake this massive change to American health care say, "Look, if you`ve got insurance now, you`re going to - you`re going to be insured." It seems like no one can actually credibly make that promise.

ROY: Well, actually, remember in 2010, when Republicans retook the majority in the house, they passed the Paul Ryan Medicare plan out of the house and they`ve done that every single year since then.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: And they haven`t lost their majority. They`ve retained it. So it`s not obvious to me that there is this huge political price for passing the Ryan plan out of the house.

HAYES: It`s one thing to pass the bill. It`s another one that bill becomes law, right?

ROY: Sure.

HAYES: So, there`s a very big difference in that Republicans who have spent eight years criticizing democrats` health care policy initiatives, criticizing the Affordable Care Act. If they are successful in changing things, they will own it and they will -- I would imagine, own it entirely.

ROY: Sure, but the one really important point about the Paul Ryan plan, it doesn`t change Medicare for anybody over the age of 55. It changes Medicare for people like you and me. And that`s the political genius of a plan, so to speak. It really doesn`t effect --

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: Or deviousness, depending on your interpretation.

DEAN: Well, except by the time we get through with them, it will change your - we`re going to, you know, I mean -

HAYES: Wait. Wait. Say what you`re going to say.

DEAN: By the time we get through with it, people over 65 are going to think it`s going to be attacking them.

HAYES: We, meaning democrats?

DEAN: Yeah. We`re not going to get - we`re not going to give anything a chance to explain this. This is going to be --

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: I like - I like Governor Dean announcing exactly how --

DEAN: Exactly what we`re going to do.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: I remember, Chris, being on your old weekend show in 2012 when Mitt Romney picked Paul Ryan as his running mate -

HAYES: Right.

ROY: -- and Rachel Maddow was sitting next to me saying, "Oh, this is going to be so awesome. The democrats are going to be-they`re going to be able to torch Romney with seniors." Romney won seniors. He did better with seniors than he did with any other age groups. So --

HAYES: Yeah. Although, I don`t think -but I - it`s interesting you say that, because I think -- here`s what I - here`s my theory of the case here. Donald Trump won that Republican primary because he rejected a whole bunch of orthodoxy on smaller government, on entitlements, on the - on, sort of, free markets and how free markets operate them. He ran as this sort of populist. He ran as this weird, sort of, big government quasi- authoritarian. It turned out the Republican base liked that. They don`t want Medicare cut, they probably don`t want Medicare privatized.

And now, the problem is that the entire institutional nature of the Republican majorities in both houses of congress and the think tank world and all the wonks are of the Price/Ryan/Avik Roy School, who`ve got all sorts of ideas about market competition making healthcare better. And they`re going to get a chance to try that out even though as Governor Dean says, there`s no actual political constituency for that.

ROY: I`m not so sure about that. I think that there is a political constituency for it. And I`m looking forward to that - to just to litigating that, right? I`m looking forward to seeing whether you`re right or whether I`m right about the mandate, or the potential for this kind of reform.

HAYES: Here`s what I`m not looking forward to, is a bunch of people getting kicked off Medicaid who are poor, struggling and who have coverage right now. And we know that that is part of the Price plan. It`s a big part of the sort of Republican agenda which has opposed Medicaid expansion in every particular --

DEAN: And that`s really interesting. We`re going to have a way of looking at that. Because in Kentucky, they have a hard-right governor who is visibly busy stripping his own constituents, the modest income white voters of their Medicaid.

HAYES: Yeah, in Kentucky -

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: They had the best rollout of the ACA under Steve Beshear of any state in the country, they have the best implementation, and their current governor, right-wing governor, is stripping it. And so, it`s going to be fascinating to see what price they pay. Now, they didn`t --

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: Maybe they won`t. I mean, this might be a test case of Avik`s point.

DEAN: They may not. But, you know, this is taking something from people they really need.

HAYES: Right.

DEAN: This is not -

HAYES: That, to me, Avik, the bigger thing here is, one thing we know about the politics of health care is, people don`t like disruption. Whatever -- whichever way that disruption moves in my ideological balance or direction. And now, if Republicans are really going to make good on the promise they made, they`re going to have to disrupt in some way, right?

ROY: Totally. Well, you know, the plan that I was talking about before, our plan at our Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, which is called Transcending Obamacare, that plan is exactly to your point. It`s all about being as gradual as possible at modernizing Medicare and Medicaid and the legacy health care system, making it more affordable for people. And it can be done. You know, to your point that you made earlier, again, we should emphasize this. Donald Trump supports universal coverage. In the very first presidential debate, he was asked by one of the moderators. Well, you support universal coverage. Why do you do that? And he said, "Well, yeah, I do." And he still won. So, I think --

HAYES: Yes.

ROY: -- the more ideological Republicans would say, "No, we don`t want to cover as many people as the ACA. They`re not going to hold its way. It`s going to be Donald Trump`s version of covering everybody that`s going to matter.

HAYES: And the question is, if he they could get all get to work together which I think is going to be tricky or -

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: You`re not going to get anything done in health care and/or coverage because it`s too expensive unless you get rid of fee for service medicine.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: -- to Tom Price - to Tom Price, it`s not on the side of that.

ROY: Doesn`t that involve changing Medicare power?

HAYES: All right.

DEAN: Yes, you`re going to have to do that. The private sectors are going to do it first -

HAYES: Right.

DEAN: -- which is, I think, the genius of ACA, is the ACO, which is going to do this with the private sector. They have to.

HAYES: Howard Dean and Avik Roy, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

DEAN: Thanks.

ROY: Thanks, buddy.

HAYES: All right. Still ahead, from suggesting flag burners should lose their citizenship to lashing out at the media for unfavorable coverage, is Donald Trump getting distracted from his plans to, "bind the wounds of division." That`s an actual Donald Trump quote. It was like 3:00 in the morning on election night. We`ll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Now it`s time for America to bind the wounds of division. We have to get together. To all republicans and democrats and independents across this nation, I say it is time for us to come together as one united people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Tonight, there are more signs that Donald Trump is losing that kumbaya spirit from election night or Election Day after morning. Three weeks ago, he`s pledging not to forget the forgotten men and women of our country. Last night, he was caught editing the tweet of a 16-year-old supporter to take a shot at a CNN reporter. Trump retweeted @filibuster, a self-described 16-year-old Oakland raiders fan, quote, "Pathetic -- you have no sufficient evidence that Donald Trump did not suffer from voter fraud, shame! Bad reporter." But as @filibuster himself hastened to point out, his original tweet did not include the ad hominem bad reporter. Quote, "Dishonest CNN is blaming me for calling Jeff Zeleny a bad reporter. Donald Trump added that to the end of the tweet, not me. Thank you." And this morning, Trump caused a bit of a stir by suggesting their - the consequences for flag burners, perhaps loss of citizenship or a year in jail. Just a small point, those are wildly divergent penalties, just to be clear.

There was immediate speculation that Trump`s tweet about flag burning was part of an ongoing grand design to distract the public from more on flattering stories such as the growing concerns about Trump`s unprecedented conflicts of interest or his pick for HHS Secretary, may take away health insurance from millions of poor people. The real reason appears to be far more mundane, that Trump simply saw a story on Fox News about students at a college in Massachusetts who allegedly burned a flag. With ABC Reporter Katherine Faulders pointed out, "Timing of Trump`s tweet lines up with Fox segment at 6:25 a.m. on students burning the flag."

Meanwhile, Trump is about to embark on a so-called "Thank You Tour", beginning Thursday in Cincinnati of the state that he won. A trip that was originally dubbed a quote, "Victory Tour". Joining me now, Sam Seder, Host, The Majority Report, and MSNBC Contributor. And here`s what I find fascinating, when democrats win, there`s immediately this sort of call that they have to like reach across and like hail the division. There was a little bit of that in 2012, right, like after a whole republican autopsy, like you can`t lose these groups anymore, Latinos by the margins and still win election. This time you got a guy who has got the biggest - who`s got the biggest loss in the popular vote since Ruther B. Hayes in 1876, and it`s just doubling down hard on that base, with there is no sense that he`s reaching out and no pressure to do so.

SAM SEDER, THE MAJORITY REPORT HOST AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: No, none. I mean, look, the whole idea of mandates, I`ve always found to be really worthless.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: Yeah, right. You win or you don`t win. You have power or you don`t have power.

SEDER: We hear a lot about mandates. There`s no such thing. There never was. No one has ever been constrained that way and no one has operated on to that. It is really baked into the cake as to who --

HAYES: That`s right.

SEDER: -- the politicians are. I mean, I think that the fact that he just fired off his tweet after watching a Fox News segment is really the most telling thing about this. I don`t think there`s any strategy. I don`t think there`s any sense of like I`m not healing the country, I am healing the country. I just get the sense that, honestly, like, the transition is moving forward, there`s a whole sort of shadow -- not a shadow of government -- there`s a whole government in waiting that is operating, and he`s just sitting in the corner, watching T.V. and his job is to sit there and occasionally not tweet, and then he gets allowed to tweet, and god knows what`s happening there. But, I mean, if this is what the guy is doing, I don`t think there`s any grand plan. I think there`s just other people doing stuff, and him sort of, like, well, as long as, you know, he stays out on the porch.

HAYES: And here`s what`s amazing about it, to me, is that, you know, there`s the famous wedge issue memo Patrick Buchanan wrote Nixon back in the 60s, basically saying we would cleave the country in half, but we get the bigger half, right? We have got the situation where it`s the same wedge, in numerical sense, it`s not the bigger, it`s the smaller half. But if there`s one thing Donald Trump knows, he has a sort of real, intense, emotional intuitive appeal to his hardcore supporters, and those are going to be the people this entire presidency will revolve around, rhetorically, in terms of what issues he pushes, like that`s 100 percent clear to me.

SEDER: Yeah. And I think like, look, he is caught in this media bubble that we`re all part of to a certain extent, and that`s the feedback and that`s where he`s going from. And then, I think that`s what`s driving him. I mean, I`m not even sure it`s as strategic as that as much as he`s just like I`m going to trust me and he is a product of that, and there`s a lot of people out there who want to consume that.

HAYES: Speaking of mandates, there`s a mandate happening right now at the very popular Jean-Georges Restaurant, three Michelin stars here in New York. That`s Donald Trump and Mitt Romney with Reince Priebus there playing sort of a third wheel. This is the one sort of - I don`t know why they have -- because we have tape of this, it`s totally bizarre. These are rich people eating at a very nice restaurant. The Romney subplot here, right, which is sort of a part of that, right? It`s a part about the question of like, do you move beyond your base, because this was the guy who became the kind of the standard bearer for Never-Trump republicanism. How - what is your interpretation of what we`re watching play out with respect to that?

SEDER: I mean, my sense is - I mean, this - and this really has nothing to do with politics as much as it does -

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: I don`t -- it`s all personality.

SEDER: There is -- there is an entire apparatus around Donald Trump that has absolutely no experience in government.

HAYES: Yup.

SEDER: That has - you know, you`ve got stories of people walking into the White House, like, who stays, who goes?

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: Oh, you mean they all go?

HAYES: Right. Yeah.

SEDER: I mean, just zero experience. It seems to me if I was any number of those people, the last thing I would want would be someone to show up who has some semblance of understanding of the way a government works.

HAYES: Or would you want that more than anything.

SEDER: I think - I think -

HAYES: I mean, it depends on who you are.

SEDER: You and I would want that.

HAYES: Right. Right.

SEDER: And there are - there are people who understand you want to surround yourself with more experience and more intelligent people. But if you`re not one of those people, you`re completely inexperienced, you want to wreak havoc, which I`m not convinced, that from reading stuff that Bannon has said, that he doesn`t want a lot of that.

HAYES: Yeah.

SEDER: Then I think what you don`t want is someone in there who is sort of a grown uppish.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: I mean, you know, Mitt Romney is not my choice for a grown up, but I think they perceive him that way.

HAYES: Right. Right, right.

SEDER: And I think that would be a threat to them.

HAYES: Sam Seder, always a pleasure. Thank you.

SEDER: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Still ahead, meet Sheriff David Clarke, Donald Trump`s possible Department of Homeland Security, who`s facing renewed questions about four recent deaths at a jail that he`s in charge of. More on that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TRUMP: Companies like Carrier simply fire their workers and move their operations to Mexico, build new plants, make their product and sell it back into this country. Guess what? Not going to be so easy to do anymore.

We`re going to tell them that, look, if you move, we are going to charge you 35 percent every time you make an air conditioner and think you`re going to sell it back into our country. OK?

Every time you make an air conditioning unit, Carrier, who left Indianapolis, every time you make an air conditioning unit, and you think you`re going to sell it into our country tax free, not going to happen anymore. No more. 35 percent tax. 35 percent tax. And you know what`s going to happen? When they hear that, they`re not leaving, folks.

HAYES: His favorite clause of then, candidate Trump, the Carrier air- conditioning plant in Indianapolis, which back in February in an announcement that was caught on camera, told its workers they were up and moving production to Mexico.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Became clear that the best way to stay competitive and protect the business for long term is to move production from our facility in Indianapolis to Monterrey, Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The move would eliminate 1400 jobs at least in Indianapolis over a three-year time table. There`s also another factory nearby. But after Trump made Carrier part of his campaign platform, workers told NBC News they hoped he would deliver, though, they were skeptical.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let`s say he does follow through, I`m assuming that would be a euphoric day for everyone at Carrier.

TJ BRAY, CARRIER EMPLOYEE: Oh, yeah. I mean, if he can come here and save these 1400 jobs here tomorrow, I`ll gladly vote for him again if he - if he`s up for re-election. But, you know, I have to be skeptical, but I`m very hopeful, hopeful that he can come through on these - on these - you know, things he said he would do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Tonight CNBC broke news, Trump is heading to Indianapolis this Thursday to announce a deal that would apparently save a thousand jobs. Carrier confirming that report, tweeting out late tonight, "We`re pleased to reach a deal with President-elect Trump and," this is key, "VP-elect Pence" to keep close to 1,000 jobs in Indy. More details soon. Now, the vice president, of course, the Governor of Indiana, had been working on inducements to keep Carrier there for over a nine-month period. And the actual details of the deal, which is a combination one imagines of carrots more than sticks, exactly what Carrier was promised in return, all that remains unclear.

CNBC reports the deal terms to keep Carrier jobs in Indiana include new inducements from states. Deal was spearheaded by former Indiana Governor Pence. We will, of course, stay on this, bringing more details on what exactly those inducements were made, and by whom, as the story develops.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: A newborn baby died at the Milwaukee County jail in July. The baby`s mother, a former inmate, is suing saying the jail staff ignored her request for help.

A 30-year-old woman who was almost nine months pregnant is seeking $8.5 million in damages. According to the Journal Sentinel, her lawyer wrote in the notice of claims that she told a corrections officer her water broke and she was going into labor. The officer laughed and ignored her. The inmate said she told the officer she was going into labor around midnight, gave birth around 4:00 a.m. and finally received attention from officers at 6:00 a.m. Her child was pronounced dead later that day.

That former inmate`s claim is against the Milwaukee County sheriff`s office which has since issued a statement she did not inform jail staff that she was going into labor and the baby was stillborn.

The inmate disputes both points. Now, the sheriff`s office is run by Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clark. He may be familiar to you from frequent Fox News appearances, his turn as a speaker of the Republican National Convention, and even as a speaker at Trump rallies.

Sheriff Clark also made an appearance at Trump Tower yesterday where he met with President-elect and is reportedly under consideration for a cabinet position, possibly as head of the Department of Homeland Security.

A spokeswoman for Sheriff Clark said their office would have no further comment on the newborn`s death that that is not the only death that`s occurred in the jail system and Mr. Clark runs. Another inmate`s death, Terrell Thomas on April 24th has been ruled a homicide caused by profound dehydration according to the Milwaukee County Medical examiner.

According to the Journal Sentinel, other inmates heard Thomas beg for water in the days before he died.

Clark`s office said it would not be commenting on the case until all investigations and possible lawsuits have ended.

The Journal Sentinel reports two other inmates have died at Milwaukee county jail since April. A 38-year-old female inmate died in August, and a 29-year-old male inmate died in late October. No information has been released about the causes of death or circumstances surrounding those two cases.

Since Clark is under consideration to run part of the federal government, we thought we`d talk to someone who knows his record well. And joining me now Wisconsin state representative Mandela Barnes representing Milwaukee.

And Representative Barnes, what is your assessment of Mr. Clark`s performance in his role as the sheriff of Milwaukee County as opposed to his role as a provocateur and talking head?

MANDELA BARNES, WISCONSIN STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, that`s about all he is, is a provocateur and talking head. He`s shown nothing but a culture of mismanagement in his time as Milwaukee County sheriff, conveniently putting his political ambitions above the needs of the people of Milwaukee County.

He had so much audacity even to neglect to protect President Barack Obama when he was in Milwaukee a few years back, yet he`s parading around with Donald Trump, made sure he made it to the Republican National Convention, and he does more political speeches and political travel than he does, actually, working as sheriff of Milwaukee County.

There`s been four deaths in four months. He`s already been on the hook for over $400,000 in lawsuits. And we`re looking at potentially millions more if these four deaths after this is settled.

HAYES: I`m curious how -- obviously we`re quoting Journal Sentinel reporting, and I have sources and friends in Milwaukee who I talk to a bit about his reputation there. How much this is an issue, is a scandal there. I mean, obviously, they deny that the charges of the woman who is suing, but a newborn dead in a jail is no small thing.

BARNES: Right. And so this is Sheriff Clark not performing his duties. This is his staff under his supervision.

Imagine if he`s the head of homeland security what kind of trouble that spells for people across the entire United States.

It should be very frightening for a lot of people who only hear Sheriff David Clark, but don`t actually know Sheriff David Clark`s actions.

HAYES: We should make the point the Department of Homeland Security, of course, is the entity that runs huge facilities that detain and incarcerate thousands, hundreds of thousands at times immigrants, sometimes families. There`s been huge abuses, a lot of that`s privatized, even under the Obama administration. Human rights groups have raised concerns. That would be one of the main duties of Sheriff Clark were he to take that position.

BARNES: And one thing that a lot of people can identify with is travel. And you have got to think about the TSA, how frustrating travel already is. Imagine if Sheriff David Clark gets into that post what we`ll be facing as average Americans.

HAYES: Does he have a future in Milwaukee County politics or in Wisconsin politics or has he become a kind of national figure? He really -- for someone who has a job, it is rare to see a public official spend as much time on cable news as he does.

BARNES: Well, he`s made his career deceiving the voting public in Milwaukee County. He runs as a Democrat. We know he`s not a Democrat. And it`s very unfortunate for the person who goes to the ballot and just seeing Democrat and checks Democrat or in people who see a black figure and assume that he has black interests at heart and support him, because that`s what`s been happening over the past several years over the past few elections.

I don`t believe that he has a future in Milwaukee County at this point simply because his head is swollen so big his platform has become that much greater with the conservative right. He`s their darling now. He`s their guy. He hasn`t been Milwaukee County`s guy for a long time. And I`m glad someone else can take ownership of him.

HAYES: He has said a lot of controversial things. He`s talked about our institutions of government and big media corrupt, all we do is bitch: pitchforks and torches time.

He also said before long...

BARNES: Yeah, he incited a riot.

HAYES: Yeah, he said Black Lives Matter will join forces with ISIS to bring down our legally constituted republic. You heard it here first.

This is someone who, you know, oversees a law enforcement agency who presumably has to provide security at protests and so forth.

BARNES: Yeah, so someone should have to assume what his role as homeland security director would be with peaceful protesters who could potentially be detained, who could potentially stripped of all of their rights. He`s not a person who even abides by the constitution. He`s not a person who I consider to be serious law enforcement professional.

Again, he is a provocateur, he`s a right wing talking head. And it stops there.

HAYES: All right. Mandela Barnes, state representative. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

BARNES: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, is Jason Chaffetz as committed to investigating Donald Trump`s potential conflicts of interest as he was to the possible Clinton presidency? Well, we thought we`d ask him about that. His response ahead.

Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts after this break

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Thing One tonight. There`s a big drop-off in name recognition between the presidential candidates at the top of the ticket and their running mates. Case in point, in late August, Stephen Colbert tested whether New Yorkers could distinguish Tim Kaine from another white guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, LATE SHOW HOST: Kathleen (ph), are you following the political season?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More or less, yes.

COLBERT: OK, would you like to meet Senator Tim Kaine?

UNIDENITIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

COLBERT: Senator Kaine?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, so nice to meet you.

Please don`t forget to vote in November.

COLBERT: Does he look exactly the way you thought he would look?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t -- more or less, I guess. I was picturing a white guy, and I`m not disappointed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am a white guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Mike Pence also struggled to get his name out there, including this moment after a 37-minute haircut and chat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your name are?

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Mike Pence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence.

PENCE; Yes, sir, I`m the governor of the state of Indiana, running for vice president of the United States.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: Go ahead, man. Oh, whoa. Vice president?

PENCE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: Oh boy.

PENCE: I`m running with Donald Trump. So, I`m his running mate.

UNIDENIFIED MALE: OK. All right.

PENCE: Just tapped me a month ago. So...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Vice president-elect shouldn`t feel so bad, because anonymity is the name of the game for vice presidents both future and past. And that`s Thing Two, which we`ll show you in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Kellyanne Conway is the star of the moment having jumped ship from a Ted Cruz super PAC to the Trump campaign in July. She`s basking in her win, even changing her Twitter bio simply to, we won.

And today she walked into Trump Tower, someone even asked her for a selfie.

But, wait, who is that guy standing a few steps away from her, watching and waiting for Conway to finish? Oh, that`s just Dan Quayle, you know, America`s 44th vice president who served under George H.W. Bush and a man who is perhaps best remembered for misspelling potato in an elementary school classroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN QUAYLE, 44TH VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A little bit on the end. Think of potato...how`s it. You`re right phonetically, but put a little...there it is.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Even the press pool didn`t initially recognize Dan Quayle as he walked in, but he later stopped to offer a statement about his meeting with Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUAYLE: Things are in good hands. He`s moving forward and he`s going to make America great again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us exactly...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you think about the Bush family not supporting Mr. Trump?

QUAYLE: I supported Mr. Trump.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: As did Vice President Cheney, the two vice presidents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: There you have it. James Danforth Quayle, unlike the proper way to sell certain infamous tubers, he is sure about Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Before the presidential election, House oversight and government reform committee chair Jason Chaffetz, the guy whose job it is to lead investigations for the House, seemed awfully excited about the prospect of devoting himself to trying to, well, destroy President Hillary Clinton.

It`s a target-rich environment, Chaffetz told The Washington Post. Even before we get to day one we`ve got two years worth of material already lined up.

Chaffetz held to that stance even after the election when Clinton became another private citizen who enjoys the occasional hike. Chaffetz insisting he still has, quote, a duty and a obligation to get to the truth about Clinton`s tenure at the State Department.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: We would be remiss if we just dismissed it and moved on. We have a lot of things we have to fix so it never, ever happens again.

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS: So, you`re saying that investigation continues?

CHAFFETZ: Oh, absolutely. I`d be derelict in my duty if I just let it go and said, well, there`s an election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The truth, of course, is that Clinton`s loss threw a huge wrench into Chaffetz`s plans, but I`ve got some good news for the congressman. If he is truly committed to not being derelict in his duty, he still has plenty to do. Thanks to his refusal to liquidate his business holdings or at the very least place them in an actual blind trust, Donald Trump is poised to enter the White House with unprecedented conflicts of interest, indeed constitutional scholars are warning that because he is poised to personally profit from the presidency, Trump may be committing a clear impeachable offense on his very first day in office.

Now, if this were true of, say, Hillary Clinton, it`s pretty clear how House Republicans would react. Democrats are appealing to them to play fair.

Representative Elijah Cummings and his colleagues sending Chaffetz a pair of letters asking him to take the obvious step and investigate Trump`s conflicts. So, how did Chaffetz respond? He didn`t. Silence.

We got the same answer. Twice today we asked Chaffetz Office to send us a statement on the matter or to make Chaffetz available for an interview. They turned us down. Chaffetz did appear on Fox News where he mocked Democrats` call for action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAFFETZ: Give him a chance. He hasn`t even been sworn in yet. So, it`s pretty hard to criticize him or suggest that there should be an investigation by congress when the guy hasn`t even been sworn in yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Hasn`t even been sworn in yet.

We also heard today from House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, who you`ll recall embarrassed his party last year when he suggested the ostensibly non-partisan Benghazi committee was in reality a partisan effort to damage Hillary Clinton.

For some reason I can`t figure out why McCarthy no longer thinks those sorts of investigations are such a good idea. Telling reporters, quote, "I think it`s been a bad thing. It`s harmed the ability for people all to work together."

Here`s the short answer for what Republicans in congress will do barring a massive story they simply can`t ignore about Trump`s conflicts of interest and possible corruption -- absolutely nothing.

The effort to hold Trump accountable will be left almost entirely to Democrats which is why tomorrow`s House Democratic leadership election in which representative Tim Ryan is challenging Nancy Pelosi is so important and we will break that down right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: House Democrats will vote tomorrow on who will lead them for the next two years with 43-year-old Ohio congressman Tim Ryan challenging 76- year-old Californian Nancy Pelosi who has led the House Democrats since 2003.

Pelosi easily beat back a somewhat similar challenge from blue dog Democrat Heath Shuler way back in 2010. She is expressing confidence, claiming she has two-thirds of the votes locked up. Today, she got the backing of progressive Minnesota Representative Keith Ellison, who is a leading candidate to become the Democratic National Committee Chairman.

Now, Ryan argues he would offer a more robust economic message that would better appeal to the working class Rust Belt voters, who largely backed Trump in the presidential election. He told our Casey Hunt today he still has a shot at beating Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: We`re within striking distance. I think a lot of people are going to be surprised on Wednesday at the number.

UNIDENTIIFED FEMALE: Does she have support of two-thirds of the caucus in your view?

RYAN: I think that`s a little inflated, but you know, we`re going to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Joan Walsh, national affairs correspondent for The Nation, MSNBC political analyst Nina Turner, former Democratic Ohio State Senator.

And Joan, let me start with you. You know, look, Nancy Pelosi was an incredible speaker just in this sort of not ideological but just like how she ran her caucus. I mean, she delivered vote after vote after vote.

JOAN WALSH, THE NATION: Best ever.

HAYES: Incredible at delivering hard votes.

She`s great at counting votes. So, I don`t think that she`s really threatened here.

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: It also does seem to me, though, that Tim Ryan has kind of a point?

WALSH: And what is it?

HAYES: That the party could use leadership not from California?

WALSH: I agree. No, I agree.

HAYES: Basically. Like one-fifth of the House democratic caucus is from California which god knows I love California, but it is a little bit of the issue with the party right now.

WALSH: Theoretically.

But, you know, my challenge to Tim Ryan would be, you know, Hillary Clinton didn`t carry your district. What did you do to help her? While you`ve been in congress, Youngstown has gotten increasingly more Republican. So, the notion that he has a secret plan to bring Democratic Party back in the so-called Rust Belt, Sherrod Brown doesn`t want us to call it that anymore, so I`ll stop, you know, I don`t see it. I don`t see it.

So, I think -- I think it`s an incredibly terrible thing to lose Nancy Pelosi, and it`s not going to happen at a time like this.

I think she was the best speaker we had, and she`s also an incredible -- Democrats are playing strategic defense right now. And I believe that she knows how to do that better than anybody else.

won`t happen at a time like this. Democrats are playing strategic defense right now. And I believe that she knows how to do that better than anybody else.

HAYES: Yeah, from a parliamentary perspective.

Nina, you know, it`s interesting to me that the DNC fight has gotten a lot of attention because the DNC fight feels like a kind of proxy continuation of a lot of the primary, right? There`s this sort of Sanders wing, Clinton wing, there`s the White House wing. And this has gotten a little less attention I think because it`s less contested.

I`m curious -- you know, Keith Ellison, who is a Sanders backer, endorsed Nancy Pelosi. You`re from Ohio. Where do you kind of come down on this?

NINA TURNER, FRM. OHIO STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, Chris, I come down with the people, where I`ve always been.

And certainly I do agree with Joan in the sense that Leader Pelosi has been a good leader. She was a great speaker of the House. But this comes down to -- this is an upset election year. And to blame Congressman Pyan for Secretary Clinton`s loss in Ohio is ludicrous.

WALSH: I didn`t do that, Nina, I would never do that.

TURNER: No, you did. You said that he couldn`t even carry his own district.

WALSH: I raise the question. It`s a data point.

TURNER: ...won 70 percent of the votes in 30 counties in the state of Ohio. This was just an upset election year.

But the bigger point is what do Democrats want to do moving forward? This -- we got beat like a drum in November. And this didn`t just start happening, this started happening in 2010. So we have a lot of ground to make up. And so we have to determine what type of party we are going to be and who we are standing for.

Leader Pelosi is the odds-on favorite, but let us not forget this is a secret ballot, Chris. So folks can say whatever they want in public, but they can vote in secret without retribution.

HAYES: That`s true.

But the point -- so the point you make -- I mean, to me, the deeper problem here is this geographic problem, right.

So, you`ve got this crazy situation. We`ve all seen the map, OK. We`ve seen a Democratic Party that in many ways has been eviscerated in the Obama era and still delivered a plus 2 million vote national margin to Hillary Clinton but that is -- I don`t know the way out of that is threw a leadership fight, but that does seem to be the central problem the Democratic Party faces right now.

WALSH: I think it`s more ab out -- I mean, that`s why I`m more invested in the DNC fight where I think there`s -- there are a bunch of great candidates. I love Keith Ellison, I love -- I`m just not even going to go there.

But I`d love to see a debate. I really want people to put on the table their plans for rebuilding the Democratic Party in these places where we`ve let it wither and where people only come out every four years and try to organize, but the people who are -- the party as an institution is gone.

HAYES: Does the leadership fight, does who is the face of the party do you think, Nina, when you think about those counties in Ohio. And Ohio, I mean, Hillary Clinton lost badly in Ohio.

TURNER: She did.

HAYES: Ohio was like a really -- it was a shellacking.

TURNER: Right. Yes.

HAYES: Do you think that matters in that, or it does seem to be the DNC fight and sort of this bottom-up approach is the key. But does even the face of the party matter that much for your state?

TURNER: It matters not just for my state, but it just matters to the Americans that we have lost. I mean, based on our party and our party proposition, our platform and all of that stuff where people can`t pay mortgages or send their kids to college, but we do have the ideas that should resonate with most of people. So, what we have to do is make that connection and we have to decide what type of leaders fit this moment.

And that doesn`t mean that leaders that are there now or leaders that have been there in the past have done a bad job, but we do have to do some real self-assessment and we`ve got to shake things up, and we cannot limit the debate like we did in the presidential election. That just cannot happen.

HAYES: Look, can I play you something? I want you to respond to this Tim Ryan quote on Meet the Press, because you know there`s all this talk about identity politics that`s been something that a lot of people have been talking about in a variety of places. This is Tim Ryan`s talking on Meet the Press about that. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN: I think in part we try to slice the electorate up and we try to say, you`re black, you`re brown, you`re gay, you`re straight, you`re a woman, you`re a man. The reality of it is there`s no juice in that kind of campaign. There`s no energy in that because it`s divided. The key to and the magic of good campaigns is when you pull people together. You unite them around a common theme.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: What do you think of that?

WALSH: It`s impossible to disagree with that, actually.

HAYES: I thought that was one of the better articulations of the critique that I have heard.

WALSH: Absolutely.

But I think it`s a matter of both/and. And there`s an interesting question. As we go forward, we want to reach people we apparently didn`t reach, that we`ve lost in the last ten years, but we also don`t want to lose the people we have. So, when you say to me, 20 percent of house members come from California, I`m like well maybe they deserve to have the speaker.

HAYES: Right. I mean, that is the base of the party.

WALSH: Right. And it is a great place and it`s doing a lot of things right. I`m not saying this is about identity politics. There is no way in which Nancy Pelosi is not the best person for the job. So backing Tim Ryan is a matter of identity politics, to be honest, for white guys.

HAYES: And here`s what I think ultimately...

TURNER: Well -- that`s not true.

I mean, listen, my Congresswoman Marsha Fudge is supporting Congressman Ryan and she`s an African-American woman. So, we need to stop that.

Look, this is a robust debate that needs to happen. And it does not take away from all the great things that Leader Pelosi has done. And she still is the odds on favorite, but this has been an upset election year. Period.

WALSH: So, do you think that people should be voting for Tim Ryan. I mean, you sound like it?

TURNER: Look, the caucus. The caucus makes a decision, Joan. I don`t have a vote in that. What I really want to see this Democratic Party do, whether it`s the caucus or the DNC is really stand up for the people and let`s start winning some seats. We only have five states where we control governors mansions and legislatures, so we need a change.

WALSH: Joan Walsh, Nina Turner, thank you both. Appreciate it.

That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END