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All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 11/15/2016

Guests: April Ryan, Charlie Pierce, Sherrod Brown, Antonio Garcia Martinez

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: November 15, 2016 Guest: April Ryan, Charlie Pierce, Sherrod Brown, Antonio Garcia Martinez



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got these hats at conference today.

HAYES: MAGA hats on the hill on a Trump transition in turmoil.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANGER: We`re filled with questions in the Trump transition, and that`s just very logical.

HAYES: Tonight, new questions about Rudy`s business ties, the quote, "Stalinesque purge" of Chris Christie allies, why Ben Carson suddenly bailed and the mounting conflicts for Trump`s children.

Plus, Rachel Maddow on the global implications of a President-elect not having his act together. Senator Sherrod Brown on the democrats` first real fight to remove Steve Bannon.

And the Facebook effect, Mark Zuckerberg denies fake news on Facebook affected the election. Tonight, my interview with a former employee who disagrees. When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. During the presidential campaign, Paul Ryan described comments by Donald Trump as racist and decried Trump`s Muslim ban as un-American. Today, House Republicans unanimously nominated Ryan, the serve as speaker under the new president, and Ryan made clear he has put his misgivings about Trump behind.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We are on the same page of our President-elect. I talk with Donald Trump virtually every single day. I spoke with Mike Pence this morning. We are on the same page, we`re working hand in glove and we`re going to make sure that this is a very successful administration.


HAYES: Promising a new dawn, that wasn`t the only sign republicans were falling in line. This was the scene before the House Republican meeting where Ryan was nominated today. Those are "Make America Great Again" hats on every chair. House Majority whip Steve Scalise, was so excited about his new swag that he proudly waited around for the cameras. But while House Republicans appear organized, unified, and energized to carry out the agenda of the man who successfully executed a hostile takeover of their party or perhaps their own agenda pre-existing him, there`s one big problem, the man whose agenda they are going to be working hand in glove with, a man with exactly zero experience in government, for first time in the history of the republic appears, as of right now, to be botching the job of building the team a president needs to actually run the country.

After he unceremoniously dumped Chris Christie as the head of his transition team on Friday, Trump turned to Vice President-elect Mike Pence to the job, but Pence, or someone on his team was required by law to sign a document in order to work with the White House on the transition, and nobody signed the document until late today. That`s four days of working with the White House wasted and there are only 73 days between election Inauguration Day, to set up the new government. A process that involves, among many other tasks, the monumental job of vetting and hiring and getting cleared 4,000 political appointees. And that`s far from the most worrying news, Mike Rogers, a former Congressman who led the house intelligence committee and was handling now for security matters for the transition team, was removed today in what a source, quote, "to Rogers told NBC News, was part of," -- and I`m quoting here, a "Stalinesque purge" of people close to Chris Christie.

Another report says Rogers was ousted because in 2014, his committee released a report on Benghazi that did not fit with the right-wing narrative about the events on that night. The weekly standard reporting that CIA officers objected to the report`s claim, that no CIA officer on the ground in Benghazi was told to stand down from a rescue attempt, a story that you encounter in conservative media quite often. In addition to getting rid of Rogers, "The New York Times" reports that Trump had removed a second senior defense in foreign policy official from his transition team, Matthew Friedman. And then there`s former State Department Staffer Eliot Cohen, who`d oppose Trump, but after his victory, encouraged republicans to join the administration. Cohen says a Trump transition aid, ask for recommendations for Trump`s National Team, but "The Times" report that Mr. Cohen suggested the caveat that many foreign policy hands would enlist only if there were credible people leading national security agencies and departments. He said he received a vituperative e-mail in response. That prompted Cohen to tweet, "After exchange with Trump transition team, changed my recommendation: stay away. They`re angry, arrogant, screaming "you LOST!" Will be ugly."

Even before that tweet, there were reports the transition team was struggling to find qualified people to take posts in the Trump administration, and yet, another troubling sign the state and defense department say, they have not yet even been contacted by the Trump transition team. As for the Secretary of State job, the Trump camp has suggested it is down to either Rudy Giuliani, whose astounding conflicts of interest we will detail shortly, or John Bolton, whose extreme hawkishness is so out of step, with much of the Trump campaign`s rhetoric that many Washington are bewildered he`s even in the conversation. Another possible appointee, Ben Carson had been floated as possible Secretary of Health and Human Services. I mean, obviously, the man is a neurosurgeon, celebrated, widely seen as one of the best in the business, and that job would likely entail rolling back Obamacare, but Carson today took himself out of the running his business manager, saying that despite seeking the presidency, Carson does not believe he is qualified for the job. Doesn`t know how to run a federal agency.

Trump this morning, received his first top secret president`s daily briefing at Trump tower, NBC News has learned that in an unprecedented move, Trump`s campaign has asked that Jared Kushner, Trump`s son-in-law, also had top secret clearance, so he can join those briefings.

Joining me now, MSNBC Political Analyst Robert Costa and national political reporter for "The Washington Post", and Robert, your reporting all along suggested that Kushner is possibly the most important person in Trump`s circle. There, you can`t just give security clearance to anyone you want because you like them. I mean, there is -- there is a kind of need to know basis here, right?

ROBERT COSTA, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: There`s a power matrix that`s developing around the President-elect, it includes Kushner, who is working closely with Steve Bannon, the Chief Strategist. Kushner also gets along with Reince Priebus, the incoming Chief of Staff. These are the people who are in the President-elect`s ear, highly influential. Kushner was on the plane with Trump throughout the campaign.

HAYES: Is Kushner going -- is your reporting suggests that Kushner would actually join the administration?

COSTA: Because of the laws around Bobby Kennedy, it`s unlikely that he may get a formal role, but what we`re looking at, based on NBC`s reporting and my own conversations with those close to the Trump transition, is that Kushner could be part of the presidential daily briefings who could get a security clearance but he may not yet have a title.

HAYES: So, this is the key point, there`s anti-nepotism laws that would appear to ban family members from getting federal jobs, and that includes in the White House where there`s a greater degree of latitude and less civil service protection, but include the White House. What you`re saying is -- what could happen is, even though the law bars him from working formally in the White House, he could still get security clearance and essentially just be an unpaid adviser.

COSTA: Yes, there`s an important distinction here. Some of the Trump children are looking to run the Trump organization to have some kind of separation from the presidency, but Jerod Kushner, though he is in real estate, has become a political adviser, a senior political adviser to the President-elect. It`d be almost unfathomable to perceive how the President-elect Trump would work without Kushner at his side based on how it worked throughout the campaign.

HAYES: I just want to be clear about what kind of situation we look like we may be getting into, and which the son-in-law of the President-elect would be sitting in on the presidential daily briefing and then would also be married to a woman who is part of running the President-elect`s business enterprise, right?

COSTA: One important job will likely be White House counsel, to look at all of these entanglements.

HAYES: Yes, what else did your reporting suggest about the level of preparation? I know firsthand, I`ve worked -- I`ve talked to people, I know people that worked on presidential transitions that start even before the election happens. Huge amounts of work. No one can possibly get their hands around the scope of it, until they`re confronted with it. Are these folks ready?

COSTA: There`s a sea change happening within the transition. There`s been a coup of sorts. Christie had the transition -- a lot of the Christie people are being purged. They`re seen as just not the right fit. It`s the Jeff Sessions people, from the Alabama Center orbit who really matter working with Kushner and Bannon. It`s the hardline conservative populist right that`s coming into this White House, though Mike Pence, the vice President-elect, is the name at the top the transition right now. It`s really Sessions, Kushner, Bannon, Trump himself, who are working together to try to fill this White House.

HAYES: All right. Robert Costa, thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

COSTA: Thank you.

HAYES: Joining me now Charlie Pierce, writer-at-large for Esquire, and April Ryan, Washington Bureau Chief from American Urban Radio Networks, the author of the new book " At Mama`s Knee: Mothers and Race in Black and White." Charlie, you wrote about this today, so let me start with you on this Sam Stein reporting that the -- about the sort of freeze that set in where Department of Energy, Department of Transition, Justice Department, all still waiting to hear. Just -- I mean, we`re not talking about anything ideological here. We`re talking about the most basic nuts and bolts, blocking and tackling, of the monumental organizational task that is now being undertaken. And it does not appear to be even being done at this moment.

CHARLIE PIERCE, WRITER-AT-LARGE FOR ESQUIRE: No, we have drifted into what can be fairly called terra incoherent. I have no idea who`s running things. Robert Costa just explained it probably as lucidly as anybody in the business can, and I still don`t know what`s going on. I don`t know who`s running things. You`ve got Mike Rogers and Eliot Cohen, running around the National Security establishment, like Kevin McCarthy in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." You`ve got Ben Carson, rumored for everything and then taking himself out of the thing. You`ve got Rudy Giuliani, who apparently has his pick of any federal office he wants and lo and behold, today, we learn that there actually were people loyal to Chris Christie, who aren`t testifying against him.

HAYES: April, you`ve covered the White House for some time.


HAYES: Can you try to -- I mean, I think that it`s very hard to communicate just how complex -- what a buzz saw it is to walk into when you are told you are now taking over the most powerful office in the world. Here`s what you need to do.

RYAN: Well, bottom line, what he needs to do is quicken the pace, and it looks like he`s going to walk into the Oval Office, and he may not have all of his posts, all of those 4,000 posts filled. That`s not, you know, anything surprising. Some -- that has happened before in the past, you know, it continues to build, the appointments happen, but his key people need to be in place very soon. But what I will tell you is in going back to the Jerod Kushner and the children issue, you know, he`s floating that idea he really wants Donald -- President-elect -- we still have to get our minds around that -- President-elect Donald Trump, wants his children to have a security clearance.

Now, if you think about giving a security clearance, you know, they would have to be named advisers. And they can`t be just named advisers for something like the ACA, or something else, they would have to be named advisers to specific issues dealing with the security clearance. Let`s say they wanted to deal with issues of Israel, they would have to be an adviser for Israel to get a security clearance. So, they can`t just be willy-nilly thing saying adviser getting that. So, that`s part of the piece -- that`s one piece to this complicated puzzle right now.

HAYES: You know, Charlie, one of the things that I think has gotten lost a little bit in the last week, with everyone now singing off the same hymnal, is that, you know, Eliot Cohen said something about the Trump people think jobs are lollipops for good boys and good girls. And you know, the Republican Party may all be saying on "The Hill" we love -- "Make America great again. We love Donald Trump. We`re all unified behind him." Something goes (INAUDIBLE) the Trump people have not forgotten who they felt was insufficiently loyal to them, and there`s going to be -- I mean, if there`s one thing we know about Donald Trump, it`s how much he values retribution, grievance and revenge.

PIERCE: Oh, I think -- I think -- I think he`s made his list and checked it twice already. You know, what genuinely makes me uneasy with the way things are going are not -- is not really that he`s going to do everything he said he was going to do, it`s that he has no idea of this job. Plus, the people who have been up close and realized that he has no idea how to do this job are leaking like sieves.

HAYES: I mean, let me just be clear here about no idea of this job, because let`s assume that Donald Trump was the most brilliant, gifted individual in human history. Let`s assume that you view him as that, if you`re watching this and you`re one of those people, even if that were the case, in the country`s history, no one has ever been elected with less experience. The job itself is very hard. He has no experience.

PIERCE: No. And every president learns on the job because nobody`s really prepared --

HAYES: That`s right.

PIERCE: -- for the kind of -- for the kind of decisions that cross your desk every day. No one`s prepared for that. No vice president who has ascended to the presidency has ever truly been ready for that. Certainly, no vice president who`s assumed the presidency in extremis, like Harry Truman, has been ready for that. But this guy doesn`t seem to be ready for a career in government.

HAYES: April?

PIERCE: Chris, and that`s a very good point. And just -- was it yesterday, President Obama said you`re continuing to learn. There`s always a learning curve, but you`re continuing to learn. And I talked to someone who is being vetted for a counselor`s position -- a counselor`s position in this new administration, and they said to me, you know, I`m thinking about not taking it. I said, why? And they said because my issue is not the position itself, but to be able to talk directly to the president, (INAUDIBLE) who`s right now President-elect, to be able to talk to President Trump. And then someone else said to me, he said, that may not be a wise decision because he will need a White House whisperer to help him understand the inner workings, and that within, is a big problem right there.

HAYES: You know, in a funny way, in this sort of perverse way, there`s that, you know, people say they are going to bring change to Washington, they are going to drain the swamp in this case, of course, there`s lobbyists crawling all over this, Charlie, but institutional knowledge goes a long way in Washington, D.C. I`ve seen it up close, I`ve seen how the folks, who know how things work become very important very quickly.

PIERCE: Oh, no question, and the other -- the obverse of that, which goes back to my late mentor George Reid`s great book, "The Twilight of the Presidency," somebody in the White House has got to be there to tell the president he`s wrong.

HAYES: Right.

PIERCE: Right now, we don`t have anybody in this administration that I can see, who can tell the president anything.


PIERCE: The President-elect, I mean.

HAYES: Must be -- might be the most important role. Charlie Pierce and April Ryan, thank you both. I appreciate it.

RYAN: Thank you.

HAYES: Up next, stick around because Rachel Maddow is here to talk about the global reverberation for President-elect, more potential conflicts of interest and his phone call with Putin, and democrats call for Donald Trump to rescind Steve Bannon`s White House appointment. Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown is leading the charge, and he will join me live later.



BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I do believe, separate and apart from any particular election or movement, that we are going to have to guard against a rise in a crude sort of nationalism or ethnic identity or tribalism that is built around an us and a them.


HAYES: You can see Barack Obama, the President, thinking hard about what he wanted to say right there, on the first day of his final trip to Europe, as President Barack Obama warned against crude nationalism, but avoided criticizing his successor. Instead, without mentioning his name, he sought to reassure world leaders, in the wake of Donald Trump`s election, promising the NATO alliance, for one, will remain vital, despite whatever the now President-elect said on the campaign trail.


OBAMA: The strong NATO relationship, between the United States and Greece, is of the utmost importance. It is something that provides significant continuity, even as we see a transition of governments in the United States.


HAYES: Despite the president`s assurances, the fact remains Donald Trump is heading into the White House with a foreign policy that is based on his rhetoric and very few proposals, pretty much anybody`s guess. Since the election, here are a few things that have happened, Russian President Vladimir Putin called, and spoke with President-elect Trump, on a range of issues. That conversation reportedly happened before Trump or anyone from his team spoke to the State Department or the Pentagon. And there`s General Michael Flynn, whose name has been bandied about for National Security Adviser, even Defense Secretary, though that might be difficult, a report from the conservative website, "The Daily Caller", claims General Flynn was recently hired of lobby for a company with ties to the Turkish government. And Rudy Giuliani, who is reportedly being considered for Secretary of State, possibly even the front runner, allegedly took money from Qatar, Venezuela and Iranian exiles, during his consultung work, according to POLITICO which and I`m quoting here, "Would present conflicts of interests, as the nation`s top diplomat that would make the Clinton Foundation look trifling." Joining me now, Rachel Maddow, Host of the Rachel Maddow Show. It`s great to have you here.

RACHEL MADDOW, HOST OF THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW: Putting the trifle back in trifling.

HAYES: Well, what`s amazing too, is how much particularly down the stretch, they hit this line of, like selling out to foreign interests, selling out to foreign interests, selling out to foreign interests, that`s what the Clinton campaign is doing, and now we hear that it might be Rudy Giuliani at state.

MADDOW: Or Michael Flynn, anywhere in the administration. I mean, there`s the (INAUDIBLE) right, so Turkey have this coup, what appeared to be a coup. It was a little bit weird because the President of Turkey called it a gift from god when it happened. And then he announced that he was building 174 new prisons to lock up tens of thousands of people. Everything, from professors to baklava sellers to the military, everybody. And then they decided afterwards, they were going to blame it on this Turkish cleric who is a legal resident of the United States, telling the United States, we must hand that guy over, because he`s the one who orchestrated the entire coup with the help of the United States.

On Election Day, Michael Flynn wrote an op-ed in The Hill, saying "we ought to hand that guy over. Screw our extradition processes, screw our independent judicial review of this, and then, I guess, hand that guy over." It was like, "On Election Day?" You`re the top military intelligence adviser to one of the candidates in this election and your priority on this day is to do something that we really shouldn`t do that Turkey wants from us. Now, we know based on this new reporting, that Michael Flynn runs a consulting group, they have one foreign client relatively recently hired who is Turkey.

He`s being paid by the government of Turkey. And at his first presidential daily brief today, Donald Trump had that guy, whose firm is being paid by Turkey, sit in on the presidential daily brief.

HAYES: And that is -- that is -- and that is -- I mean, that gets to the - - that gets to the sort of broader point, which is, you know, look, there`s a lot of things about American foreign policy at any moment that are -- I disagree with, I don`t think are great. But when you`re talking about the most powerful nation on earth, there`s a certain kind of like continuity, stability that is just necessary, just a practical matter about how all these different players are angling. No one knows what`s in the black box right now. I mean, it could be Bolton who said we should bomb Iran or maybe it won`t be Bolton. Flynn who apparently --

MADDOW: Who`s paid by?

HAYES: -- paid by the Turkish government. And so, everybody right now, like, what does it mean to have every other actor in the world looking at this wondering what`s in the black box?

MADDOW: And to have the Russian government come out a day after the election and say, by the way, we were in touch with the Trump campaign throughout the election while at a time when the U.S. intelligence agencies say Russia was actively trying to intervene in the election in ways to hurt Hillary Clinton. So, I mean, what we`ve got here is not, you know, appearances of conflict of interest. What we don`t have here is allegations of shady ties. We have admitted, reported, undisputed really inappropriate foreign ties at the highest level of the Trump campaign and now the Trump transition. And the question is whether or not, I think honestly, whether or not the political system outside the Trump campaign, including the press, can recognize that as abnormal as it is.


MADDOW: It`s really abnormal. It`s really shocking. And there isn`t an immediate legal correction for it, but it`s not something that has ever happened before by a mile.

HAYES: And this extends across the spectrum, right? I mean, conflicts are the sort of theme of theme of the week in the last week. I mean, Jared Kushner, the son-in-law, may be getting security clearance to sit in the presidential daily briefing.

MADDOW: The other person who Trump asked to be in tonight.

HAYES: Right. And then maybe -- and then he and Ivanka go hangout and they talk about like what Trump organizations (INAUDIBLE) all of this again off the map, off the map, off the map. We`ve never been in this territory before. And we`re a week in and we have never been in this territory before.

MADDOW: And, you know, one of the things that people who have been through this, people take a very like, you know, 50,000-foot view of this, that they say. And I`ve been thinking a lot about recently is that transitions are very vulnerable time for us in terms of national security.


MADDOW: You really do. Apparently, the Trump campaign was surprised to learn, but you really do lose the entire left-wing staff and bring in all brand new people. There isn`t a carry-over staff that makes sure things go well. It`s handing off the baton and one of the runners stops.

And so, to see Russia today massively stepped up its bombing campaign in Aleppo. Whatever you think about Aleppo, whatever you think about the Syrian Civil War and our involvement in it, like, that is something that has been a real point of contention between the United States and the Russian government around Syria. And today, they just put the pedal to the metal thinking that boy, are we not something they have to worry about anymore in terms of getting what they want in the world. And that is -- that`s unsettling.

HAYES: That point about this sort of -- I mean, I`ll tell personal stories. My wife reported for the office the first day of the inauguration 2009 in Barack Obama`s White House. And literally, it was like, how do we get the phones to work? People -- really, it`s hard to get in your head, this is -- all of these are all just human beings starting a new job.

MADDOW: Right. And that was one of the most seamless transitions ever.


HAYES: And the job is running the country, and in terms of the vulnerability, I mean, particularly (INAUDIBLE) like, this is where things are very -- you know, this is -- this is where, particularly from the standpoint of international actors or international actors who want to test the United States or want to find out through incursions of whatever kind, how the new president will respond, that is what`s --

MADDOW: Particularly when those interests are the kinds of people who have much longer horizons than we have in our system. Like Putin has been in office since -- right? Putin has been in office --

HAYES: That right. That`s a great point.

MADDOW: -- forever, right? And so --

HAYES: As is Erdogan, Recep. Yup.

MADDOW: As is Erdogan in turkey, as is the Chinese communist party in its various iterations in China. And so you look at the -- you look at competing powers in the world, especially ones who see us as real rivals, see us as in a zero sum fight with -- see themselves as being in a zero sum fight for us for resources, for influence, for spheres of influence with other countries both economically and militarily.

And those countries that don`t turn over in a leadership role -- don`t turnover their leadership roles as rapidly as we do, they are perfectly positioned and already acting to capitalize on what we`re having in this strange moment of disorganization. And a shock electorally in the country, but on the Trump side, real disorganization, what appears to be a total lack of capacity to pick up and run with what the Obama administration is trying to leave them.

HAYES: Quickly, then I`ll let you go do -- prepare for the show that you have to do. But interesting debate among Never-Trumpers in this sort of circles about whether they should go in or not with the administration or not. What do you think of that debate? What do you --

MADDOW: And people who had no position one way or the other in the campaign. People who would be professionals, you know? People who would be on the, you know, sort of, in a junior lawyer side of things. I think it`s a very, very, very hard decision. I mean, I think that there is a strong civic minded case to be made that you go -- you go work for your country.

HAYES: Your country needs you literally. I mean, literally.

MADDOW: Your country needs you, and get good people in there. And there`s this sort of like -- the sort of character-driven part of it, which is, you know what, if nothing else, if you got the credentials, get in there so you`re in a position to resign and make a big stink.


HAYES: Right. If and when something could happen, yeah.

MADDOW: If and when something happens. On the other hand, maybe they`ll enable this stuff. It`s a -- this is a -- I don`t envy anybody who`s making them -- this decision. I think it`s a -- I think it`s a hard call either way. Civic-minded folks are going to have a hard time making this decision.

HAYES: All right. Rachel Maddow, so great to have you here.

MADDOW: Thanks, my friend. Thanks. Appreciate it.

HAYES: See you in a little bit.


HAYES: Just ahead democrats staged their first real fight in the era of President-elect Trump, calling for the removal of Steve Bannon as Chief White House Strategist. Senator Sherrod Brown is here to talk about it. Coming up.


HAYES: The peculiar dynamic of a businessman with a brand name becoming President of the United States is already becoming clear. The Monday after the Sunday broadcast of 60 Minutes` Trump family interview, Ivanka Trump`s fine jewelry company sent this style alert to journalists, pointing out the bracelet she was wearing in the interview is available for purchase at the retail price of $10,800. Following criticism, the company might be trying to make money off of a future first daughter`s interview, Abigail Klem, president of the company, said in a statement to NBC News, the style alert distributed to fashion journalist after the "60 Minutes" interview was sent by a well-intentioned marketing employee of one of our companies who was following customer protocol, and who, like many of us, is still making adjustments post-election.

Yes, we`re all adjusting to the new reality because the spectrum of conflicts created by this particular situation has never been encountered in the nation`s history. Every day, there will be opportunities for the Trump organization to profit from the fact that the person who`s name on the business is also the leader of the free world. But such potential conflicts of interest aren`t the Trump team`s only problem.

Today, The Daily Beast`s Betsy Woodruff reports a campaign watchdog group has made a complaint to the Federal Election Commission claiming a Trump super-PAC illegally paid a company of Steve Bannon so that the Trump campaign itself could avoid paying Bannon a salary. We do not yet have an official response on this matter from Trump folks. But we can expect that the complaint filed with the FEC in October will be met with a legal defense.

Ahead, the bigger problem the president-elect is facing with Steve Bannon at his side.


HAYES: Today, Senate Democrats united in their first fight with President- elect Donald Trump over his appointment of Steve Bannon as a senior counselor and chief White House strategist.


SEN. ED MARKEY, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: President-elect Trump will forever poison the well with congress and the American people by appointing figures like Steve Bannon whose stock and trade is hate and violence.

SENATOR-ELECT CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, (D) MARYLAND: It`s easy to look at the TV camera and tell people to stop the hate, but when you say that and look at the TV camera and then in the next moment the action you take is to appoint Steve Bannon, then you`re sending a very different and stronger message in the opposite direction.


HAYES: Democrats called on Trump to rescind the Bannon appointment as the only way for Trump to make a clear break from the more -- well, let`s say divisive aspects of his campaign and showed he was serious about bringing the nation together.


SEN. HARRY REID, (D) NEVADA: We have a responsibility to say it is not normal for the KKK, Ku Klux Klan, to celebrate the election of a president. If Trump is serious about seeking unity, the first thing he should do is rescind his appointment of Steve Bannon. As long as a champion of racial division is a step away from the Oval Office, it will be impossible to take Trump`s efforts to heal the nation seriously.


HAYES: For elected Republicans on Bannon, it was a different story.


RYAN: Look, I would just simply say that the president is going to be judged on his results. This is a person who helped him win an incredible victory, an incredible campaign. The president is going to be judged on the results of this administration.


HAYES: It may turn out to be the case there is no political traction for Democrats in fighting Steve Bannon, but it is also true they see it as absolutely crucial as both substantively and morally correct.

And our next guest has joined that fight. Senator Sherrod Brown saying today, "President-elect Trump told us he wants to be a president for all Americans. He cannot do that while empowering bigotry that targets and threatens many of them. Steve Bannon must be removed from his position immediately."

Joining me now, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio.

Senator, what do you say to people that say, look, Donald Trump won this election and, you know, this is not a Senate-confirmed position. They get to dance with the ones that brung them.

SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: Well, of course he can appoint whomever he wants to those kinds of positions, but that was either his first -- I`m not sure -- his first or second appointment he`s made of any consequence. And he has said earlier, he looked in the camera during "60 Minutes" and said stop, stop the hate, stop however he said that, and then he appoints a guy to a number one or number two position. He`s kind of a Karl Rove whispering in the ear of the most powerful person on Earth. And he`s clearly a racist, he`s clearly a misogynist, he`s anti-Semitic. And it`s a moral question to me.

I don`t know if this is good politics or bad politics to criticize him, but you`ve got to call out, just like people in communities when people say racist things and feel it`s OK now to be a sexist or a racist or a misogynist or a bigot, individuals have to call them out, I have to call them out when I see it. You have to call out this president when he engages, when he hires somebody that makes people even more uncomfortable. I mean, it`s not a difference in policy. People in this country, the fear levels are higher than I can ever remember. I mean, I remember Reagan`s election, I was pretty devastated.

But you didn`t have the fear like this that so many people of color and so many disabled people and gay people and people who aren`t Christians have. And this is just making it worse. And Trump needs to try to heal. And you don`t do things like this to heal.

Yeah, I mean, it strikes me, right, from the Trump perspective, from the political calculation here is that whatever -- and my understanding is your case against Bannon here is the kinds of things Breitbart has run, the fly the Confederate flag proudly just a few weeks after the massacre in Charleston, the really nasty things that have been written about women and calling Gabby Giffords the human shield for the gun control movement, things like that.

You know, the Trump campaign, though, Donald Trump said a lot of terrible things and he got elected president. I mean, it does seem like they`re taking the lesson of this election to heart in that respect.

BROWN: Well, there`s a great difference of running for president and being president. I think that deer in the headlights look in President-elect`s Trump face when he was going in and out of a meeting with our president said that, that he does see it`s different now, but he doesn`t seem to think it`s different enough.

And I`m incredulous that he would bring a guy like that. I mean, the president`s job is to bring people together, to heal people. I mean, I know my job after an election is, you know, I listened to Republicans, I work with Republicans, I find ways. But you don`t do this kind of thing...

HAYES: Senator, but look, I hear you where you`re coming from substantively, but it just seems to me like this is them sending a signal about how they feel they got there, what they won on and also communicating to everyone on Capitol Hill, yourself, colleagues on both sides of the aisle, this is who we are and this is who we will be as an administration.

BROWN: Well, I mean, that`s why we fight back. And I mean, on election night David Duke, the imperial wizard of the KKK said this is one of the best nights of my life. And when you have people saying that about you, you have to do something to heal the country. I mean, that`s why we fight back.

I asked people to come to, sign our petition to fire Bannon. It`s essential that we build a grassroots movement and we say to Trump to the president-elect, stop, you can`t go over this line again. You`ve got to work to heal and not to continue to fan the flames of racist and xenophobic and anti-Semitic talk, period.

HAYES: The raw numbers of the vote total in Ohio would indicate that there are tens of thousands, probably more than that, actually, probably north of hundreds of thousands of Sherrod Brown Donald Trump voters in the state of Ohio. What is your message to them as their senator, them as constituents of yours in this next period?

BROWN: Well, my message -- I was in Trumbell County(ph), which was a 65 and 73 percent county for me, I believe, in the two times I ran and Trump won that county. It`s about 85 percent white working class, a lot of union members, a lot of non-union working workers. They know I`m on their side on the auto rescue. They know I`m on their side on trade.

I believe they`re offended by hiring Steve Bannon, too, that`s why I say come to and sign this petition, because they have a decency to them. They just thought Hillary wasn`t going to stand up for them. They know I will. I`ll win there in two years. They thought Trump would.

But they want to see us work together. They don`t want to see -- but I`ll work with Trump on getting out of TPP. I`ve already told his -- the head of his transition on trade, count on me on renegotiating NAFTA and count on me on TPP -- pulling out of TPP and trade enforcement, but don`t count on me when you engage in racist and bigoted kind of behavior, don`t count on me wth tax cuts for the rich and going after Social Security and Medicare.

And if he throws in with the Republican establishment, those voters in Trumpbull County, they`re no longer Donald Trump voters within days. Count on that.

HAYES: That is the open question of the political terrain in which we`ve now driven into, Senator Sherrod Brown, it`s always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

BROWN: Good to be with you, Chris. Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, did fake news on Facebook have anything to do with Donald Trump`s improbable election? Mark Zuckerberg says absolutely not. I`ll talk to one of his former Facebook employees who disagrees.

But, first, Hillary Clinton`s popular vote lead reaches seven figures. It is getting under the president-elect`s skin. Thing One, Thing Two starts right after this break.


HAYES: Thing One tonight, President-elect Trump is now losing the popular vote by over a million votes. According to the Cook Political report, Hillary Clinton`s popular vote lead stands at 1,001,616 votes and millions of ballots are still being counted. By some estimates, Clinton`s lead could grow to more than 2 million. That`s far greater than Nixon`s lead in 1968, greater than JFK`s narrow lead when he won in 1960. So no wonder someone is feeling a little insecure about the popular vote margins. President-elect Trump tweeting out this morning, if the election were based on total popular vote I would have campaigned in New York, Florida and California and won even bigger and more easily."

Adding, the electoral college is actually genius in that it brings all states, including the smaller one, into play. Campaigning is much different."

It`s not a terrible point. It`s true. And things probably would be differently if it was run differently.

The president-elect didn`t always feel this way, though. How he used to feel about the electoral college versus popular vote is Thing Two in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: To quote an epic election night tweet storm, "he lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election. The phony electoral college made a laughing stock out of our nation. The loser won. Our country is now in serious and unprecedented trouble like never before. The electoral college is a disaster for out democracy."

Those are all quotes from one Donald J. Trump, some of which have since been deleted but all of which appeared on his Twitter feed late on election night 2012 after the network called the election for Barack Obama even though Mitt Romney was still leading by a couple hundred thousand votes in the popular vote totals with about two-thirds of the votes counted.

He went on to lose the popular vote by nearly 5 million votes, but while Romney was still slightly ahead, Donald Trump declared the electoral college a disaster for democracy.

Four years later after he himself won the electoral college he called it genius, though given that Trump also maintains he would have won even bigger and more easily without an electoral college if the election was decided on the popular vote alone and he`d campaigned to win that instead.

Given that sentiment, surely President-elect Trump will throw his wholehearted support behind Senator Barbara Boxer`s new bill to abolish the electoral college in favor of the popular vote.


HAYES: Did you hear Denzel Washington endorse Donald Trump? The shocking news Monday, especially for Denzel Washington, that`s because the fake news story was shared over 22,000 times on Facebook by a slew of fraudulent websites posing as news organization. The publicist for Denzel Washington confirmed to BBC today the story is 100% complete fabrication.

When we talk about fake news, we`re not talking about fringe websites pushing an agenda or distorting information, we`re talking about actual fake websites made to look and sound like news outlets posting completely fabricated stories.

Take for instance this story that made it way around Facebook just days before the election. FBI agent suspected in Hillary email leaks found dead in apparent murder-suicide.

It was posted on a fake site called The Denver Guardian, which has also posted fake stories claiming President Obama issued Clinton a blanket pardon. All of that is not true.

Or that Islam studies was added to the Common Core curriculum, also not true.

If you go to the website, every other link takes you to an error page. And it claims to be headquartered by this tree in Denver in a parking lot to the right of an abandoned building.

Now Facebook and other media companies are facing questions about their role in spreading this kind of disinformation. After the break, I`ll be joined by a former Facebook employee who says the problem maybe bigger than Mark Zuckerberg wants to admit. That`s next.


HAYES: All right, we`ve got some strange breaking news at this hour. The president-elect of the United States Donald Trump going to eat a steak here in Manhattan. You can see him entering the room there.

The reason this is news -- it`s not news that he went to do it -- the news is that he broke the so-called protective pool. There`s a pool in place for the president of the United States and also the president-elect. And the norm and institution of it is that they cover the doings of the most powerful person in the world -- in this case the second most powerful person in the world or about to be. So, that if a crisis were to happen at any point there is a certain transparency and accessibility.

We know that when the president-elect first made his trip to the White House, he broke that tradition with the protective pool. And here he is breaking the tradition again, essentially escaping the protective pool, going into the motorcade to go get a steak.

At one level you can understand why you want to get a steak without the press around. But the protective pool is there for a reason. It`s a means by which the American public and the media have their eyes essentially on the leader of the free world at all times more or less when he could be doing anything in his official business.

It seems like they`re making an early departure from that tradition and maybe the first of many.

Now, since the election, Facebook, the largest social media network in the world, has been criticized for allowing an influx of fake political news -- made up stories such as the Pope endorsing Donald Trump, which shared hundreds of thousands of time, despite being entirely false.

Last week, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg said it was a pretty crazy idea that Facebook fake news helped Donald Trump win. That`s provoked some backlash, including as reported by BuzzFeed from renegade Facebook employees who formed a task force to battle fake news. One saying, and honestly, what`s crazy is for Zuckerberg to come out and dismiss it like that when he knows and those of us at the company know that fake news ran wild on our platform during the entire campaign season.

Yesterday, Facebook clarified a policy that fake news sites aren`t allowed on its advertising network saying our team will continue to closely vet all prospective publishers and monitor existing ones to ensure compliance.

What`s unclear is whether that`s enough to curtail the spread of fake news or if Facebook believes they should even have a role monitoring this type of content.

Zuckerberg wrote in a post over the weekend, I believe we must be extremely cautious about becoming arbiters of truth ourselves.

Joining me now, former Facebook employee Antonio Garcia Martinez, he was Facebook`s first product manager for ad targeting, worked at the company during the 2012 election, also author of the book "Chaos Monkeys: Obscene Fortune and Random Failure in Silicon Valley."

All right, you guys saw this developing. What did it look from the inside? What were the concerns as you watched this new kind of genre of viral totally fabricated stories go wild through the Facebook platform?

ANTONIO GARCIA MARTINEZ, FRM. FACEBOOK EMPLOYEE: Well, you know, in 2012, the fake news thing wasn`t as big a factor.

But the reality that Facebook could actually throw an election has been well known for years. I mean, we used to joke internally -- and of course it was only a joke, but if Facebook, for example, only showed those little reminders to vote that you see inside Facebook, if it only showed it to a certain subset of counties and certain swing states, it could totally throw the election, right?

So, this is a well known thing that Facebook has known about and been aware of for years now. And so it`s a little bit weird that Zuck is acting surprised in 2016 that it could possibly have influenced the election.

HAYES: I mean, if 44 percent of results get their news from Facebook, I cannot tell you how many stories I`ve heard -- people I`ve interviewed, people I`ve talked, people -- other journalists have talked to talk about the centrality of this platform. It`s the biggest most important media platform in the world right now and it`s exercising essentially zero standards over its content.

MARTINEZ: Yeah, I mean, look, here`s the real hypocrisy of it. Facebook has hundreds of sales people with a huge office in Washington, D.C. and they are literally going to tell political advertisers, look, Facebook is the most influential platform in the world. We will win you an election and then Zuck turns around and says, no, no, no, no there`s no possibly way that Facebook can influence the election.

I mean, it`s really disingenuous of him to sort of claim this. And I think on the face of it really false.

HAYES: Is there something they can do. I mean, I understand his desire to not create essentially create an editorial infrastructure, although I think ultimately if you want my prediction, they will get sucked into doing just that because of this issue. But he doesn`t want to do that.

But it does seem like there`s low hanging fruit here. There is a genre, it`s essentially a kind of spam or a Nigerian email scam, it`s one of those things that gets thrown off in the maelstrom of the internet where people exploit a vulnerability. It does seem Facebook has got the engineers and the smarts to stamp this out.

MARTINEZ: Yeah, I mean, look the immediate reaction after Zuck says hey only 1 percent of content is fake. The next question is, well, why didn`t you just delete it? If you can actually hone in on the 1 percent, why didn`t just...

HAYES: If you know what it is.

MARTINEZ: Why didn`t you just get rid of it?

I mean here`s the bigger story about media, right. For years, companies like Google and Facebook have hidden behind the excuse that, look, we just use math. We don`t have the position of an editorship function, right. We don`t decide what we show you, it`s just math. We optimize for engagement. We show you stuff that we know you are going to -- comment and like on and that`s it. And I think when the stakes become American democracy, that excuse just isn`t good enough. And as you just said, I think in the future they will have to assume those responsibilities of editorship because they are kind of a media company, they`re not just a tech company.

HAYES: Yeah, we should note that SnapChat has done that, right. I mean, SnapChat is a platform, too, but they`ve actually hired some editorial side employees largely I think because of dealing with this issue.

MARTINEZ: Right. I think the problem there is that culture of responsibility of engagement with your readership is really foreign to the culture engineering first culture of Facebook, and there`s -- I think they`re kind of allergic to becoming sort of The New York Times for the world.

HAYES: It`s terrifying to them, but it turns out when you build a platform with a billion people on it, you get some responsibility. Antonio Garcia Martinez, thank you for your time.


HAYES: All right, that is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening again, Rachel.